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Canvassing by user Alexikoua

Above mentioned user User:Alexikoua is canvassing regarding the voting on this issue: Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2009_September_6#Template:Northern_Epirus

Here are the examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Factuarius&diff=prev&oldid=312330642 http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Megistias&diff=prev&oldid=312345802

--I Pakapshem (talk) 14:42, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Hold on, is Alexikoua accusing a long standing Admin of being a sock in the first diff there? Canterbury Tail talk 18:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Looks like it. Notified both J Milburn and Alexikoua. Enter CambridgeBayWeather, waits for audience applause, not a sausage 18:24, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Alexikoua accuses not only admins of many things, but many other users of wiki of many other things.--I Pakapshem (talk) 19:05, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

• This canvassing is also going on off-wiki. See this thread, but be aware that it may be deleted shortly (seems it is the second thread, the first one having been deleted). A checkuser would probably be useful. J Milburn (talk) 20:41, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Note the post "Me and I group of friends have tried to secure the article but they we need your contribution", suggesting that there is already an element of meatpuppetry going on... J Milburn (talk) 20:56, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

About this off-wiki ] activity, I am for God's sake NOT involved in this kind of extremist action.

• This 'skolixx' user has joined topixx 5 hours ago ], seems his only intention was to inform in an disturbing way about the template deletion. I wonder who would do that in such an obvious way? Seems like an amateur bait job to me.
• What's really erroneous is that this link has been recently updated, after it was initially -20:41, 8 September 2009 - mentioned in admins noticeboard , with a picture of Nikolaos Michaloliakos, leader of the Greek extremist group Hrysi Avgi, which OFF COURSE I HAVE NOTHING TO DO (reasonably thinking why should I do that? upgrading the link with that picture).
• The level of English is far too poor and my contribution in wikipedia proves exactly the opposite.

As for the canvassing issue I'm accused by i_Pakapshem, (] I wrote about 'a multiply times blocked user', who -according to his record- is Pakapshem, and off course practically impossible to be a current admin), since I have been informed by User:Alarichus that he -I_Pakapshem- proposed the deletion of the specific template from irc-wikipedia. I really regret, since situation is a bit out of control, but reasonably thinking, why should I add such kind of information off wiki? Sorry for the capitals and really sorry for involving J Milburn (the sentence proves that I'm not refering to him) but I really feel sad when being involved in that kind of activity which does not represent me and what I beliefs.

My contribution history proves that I'm not involved on the kind of activity which makes me sickAlexikoua (talk) 00:09, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

It is, actually, another one bad-faith report by user:I_Pakapshem, (] he already has a record of fruitless report in past). It sounds erroneous that someone accuses 'canvassing' while the same time launching irc activity in order to pick up supporters. What's really wierd is that the results of his initiative were sometimes controversial for him (], Someone in 'irc:wikipedia' had a great desire for propaganda today. +an 'Incan name' reference seems to be also a result of these attempts).

His contibution, which is, for the first time he appeared in wiki untill now, limited to specific nationalist topics, just full of reverts and empty argument:

• after breaking a block record: 6 times in 43 days (June 9-July 21), due to endless wp:3rr, wp:npa, wp:civility isues, seems that this was not enough, he continued to show a dangerous pattern of continual battleground behavior ] until he received a 1 revert limit.
• characteristically, when last blocked, and being insistent that the block was totally 'unfair', his talk page was locked too, ].
• Why such a user should be trusted? It's more than obvious that this pattern of activity is still in full motion. I wouldn't be surprused if it was he that made up this childish bait job, according to his knowledge of Greek as well as his endless efforts to promote a nationalistic agenda ] according to his contribution history.Alexikoua (talk) 06:15, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

• We have 3 contributors who said delete and may be possible socks, and 6 contributors who said keep are 90% socks/meats. Let's focus on that. And we have a possible canvassing case.
• There was later found also this . I tried to translate it by using a greeklish to greek converter and then google translate. The main meaning is obvious, but a detailed translation is needed. This seems to be a message previous to this . I personally do not want to blame anyone for anything, but this sudden influx of ip editors at approximately the same time, is suspicious.--Alarichus (talk) 09:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
• Until now, all 5/6 new or ip contributors who voted "keep", have been to found to be located in the same area except one. All of them are located in Greece. I cannot give any information about the last one(guidelines) but you can guess I believe. Regarding the 3 ip or new users who said "delete", one of them is located in Kosovo and one in Macedonia. --Alarichus (talk) 09:34, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
• Alarichus:This thread says, in an extreme propagandistic style:

'Can I not write the text in Greek letters? Some Albanians in wikipedia want to delete part of Greek Epirus, but we have to keep it. Until now some guys I know helped us. When we manage to gather in great numbers I will tell you what to do. (noone knows who's watching).'

Hope this one will be soon checked. Since the baid style mentality is more than obvious. I_Pakashem's ghost activity seems to be his only solution lately.Alexikoua (talk) 11:14, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

• That probably explains the arrival of 5-6 ip users from Greece with no previous contributions(I'll do some more checks, and hopefully I'll find more). I did some investigation regarding this . It seems that no user mentioned the TfD, in #wikipedia-en and #wikipedia-en-help and no user with the username I Pakapshem joined the channels between -10:00, 00:00, until 19:46 when this message was posted. That enhances the possibilities of finding the one who caused all these issues. However, again let's not blame anyone for anything yet. I'll see if I can find more on this. Unfortunately I cannot check the irc logs to get more detailed info. But what I could find is good enough. --Alarichus (talk) 11:17, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
• So although Pakapshem did not join irc, in the dates mentioned, someone thought he did and caused this. The question is WHO?.

I prefer writing good articles, than playing hide and seek in ANI, so hopefully we'll get to the end of this soon. There are 4 possibilities. I will elaborate on them later. --Alarichus (talk) 11:32, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Ever tried to check with a similar nick? Since he has a past record I dont believe he is too innocent in that kind of activity. All posibilites may be possible, joined with similar nick or irrelevant nick. Who knows what he discusses in private conversations right? (any i.p. check in irc possible?). Even a diferrent channel in freenode sounds likely since he was of great need for 'delete' votes. His level of activity is obvious in attepting to wp:gaming the system in every opportunity. Did he became suddenly innocent recently? I dont think so.

The off-wiki childish camvassing attempt, which is obviously a rediculous bait style is for sure for lauphing. Hope that irc-topix ghost will be checked and revealed soon.Alexikoua (talk) 11:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

• I am a telecommunications student, and know how to search for such things. I am 100% sure he did not join with any nick, or canvass in irc. Most logs are public so you can check for yourself. Alexikoua, according to the evidence so far you are the only one who may have done it(canvassing, meatpuppeting), maybe with some involvement from Factuarius. Chris G and I, told you yesterday that those 2 messages you sent may be easily regarded as canvassing. And once I told you that I Pakapshem was the one initially concerned about the template, you started thinking that he would be canvassing on irc for votes. Then lots of ips(most with no edits at all) show up, backing you up. All from Greece. And one saying that I Pakapshem was canvassing in irc, but as I told you, he didnt even join the irc. But you thought that he did, and so did the ip. Then we have this skolixx in topix saying that he had been helped by some friends earlier(dates match with the 5-6 ips from Greece, and especially Athens), asking for more help. And I don't buy the fact his english was "poor", some of his sentences have been deliberately distorted to seem "poor". Afterwards there was found that he wrote also in greek. To me it would seem normal for someone who was warned about canvassing on-wiki, to stop and continue canvassing off-wiki. All hours match against you. There is definitely no involvement from Cplakidas, Aigest, Athenean, Michael IX the White. There is some involvement (regarding on-wiki canvassing) from Megistias, Factuarius. When your case is over, I will check if those 2 ips from Kosovo and Macedonia are related to I Pakapshem. --Alarichus (talk) 12:47, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that 2 notices cannot be considered canvassing. Usually (if not always), canvassing exceedes two people and is mass notification. Also, there is 0 proof that that "skolixx" is Alexikoua, and we can't accuse him of being just because there is a suspected "case"! Can you please bring forward as evidence in this the way that you found out that forum? --Michael X the White (talk) 13:00, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

The definite point(except on-wiki canvassing) is that the ip contributor said that I Pakapshem had been trying to convince him to vote delete yesterday. But I Pakapshem didn't login with this nickname or another, and no one even mentioned such an issue(!!). So the ip contributor was lying. Alexikoua thought from the beginning of this that I Pakapshem was trying to convince us all to back him up by using irc. So we have a new ip contributor trying to back up the belief of Alexikoua by lying. It's clear that they are definitely connected. Combine that with "skolixx", and you get canvassing and meatpuppeting. On the bright side of this issue, most of you weren't involved. --Alarichus (talk) 13:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Suppose he is not such an idiot to join in with his real name. What kind of argument is this Alarichus? You are accusing me as a member of an extremist organization without a single evidence... should I say thank you?Alexikoua (talk) 13:51, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I am not accusing you. No one said you are member of any organisation. But I cannot oversee the facts. You canvassed , and then an ip lied to back up your belief. And 5 others came simultaneously to "save" the template, and we have the off-wiki canvassing to gather support for the template. --Alarichus (talk) 14:04, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

If I understand well what Alarichus and I Pakapshem are thinking, Alexikoua first went to a chat room asking for help in 7/9, then next day 8/9 after J Milburn already had connected Alexikoua with Skolixx, put his photo in the chat room making him the leader of the most (in)famous racist political group in Greece and then posted an IP vote backing “his lies” in the discussion. To me no person could be so idiot to do that. The vote was just another attempt to victimize Alexikoua for canvassing and meatpuppeting and the person or persons who did that must be ashamed. As for for the rest of us before hurrying to extract easy conclusions we must consider the possibility to be the next victim of such a machination. --Factuarius (talk) 14:48, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Factuarius don't connect me with anyone of you. Seriously. And seriously did you even read what I wrote? You didn't even understand what I said, did you? And what is this political organisation you are referring to all the time? None of the ones involved in this connected you to anything. --Alarichus (talk) 14:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

All the time? This was my first post in the discussion. You are not understand anything of what happened. With the start of the voting, someone created a skolixx account in a chat room asking for support. In the very same day someone informed J Milburn for Alexikoua's canvassing giving him the ref about skolixx msg in the chat room. Then, when J Milburn informed the others about Alexikoua's activity as skolixx, they put a foto of the person-signed-skolixx which was the photo of the leader of the most (in)famous racist organization in Greece (see N. Michaloliakos (N. Μιχαλολιάκος) & Chrisi Avgi (Χρυσή Αυγή)). Simple wording: they created a account, they connected it with Alexikoua, then they put the leader's photo "revealing" who "Alexikoua" really is. If Alexikoua didn't -at the last minute- realised it, how he could save himself, if today a message with a link from internet with a Michaloliakos photo and a link to the skolixx messages would posted here? That is what happened, and that is what I mean that what happened now with Alexikoua could happen to ANYONE. Is it now clear? Consider that. --Factuarius (talk) 15:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

You have really messed it all up, haven't you? And why are you telling me this? I don't really care who Michaloliakos is or anything else. All I know is that Alexikoua was canvassing, he was warned, and then six ips from Greece with no previous contributions, came and backed him and up, and then this post was found. Even if I erase that, still..., don't you think? --Alarichus (talk) 16:52, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Of course you are not. You don't even care to -ever- mention the "Albanian" IP votes, don't you? On the contrary after the last Albanian IP vote posted, you rushed to count the votes ("Upadate:10 delete, 7 keep"), after saying "I can prove nothing, and disprove anything". The next time you will mention here or elsewhere my name for canvassing or meatpuppeting I am going to report you. --Factuarius (talk) 17:33, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I have mentioned them. It is not my fault if you cannot see that. And now you are threatening me? This is disappointing... --Alarichus (talk) 17:40, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

No I cannot, because I never canvassing or meatpuppeting and I am going to report you for accusing me on that. --Factuarius (talk) 17:49, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Factuarius actually has made some good points. And allow me to expand further. Why would Alexikoua call IPs for backup when we had already started a discussion supporting that IPs and few-edit users would not be counted in in reaching consensus? Why would anyone do that when IPs and few-edit users are (usually) not counted in such procedures? I do not doubt that some of these IPs really were Greeks that came from that forum and I have found the link given to them by skolixx that leads directly to the Template discussion. But still, why call them in when they are not to be counted? Another question I have is why count "votes" when this is about consensus and not a democracy. I'd also like J Milburn to tell us how he found that adress. I am more than interested.--Michael X the White (talk) 18:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC) I have answered below, just read. Actually there were 2 links, one found by J_Milburn, one by me. After talking with a checkuser, there was decided to search for off-wiki patterns which could explain this sudden inlfux of ips. I found 1, and then JMilburn found an earlier post. --Alarichus (talk) 21:45, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Pakapshem's sick attempt

I'm really pissed off since this continuous reverter made up this sick attempt against me. Actually the topix thread is signed by a user named: worm (in Greek skollix). Who could really sign with such a name? So Pakashem really believes I'm a worm and sings it that way? and I deserve this pic? What else have I to say? His 'zero' encyclopedic contribution in 3 months with continous nationalist advocating and massiv reverting makes me wonder why he is still here, accusing and personal attacking. Suppose his ghost activity in irc is also active in off-wiki too, but not for too longAlexikoua (talk) 13:25, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

That skolixx said: "Some Albanians in wikipedia are trying to delete a piece about greek epirus, but we can reverse this if we gather in great numbers." ( loipon sth wikipedia kati albanoi pane na diagrapsoun ena kommati gia thn ellhnikh hpeiro, alla mporoume na to antistrepsoume an mazeytoume arketoi) Well, if this is not a non-Greek who wrote this, my curiosity is too great to wait to know what kind of a Greek could use the phrase "about Greek Epirus", where Greek is used to make the ditinction, as if the rest of Epirus was not Greek. It is an extremely strange way to describe Northern Epirus and it is the first time I meet it. I really do not think Alexikoua wrote this. I mean, this hardly sounds Greek.--Michael X the White (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

You are on the border of incivility. Take it easy. There are even companies which have that name and as I saw even greek nationalists use it for themselves. Seriously, guys I have seen a LOT on non-english wikipedias(de). This kind of behaviour is just worsening the situation. Michael I really cannot understand your argument. If you think a part of another country belongs to you, you do use your own national denonym for it, don't you? --Alarichus (talk) 13:41, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Just relax. --Alarichus (talk) 13:50, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

As I have mentioned before, it would be useful to make some web-search about this if you're going to involve yourself in this. But it is my mistake that this was not clear. Epirus ia a region spanning both countries. To differentiate the part that is situated in the Hellenic Republic to the one that is in the Republic of Albania, the political (coming from the Autonomous State) and geographical term Northern Epirus. It would be normal (but extremely unlikely) for the term "Greek Epirus" to be used for the part that is in Greece itself, but the part in Albania alone would surely be never referred to as "Greek Epirus". Even if the term was used to describe all of Epirus, greek would still not be used because it is taken for granted. But here we already know that it is used ofr Northern Epirus only.--Michael X the White (talk) 14:00, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Final Comment

The accused user(Alexikoua) canvassed on wiki, and may have canvassed off-wiki. Additionally there is battleground mentality, incivility, tag-teaming, meatpuppeting, possible sockpuppeting. Hopefully, there will be an appropriate solution to all this. I will probably avoid any further conversation regarding this issue. End of story.--Alarichus (talk) 21:45, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I have to apologize for my first reaction, but I see nothing more than just cheap, bad faith, unexplained and without evidence accusations, compined with continous exaggerated assumptions and weird support to I_Pakapshem.Alexikoua (talk) 05:48, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Unrelated with the issue, but I found Alarichus impressively experienced for 2-months user and I believe a research is more than justified about him. --Factuarius (talk) 10:26, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's absolutely disgusting that people join Misplaced Pages already knowing a little about the Internet, and already knowing what an encyclopedia article looks like. I propose we ban anyone who doesn't spend at least a year getting their contributions reverted and deleted. J Milburn (talk) 10:36, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Seriously, that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while. Many users have edited as IPs for some time previously, others have edited on other wikis, on noticeboards, have their own livejournal/myspace/facebook/bebo account....etc. We're not talking about somebody who pops up and immediately starts wikilawyering, throwing allegations around at ANI, and showing total familiarity with the internal Misplaced Pages machinery that probably just indeffed them. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:23, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Elen of the Roads: I never wikilawyering (this is the first time I ever wrote here being 8 months in WP) and I would had never interfered in the matter if Alarichus didn't "throw allegations around at ANI (against me), showing total familiarity with the internal Misplaced Pages machinery" although officially a 2-months user. To me it's a logical thought to question his thorough knowledge on the "internal Misplaced Pages machinery" because of the time being around. So it's not me who wikilawyering here. To me what is mattering is J Milburn's opinion about and thus I am stopping the discussion here. --Factuarius (talk) 17:55, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Pardon me? I didn't say you were wikilawyering. I think you misread my post. I said the other guy wasn't wikilawyering. What he knows a lot about is tracing people on the internet - given what he says he has a qualification in, this is perhaps not so surprising, and not evidence that he is a sockpuppet, which is what I presume you were implying.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:22, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Elen of the Roads: Ι am afraid you have missed some episodes of the story which has a long tail, and I am afraid that I indeed misread your post which in general, as I now understand, was in entirely good faith. Please accept my apologies for the misunderstanding and if you are really a lady please doubled them. --Factuarius (talk) 01:39, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Apology accepted, and thank you for accepting my good faith. I think it would be better if I refrained from further comment - as you say, this does seem to have a lengthy tale to it, with which I have not been involved. Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:16, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, there is, however, one thing justified by Alarichus' short presence here: he does not know enough about WP consensus or discussion. Myself I see bad faith from Alarichus, and pointless accusations. "Possible sockpuppeting"?? Why should that be Alexikoua and not me or Factuarius or anyone else around? The other part about "battleground mentality, incivility, tag-teaming, meatpuppeting" I think is pointless because it is just how a heated discussion of the Greek-Albanian matters would look like from someone uninvolved and uninformed about it. This case, however, is about canvassing. It is about two friendly notices in none of which is there any "call to arms" of the well-known "come and help quickly"/"come vote!"/"You're needed" kind. These were two notices to people who had been involved with the matter and Northern Epirus-related articles and are currently active on Misplaced Pages. Alexikoua can be accused of canvassing on and off-wiki as much as any other user of Misplaced Pages. I mean, can you even check people's phones or e-mails?--Michael X the White (talk) 20:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Michael IX, I'll explain thoroughly why I believe that Factuarius is possibly involved in sockpuppetry. His ip is approximately the same as the ip of one of the ip users who had no further contributions. He also has the same ISP as him. Aprroximately same ip, same isp, involvement in same topics to support same argument. As I found his isp provides a dynamic ip address in a limited range. That would perfectly justify the almost same ip of the ip user with the ip of Factuarius. Michael, were you me wouldn't you also consider possible sockpuppetry? And I did nothing "out of the ordinary" to discover this particular amount of data. Any telecommunications & networks student can do it without breaking any privacy law. This is my last comment, so I would appreciate it if you didn't ask me anything. To Factuarius:Do you understand that I am not accusing you of anything by speculating? These are the factual indications, and anyone else would think similarly. And please stop creating conspiracy theories regarding me, it would be much better to spend your time by improving the project. --Alarichus (talk) 19:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

