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• WT:OR
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Recent edits

If people want to make substantive changes, could they please propose them here first? SlimVirgin 02:16, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

What about that change makes it substantive? It's a great effort to remove a giant block of needless text that has no substantive content. Frankly, it's rather confusing, and belongs in an essay. "Here comes the original synthesis" indeed. If you don't have an objection beyond "you can't change anything until you check if someone can think of an objection at the talk page", then just don't revert.    M   02:36, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

It's an excellent example of WP:SYNTH, you'll need to find consensus to either remove it or replace it. Dreadstar ☥ 02:41, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

It would have still been easily accessible through a link at the end of the first paragraph of SYNTH in this version of WP:NOR, until it was removed from the main part of Misplaced Pages:No original research/Examples very recently by this edit. --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:54, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Rich Farmbrough's points ("Remove the Smith Jones example per WP:POL because one example is enough. Also it is an example discussing sourcing which can confuse") are perfectly valid. What exactly does it illustrate that isn't already clear, and which justifies 4 extra paragraphs and 300 extra words? I can't see anything, but if you do please let us know.    M   02:51, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

These are excellent and longstanding examples. I can't imagine the policy would be better off by removing them; quite the opposite, in fact. Also, I see no consensus for making these major changes to longstanding policies. Jayjg 23:43, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Jayjg. JN466 00:20, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

The Smith-Jones example is an example of bad logic. It doesn't serve to show that synthesis to prove a point is improper in Misplaced Pages (I think such synthesis is improper), it just shows how bad logic can be misused to "prove" something that it doesn't prove. We moderns are at a disadvantage when it comes to logic: we aren't educated in the various forms of syllogism nor in the various logical fallacies. It seems to me to be a grave error to use an example of bad logic as a claimed example of why synthesis in general is improper. If the use of logic is appropriate for a topic then I suggest that any proper synthesis that helps further understanding within that topic is not just valid but is desirable. "Proper" synthesis would be synthesis that follows valid logic and which is based on well-accepted premises. I can appreciate that some would think this can go to far. I'd welcome examples that show "going too far" (with the provision that the example not really be an example of invalid logic masquerading as valid logic.) Minasbeede (talk) 14:39, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, what makes this synthetic is the use of disperate sources (neither of which supports the conclusion) to back the logic (whether faulty or not). The correct/incorrect use of logic is a seperate issue. If the conclusion was cited to a reliable source (one that used the same sources to reach the conclusion), it would still be faulty logic, but it would no longer be a WP:SYNT vio. Blueboar (talk) 17:56, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

As Blueboar points out, the Smith/Jones example shows the use of reliable sources to synthesize an argument not present in any of the sources. It happens all the time on Misplaced Pages, which is why a good example like this is needed to point out why it is against policy to do this kind of synthesis. Jayjg 21:56, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps someone here can give the link to a diff where they, or anyone else, have used the Smith/Jones example to clarify SYNTH for another wikipedian. Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 07:14, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Bob, I believe you've tried to remove this example earlier this year, and there was no consensus for doing so, after very lengthy discussions on the topic. Has something changed since then? Jayjg 07:06, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if this is a good example. Does it need to be here? Can it be stated just as well in three sentences? Could someone please state what rule it is supposed to illustrate? For example, the rule "don't vandalize" might have the example "Jones posts swears and deletes large blocks of content, so Smith temporarily blocks her". What exactly is the rule behind this section?    M   21:43, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

"No original research" is a policy that is difficult to understand, so examples are required to clarify. The policy on vandalism, a concept actually much easier to understand, is filled with examples of what is and isn't vandalism. A more comparable policy is WP:NPOV; not surprisingly, it also contains examples, see for example Misplaced Pages:ASF#A_simple_formulation, Misplaced Pages:ASF#Article_naming, WP:GEVAL. Jayjg 07:06, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I would question your first sentence that implies it is a good example. I don't know of any evidence from actual use, that would indicate that it is a good example, or that any of the people here have found it good enough to use in their discussions with less knowledgeable wikipedians, to help clarify Synth. And if someone here did use it, were they successful in clarifying Synth, with the Smith/Jones example, for another wikipedian. That's why I made the request above, " Perhaps someone here can give the link to a diff where they, or anyone else, have used the Smith/Jones example to clarify SYNTH for another wikipedian. Thanks." --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:13, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Bob, pointing to WP:SYNTH is enough, since it contains the examples. Jayjg 07:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

"What exactly is the rule behind this section?"

User:M, to answer your question directly "What exactly is the rule behind this section?", there is no agreed upon rule. Although, several attempts have been made in the past to establish a clear definition of the synthesis rule, no consensus has been reached. However, most users here have agreed on a set of examples that serve to illustrate the rule: .

1. Everyone agrees that:

Editors should build an article by summarizing the sources available on the topic of the article. Any information added should therefore be based on reliable sources that present this information in direct connection with the article subject.

2. However, some find that definition too restrictive and deem it necessary to add an exception:

In some cases, supplementary information from generic sources that cover a broader subject area than the specific article topic may be deemed to add value to an article, in order to clarify places, people or things mentioned in the article (WP:PCR). For example, an editor might want to add a detail from a reliable source that describes the historical context in which the subject of an article lived, even though the cited source does not mention the article subject.

3. Among those who agree with that exception (2), there are some who believe that the exception itself requires an exception:

Any information that advances a position or point of view with respect to the article topic must be based on a source that presents this information in direct connection with the article topic.

