Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:20, 14 December 2005

Vandalized articles or needing attention * Anti-Polonism Kulturkampf

Discussions

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Talk archives: Archive 1 Talk archives: Archive 2

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Science in Poland

Hi, I'd like to create a "Science in Poland" template, but I don't believe there are any articles or lists that could be placed in this template. Right now there are only categories. Is anyone who's more familiar with these topics interested in whipping up some articles? I'm interested in lists of famous Poles by science (e.g. "List of Polish physicists"), as well as general articles (e.g. "Astronomy in Poland"). Appleseed 19:28, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Take a look at Poland#Science.2C_technology_and_education. The closest thing we have ATM is Timeline of Polish science and technology (to which Polish science and technology redirects to), but its a start. You may want to create some redirects like Science in Poland to make sure people can find the articles easier in the future. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:33, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Equipment of the Polish Army

Whole series is a big... rubbish! Photos are mostly with fair use license or "PD" without any reason. In datas are mistakes... Moreover there are already sections with equipment in Polish Air Force and whole list of List of ships of the Polish Navy. Temporary I change part of those articles into redirects but it needs our attention and fast reaction. Radomil talk 14:09, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Marie Curie

Kolejna mini-wojenka o narodowość. Jeden użytkownik upiera się o: "Marie Curie was a French chemist of Polish origin". Balcer 16:02, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Kulturkampf

Witam, absurdalny spór z niemieckimi użytkownikami o Kulturkampf, upierają się że nie miał antypolskiego charakteru i Polacy nie byli celem prześladowań ani żadnych ustaw.W talk dochodzi już do absurdu, bo przy podaniu dokładnych żródeł potwierdzających takie cechy Kulturkampfu, po prostu odpowiadają że nic takiego nie ma w artykule(nawet gdy to wyrażnie pisze), artykuł nie jest na temat Kulturkampfu(choć o nim pisze), lub że jest o Polsce więc jest oczywiście stronniczy(choć nawet nie napisał go Polak).Zresztą sami zobaczcie.Mi już powoli ręce opadają. --Molobo 00:36, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Naming conventions (use English) survey

The following may be of interest to Polish wikipedians: Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (use English)#Proposal and straw poll regarding place names with diacritical marks. It's a survey that started six months ago, but apparently some people are still voting. -- Curps 18:43, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Featured articles in other languages#Polish

This needs... well, this needs creating :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 14:06, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

New FAC picture

Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Maly Szyszak. Feel free to comment. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:02, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

New one: Misplaced Pages:Featured_picture_candidates/Kosciuszko's_Oath. Feel free to comment. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:30, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi

Check article Russophobia, to be neutral I believe it needs some Polish opinions too.

Gdańsk Vote stronniczy ?

Gdy tylko pojawiły się polskie nazwy w niemieckich miejscowościach łączących się z Polską historią zostałem poinformowany że należy je usunąć bo "powodują konflikt". No cóż wygląda na to że Gdansk Vote dotyczy tylko Polskich miejscowości...--Molobo 19:58, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Wyszło mydło z worka ... To był jednak dobry pomysł z tymi Polskimi nazwami! Ja ze swej strony zajmę się Królewcem i Prusami Wschodnimi (za podszeptem Molobo). Do następnego (oby szczęśliwego) plebiscytu! Wasz Kosmak aka Space Cadet 00:56, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

By uniknac takich problemów w przyszłości, zerknijcie i wypowiedzcie się na Wikipedia_talk:Survey_guidelines#Fixing_giant_loopholes. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 02:07, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Poland stubs

I found and commented on Poland_bio_stubs_split proposal, and proposed creation of Polish history stubs. Comments appreciated. We may also consider creating Polish culture stubs and others. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 04:35, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

This is the list of Poland related stubs, note that some of them are very new:

• {{Poland-stub}}
  • {{Poland-geo-stub}}
  • {{Poland-bio-stub}}
    • {{Poland-writer-stub}}
    • {{Poland-noble-stub}}
    • {{Poland-mil-bio-stub}}

I would like to see some others, especially:

• • {{Poland-hist-stub}}
  • {{Poland-mil-stub}} (for all military related - (see also this proposal))

I am sure those two would have many entries. I am less sure about:

General:

• • {{Poland-art-stub}}
  • {{Poland-culture-stub}}
  • {{Poland-struct-stub}} (that's for buildings, so far they are under Poland-geo-stub, and there are Germany and UK struct stubs)

Bio:

• • {{Poland-actor-stub}}
  • {{Poland-artist-stub}}
  • {{Poland-politics-stub}}
  • {{Poland-politician-stub}}
  • {{Poland-scientist-stub}}

What do you think? If you like this idea, please support my proposal at Proposal for Polish history stubs and feel free to add your own - you just have to prove there are 'a good number' of stubs that would benefit from this cat. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:21, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Update: a good number is 50+, everything over 80 passes without opposition. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 00:30, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

There are almost 800 Poland-geo-stubs now that I have finished moving stuff from Poland-stub (which is now down to less then 400 stubs). I think we can have not only Poland-struct-stub, but also create some administrative-division stubs, but I'd need help for this (especially how the stubs should be organized? by voivdship?). See Category:France geography stubs and Category:United Kingdom geography stubs for some examples (Germany geo-stub divison is now undergoing voting). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:31, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Proposal - please vote! (and don't forget history stub vote)!--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:43, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Dziwny edit u niektórych reprezentatów szlachty Polskiej

hej z ciekawości zauważyłem że jakiś Rosjanin daje dziwne dodatki do niektórych osób z Rzeczpospolitej(zalicza ich do Rosyjskiej szlachty), nie wiem czy są prawdziwe, wydają się być troszkę rusyfikacyjne.Ja się w tym temacie nie orientuje zbyt dobrze ale może ktoś oceni ? http://en.wikipedia.org/Micha%C5%82_Kleofas_Ogi%C5%84ski http://en.wikipedia.org/Tadeusz_Franciszek_Ogi%C5%84ski http://en.wikipedia.org/Category_talk:Rurikids

--Molobo 16:41, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Tnx. Ghirlandajo has done some controversial edits in the past. but this time I think his explanation is good enough. See User_talk:Ghirlandajo#Ogi.C5.84scy_-_Rurikids.3F. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:33, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Coastal cities events

I wonder whether the title of this article is chosen well. Coastal Cities Events is a very generic term which is difficult to place and certainly not likely to be queried. (December) 1970 Insurrection in Poland or something similar seems like a better and more descriptive title. Chelman 16:17, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

The Polish name is 'December 1970', an even more generic title. I am not sure if we should invent a new name for it. It would be useful to do a search and see how this is referenced in exisitng English sources. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:32, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree that 'December 1970' would be a useless title. I do think that some kind of reference to Poland in the title might be useful. Coastal cities events in Poland might be a better query hook. I checked out some google queries and the events seem to occur under a variety of terms ranging from '1970 riots' to '1970 rebellion' and '1970 insurrection'. Chelman 18:07, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, as for querry, redirects should be enough, and it doesn't really matter where the article is, as long as there are no disambig questions. Rebellion or insurrection are definetly an overstatement. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:09, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Wouldn't it make sense to say 'Polish coastal city events of December 1970'? I think that makes it clearer than anything else that has been suggested. -- Adz 04:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

How about "Polish 1970 protests"? It provides the essential "what," "where" and "when" of the subject. "Coastal cities events" provides none of these, and could be mistaken as referring to a Sopot music festival. logologist 04:49, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

History of Ukraine series

Take a look, comment and modify the new Template:History of Ukraine to be added to the articles of the series! Maybe more or less articles should be included. Comments are welcome at talk of the template. Thanks! --Irpen 19:12, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Very useful tool

I found an extremly useful tool for all editors: go see Misplaced Pages:Tools/Navigation_popups. Misplaced Pages:Tools has lots of other interesting things, but so far I tried the navigation popup and I think it's going to save me a lots of time. I strongly recommend you take a look at this. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:45, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Yup. It's a great tool! Chelman 17:06, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Is it safe ? --Wojsyl 18:56, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Znaczy się? I have been using it for few days and it doesn't seem to have any adverse effects... User:Gerbrant/WikiCheck seems like another useful thing - a dockable, permnament watchlist. I managed to install it, unfortunately, it needs translation from some (Scandinavian?) language to be really functional. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:47, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Aqua template

I copied the following from VIllage pump assistance. I know that this is not exactly Poland related but maybe someone with a fleeting interest in aquarium related things could help out. Mind you, good wiki/html skills are more useful than a knowledge of aquarium related things. I'd be grateful for any help.Chelman 17:06, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I was thinking of developing a dynamic (sweetwater)aquarium guide template similar to the taxobox. Per species of fish one can add:

temperature ph range general hardness range carbonate hardness range whether the fish is a bottom, surface or 'middle' dweller whether it requires flowing water ease of keeping ease of breeding

Preferably this would use graphic icons.