So you admit that you violate wp:privacy policy, as per wp:Personal security practices. Peeking on registered users private information (such i.p.s) without having authority and without even initiating sockpuppet investigation. Alexikoua (talk) 07:50, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I already told you that I did not violate any part of the guidelines. Factuarius actually revealed his ip accidentally,. --Alarichus (talk) 08:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Really Alarichus? Did you forget something? That during all the voting (both of user's and IP's), my computer and thus my IP was all the time present with active sessions in multiple pages. did I? My ISP is HOL, having a limited number of customers in Athens and the similarities in IP is because of that natural as you know. Also you "forget" something more significant, that my computer is a Linux-based one and in particular Fedora and that is evident since every single of my 2,350 edits I have made for 8 months in WP had be done with this very computer. I am never using windows-based software due to my dislike of Microsoft and this is evident in my history in WP. Thus I am almost sure that no user active ((both of user's and IP's) in the voting had such a computer due to the rarity of that operating system. Every checkuser can inform you about these, and in fact I am sure that had indeed informed you, because otherwise I would had been ended up banned days before when you had asked the checusering, so I am hearing what you say now as another try to disregard my efforts as a clean and rational voice here just because you dislike what I say. I never sockppupeted in my entire "life" in WP. NEVER. Try to imagine that. Is it so difficult for you? Why "Alarichus"? ----Factuarius (talk) 14:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Seriously, you don't even understand what I'm saying. And no checkusers are allowed to inform users about other users' personal data. So no comment, and don't include me in your speculations any longer. The End. --Alarichus (talk) 14:44, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, so could you be kind enough to inform all of us how you knew my IP? I mean what you really doing as "a telecommunications & networks student without breaking any privacy law" Alarichus? --Factuarius (talk) 15:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Again, you do not read my comments. I already wrote before that you showed us your ip . You made it public by yourself. Now please, respect the fact that I don't want to comment any longer. ok?--Alarichus (talk) 15:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I am going to ask a checkuser to investigate your account for possible sockpuppeting and especially in connection to the Sarandioti account a known Albanian user multiple banned spa. End of story for the time being. --Factuarius (talk) 15:27, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, I would really like to see you justify your speculation. --Alarichus (talk) 15:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Axmann8 and 75.186.104.169

Axmann8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
75.186.104.169 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This one slipped under the radar somehow, but there's a good chance that 75.186.104.169 is the indefinitely blocked user Axmann8. The reason I think this is (1) similar interests; (2) similar attitude (removing warnings from talk page, removing others' comments from talk pages, etc.); (3) both are from Indiana; and (4) 75.186.104.169 updating a comment Axmann8 made back in March, which was missed at the time somehow. Kind of an odd thing to do, unless it's the same guy. We known Axmann8 is still lurking, as he tried to file another unblock recently, his first edit under his registered name since he was indef'd in late March. Baseball Bugs carrots 00:00, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I should point out that the IP was blocked just an hour ago, but only for 24. Methinks this requires more discussion. Axmann8 is stale, except for the one edit on September 6th (just a few minutes after the IP's edits on that day) which might be usable by a checkuser. Baseball Bugs carrots 00:03, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

(ec)Axmann8 did self-identify as being from Indiana (why someone would admit that is beyond me) so the IP does match to the general area. nableezy - 00:05, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and the IP geolocates to Indiana. And the IP looks like an Obama-hater. So there ya are. Baseball Bugs carrots 00:11, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Didn't Axmann have a mosquito? -Jeremy 00:36, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

What, as a pet or something? Baseball Bugs carrots 01:15, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

As in an impersonator who tries to get him in hotter water. -Jeremy 01:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I see what you're saying. Either way, he should be blocked for greater length than 24, but I'm not an admin, just a lowly peon, so all I can do is make recommendations. :) Baseball Bugs carrots 01:28, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

With my usual tactful approach, I've asked the IP on his page if he's Axmann8. Baseball Bugs carrots 12:12, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

He is only editing sporadically, at least at that IP. Baseball Bugs carrots 22:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Someone might wanna compare the IP to Disruptive user name (talk · contribs). If it pongs, the IP isn't Axmann. -Jeremy 21:07, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Editor continuing to add many bad refs to physics articles after repeated warnings and RFCU

On June 28 I filed this ANI report about an editor who was using many socks to add irrelevant (or at least very questionable) refs to physics articles, and not editing in any other way. The editor had already been the subject of this RFCU. The ANI report produced no response whatsoever, and the editing pattern has continued, although not the socking -- as far as I know, all the recent edits have been made as Casimir9999 (talk · contribs). I won't give diffs because a glance at the contribs should be enough to show what is happening. I am not going to give any more warnings because I don't have any confidence that anything would be done, but I will notify Casimir9999 of this section. Looie496 (talk) 16:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

There was also a later sterile ANI thread which for some reason I can't find in the archives, but here is a link to it in its final state, I believe. Looie496 (talk) 16:29, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Block, then. He's had multiple chances to get it right and doesn't seem interested. We've got enough of a problem with unreferenced information, we don't need incorrectly referenced stuff as well. Ironholds (talk) 22:59, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Casimir999 makes controversial edits but never communicates. He does not leave any messages on Talk. The only reason not to act immediately is that he has not edited since being warned of this ANI. If he returns to edit more articles without responding here (or anywhere else) I propose a 24 hour block for disruptive editing. EdJohnston (talk) 19:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Otterathome, User:80.171.27.157/80.171.27.157, and User:Mathieas

Removed unarchived thread that hadn't been touched in 24 hours--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:19, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I have unarchived this thread because it is an ongoing issue that remains unresolved. I would appreciate further comments. Thank you. --Zoeydahling (talk) 16:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Unarchiving was unwise. You're emphasizing a pattern of behaviour: off to WP:RFC/U with you for that. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 16:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

As the person who was accused of being a wikistalker (FYI not a real word). I am curious as to why this was archived without a resolution. I looked at the WP:RFC/U that Bwilins linked to and it stated that an incident can be archived for three reasons none of which I believe apply in this case. I don't claim to be an expert in wiki policy, so I would appreciate knowing why an unresolved matter was archived. Thanks. Mathieas (talk) 18:39, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Everything on this page is archived if nobody has followed up within the past 24 hours. If there are remaining issues, there are other dispute resolution avenues you could follow, like WP:Wikiquette alerts or WP:Requests for comment/User conduct. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

So the way it works is, someone makes an accusation against someone, there is a big long discussion (involving a bunch of unrelated stuff), then it gets shoved in a closet and forgotten without a resolution? Seems like a waste of time. So I guess this means I will not be going to wikijail. Mathieas (talk) 06:00, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me, but what "pattern of behavior" am I emphasizing? I am simply following the rules stated at the top of this page. They state "Threads will be archived automatically after 24 hours of inactivity. If you see a thread that should not be archived yet, please add a comment requesting more discussion, or if it is already archived, remove it from the archive and restore it to this page, preferably with a comment."

That is all I did. I unarchived a thread I believed did not merit being archived yet on account of not being resolved and I added a comment requesting more discussion.

Additionally, we already tried Wikiquette alerts and I addressed in the original post why I chose to go here instead of RFC/U. See quote: "Hi, an issue about User:Otterathome was recently raised over at WQA, but was closed as stale. I commented on the talk page of the user who was involved in marking it as such, and s/he replied suggesting RfC/U or if it was becoming a serious problem, ANI or ArbComm. After reading the limitations of RfC/U and the fact that the problem is continuing to escalate, I believe the issue needs to be addressed here. Below is the copy of the WQA alert, and at the bottom I have added some recent updates."

So that is why it was addressed here. Thanks. --Zoeydahling (talk) 05:08, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Again, off to RFC/U please:

• "He has continued on his tendantious editing by nominating another web star" (from previous ANI) - "continued" means pattern
• "He has also tried to impose his views on a quality scale rating assessment for Jessica Lee Rose" (from previous ANI) shows pattern across articles

It was already established beyond reasonable doubt by the community that Wikistalking was not occurring, and therefore immediate action was not required. You therefore were required to address the pattern that you were trying to establish if you wished further action to be taken. Nobody is going to be immediately blocked or banned for AfD'ing articles. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:55, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, remember how I said, since his previous AfD was over, I had no doubt his next one was in the works?

Have a look at this.

Again an LG15-related page, again a page he already tried to kill twice (once through AfD, once through calling for merge).

One month since the keep of the AfD, two weeks since decision not to merge.

How many LG15-related pages does he have to try to get rid of how many times until a pattern is established?

~ Renegade - 213.39.173.221 (talk) 02:37, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't see anywhere that says ANI is not used for establishing patterns of behavior, after all, one of the possible things ANI says it can do is impose a topic ban, which would not be possible without the person establishing a pattern of behavior. Additionally, I don't see anywhere that says that RFC/U is used for establishing patterns of behavior, muchless that it is the only place to do so. If there is such a page, can you please direct me to it? I am trying to follow the policies as written out on the respective pages, but so far all that has happened is I have been told I "unwisely archived" something that, according to the written policies on this page, was completely within bounds, and told to go to another page to establish my case, when nowhere says that that is the only avenue to do so. Could somebody please clarify this all for me so I can understand where this is coming from? Thanks. --Zoeydahling (talk) 02:57, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Massive problem with admin User:Sandstein

At User_talk:Russavia#Topic_ban User:Sandstein notified me that I was "topic-banned from all edits or pages related to the history of the Soviet Union and its successor states (including Russia and the Baltic states), broadly construed and extending to all pages in all namespaces, for the duration of six months." I took issue with this, due to the editors who reported me to AN/I being as guilty of the same types of Battle over a variety of articles, and gave specific examples of it; inserting and edit-warring at Soviet War Memorial (Treptower Park) over the insertion of accusations that the memorial is known as the Tomb of the Unknown Rapist; which turns out was totally false, and the editors in question had not sighted sources they claimed to have done; the other being Alexander Litvinenko at which an editor professed his belief that Putin is a paedophile on the talk page, and the insertion of poorly sourced BLP violating material on said article on that accusation. The issue I had is partly the fact that it was made out that I am the only one who is guilty of such WP:BATTLE violations, and this is obviously not the case. As I wrote on my talk page "I am not blaming others, but I am saying that there are factors which contribute to such things, and that it is only fair that those factors be investigated also. Sandstein refuses to do this, which can only be seen as implicit approval of the behaviour of others as I have raised here. It's about being equitiable and making all editors responsible for their own edits, instead of using carefully selected diffs in order to get rid of a content opponent." So I am taking responsibility for my own edits, if anyone thinks otherwise, and am willing to cop things on the chin, within reason.

At User_talk:Russavia#List_of_articles I have posted a long list of articles I have been responsible for in creating and/or expanding, as a response to a question by another editor just above. Just below the list I wrote the following: "Having said that, I will abide by the topic ban...the history of the Soviet Union isn't really an area that interests me anyway---articles are so biased, that anyone with half a brain who should read them will know that they are biased and will take the article for the joke that they usually are."

Just below this, I queried of Sandstein how the Putin article wouldn't be part of the ban, but comments on a talk page would be. His response astounds me, as all one would have to do is "did you see on *insert name of Soviet history article here* Russavia's edits...what a fuckwit", and I would be in breach of the ban if I were to raise it, according to information I was clearly given This is doing my head in as much as yours, I know.

After the lifting of the permaban on myself, I posted High-Potential Management Personnel Reserve to namespace from my userspace. I tweaked a category on Dmitry Medvedev and reverted on Alexander Litvinenko (link to reasoning coming later). These edits garnered this response from Sandstein at User_talk:Russavia#Warning. Given the amount of conflicting information coming from Sandstein, as to what is or isn't covered by the ban (according to him), the fact that he all but said that Putin wouldn't be covered by this ban, led me to rightly assume that the articles I created would also not be included. The High-Potential Management Personnel Reserve was created 1 year ago, so is hardly history.

An uninvolved admin posted a request at User_talk:Russavia#Requesting_comment seeking clarification as to exactly what articles I can or can't edit, given Sandsteins interpretation of history -- something that I had already sought beforehand, but got no conclusive answers. Sandstein responded to this with User_talk:Russavia#Topic_ban_extended -- he has now banned me from ALL articles relating to Russia or Russians, and has made the laughable claim that I am disruptive in this entire area, which is clearly not the case. Also note Ezhiki's question "Dmitry Medvedev is a current politician as well, yet he was the first to be listed in your warning above. I guess I just don't see the logic (and by the looks of it Russavia doesn't either, and he has to work under this ban somehow). I hope you understand that under such restrictions a clarity of the guidelines is of utmost importance. Further comments, please?" It appears to me that Sandstein has extended the ban because he could not be bothered in providing details of what would and wouldn't be covered. How am I an editor under restrictions supposed to know what articles I can and can't edit when I get conflicting information from the admin handing down the decisions as judge, jury and executioner.

I posted at User_talk:Sandstein#A_solution a possible solution. That being that seeing as Sandstein believes I am a problematic editor in articles relating to the history of the USSR/Russia with the Baltic States, that the 6 month ban be limited to those types of articles. There is no evidence of me being a problem across ALL Russian articles, by any stretch of the imagination, and by limiting the scope to the areas in which I am seen to be a problem, there can be no ambiguity about whether an article I am editing is part of the ban or not. Simply blanket banning an editor from an entire topic in which it can be shown they are productive, because of a problem in a small corner, is not the way that an admin should be operating, particularly moreso when they have not provided sound reasoning for 1) what articles may or may not be edited and 2) extending the ban despite unanswered questions and objections from numerous other admins and editors in good standing.

I take responsibility for my actions, and agree to abide by a topic ban; that being the original topic ban as placed along with sound reasoning as to what articles I may or may not edit (very ambigious although even then), or the topic ban that I suggested on Sandstein's talk page (totally unambiguous as to what I may or may not edit). I recognise that it is my wikibehaviour which is the cause of the initial topic ban, and I take responsibility for that; other's behaviour can, and will, be dealt with elsewhere at another time. There seems to a consensus amongst those admins and editors who have already commented that the blanket ban now in force is draconian and is totally unwarranted. Sandstein mentioned it should be taken to WP:AE, but as this is now as much of a problem with Sandstein's conduct as the ban itself, it is probably the best solution that both issues be dealt with in the one place, as both Sandstein and myself are at fault here, and that is what I am requesting. --Russavia 19:26, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Russavia, huge suprise, you ignored my advice to move on.

So you probably will ignore this advice to: large block of text will probably be skipped over and ignored, this needs to be cut down by 80%. You also have no edit diffs to support your allegations.

It is a real shame you will be indefenetly banned within a few weeks, if not a few days. Ikip (talk) 19:32, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

This is wrong place. If Russavia wants to appeal the sanction by Sandstein, he should complain at WP:AE. If he wants to sanction Sandstein, he should ask ArbCom. If he wants to reverse the previous vote at the ANI that had happened two days ago (the decision by Sandstein was supported by two other administrators and no one voted against), he should provide some new and really compelling arguments in his favor.Biophys (talk) 19:48, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Seeing this wall of text, I did some research

March 2009 - Russavia is warned by Jehochman to respect NPOV under RFAR/Digwuren

June 2009 Russavia is formally warned and placed on notice by Thatcher under RFAR/Digwuren

September 2009 Russavia is formally topic banned by Sandstein under RFAR/Digwuren

Among other things, all of the proper paperwork is in place and it is obvious that Sandstein is not the only administrator who has found Russavia's conduct in this area problematic (there are other blocks for stalking and edit warring, but I am focusing on these in particular). Unless this goes to WP:AE the sanctions will not be overturned and you will be blocked if you violate the topic ban. The other option is appealing to arbcom at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration#Requests_for_clarification. MBisanz 19:42, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Russavia, you can move this to WP:AE, otherwise someone else will probably close this and move it for you. Again, I would strongly suggest condensing this by 80%. You can add this information later, if needed and brought up. Ikip (talk) 19:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The issue at hand is not Russavia's behavior being problematic—he himself admitted that restricting his edits in the area where he is judged to have caused problems is warranted. The issue is that he was placed under editing restrictions, yet all his requests to explain just what exactly those restrictions entail were either ignored by the Sandstein (admin handling the topic-ban) or replied in a manner that did not clarify much (please, do take time to read conflicting and self-contradictory responses to Russavia's inquiries on his talk page). If one is restricted from editing certain topics and agrees to abide by such a restriction, why should the question to explain what those restrictions include be met not with a proper explanation, but with accusations of disruptiveness and extensions of the topic-ban? Such behavior can easily be seen as admin abuse, and this is precisely why Sandstein's actions were questioned by two other admins (myself included) and several editors. This is what this inquiry is about. What the ban was imposed for in the first place is beyond the scope of this thread—Russavia accepted it and only needed some clarifications, which he has full rights to ask for.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:03, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

The referrals to AE and arbitration clarifications appear to be correctly stated. The community does not have the ability to overturn sanctions that derive from discretionary provisions of an arbitration case. No comment or opinion on whether the current action was meritorious. Durova 20:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

No request to overturn sanctions has been made here. The request is to review the actions of an admin, who was unable to explain what exactly does and does not fall under the definition of the topic ban he imposed, and, rather than to provide such explanations, chose to extend the ban to include pretty much everything the user has ever been editing ("just in case", I guess?). It is my understanding that an admin should be able to explain his actions when asked to do so (and he was asked not just by Russavia, but by at least five other people, none of whom were involved in the shenanigans that led to Russavia's topic-ban). Is that an unreasonable request unsuitable for WP:AN/I?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:30, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

Such a request should be directed to the Arbitration Committee because the acting administrator invokes an arbitration decision. Durova 20:59, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

So Sandstein unblocks an editor, and that editor makes his first edit a complain here... the topic ban was certainly justified, and a block following its violation seems justified as well, although I would quibble whether it was justified to make it an indef - I would go with a day or so for the first violation. Overall, I think Sandstein acted properly. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

(e/c with the last two comments) The wall of text by Russavia above (after a day of exchanges in this vein) is too long for me to read as well, so I would just like to refer interested colleagues to the relevant prior discussions at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive562#Russavia unacceptable behavior at The Soviet Story and User talk:Sandstein#A solution. Should there be admin consensus to modify or overturn either my original topic ban or my subsequent expansion of it (although per WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions any appeal discussion should take place at WP:AE), then that is of course fine with me, but I would appreciate it if any administrator making such an amendment would join the few of us who patrol WP:AE (rarely a fun chore, unfortunately). I apologize if any of my very unsuccessful attempts to help Russavia understand the scope of and reason for his ban may have been confusing or contradictory.  Sandstein  20:25, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Support Sandsteins's actions without reservation; caution Russavia not to become disruptive in his characterization of sanctions against him, well and duly earned, as poor actions by the administrator who carried out the final phase. I note not the several warnings received, nor the previous discussions, have led Russavia to contemplate his actions with an eye to improving his demeanor and habits here, and suggest that unless he wishes to meet with further sanctions, he not waste any more bandwidth or time on complaining that he acted poorly and was justifiably sanctioned. Puppy has spoken. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 20:33, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

For the sake of moving on and not dragging this to infinity, I would suggest that Russavia should be placed under a topic-ban as outlined at User talk:Sandstein#A solution (in brief: articles dealing with the history of the Soviet Union and the Baltic States would be a no-no, while something as innocuous as Russian airlines or diplomatic relations with countries outside of the Baltics would be OK). In case of reasonable doubts, Russavia needs to be explained which kinds of articles he may and may not edit under the editing restrictions. It's not like the terms of the topic-ban cannot be extended later should that become necessary; until then there is no need to deprive Misplaced Pages of many useful edits Russavia made in the course of last months. Would anyone second that?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:39, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