4. And among those who agree with this exception (3) to the exception (2), there are some who believe that it also requires an exception:

Any information that advances a position or point of view with respect to the article topic must be based on a source that presents this information in direct connection with the article topic, unless the information represents a mainstream view which is contrasted with a fringe or pseudo-scientific claim within the article. According to WP:PARITY, if a claim is fringe, it will likely not have been made in a reliable source; so we can reference a blog or a website that criticizes that claim; we don't necessarily have to find a reliable source that debunks it, which is sometimes hard to find. In those exceptional cases where a fringe claim is published in a reliable source without any reliable rebuttals or when a fringe claim is made in a non-reliable source without any rebuttals at all, we can rely on WP:IAR and add a rebuttal. Editors should, however, resist the temptation to add their own explanation of the discrepancy between the mainstream view and the fringe view. An unpublished synthesis or analysis should not be presented for the readers' "benefit". Let the readers draw their own conclusions after seeing the related facts in juxtaposition.

I hope this is helpful. Cheers, Phenylalanine (talk) 03:12, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Keeping in mind, of course, that 3. is basic policy (not an exception to an exception) while 4. is a clear and obvious violation of WP:NOR, and there are no "special exceptions" for WP:V just because we really, really, want to rebut a fringe argument. As has been said many times before, if David Icke claims that George W. Bush and Queen Elizabeth II are reptilian humanoids, we don't bother to counter by saying "However, Bush and Elizabeth are, in fact, fully mammalian." Jayjg 07:06, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Indeed... and if we did add such a counter statement, two minutes after adding it the line would look like this:

• "However, Bush and Elizabeth are, in fact, fully mammalian. <citation needed>"

(and good luck finding a reliable source that actually supports that). :>) Blueboar (talk) 20:46, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Why not replace the examples with this?    M   20:10, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Because this is too simple an example, and suffers from WP:V issues as well. Jayjg 01:30, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Just a general comment on the use of the phrase "too simple an example". Please be careful not to exclude the interests of beginning editors who aren't familiar with the concept of Original SYN. --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:13, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH at 23:22, 27 August 2009

Below is essentially the same new version of WP:SYNTH that was in WP:NOR on 23:22, 27 August 2009, which was reverted. The examples that are currently in WP:SYNTH would have still been easily accessible through a link at the end of the first paragraph of SYNTH in this new version at that time. This improvement to WP:SYNTH was possible since there was a page created a month and a half ago that contained the examples at the time when the new version below was added and during the month before.

== Synthesis of published material that advances a position ==

Shortcuts

• WP:SYN
• WP:SYNTH
• WP:SYNTHESIS

Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to reach conclusion C. This would be a synthesis of published material that advances a new position, and that constitutes original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. For examples see Original synthesis at Misplaced Pages:No original research/Examples.

Carefully summarizing or rephrasing source material without changing its meaning is not synthesis—it is good editing. Best practice is to write Misplaced Pages articles by taking material from different reliable sources on the topic and putting those claims on the page in your own words, with each claim attributable to a source that explicitly makes that claim.

--Bob K31416 (talk) 19:32, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

No comments? What a shame. This is an excellent version that is a size that makes for better reading and communication. All that was done was to replace the bulky samples with a link to them on another page. I think it is a mistake to have most of WP:SYNTH filled with examples since it obscures the main idea of the section. --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:49, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

United Nations and synthesis

Observing the example here about the United Nations, I went to look at the real article. The first sentence in the body of that article is: "Following in the wake of the failed League of Nations (1919-1946), which the United States never joined, the United Nations was established in 1945 to maintain international peace and promote cooperation in solving international economic, social and humanitarian problems. ". This single sentence seems to contain numerous inferences of a similar sort. Some points:

1. Did the LoN fail because the USA did not join it? (Note that the USSR also did not join until too late.)
2. Did the LoN fail because the UN superseded it? (Note that the dates overlap.)
3. Is this a case of WP:SYN? (Note that there are no inline citations.)

My impression is that WP:SYN is currently a counsel of perfection of little practical value. I suggest that you try deconstructing a real article such as United Nations and seeing if you can make it a model of what you're trying to achieve. It would be better to point to such a real worked example than an artificial one. Colonel Warden (talk) 22:49, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

This is simple to resolve... the fact that the US did not join the Leage of Nations is a bit of historical detail that should not even be in the first sentence of the UN article. It might even be too detailed to merit mentioning in the lede paragraph. The first sentence of any article should simply tell readers what the subject is. I would suggst something like "The United Nations is an international organization, established in 1945, with the goal of maintaining international peace and promoting cooperation in slolving international economic, social and humanitarian problems." (and even this may be overly wordy). Blueboar (talk) 23:08, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Clarification of OR for combining objective sources

Hi everyone. I have an issue with a guideline listed on the College and University Article Guidelines that deals with OR, and I thought some people here may want to weigh in. To summarize, there is a guideline that states "Refactoring rankings (71st nationally according to the source, but 2nd among colleges in the state) to boost the score constitutes original research and is not permitted, and I feel that it is not actually OR. This is a very precise, technical argument I'm making: I agree completely that many statements like the one quoted are written to advance a point of view or agenda, and thus are not permissible under WP:NPOV; however, I contend that the combination of two objective, verifiable pieces of information if presented in a neutral way is not OR and is therefore permissible. For example:

• The US News national ranking list includes each university's ranking and each university's US state. If I sorted the list by state and wrote in an article: "According to US News, University X is the highest-ranked national university in State X," I don't see how that is not inherently verifiable and therefore not OR.
• Similarly, the US Census publishes its data in a large list of incorporated places (cities, towns). It is common practice to review this data and sort by state, allowing us to write "Milwaukee is the largest city in the state of Wisconsin." The Census may not publish a list of cities broken down by state, but one can make an objectively verifiable statement by combining the verifiable population figure with the verifiable state in which the city lies.
• One more example: The Forbes list of wealthiest Americans lists, in order, the richest people in America. If we looked at the list and verified the gender of each person listed, we could state that "Person X is the wealthiest woman in America, according to the Forbes list." Again, I contend this is useful information and is not OR.