I wonder whether there is a place on wikipedia where i can experiment with dynamic templates? And is there anyone who would be willing to provide assistance?

Chelman 15:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Well....actually i got down to it and managed to put down an early version. you can check the template out by adding the following to an aquarium fish-species page (use the preview mode ;) :

{{Aquabox_begin | name = Gourami}}
{{Aquabox_begin_placement}}
{{Aquabox_temperature | name = 24-27°C}}
{{Aquabox_GH | name = 5-8}}
{{Aquabox_KH | name =  unknown}}
{{Aquabox_pH | name = 6.5-7}}
{{Aquabox_water_region | name = ALL}}
{{Aquabox_social_behaviour | name = Pair}}
{{Aquabox_end_placement}}
{{Aquabox_end}}

I would be most grateful for any and all suggestions on how to improve the template.

Chelman 16:58, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Try Misplaced Pages:Templates. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 02:37, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Who painted this?

Another of Emax unsourced artifacts. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 02:37, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Which election?

Any ideas?

There are many more Poland-related images without source, author or even good caption at User:Emax/Image_gallery/Portrety. Help needed! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 03:40, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Found a match using Google Image search: encyklopedia.interia.pl. According to that page, the painting shows the election of Augustus II in 1697. Balcer 07:13, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Tnx! I have added all 4 election pictures to the free election article. Let me know if you know of any others. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:57, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Comment, please

At Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Kosciuszko's Oath. And feel free to nominate other pics connected with Poland! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 00:01, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

And Misplaced Pages:Featured_picture_candidates#November_Uprising. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 13:12, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I wonder if it would be possible to somehow put in Misplaced Pages the picture of Copernicus shown in this article. The picture shows a computer reconstruction of his face, based on a skull which is highly likely to be his, found in a grave below the floor of Frombork Catherdral. Do we need to obtain permission, or can we just use it under some license, since it is the work of a Polish Government organization? Balcer 16:50, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

That picture is disturbing, to say the least! I don't know about you guys, but I would rather go with the existing picture. Space Cadet 18:18, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I am not proposing getting rid of the existing picture, only suggesting that it would be useful to include this one on Misplaced Pages as well. After all, it is not often that one can see what a major historical figure actually looked like (assuming that the computer reconstruction is approximately accurate). Obviously the portraits of Copernicus painted during his lifetime leave much to be desired in terms of accuracy, given the painting techniques of the time. Balcer 18:49, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, how about just putting a link to that picture in the article, so that people can have access to it. This way the more sensitive users will not be forced to look at it. I mean, when I look at that picture, I'm ready to blow chunks, guys. Thanks for understanding. Space Cadet 19:56, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Try Misplaced Pages:Boilerplate request for permission. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:03, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Copyright problem with Polish coats of arms?

Please see Wikipedia_talk:Image_copyright_tags#Coats_of_arms. We have an anon claiming Misplaced Pages/Emax 'stole' those pictures from his book. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:22, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

New FAC

Please comment at Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Polish-Muscovite War (1605-1618). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 04:59, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Geographic names

Please take a look at the proposals at Misplaced Pages:Naming_conventions/Geographic_names and then comment on the talk page. This is largely a Polish-related issue as most of the Polish territory was shifted westwards after WW2. We are trying to work out a proposal of general rules for geographic naming that would be acceptable thoughout Central/Eastern Europe there. It seems we are pretty close to the final version but your constructive comments are very welcome. There's no voting yet. --Wojsyl 12:43, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Resubmitted FAC

Please comment on Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/History of the Jews in Poland. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:43, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Google Print

I just want to bring to everyone's attention that Google has made available a wonderful new resource, Google Print (link). This service allows you to search inside a large number of books on all topics, and then view scans of the book's pages on which the term you are looking for is present. Note that to protect the book's copyright, some pages cannot be accessed. Also, full access to the text requires a Google account (i.e. a gmail account), available for free (but an invitation from an existing account holder is usually required). Balcer 00:39, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Google Print is mighty useful. Another 'a must' tool for any serious Wikipedian, like Google Scholar. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:01, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Polish saints

I recently created the Polish saints category, and I would appreciate your help in populating it. Appleseed 13:48, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Category:Polish saints? Nice, but I'd suggested creating an article on Polish saints first. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:00, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

"June of Poznań"

as a title, could be misconstrued by the world outside Poland — which, presumably, is the article's main reader — as referring to a children's-book heroine named "June" who lives in Poznań. I would suggest changing the article's title to something more communicative, like "Poznań 1956 protests." logologist 05:09, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

"March 1968 events"

is a title that does not specify the place or nature of the "events." I suggest that this title be changed to something like "Polish 1968 political crisis," in accordance with the article's content. logologist 05:14, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Pułkownik

Please take a look at the Polkovnik article. Since Polkovnik and Polkovnyk were recently merged I thought some of you guys may expand on Pułkownik term in the same article. UA/RU Polkonvik and Polkovnyk have a reasonable amount of material and adding some to the Pułkownik section would be useful. That is, of course, if there are no objections to have Pułkownik be a part of the Polkovnik as I imagine there might be. In any case, please take a look. --Irpen 23:16, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Polish mythology

Copied to Misplaced Pages:Eastern European Wikipedians' notice board, as it seems to be a wider problem. Honestly, I don't know who writes most of this (well, anons do), but I have nominated some of this stuff to VfD previously. See especially the Polish_mythology#Slavic_and_Polish_folk_magic and Special:Whatlinkshere/Polish_mythology. There is so much strange stuff there that I don't know what we should do - some of it may be legitimate, some may be bogus - not my area of expertise. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 01:10, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I previously attempted to draw attention to these totally unreferenced articles with bogus content. There is little data on Slavic gods, almost all of it derived from Vladimir's pantheon as described in Primary Chronicle, therefore detailed descriptions of their worship are most likely forged by Slavic neo-Pagans. Lada and Lado, for instance, are obviously pseudo-gods. --Ghirlandajo 15:59, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Featured_picture_candidates#Image:Bogurodzica.jpg

Comment please :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 01:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_adminship#Halibutt

I think many of us may be able to - and should - give some interesting comments here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:29, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Feudal dissolution

Regarding the article Kingdom of Poland during feudal dissolution, do you think the term "feudal dissolution" is appropriate? "Feudal dissolution" and "regional division" are the two terms I've seen used in WP regarding that period of Polish history, and I arbitrarily chose the former when I created the article. (I'd discuss this in the article's talk page, but it doesn't get a lot of traffic. An anonymous user originally raised this question on Talk:List of Polish monarchs). Appleseed 18:13, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

The process is absolutely analagous to the feudal dissolution of Russia or France. I believe the term is quite appropriate. --Ghirlandajo 13:44, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