• Procedural oppose it would muddy the waters to overlay a community sanction on top of disputed impementation of the Digwuren arbitration discretionary sanctions. Please straighten this out through regular channels. WP:RFAR is thataway. Durova 21:05, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I completely support Ezhiki. I am not uninvolved enough to see if the original topic ban is warranted but by extension it to basically anything this user with tens of thousand user has written we just defacto ban one of a very few content producers in this already severely under-resourced area. Soon there will be not enough people there to simply maintain the articles (it is already not enough for any significant projects). IMHO the ban's negatives much underweight all the possible benefits. I would support very broad ban of Russavia from the topics related to Baltic states, Russia-Baltic and Soviet-Baltics relation there the most of the conflict seems to be centred in. Regarding the procedure, I was under impression that AN/I is a good place to review administrative actions but ff AE is a more appropriate forum for review of the topic ban then please transfer my statement there Alex Bakharev (talk) 00:56, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Ezhiki and Bakharev make some good points here. The original topic ban resulted from Russavia's incivil reaction to a series of calculated provocations by Martintg and others, who are trying to get rid of their content opponent. WP:CIVIL explicitly states, that the policy should not be used as a weapon against others; therefore their behaviour should be condemned. However, one could expect an experienced editor such as Russavia to be more careful. There is no excuse for getting provoked. The original topic ban (Soviet history) may be warranted, but I disagree with Sandstein's extension, which doesn't seem to be based on solid argumentation, but on Sandstein's personal frustration. (The correct decision would have been to delegate the issue to another, uninvolved admin who could assess it more calmly.) Since Russavia is one of the most productive editors in Russia-related subjects, the extended topic ban would hurt this area of WP a lot and would have far more negative than positive consequences. I think this solution would be the best way to go. Offliner (talk) 01:35, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

After spending too much time reading this stuff on various pages, I agree with Ezhiki, Bakharev and Offliner. I doubt Russavia would violate the terms of his proposal, which goes to the heart of the matter and doesn't deprive the encyclopedia of his contributions in other areas.John Z (talk) 04:23, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I believe that a more limited ban would not suffice to prevent continued disruption because Russavia does not really recognize having done anything wrong in the first place, because he has a history of disruption across Russia-related topics and because he seems to have a tendency to wikilawyer the limitations of any restrictions. But should there emerge an admin consensus for limiting the scope of the ban, I would appreciate any admin who implements such consensus to take (co-)responsibility for enforcing it.  Sandstein  05:16, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Well he does say "I recognise that it is my wikibehaviour which is the cause of the initial topic ban" in his TL,DR above, so I AGF. Speculation on his future conduct is just that, and disingenuous wikilawyering out of restrictions he devised would be hard. His disruptions have at times consisted of pointing out serious problems (BLP) in an ineffective way, rather than taking it to BLP/N, say. I ain't an admin, but I'd add my 2 cents and tell him he's behaving like an idiot if he does.John Z (talk) 09:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Per several commentators above, this is not the proper forum (either AE appeal or ArbCom) but while it's here I do feel it necessary to point to Russavia's behavior after the action:

• "Perhaps I will start a new account, and use it to spread accusations of people being murderers, paedophiles and shit like that. But of course, the people will be Russian. What will that get me? Oh, don't worry, I know that already...a medal." - threats of creating sock puppet accounts, obvious attempts at battleground, incivility and extreme assumption of bad faith against Sandstein (who's ruled several times against me I might add and is probably one of the most fair and reasonable admins on AE)
• "That has gotta be the most sorry and pathetic excuse for a banning I have ever seen." - incivility bordering on a personal attack
• "But hey, this has to do with the history of Russia, broadly construed, so I will wait with baited breathe for one of the adolescent children to come running to you to ban me" - personal attacks against other editors, simply because they dared to report his/her bad behavior.
• "What an absolutely-fucking-exciting article that would be to read, I can hardly wait to read it" - completely unnecessary profanity and sarcasm aimed at amping up the drama, battleground (there's a lot more of this, I just picked a single example)
• "I will fight you on that." - note that part of the original report was Russavia saying stuff like "I will fight you to the death on that" on articles
• "So-called topic ban be damned." - this appears to be a willful violation of the ban and a "challange" to Sandstein.

And a whole lot more at . Basically, the Russavia's response should be enough to clear away any doubts that a topic ban was very appropriate. Given that Russavia then responded by purposefully violating his topic ban twice, an overall ban was also appropriate. The fact that this user has created content does not excuse the gross incivility, personal attacks and creation of battlegrounds (not to mention edit warring) that this user engages in (if this was an isolated instance then content creation could serve as a mitigating factor but this user is most definetly a repeat offender, as can be seen from his/her block log).

Russavia could have accepted his topic ban or appealed it through the proper channels. He could have asked for clarification without the use of profanity and personal attacks. Instead he himself made things worse for her/himself by increasing the level of incivility and rudeness and announcing to everyone that s/he was going to violate the ban and then proceeding to violate it. While s/he spends a lot of time on his/her talk page blaming others, I think it's pretty clear that there's only one person to blame here.radek (talk) 05:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Support - Sandstein's action. It was up to Sandstein to rule in this case and he did so. I do not believe that current practice allows AE cases be taken to ANI by disappointed participants. Russavia is welcome to pursue his grievance at WP:RFAR. If Russavia thinks Sandstein misused his admin powers let him try to make the case to Arbcom directly. EdJohnston (talk) 06:18, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

• Nothing changes on Misplaced Pages does it? Actually the real problem is being ignored. The problem over Russavia is actually inconsequential, the problem is that yet again we have an Admin, this time Sandstein, acting in an arrogant and overbearing way, and as usual most are joyfully shrieking "wrong place" or "don't be mean to Admins." In truth, it matters not one jot if this is in the wrong place, this is an encyclopedia not a Politburo run by programmed robots. As usual, here, the result is do anything but look at the true problem - that one Admin can be permitted to behave in this way is wrong and needs to be stopped. Such Admin behaviour has already cost Misplaced Pages dearly, many former content editors have already disappeared, or like me, stopped writing completely, sickened by juvenile, pompous and arrogant little people, who have through some default been allowed to become Admins. It's a huge problem and it's a growing problem. Now we shall have the usual catcalls of "It's Giano, ban him" "How dare he be so rude" and "put it in the right place" - as I said nothing changes here - does it? So many Wiki-departments for so many crimes, so many wanting to be in charge of them, and so few to do the real work. It's pathetic! Now stick it in the right place - and, I could make a suggestion as to where. Giano (talk) 08:56, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
  • I'm in full agreement with Giano's comments above. He describes the problem very well. --Malleus Fatuorum 09:30, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
    • I'm not; the characterisation of "juvenile, pompous and arrogant" is a bit strong. Nevertheless, I do agree that as a learning point, it would've been possible to use a more respectful and tactful tone with this editor.—S Marshall /_Cont 10:55, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

May I inquire who you believe should use a more respectful and tactful tone with which editor? (See also Durova's comment in the "Trout" section below, who appears to have erroneously believed that I used any expletives or was in any way incivil.)  Sandstein  21:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I think the community as a whole could perhaps have used a lighter touch with Russavia. So far as I can see, no individual editor said anything out of line, and I quite deliberately refrained from naming anyone as a perpetrator. But, I think the cumulative effect of all the things said to Russavia was stronger than it needed to be in the circumstances.—S Marshall /_Cont 23:28, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Russavia needed to be pulled into line, but the actions of Sandstein were disproportionate, and maybe even vindictive. Mentorship for Russavia may be an appropriate remedy, as I consider some of his actions now and previously have unintentionally led to conflict. Banning should always be a last resort, and I do not believe we have exhausted all options.

Russavia, some of your actions in the past have annoyed me (your reformatting of Diplomatic missions of Russia without due regard for category consistency being the most egregious). However you have written some articles of note, and I have found you to be a largely conscientious and dedicated editor. Those values, unfortunately, are what drive some of us to take extreme exception whenever other members of the community present ideas different from ourselves. Some suggestions:

(1) take a measured approach whenever you come into conflict with others. Humour trolls. Reason with one-track-mind agenda pushers while respecting their values. Ignore vandals as you remove their handiwork.

(2) don't write War and Peace when presenting your opinions. Be succinct and to the point.

(3) respect your audience. It is cute at best, and galling at worst, when we Australians who have never known warfare or oppression insensitively seek to impose our views on others who may have a clearer understanding of events, we risk being labled as Полезный идиот.

(4) never loose your temper - well, you can loose your temper, but just don't type when this happens.

(5) there is nothing shameful about "crying to" an administrator. Standing up for yourself in a fight might win you respect at Mirrabooka Senior High School. Running your own edit war here is neither helpful nor heroic.

Sandstein - I know that Russavia can be annoying and over-eager sometimes, but remember that the standard of behaviour and accountability for Admins is always expected to be higher. Kransky (talk) 11:45, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Alex Bakharev that Russavia contributes positively in articles on modern Russian history, and he contributes a lot. His problem is different. Russavia perceives a significant number of users to be "enemies of Russia" and he is going to fight with such users "to the death" as he said himself. He is so obsessed that he named (or indicated in diffs) some of his perceived "enemies" in reply to Sandstein. If he is prohibited from editing any articles edited by users who he named himself as his "enemies" and from commenting about these users, this may be fine, and the topic restriction could be lifted.Biophys (talk) 13:16, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I would like Russavia to be restricted from editing articles concerning diplomatic relations and missions. The issue isn't political, but rather he took it upon himself to reformat List of diplomatic missions of Russia without seeking or obtaining consensus. Almost all the other list of diplomatic missions by country articles are formatted in a standard matter (see List of diplomatic missions of Kenya, Peru or before it was changed]). The matter was debated last year without resolution. I am a stickler for consistency, as it helps avoid any suggestion of double standards.

Russavia has also created plenty of stubb articles on Russian ambassadors, diplomatic missions and relations with specific countries of varying quality. Kransky (talk) 13:41, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Add: I actually took the time to read Russavia's long post here, as well as the extensive write ups on his own talk page. The striking thing is that NOWHERE does Russavia even indicate that he is aware that his conduct has been problematic, instead he blames and makes personal attacks on others, lashes out with profanity at Sandstein, threatens to use sock puppets and acts as if it is up to him/her whether or not to abide by the ban or not. A very telling part is how he (mis)characterizes Sandstein's comments from his talk page, here - which is probably what is contributing to some editors mistakenly believing that somehow Sandstein was "rude" to Russavia - which he wasn't. For example, here is how Russavia describes Sandstein's comments:

His response astounds me, as all one would have to do is "did you see on *insert name of Soviet history article here* Russavia's edits...what a fuckwit",

Here is what Sandstein actually said:

Since you agree to abide by your topic ban, I am unblocking you. Should you violate the ban, you may be re-blocked or your topic ban may be extended. As to your question, I cannot usefully answer it, since it seems to be some sort of accusation in the form of a question. Let me only note that no editor is "entitled" to redress or to anything else on Misplaced Pages. To clarify any ambiguity that may exist, you are topic-banned from the subject of Soviet (and Russian, Baltic, etc.) history. That means that you may pursue dispute resolution with other editors, except where such dispute resolution concerns content related to Soviet history. You may certainly object if others make personal attacks against you, and request appropriate admin action. However, I strongly advise you not to do this with respect to any such attacks that may have been previously made in the context of Soviet history articles, so as to avoid violating your topic ban inadvertently. Any wikilawyering about the ban will also not be tolerated.

This is apparently the "astounding" response. How in the world did Russavia get the "fuckwit" comment (complete with quotation marks which make it seem like this was a phrase actually used by Sandstein, or someone else) from the measured and calm response by Sandstein?

These seem to be all attempts at creating Wiki drama and mis-characterizing Sandstein's actions in the hope that no one will bother to check their accuracy.radek (talk) 15:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Let me bring you up to speed. User:Colchicum basically called me a Nazi on User:Digwuren talk page, formulating the response as "I stronly suggest you not collaborate with Ruavia." Sandstein claimed that I would be unable to address such personal attacks myself due to the ban, stating "Russavia, if somebody else makes a proper WP:AE request about this, I will look at it, as will other admmins, but you are currently topicbanned and not helping yourself. If you continue in this vein, I will remove your ability to edit your talk page.". He later responded on my talk page "You may certainly object if others make personal attacks against you, and request appropriate admin action. However, I strongly advise you not to do this with respect to any such attacks that may have been previously made in the context of Soviet history articles, so as to avoid violating your topic ban inadvertently. Any wikilawyering about the ban will also not be tolerated." So I said, that all one would have to do (if they wanted to be a complete arsehole) is write on someone's talk page "did you see on *insert name of Soviet history article here* Russavia's edits...what a fuckwit" and I would be unable to do absolutely anything about it. Add into the fray, that I left the message on another editor's talk page, and another editor made the personal attack against myself. So in short, what Sandstein has said, is that ANY editor may make ANY personal attack on myself, whether it be calling me a fuckwit, a Nazi, communist scum, hell, even a paedophile, and they would only have to connect it to editing on a Russian/Soviet article, and I would be totally unable to report it, as it would violate the ban, according to Sandstein. Does anyone else agree with his opinion there? If so, I suggest you get your head read. --Russavia 01:05, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Russavia, this is out of context and illustrates the problem of your being unable or unwilling to understand the scope of your restrictions (which is why I had to widen them to make them unambiguous). As I said there, you may of course report personal attacks (though this is the first time you provide an actual diff of that attack, which is indeed particularly revolting), including attacks like the "fuckwit" example you give, but it would be better not bring up old personal attacks that were previously made in areas within the topic ban or you might violate the ban inadvertently in the course of their discussion. Colchicum's "Ruavia" attack would be grounds for an indef block, if immediately reported; as it is of March 2009, it is not really actionable any more (blocks are not punitive), but I am certainly ready to intervene if any such conduct repeats itself.

I am tired of this drama and propose the following: If any uninvolved administrator (i.e., nobody involved in Eastern Europe content disputes) believes that any other sanction against Russavia would be more appropriate and workable in lieu of the current broad Russia/Soviet topic ban, I do not object to them imposing that other sanction instead, with the understanding that they would be then responsible for any enforcement and fallout management.  Sandstein  03:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Trout

Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly.

We all deserve a little trout for posting here. It's lovely with baked with dill, broccoli, and potatoes serves me right for offering mild commentary at an Eastern European dispute thread. Please remember that this noticeboard's purpose is community-based administrative action. There are things it can do and things it cannot.

Flowchart

Seek modification of Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary_sanctions → Misplaced Pages:RFAR#Requests_for_clarification

Debate Sandstein's conduct → Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Sandstein

Nobody is giving the run-around to shield abusive administrators from scrutiny. In fact, if you want to scrutinize Sandstein properly I'll gladly certify RfC. Sandstein, it would be advisable to tone down some of your statements. Best wishes (and can we close this thread please)? Durova 17:42, 12 September 2009 (UTC) your friendly local apparatchick

Thanks for your input, Durova, with which I agree with respect to procedure (although according to the relevant remedy appeals against sanctions should be made at WP:AE). Which of my statements do you think I should tone down? I ask this because it is always a particular concern of mine to meet professional standards of civility and courtesy in all interactions, even when the people I interact with do not, as is frequently the case at AE. Feel free to reply at my talk page so as not to prolong this thread.  Sandstein  18:49, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

To be candid, I posted that before fully reading Radek's statement above. Apparently a crude expletive was attributed to you in quotation marks without a diff; Radek contends that what you actually posted was quite different (also without a diff). Apologies if I misunderstood. Since there have also been assertions that you failed to adequately define the scope of the ban, perhaps the best course of action would be to proactively open a request for clarification. A number of experienced editors argue that a somewhat different restriction would be more effective at addressing the problems. So a review of the restiction could occur definitively there. And if diffs are forthcoming of inappropriate conduct on your part then that could be handled too. Let's resolve disputes rather than expand them. Durova 19:52, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. If you refer to the word "fuckwit" used in Russavia's statement, of course I never used such an expletive and I am surprised to see that you believe I would. (I'm not sure that Russavia even means to allege that I did; his statement is somewhat confused.) Radek's quote is correct; the diff is . – As to procedure, how to proceed is obviously up to whoever wants the sanction amended, but I believe that a request for clarification would not be the best venue, since nobody asks for clarification of the ArbCom remedy itself. Instead, as I have advised repeatedly to no effect, WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions directs that WP:AE be used to discuss any appeals.  Sandstein  20:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

ArbCom has been reorganizing its spaces extensively lately. There used to be a section for appeals; that doesn't exist anymore and seems to have been bundled with clarifications. Hamlet, Prince of Trollmark is poking my elbow and making jibes about implications that ArbCom doesn't think it makes mistakes anymore. Anyway, in certain situations the best solution is for the acting administrator to initiate a motion and invite scrutiny. Have I erred? Will honor whatever outcome arises. Everybody gets to have their say in a venue that can actually have a meaningful effect; less frustration and drama on all sides. Sounds sensible? Durova 20:57, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, to paraphrase a quip about the US Supreme Court, ArbCom is not the last instance because it's infallible, it's infallible because it's the last instance... For my part, I will not initiate any new proceedings and believe that I have adequately explained my opinion in the discussions that have already taken place, but I will of course honor any admin consensus or ArbCom decision modifying my sanction.  Sandstein  21:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

And to steal a quote from Absolutely Fabulous: "I was trying to take control of my life, you know, only to find that it's actually controlled for me by petty bureaucracy and bits of bloody paper - ignorant bloody petty rules and laws that just obstruct every tiny little action until you've committed a crime without even knowing it! I mean, you know, why can't life just be made a little easier for everybody, eh?" Several admins and editors have said now that your explanations were not coherent enough to enable myself to continue editting - for example, why does removing BLP from Vladimir Putin not come under the ban, but editing Dmitry Medvedev does? Why does High-Potential Management Personnel Reserve (a program announced in July 2008, and first list released in February 2009) come under history of Russia, but User:Russavia/Duma-A would be ok for me to edit as it is a current list? The HPMPR also is a list of current members of this group. And why would the Duma list be ok, but Medvedev, who is the current President not be ok? It is this type of contradictions from yourself which has led to this. If you had of answered the questions that were asked of not only myself, but also of User:Ezhiki (who is an admin in good standing), we would know where I stood, and where I can edit. Instead, you totally ignored all of us and broadened the ban to include all Russian topics, and used reasoning that came across to me (and others) as some sort of "How dare you question me". You have fobbed off a solution that several editors and admins seem to think is a fair solution, and a solution that leaves us able to know exactly what I may edit without any doubts in anyones minds. And you have also fobbed off a suggestion that I be allowed to continue editing articles in my userspace (see the list at User:Russavia). Also Sandstein, please cease and desist in saying that I do not take responsibility for my actions, because I have written it at least half a dozen times now in various ways and in various places - your continual spouting of this claim seems to me that you are only doing so to try and justify your actions which have been called into question. You demand that I take responsibility for my actions and for my role in this unfortunate drama. The question is, when will you stand up and take responsibility for your actions in this mess? --Russavia 21:48, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually Sandstein declares an intention to honor any consensus that forms at this ANI discussion. So I'll be heading off to enjoy a fine meal of trout. Best wishes for a satisfactory conclusion. Durova 22:25, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I want to also note another case in which Sandstein has recently imposed a topic ban - on user Loosmark . This isn't in order to comment on Sandstein but rather to contrast the behavior of the two users, Russavia and Loosmark in response to their respective bans, and how the community has reacted to each.

Regardless of the actual merits of the case and how it will end, after being banned by Sandstein, Loosmark, after being topic banned , did NOT post long, profanity filled accusations against other users on his talk page. He did NOT make un-civil remarks towards Sandstein. He did NOT make promises to try and avoid the ban through the use of sock puppets. Instead he simply asked Sandstein about how to appeal the ban (although he did indicate that he found the ban ridiculous) . He then posted his appeal at the appropriate venue, appropriate formatted, in polite words, specifically addressing the issue at hand .