So I want to make clear what I am asking: In the opinion of you, the editors and admins interested in OR policy, is an objective and neutrally-worded statement that is based on a combination of two objective and verifiable pieces of information OR (and if so, should it be)? I highlight the "objective and neutral" part because I agree that the same info, if worded in a way to promote an agenda, is POV (and likely COI). -Nick 21:00, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I think what you are talking about does qualify as OR. In essence, by refactoring a ranking list on your own, noticing something, and commenting upon it in Misplaced Pages... you are making Misplaced Pages the first place of publication for that information. You are noticing something that no published source has commented upon. That is OR. Blueboar (talk) 22:57, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Primary sources

So what is the problem with primary sources? It would seem to me that a primary source in many situations would be the best citation, rather than secondary sources that more often than not, have something to gain from the publishing of information. Sephiroth storm (talk) 19:26, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Please note that this policy does not tell editors not to use primary sources (in fact, the policy explicitly says that you can use them). It tells them to use caution when using them. You are correct in thinking that in many circumstances a primary source is going to be the best source... However, they are also the easiest to misuse, whether on purpose or inadvertantly. In other words, a primary source is a problem when it is being misused to support Original Research... And in those situations the problem is the Original Research not the source.Blueboar (talk) 22:43, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

The problem with primary sources is that they are subject to interpretation, but there is a tendency to use them to back up your interpretation, which may not be everyone else's. Two primary sources that are habitually misused in this way are the US Constitution and the Bible. For example many articles about smaller Christian groups often cite Bible verses in support of their views, neglecting the differing interpretations that other groups place on them. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:54, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

RFC - Replace examples in WP:SYNTH with link to examples

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. Within 24 hours, this page will be added to the following list: Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Please comment on the following proposed version for WP:synth. It differs from the present version only by replacing the two examples currently in the section with a link to a page that contains the two examples. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:42, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

== Synthesis of published material that advances a position ==

Shortcuts

• WP:SYN
• WP:SYNTH
• WP:SYNTHESIS

Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to reach conclusion C. This would be a synthesis of published material that advances a new position, and that constitutes original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. For examples see Original synthesis at Misplaced Pages:No original research/Examples.

Carefully summarizing or rephrasing source material without changing its meaning is not synthesis—it is good editing. Best practice is to write Misplaced Pages articles by taking material from different reliable sources on the topic and putting those claims on the page in your own words, with each claim attributable to a source that explicitly makes that claim.

Comment of requester: This is an improved version that has a size that makes for better reading and communication and has a link to the examples, instead of having them in the section. I think it is a mistake to have most of WP:SYNTH filled with examples since it takes up too much space compared to the other more important parts and obscures them. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:42, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I like Bob's idea. He makes the rule easy to understand: thus, easy to follow! :-) --Uncle Ed (talk) 18:45, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose, the WP:NOR/Examples page was never meant to replace the examples in WP:NOR. As I stated here, the reason for that is because I believe it’s best to keep a couple of main examples of synth right in the policy. Unlike subpages, main Policy pages are watched closely so there's less chance of having poor or misleading examples added. I also think it's good to have a couple of examples right in the policy, because it helps give direct substance to the concepts outlined therein - subpages can help expand on those, but aren't necessary to the core understanding of the policy. Therefore, I oppose Bob's proposed changes. Dreadstar ☥ 19:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Please note that the link is to a page in the history of the examples page so it can't be altered. The only way to change it is by going through WP:NOR to link to another page in the examples page history that contains the desired changes. This is somewhat serendipidity since I made this link because you recently removed one of the examples over there, so I linked to a page that has all of the examples. Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:51, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. I oppose replacing the examples with a link. We need one page, the policy page, that people can look at to find out what OR is, without having to visit yet another page too. SlimVirgin 01:22, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. Some significant percentage of people who would not follow the link if the examples were removed, will read the examples if they remain on the page, and concrete examples are a teaching tool that makes accessible what abstract description may fail to convey. In addition to the see also link, the examples section can have a link at the the end not unlike: "See Misplaced Pages:No original research/Examples for additional examples of improper original synthesis", but the few on the page should remain. The examples are not filling the page, obscuring other points. It's a short list that I don't think places much strain on those visiting. Moreover, those who would find reading through them too much to handle are, in any event, exactly the types who aren't likely to visit a linked satellite page.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:04, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose to moving examples to a sub-page as examples should add clarity to what may be a confusing policy point. I believe it's important for key examples to remain in-line rather than having user's jump to another page. For example, someone is likely to be confused by the A, B, C stuff in WP:SYNTH. The examples should then be clear enough that the reader then understands A, B, C. --Marc Kupper|talk 07:34, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. Examples like this are common and illuminating in policy pages. These examples are particularly good ones. Sub-pages are not well watched, and may fill up with poor examples. Jayjg 01:32, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

FYI, the link in WP:SYNTH is to a page in the history of the examples page, so it can't be altered without going through WP:NOR to link to another page in the history with the desired changes. What do you think of the alternate proposal below? --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:02, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Alternate proposal (only reorganizes within section and keeps examples)

Re Fuhghettaboutit's comment: "Moreover, those who would find reading through them too much to handle are, in any event, exactly the types who aren't likely to visit a linked satellite page." - If they found the more complex example too much to handle and stopped reading, they would miss the important last paragraph of the section which comes after the examples. How would all of you feel about putting the last paragraph after the first paragraph and then have the examples follow?