The term I encountered was "Fragmentation". Space Cadet 13:52, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

It sounds ok to me. What is the usage in related litarature? Other possible (used) names can be used as redirects and mentioned in the lead, I think (hopefully) the naming of this event will not be controversial.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:01, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I checked Davies, and he uses "period of fragmentation" or simply "fragmentation". If no one objects, I'll move the article to Kingdom of Poland during period of fragmentation. Appleseed 02:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I've also seen "regional partition" and alike in use. Anyway, any name seems fine to me. Just like Appleseed I had the same problem of chosing between "Feudal dissolution" and "regional division", and usually chose the latter name, though the earlier seems fine as well. Halibutt 16:13, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Peter Suschitzky

Please check Peter Suschitzky, started by anon several minutes ago. --Ghirlandajo 13:36, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Seems legit Chelman 13:51, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Golden Age of the Commonwealth

My favourite Matejko. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 07:23, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Jeszcze żaden z nas nie zdążył zagłosować, a tam już przynudzają. Zachęcam wszystkich do głosowania. Appleseed 02:24, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Care to say it in English? --Ghirlandajo 09:09, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

It says: None of you voted so far and people there are already getting bored. I encourage everyone to vote. Halibutt

Thanks. It's better to stick to English. --Ghirlandajo 09:30, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

It's not better to stick to any single language. However, it's always better to ask for translation after the comment was made and not years afterwards in someone's RfA. This way you get the translation instantly. Halibutt 09:46, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

In case you forget, this is an English-language project. So I shouldn't have to ask for translations at all. --Ghirlandajo 09:50, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Ghirlandajo that we should be using English here. I don't mind any language in user space but not here. --Wojsyl 10:44, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Drang nach Osten

The article in question was recently revised by anon, who attempts to push German POV: --Ghirlandajo 15:01, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Another Black Book

Dear Polish editors. Despite some of you initially voted keep at the VfD of the original Witkacy's Black Book, it seems to me (correct me if if I am wrong) that most people later realized that it was a bad idea and it's echo is still roaming at Hailibutt's RfA.

I just want to bring to your attention a new implementation of the same idea by a short-tempered "Ukrainian patriot" fellow who went on crusade with "Russian imperialism in Misplaced Pages". User:AlexPU started a new black book at his talk page . I tried to talk to the guy politely about the issue (see ), but this was his responce. Since, he is unlikely to consider Poles to be supportes of Russian Imperialism maybe a word or two from moderate readers of this board would be useful. --Irpen 19:54, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Irpen, I checked the links and if you insist I can add a comment there. However, I truly think it’s not a good idea. Your advice was very calm and thoughtful, and I cannot imagine anyone would do it better than you did. If he didn’t listen to you, it’s unlikely that he’ll listen to anyone else. Additionally, it seems that his emotions are so stirred at the moment that the more people will try to talk him out of the idea, the more he’ll stick to it. Also, if he’s stubborn, and probably he is, our comments may only make it harder for him to eventually step back from the idea in the future. I think it would be best to ignore it for now, and very likely he’ll just abandon the “Black Book” with time. It’s quite low on his talk page, so if there is no interest in it, he may just move it to archive soon. It’s certainly not the first BB on Wiki nor the last one. I for one found myself recently on HKT’s sockpuppet’s list and only laughed. (no, I didn’t offend anyone, I tried to mediate, lol) Anyhow, it seems that he’s a new user and have to learn his lesson on his own. Please, think about it and let me know what you prefer. --SylwiaS 21:24, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Sylvia, He is not a new user, he is an experienced user that returned from several months Wikibreak. On the other hand, from my past experience with him, he is just short-tempered but not foul-tempered. Therefore, calm persuasions from the Polish editors, who cannot be possibly allies of the Russian Imperialists (he included me in the latter) may actually help to convince him. Personally, I don't care about being in any of such stupid lists and I think I have almost made it to the Witkacy's one at that time. But if he can be convinced to abandon this inflammatory idea, the Misplaced Pages project might gain some civility. --Irpen 23:15, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I'll think of something tomorrow. Maybe others will too. :) --SylwiaS 00:59, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I suppose he had a basis to include User:Ghirlandajo in blacklist. See commentary other editor User:Ghirlandajo in History for the last month.

• (rvv attack by Polish Mafia :)))
• (rvv a new attack by banderovtsy)
• rvv foolish ukrainization of russophone towns)
• (rvv idiotic Moldovan nationalism)
• (rvv a new piece of polish idiocy)
• (stop pushing laughable nationalism, or you will be banned)
• (rvv islamic propaganda)
• (rvv a lunatic vandal)
• (rvv to the last version by Irpen: wiki is not Halychian propaganda machine)
• (rv edits by another Polish zombie)
• (rv moron who was blocked yesterday but returned)
• (rv demented racist who was blocked yesterday but returned)
• (rv shameless POV-pushing by a banderovets)
• (rv a revert maniac)
• belarusian spelling is as pertinent as swahili --Yakudza 18:42, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Yakudza, please do not add any heat here. The point is not whether and when Ghirla's behavior was always exemplary. The point is the creation of another black book as a way to address the problem, especially by the user not exactly known for his own examplary temper and behavior. If in doubt, check AlexPU's edit summaries and entries as other people's talk pages. It is OK with me to disagree on things. It is not OK, to badmouth opponents and create Black Books. The last one was a disaster and we don't need another one. I still hope that Polish editors who remember this too well will say something. --Irpen 18:52, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I left my comment there. However, I am quite appalled with the remarks made by Ghirlandajo on people of various nationalities. I want to Assume good faith, so I'll presume that he didn't know how offending they are. But, since now I feel offended myself, I hope he can realise his mistake and offer us suitable apologies. --SylwiaS 00:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, I don't know why this should be discussed on the Polish notice-board. Secondly, I believe it took our Halychyan friend about a month to wade through my 15,800 edits to pick up these particular comments. If such is the case, he would oblige us by citing particular edits which occasioned them. Then, it would be easy to see that most were addressed to a gang of cronies who were the first to call me, Irpen, Mikkalai, Ezhiki, and others "Russian mafia" both within wiki and on external sites. We have just filed an arbitration procedure against them, so everyone is welcome to comment on the appropriate page. --Ghirlandajo 10:43, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Why, I had already assumed that your responses were due to other provocations, however, I still don’t think that they were justified. Incivility of others doesn’t excuse our behaviour, does it? I am Polish, and so your remarks refer to me as well as to the others. Are they deserved? I hope I haven’t done anything to offend you. I am sure that an arbitration procedure is a proper action, however, I am sorry that it could not have been undertaken before expressing opinions which affect all the Poles. If you didn’t mean a general offence, I think you shouldn’t have a problem with offering us your apologies. --SylwiaS 11:01, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course, I don't defend incivility. I offer my apologies to anyone who took it wrong, but I remind that the comments were addressed to extreme POV-pushers whose disruptive behaviour has been subjected to arbitration procedures. --Ghirlandajo 12:33, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. Could you give me a link to the arbitration page, so that I could comment there? --SylwiaS 13:31, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Centre of Polish Sculpture

Inspired by the recent voting on Brandt's painting, I decided to start an article about the Centre of Polish Sculpture in Orońsko (Centrum Rzeźby Polskiej). I have two questions:

1. Should I mention there also the Polish name, and if so, is there any common form of doing that?
2. What existing categories should be added to the article?

Thanks --SylwiaS 20:40, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

1. After the title you can add something like (Polish: polska nazwa)
2. Category:Polish culture is one. Try going to sculpture, and see what (sub)categories this article has, and chose something appopriate.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:16, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, categories added :) --SylwiaS 00:56, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

How about "Polish Sculpture Center," in the English? logologist 02:55, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I like "Polish Sculpture Centre" better, but I took their English name from their official page, so I don't know if it may be changed. May it? --SylwiaS 08:31, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

If it's a Polish institution, then its Polish name is primary, and we may translate that name for ourselves (mentioning their translation at some point). A link may also be provided from their version.