On the other hand, after receiving his topic ban, Russavia did ALL of those things that Loosmark did not. He threatened to create sock puppets ("Perhaps I will start a new account, and use it to spread accusations of people being murderers, paedophiles and shit like that."). He launched on long tirades accusing other editors of stuff month and months ago (I'm not gonna provide any more diffs and wiki links here - there are too many, and anyone who feels competent enough to offer an opinion or take any kind of action here HAS A RESPONSIBILITY to read through Russavia's talk page , this report and all the other information). He made uncivil remarks to Sandstein (as well as to other editors) and explicitly stated that he was going to purposefully violate the ban (which is what caused his topic ban to be changed into a general ban). He threatened Sandstein. He made further comments with the purposeful intention of violating his topic ban ("topic ban be damned" ). He then filed an angry, profanity filled report here (though by the standards of his talk page, I guess this can be considered toned down) in which he misrepresented what Sandstein actually said to him, and continued with the incivility and the personal attacks. In fact he filed the report at the wrong place and then acted offended and insulted when this was pointed out to him. He also, unlike, Loosmark, went around and asked other editors to speak up for him.

Like I said, I don't know what the actual outcome of the two appeals (more precisely, one appeal and one misfiled report) will be, but I can imagine one set of outcomes that will contribute to creating the worst incentives possible for the future behavior of editors active in Eastern European topics. And these incentives would be - if you play by the rules, and act polite, you get screwed and your appeal rejected. Screaming loudly, using profanity, attacking users and administrators, creating lots of drama and generally acting in an uncivil manner will get you what you want. I understand some admins might be tired of dealing with this drama, but I would ask them to take a bit more of a long term view here.radek (talk) 04:26, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

IP vandal 216.125.91.130

I've blocked 216.125.91.130 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), and reverted the last few vandal edits. If someone wants to go back and check further back, it would be appreciated. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

As this doesn't require admin action, I thought it better on WP:AN as a description of what I did, rather than WP:ANI. Whatever… — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:01, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Drawn Some and Richard Arthur Norton III

Dear admins, an issue brought here a couple of times before still seems unresolved. It was first noted by User:Alansohn at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive553#Wikistalking_and_edit_warring_by_User:Drawn_Some and again by User:Benjiboi at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive198#User:Drawn_Some_seems_to_be_wikistalking_User:Richard_Arthur_Norton_.281958-_.29. The self-appointed policing by Drawn Some of Richard Arthur Norton seems to be constinuing as elaborated on per my comments at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/William Graham, 3rd Earl of Menteith (2nd nomination) and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Julia A. Berwind (he calls the later "non-notable" despite being covered in The New York Times as "JULIA A. BERWIND, A SOGIETY FIGURE; Leader Here and in Newport" in an article. I would think given that two separate editors had identified a pattern of what looks like wikihounding in the past Drawn Some would lay off, but as with today has these mass spurts of efforts to be rid of articles Richard works on even to the point of today renominting for deletion an article that closed as regular keep (not no consensus) a mere week ago. Moreover, when another editor (User:Ikip) politely requested Drawn Some consider redirecting per WP:BEFORE and WP:BRD, Drawn Some dismissed him as "I don't have time to battle the editors who think notability is unimportant". In any event as in the two AfDs exampled above, Drawn Some said to bring my concerns here and so I am doing so. For more of their interactions, please see here (I suspect their or more in the way of deleted contribs). Now, it would be one thing if these copy and paste nominations were unanimously supported, but again, we are talking about everything from a renomination a week later to dismissing royalty as "non-notable." And a whole series of them from an editor for whom he was twice discussed on ANI previously? I don't know it, it just doesn't feel right. Sincerely, --A Nobody 19:45, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

• • • If you're going to quote me don't lift choice bits out of context. My reply to ikip was:

No, they need to go to AFD. I could have redirected them but it would just be undone without some consensus. I don't have time to battle the editors who think notability is unimportant and everything should be included in the encyclopedia. You see A. Nobody is already making irrelevant smokescreen !votes. Drawn Some (talk) 19:15, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Drawn Some (talk) 19:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

• Not seeing how that is much better. What is with you and Richard? Why are you so fixated on nominating articles he works on or arguing to delete those he wants kept? Sincerely, --A Nobody 20:02, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
• It is interesting that you don't attempt to justify or explain your behaviour in any way. With the best will in the world it is hard to see how your actions can be considered acceptable. Ben MacDui 20:00, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
• Comment: Perhaps a final warning to both to avoid each other, or next step would be a formal topic ban or even escalating blocks? Cirt (talk) 20:14, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
• The behavior that is inappropriate is mass-creation of articles on non-notable topics. Nominating them for deletion is highly appropriate. Drawn Some (talk) 20:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Like Henry Clay Ide (AfD discussion) that you nominated for deletion today for being a non-notable Governor-General of the Philippines? There is a point where the claimed non-notability explanation beggars belief, and the more plausible explanation that you nominate articles not out of policy concerns but simply because Richard Arthur Norton was the last editor to touch them starts to make the more sense. This is especially so when it turns out that Richard Arthur Norton wasn't even the creator of the supposed "mass-created non-notable topic" article. Uncle G (talk) 21:04, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
• Drawn Some's fixation with RAN is unacceptable. The various afd's are clearly motivated by animosity and should be speedily closed. Occuli (talk) 20:37, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
  • That's the goal of this ANI, isn't it? To keep articles that are clearly on non-notable topics. That would be inappropriate as well. Drawn Some (talk) 20:42, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Drawn Some is having these conflicts with Ikip, with RAN, with A Nobody. (I don't think the main conflict is with A.N., though he was the one to bring it here this time) , Does everybody need to avoid him, or is it the other way around, that he needs a long rest from AfD. The problem is not the conflict, but the wikistalking. I think the example Uncle G brought shows it the most clearly. DGG ( talk ) 21:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
    • I wonder if a user conduct RFC would be of benefit. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
      • I don't even know who this person is, so if we had conflicts in the past, they must have been minor because I forgot. Can you provide some edit diffs A Nobody? I always have to ask you to provide edit diffs. I asked Drawn to redirect, but I didn't mention anything about Before. That was the total of my involvment with this person. Ikip (talk) 21:28, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I would like to add here that Drawn Some does not seem to be acting in good fate. He nominates numerous historical biographies that have only just been created. Now i ask, is Drawn Some a historian? What basis does he have in determining that a person is not notable just because he does not know anything about the subject? Misplaced Pages is not complete. There is still alot that needs to be added. Now, wikipedia has thousands, if not thens of thousands of articles about minor historical figures such as these. There are countless of pages about minor nobility etc. And there are countless more missing. These pages add to wikipedia and should not be deleted. Drawnsome is actively working against good editors by preventing new articles from being created. Again: Misplaced Pages is far from complete. Furthermore Drawn Some nominates these articles almost as soon as they are created. Thereby he prevents anyone else from finding the article and adding to it. Alot of articles start off small, and become bigger. By constantly immediatly nominating anything created about minor historical figures, Drawn some is preventing this. I would also like to note that Drawnsome's entire contribution list is filled with these deletion efforts. There are no edits on articles that add anything to the articles. Drawn Some does not add anything to Misplaced Pages. He only removes. And drawnsome does seem focussed on RAN alot. Omegastar (talk) 21:26, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

• I will add my voice to those above and say that Drawn is clearly stalking RAN, This behavior is unacceptable and must stop. The fact that two ANI threads failed to correct the problem makes it clear enough that there is no "good faith" cause for these actions. --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:08, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Possible topic ban if this continues

This seems pretty clear cut. User:Drawn Some. You have two basic options. You can continue down this path of nominating obviously notable articles for whatever reason you may have or you can accept that you may not be a very good judge of notability vis as vis these articles. The first path will result in your being topic banned from AfD, that is to say if you continue I will start a discussion here to reach some community consensus to ban you from starting AfDs or participating at AfD. The second path, which basically involves you reducing the volume of AfD discussions you start and immediately improving your batting average (As it were) is the lowest impact path because it does not require some more heavy handed community participation. Among the recent nominations of yours that I have reviewed (on this list, about 40% have been speedily kept or look to be on that road and <40% appear to be approaching no consensus (That is, 40% is the upper limit for your success rate, even including no consensus closes). .400 is a good average in baseball but not for AfD. It is doubly disturbing that you appear to be following a specific editor and nominating their articles for deletion. If you want to continue to nominate articles, please endeavor to exhaust all options before deletion, write a full and convincing nomination statement (ensuring that it is accurate) and refrain from nominating a string of articles made by a particular contributor. Protonk (talk) 22:39, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

• Seconded, with the note that I will support any topic ban proposal if you fail to adhere to the second path. I've spent quite a bit of time trying to merge, delete and redirect articles on unimportant members of the peerage - heck, I tried to change WP:POLITICIAN to exclude the lords - but this goes over the line, particularly the apparent "stalking" of one particular editor. Ironholds (talk) 22:41, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I echo the words of Ironholds.--Sky Attacker Here comes the bird! 01:27, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Ditto. --Jayron32 03:47, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Ironholds. Targeting a particular editor and wikilawyering are totally unacceptable. Salih (talk) 07:32, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

• I've snow-closed the offending AfD, because the drama it was creating is unnecessary. However, I am concerned that Protonk's and Ironholds' admonishing remarks addressed to Drawn Some are more strongly-worded than strictly necessary in this case. I do not always agree with Drawn Some, but he is a good-faith editor motivated by a genuine desire to improve the encyclopaedia; I tend to think of Drawn Some as a deletionist counterpart to A Nobody or Ikip. I think that what is needed here is guidance and encouragement, not a kick in the arse, and I specifically think Drawn Some should not be topic-banned from AfD.—S Marshall /_Cont 11:23, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

But look at the point that Uncle G provided. There, RAN made a few minor additions to Henry Clay Ide, a governor general of the philipppines and diplomat; an obviously notable person. Immediatly after Drawnsome nominated the article for deletion. This article was not even created by RAN( the article is 5 years old!). It was only edited by RAN. But as soon as RAN made the edit, Drawnsome appeared to nominate the article for deletion. Omegastar (talk) 13:52, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

One comment that I found particularly disturbing is "Yeah, I was on vacation and I was talking about this guy to some friends and they agreed he probably has issues he can't help and that he's not actually hurting anybody. I will still try to clean up after him some when I have time." I have had some fierce run-ins with some, mostly now indefinitely blocked, editors, but have never been so fixated on anyone that I needed to discuss them with real-world off-wiki friends and certainly not while on vacation, not to mention borderline personally attacking him by suggesting on wiki that anyone "has issues". Then, to outright declare after the previous two ANI threads that he "will still try to clean up after him some when I have time" is an outright admission of intent to follow the editor around. On Misplaced Pages we might occasionally have arbcom appointed mentors or voluntarily join the adopt-a-user program, and yes, we all are vigilant against vandalism and problematic editing in general, but to be a self-appointed janitor with regards to a specific editor and especially to assert that you will continue to do so in the face of two different editors who thought it problematic enough to start admin board threads just ain't right. Sincerely, --A Nobody 17:10, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

• Agree with topic ban, per above. Ikip (talk) 17:16, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

• I understand this concern but remain of the opinion that the line presently being taken with Drawn Some is too strong, too early. There is a behaviour pattern to address, but I do think there are better ways to deal with a good-faith editor than this. For example, one might propose a mentorship arrangement, or simply take the matter to his talk page.

  I do agree that RAN, who is a good-faith editor too, should be able to edit without being wikistalked and I understand the Article Rescue Squadron's desire to protect him, but I think a topic-ban would be punitive rather than preventative at this stage.—S Marshall /_Cont 17:33, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

• I understand your concerns and wrestled with them when posting this. My view is that we shouldn't topic ban him now but should he keep this up the face of what is very obviously strong disapproval, we should topic ban him. Protonk (talk) 17:47, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

• That is how I read Protonk's comments: Protonk is just warning Drawn now. Ikip (talk) 20:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, I realise that. I'm merely advocating a lighter touch in this matter in future, because I think the line presently being taken is a bit stronger than strictly necessary. Drawn Some's quite bright, and I think he'll get the message loud and clear without any further drama.—S Marshall /_Cont 23:07, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

• I too support Protonk's position on this. My concern is that, notwithstanding S Marshall's hopes, as yet I see no sign at all that Drawn Some has understood that his actions are beyond the pale. I fear we may be back here again soon. Ben MacDui 10:36, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Legal threat

In the following unsourced, uncited edit to the Henry Ndifor Abi Enonchong article, User:Abanie29(talk)(contribs) threatened "ANY PERSON HOW EDITS THIS PAGE WITH FALSE INFORMATION WILL BE HELD LIABLE FOR DEFAMATION AND LIEBEL". I reverted the edit, and given the legal threat thought I should post it here. For background, the article was created by a single purpose account with no citations or references, and edited by an anon ip. I came across the article later and rather then put it up for wp:afd, I rewrote it using all online references I could find. It was then overwritten by another single purpose. I reverted those edits.--Work permit (talk) 01:37, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Block and CheckUser Abanie29--Sky Attacker Here comes the bird! 01:42, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations is that-a-way. MuZemike 01:45, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

All right captain! Let's go!--Sky Attacker Here comes the bird! 02:07, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I think we should give a break to editors who just learned English yesterday, by reducing the lengths of their indefinite blocks by a day or two. Baseball Bugs carrots 03:19, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

...and infinity minus two would be what? ;) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 03:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

That just means they get the last two days before the heat death of the universe to edit. --Jayron32 03:44, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

There ya go. You're onto it. Baseball Bugs carrots 04:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Somehow, I don't think that they will be still be around two days before the Heat death of the universe...--Sky Attacker Here comes the bird! 11:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Is that some form of Darwinin belief?? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:58, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Given the writing style and similar promotional interest in that guy, it's a good bet that Tracey29 (another one-shot editor, who created the article) is the same as the guy we just blocked. Admin discretion as to whether to block that user also. But he only made the one edit under that user ID. Possibly likewise with user Dbtmamfe, who flooded the article with minutia, and soon after being reverted is when the legal threat popped up. Baseball Bugs carrots 12:21, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Citation bot

Would an administrator stop Citation bot until its operator is once more monitoring it? There is an iassue about ISSN's being discussed now, at Template talk:cite journal, and I've asked BAG members and other Bot owners to look into the number of bugs the bot has recently and the apparently low response and resolution rate by its owner. I've notified the Bot owner of the request at Bot owners noticeboard and will post a link to this also.

At this point, the operator needs to respond to and deal with the bugs, which he does not appear to be doing on a regular and routine basis, and BAG is not responding to my notice, and another user is also concerned that the bot is running and performing a task that is being discussed right now, without any action by its owner to stop the bot and gain community consensus for the task. --69.225.12.99 (talk) 03:50, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Can you post diffs of obvious errors made by this bot that would warrant immediate administrative intervention? Just having bugs does not warrant a block - every computer program has bugs.  Sandstein  06:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

It's hardly immediate, either my request, or the response, and what I said is what I said, supported by the diffs provided. The bot is running, currently unattended by its operator, who is not dealing with the existing bugs. An editor pointed out that the bot is adding ISSNs when it should not be (up to debate), this being discussed at the link I provided. Meanwhile, the bot operator is unresponsive. This is a bot operator who had a bot running without his knowledge before, and, really, there's no harm in stopping a bot for a time, when the operator is not paying attention to its bugs, not responding to user concerns. In fact, this operator became an administrator for the sole purpose, according to his RFA, of being able to restart his bots at his convenience, so there's also no inconvenience to him to stopping it while he's unresponsive, as he can, and will simply restart it. --69.225.12.99 (talk) 08:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

We (or I, at any rate) will not block bots unless we have diffs showing that the bot is doing obvious damage, or unless there is consensus that the bot is doing something that it should not.  Sandstein  08:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

That is what is now being discussed, whether or not the bot should be doing what it is doing. This operator has had prior problems with bots, running them without approval, running them while issues were being discussed. I personally worked very hard to clean up over 5000 bad articles created by this operator's AnyBot. I think erring a bit on the side of caution when it comes to irresponsible operators and a board full of ignored, unrepaired bugs, and questions about whether the bot should be doing something in the first place.

And, as the bot operator's tendency is to do whatever he wants regardless of consensus, that leaves others out of the loop of deciding consensus. In fact, if you work on that theory, that the consensus is for not doing something, then you are authorizing a bot to do unauthorized work. Whatever. You can't be bothered to read my original note, and I can't be bothered to discuss your side arguments. Why don't you clean up the last few hundred anybot articles remaining? Others did the first 6000, created under the "if there isn't consensus to not do it" theory of creating crap. --69.225.12.99 (talk) 08:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Resolved: admin clearly unwilling to look at anything posted, when vague reasons for not looking can be supplied.-69.225.12.99 (talk) 08:40, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I noticed this and feel I should add a little explanation because of the history (another bot by the same author resulted in a decision to delete around 5000 articles created by the bot). It's quite likely that the IP reporting the current issue is the user who was previously thanked by many people for assistance in relation to the previous disaster.

A quick look makes me believe that there are no knock-out examples of bugs with Citation bot, but there is an ongoing debate about some of the edits it is making, with several editors expressing a view that certain changes should not occur (while others like the changes). It should be noted that Citation bot is agreed to be extremely useful in general; I think the issue is that some recent additions to what it does are disputed, and that the bot owner is not available to react.

In this comment, Eubulides says "Citation bot has been running for several days now, with no apparent oversight, and has added a lot of ISSNs and months that many editors oppose. Who's going to undo all this mess?" (I will notify Eubulides of this discussion). I don't know if the bot has bursts of activity, but at the moment it is not editing often, so waiting another 24 hours would appear to not be a particular problem. However, if no one speaks up in favor of leaving the bot running soon, I think stopping it pending discussion would be best. Johnuniq (talk) 08:44, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Please see #Recent problems with the Citation bot below. Eubulides (talk) 13:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Recent problems with the Citation bot

Recently the Citation bot has been having several problems, in two categories. First, editors have different preferences about citation formatting, and the bot is supposed to make changes only when there's a reasonable consensus that these changes are improvements, but recently two changes to the bot were installed without that consensus, and the bot has been running for several days now and has installed what must be hundreds of changes without the consensus. Second, there seem to be bugs (not just preference-disputes) which aren't getting fixed. The changes I've noted recently are:

Adding ISSNs

There have been multiple independent complaints that the bot is adding ISSNs against editorial preference (e.g., my complaint, Headbomb's). The bot operator Smith609 (talk · contribs) replied that he thought there was consensus for it, pointed me to a May discussion that he thought established that consensus, and invited me to restart the discussion. I read the May discussion: it never mentions the idea of the bot automatically adding ISSNs (what it does, is reject the idea of automatically removing them, which is a different matter). I restarted the discussion, and if you look at the resulting thread you'll see that adding ISSNs is highly controversial, with no consensus that the citation bot should be adding them. In controversial areas like this the Citation bot should leave things alone.

Adding months to dates

Again there are again multiple complaints (mine, Headbomb's). When I asked earlier this year that the month not be added (in response to an earlier problem like this), the bot operator replied that the problem was fixed. This time, however, the operator merely replied "Is there a guideline for when a month is appropriate?" with an edit summary "Month is sometimes (always?) useful" and has not followed up to my response of four days ago. This isn't a good enough response to reports of a malfunctioning bot, and indicates a worrisome desire to have the bot add material despite a clear lack of consensus to add it.