== Synthesis of published material that advances a position ==

Shortcuts

• WP:SYN
• WP:SYNTH
• WP:SYNTHESIS

Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to reach conclusion C. This would be a synthesis of published material that advances a new position, and that constitutes original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article.

Carefully summarizing or rephrasing source material without changing its meaning is not synthesis—it is good editing. Best practice is to write Misplaced Pages articles by taking material from different reliable sources on the topic and putting those claims on the page in your own words, with each claim attributable to a source that explicitly makes that claim.

A simple example of original synthesis:

The UN's stated objective is to maintain international peace and security, but since its creation there have been 160 wars throughout the world.

Although no conclusion is drawn and both facts are true, the sentence implies that the UN has failed to maintain world peace. If no reliable source has combined the material in this way, it constitutes original research. It would be easy to imply the opposite using the same material, illustrating how, when no source is provided, facts can easily be manipulated:

The UN's stated objective is to maintain international peace and security, and since its creation there have been only 160 wars throughout the world.

The following is a more complex example of an original synthesis. It is based on an actual Misplaced Pages article about a dispute between two authors, here called Smith and Jones:

Smith claimed that Jones committed plagiarism by copying references from another author's book. Jones responded that it is acceptable scholarly practice to use other people's books to find new references.

Now comes the original synthesis:

If Jones did not consult the original sources, this would be contrary to the practice recommended in the Harvard Writing with Sources manual, which requires citation of the source actually consulted. The Harvard manual does not call violating this rule "plagiarism". Instead, plagiarism is defined as using a source's information, ideas, words, or structure without citing them.

The first paragraph was properly sourced. The second paragraph was original research because it expressed the editor's opinion that, given the Harvard manual's definition of plagiarism, Jones did not commit it. To make the second paragraph consistent with this policy, a reliable source would be needed that specifically comments on the Smith and Jones dispute and makes the same point about the Harvard manual and plagiarism. In other words, that precise analysis must have been published by a reliable source in relation to the topic before it can be published in Misplaced Pages by a contributor.

--Bob K31416 (talk) 22:41, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

• Not only do I think that change does no damage, I think it reads better, i.e., I support that change.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:06, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

• Support alternate proposal to move the last paragraph up to just below the lead. The next line can then be changed from "A simple example" to "A simple example of synthesis". --Marc Kupper|talk 08:34, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

• It was like that before someone moved it, as I recall without discussion (though maybe I missed the discussion, or have forgotten it). SlimVirgin 08:44, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Does that mean you would like to implement the alternate proposal? --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:48, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't see what difference it makes either way. SlimVirgin 22:07, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Does that mean you oppose the alternate proposal? --Bob K31416 (talk) 23:30, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH - why does this section exist?

The edit war over the WP:SYNTH examples reminds me that I’ve always been confused by WP:SYNTH and why it exists as part of policy. The section starts out with “Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.” I'm thinking “Why isn't this reduced to a more general rule such as 'Do not reach a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources?'” What's special about synthesis of multiple sources that's not covered under the more general rule?

My confusion deepens when I see the the first example. It's a single sentence about the UN and 160 wars that's entirely out of context and seems to bear no relationship at all to “RS A, RS B, synthesis C” that was used in the section lead.

The second example has paragraph with two sentences that presumably are based on one, maybe two RS. It just says “The first paragraph was properly sourced.” It’s a better example in that it shows sourced material followed by a WP:OR conclusion. However, I don’t see this as a direct example and clarification of “RS A, RS B, synthesis C.” It is a good example of “RS A, synthesis or conclusion B” but not “RS A and RS B synthesized into C.”

I'm guessing the WP:SYN section got added as someone must have wikilawyered their way around the more general "Even with well-sourced material, however, if you use it out of context or to advance a position that is not directly and explicitly supported by the source used, you as an editor are engaging in original research; see below." (the below links to WP:SYN). --Marc Kupper|talk 07:56, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, no... the SYN section was developed quite a while before the line you quote was added. The section was created to tell editors not to include what they see as logical conclusions... conclusions based upon reliable sources, but not actually made by any of the sources they cite. The examples are there to show that this is not always easy to detect (in part because the conclusions often are logical). We probably should have called the section "No original logic" instead of "Synthesis". Blueboar (talk) 17:24, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Even if Mark Kupper's guess was off the mark, his point is valid. Renaming it to "No original logic" sounds sensible, but doesn't quite address his point. The general 'Do not reach a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources' would cover "No original logic" too. -- Fullstop (talk) 19:24, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I think we could easily remove the A+B=C sentences. That's sometimes what SYN is, but not invariably. SlimVirgin 23:06, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, that helped a lot. While it seems redundant I now see that it's necessary to have a section like WP:SYN as there are some who will argue that logical conclusions are not "original" research.

The use of the word "synthesis" still bugs me a little but I found it is correct. It turns out there's a lesser used definition of synthesis. It's in the World Book Dictionary as the very last entry and is "according to Thomas Hobbes, Isaac Newton, and others, deductive reasoning." Thus "synthesis" can cover an editor derived conclusion or deduction, even if the article is based on one RS. I can't say I'm comfortable with needing to use a definition that only shows up in the largest dictionaries but I can't think of a better word at the moment. I'm going to follow this with the current lead paragraph, save the edit, and then immediately edit the lead to a proposed version. Use the history/diff to see the changes.

