| Revision as of 09:26, 29 September 2009 editVarsovian (talk | contribs)1,649 edits →Lack of Polish participation section← Previous edit | Revision as of 09:30, 29 September 2009 edit undoVarsovian (talk | contribs)1,649 edits →Controversies sectionNext edit → | ||
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| I propose deleting the section regarding the date of the parade. It is very clear from The Official Programme of the Victory Celebrations that the parade took place on 8 June 1946! | I propose deleting the section regarding the date of the parade. It is very clear from The Official Programme of the Victory Celebrations that the parade took place on 8 June 1946! | ||
| :Dear Varsovian, please read this]] so you can get a wider piture. Sorry but I don't have time at the moment to discuss this with you but I will in a near future.--] (]) 16:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC) | :Dear Varsovian, please read this]] so you can get a wider piture. Sorry but I don't have time at the moment to discuss this with you but I will in a near future.--] (]) 16:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC) | ||
| There are severe problems with both those. I place no faith at all in “A Question of Honor: The Kosciuszko Squadron: Forgotten Heroes of World War II”. The authors claim “none Of 303's Pilots took part in the fly-past. None marched in the parade. For they were all Polish -- and Poles who had fought under British command were deliberately and specifically barred from the celebration by the British government”. This statement is flatly contradicted by the memoirs of General Anders, The Times newspaper, Dr Ostrowski and Mr Falkowski (and indeed this WP article). I also place very little faith in Kwan Yuk Pan’s article. He claims “the country was excluded from the original London celebration in 1946.” This is of course flatly contradicted by the official programme of the parade. He goes on to say “The ground was laid two years ago when Mr Blair formally expressed regret to Poland for the 1946 parade snub.” A scan of the letter he refers to is at http://www.polandinexile.com/vp4.htm . The word “Blair” is nowhere in the letter and the letter actually says “We very much regret that Polish contingents did not take part”. Not ‘that Polish contingents were not invited’! With these problems in mind, I propose that these two sources be used for nothing more than support for the statement that “The parade is also notable for claims that all Polish servicemen were excluded from taking part.”] (]) 09:30, 29 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| == Lack of Polish participation section == | == Lack of Polish participation section == | ||
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IT IS NOT TRUE, THAT 303 SQUADRON WAS A PART OF ROYAL AIR FORCE!!! It was part of Polish Air Force - the independent force, having also other squadrons: 300, 301, 302, 304, 305, 306, 307, 308, 309, 315, 316, 317 and 318!. The commanding officers of 303 sqn 1941-1946 were Polish, pilots and mechanics were Polish - it is the historical fact!
Commonwealth parade?
I moved the following unreferenced claim from main article:
However, this was also a misunderstanding as it was a parade of British Commonwealth & Colonial forces, and only flag parties of foreign allies took part. 303 Squadron was part of the RAF, not the Polish air force. For example, no Russian forces paraded nor Brazilian forces, although Brazilian forces fought at Monte Cassino. The size of Allied participation was irrelevant. Incidentally, China which also claim to be the fourth largest Ally, was not invited neither.
This explanation is proven false by the references I added. From 'The Illustrated London News - Victory Parade Number, issued June 15, 1946': Headed by the Guards band the representatives of Allied forces were led by the United States, whose contingent included the Marine Corps. After the American contingent came the troops of China, occupying the place in the procession originally reserved for USSR, and behind them cane contingents with a bewildered variety of flags and uniforms - France, Belgium, Brazil, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Egypt, Ethiopia, Greece, Iran, Iraq, Luxembourg, Mexico, Nepal, Netherlands, Norway and Transjordan. Apart from the USSR, only Poland and Yugoslavia were not represented among our Allies.... And also from 'Question of Honor' book: American troops, who were in a place of honor at the head of the nine-mile parade, were followed -- in a kaleidoscope of uniforms, flags, and martial music -- by Czechs and Norwegians, Chinese and Dutch, French and Iranians, Belgians and Australians, Canadians and South Africans. There were Sikhs in turbans, high-stepping Greek evzoni in pom-pommed shoes and white pleated skirts, Arabs in fezzes and kaffiyehs, grenadiers from Luxembourg, gunners from Brazil. As we can see, both Chinsese and Brazilians were represented; Poles were not.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 16:20, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
A review of the official programme of the celebration makes it clear that with the exception of honour guards for the flags of each nation invited and representatives of certain airforces (i.e. United States of America (both Army and Naval), France, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Netherlands, Norway, Poland and Yugoslavia), only units from Commonwealth/Empire nations took part. Varsovian (talk) 14:52, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Controversies section
I propose deleting the section regarding the date of the parade. It is very clear from The Official Programme of the Victory Celebrations that the parade took place on 8 June 1946!