Messing with author format

I reported the problem six days ago, the bot operator quickly replied that he patched the bug but said he might undo the patch when he completes a module, I quickly responded that that the bug is not fixed and gave an example, with no response yet from the bot operator. As far as I know the bot is still chugging away installing these changes (I've disabled it for some articles I help maintain, so they're immune for now). In this case, there does not seem to be any dispute that it's a bug in the bot.

Adding unwanted URLs to wrong places

This was reported a couple of days ago by Literaturegeek. It's a serious error and apparently has been going on for some time. No response yet.

Given all these problems, about 30 hours ago I raised the possibility of shutting off the bot for now. No response yet from the bot operator, who has not edited Misplaced Pages for four days. Given all the above, the bot should be shut off for now, and I'm afraid its changes over the past few days may need to be undone (a task that's beyond me). The bot is very useful when it's working, don't get me wrong! But it's not working now. Eubulides (talk) 13:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

To add something, the bot only runs on manual mode. I don't know if it's appropriate to block that bot, given it's not going to do anything unless triggered by meat with eyes. I know I still find the bot useful given all it's current flaws. Headbomb {_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 20:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

If so, why does User:Citation bot #User interaction have a huge red Emergency shutoff button saying "Administrators: Use this button if the bot is malfunctioning."? Surely that button was put there just for the purpose we're discussing now. (Or are you saying that that big red button does nothing if an administrator presses it, and it's placed there only to give us a warm and fuzzy feeling? :-) Even if the bot is run purely manually (whatever that means), surely we shouldn't be encouraging users to run it if it's malfunctioning sufficiently badly. Eubulides (talk) 20:18, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

To stop it for when it's in fully automated mode. Headbomb {_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 20:20, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

• That's odd. If you look at Special:Contributions/Citation bot, the behavior isn't consistent with a human-triggered bot. It's creating lots of pages, such as Template:Cite doi/10.1016.2Fj.pcl.2007.01.008; it's never created pages for me when I triggered it by hand. And its most recent edit to an article, which was soon (rightly) reverted by Materialscientist with the edit summary "useless", doesn't have the feel of a user-triggered bot; instead, it has the feel of an editor who's reverting a bot gone haywire. (Previous comment struck because perhaps Materialscientist tried to use the alt bot.) And anyway, even if this stuff is really human-triggered, that still raises the question: why are we encouraging the use of a bot that has serious bugs right now?
• Let's put it another way. The last time someone reported the bot malfunctioning here, it was with a simple report "Citation bot is incorrectly formatting authors, and User:Smith609, the operator, does not appear to be online." (something that sounds very much like the current situation). Then, the bot was blocked right away. That seems like the right thing to do. What's different this time?

Eubulides (talk) 05:13, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

These templates are the results of {{cite doi}}, you probably are using {{cite journal}} and {{cite books}}. As for what's different, I don't know. I'm not saying the bot shouldn't be blocked, I don't know what's standard procedures with a case like this. I'm just giving context and explanations of what is actually going on. I'll let an admin with bot-related experience decide wheter or not this warrants a block. Headbomb {_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 06:40, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Three overlapping RM and merge discussions, one malfunctioning bot

• There is an open RM at Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II.
• There is an open mass RM at Talk:World War II evacuation and expulsion, affecting the above. The purpose is a mass rename from the descriptive title of a lot of articles to a prescriptive title that is yet uncertain (and in my view violates policy, and I have a lot of other issues with this proposal)
• There is a merge proposal at Talk:World War II evacuation and expulsion, affecting both of the above.
• RfCbot appears to be malfunctioning, the moveheader removal bug this time did this . I have not restored because I don't want to edit war with a bot.

I ask administrators to maintain the move and merge proposals:

• I ask to close the RM at Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II once the bot's edit is reverted, because the other RM superseded this RM and several editors who participated in this vote now voted en-bloc for something different on Talk:World War II evacuation and expulsion.
• I also ask to put on hold the merge proposals as long as the interflicting RM is open, or the other way around.
• I further ask to monitor the RM at Talk:World War II evacuation and expulsion
• And I ask someone to repair the RfCbot

Regards Skäpperöd (talk) 09:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I would agree. The supervision of an outside administrator would be helpful. --Labattblueboy (talk) 13:50, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Update: RfCbot has removed all moveheaders to the affected articles of the mass RM, that were added manually by Labattblueboy. An IP has reverted RfCbots wholesale deletion of the talkpage (diff above), RfCbot has not yet reverted again. All other problems still stand as listed above, help appreciated. Skäpperöd (talk) 21:51, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Firestorm Defense Satalite

The page creator has made legal threats in the article mainspace. The article has been tagged for speedy deletion, so this post may be moot. Thanks Tiderolls 12:52, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

It's SaulDaedalusAI007 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who reacted to the impending speedy deletion of his nonsense article with: "Deleting this page will result in Direct Prosecution of a Maximum Penalty fee. UNDER THE COPYWRITE, DESIGNS & PATENTS ACT 1988 LAW THIS PROFILE IS PROTECTED AGAINST UNORTHARISED PERSONS WHO DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION TO DELETE THIS TEXT.©" One could conceivably indef-block him per WP:NLT, but the threat is probably a bit too silly to be taken remotely seriously.  Sandstein  14:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Mario1987

I have recently discovered and publicized that Mario1987 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been falsely claiming to have referenced an article for DYK. This is the last of many such problems with his DYKs - info that does not check out, sources that are cited with what they do not say, hooks cited with primary sources etc. I've opened a debate about this on the DYK page, and left the same message on his talk page. I also happened to note that this user is on editor review aiming for an RfA after being caught sockpuppeteering, and uses the DYKs and other edits to improve his image. This when most users are not in a position to review his superficial or misleading editing in such articles, and when he puts these up at an impressive rate. This I believe is tantamount to disrupting wikipedia for an ulterior goal.

I will also note that this is not the first time I have directly challenged Mario to explain himself after pointing out major problems with his hooks (which would have otherwise gone unnoticed) - in the past, he has accused me of being biased against him, and has for no reason whatsoever invoked my Bucharest origin against me in disparaging (but not especially insulting) terms. It would take me too much to find these diffs, since the comments were produced on the T:TDYK, which is updated but not archived (and most be one of the most edited pages around). However, what follows includes his repeated accusations on such grounds.

Now, to the core of the matter here. This is Mario's reply to my message. He again claims that I'm out to get him (without replying to the issue I brought up in his article), and states: "I say to you not to worry because everything you say against me or my contributions means absolutely nothing for me and sadly my oppinion of you just dropped to a level even lower than hell." At the bottom, there is a message in Romanian: "Si separat, fara suparare, sa sti ca pe la noi pe aici prin zona Maramuresului este o vorba cum ca voi astia de dupa arcul carpatic sunteti niste tigani. Nu am vrut sa cred asta dar vad ca cel care a spus vorba asta nu a gresit cu nimic." this translates as: "And, as a side note, no offense, you should know that people out here in Maramureş area argue that you people outside the Carpathian Arch are Gypsies. I did not want to believe that, but I see that the man who came up with that saying was not at all wrong." Please don't take my word for it, ask other Romanian speakers how they would translate the message.

I replied, letting Mario know that I consider such messages very problematic, and that, given the projected RfA: "you leave me with a choice of reporting you now or holding the message for future reference." He replied about his interpretation of the attacks: "And about the "lower than hell" comment i urge you to read again because it's nothing offensing about that. I just tried to say that my oppinion of you just dropped to a level 'lower than hell' with the sense of lowest possible. And the message in Romanian wasn't a racist attack it was just a remark present in the region from where i am from. You consider us stupid and slow we consider you gypsies and you know that is right." This shows that he has no problem repeating the insults, and feels that they somehow equate something I supposedly did. Which is not even funny. (Please note in addition that I have never ever stated any prejudice against "his people", and do not in fact hold any such prejudice - this entrenched mentality is entirely his projection.) Dahn (talk) 13:48, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

First of all you shouldn't keep pushing the sockpuppet problem i had in front because that's all in my past. I did a bit of research on your and found out that you also have been blocked due to edit warring so were not entirely that different. The attempted RfA that i had was unsuccesfull and i received this message from editors that incouraged me even if i didn't pass. When i asked him if he hates things outside Bucharest he replied with this message. I saw that you wrote and has for no reason whatsoever invoked my Bucharest origin against me in disparaging but you have on your userpage This user is a Mitică, monşer userbox don't you? And related to the gypsi thing i know it was a bit over the line but i just pointed out a thing that involves people from the region where i live and their oppinion about other people in another region. These are considered cliches in Romania, that people from the Muntenia region including Bucharest are considered Mitici or gypsies, and people from Transilvania and Maramures are considered a bit slow minded and physically slow. Mario1987 14:17, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I am mentioning your "sockpuppet problem" because it is apparent to me that you are trying to move from that to becoming an admin, and I believe that your edits primarily serve that purpose.

I am a Bucharester, that much is true, and I am also relaxed when it comes to self-defining myself as a Mitică (which, btw, is self-ironic). That I would invite you to produce any disparaging remarks against me (as you persist in doing just above), that I would in any way imply I am a "Gypsy" (which carries negative connotations even when referring to a Rom, not just when transferring its supposed negative connotations to a non-Rom), is ridiculous. The rest is an attempt at equivocation, and I trust administrators will see through the thin veneer. Dahn (talk) 14:34, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally, with the above comment, Mario has confirmed my translation. Dahn (talk) 14:41, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

From what i understand you think if i would become an admin the end of the world will come. If you must know that was my first and last attempt to become an admin. If you read the RfA message that i received you will see that i have to take admin coaching in order to become one. And BTW i didn't imply that YOU are a gypsi. Please show me the personal attack in this "And, as a side note, no offense, you should know that people out here in Maramureş area argue that you people outside the Carpathian Arch are Gypsies." It's very ambiguous. Mario1987 14:51, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

No, I am concerned that you are being deceptive in your editing. This, admittedly, is a concern we should all share. I am also concerned that you appear to be using that deception to improve your status in the community, regardless of the consequences this has on the quality of information provided by wikipedia. I am especially concerned since these contributions, as dubious as they are, get exposure on the first page, and I'm concerned that you have repeatedly shown this does not trouble you (judging by the feedback you received on T:TDYK, other editors too share at the very least this concern).

I obviously do not trust you to read and interpret your own comments, otherwise I would not be bringing this up for admin scrutiny. This is what you originally said: "And, as a side note, no offense, you should know that people out here in Maramureş area argue that you people outside the Carpathian Arch are Gypsies. I did not want to believe that, but I see that the man who came up with that saying was not at all wrong." The italicized part is what you did not include in your equivocation about what is "ambiguous". This is the second time on this page where you misquote me on purpose.

Anyway, I don't want to carry on forever in a debate with you. I believe the evidence I presented so far warrants at the very least serious scrutiny. I'll comment if administrators request from me to answer to/elaborate on specific issues, but I see no point in following up on your sophisms, Mario. Dahn (talk) 15:07, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

The veiled racist attack (if the translation is correct) is very problematic, especially for a user who had an indefinite block for sockpuppetry lifted with the comment "last chance". Dahn, are there any diffs and/or other evidence to substantiate your charge that Mario1987 has been falsifying references? That would be a very serious problem as well. If people who can read Romanian can verify either charge, I would support an indefinite block.  Sandstein  14:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I would like to know what references i've falsified. Mario1987 14:19, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Re: Sandstein. It's not a question of diffs, it's more a question of an entire article that was not sourced with the source he claimed to have used. The article in question is Max Auschnitt, and the version I'm referring to is this one (the current one, as I'm writing this). I have stated the case on his talk page (the message I linked to above) and my original message concerning the Auschnitt hook on T:TDYK. See

Additional note: please take a look at what Mario's sockpuppets were created for. At the time, Mario was using them in an attempt to promote as many pictures at once to featured status (all of them has since been moved to commons and they appear to have since been deleted). What just happened, I suspect, is the same attempt at receiving quick recognition for questionable contributions, also through a disruptive and deceptive process, and this evidences that the only lesson he has picked up from the previous block is to try the same tactic in other fields. Dahn (talk) 15:59, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Wait a minute. That's not fair. Using past problems to resolve present ones. And you keep telling the misleading reference story all the time. How many DYK articles i nominated that had real issues? I'm curious of what you're going to say. Mario1987 17:28, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I am using the past problems to show that you have done the same in Auschnitt's case. "And you keep telling the misleading reference story all the time." - let's see you prove, say, how you could cite a 1940 source on 1948 events. As for your DYK's: I never counted them, nor kept a file on you; I also said that it is hard for me to review your entire DYK history, when T:TDYK does not keep an archive. But admins can verify your history there as well. For one, they have User:Materialscientist agreeing that: " nominations, including this one, are written too quickly and would clearly benefit from better research and judgment on what is worth putting on WP pages" (see the T:TDYK link above). Also, if challenged, I am willing to take time from my editing etc. and go through the DYK proposals that I've had to correct: for instance, the one where you claimed that a church held one one of the oldest books in Romania (when it was not even one of the oldest printed books); where you claimed that two singers produced a huge number of singles in an entry that was about unreleased songs; where you created a hook (which is still on T:TDYK) which conflated a city and a county; where you sourced your hooks with primary source press releases.

Incidentally, I believe this is beyond the scope of this discussion, and I only replied to your points so you don't get another chance to blur the facts. The facts, the main but not the only facts, are that: a) you added false citations to an article; b) you produced personal attacks with racist content. And I ca only agree with Sandstein's assessment that any of these should warrant sanction. If you also want to discuss the rest, we can start another thread. Dahn (talk) 17:45, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

You have yet to come up with a reasonable explanation for the racist comments, and have yet to provide proof for the sources you claim in the DYK hook. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 17:46, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Please show me where i attacked him as a person in the comments i posted on his talk page. Regarding the reference in the DYK hook I recognise that my inspiration was the same article in the Romanian Misplaced Pages and that i didn't research the relevant article. Mario1987 19:41, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I just want to point out the relevant fact here, because it may otherwise get lost in the comments: "Regarding the reference in the DYK hook I recognise that my inspiration was the same article in the Romanian Misplaced Pages and that i didn't research the relevant article." Yet you added false citations to the source (which were not present in the Romanian version) and submitted the hook. This knowing full well that the article was not going to get picked for DYK without citations. This is called a hoax, and admins now have your admission. Further above, they have your confirmation that my translation of your talk page message is correct. Dahn (talk) 19:54, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

• Is there a link to the sockpuppet matter, and the case of Mario1987 being given a "last chance"? I am concerned that there does seem to be a case made by Dhan that Mario1987 is not acting appropriately in attempting to garner accolades, which was also the perceived intent in the socking. I would note that Mario1987 has indicated that their research in respect of the example given was not valid, and this does raise concerns regarding their lack of discipline when submitting content. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:45, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

This is the link to Mario's sockpuppets. I was not aware of the "last chance" remark until Sandstein mentioned it, but then picked it up from his block log. Dahn (talk) 23:06, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Reference Desk play

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

No administrator intervention required at this time.  Skomorokh  18:18, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure if this is the correct place to ask, but could someone please review the comments this editor User talk:Baseball Bugs is making at the Reference Desk. it's just my opinion, but the comments tend to be less than helpful. Thank you. 173.103.148.35 (talk) 13:52, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I notified Bugs about this. Shinerunner (talk) 13:59, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I like helping to answer sincere and thoughtful questions. Much of the "noise" on the ref desks comes from stupid questions, homework questions, questions from users who haven't bothered trying Google or wikipedia itself, trivia quizzes posing as questions, deliberately baiting questions, and from IP addresses with lots of warnings on their pages, lecturing others on how to behave - or from IP addresses never heard from before (such as the one that filed this posting). FYI, when we used to go to the zoo, we fed marshmallows to the polar bears and it seemed to make them happy. So it could work for the eskimoes also. Baseball Bugs carrots 14:00, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Some questions might be better being asked elsewhere, anyway. Cheers, TFOWR 14:06, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

See , ,both from Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk#Is_the_reference_desk_now_a_joke_site_and_a_chatroom

Also Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk#User_Baseball_Bugs83.100.250.79 (talk) 14:21, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

It seems that attempts by Nimur here are not sinking in. He has taken your example and demonstrated on the reference desk page how help should be offered. I am at a loss as to how comments like are at all helpful. Possibly the antics and side discussions could be made on a User talk page or offsite. 174.146.122.79 (talk) 14:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm having a friendly discussion with Nimur on this topic. The comments of drive-bys like yourself and the original complainant, I don't care about. One of the sincere and thoughtful questions on a ref desk recently led to my creating an article, which actually drew a compliment from another editor. One compliment is worth the sniping of a hundred drive-bys. Baseball Bugs carrots 14:28, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

This edit is noise.

also this

This is typical of the type of response that the editor provides that caused me to asked them to stop previously

83.100.250.79 (talk) 14:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

That complaint is downright insulting. The questioner, apparently lacking imagination, asked the help desk for an icon of The Truth. Superman always tells the truth. I could have said Jesus also. And I also could have said something like what TFOWR said below - in fact I almost did, but I tried to give a possibly helpful answer instead. Baseball Bugs carrots 14:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes. It would have been much better if Bugs had said "Superman always did his own damn homework". Subtlety isn't always that helpful. Cheers, TFOWR 14:33, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Why are there so many IP editors commenting on this? I suggest looking at the IPs for possible socks. Sephiroth storm (talk) 14:40, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

83.100.250.79 (talk · contribs) appears to be a regular and prolific contributor to the Reference Desk, so my first instinct is that their comments are in good faith. 173.103.148.35 (talk · contribs) and 174.146.122.79 (talk · contribs) both have one contribution each (both here, above). I'd guess they're part of Bugs' "fan club". Cheers, TFOWR 14:44, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Ditto for 173.103.196.18 (talk · contribs) - one contrib, here, below. I suspect we may see a fair few 173.X.Y.Y and 174.X.Y.Z IPs over the next hour or so. Cheers, TFOWR 14:46, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I have been directly communicating to BaseballBugs on my talk page about this issue; moments later, I suppose it got reported here. I think we have made the point to him, and I hope he agrees that we can solve this issue without a block or any other administrator's intervention, but this really depends on how cooperative Baseball Bugs is willing to be. His contributions are sometimes helpful and are appreciated. However, he has continued to make disruptive joke commentary on the reference desk despite repeated discussions, messages, and eventually warnings. On my talk page, he brought up some valid concerns, but his repeated joke posts are breaking Misplaced Pages to make a point. I sincerely hope we can resolve this without needing a block. Nimur (talk) 14:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

(To Bugs)Please don't take this as a personal attack, but you seem to be diverting the issue and examples. It is my opinion that Nimur is attempting to show you how to answer questions at the Ref Desk. I am at a loss as to how your responses to him there, or your responses here justify your edits at the Reference Desk. This is not an attempt to discredit you, but to try to get the reference desk answers back on track. 173.103.196.18 (talk) 14:42, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Reporting an editor who posts a complaint on the talk page for harrassment does make me happy - is there any reason for this?