Do not combine material from one or more sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to reach conclusion C, regardless of how logical it may seem. This would be a synthesis of published material that advances a new position, and that constitutes original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same conclusion in relation to the topic of the article.

The tweaks are minor but would then cover synthesis from one source. I changed that last "argument" as while it's the correct word it seems to link better with the earlier use of "conclusion" in the paragraph. --Marc Kupper|talk 08:23, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

What do you think of getting rid of A+B=C? SlimVirgin 08:21, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

It's late for me and I can't think of a clean way to replace it. I like how it's showing that we have a reliable source(s), synthesized conclusion, and then restating that it should not be done. I'll sleep on it and will see if a wording comes to mind that has less emphasis on synthesizing multiple sources vs. deductions or conclusions from a single source. --Marc Kupper|talk 08:29, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I think I see the problem and hopefully the solution or the road down which the solution lies. The focus in the present language is wrong. We don't care whether material is from one source or multiple sources for purposes of original research, but we do care that items of information are being combined to form a conclusion regardless of whether the data (and never the datum) is taken from a single source or multiple sources. The information is always going to be multiple items thereof and that's where the plural comes in. The restatement above goes some way to clear up up but still keeps the focus in the latter half on the plurality of sources rather than on the information in the sources. I think this resolves the problem (among other tweaks, note the changes from by sources to in sources)

Do not combine items of information (facts, opinion, etc.) from a source or sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly reached in the source or sources. Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published in a reliable source, and B is published in a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to reach conclusion C. This would be a synthesis of published material that advances a new position, and that constitutes original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if one or more reliable sources have published the same deductive chain and result in relation to the topic of the article.

--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:02, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

(Here's my 2 cents.) Perhaps the simplest way is to just modify the first sentence of the first paragraph in WP:SYNTH:

== Synthesis of published material that advances a position ==

Shortcuts

• WP:SYN
• WP:SYNTH
• WP:SYNTHESIS

Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated by a ny of the source s. Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to reach conclusion C. This would be a synthesis of published material that advances a new position, and that constitutes original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article.

In this way, we remove the implication that this applies only to the case where the two facts are in different sources. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:34, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Here's a version that does not use A, B, C. I also moved the concluding paragraph up and reformulated the first example so that it shows the source sentence first and then the synthesis.

== Synthesis of published material that advances a position ==

Shortcuts

• WP:SYN
• WP:SYNTH
• WP:SYNTHESIS

Care must be taken to not form arguments or conclusions that are not explicitly stated by a source. A synthesis of published material that advances a new position constitutes original research. Stating an argument or conclusion in an article is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same position in relation to the topic of the article.

Carefully summarizing or rephrasing source material without changing its meaning is not synthesis—it is good editing. Best practice is to write Misplaced Pages articles by taking material from different reliable sources on the topic and putting those claims on the page in your own words, with each claim attributable to a source that explicitly makes that claim.

example commented out per feedback.--Marc Kupper|talk 10:03, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I did not include the second example here. If we use it, then does not need rewording as it's an example of a deliberate synthesis where the first example could be accidental but it also shows why citing the sources is valuable. --Marc Kupper|talk 09:05, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I think we need to retain the point about combining multiple sources, which is the essence of SYN. Also, you changed the example. Could we please not involve the examples in discussing the way the introduction is written?

As the intro to that section is written at the moment, what do you see as the problem with it? SlimVirgin 09:09, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I know it's not perfect talk page etiquette but I've commented the modified example out from my previous post. Using strikeout on the large block was too distracting. We can include plural sources by replacing "a source" in the first sentence with "sources." Would that work? One thing I don't like about my own rewording is that it's does not have a strong statement about "logical conclusions are OR." That got weakened as I was trying to work in both synthesized arguments and conclusions. --Marc Kupper|talk 10:03, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I like your latest proposal. I actually complained about the current wording of the policy over a year ago; but no luck changing it back them. Asking that "A and B, therefore C" come exactly from one publication/source is unreasonable. In fact, this particular requirement is ignored by large swaths of our Mathematics articles for a good reason. By observing the current policy you'd have to commit a copyright violation (wrt. derivative work) by copying entire lines of reasoning "as is" since you're technically allowed to make only superficial wording changes. Your proposal is much more reasonable, in that A, B, and C may come from different sources as long as all are germane to the article's topic. I also like that you put it in words, instead of syllogisms. Pcap ping 15:41, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

More problematic, is that some make a synthesis from different sources that use the same terminology with different meanings. Something like A=>B (source 1), B=>C (source 2), therefore A=>C (no citation), when the two sources don't mean the same thing by B. I've not seen this often, but I've seen some occurrences. Might be an example worth adding in the examples part, but it might be overkill as well given that it's rare. Your proposed phasing still prohibits this practice. Pcap ping 15:41, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I think an example is important as some people have difficulty understanding the description of synthesis. Chillum 15:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree that one, or even more examples are needed, but the defitintion of "syntehsis" here should not be given in syllogism, since you can't cover all aspects that way. Pcap ping 15:51, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Comparison

I personally found the A, B, C wording to make the concept very clear. While the new wording does cover the basic concept I don't think it explains it as well as the old wording. The idea of synthesis has been very difficult for some editors to understand in my history of dealing with people. Perhaps it will not be an issue with examples. Chillum 16:06, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

The old wording is confusing because the A-B-C part actually imposes an additional restiction not found in the 1st sentence of the current policy. "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." only implies that you need a citation for each of A, B and C; it does not imply that you need a citation for "A and B implies C". The difference is significant. Pcap ping 16:14, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