They would not be the first Polish institution that has mistranslated its own name. If you need examples, let me know. logologist 10:17, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I've been thinking all day about it, and I'm even more married to your idea. Esp. that it's definitely a Polish centre, but not only of Polish sculpture. There are many objects made by artists from various European countries in the park, and even some from Japan and the USA. Also, their services are offered to everyone, and many foreigners come to use their ateliers. So the name you proposed desribes the place much better than the one I used. So, how do I change the name? --SylwiaS 22:54, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I concur. I took the liberty of making the move, using the article's "move" button. logologist 00:29, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll know in future --SylwiaS 00:37, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

The translation on the official website is correct, regardless of whether the centre contains sculpure from other parts of the world. In Centrum Rzeźby Polskiej the 'Polskiej' pertains to the 'Rzezba', meaning Polish sculpture, making it the Centre of Polish Sculpture. To say 'Polish Sculputre Centre' turns the meaning around - in other words 'Polish Centre of Sculpture' (which would be Polski Centrum Rzezby). This is different to a Centre of Polish Sculpture. It may be that the centre contains art that was created elsewhere, but if the centre has an official name then it should be translated correctly - which the official site has done. The page shouldn't have been moved. All the wikilinks from other sites still point to the old site so perhaps it should be moved back. -- Adz 01:44, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Please see my response on the Polish Sculpture Center discussion page. logologist 02:55, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Powiat and województwo

It has been argued convincingly that a prime consideration in rendering the Polish terms powiat and województwo into English should be consistency. I would add a second desideratum: the use of existing English-language equivalents. Personally I would use "county" for powiat, and "province" for województwo. Others as well have proposed these equivalents on the WikiProject Geography of Poland discussion page.

But, while we're at this, has any Misplaced Pages-wide effort been made to establish a universal convention, so that the same equivalents could be applied to most if not all countries?

If there is still no firm consensus as to English equivalents for the Polish terms, doubtless it will take substantial effort to reach consensus on universal equivalents. But wouldn't it be a worthwhile effort, if it saved the English-using Wikisphere from having to deal with dozens of national equivalents? Can you imagine, if we had to concurrently use every country's national word for the single term "apple"? logologist 11:06, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that you are well able to understand the difference between using "apple", "jablko", "appel" or "pomme" on every page and using the English language equivalent of terms that have a definite historical significance. You're just being facetious. ;) The reason why we speak of Voivod(e)ships in Poland instead of provinces has a historical reason. This is a bit of contextual information that can be added to an article on Polish voivodships to enrich the information content of the article. This is analogous to talking about régions, departements and arrondissements in France, prefectures in Japan or other Subnational entities. Knowing WHY a prefecture in Japan is called just that and THAT it is called as such, is definately more valuable than just calling it a province. That is why I would opt for the term Voivod(e)ship. As to powiat....I don't know a correct equivalent but I feel that county is ambiguous since an English county is historically something else from an American county. Chelman 13:39, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, and a Fuji apple is something different from a Golden Delicious apple. Could you please elaborate on the historical necessity of "voivodship" in English usage? logologist 14:32, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

As to voivod(e)ship, I believe it's harmless and has the merit of being used almost universally as the English equivalent of Polish województwo. Contrary to province, which in Poland is used to refer to quite a different type of administrative unit (Province of Posen, for instance), it is 100% unambigous. The case of powiat is a tad more complex as there is no universally accepted version and, as our chat at WikiProject Geography of Poland has shown, we could as well use the terms of district, county, prefecture and perhaps even more. I believe the historical arguments for using powiat instead of county (hrabstwo in Polish) are quite serious and we could go either way here. However, lately we (me and Balcer) finally settled the problem of double naming by moving all of the county articles to powiat of XXX scheme and fixing the List of Polish powiats page. The solution is far from perfect, but it's at least consistent. Halibutt 15:07, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Yep, and a Granny Smith is different still, what are you aiming at? Anyway; województwo had a specific significance in the past (you know...the whole thing with the military chieftains etc. it's explained in: Voivodship). By using that term and pointing it out you direct a reader checking up on Poland or Pomorskie in a possible direction as to WHY and HOW the administrative division as we know it now came to be. You also potentially point him to read up more on the history. You provide MORE, RELEVANT information relating to the administrative division than you would by simply using the word province. The same is the case with the other national subdivisions. I am assuming that you want to replace the cantons, prefectures, régions etc. by province as well? Chelman 15:14, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Chelman here: that's exactly what encyclopedia is for: educate and not translate. I believe some of the issues raised by logologist here were already settled back in the good ol' Talk:Voivodships of Poland times. Halibutt 16:01, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

There is one strong argument for using voivodship instead of province: during the times of the PLC, province reffered to entities larger the voivodship - i.e. Małopolska, Wielkposlka, Prusy, Litwa - those were provinces. See my revised Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth#Voivodships_of_the_Commonwealth.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:44, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Since prowincja was only used historically, for these super-entities, it would be simple enough to differentiate them from województwo-provinces by referring to the individual super-entities by their individual names (Greater Poland, Lesser Poland, Prussia, Lithuania) or collectively by the Polish term prowincje. The historian will have no difficulties; the general reader likely will not have heard of "province" having been used for the super-entities.

Japan provides an instructive example of translating her terms. She translates the Japanese word, Todōfuken, as prefecture, a Latin-derived European word.

And, by the way, why are the names of the old Polish prowincje, listed above, translated in their Wiki articles rather than imported bodily as advocated by some? logologist 05:09, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Anybody has access to Pro Memoria and a scanner?

I'd very much like to read "Zbiegostwo ludności Rosji w granice Rzeczypospolitej" from 2004 issue(got that one through off-wiki friend), and their entire 5-part series "Moje spotkania z polskimi inżynierami wojskowymi XVII" - but I cannot get them in US. So if somebody would happen to have the possibility to 'lend online' those articles, I'd appreciate it very much. Note that some of the older articles from Pro Memoria are online, including the 2nd part of the "Moje spotkania..." about "Fryderyk Getkant".--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:44, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Economics in pre-war Poland

I’ve found an article about economics in pre-war Poland. It’s mostly one-sided opinion, still it provides some information, so I though it might be an interesting read. Here it is 1--SylwiaS 13:44, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

It would be good to incorporate it to Second_Polish_Republic#Economy.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:06, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Redundancy in Polish/German border articles

We have quite a few articles dealing with the question of Polish border change after IIWW and they often cover similar events - I'd go as far as to say some of them are nothing but POV forks. Here are some of the related articles - I probably have missed some: Expulsion of Germans after World War II, Potsdam Agreement, Historical Eastern Germany, Human_migration#World_War_II_and_post-World_War_II_Migrations, Oder-Neisse line, Recovered Territories, Revision of borders of Poland (1945), Soviet occupation zone, Treaty on the Final Settlement With Respect to Germany, Treaty of Zgorzelec, Treaty on the Final Settlement With Respect to Germany. We should fix that - I think most of them should be merged, and all should be categorized (perhaps Category:Polish-German border issue, or just Category:Polish borders) and/or linked from a signle template. Similarly, it would be useful to review articles dealing with Polish eastern border.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:10, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

There are also (seemingly) redundant articles at Lubusz Land, Neumark (region), and East Brandenburg. Olessi 21:33, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Another mess - names of Polish monarchs