Also comments like this "Given that your own talk page is filled with warnings, you had best keep your complaints to yourself" , "So enough of your patronizing lectures already". . I don't see why anyone who complains has to have their legitimacy called into question. 83.100.250.79 (talk) 14:48, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Anyone who files a complaint opens the door to scrutiny of their own behavior. You don't get to file a complaint and then pretend to be an angel yourself. Regarding the AIV posting, which you conveniently failed to mention I later withdrew, the name and behavior squares with that of recent harassing socks. But I decided to leave it be. Baseball Bugs carrots 15:51, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

(To TFOWR) Yes, I am on a dynamic IP. If you have concerns that I am being disruptive or trolling please address them directly. I would ask that my comments also be considered as sincere, the references reviewed and if I have a legitimate complaint, that it is given its fair due. Otherwise you are just sidetracking from the issue at hand, and creating unneeded drama. 173.103.110.221 (talk) 14:59, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

My concern is that there's no way to determine your editing history. DHCP is all well and good, but resetting the IP address with every edit seems extremely unusual - is that direct enough for you? Cheers, TFOWR 15:03, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

(To TFOWR)I agree with you that it is difficult at best to review my history. resetting the IP is not something that I have control of, it is dynamic and controlled by the ISP as far as I know. I stand by my original question, which I feel is fair to ask. I would appreciate your opinion on that issue as well. 173.103.0.244 (talk) 15:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Registering an account would neatly solve your IP problem. Just a suggestion... OK. Back on topic... Without seeing your editing history - or receiving any explanation from you as to the reasons for your involvement in this - it's impossible to know whether you're legitimately involved or simply trolling. Nimur is addressing the matter, so why add to the heat and noise here? After raising the issue here, why not simply sit back and let due process take its course? As it is, by posting repeatedly you've caused (unintentionally, I'd hope) 83.100.250.79's motivations to be called into question - which is why I'm still in the conversation, since I regard 83.100.250.79 as legitimately involved, even if I don't necessarily agree with them. Cheers, TFOWR 15:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to suggest this ] specifically this:

We expect responses that not only answer the question, but are also factually correct, and to refrain from responding with answers that are based on guesswork. Ideally, answers should refer (link) to relevant Misplaced Pages articles, or otherwise cite reliable sources.

would be a start. The editor isn't particularily at fault in other ways - but some of the answers they provide, are no good at all.83.100.250.79 (talk) 15:50, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

"No good at all" is strictly a personal opinion. Baseball Bugs carrots 15:52, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

And while those guidelines are indeed a good start, they are inadequate to the frequent situations of questioners posting extremely vague or broad questions, which require asking questions back, or making guesses, in the hope that the original questioner (who often is never heard from again), can come back and clarify. They also don't address certain issues, like certain users posting questions they already know the answers to, just to post a trivia quiz there. Some users have suggested banning users who ask such questions. Baseball Bugs carrots 16:02, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

What is this  ?

Why do you keep doing this - that has nothing to do with the answer, it is irrelevent to the reference desk.83.100.250.79 (talk) 16:18, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Nor did their responses. Yet you didn't go schlepping them to ANI, did you? Baseball Bugs carrots

I count at least 5 behavioral complaints on your own talk page. Go clean up your own act before addressing me again. Baseball Bugs carrots 16:30, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I didn't report you to this page, I left a message on your talk page, and a message on the reference desk talk pages. What other editors do doesn't make what you do ok.

Also if I get a complaint I try to improve. Why don't you do the same? 83.100.250.79 (talk) 16:39, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Why is this at the administrators' noticeboard? Reference desk etiquette should be discussed at WT:RD, and if there's some irresolvable issue, take it to dispute resolution or a community noticeboard.  Skomorokh  16:14, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

It's here because a one-shot, drive-by IP decided to bring it here. Baseball Bugs carrots 16:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Issue is in discussion at WP:RD. This discussion should be closed, to allow resolution to work out in the appropriate place. Sephiroth storm (talk) 17:23, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

This is nonsense. I'm also a regular contributor to the RDs and see Bugs there frequently. He makes jokes, so what? Grow a sens of humor. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 17:48, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Bf20204 Personal Attacks after blocking And new editor account for block evasion?

Bf20204 (talk · contribs) Ba20204 (talk · contribs)

Hi all - after a 72 hour blocking for outing, BF20204 has returned with some pointed personal attacks and accusations of bad faith and other interesting points here here and here. Also, he has done some similar edits to an archived discussion from this page here here and a couple of other times. For the record, he used personal knowledge of who I am rather than an internet search - I figured out his identity on my own and he is a former co-worker who saw where I have edited from (countries) to figure out who I am. Does a neutral party want to take a look and see if he has crossed the line again? Bevinbell 14:12, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I notice that my links were not working - http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:United_States_Foreign_Service&oldid=313348292 and http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3AUnited_States_Foreign_Service&diff=313350537&oldid=313348432 and http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive562&oldid=312964573 and related editing by the editor after his ban. Bevinbell 14:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Wait, I just noticed he has a new account - Ba20204 but signing with his old user name! Is this block evasion/sock puppet/or weird new user account creation? Bevinbell 14:35, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

It's notable to look at the Special:Contributions/Ba20204 as he was actually editing the archives, and admits to having created a new account "First, this is Bf20204. I did not create another account to circumvent the system. I created an account to respond to the accusations leveled against me." I have left the archives untouched so y'all can see (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:01, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I undid the edits to the archive, lest it go stale and undo become impossible. I wonder if it would be possible to set up an edit filter to prevent that sort of thing? Looie496 (talk) 17:56, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok, the two accounts are the same person - as admitted by them.

• They received a 72hr block on Sept 8 (User:Bf20204)
• They created a new account on the 10th (inside the block time) and editing the archived ANI discussion (User:Ba20204)
• On the 12 (outside of the 3 day block) they used the new account to continue the same negative activities
• As of today, they're back on the original account, although they appear to have "given up the fight"

So, we have Block Evasion and further disruption, but it may have stopped. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:19, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi - well, he has professed that he is moving on, but he has done some unfortunate things. I left a response on the article talk page as I did not want his comments just hanging there for folks not privy to the history. Given the discussion on ANI over his ban for outing, there was a call for an indef ban (which I do not think is warranted) based upon his OR and POV edits and outing attempt. I hope an admin would take his block evasion and new account creation seriously (I don't know what to think about editing an archived ANI discussion) as well as his picking up the negative activities again - whats the point of blocks if they are evaded? Maybe some additional ban and/or warning on multiple account editing and block evasion? Thanks Bevinbell 14:30, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Esnupi

Esnupi (talk · contribs)

Yet another strange case, I fear. This is an instance of an apparenly well-meaning individual with a limited grasp of English who is posting machine translated Brazilian place substubs en masse from what I assume is the Brazilian Misplaced Pages. Some of these appear to be from other sources as well. He's finally stopped after a few requests from other users, but the fact remains that we have in excess of one hundred nearly incomprehensible and/or subminiature stubs. I'm about to invoke WP:BOLD and use the mass delete to just blow these out, but I wanted to get some opinions first. My opinion is they should go; they look awful, they took no effort to create and aren't even suitable for a starting place on a proper article. Any suggestions? Thanks. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 14:41, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

• I'd go with that. I've taken a look, they are dreadful and unless someone wants to wipe the text and replace it with real English, go for mass delete. Dougweller (talk) 15:21, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
• Actually it's the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. (We divide by language of article prose.) And yes, for one case, São Sebastião (satellite city) is definitely a machine translation of pt:São Sebastião (Distrito Federal) — even down to the retention of the Portuguese abbreviations such as "DF" and the spurious HTML that caused ==History== to not parse as a heading (which I've just corrected). Uncle G (talk) 17:34, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
• FYI - He is starting to create articles again, an article about every 3 minutes. Clubmarx (talk) 17:37, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

The latest ones are essentially just massive walls of text. There may be something coherent in there, but I'm not diving in to find it. Also, unless I'm reading it wrong this seems to be a personal attack. HalfShadow 17:46, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

This editor must be blocked until they acknowledge the problem, and all edits deleted, unless someone wants to take the time to fix those messes. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 17:51, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

The articles could be worthwhile if we turn them into basic stubs, "<Name of town> is a town/city in the state of <name of state>, Brazil", with the geographic stub tags. I'm willing to do a few dozen of them. 94.212.31.237 (talk) 17:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

It would be nicer if we could just get him to at least stop or at the very least format his text. He has to understand that every time he tosses one of those...things...up, someone has to clean it up. HalfShadow 18:02, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

That would be nice. But how could he learn this on the English WP site when his responses have been barely understandable? He should be blocked. Clubmarx (talk) 18:06, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

er? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 21:13, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Hello, I'm a Brazilian editor and I saw the notice of this issue at WP:BR's talk page. I was taking a look at his talk page, and I could deduce "go to be fuck" was a machine translation of "vai se fuder", which means "fuck you". In other words, that was a personal attack. Also, with "of the one tesao to type these archives", I believe he meant "I'm having a real good time typing these articles", in a quite bad faith sense. Would you guys like me to try a friendly Portuguese language approach? Victão Lopes 00:16, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely. Thank you, Victão. I just looked at some of his latest "creations" and they are even more incomprehensible than ever. That machine-translated "fuck you" is going to earn him a timeout and I'll go ahead and do a mass delete right now. These are just getting out of hand. Thanks to all of you for the advice. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 03:49, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I concur with this approach.  Sandstein  04:13, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

No objections. I cleaned up somewhat one of the early posts (which I now took the liberty to restore) but it it didn't help to set a good example rather to the contrary.--Tikiwont (talk) 08:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Richboyliang

This editor has added impersonating an RfA candidate at different RfA discussion to his vandalism and creation of a User talk page for a non-existent account. The RFA deception is a major red flag that this will not be a productive editor. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:41, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Minor nitpick: the Dr joehigashi account does exist; he just signed up today. He hasn't yet made any edits though. -- Soap /_{Contributions} 14:51, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Richboyliang probably spotted that account creation and may have created the User talk page with a garbled welcome message in the edit summary, thinking that was the right thing to do. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:57, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

There is the possibility that the new user doesn't know how to "sign" comments and was simply basing his comment on the RfA on that of another editor. It is unlikely, however, particularly since newbies finding RFA at the start is rare. Suggest keeping an eye on him. Ironholds (talk) 14:50, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm watching his Talk page and will check his contributions periodically.Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:59, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

This kind of disruptive editing, coupled with obvious vandalism from earlier in his editing history, suggests to me that he is not here to contribute productively. I have blocked him indefinitely. NW (Talk) 15:50, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

User Njirlu

Persistent fringe-POV pushing over the past few days in Aromanian language, Template:Aromanians and Aromanians. Reverted by several users, who explained in his talk page why his edits were unacceptable, and called upon him to produce reliable sources for them or at least discuss changes first. He did not, and was already blocked once for his persistence, but continued in the same pattern after being unblocked. He was again warned repeatedly of the consequences of his continued reverts (breaking WP:3RR many times) and especially yesterday in very clear terms by User:Dahn, but today he continues in the same pattern. Constantine ✍ 15:08, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I obviously endorse Constantine's (Cplakidas's) assessment. Njirlu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has already received a temporary block for his edits, but continues unabashed (depsite repeated claims to have reformed himself). The first problem anyone notices with him is that he can barely speak English. The second is that he adds the same fringe theory to countless related articles, basically inventing an ethnic terminology unattested in English, and which is misspelled even in Aromanian. He does the same on several project, regardless of whether he speaks the language in question or not. In addition, he has recently behgun adding political symbolism he thinks should represent the Aromanians to various pages, even those were no political symbolism is required or desirable. If you read his justification for this behavior on the talk page, all you'll encounter is a nationalist manifesto which seems not to be interested at all in wikipedia rules - no matter how many times he is advised to read the policies and guidelines.

By now, Njirlu has been no excuse for claiming he is uninformed about how wikipedia works, and he has already been blocked once for his disruptive editing on September 8 (note his fruitless appeal to the block is justified as "in the name of the truth"). This is POV warring and disruption at its most basic level. Dahn (talk) 17:20, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I have issued a 48 h block for edit warring. If this pattern of conduct continues, it can be reported to WP:EWN for escalating blocks or to WP:AE if a more general sanction under WP:ARBMAC is required.  Sandstein  04:10, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Article Ezekiel Emanuel

I am not sure if the is the right spot, but I didn't see anywhere else to post it. The primary editor of this page had been (probably still is) doing a large amount of original research and synthesis of material. Some of this I have removed, but it appears that he primary solution is to include huge sections of blockquoting that appear that they may violate copyright issues. I don't know the explicit rules regarding taking lage quotes from articles so I thought I would get an answer here. Arzel (talk) 15:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

You need to link the editor to the relevant guidelines/policies instead of just 'giving up' so easily.--Otterathome (talk) 01:53, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't have time to deal with this editor, and I wanted to make sure that I wasn't making a false statement on the copyvio. Arzel (talk) 15:12, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

MLS Cup Templates

Following this discussion, JPG-GR (talk · contribs) concluded that said templates should be deleted. However, two days after the discussion was closed, the templates remain undeleted. JPG-GR appears to have gone on a wiki-break, so I am posting here in the hope that another admin will be able to delete the templates in his/her stead. Regards, GiantSnowman 15:48, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

He was probably waiting to have all the links to them removed, which has now been done. I've deleted them. Cheers. lifebaka++ 16:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Cheers! GiantSnowman 16:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Jimintheatl Incivility and other behaviors.

At the beggining of this week I was involved in a sockpuppet investigation where I wrongly named 2 people in a string of sockpuppets as a sockpuppet. I tried to calmly and politely explained my rationale in the nominations. ]]. I've had nothing but personal attacks and incivility since then from this user. He has been counseled by others his behaviors are inappropriate. He continues to make abusive edit summaries and attacks on not only my page but others as well.User talk:Evans1982. It would appear that he is also exhibiting edit warring behavior so we might as well knock out two birds with one stone. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:13, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps a look in the mirror might find the problem here, rushing aroung again templating at random and tossing accusation around willy nilly. Off2riorob (talk) 16:19, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Amen to that. If the accusing user had acted civilly in the first place, or followed WP:SOCKDONTASSUME, he could have avoided irritating several users, not just me. Jimintheatl (talk) 16:29, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment Are you a new user? that is what that article is about. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:35, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps this isn't a case where I did something wrong. May I ask why every post you've made to me or egarding me has been negative? Have I been rude to you or offended you in some way? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:23, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I am cool with you, I have been following the edits regarding this issue and thought you could have handled the issue a bit smoother. I have informed user Evans 1982 of the thread here. Off2riorob (talk) 16:27, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I will be the first to admit that I need smoothing in places. Maybe you can help me out so I can understand how I could have handled this differently. I tried to use the guiding policies in Sockpuppets and had narrowed down a sock farm that had 3 articles in common. I made the nominations and several were proven to be confirmed socks. Jim and Evans were not. Both were a little iritated buy the nomination and I did try to explain why I did so and apolagized. Evans eventually dropped it. I tried to admonish Jim by removing his further attacking comments and finally moved from a revert, to vandal revert and finally a warning for refactoring my talk page and an attacking edit summary. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:32, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Smoothing? You and me both, brother...As for refactoring your talk page? I wanted to be done with whatever it was that drew me into your field of vision and you asked me to leave your talk page (by the way, the troll accusation was not very civil), so I removed my comments from your talk page. Again, I'm done with you; but you don't seem to want to drop "it," whatever "it" is and for whatever reasons.Jimintheatl (talk) 16:45, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I have also left a message to inform Jimintheat of this thread. Off2riorob (talk) 16:35, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

If you look right above yours he was notified by me per the requirements here. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:35, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I see it now, thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 16:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I guess one of my main questions is where in the Don't assume a Sock article allows personal attacks or gives justification to act like the world is ending. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:44, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I can understand why Jimintheatl was annoyed by Hell in a Bucket's accusation. I was absolutely annoyed myself; especially that my userpage was marked. But seriously Jimintheatl, let it go! Hell in a Bucket made a mistake. He/she doesn't deserve to be badgered over the issue. -- Evans1982 (talk) 16:51, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Ditto on the annoyed part, but I'm more than willing to forgive and forget. And I want to be done with it So we are here for....what exactly?Jimintheatl (talk) 16:58, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

This issue was enlarged and continued and brought here by Hellinabucket reporting jimintheat1 not the other way around. Off2riorob (talk) 16:55, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

MAybe you should read through the comments on all pages again. That is so off the wall it's not even funny. Go back look at my page history. My last comment on this was I had nothing left to discuss and then didn't other to revert he further attacks and oedit summaries. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:58, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok that is fine that you want to be done with it. I do and have since I left the note that there was nothing left to discuss.

"I guess you should read more about the policy regrding civility then because nothing in my actions were uncivil. If you can't accept a simple explanation you are lost and there is no further point to this dialogue. Sorry you chose to act like a little kid. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 13:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC) " You persisted 3 times after that with attacks in either your edits or your summaries. Also the talk page is a record of our discussion. You aren't permitted to remove your own comments on others page after they are left. You can feel free to strike but removing them is not allowed per policy. If you want to end this, I 'm one hundred percent fine with that, I nominated you in error within policy. I'm sorry if that offended you but this is not a personal thing for me I used the guiding principals in declaring my suspicions, you aren't a sock puppet. Would you be willing to drop this with me now? I am one hundred percent ready and willing to on my side if you are. We can both come away from the table with a lesson learned. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:54, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. And I'm sorry I got as pissed and acted as pissy as I did. Is this the part where we sing Kumbaya .....Jimintheatl (talk) 17:02, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

It's cool man, I have a temper too but have to majorly control it on Misplaced Pages. I dunno the words to Kumbaya but we can roll a spliff and listen to a Dead song would work just as well. Thank you for resolving this with me and I'm sorry it progressed as far as it did from my part as well. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:08, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Here's one, from 94, a year before Jerry moved on So many roads Off2riorob (talk) 17:18, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Block evasion for User:I cant think of a name 994

I cant think of a name 994 (talk · contribs) was initially blocked for vandalism and for repeatedly inserting text into Blackout Ripper. They then created another account, Albsol88t (talk · contribs), which was subsequently blocked for ban evasion. The article was protected for a week, but after it wore off, the following accounts have shown up on the page and have been readding the same text:

• Noname8600 (talk · contribs)
• Bigone2 (talk · contribs)
• Howto8008 (talk · contribs)
• HAHAhahaooooooo (talk · contribs)

Per WP:DUCK, they are almost certainly all the same user. — HelloAnnyong 16:49, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

The original indef blocks were also for harassment and personal attacks. The new accounts are repeating that same behavior. DreamGuy (talk) 17:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I just added another username to the list, per this edit. — HelloAnnyong 17:14, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Looks like an even earlier indef blocked account I never heard of was linked to all these by checkuser and all accounts have been blocked, with the article semi-protected to prevent more new accounts popping up to continue the disruptive edits. Thanks to everyone who looked into it. DreamGuy (talk) 00:46, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Angsc09

Moved from WP:AN, Woody (talk) 16:59, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I would like to report this user for repeated vandalism and going against consensus, repeatedly having edit wars and starting article by bypassing redirecting by adding a extra capital to article name.

