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• WT:AC/N
• WT:ACN

Discussion of agenda

Agenda

Discussion of announcements

Temporary injunction regarding Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Lapsed Pacifist 2

Original announcement

Arbitration Committee motion regarding Locke Cole

Original announcement

Arbitration Committee motion regarding Mythdon

Original announcement

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/194x144x90x118

Original announcement

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abd-William M. Connolley

Original announcement

• I disagree with WMC's desysop based on my own principles on what should lead to a desysop. Sure there was bad judgment outlined and the abd block was a very, very bad move - but I fail to see how a full removal of his adminship is of real benefit to the site. Master&Expert (Talk) 01:41, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll save you from reading about 2 MB of mostly content-free text: The case was moving toward a do-nothing result until Abd tested the page ban and WMC blocked him. This pissed off arbcom, so they desysoped WMC. Arbcom planned to essentially ignore Abd's disruption until Risker proposed the three-month ban in the final days. The end. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:46, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

It's too late, I read through pretty much all of it over the past month in anticipation of the case's end. Pretty much sums it right up, though. Master&Expert (Talk) 01:55, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Yet another seriously flawed decision. Just plain lazy on the part of ArbCom. I've applied page bans before. I've also applied page bans on articles in which WMC was helping me out. He's a well reasoned, and highly dedicated administrator. To revoke his mop is childish. Hey ArbCom; Restore his mop. Now. You do not craft policy by holding people retroactively responsible for violating non-existent policy. Hiberniantears (talk) 03:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

No, William violated existing policy. He blocked Abd during the case, when he was clearly too involved to legitimately take action. One could perform a root cause analysis to figure out how things reached that point, much in the same way the NTSB attempts to reconstruct the chain of failures leading to a plane crash, but it would be a depressing and academic exercise. If there is a moral, it's that admins who fail to recognize goading, swallow their pride, and ignore it will not be admins forever. MastCell  04:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

What MastCell said. There has been several issues of questionable actions with the admin tools in the past, and blocking someone you were in an arbcase with (at the time the ArbCom case is going on) is pretty much not going to fly, ever. SirFozzie (talk) 04:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

WMC did violate policy - he responded to the deliberate provocation of an editor even ArbCom agrees is disruptive and tendentious. It would have been wiser for WMC to resist the temptation offered by the bait. More importantly - and much more disappointingly for Misplaced Pages - it would have been wiser for ArbCom to consider what was in the best interests of developing high-quality encyclopedic content rather to act on the afront it felt about WMC's unwise block. Unfortunately, the messages from this ArbCom case are (i) that ArbCom either cannot or will not control its own case pages; (ii) that the quality of the science content of the encyclopedia is not a priority of the Committee; and consequently, (iii) that the Committee will not offer any encouragement for adminisatrators to work in contentious areas but rather will continue pretending that science-literate uninvolved administrators (a highly endangered or extinct species) are in plentiful supply. The burnout and departure of science-literate editors is also apparently not a reason for concern. The Committee could have acted against WMC with a forced break and acted in a way that loudly reinforced their dedication to the purpose of Misplaced Pages. I do not doubt the good intentions of the Arbitrators but the decisions their judgements and priorities in this case have been poor. EdChem (talk) 05:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Aye, it is very foolish to do such things while ArbCom is actively looking at you. It's not smart to do them in the first place, but during an arbitration is asking for trouble, sadly. Still, the main result was right: since his return from a block in 2008 Abd has been on a path of escalation to burnout. It's remarkable he's lasted as long as he has before being blocked for a long time especially given his tendency to scream "cabal" at every turn. After the last arbitration he seemed to believe that he'd been fully vindicated and carried on precisely as before (if not worse), which is one of the things that sent me on a long wikibreak. Life is too short for your hobbies to be dominated by obsessives with no goal in mind other than to hound you for failing to agree with The Truth™. Guy (Help!) 09:38, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I have no problems with the eventual outcome, but I was alarmed at the degree to which attempts to demonize expert editors were successful. Just because somebody has expertise in a subject, does not mean he has a conflict of interest. We've seen on Misplaced Pages for some time now concerted efforts by the wilfully ignorant to set themselves up as somehow in opposition to expert editors and to attack their excellent work. Instead of dealing with those people for timewasting, there has been a tendency to treat them at their own evaluation--as somehow being engaged alongside those who have taken the trouble to study the subject in an endeavor to improve Misplaced Pages. That isn't the arbitration committee's job. It must recognise that some of these "disputes" are in fact political attacks, often openly orchestrated off-site, and intended to distort the facts and weaken the integrity of Misplaced Pages. --TS 07:09, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Something that should be taken into account by the Committee when considering their practice of allowing people to keep evidence in userspace and link to it from the Evidence case page is that there are hundreds of thousands of bytes of smears and innuendos, insinuations and unfounded accusations about other editors in Abd's user space that were entered as part of Abd's "evidence" in this case. When I complained about the extent to which my positions, intentions, actions and motivations were misrepresented throughout the case, an arbitrator said, as a way of consoling me, that since I wasn't mentioned in the final decision, I could assume that none of that was taken seriously by the Committee, but that if I felt strongly enough about it, I could ask to have the material blanked. Well, I guess I'm not very consoled, since I value my reputation for integrity and am sincerely offended at being so throughly defamed without any discernible purpose, and I'm not sure how blanking the inaccurate and misleading accusations could be accomplished, when the misrepresentations of fact were strewn liberally throughout the case, and much of the offending material is in Abd's user page.