See my proposal at Talk:List_of_Polish_monarchs#Naming. Time to end the rule of the 'lauses'. I was kind of suprised, but it may be that translating the nickname is actually the good idea (i.e. 'the Brave' may be better then 'Chrobry' - see my analysis at Talk:Boleslaus_I_of_Poland#Move. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 03:25, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Did two more counts: for Talk:Casimir I of Poland and Talk:Boleslaus II of Poland. I'd appreciate help with this - if somebody could start counting from 'bottom up', for example? In addition to giving us data to back up the move, this also generates list of redirects we need to make. This raises another issue: redirects are very useful, especially as Britannica, Columbia, Catholic Encyclopedia and other sources often use strange, latinized or anglicized versions (like Peter Skarga instead of Piotr Skarga, or Johannes Alasco for Jan Łaski - so listing all possible redirects and the creating them makes the job easier for guys at the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles, who can cross out some of them from their list (not to mention it avoids creating duplicate articles and such).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:48, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Featured_picture_candidates#Leaving_Vienna

FYI.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 06:20, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

History of Belarus

http://en.wikipedia.org/History_of_Belarus Zerknijcie na tą stronę, pewien rosyjski wikipedian wprowadza dość kontrowersyjne zmiany w historii z okresu Rzeczpospolitej Obojga Narodów-w rodzaju "ciężkie prześladowania prawosławnych chłopów przez polskich overlordów", "represjonowana ludność prosi o pomoc cara w Rosji, który broni ich przed Polską" itd. --Molobo 12:21, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Care to translate this gibberish? --Ghirlandajo 12:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

FYI, it's Polish, not gibberish. It's possible to ask the question without being insolent. Appleseed 14:15, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Please post comments in Polish to pl.wiki. This project is not a proper place for Polish-language disputes. --Ghirlandajo 14:19, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Teraz Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodów stała się Polish Empire ;)

--Molobo 13:32, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Ghirlando and Kuban Kazak are really out of control there, deleting sourced information and denying that there has ever been a Russification or that Belarus is a dictatorship. Input from other editors is needed to stop what increasingly looks like a revert war.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:54, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not so sure who really went out of control there. You forget to mention that it was you, Halibutt, Molobo, and Wojsyl who ganged up against me yesterday on the article. It seems like yesterday's disgusting persecution and revert warring was instigated by Molobo when he started wooing revert warriors via the one's own nationality's noticeboard (see above). Halibutt, as usual, was not far way, encouraging Molobo to "feel free to add your 2 cents there" and starting to compose a new black list. As if these five vs. one were not enough, now you are here to recruit more supporters. Kuban Kazak never resorted to such dirty tricks. I've been waiting for your apologies for yesterday's slurs but now it's getting clear to me that it's beneath your dignity to apologise. --Stupid Katsap 17:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I won't go into that besides KK nobody else is supporting your view, since 6 users is not realy a representative sample. I am however suprised by your demand for apology - please show me where have I offended you? On the other hand that page (talk and summaries) contain dozens of your personal attacks about Poles in general and Halibutt in specific, and you don't deem it necessary to reply to his well deserved apology demand.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, a gang of Polish users recruited by one of them at their national notice board are hardly representative of "community's opinion", contrary to your yesterday's assumptions. If there is noone on my side, it's only because I don't deem it worthwhile to post similar announcements on the Russian noticeboard and to recruit people for revert warring, like you do. As for Halibutt's perennial offense - what I should apologise for - for his calling me "vodka pisser", "vodka drinker", or for his starting a black book slandering me? Please specify. --Stupid Katsap and Vodka Pisser 17:53, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I think you're mistaken here. Firstly, History of Belarus was on my watchlist, so I didn't have to "be recruited" to notice your POV edits there. Secondly, you have posted an "urgent" announcement complaining on a "gang of Poles" on Russian notice board and I think you should remember this. Myself, I'm not a member of any gang for your information. Finally, it is not true that Halibutt called you a vodka pisser and it's not getting any more true just because you're constantly whining about this. --Wojsyl 20:26, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, I posted my announcement a day after Molobo's and hours after you had placed your slur on the Adminsitrators' noticeboard, but thenI retracted it within several hours, not wishing to drag Russian users into this silly warring, as I termed it then. Secondly, Vodka pissers was a libel applied by Halibutt to Russians in the conversation with me as a Russian, hence the offense was addressed to myself. He already had issues with a similar oblique anti-Russian comment in the past, see his RfA for that. So far, he haven't apologised neither for the first insult nor for the second one. --Stupid Katsap 11:43, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Useful source when debating issues related to Eastern European history

http://www.taraskuzio.net/academic/history.pdf National Identities, Vol. 3, No. 2, 2001 Historiography and National Identity among the Eastern Slavs: Towards a New Framework1 TARAS KUZIO, York University, Toronto, Canada

Abstract The article surveys Tsarist, Soviet and Western historiography of Russia and how this affected the national identities and inter-ethnic relations among the three eastern Slavs. Western historiography of Russia largely utilised an imperialist and statist historiographical framework created within the Tsarist empire during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Although this framework was imperialist it was gradually accepted as ‘objective’ by the Western scholarly community. Yet, this historiography was far from being ‘objective’. After 1934 Soviet historiography also reverted to the majority of the tenets found in Tsarist historiography. Within Tsarist, Western and Soviet historiographies of ‘Russia’ eastern Slavic history was nationalised on behalf of the Russian nation which served to either ignore or deny a separate history and identity for Ukrainians and Belarusians. In the post-Soviet era all 15 Soviet successor states are undertaking nation and state building projects which utilise history and myths to inculcate new national identities. The continued utilisation of the Tsarist, Western and Soviet imperial and statist historiographical schema is no longer tenable and serves to undermine civic nation building in the Russian Federation. This article argues in favour of a new, non-imperial framework for histories of ‘Russia’ territorially based upon the Russian Federation and inclusive of all of its citizens.

• I recommend all contributors interested in topics related to our joint history on reading this interesting paper.

--Molobo 12:52, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

GooglePrint

Does anybody know if it is possible to make links to googleprint pages ? --Molobo 18:07, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Specific pages? I am not sure. You can always link the book and give the page number in a comment.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:49, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Auschwitz in consciousness of Poles

Here’s an interesting survey Auschwitz in consciousness of Poles. I thought that we might add some of the data to one of articles referring to the subject. E.g. 11% of adult Poles had a relative imprisoned in Auschwitz-Birkenau, and 5% had a relative who died there. Any ideas?--SylwiaS 20:07, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Images

Is anyone aware of a standard way to add captions to images, especially images of historical paintings? I haven't seen a consistent approach, with captions including any combination of the following: title, author, size of original, date created, medium, location of original, plus a text caption explaining the image.

I find that providing that much information is overkill, and personally prefer the minimalist approach--only the title and author. The other information can be mentioned in the actual image page.

The reason I ask is because I would like to trim the captions in the articles I'm working on. Appleseed 22:35, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Try asking at Misplaced Pages:Images or some subarticles. I am not aware of any policy. I don't think all that needs to go to the caption, but it definetly should go to the image's own page.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:47, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

In most cases I use the following way:

"Blah-blah", painting by Painting Painter, 2005, oil on canvas

At times I also add the place the painting is shown in currently. Halibutt 14:27, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Wymiękam!