By the way, the new wording (or just the 1st sentence from the old), does allow syllogisms like: "The sky is blue" (cite 1), "the Sun is hot" (cite 2), therefore "an elephant is a mammal" (cite3); you can easily "fix" this (as a syllogism, not as a meaningful article) by replacing therefore with and. But I don't think the "SYNT" part of the policy was meant to prohibit Misplaced Pages:NONSENSE. That's a different issue to me than "improper synthesis". Pcap ping 16:33, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

My point here is that even the current WP:SYNT doesn't prohibit this article: "The sky is blue (cite 1). The Sun is hot (cite 2). An elephant is a mammal (cite3)." because no attempt to present one statement as a conclusion of others is made. All statements are properly sourced, so it's not WP:OR. Still this "article" is an WP:INDISCRIMINATE collection of information, which we don't want here. But the purpose of this policy isn't to prohibit such nonsensical article in here; there's another policy for that, which I've just linked to. So, the proposed change in wording separates the concerns, i.e. makes the policies more orthogonal. Pcap ping 17:20, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Huh... perhaps it is to early in the morning for me. I will re-read this section later. Chillum 16:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Looking at the comparison, I do find the original version much easier to understand. Is it perfect, no... but I think it does a better job of explaining what the issue is than the proposal. Blueboar (talk) 17:18, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with Blueboar, the current (original) version is better at explaining the issue and is easier to understand. Dreadstar ☥ 22:02, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I think I prefer the original too. The proposal doesn't clearly address the idea that each part is sourced correctly, but that the combination is OR. Marc: what is it about the current introduction to SYN that you find problematic? SlimVirgin 00:33, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

SlimVirgin asks what I find problematic with the current introduction. I see that it needs extremely careful reading, pretty much at the wikilawyer level to understand it.

I believe it is beneficial to have a section of NOR that reinforces that the editor must not introduce unpublished arguments, conclusions, ideas, etc. in an article. It does not matter if those arguments/conclusions are constructed via analysis (or analysis), synthesis, fallacy, insanity, or some other method. I believe the first WP:SYN example is a good one as it shows how a factual statement from a source was modified into an argument.

I also believe it would be beneficial to remind editors to not include they see as logical conclusions... conclusions based upon reliable sources, but not actually made by any of the sources they cite. (this is from Blueboar 17:24, 3 September 2009 above)

I'm now starting to see that we should not use words like synthesis, analysis, fallacy, etc. in core policy. Policy should be accessible to a wide audience and needs to be as readable as possible. --Marc Kupper|talk 05:43, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

May I add to Marc's important remark about readability, when policy is discussed extensively here on this talk page, the terminology and concepts become familiar to the editors here. We should recognize that the typical reader of WP:NOR doesn't have that advantage. --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:20, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Prefer the original version, per Blueboar. --JN466 12:27, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

May I also add, in the original version the explanation of the concept of synth is split up. There's most of the explanation, then the examples, then the short remaining part of the explanation at the end, where it can get lost. Marc's version puts all of the explanation at the beginning before the examples. Even if you disagree with other aspects of Marc's proposal, surely you can at least agree with this simple improvement, which is the Alternate proposal in a previous section above. --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:49, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I also prefer the current version. Given the choices, it is clearer and more to the point. When running into WP:SYN situations, which is all too common, I find it useful to be able to point to the basic "if A and B are individually well sourced, it doesn't mean you can juxtapose them to advance a conclusion C from them, unless C is also well sourced, and all sources must refer to the specific subject." I would also add that conclusion C needs specific sourcing whether it is directly stated or just implied by juxtaposition. Crum375 (talk) 15:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Crum375, What do you think about the part of Marc's proposal that has the examples following the explanation of SYNTH? Would that simple change be acceptable to you, i.e. the change mentioned in my previous message and suggested in the Alternate proposal in a previous section above? It seems better than the current version because a small important part of the explanation doesn't get lost by being alone at the end of the WP:SYNTH section. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I think the current version, with the point about "summarizing existing sources is not OR" at the end is fine, but I don't see that order as crucial. I think the current UN example is too confusing as presented. Crum375 (talk) 15:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Crum375, I personally had the experience awhile back of not noticing the "summarizing existing sources is not OR" paragraph because of its position alone after the complex example. So it can go unnoticed in its current position. The way it's positioned, it looks like part of the explanation of the second example and can make the reading less smooth too. In what I experienced, I was checking WP:SYNTH for some info. I looked at the first paragraph and since the example was next, I figured only the example remained in the section and I stopped reading, since I wasn't interested in the example at that time. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:10, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I can live with it being higher up, though perhaps it could be shortened. This entire section is very wordy and confusing as it stands. Crum375 (talk) 16:20, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Re "This entire section is very wordy and confusing as it stands." - Ain't that the truth. I think it's due to the examples. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:17, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

The original version is superior, precisely because it provides these critical examples. Otherwise, as has been pointed out, people invariably say "but it's all sourced from reliable sources". I can't tell you how many times I've run into this problem; reliably sourced material being used to advance a position not found in any of the sources, or to make arguments on topics not actually addressed in the sources. If anything, we need more examples in the policy, not fewer. Jayjg 17:38, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that this section is probably the most difficult piece of Wiki-policy for the average editor to understand... not because we do a poor job of trying to explain it, but because the underlying concept is very complex. The line between source based research and sythesis is often blurred and hard for the average editor to figure out. I think the examples help. Blueboar (talk) 21:34, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Aye, you've said a true word there. JN466 21:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I was playing with some new wording, read WP:SYN again, and now it makes sense to me... The wording I was working on was "Any arguments, conclusions, ideas, etc. in an article must be explicitly stated in reliable sources. Developing a new position in an article, even if it is based on reliable sources, is original research. ¶Carefully summarizing or rephrasing source material without changing its meaning is good editing. Best practice is to write Misplaced Pages articles by taking material from different reliable sources on the topic and putting those claims on the page in your own words, with each claim attributable to a source that explicitly makes that claim." That will also cover OR ideas developed by methods other than synthesis such as what's used in the first example. --Marc Kupper|talk 07:58, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Best practice?