Angsc09 (talk · contribs)

The article in question is Monster Buster Club the article they have bypassed is List of Monster Buster Club characters they made a article List of Monster Buster Club Characters they add in fan made stuff into the article even when presented with sources that show they are wrong. They consistently mess up the above article either as user or ip address and it getting quite hard to undo the work now and i having to revert back to older version to undo it. The above extra page i have now redirected as well but i suspect they will remove the redirection. not sure what can be done but if someone can do something i be grateful. I have leave friendly message in the past asking to stop it or to provide sources they ignored it and i think i have left a few warnings recently but they still ignore it.--Andrewcrawford (talk - contrib) 16:43, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Your post contained 21 spelling errors -- I have fixed them to make it more readable. Please use a spell-checker when you post again. Regards, Looie496 (talk) 17:34, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:BITE. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 17:55, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Please read my userpage you will fidn i am dsylexic and spell checker are useless, because how i spell is how it seems to me. i understadn what you are saying it makes it easier for people to read but i cant do much about it.--Andrewcrawford (talk - contrib) 18:06, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Need help with rollbacks

68.116.43.92 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) appears to have spammed numerous articles with a "criticism" section regarding the benefits of alcohol consumption. Example. I could use help cleaning this up. Thanks! Katr67 (talk) 17:46, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Apparently, it's all done. Mass rollback only reverted two edits. Regards, Javért  |  19:57, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I got impatient. Thanks for helping! Katr67 (talk) 20:45, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

No problem. :) Regards, Javért  |  22:34, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

English Defence League

English Defence League (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is in the news a bit at the moment, leading to the usual problems. They are a far-right group who have been involved in multiple demonstrations against Muslims. Yorkshirian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been discussed on the noticeboards before, he is an English nationalist. Recent edits include unsourced POV by JzG - note that the material removed was all sourced from BBC News and The Guardian, which are usually regarded as reliable sources on matters of British political reporting. Oh, and we also have a competition between English Defence League and English Defense League as the article title - obviously the British English spelling is correct as this is an English group. EDL come from the football hooligan community and even the ] distances itself from them, but of course there will be attempts at airbrushing out insignificant and trivial things like the fact that a Minister of the British Government likened them to Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists. Obviously we can't have that, can we, especially when reported by the BBC - that is "unsourced POV" apparently. Unless you happen to look at the front page of the BBC News website which prominently links "Denham condemns right-wing groups". Looks to me like a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT vs. WP:RS. Guy (Help!) 17:47, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

This seems like a content dispute, Guy. The editing is not so heated as to need protection, and no-one is acting so disruptively as to merit a block as far as I can see. Unless there's specific admin action you're looking for, I suggest you take it to WP:NPOVN or the content noticeboard.  Skomorokh  18:55, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

There are, in my opinion, long-term issues with Yorkshirian's activist editing, and I am not here much at present. This is a call for more eyes on an article that's likely to see significant traffic. Guy (Help!) 20:21, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Er what? Do you have any claim for your personal attack and lack of good faith, to claim I am a "nationalist" of any stripe? I do not support any political creed which come from the French Revolution, just to keep note. On Misplaced Pages, the WP:NPOV policy is central to the project, this extends to all articles, that includes ones on subjects which British communists are rabidly opposed to. Misplaced Pages isn't a podium for the far-left, its a neutral project. - Yorkshirian (talk) 20:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. That means that edits like this, in which you suggest that the UAF "opposed the group with riots against the police" and that "The Muslims and the far-left rioted" (neither claim being supported by the references provided) shouldn't be repeated. Stick to what the sources say and you'll be fine, but this edit seems to have at best WP:OR, and even some serious WP:POV, creeping in. I'm also unclear why the Communities Secretary needs to be described as "left wing", or the SWP need to be labelled as Trotskyite. Just because something's true (and I seriously dispute that Denham is left-wing, but that's subjective...) doesn't make it encyclopaedic or notable. Readers who need to know about the SWP (poor souls...) can click the link, but the Trotskyite label is irrelevant in the context of the Stop the Islamification of Europe and English Defence League articles. Cheers, TFOWR 23:28, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Though some of these edits are of concern, I agree with Skomorokh that this specific content dispute is not suited for discussion here at ANI. Any longterm issues are perhaps best discussed at WP:RFC/U or in another dispute resolution forum.  Sandstein  04:04, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Return of abusive SPS violating ArbCom sanctions

User:FalunGongDisciple was previously blocked indefinitely by me for vandalism to articles under ArbCom sanctions and a possibly offensive username. Today, User:FalunDafaDisciple showed up doing much the same thing, including removing the block on the previously blocked FalunGongDisciple. Unfortunately, he at least previously edited from a school's IP, which would make blockiing that IP problematic. Do we have grounds to block the new obvious sockpuppet for vandalism and sockpuppetry? John Carter (talk)

• Blocked. --jpgordon 20:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Request block for 74.93.128.121

User talk:74.93.128.121 was given a last warning 4 May 2009 (UTC), but has continued to vandalize, as shown by the recent edit at Irresistible grace.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 20:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Mario, but our Princess is in another castle. HalfShadow 20:45, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Halfshadow, but Luigi has come to rescue her this time.--Sky Attacker Here comes the bird! 20:47, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

This is not the place to report vandals. I have moved this request to WP:AIV. Intelligentsium 20:46, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

It's a school IP. Block. End of story.--Sky Attacker Here comes the bird! 20:49, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

It should have been reported to AIV, chummer; that's what HalfShadow and Intelligentsium are getting at. -Jeremy 21:06, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

IP vandal 88.233.4.217

This user insists on adding Turkish alphabet to irrelevant pages (like cities of Ukraine, Greece, Iran, Macedonia,...) and deleting referenced to Kurds in Kurdish-related articles. In recent days, it has done the same thing by using other IPs (including 88.233.168.53 and 88.233.68.134), so, semi-protection of those pages might be a good idea . Alefbe (talk) 21:25, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Treviso

It appears that Abdul Qayyum Ahmad (talk · contribs) has copied the article Treviso F.B.C. 1993, pasted the content in the new article A.S.D. Treviso 2009 and turned the former into a redirect to the latter. As a result, the full editing history is not visible, which doesn't comply with GFDL, IIRC. I don't know which is more appropriate: deleting the new article and moving the old article to the new name, or deleting the new article and starting a move request on the talk page.94.212.31.237 (talk) 23:18, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I have notified the relevant WikiProject of this discussion. 94.212.31.237 (talk) 23:27, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Alefbe reverted the cut and paste move. Abdul ought to be notified of this discussion and of how to (request to) move articles.  Skomorokh  23:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I have notified the user. 94.212.31.237 (talk) 23:33, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

In compliance with all other Italian football club articles, I have moved the entire article under the entirely new club denomination of A.S.D. Treviso 2009. History is now preserved, since it is a proper move, and not a mere copy-and-paste of it. In any case, I am unsure this is a kind of issue to be worth of being notified at WP:AN/I; a notification on the Football WikiProject would have probably been quite enough (but this is only my opinion). --Angelo (talk) 23:55, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Sambokim Link spamming, again

see previous here:

Sambokim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) The editor has twice been blocked for repeated insertion of copyvios. He's also been told before not to insert links over and over. The problem is the editor doesn't communicate, and keeps making edits over and over until blocked. His job for the hockey team is english promotion and scouting. Anytime an NHL.com article mentions the ALH or his team he makes sure to run to all the articles and add it as a source,even though there has been no content taken from it. He also edits as an IP, 220.88.45.189 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log). Its a long term IP and often redoes some of his undone edits, or does them first, then he redoes them with his user account. Once again an NHL article was about the ALH and he ran through several articles as his IP and put them in. I undid it, and he came back with his user account to not only put that back in as a reference, but to go to a few other pages and do his normal link spam. This player for example is a new acquisition by his team this year . He indiscriminately just fires links onto the article without considering if they have any place. For example, the last link in that bunch doesn't even talk about the player, it is an old article about the team, he likes to try and add it to every single page he can to help promote the team. This user has a clear conflict of interest and through two blocks he still won't communicate and just continues to be disruptive with his editing and tries to use wikipedia for promotion--Crossmr (talk) 00:30, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

This does not seem to be the conduct for which he was previously blocked (creating copyvios). What he's doing now is inserting an external link, http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=497976, which may indeed be inappropriate per WP:EL, into several hockey player articles. Have you tried discussing this particular issue with him?  Sandstein  03:59, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

"He's also been told before not to insert links over and over. The problem is the editor doesn't communicate,..." It seems he has tried discussing. There are a few of these accounts rolling around lately, inserting spam links, creating copy and paste copyvio articles, ignoring all attempts to communicate. <>Multi-Xfer<> (talk) 04:18, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Several attempts have been made to communicate with him. Several sections have been started on talk pages, edit summaries have been used. The user wasn't blocked for linking spamming, but he's been linking spamming for at least a year. Its been reverted so many times. The user is Samuel H. Kim. He was blocked for inserting copyvios, but the reason he was inserting the copyvios was promotional in nature, the same as what he's using these links for. Here you can see as far back as last december he was trying to randomly insert links into the article He does make some helpful edits, like updating the roster, but the majority of the rest of his contributions generally consist of link spam and copyvios. He's being paid to promote the team and he can't seem to help himself. In july his edits to the ALH article itself were solely to promote Halla and then insert a few random sites into the references section , sources which were written 2-3 years prior to any of the events he detailed in the article body. I'm also going to privately e-mail you the same e-mail exchange I sent to another administrator. I also had brought up the link spamming in the first complaint. He ended up blocked for copyvios but the linkspamming has been known about since then.--Crossmr (talk) 06:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Possible sockpupetry by Sarandioti-Alarichus

I have made some research, considering the highly suspicious initiative by User:Alarichus on a recent Greek-Albanian dispute. A series of evidence can not be considered just coincidence and points that he is a possible sockpupet of User:Sarandioti .

Evidence

• Sarandioti contributed from May 26 to July 21 ], with an addition of 4 minor edits in a last appearance in August 21. His contribution was considered highly disruptive with wp:npa, civility, 3rr ] ], reaching 6 blocks], with his last one in July 21, plus an one revert limit.

• Alarichus started to contribute to Misplaced Pages from July 20 ], 23 hours before Sarandioti’s last ban. Although complaining in such cases and always making unblock requests, Sarandioti all of the sudden disappeared (just a brief appearance in August 21).

• The time pattern while both accounts were actively contributing: from July 20, 02:36 to July 21 01:27, (23 hours) is very clear that there were not simultaneous contributions from both accounts.

• Both users share the same isp with approximately the same i.p.: a series of reverts by Sarandioti in June 4, while intentionally unlogged in order to evade 3rr in his edit-wars revealed his i.p.: ], as well as Alarichus’ ‘whois’ information in irc simply proves that. As I know their isp provides a dynamic ip address in a limited range, and that’s obvious since Alarichus joins irc:wikipedia-en, with a slightly different ip almost each day.

• A weird evidence of inconsistency is that Alarichus asked for the translation of an off-wiki text from Greek to English (with Latin characters), pretending that he doesn’t know Greek ] . However, his whois info in irc clearly shows that he lives in Greece (Athens). Considering that he joins the irc channel more than a month, with his whois info always pointing to Athens, something is really weird with this situation. By the way Sarandioti spoke Greek very well ] ] and was active in irc too ].

• Alarichus, from 20 July, has a good contribution for a rookie in minor edits in non Greek-Albanian topics. This contribution was not always without being massively reverted ] ], with the reason that his conts were unexplained.

• After becoming a ca. 45 day experienced user he decided to initiate as a ‘third part’ user, a Greek-Albanian dispute in the deletion of the template:Northern Epirus. However, in the process he decided to leave his neutrality and take the part of the one side. Moreover, accused the Greek side for launching a sock-meatpupetry concert. Quite wierd behavior for a determined newcomer in wiki to make such moves.

• In the following wp:ani, he didn’t hesitate to accuse me as a member of an extremist organization that posted a thread off-wiki, being based on a sequence of exaggerated assumptions ] ]. Paradoxically, the same time he carefully avoided any comment against I_Pakapshem, no matter his block history and disruptive contributions. It is sure that a real third part user, would deal with such a situation in a more critical way taking into account history records of both sides. I Pakapshem and Sarandioti were good friends in tag-teaming in the past by the way. Moreover, Sarandioti was used on making empty accusation and reporting users from the first days of his appearance.

• Alarichus made adjustments after ‘being asked from irc’, in template:Northern Epirus, still without explaining a real reason. Most of the template’s articles he deleted were of highly importance for Sarandioti too ], ], ]

• Last but not least both userpages are of similar inspiration: infant A. Hitler and anarchism , satanic eschatological stuff, with a variety of revolutionary extremist style quotes.

I believe, as per User:Factuarius pointed, that these two accounts are used by the same person. It's really hard to believe the opposite, but everyone can extract his own results and opinion.Alexikoua (talk) 00:51, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

• Um, WP:SPI is that way......Tim Song (talk) 01:46, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

AfD: Aggtown

• It appears that User:Cunard, a non-admin without closure rights, took it upon his/herself to relist a closed AfD. THE AMERICAN METROSEXUAL 01:05, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
  • It was never closed, unless I am looking at the wrong AfD. Protonk (talk) 01:16, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
    • It's now closed (by User:GlassCobra) , so the issue is moot. Tim Song (talk) 01:31, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Anyone can relist an article if there hasn't been enough talk after a certain period of time, not just admins.--Crossmr (talk) 01:36, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Osapkaopjdisaj

Osapkaopjdisaj (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was given a final warning about copyright problems a week ago. Judging from his behaviour since, the concept didn't sink in at all.—Kww(talk) 02:46, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Blocked for 72 hours--I was thisclose to blocking him indef, but some of his uploads have been within policy. Next time it'll be indef ... I'm about to leave an additional warning on his talk page. Blueboy96 03:00, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Please block 124.253.115.133

See their user acct. Its only two edits took huge chunks out of memory hierarchy. I'm reverting them. CpiralCpiral 04:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

What's the use if those are its only two edits at the mo? -Jeremy 04:39, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

This request doesn't make sense - why hasn't this anon been warned like any other account that does the same thing? Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:58, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

It's takes four warnings, and then the vandal has to vandalize again. Besides, this should have been at AIV, not here.Abce2|This isnot a test 05:08, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I put a welcome template on the IP (maybe a waste but hey), and one warning template for removal of content.- sinneed (talk) 05:11, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Can someone place a "resolved" tag?Abce2|This isnot a test 06:41, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

 Done.— Dædαlus 07:07, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Inurhead continued incivility and edit warring at The Hurt Locker

Inurhead has continued a months long edit warring and incivility at The Hurt Locker, continuously reverting all edits to the article to his preferred version, sometimes bit a time, sometimes wholescale. He has displayed extreme bias regarding the film, attacking anything he perceives as negative about it. Attempts at discussions have filled the talk page and clearly show that consensus is against him, but he ignores it and continues his disruptive edits and accuses anyone who comes to the discussion as being either a meat puppet, a sockpuppet, or a canvassed votes when the harassed editors trying to work on the articles came to the Films project (per dispute resolution) for additional views.

He has already been left numerous warnings, and been reported to 3RR twice and to ANI twice. First ANI, in July, he got a warning. First 3RR happened August 6th and he was again warned. Next 3RR, August 14th, resulted in his being blocked 31 hours. Soon as he was unblocked, he continued. At this point, the situation had escalated from a disagreement between 3 to Inurhead ignoring the comments, suggestions, warnings, and actions of half a dozen editors or more. I myself reported him here August 16th and he was blocked 72 hours. Block expired, he went right back to the same stuff all over again.

Administrative review and help seriously needed. His actions continue to hamper the legitimate improvement work being done by some 5-6 editors. I have left notices at the talk pages of who I believe to be the major editors involved in the conflict informing them of this discussion, in addition to Inurhead. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 04:58, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

To add to the above, the problem edits go back to mid-2008, when Inurhead first began editing articles such as Hurt Locker and related pages such as Jeremy Renner. The edits reflect a pattern of non-encyclopedic rewrites to focus on only positive comments; a lack of willingness to collaborate when consensus turns against his preferred version; and a tendency to use personal attacks against anyone who disagrees with him. I've spent the better part of a year having to watchlist the Hurt Locker article to keep abreast of the frequent changes; now that regulars from Wikiproject Film are involved there, Inurhead has expanding his pattern of attack to include unfounded criticisms of some of the most established contributors from that project. --Ckatz_spy 05:23, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

This is entirely untrue. There is a gang of hostile editors that have recently taken ownership of the page and have tag teamed to revert every one of my contributions and/or changes. I made a suggested change tonight by one of them and yet I'm still being attacked by the above hostile editor. They have tried to lure me into 3RR several times by tag team reverting my contributions. Tonight I did not fall for their trap. Collectonian above, lists several times that I have been "warned". But there were only two times. She or he makes it sound like it was more. Again, this is being warned by contributors who were obviously canvassed to come and edit war and revert things I had contributed. I ask that User:Collectonian and User:Ckatz and User:Erik and SoSaysChappy be blocked for tag teaming and trying to islolate and attack this contributor, in an attempt to try to provoke, harass, hound and irritate me, with the goal of discouraging my contributions and/or trying to block me permanently. This is totally unacceptible, as I am a good contributor to Misplaced Pages, not a vandal. Strict scrutiny must always be applied when blocking people and it hasn't been, in my case. Again, I am not a vandal and was contributing to this page long before this group of hostile minority-majority editors came and overtook the page. Misplaced Pages is not an "elitist" club for hostile demi-administrators and bureaucrats. Every person should feel welcome to contribute without being isolated, attacked and having all of their contributions constantly deleted. Inurhead (talk) 05:34, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Every person should feel welcome to contribute, but equally, if they edit articles in the way that you're doing (removing criticism and starting the reception section with "The Hurt Locker has been very universally acclaimed among critics", copying and pasting, moving the plot into the lede section, and using unreliable sources), then they should not be surprised if their edits are reversed. You are not being tag-teamed; your edits are being reverted because they are wrong. If you keep disrupting the article, then it is only going to lead to another block or a topic ban. I'd strongly suggest discussing all your changes on the talkpage before making them. Black Kite 06:28, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I want to add that it would be fair to block Collectonian for making false reports and for mischaracterizing the situation. I did not commit 3RR tonight and Collectonian is clearly trying to make it look like I did, when I didn't. He or she did not cite any disruptions from the past 24 hours and the ones he or she does cite are weeks old, and were again, when I was tricked into 3RR by their tag teaming. Mischaracterizing an editor as having made "bad faith" edits and making threats and false reports is disruptive to Misplaced Pages and must be punished. The minority-majority group which have taken ownership of The Hurt Locker page has been attempting to use policy to "muddy" the water and to get their way. Collectonian has used policies and guidelines to build (or push) a patently false case that this editor is editing in bad faith. Again, strict scrutiny must be used when "whipping" editors with warnings and blocking them. This should be reserved to prevent vandalism, not to prevent good contributions! Misrepresenting these events and being hostile to editors to isolate them is harmful to the Misplaced Pages environment in that it chases good contributors away. If you want to keep chasing people away, then by all means listen to the "Collectonians". Collectonian is the one that is at war. Her comrades, Erik and his cohorts use pettifogging and wikilawyering to try to drive contributors away. Believe me, any contribution I have made to this web site has been discussed, scrutinized, reverted and re-reverted dozens of times. None of my contributions to articles has been vandalism. All of it has been factual and backed up by sources and by what I understood was Wiki policy. They seem to be inventing new policy and policies-within-policies-within-policies to try to thwart new users from contributing and/or so that they can control every film article. It's insanity. Truly. Thanks. - Inurhead (talk) 06:36, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

No-one is getting blocked here. Seriously, think about it - if "any contribution I have made to this web site has been discussed, scrutinized, reverted and re-reverted dozens of times" - and by a number of different editors - could it possibly be that it's your edits that are the problem? Black Kite 06:41, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

No. I've reported on here before that I was being hounded and/or wikistalked by one of them who has admitted as much on the talk page of the article. He's the one who solicted them to attack and isolate me. By the way, I didn't "invent" that the film was "universally acclaimed." It is. Check Metacritic. Check Rotten Tomatoes. It is not "wrong" to state a fact. Facts are stubborn things. All laboriously documented. And the moving of a synopsis into the LEAD section was suggested by one of them! I was merely doing what had already been suggested, which several of them agreed about. Yet, that sends Collectonian into a tailspin! Go figure. They were just looking for another excuse to revert everything I did tonight. And you are letting them get away with it. What they are doing is not in the spirit of Misplaced Pages. They are also doing it to try to distract me away from the article, to waste my time responding to these false attacks. THAT is also against Wiki etiquette. - Inurhead (talk) 06:47, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Just a few things to report from my personal experiences with this editor...