Guys, can you please take a look at Reichskommissariat Ostland, because I can't handle it no more. I tried to fix it but this puzzle is too complicated for my spaced out brain. Thanks. Kosmak aka ET aka Space Cadet 13:46, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I think I solved this puzzle, judging from the contributions of the author. A while ago an anon started pumping into wikipedia non-decypherable texts about Imperial Japan of 1930s-1940s. It turned out that he is translating some obscure Japanese book. I guess he is doing here exactly the same, getting himself a name. Sprechen sie Japanglisch? Czy panowie rozumia Engrish? :-) mikka (t) 05:40, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Ethno-cultural labels in biographies

Interesting proposal. Worth following if you want to make sure that the rule deciding 'what nationality this person is' is a good one.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:59, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

August Cardinal Hlond

Article needs a serious upgrade. Balcer 18:45, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Revert war on Poles

There is ongoing revert war on article on Poles where it seems the number of Polish people is being disputed with some author using 1971 cenzus numbers as reference and claiming there are less then 10.000 Poles in Britain.Perhaps somebody should take a look ? --Molobo 12:58, 6 December 2005 (UTC) Przy okazji spojrzałem na kontrybucje autora tego zamieszania, redukuje liczbę Polonii z tekstami "revert nationalistic trolls", w międzyczasie pracuje nad zwiększaniem liczby Niemców w artykule o tej narodowości ;) --Molobo 13:02, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Walery Cyryl Amrogowicz - translation requested

Hello! Among articles in Polish that appear here rather regularly :) -- there is one, Walery Cyryl Amrogowicz, which is currently listed on Pages needing translation into English (usually it's there for about two weeks). Perhaps somebody would be interested and translate it. Thanks, and cheers! - Introvert 04:07, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Polish gulag

After reading this news, I conceived the idea of starting an article on Polish gulag in order to enlarge on the peculiar Polish understanding of human rights. I request everyone interested in the project to help me with materials. Otherwise, I'll have no other option but to use scanty stuff available from Russian sources. Sincerely, Ghirlandajo 16:00, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that Gulag is the right term for this. CIA secret prison in Poland or sth like this may be better. However the article barely mentions anything except that such a camp might have been localized in Poland - speculation not worthy of a stub, but you may want to expand CIA secret prisons article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:09, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that CIA prison system would be the better choice of article since it already covers the Romanian location. Chelman 17:23, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Romanian base is claimed was not used for detention. mikka (t) 05:29, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

In this case, Katyn Massacre should be merged with Gulag. --Ghirlandajo 17:38, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Huh? I don't follow your reasoning.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:06, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

His reasoning is that if there is much to write about a topic, it deserves a separate article. mikka (t) 05:29, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I would suggest to wait a bit until the facts are better established and verified. Right now this would qualify for a Wikinews article rather than for wikipedia. If such article is created in the future its title should reflect the official name of the detention centre. --Wojsyl 16:28, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

By all means. Credit where credit is due! logologist 05:39, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Ads, awarness, statistics

There is about 150 Polish native speakers on en-Wiki - possibly some more, who don't know/care Misplaced Pages:Babel. I am pretty sure many of them are unaware of this noticeboard. Anybody would like to volunteer to tell them about it? As a trivia info: there is over 800 German native speakers here, but AFAIK they don't have their own noticeboard. Strange, isn't it?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:06, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Maybe they have more local feeling than a national one. There were over 300 states in Holy Roman Empire. Makes not even 3 users for a notice board. :) I can inform those starting with "A".--SylwiaS 21:55, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Good start. I will do "B". Who's next?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 03:04, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Piotr, "B" is too short. Take "C" as well.--SylwiaS 14:38, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok. "B" is done, I'll do "C" soon.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:01, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

"A" is done. Some had already invitations from Witkacy or yourself, so I made also "D", "E", "F", and "G".--SylwiaS 16:23, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

"C" is done. I will start on "H" next :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:15, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Maybe they don't like the nationalist sentiments expressed on this board and don't want to have anything to do with the various nationalist debates/edit wars that certain prominent Polish Wikipedians engage in, and recruit others to engage in. (Gdansk, Lithuania, etc.) Misplaced Pages is a great vehicle for international cooperation. It shouldn't be used to further nationalist disputes. - Certainly not in this day and age! If the notice board was more constructive and less negative/adversarial/nationalist then maybe other people would be encouraged to use it.

You are right, Misplaced Pages is a great vehicle for international cooperation! I'm glad we haven't discouraged yourself.--SylwiaS 14:38, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Don't feed the troll, Sylwia. Or sock-puppets of fairly obvious origin.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:01, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Polish Legions in Italy

I have created an article on this subject, but now I think that the 'in Italy' description is not correct. Although Dąbrowski's Legion was created in Italy (and eventually the above should redirect into it), the article as it is now (and as it is linked from most other articles) refers to a larger phenomenon: Polish Legions of Napoleon, perhaps, would be a better name? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 03:04, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

"Napoleon's Polish Legions"? logologist 03:37, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

New articles list

Please take a look at Category:Misplaced Pages new articles. mikka (t) 05:19, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, we have the Misplaced Pages:Polish Wikipedians' notice board/to do but few people seem to use it :( --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:03, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, I've started Portal:Poland/New_article_announcements. Let's see how useful this is going to be. --Wojsyl 16:34, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Patek and history of Poland

Could someone, wiser than I am in 19th century Polish history, have a look at Antoni Patek article and comment/expand/rewrite information about “unfavourable decree issued by French government” in Antoni_Patek#Early_life, and “meeting of Dozór Polski in Frankfurt am Main” in Antoni_Patek#Patek.27s_political_life? Also, a Polish source says about evacuation of Polish soldiers after November Uprising organised by Józef Bem, while a French one says about Józef Berri; I left Bem. Is it correct?--SylwiaS 16:58, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedians in Poland

It seems that we all should add ourselves to this category Category:Wikipedians in Poland. Only 22 users listed so far.--SylwiaS | talk 17:56, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm in New York now, but my heart will always be in Poland, do I qualify? Space Cadet 23:31, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Sure--SylwiaS | talk 23:42, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd say no - it seems like it's about geographical location, not nationality. There seem to be nationality cat. All things consider, this is mostly trivia - only Misplaced Pages:Babel is really useful. Not that anybody who has seen my userpage would accuse me of being against trivia :D --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 00:08, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

User:Ghirlandajo

I am sure, many of yours were offended by User:Ghirlandajo. Now his behavior is being considered by Arbitration Committee. Although the case was entitled as "Community vs. AndriyK", all involved parties are subject to Arbitration Committee decisions, and the ArbCom will consider each participant's role in the dispute. In particular, Rudeness and personal attacks by Ghirlandajo will be considered. You can help by adding Evidence on the special page. Anyone (not only involved parties) may add evidence to this page. Please pay attention that the evidence should be presented in special format. You may also add your comments on the workshop page.--AndriyK 22:57, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid that my earlier today's edit in AndriyK's RfA triggered the this announcement. While I've had many unpleasant encounters with Ghirlandajo myself, I don't think we need any widening of the antagonism here, and especially do not appreciate the personal tone of the above announcement. I also do not think this is a "Poles vs. Ghirlanadajo" conflict, regardless of how he depicts it. I have seen Ghirlanadajo demonstrating similar rude behaviour against non-Polish (e.g. Lithuanian or Ukrainian) editors as well. As for AndriyK, I think he should try to behave civil and respect other editors, regardless of their point of view. --Wojsyl 23:18, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

No, my announcement was not triggered by your edits. The reson was, as I explained above, the reason was that the Arbitration Committee is considering the Rudeness and personal attacks by Ghirlandajo. I do not think that anybody here was pleased by comments like this one. So I invited everybody (not only you) to provide the Arbitration Committee with more information. Unfortunately, I cannot find Lithuanian (Latvian etc.) notice board.--AndriyK 11:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Katyn

Kolejne działania pana Ghirlanadajo, tym razem wykasowuje informacje o tym iż Katyn jest kwestionowany przez pewnych autorów z tekstu o Holocaust Denial, sugerując przy tym że oczywiście nie było to ludobójstwo --Molobo 11:09, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Molobo, you again forget that this is not pl.wiki. Please speak English. Your blind revert wars lead to nowhere. --Ghirlandajo 11:10, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Ghirlandajo, perhaps you have a dual personality? Just a few days ago you yourself wrote that the whole affair was forged by CIA propaganda. Don't you agree with yourself?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I also want to mention that at this moment, in the article on the subject in Russian Misplaced Pages, the lead has been turned into a nasty piece of propaganda denying the facts of the massacre - ru:Катыньский инцидент. Clearly this is not necessarily our concern, but if any users reading this page know Russian, they might want to take a look. Balcer 16:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Wola

A user showed up that changes civilians murdered in Wola massarce to "execution of the rebels". I don't want to break 3RR so I am asking for assistance in this matter. --Molobo 22:25, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism of Antipolonism page

Yet again our favourite page about the Evil Poles has fallen subject to a case of nasty vandalism.A vandal named "Zydokomuna" (who might be a sockpuppet) appeared who in line with other users tries to delete information that Poles were subject of genocide during Nazi Germany occupation.Assistance is welcome. --Molobo 17:37, 13 December 2005 (UTC) You're lying, anti-Semitite. Do you know how your comment is called? Demagoguery. Why do you show it to Poles? Do you really think that only there you can find support?