- Dear Varsovian, please read this]] so you can get a wider piture. Sorry but I don't have time at the moment to discuss this with you but I will in a near future.--Jacurek (talk) 16:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
There are severe problems with both those. I place no faith at all in “A Question of Honor: The Kosciuszko Squadron: Forgotten Heroes of World War II”. The authors claim “none Of 303's Pilots took part in the fly-past. None marched in the parade. For they were all Polish -- and Poles who had fought under British command were deliberately and specifically barred from the celebration by the British government”. This statement is flatly contradicted by the memoirs of General Anders, The Times newspaper, Dr Ostrowski and Mr Falkowski (and indeed this WP article). I also place very little faith in Kwan Yuk Pan’s article. He claims “the country was excluded from the original London celebration in 1946.” This is of course flatly contradicted by the official programme of the parade. He goes on to say “The ground was laid two years ago when Mr Blair formally expressed regret to Poland for the 1946 parade snub.” A scan of the letter he refers to is at http://www.polandinexile.com/vp4.htm . The word “Blair” is nowhere in the letter and the letter actually says “We very much regret that Polish contingents did not take part”. Not ‘that Polish contingents were not invited’! With these problems in mind, I propose that these two sources be used for nothing more than support for the statement that “The parade is also notable for claims that all Polish servicemen were excluded from taking part.”Varsovian (talk) 09:30, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Lack of Polish participation section
Rather than follow the model of Jacurek (constant editing of article, i.e 17 edits in under three hours!), I will list here the points of the current wording which I feel can be improved. If there is no discussion within 24 hours, I will rewrite the article as needed. “Although this is considered by some as one of the causes of the feeling of "Western Betrayal" in Poland” Poles were invited to take part.
“some claim they are erroneous because one Polish air force unit was invited to take part in the parade.” We are agreed that at least one Polish air force unit was invited. Therefore it is a logical impossibility that Poles were excluded. Therefore the words “some claim” are not needed.
The Official Programme of the parade stating that Poland was invited to parade her flag, along with an honour guard, and representatives of her air force. I propose removing your insertions.
“On 6 July 1945 the British government officially recognised installed by the Soviet Union Polish communist Provisional Government of National Unity” Is it accurate to describe this government as communist? The Prime Minister: Edward Osóbka-Morawski from the Polska Partia Socjalistyczna, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Agriculture and Agricultural Reform was Peasants’ Party leader Stanisław Mikołajczyk.
“the London-based legitimate Polish government in exile.” The word “legitimate” is opinion and not neutral point of view. The Provisional Government of National Unity was internationally recognised and represented Poland at the United nations.
“Therefore the 1946 invitations to the victory parade were sent to the new Soviet installed communist Provisional Government of National Unity” The fact that the invitations were sent to the Provisional Government of National Unity is confirmed by The Times newspaper quote (quoted in Dr Ostrowski’s book, I am attempting to find an online scan of the article in question) and by Mr Falkowski’s article
Rudolf Falkowski’s work is not self published. It is written by Rudolf Falkowski, who flew with 635, 639 and 303 squadrons, and first appeared on www.polishsquadronsremembered.com which is created and maintained by Wilhelm Ratuszynski.
“the Polish Armed Forces in the West which represented Poland and its government” The internationally recognised government of the time was the Provisional Government of National Unity. More importantly by June 1946, the Polish Armed Forces in the West were not under the command of the Polish government in exile
“invitations were extended to representatives of only one Polish airmen unit” All the sources I have seen (including Dr Ostowski’s book and Mr Falkowski’s article) refer to western command Polish fighter pilots, not specifically to 303 squadron.Varsovian (talk) 09:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
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