As long as we are discussing the wording... I would like us to take a look at the "Best practice" line... Experienced editors know what the line means, but to a novice editor it may not be at all clear where the line between "best practice editing" and "synthesis" lies. The problem is that it is quite possible to take "material from different reliable sources on the topic, and put those claims on the page in your own words, with each claim attributable to a source that explicitly makes that claim" and still form an improper synthesis.

Thinking about this... I think the problem might be resolved if we swap paragraphs... put the one about good editing and best practice first... and then warn editors about forming a synthetic statement. Using the current language (with a minimum of tweeking) it would look like this:

Original research is often introduced to articles through synthesis. Carefully summarizing or rephrasing source material without changing its meaning is not synthesis—it is good editing. Best practice is to write Misplaced Pages articles by taking material from different reliable sources on the topic and putting those claims on the page in your own words, with each claim attributable to a source that explicitly makes that claim.

Do not, however, combine material from multiple sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to reach conclusion C. This would be a synthesis of published material that advances a new position, and that constitutes original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article.

Then give the examples. I think this clarifies the distinction. Blueboar (talk) 13:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Yep. -- Fullstop (talk) 18:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I am concerned that this can still be misinterpreted. Remember the (real-life) example presented some weeks ago (included as the first example in WP:ORIGINALSYN) about the activist who had called for a boycott of a company. An editor then added material to the effect that the sales figures and share price of the company dropped after the activist's boycott call. Crucially, neither of these sources mentioned the activist, or linked the drop in sales and share price to the activist's actions.

I am concerned that the above wording does not explain clearly enough what was wrong about what the editor did, as its leading statement seems to describe just what he did. We have heard editors defending SYN in this manner before, using the same phrasing: "But I took material from different reliable sources on the topic and put those claims on the page in my own words, with each claim attributable to a source that explicitly makes that claim, just like you say. And I did not combine material from multiple sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Because I did not explicitly say it was the activist's actions that caused the drop in sales, I just presented the attested facts and left it to the reader to draw their own conclusions."

That "not guilty" argument is precisely wrong, and I fear this reversal of the wording may encourage editors to use it. --JN466 23:49, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm... I suggested that we reverse the paragraph order in part because I saw the current order encouraging exactly the same sort of error ... Perhaps the problem isn't the order... but that there is a flaw in our statement about best practice? Blueboar (talk) 02:01, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Original images and license

The section makes reference the "GFDL or another free license". Perhaps the reader should be directed to Misplaced Pages:Image use policy. I also think the Creative Commons should be explicitly mentioned. –droll  21:30, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not publish original research or original thought.

No matter how many sources or citations one includes in adding to content, the converse of the subject/headline is always true. (That is "Misplaced Pages does publish original research or original thought.") At some point there was original research and original thought. It is humanly impossible to publish otherwise. So the entire premise of "no original research" is a lie. And non-truth is currently supported by the verifiability policy. Then, neutral point of view is automatically violated as policy, due to human error in writing an outright lie and allowing its support. Is there any concensus here to correct the error of policy? Edward Palamar (talk) 12:23, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

"Original" applies only to the person adding text to Misplaced Pages; as long as the originality of thought is removed one step from WP (and of course considered reliable) then there's no violation. --MASEM (t) 12:28, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

One step, two steps - the actual publishing contains original thought. Why are the two uses of the word "original" not either placed in quotes and redefined, or have citations of their own, to make the sentence as printed a non-lie? Edward Palamar (talk) 12:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

To clarify... What we mean is that information appearing in Misplaced Pages should not be the original thought of the editor who adds it. To put it another way: Misplaced Pages should not be the original venue of publication for information (this last statement, or something similar, used to be in the policy, we should probably re-add it). If information is previously published elsewhere, it did not originate with the Wikipedian who added it; Misplaced Pages is not the original venue of publication. Blueboar (talk) 13:24, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Your second point is correct, but not necessarily the first. We do allow an editor to publish his original thought on Misplaced Pages if it has already been published in a reliable source elsewhere. So the point of originality, as you say, is that Misplaced Pages should not be the original publisher of the material. Crum375 (talk) 13:30, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

OK... I stand corrected. Information appearing in Misplaced Pages should not be the original thought of the edtior who adds it UNLESS it has been previously published elsewhere (in a reliable source). The rest stands.

What do people think about adding: Misplaced Pages should not be the original venue of publication for information? Blueboar (talk) 14:01, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that we do allow some types of original information, such as self-made drawings, diagrams, photos, audio or video recordings, etc. So it's not quite that strict. Crum375 (talk) 14:23, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

That's true. But let's face it. The term "original research" is a misnomer. What is meant is unpublished research or facts.