Ah an antisemite-I will add this to the collection. I am already a part of anti-East Slavic conspiracy and anti-German :) Cheers. --Molobo 17:43, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid your contributions today have had a rather Anti-Semitic trait. I've even invited you to clarify your position and you refused to do it. I'm not aware of other names you've received in your "career", but I'm afraid that your claims today are very disturbing. Alexbulg 18:06, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I was not joking and stop making fun of me and deleting my comments from your talk page. I did not insult you in it. Note that no one "tries to delete information that Poles were subject of genocide during Nazi Germany occupation".

I am currently discussing over that article with Molobo, and we've exchanged our opinions thoroughly today at its Talk page, but the information about the mass murder of Poles during WWII in currently not in danger whatsoever. Do not mistake my contributions (regarding the links between right wing parties and its broad use of the term, a fact that I've repeatedly sourced) with said issue, brought here by Molobo only to get sympathy for reverting. Alexbulg 18:06, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

As seen by this edit Alexbulg's statement is proven to be untrue: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Anti-Polonism&diff=31212068&oldid=31211869 --Molobo 18:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Not an edit made by me, in any case, thus I can't respond for it. I do however see at it your removal of Jewish sources and related facts. I also observe that the phrase "Millions of Poles died in German concentration camps such as Auschwitz (in Poland), where Poles were the second most numerous victims after the Jews" (which is the core of the idea) was respected by that user, so I fail to see the "delet(ion of) information that Poles were subject of genocide during Nazi Germany occupation" that you strangely claim was endangered. Ironically, all you have only proven to be wrong, is yourself. Alexbulg 18:32, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

The user changes the statement to "Hostility toward Poles reached a particular peak during World War II, when predominantly the Jews of Poland were objects of German genocidal policies. Some citizens helped the Jews but on the whole it was in vain", which obviously distorts the message of the information, that is , that Poles were subject of genocide based on antipolonism. --Molobo 18:37, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

The fact is, you didn't limit your edit dispute to that paragraph added by that user. You removed sourced and relevant information I had provided too. Most important, you also lied to your contrymen at this board by posting above that some user in line with other users tries to delete information that Poles were subject of genocide during Nazi Germany occupation, therefore acussing me of something I haven't done, most likely in hope that they'd revert for you in good faith, not knowing the truth and all the issues behind the discussion. Alexbulg 18:47, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry but I even created a special chapter on your POV. --Molobo 18:49, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

So you don't deny that you lied to your fellow contrymen at this board? Alexbulg 18:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I never lied.Your personal aggresive remarks speak critically about your contribution to the article, as your belief that I am part of some conspiracy. --Molobo 18:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

You mean, agressive remarks like this unanswered offer I made to you to reach a mutual agreement? In fact, the only agression I see is you lying about the article being endangered due to a cause that would make all Polish users rush to revert in good faith, unaware of your unjustified deletion of information regarding connected Jewish issues (not those related to the Holocaust as in the edit above but on the connection between modern Anti-Semitism and Anti-Polonism). Alexbulg 19:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC) "You mean, agressive remarks like this " Like this : "Unfortunatley, the image of yourself you're presenting is that you're a supporter of NOP of other alike party." "only that certain Poles like you, as a militant of NOP, don't have a neutral stance" "== Your Anti-Semitism == "I also have noticed that you support the theory of Żydokomuna. Please leave the dogmatic teachings of your party outside the Misplaced Pages" "You thus support the theory of a Jewish conspiracy against Poland, which is no suprise considering your political affiliation." --Molobo 19:07, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

But of course, since you adhered to said positions and your addition of the following paragraph: "The groups which are currently most frequently accussed for anti-Polonism include Jewish circles (see Żydokomuna) together with German and Russian politics." I simply invite everyone interested to read all the discussion thoroughly and see the Anti-Semitic color behind your edits. Alexbulg 19:13, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

What escapes me is why Halibutt, with his self-professed Jewish roots, and Piotrus, who should stay neutral as an admin, patronize a person like Molobo. Hatred towards Russia united Hitler with Churchill, as they say.--Ghirlandajo 19:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Guys, please, calm down. I believe any further discussion in this manner will not take you anywhere. I read your messages, and I must say I don't really understand what the point of this discussion is. What you quoted is certainly taken out of context, and it's difficult to make any sense of it. Could, each of you, say what do you want to have in the article and how it's sourced?--SylwiaS | talk 19:17, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Saying somebody has such views doesn't equal agreeing with them. --Molobo 19:20, 13 December 2005 (UTC) " and see the Anti-Semitic color behind your edits" Yes this can be seen in my efforts to mention Jewish victims and defend Yad Vashem --Molobo 19:20, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I see you "defended" it cause it suited your POV there and you needed the source, that's all. When brought before the alternative of respecting reputed Jewish sources against your POV, you rejected them, even deprecating Jewish personalities, thus showing your true colors. Also you didn't say that someone has such views, you pointed at the groups "responsible" of Anti-Polonism according to you and adhered to the theory of Żydokomuna.

Sylwia, the whole discussion can be seen atthe article's Talk Page. I even made a full, large scale version of the article with sources that was reverted by Molobo in late November when I was on vacation, yet I have chosen not to revert to it until I had discussed, and I still haven't reverted to it despite this. I suggest you compare the versions to have a full idea of the disagreement, which has been turned into something personal by Molobo, something in which I see he has a gift. Alexbulg 19:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC) "I see you "defended" it cause it suited your POV there and you needed the source, that's all." I am sorry that you see it this way. "When brought before the alternative of respecting reputed Jewish sources against your POV, you rejected them, even deprecating Jewish personalities, thus showing your true colors." What are you talking about ? This is completely false, unless you are still defending as right racist remarks that Poles have national negative traits from birth.

" you pointed at the groups "responsible" of Anti-Polonism according to you and adhered to the theory of Żydokomuna." Another lie, in order to present me as antisemic.Nothing as such happened, in fact I added information abotu antisemitic theories in the article in the chapter on misuse of the term. The reference you are pointing at is saying "groups seen as responsible by some" not "groups responsible", so your accusations are groundless and simple personal attack. In fact you threatened me before to comply with your POV or face being named antisemite "I suggest you retract immediately if you don't want to be labeled an anti-semitic." You engaged in personal attacks and insults in order to push your POV,claiming I am part of conspiracy, threatening to libel me an antisemite if not complying to your views, and claiming I am member of extremist right wing party. This makes your contributions seem highly biased in view of such emotional activity. --Molobo 19:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Yet another lie on your part, since it was far from a threat, but a suggestion taht you clarified your stance in the light of the anti-semitism of your edits in order that you could save your good name. At no time I said I was going to acusse you of anti-semitism, but that before anyone else could acusse you of it, you made clear what your intention and personal belief was. You completely refused and continued to remove Jewish sources, thus making clear where your personal ideas lie. Alexbulg 19:43, 13 December 2005 (UTC) 'You completely refused and continued to remove Jewish sources, thus making clear where your personal ideas lie. ' They weren't relevant to the article Alexbulg, I even gave you link to the article that you should be interested in if you want to write about antisemitism in Poland.Changing the article from Antipolonism to Polish Antisemitism isn't appropriate. Hoping for compromise I even created a section on misuse of the term.And it was me who added fact that the term is misused in the first place.I am sorry but you seem to have strong POV that everything not dealing with antisemitism is antisemitism, and anyone not interested into turning every page about persecution of Jews in Poland an antisemite and member of far right party. I am frankly not interested much in Polish-Jewish relations to say the truth though. --Molobo 19:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I really have enough of that personal accusations. Here is RFC for Molobo. If the other party is not going to stop this personal dispute I'm going to post one for him too. All Polish wikipedians are welcome to discuss on the RFC page. Alx-pl D 20:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Goodbye