The "cabal" userpage has been nominated for MfD, but a common argument against deleting it is that it is part of evidence in an ArbCom case so can't be deleted. There is an entire page-long section about me on that page, and the "evidence" is just an attempt using synthesis and OR, using a couple of quotes from user talk pages totally out of context to try to make a case that I had an "axe to grind", simply because I said that in my opinion there were sockpuppets involved in the delegable proxy mess, because I felt that Kirk Shanahan's preferred version of the cold fusion page was more neutral than Abd's preferred version, because I had once supported Science Apologist, and because I had said that I didn't find discussion with Abd to be a particularly productive way to spend my time. These are honest opinions, I hold them still, but for them to be entered as evidence of my "involvement" with a "cabal" is simply beyond incredible. There is no credible evidence for any "involvement" with the other editors listed in the cabal, even if collusion isn't part of the definition. I believe this entire page should be blanked; I request formally that at least my section of it should be blanked. It seems to me it's the least the Committee could do, to remedy a little bit of the harm that's been created by this case. Thank you. Woonpton (talk) 14:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Don't hold your breath waiting. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 14:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, I prefer to AGF; after all, I was specifically encouraged by an arbitrator to make this request, so I'm making it. But it's really a bigger issue that I'm raising here: encouraging editors to exceed the evidence limit by linking to unlimited text in userspace can have at least two unintended consequences: (1) it can lead to a proliferation of mudslinging and unsubstantiated accusations cloaked as evidence, as in this case, since it effectively voids the requirement to keep evidence concise and supported with specific diffs, and (2) it creates the problem of evidence in the case not being kept on the case pages and archived with the case. It's just out there in userspace; users could alter it, delete it, add to it, do anything they want with it, rather than it being protected with the case for historical reference. I just think the Committee should think about the consequences when allowing this practice in future. Woonpton (talk) 15:15, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I suspect the problem you describe may be pretty unique to the editor. As for reference, just link to old revisions or copy/pasta into your userspace. Protonk (talk) 23:48, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Woonpton, thank you for reminding me about this. I will go and carry out the courtesy blankings now. Short Brigade Harvester Boris, when you've finished holding your breath, do you think you could give arbitrators a chance to respond before you insert a cynical soundbite like that? Carcharoth (talk) 00:40, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedians supporting the restoration of the mop to William M. Connolley

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

What Skomorokh said. You want WMC to have the mop back, then write an RfA and get him to accept it. That or his appeal to the Committee are the only ways he'll get it back, and this is a waste of time and a drama-magnet. → ROUX ₪ 13:02, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

This is neither the time or the place. WMC can seek community support for adminiship through RfA if he so chooses.  Skomorokh  07:34, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Instead of trying to influence the discussion with "archive," collapse box, strikeout, or similar censorship technologies, let's apply the principle of good faith and move this to RFA. 99.191.73.2 (talk) 12:36, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedians supporting the restoration of the mop to William M. Connolley:

1. Support Hiberniantears (talk) 03:21, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
2. I will not be referring to myself as a "Wikipedian" until this travesty is reversed. 99.191.73.2 (talk) 12:31, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Opposing the restoration of the mop to William M. Connolley

1. WMC seems to show persistently poor judgement. In addition to blocking Abd during an Arbcom case involving Abd, WMC reverted the article at issue to 50 edits back, with edit summary "Lets wind everyone up". On 25 June 2009 he indef blocked ChildofMidnight. When questioned about this, WMC responded "I should slow down, and possibly only edit when sober" - either that's a particularly tasteless joke or WMC is totally irresponsible. Either way WMC is unfit to use the powers of admins. --Philcha (talk) 07:31, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
2. No way in hell. This case was just the thin end of the wedge of WMC's failings as an admin. MickMacNee (talk) 12:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Policy Discussion

In regard to item 5 of the Arbcom decision:

5. The community is urged to engage in a policy discussion and clarify under what circumstances, if any, an administrator may issue topic or page bans without seeking consensus for them, and how such bans may be appealed. This discussion should come to a consensus within one month of this notice.

I have created a relevant discussion page at Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(policy)#Arbcom_directed_discussion_-_Policy_on_non-consensual_topic_or_page_bans. Manning (talk) 07:16, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. When I have a few moments, I will try to post some background that will be relevant to this discussion. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:52, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

There is also ongoing discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Banning policy#Community discussion of topic-ban and page-ban procedure urged, probably the better place. Based on an initial thought expressed there, I have drafted a proposal at Misplaced Pages:Discretionary sanctions that would generalize the "discretionary" sanctions approach used by the ArbCom in various cases.  Sandstein  17:10, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Removal of administrative access

Original announcement

Who is the banned user? And is this block/desysop politically based, or for the good of the encyclopedia? Thanks in advance for your answers. Majorly talk 23:41, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

We don't disapear people for political reasons. Revealing further identity may disclose real life identities, so the committee has not yet come to a decision on what, exactly, to announce. I expect we'll be in a good position for a more detailed announcement in a day or two, though. — Coren  23:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

"We don't disapear people for political reasons..." This is absolutely untrue, but I look forward to seeing who his former identity was, and whether this reaction was justified. Cheers, Majorly talk 23:49, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Did you mean political as per this: Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/A new name 2008? I don't think anyone on the list was aware of that issue. We've just been informed. Cool Hand Luke 00:02, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, this is certainly germane to that RfA. Has A new name 2008 been informed about the status of their confidante, or is it more complicated than that? Protonk (talk) 00:34, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

From what I can see at the RFA, he is aware, and is re-confirming his identity through Thatcher. Who I'm pretty sure isn't a sock of anyone this time. ;-) Hersfold 00:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

It isn't just about reconfirming identity -- if A new name has put sensitive information at risk by revealing it to Pastor Theo, he needs to be informed of the level of risk. Looie496 (talk) 01:02, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Please disregard the above, now I am aware of who it is. I agree a block/desysop was very appropriate. Majorly talk 00:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

And how, pray tell, do you know that, when the only people who should be aware are checkusers and oversights? Hersfold 00:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Eh, the walls have ears; some people are really good guessers; functionaries-en is not leakproof. It doesn't really matter. And Majorly is a checkuser, just on a different project. Thatcher 00:15, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

It's a very good guess, that's all. Perhaps 99% certain. The facts all add up. No one is leaking anything to me. Majorly talk 00:18, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

So the community as a whole will never know who pastor theo was a sock of? Only those who have good hearing, and who are good guessers? Ikip (talk) 00:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Note above that Coren says Arbcom is still discussing how to handle it. Thatcher 00:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes. People may need to be patient for info (the arbitrators should take their time to decide over a day or two), but the details will likely surface soon IMO. JamieS93 00:31, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Coren said "I expect we'll be in a good position for a more detailed announcement in a day or two". So I expect we'll see more in a day or two. Either way, he was put out to Pastor. Baseball Bugs carrots 00:35, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh that's bad. @harej 00:40, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

As disappointed as I am in seeing all this, this really makes me laugh. Baseball Bugs, I never understood why so many people thought you were funny, now I finally do :) Ikip (talk) 01:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