It's interesting that if it was properly named in the beginning, we would just as easily be talking about UR instead of OR, and there would be less confusion. --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:31, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Re: self-made drawings, diagrams, photos etc. Not quite... read the section on user-created images again... if the information presented in the drawing constitutes OR, we don't allow it. What we do allow is a user-created image that visually depicts information that has been reliably published elsewhere. It is a visual equivalent of an editor summarizing information from a reliable source into their own words. The image may be original... but the information is not. Blueboar (talk) 15:58, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

That may sound good in theory, but is not what happens in practice. Photos depict tons of new information not in any published text, and diagrams and drawings, or Wikipedian-made "computer renderings", have lots of unsourced details. You could start arguing about major issues, but the more minor ones are not worth the debating time and energy. As bottom line, all those allowed things introduce new material. Crum375 (talk) 16:31, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

It's definitely a problem. We've discussed maps of genetic distribution, where an editor may cherrypick from published source from different times, even using the sources incorrectly, and it's really hard to disentangle such maps. Dougweller (talk) 16:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure, identifying OR can sometimes be a problem. But the difficulty in identifying OR is not (and should not be) a license to violate NOR. -- Fullstop (talk) 18:47, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The boundaries of OR?

If I claim that 777 × 286 = 222222 without citing a source, is that "OR"? Michael Hardy (talk) 19:53, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Of course it isn't, if presented merely as a claim about arithmetic. We have a relatively well-established practice regarding the use of calculations such as that, and more complex ones as well. Did some more specific situation come up? — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, what if it's merely an algebraic identity that anyone can easily check in a few seconds, such as the following?

${\displaystyle {\begin{aligned}\left(a^{2}+b^{2}\right)\left(c^{2}+d^{2}\right)&{}=\left(ac-bd\right)^{2}+\left(ad+bc\right)^{2}\ \qquad \qquad (1)\\&{}=\left(ac+bd\right)^{2}+\left(ad-bc\right)^{2}.\qquad \qquad (2)\end{aligned}}}$

Or a trigonmetric identity, such as this?:

${\displaystyle \sec(\theta _{1}+\cdots +\theta _{n})={\frac {\sec \theta _{1}\cdots \sec \theta _{n}}{e_{0}-e_{2}+e_{4}-\cdots }}}$

where e_k is the kth-degree elementary symmetric polynomial in the n variables x_i = tan θ_i, i = 1, ..., n, and the number of terms in the denominator depends on n.

That one might take more than a minute, but it's just a secondary-school exercise. Michael Hardy (talk) 23:16, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I think OR using BASIC (grade school level) math... simple multiplication, division, addition and subtraction of numbers is OK. But I would draw the line there. If you have to use algebraic or trigonometric calculation (even if fairly simple) you need a source. Blueboar (talk) 02:07, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

No and yes. See WP:NOR#Routine_calculations. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:49, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The algebraic identity shown above is just a routine calculation of which there are too many to count in Misplaced Pages; we do not have any problem with such calculations in practice, and they do not violate the OR policy. The secant example is more questionable, especially without any context to help. I would be more concerned about its accessibility and clarity than its originality.

In the end, the spirit of the OR policy is to keep crackpot theories off Misplaced Pages, not to stop people from writing clear explanations of standard material. The more obvious it is that something is just a neutral explanation of standard material, the less problem anyone can have with it. For example, if multiple textbooks make the same sort of calculation, including it on WP does not violate any policy, even if the form used here is not identical to the form used elsewhere. — Carl (CBM · talk) 04:10, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

1. Jimmy Wales has said of synthesized historical theories: "Some who completely understand why Misplaced Pages ought not create novel theories of physics by citing the results of experiments and so on and synthesizing them into something new, may fail to see how the same thing applies to history." (Wales, Jimmy. "Original research", December 6, 2004)
2. Jimmy Wales has said of synthesized historical theories: "Some who completely understand why Misplaced Pages ought not create novel theories of physics by citing the results of experiments and so on and synthesizing them into something new, may fail to see how the same thing applies to history." (Wales, Jimmy. "Original research", December 6, 2004)
3. Jimmy Wales has said of synthesized historical theories: "Some who completely understand why Misplaced Pages ought not create novel theories of physics by citing the results of experiments and so on and synthesizing them into something new, may fail to see how the same thing applies to history." (Wales, Jimmy. "Original research", December 6, 2004)
4. Jimmy Wales has said of synthesized historical theories: "Some who completely understand why Misplaced Pages ought not create novel theories of physics by citing the results of experiments and so on and synthesizing them into something new, may fail to see how the same thing applies to history." (Wales, Jimmy. "Original research", December 6, 2004)
5. Jimmy Wales has said of synthesized historical theories: "Some who completely understand why Misplaced Pages ought not create novel theories of physics by citing the results of experiments and so on and synthesizing them into something new, may fail to see how the same thing applies to history." (Wales, Jimmy. "Original research", December 6, 2004)
6. Jimmy Wales has said of synthesized historical theories: "Some who completely understand why Misplaced Pages ought not create novel theories of physics by citing the results of experiments and so on and synthesizing them into something new, may fail to see how the same thing applies to history." (Wales, Jimmy. "Original research", December 6, 2004)
7. Jimmy Wales has said of synthesized historical theories: "Some who completely understand why Misplaced Pages ought not create novel theories of physics by citing the results of experiments and so on and synthesizing them into something new, may fail to see how the same thing applies to history." (Wales, Jimmy. "Original research", December 6, 2004)
8. Jimmy Wales has said of synthesized historical theories: "Some who completely understand why Misplaced Pages ought not create novel theories of physics by citing the results of experiments and so on and synthesizing them into something new, may fail to see how the same thing applies to history." (Wales, Jimmy. "Original research", December 6, 2004)

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