• Says that I more or less don't deserve to make contributions to the article because my first edit to the article was only a month ago. Was also referred to as "SoSaysCrabby" (ho ho). .
• Borderline personal attack: Accused me of being a member of the film's production crew when there is zero evidence of any such conflict of interest.
• Since incivility seems to be a concern here...Calls my edits "boring" (I'm not trying to write the next great spy novel).
• Individually and collectively accused of being a sock puppet (apparently, my creating this User ID in April of 2008 is somehow strong evidence of this, and from what I can tell this user has a chronic habit of hounding users with puppetry accusations without going through the proper channels at WP:SPI.
• Simple childish engagement of mind games: Here is my my message to him about why I reverted to a 600-word (within guideline word limits) from his edit which expanded it to over 1100 words. He promptly deleted the post. Lo and behold, a few days later, he leaves this post explaining why the 600-word summary should be reverted to on his original one-paragraph pre-release synopsis. - SoSaysChappy (talk) 07:23, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Inurhead, have you heard of WP:AGF? You seem to be thinking that anyone saying a word against your edits are involved in an evil plot to remove your contributions. From your comments above, I'm afraid you seem to have taken ownership of the article, and your comments at the article's talk page further strengthen that impression:

• you tell several editors not to revert because they are new to the article
• you say you're going to revert because they made a change when you told them not to
• you tell an editor to go work on some other article when he tries to make a change, and restores to your preferred version
• you dismissed an explanation for an edit saying "too much explaining for what is obviously a revert". I don't see how you can say that when you simply revert others' edits without any discussion at all.

The former 3 are somewhat old, and the 4th is very recent. There are plently of similar edits in between in the edit history if anyone is interested. And just today:

• you removed several comments made by other editors. For what reason, I cannot understand.

As Black Kite said, it looks to me that your editing is creating the problem here. Please discuss on the article talk page (and I mean discuss, not fighting to preserve your version) so that a you people can come up with a balanced version that is agreeable to everyone. If you continue like this, you're practically asking to be blocked and this time it's likely to be indef. ≈ Chamal  ¤ 07:58, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth, despite the problems, Inurhead started a couple of reasonable discussions at Talk:The Hurt Locker, to which I've responded. I think that when so much time is particularly devoted to one article, it's hard to move on. I personally diversify my editing so if for some reason I don't agree with consensus somewhere, I can move on. With the editor's contributions mainly on that one article, though, it is somewhat understandable to take offense at the editors that have swooped in. Still does not excuse the false accusations, which does not help for collaboration. Erik (talk | contribs | wt:film) 12:16, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

As a note, Inurhead also has repeated his personal attacks on my talk page, including the stuff noted above about wanting me blocked for bringing the issue up here again. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 13:06, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

To echo some of the thoughts expressed above, my opinion of Inurhead is mixed. Like everyone else, we've clashed with Inurhead on The Hurt Locker. When I first got involved, he was very much asserting ownership of the article. ANY changes other than his were reverted without discussion and often disparraging or hostile remarks. Even once you got him on a discussion page, it was less than pleasant to deal with Inurhead. He characterizes those that disagree with him as trolls and/or socks. As he's done with Collectonian, he's left less then pleasant messages on my talk page. Eventually, some others from the Film project (Erik, SoSaysChappy and others) got involved with the article. I do not like dealing with Inurhead and his hostility, so with others involved, I've stopped doing anything on the article. It wasn't worth the aggravation, and seemed that others had it under control.

The Hurt Locker has gone from reading like a Hollywood press-release to a pretty respectable article. Much of the informaation has come from Inurhead (nearly all of his edits are directly related to the film, cast or crew), but have needed significant work to shift from press-release to article. Once you can convince Inurhead to actually talk about things, and discuss them rather than attack, he seems to be tolerable to deal with. Ravensfire (talk) 14:04, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Unarchived as Inurhead appears to have just waited for this thread to archive, before once again starting back up with trying to revert The Hurt Locker to his preferred version, continuing to use false edit summaries while trying to remove any criticism of the film. When he was reverted, he left his usual ranting message claiming no one has the "authority" to revert his edits and that he will "report" me for reverting his inappropriate changes that have no consensus and claiming that no one else is disagreeing with him anymore (obviously false from above and the fact that its, oh, 3:30 am so unlikely most others are even awake). -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 08:36, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

• Blocked for a week; this is their third block for the same thing. Clearly Inurhead has taken nothing of the above conversation in, not to mention the warnings on their talk page. Sadly, if editors are determined not to Get The Point, then there's not a lot we can do except stop them from editing. No doubt an unblock request will be along shortly. Black Kite 08:39, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Being completely uninvolved in this, I decided to go look at the talk page, this really bad faith comment by Inurhead really sealed my opinion:

"That the above contributor went "wandering around" after-the-fact trolling for excuses to alter the release date, might show alterior motives. So the release date is going to be changed back to "2009" for those reasons."

Ikip (talk) 08:45, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Pointy edits and/or trolling by User:虞海

Can someone examine the recent mainspace and talkpage edits by 虞海 (talk · contribs) which appear to be clueless, POV pushing or intentional trolling. Here is a summary of events:

1. user adds a false and POV disclaimer to India and Kashmir articles. (the disclaimer is false since the disputed territories are already properly marked in the maps)
2. When his edits are reverted by User:Sandeepsp4u, he explains to Sandeepsp4u that he made the edit because, "See what you did on Page Medog: Is this neutral??". Sandeepsp4u has never edited the page Mêdog County!
3. User 虞海 then readds the false disclaimer to India page, which I revert, with edit-summary, "revert false and pointy disclaimer". I also leave him a note on his talkpage. To this he replies, "I'll do what you did to me to others"
4. He then follows up by removing comments from some 20 odd Chinese/Tibet county pages, copying my edit summary (from point 3) "revert false and pointy disclaimer", which is not applicable to his edits. (sample links , , , , , ...)
5. User:Croquant questions 虞海 about one of the edits and edit summary (from point 4).
6. At this point 虞海 leaves a message on my talk page which copies verbatim parts of, (1) the message I left for him (point 3) and (2) Croquant's message to him (point 5)

I know this patently bizarre behavior may be hard to follow. Can anyone make sense of all this, and wave either the clue- or block-bat ? Abecedare (talk) 09:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

• Seems like another case of Disruptive editing to me. Also, note that I've left a warning on his talk page for not assuming good faith for his edits on the article page of India and I'm now sifting through his contribution/edit history to see if he has made any other malicious edits or editing trend that's worth keeping an eye out for. --Dave1185 (talk) 09:59, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

• Remember the three strike rule, I've just issued the second warning for his addition of unsourced or improperly cited material on History of Mongolia, now you guys just watch out for the third time he conducts another disruptive editing and report here immediately for the Admins to take the appropriate action. Also, you may report to WP:AIV if any of his subsequent edit(s) are/is deemed to be a vandalism edit, this will surely get himself BLOCKED faster than we can say anything here. --Dave1185 (talk) 10:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Imbris

Once again, I'd like to draw attention to this problem. A problem that is NOT going away. Frankly, I'm frustrated at how long this persistent disruption is being ignored. This User has manged to make a joke out of every article or template he has gotten himself involved with. This user is NOT a contributor, all his activities on Misplaced Pages revolve around revert-warring and the many disputes he has started because of his extreme Croatian nationalist views. The User arrives at an article, and does not stop revert-warring and arguing until the other side finally gives-up - regardless of sources, regardless of any mediation efforts, and regardless of the amount of time necessary for him to wear down the guys that are trying to make him see sense. For example

• on Talk:Independent State of Croatia, I have presented university publications specifically supporting my edits. I have been prevented from including the information by User:Imbris. First he demanded the publication's primary source, when I pointed it out he simply raised the bar on evidence and so on.
• on Talk:Hey, Slavs, the argument involving no less than four users (User:No such user, User:Hxseek, User:Ivan Štambuk, and myself) trying to prevent User:Imbris' and his edits (which he constantly revert-warred to push) had lasted for an incredible five continuous months. User:Imbris had simply kepts changing his argument in perpetuity until every single other User simply gave-up. I can't even remember how many times the article got protected because of this farce.
• on Talk:Hey, Slavs again, User:Dottydotdot had (heroically :) gotten involved in an effort to mediate the dispute. Having heard all the arguments she reached a decision that was not to User:Imbris' liking. She recommended this version as "the most neutral & least POV" . User:Imbris simply decided to ignore the results and continue on his merry way with the edit-warring. The excuses, now that the result was against him, were that the mediation had taken "only seven days"(!?) and that "not every single step" had been taken before requesting mediation. :P
• Template:History of Croatia had been made into a husk by User:Imbris' edits. All my efforts to improve it and widen its scope were simply reverted, and I simply do not know what to do? Do I discuss? What's the point? The user's revert is ridiculous and obviously detrimental to the quality of the template, and yet there is no way he will ever budge on this issue.

This user is now revert-warring on no less than six articles and templates (Hey, Slavs, Maltese (dog), Independent State of Croatia, Socialist Republic of Croatia, Template:History of Croatia, and Template:Infobox SFRY). Discussion is utterly and completely pointless, since even if there were a way to present 1st class sources against User:Imbris, it wouldn't change a single thing. When User:Imbris joins in one might as well give-up.

As a "little girl that complains admins all the time", I'm calling again for repercussions against this sort of widespread disruption, or at least mediation that would end the ridiculous conflicts. --DIREKTOR 10:03, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I have notified User:Imbris about this thread. Ale_Jrb 10:17, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

User:71.241.218.107 — hard-core PoV-pushing anon

See Special:Contributions/71.241.218.107. See also the extreme incivility at User talk:71.241.218.107. —12.72.73.42 (talk) 11:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

...a quick look at said talkpage had me lose count of the fuck, fucking, and fuck you's on that page. User knows one synonym, though: shit Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 12:01, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

......actually, there are only seven "fuck"s and one "shit". Tim Song (talk) 12:20, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

What the fuck are you people doing counting expletives? Don't you have any better shit to do? Narrow minded horror at "naughty words" aside, what is the general feel for his article edits, are the POV pushing, or is this a content dispute masquerading as a policy issue? KillerChihuahuaAdvice 12:27, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I think it's a little from column A (content dispute), a little from column B. Shitty behaviour, for sure, but does it deserve scrutiny here? Fuck, no. Seriously, I'd suggest forwarding this to WP:WQA. Cheers, TFOWR 12:32, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

If you're going to infer bad faith, could you at least provide some evidence of where I've been struggling with 71.241.218.107 over content? —12.72.73.42 (talk) 12:41, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I can't speak for the deadly (but small) dog, but for my part I didn't see you as necessarily being in a content dispute - I saw 71.241.218.107 as being in multiple content disputes (and responding to some by denouncing other editors as "neo-nazis" - hence my belief that civility is an issue). Hope that clarifies, and I'll leave it to KC to clarify further if they, in fact, believe that 12.72.73.42 is also involved. Cheers, TFOWR 12:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

He or she isn't simply in content disputes, but is pushing articles in a particular direction, in defiance of established consensus. For example, there is repeated conflict over what to call the award that the Bank of Sweden added to the Nobels, but established consensus has been that it's to be called “the Nobel Prize in Economics”. User:71.241.218.107|71.241.218.107 has participated in discussion at “Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences”, so he's aware of where practice stands. But, after that participation, he or she has repeatedly edited articles to name the Prize as he wishes, and in some or all cases is now edit-warring about it.

There's plainly no masquerade here, even if one somehow doesn't agree with my assessment. —12.72.73.42 (talk) 12:59, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Right, but the point still stands that this isn't an WP:ANI matter. If they're edit warring, take it to WP:AN3 - which is the appropriate forum for reporting edit warring. I'd also suggest that this is pertinent to WP:WQA, too.

(Incidentally, it's always helpful to provide WP:DIFFs demonstrating actionable behaviour - I based my assessment on the user's talk page, and a quick scan through their edits. I'd have been able to steer you towards WP:AN3 earlier if you'd been more specific, and provided diffs, earlier. In the absence of specific things to look at ANI reports often degenerate into chit-chat about counting expletives ;-) )

Cheers, TFOWR 13:06, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I believe that the appropriate set of diffs to determine whether he or she is (as I say) engaging in hard-core PoV-pushing would essentially be all of the edits in his or her edit history. as to taking the matter eslewhere, het, I feel that I've done my part as it is. If admins won't act, that's not on my head. And (sincerely) you have a good day. —12.72.73.42 (talk) 13:12, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea whether or not admins will act - but I reckon there's more chance they'll react if you alert the relevant forum. The admins who hang out at WP:AN3 tend to be more familiar with edit warring, just as the admins who hang out at WP:WQA tend to be more familiar with civility, and the admins who hang out here tend to be more familiar with incidents. Cheers, TFOWR 13:15, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

What's an "incident" and when did AN/I become "administrative notice board for instructing editors to take it to another notice board"? The editor is clearly out to lunch on both content and behavior. I first noticed this odd piece of vandalism and this battleground approach. Pigeonholing specific behavioral outbursts as vandalism, incivility, edit warring, etc., is just a labeling exercise and does not clarify anything here. This is a slightly unusual case, a static IP editor promoting what looks to be an extreme anti-capitalist beliefs, and a genre-hopping range of vituperative reactions to any who try to reign that in, from accusations of bad faith and personal attacks to dogmatic anarchist screeds to simple cursing. I admonished the editor to cool it and was told to fuck off, in so many words. Do we really want to be the type of encyclopedia that tolerates that, or that puts bureaucratic obstacles in front of simple requests for help dealing with obviously inappropriate behavior? This report won't fit better on any other board, and an RfC or some other silliness to determine the obvious just wastes people's time. It would take five minutes to review the editor's last week of diffs and decide whether a block or a warning is in order. The incivility, obviously, cannot continue unless we've just given up on civility. Wikidemon (talk) 13:44, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I'm back to serious-land. Scanned the IP's edits. Disruptive, IMO. Esp. the pointy redirect of Capitalism and the totally inappropriate responses on the user talk page, as well as the repeated recent edits against apparent consensus and the pointy edit summaries. Tim Song (talk) 13:49, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)An incident is something requiring urgent administrative attention, and this board became what you bemoan sometime ago - there's a large section at the top of the page instructing editors where to go and why ;-) This report wasn't gaining any traction here - the best I could do was direct the reporter to a board where they were more likely to get a response. And I still believe that WP:AN3 and/or WP:WQA are more appropriate forums for addressing edit warring and civility issues. Cheers, TFOWR 13:51, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, Flag is correct; we frequently suggest better venues. I note your vandalism example is more POINT than blatant; the vulgarity which you loudly declaim we cannot put up with is confined SFAICT to the editor's talk page, and is largely of the language choice type, which as we all know is largely a background and preference item; and most damningly, I fail to see anyone making any significant attempt to engage this editor at this time. Since I posted on his page, no one else has, and s/he has not posted anywhere. I suggest this is not an emergency, and the world will not end if we wait to see if the editor in question responds either here or on the editor talk page. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 14:10, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Mostly pointy edits. Disruptive? Sure. Blockable? Probably not. Wait and see. Tim Song (talk) 14:19, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

(ec) For what it's worth, leaving a "welcome" template is a nice touch. Other than that, this is exactly the response I was complaining about, giving the legit editors the run-around (and some chiding to boot for daring to come here, apparently) instead of dealing with what looks like WP:BADHAND account of an experienced editor (their ninth edit, on their first day of editing, was to remove another editor's talk page comment, citing WP:NOTAFORUM). An increasing number of reports go down that way. Maybe the admins who hang out on noticeboards enjoy chatting whereas the ones who actually deal with things are elsewhere? If you've been to WQA lately they don't do anything, they generally send editors back here with instructions to file an RfC or Arbcom case if that doesn't work, claiming that their noticeboard is for mediating good faith disputes among willing editors regarding whether conduct is uncivil, not intervening in case of recalcitrance clear incivility. The edit warring board intervenes only in case of active recent (as in, the past few hours) edit wars and tends to reject as stale or "no violation" slower, longer-term tendentiousness that don't cross 3RR. AIV is only for active blatant vandalism. Don't you see the contradiction in saying nobody is making a serious attempt to engage the editor, and justifying as a "language choice" preference the editor's telling those who have visited their talk page "are you fucking mad", "your hypocrisy as an editor", "fuck you", "fuck off", "fuck off" and "piss off", "I sure hope you don't have kids", "stay the fuck off my talk page", "you quivering sack of shit", "seek mental health counseling", and "neo-Nazis". I would say I tried to engage the editor, although I was stern, as stern as an admin should be in saying that blanking the article on capitalism was not acceptable. The response, Please read WP:AGF, and then fuck off with your unwelcome and accusatory interjections. Go defend hypocrisy elsewhere does not suggest any likelihood of constructive discussion so thank you but I'm done interacting with this editor. I think it's a fair call that the complaint is stale and unblockable at this point, in which case... I hate to tell y'all how to do your volunteer job here, but a reasonable response instead of telling concerned editors to go to a different board where their request will also be ignored, to leave a warning as an administrator on the offender's talk page that their behavior is not allowed and they will be blocked if it happens again, and ideally, to be ready to back that up. Wikidemon (talk) 15:07, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

"leav a warning as an administrator on the offender's talk page that their behavior is not allowed and they will be blocked if it happens again, and ideally, to be ready to back that up." - all outside my ability, I'm afraid. Best little ol' me can do is assist with procedure. Cheers, TFOWR 15:11, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

What the fuck? This has to be the most fucking ironic "discussion" I have ever seen. And I've been accused of incivility??? Fuck that!

I am fucking sick to my stomach over the fucking lying hypocrites which includes the mainstream media and the POV cover-ups of the Left. This is why Misplaced Pages is the mess it is. It's a democracy where majority rules on arbitration votes. NO! Misplaced Pages operates on consensus. NO IT FUCKING DOESN'T!!! Look at what happened in Washington D.C. on 9/12. What? You only read the Washington Post or the New York Times? Then I suppose you wouldn't know that reports of almost 2 MILLION fiscally Conservative Americans marched on the Capitol yesterday. WHERE IS THE OFFICIAL PARK POLICE COUNT?? Suppressed by Obama? I was there, pictures don't lie, as much as the Left would like them to: http://michellemalkin.com/

So I hope someone fucking reports me for this post, especially since I am a "newbie" poster to this discussion. I happen to think TFWOR is probably a pretty cool dude (although somewhat politically confused). If I want the Truth, I know Misplaced Pages is not the place to look for it. ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 15:41, 13 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Reticent and vandalizing IP

User talk:24.62.87.248. Special:Contributions/24.62.87.248

Problems with blanking articles and reticent edit warring.

ScienceApologist (talk) 12:49, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

User(s) blocked. by Blueboy96 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). All the Best, Mifter (talk) 15:01, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Personal attacks

Dear administrators, while cleaning the article Goce Delčev of POV, one user called Jingiby called me with nationalistic names, calling me Macedonian nationalist and publicly wants to damage my authority as user. Please react since I cannot edit with such nonwiki behaviour. See here. He has been blocked several (15) times for his behaviour and I think he did not learn the lesson. Thanks.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 14:46, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Note: moved from WP:AN by Mifter (talk · contribs). Best Mifter (talk) 15:39, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

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