My recollection is that this is not the first time a banned user has been elected admin. A strong case can be made that all successful admin candidates be checkusered as a routine matter. I'm really sorry for A New Name, and feel that "the system" let him down badly. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:10, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Of course, A new name could have run on his current edits and not tried to take credit for an extra 10K (for that matter, his user name is itself a poor choice for avoiding drama). Certainly the situation has turned out more poorly than he could have expected though. Thatcher 01:25, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

You're right, it's all his fault. No need to do something silly like improve safeguards against this happening in the future.</sarcasm> Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

This is a view I expressed long before Theo got popped. In any case, the proposal to checkuser all admin candidates has been floated many times. The checkusers would probably honor a request from the bureaucrats, but the bureaucrats would not make the request without a large community consensus to make it a regular part of RFA. So go start the discussion (again). And, note that this would probably only catch admin candidates who were unprepared for it. Thatcher 01:38, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

True. Checkuser is useless if the subject has half a clue and knows it's coming. Hersfold 01:54, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. (I'm not a CU, but have enough experience parsing httpd log files that I suspect I've got a good idea of how CU works.) Any other suggestions as to how this might be prevented in future? Even with my poor memory, this is at least the second time I can recall in the past year or two. That's twice too many. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

In response to me disputing whether this merited an immediate desysop under Level I procedures, I was informed explicitly (and confirmed when I requested clarification to be sure) that Pastor Theo was i) operating a second account in contravention of WP:SOCK very recently, and ii) had used his/her "advanced permissions" on the PT account in association with this second account. If this is the case, then I agree that Level I removal is acceptable, however I'm posting these two pieces of information to this noticeboard so that everyone else is aware of the full rationale behind the decision to use emergency removal procedures (as "currently operating a second account and using advanced permissions in relationship to it" wasn't included in the rationale posted to WP:AC/N), and to ensure that when the announcement by the Committee is made, there are no discrepancies between what has been explicitly and unambiguously divulged up until now, and the statement by the Committee itself. Daniel (talk) 01:39, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

...and, by my not-very-extreme powers of deduction, the second account in question is probably Mrs. Wolpoff (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). If so, there's a lot of double-voting going on, most notably Xeno's recent RfB, amongst many others. Daniel (talk) 02:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Ahem... Just a guess... --Jayron32 02:34, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

And incase anyone forgot the last time this happened. --Jayron32 02:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

It's definitely not Archtransit who is the "banned user" in this saga, to clarify any confusion. Daniel (talk) 02:49, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

At least 20 people opposed Theo's RfA, unlike Archtransit's unanimous one.--Giants27 (c|s) 02:51, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, it was just a guess. I am unfamiliar with the Pastor Theo case, but one must admit, without priviledged information, there ARE some striking commonalities between PT's case and the Archtransit one. I trust that it is not him, but still, we have now then been burned twice by two different persons doing essentially the same thing. --Jayron32 03:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

As for the double voting, it doesn't seem particularly successful at AFD. Wolpoff's favorite vote is "Per Pastor Theo", but the two accounts didn't get used in very many close calls. The real fun question is who gets to delete all those contributions?—Kww(talk) 02:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Holy Wow! I think this is like someone escaping from prison, adopting a new identity, and doing just about everything right, before their previous identity is found out and they get sent back to prison. When things like that occur (and I know of several prominent examples of such people), some people would invariably comment that these people should be let go because their track records as fugitives show that they were not threats to society anymore. Although I understand the rules in the book, in this case, it's hard for me not to sympathize with Theo, since I had not the slightest suspicion of who/what he previously was. I just thought that maybe if he had been a bit more careful, then he might have gotten away with it longer... TML (talk) 02:39, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Considering he used a sock account to double vote, it would be more like someone escaping from prison, getting a normal day job, but breaking into houses at night. Being a sock of a banned user was not the only issue. Mr.Z-man 03:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I have no sympathy for them. Every time someone so blatantly undermines the confidence we have in each other, calling into question WP:AGF and further tarnishing Misplaced Pages's credibility, we all lose, every one of us. This user's (mostly) productive edits on this one account do not forgive all that. -kotra (talk) 03:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)