I thank Piotrus, Halibutt, Space_Cadet, SylwiaS, and many others for their presence.Sadly I am in no position to defend myself against a multitude of users with far more experience then me. Goodbye. --Molobo 20:31, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

In case you can still read it. You can ask for help people from Misplaced Pages:Association of Members' Advocates which are probably very much experienced in application of wikipedia rules. They help in conducting defences along the lines of Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes. I strongly prefer to clarify all the issues instead of just leaving the case unresolved. Alx-pl D 20:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

May I suggest that we leave it all until tomorrow? I believe that it's not so unusual on Wiki that two editors get into a heated discussion on some topic. However, there are certainly milder forms of resolving disputes than RFC. I was just going to read through the article's talk page to get some idea of what it is all about, but the RFC appeared before I even had a chance to do that. Could you rethink the RFC for now? We might then use the opportunity to try to resolve the dispute at hand. Please, think about it. I wish everyone good night.--SylwiaS | talk 21:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I will consider that. Alx-pl D 21:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you.--SylwiaS | talk 21:15, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I am disapointed in you: if you think you are right, you should defend your case. Retreating is nothing short of admiting guilt and defeat. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually I am tired Peter.Tired of being called antisemite by people who claim there isn't anything racist in saying Poles are born with negative traits.Called for RFC by people who try whatever means possible to delete information about racism from articles about German figures, being attacked for entering information on atrocities by German units by people who at the same time claim murdering 13 Poles isn "significant". --Molobo 23:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

My advice is two-fold: 1) take a break from controversial articles 2) always provide inline citations in your edits. All can be resolved if you - all of you - take a step back and try to reach a common ground.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 00:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I slept with the problem and I don't really think like retreating from the RFC. It is several months that I lost my belief in good will of Molobo and I was contemplating to make an RFC. It seems that he lost the faith before too. I always tried to explain myself that it is not so bad and if it's only me then it's not a problem, but I can see that the conflicts around Molobo are permanent and sometimes they rise in intensity as this one. In this light, it is much better for the case to go through and gather opinions of wikipedians on what's wrong and what's good in this case. In my opinion the value of the informational content brought by Molobo is beyond all dispute. This is warmheartedly welcome. I only am angry with his emotional way of presenting arguments that leads only to very long disputes that do clarify nothing. My opinion is that this case should serve not to condemn Molobo in any way, but to show what are the good and the bad practices (both on his side and on the side of his opponents including me). In particular it is an occasion for the Polish wikipedian community to assert what is/was wrong in this case. I really would like to see Molobo coming back and taking part in this process. I am concoious that my account of the case is one-sided, but I am also concious that I am not able to present the other side of the case in a fair way. I really count on Molobo to present this other side. Alx-pl D 08:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Just for the record, can you show me any positive contribution of Molobo to this Misplaced Pages? I've got an impression that the guy's mission is to engage in revert warring and to sow discord between contributors of various nations. Correct me if I'm wrong. --Ghirlandajo 08:49, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

He provided many sources for different topics. The problem is that the way he presents the sources and defends them is very difficult to stand, especially when non-Polish contributors are involved. As it sometimes comes to the point that such a non-Polish contributor must verify his opinion based on sources, the contributor is twice as much challenged as needed, because he must overcome not only his/her own stereotypes but also a huge emotional barrier produced by the way Molobo acts. This is probably why you can't see him as a positive contributor, IMHO. Alx-pl D 10:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, I stand corrected. Probably Molobo's strategies on the Eastern and Western fronts differ a little, for I don't remember him providing any sources on Russia-related topics. To the best of my knowledge, the only Russia-related article he started - Judas of Slavdom - was a deliberate spoof. --Ghirlandajo 11:04, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I find it very unfortunate, and at the same time highly significant of Molobo's overall behaviour, that he runs away as soon as he is challenged to legitimise his contributions within a formal procedure. The argument that he suddenly feels unable to cope with users with "more experience" seems like a transparent excuse - after all, he has never shied away from bluntly confronting users with more experience as well as more expertise than he has.

As for the quality of Molobo's contributions: Apart from his extremely obstructive and unfair behaviour on talk pages, he almost exclusively provided cherry-picked random Google results which happened to support, or could be misconstrued to support, his own preconceptions about politics and history. These preconceptions demonstrably stem from, or at least coincide with, those of the extreme political right in Poland. In at least two cases, he referenced Google Print results which were not even available to the public, so he can't possibly have read them himself.

If any proof was needed that narrow-mindedness plus Google do not equate to knowledge, Molobo provided it in abundance. Worst of all, Molobo arrogated the function of an advocate of some ill-defined Polish cause. If there are people who believe that the Poles are a disagreeable, self-pitying bunch, with sympathy for nobody but themselves and criticism for everybody but themselves, Molobo must have confirmed their prejudice perfectly.

I am particularly disappointed that deservedly reputable Polish users - with the exception of Alx-pl - apparently failed to understand this and patronised Molobo on several occasions, displaying what can only be seen as a "my country right or wrong" attitude. Perhaps they fell victim to Molobo's manipulation, who somehow convinced them that they are in a win-lose situation ("Poland vs. Rest of World"). But perhaps I am overestimating Molobo's cleverness and their naivety, and the problem is really much graver.

Whatever, maybe Molobo decided to bow out because he himself finally realised that his absence is doing the "Polish cause" a much better service than his presence. Personally, I'm afraid that means overestimating him again, but let us give him the due benefit of the doubt. Goodbye, then. --Thorsten1 14:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I have not reviewed majority Molobo contributions, and I rarely edit most of the topics he does. Maybe his conduct somewhere has been negative - if so, please provide specific examples, and the Polish editors who read this board will comment on them. I have been familiar in detail only with one of the topics he edited, on the German 4th Panzer Division, and his conduct there, especially in providing references, was very positive. I did spot that Molobo does have an unfortuante tendency to engage in pointless discussion on the talk pages, wasting his time, instead of ignoring the common personal attacks and concentrating on content editing, providing yet more references - but this is a common fault of many a Misplaced Pages editor (including all of those who 'engage' Molobo on talk pages). Molobo is still however much more polite then User:Ghirlandajo, whose common inectives, personal attacks and recent promotion of controversial, POVed history revisionists can be viewed on his recent RfC page (although I'll add here that Ghirlandajo is much more active then Molobo and has created much valuable content for Wiki as well). I also find that Molobo is very active in spotting vandalism and nationalistic POV-pushers like thhat of User:Jadger, who unfortunately seem to more often then not ignored by the more sensible German editors. Until they can't control their fringe POV pushers, then somebody has to keep them in check - and I thank Molobo for taking this burdensome task of my hands. Finally: if Molobo oversteps his boundaries, like User:Ghirlandajo did, then yes, feel free to RfC him (although mediation is should be tried first). We - the Polish editors - will not (I hope) treat Molobo any differently then we would treat editors of other nationalites. Until then, I think Molobo earned himself a ribbon :)--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:20, 14 December 2005 (UTC)