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| :::: Huh? Nobody disputes that the Poles who flied in the Battle of Britain were invited to the parade, it's a well known fact. However no other airmen were invited and at the same time the Army who fought alongside Britain from 1939, and who suffered great losses and spit blood on every possible battlefield accross Europe was not invited, the Navy who was involved in a number of major operation from the hunt of the Nazi battleship Bismarck, to the protection of artic conwoys from Nazi uboats likewise. McNeil states that clearly. ] (]) 17:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC) | :::: Huh? Nobody disputes that the Poles who flied in the Battle of Britain were invited to the parade, it's a well known fact. However no other airmen were invited and at the same time the Army who fought alongside Britain from 1939, and who suffered great losses and spit blood on every possible battlefield accross Europe was not invited, the Navy who was involved in a number of major operation from the hunt of the Nazi battleship Bismarck, to the protection of artic conwoys from Nazi uboats likewise. McNeil states that clearly. ] (]) 17:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC) | ||
| ::::: Please read the sources. Kwan Yuk Pan says in the Financial Times (source 2) " Even though Poland made one of the largest contributions to the Allied war effort and there were thousands of Polish troops stationed in the UK at the time, the country was excluded from the original London celebration in 1946. Stalin, who had established communist rule in eastern Europe, indicated that he did not wish Poland to be represented and the British authorities agreed for fear of offending their ally." and Olson & Cloud say (in source 1) “Poles who had fought under British command were deliberately and specifically barred from the celebration by the British government, for fear of offending Joseph Stalin." Those are the 'claim' I have been referring to (they are quoted above on this page). As to the Polish army and navy being excluded: no units from the armies or navies of any non-Commonwealth/Empire nation were invited to the parade. Poland is a non-Commonwealth/Empire nation. No units from either of the two largest allied armies (i.e. the Red Army and the US Army) were invited. ] (]) 17:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
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IT IS NOT TRUE, THAT 303 SQUADRON WAS A PART OF ROYAL AIR FORCE!!! It was part of Polish Air Force - the independent force, having also other squadrons: 300, 301, 302, 304, 305, 306, 307, 308, 309, 315, 316, 317 and 318!. The commanding officers of 303 sqn 1941-1946 were Polish, pilots and mechanics were Polish - it is the historical fact!
Commonwealth parade?
I moved the following unreferenced claim from main article:
However, this was also a misunderstanding as it was a parade of British Commonwealth & Colonial forces, and only flag parties of foreign allies took part. 303 Squadron was part of the RAF, not the Polish air force. For example, no Russian forces paraded nor Brazilian forces, although Brazilian forces fought at Monte Cassino. The size of Allied participation was irrelevant. Incidentally, China which also claim to be the fourth largest Ally, was not invited neither.
This explanation is proven false by the references I added. From 'The Illustrated London News - Victory Parade Number, issued June 15, 1946': Headed by the Guards band the representatives of Allied forces were led by the United States, whose contingent included the Marine Corps. After the American contingent came the troops of China, occupying the place in the procession originally reserved for USSR, and behind them cane contingents with a bewildered variety of flags and uniforms - France, Belgium, Brazil, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Egypt, Ethiopia, Greece, Iran, Iraq, Luxembourg, Mexico, Nepal, Netherlands, Norway and Transjordan. Apart from the USSR, only Poland and Yugoslavia were not represented among our Allies.... And also from 'Question of Honor' book: American troops, who were in a place of honor at the head of the nine-mile parade, were followed -- in a kaleidoscope of uniforms, flags, and martial music -- by Czechs and Norwegians, Chinese and Dutch, French and Iranians, Belgians and Australians, Canadians and South Africans. There were Sikhs in turbans, high-stepping Greek evzoni in pom-pommed shoes and white pleated skirts, Arabs in fezzes and kaffiyehs, grenadiers from Luxembourg, gunners from Brazil. As we can see, both Chinsese and Brazilians were represented; Poles were not.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 16:20, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
A review of the official programme of the celebration makes it clear that with the exception of honour guards for the flags of each nation invited and representatives of certain airforces (i.e. United States of America (both Army and Naval), France, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Netherlands, Norway, Poland and Yugoslavia), only units from Commonwealth/Empire nations took part. Varsovian (talk) 14:52, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Controversies section
I propose deleting the section regarding the date of the parade. It is very clear from The Official Programme of the Victory Celebrations that the parade took place on 8 June 1946!
- Dear Varsovian, please read this]] so you can get a wider piture. Sorry but I don't have time at the moment to discuss this with you but I will in a near future.--Jacurek (talk) 16:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
There are severe problems with both those. I place no faith at all in “A Question of Honor: The Kosciuszko Squadron: Forgotten Heroes of World War II”. The authors claim “none Of 303's Pilots took part in the fly-past. None marched in the parade. For they were all Polish -- and Poles who had fought under British command were deliberately and specifically barred from the celebration by the British government”. This statement is flatly contradicted by the memoirs of General Anders, The Times newspaper, Dr Ostrowski and Mr Falkowski (and indeed this WP article). I also place very little faith in Kwan Yuk Pan’s article. He claims “the country was excluded from the original London celebration in 1946.” This is of course flatly contradicted by the official programme of the parade. He goes on to say “The ground was laid two years ago when Mr Blair formally expressed regret to Poland for the 1946 parade snub.” A scan of the letter he refers to is at http://www.polandinexile.com/vp4.htm . The word “Blair” is nowhere in the letter and the letter actually says “We very much regret that Polish contingents did not take part”. Not ‘that Polish contingents were not invited’! With these problems in mind, I propose that these two sources be used for nothing more than support for the statement that “The parade is also notable for claims that all Polish servicemen were excluded from taking part.”Varsovian (talk) 09:30, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Lack of Polish participation section
Rather than follow the model of Jacurek (constant editing of article, i.e 17 edits in under three hours!), I will list here the points of the current wording which I feel can be improved. If there is no discussion within 24 hours, I will rewrite the article as needed.
“some claim they are erroneous because one Polish air force unit was invited to take part in the parade.” We are agreed that at least one Polish air force unit was invited. Therefore it is a logical impossibility that Poles were excluded. Therefore the words “some claim they” are not needed. The Official Programme of the parade states that Poland was invited to parade her flag, along with an honour guard, and representatives of her air force, not just a single unit. I propose removing your insertions.
“On 6 July 1945 the British government officially recognised installed by the Soviet Union Polish communist Provisional Government of National Unity” Is it accurate to describe this government as communist? The Prime Minister: Edward Osóbka-Morawski from the Polska Partia Socjalistyczna, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Agriculture and Agricultural Reform was Peasants’ Party leader Stanisław Mikołajczyk. Neither were communists.
“the London-based legitimate Polish government in exile.” The word “legitimate” is opinion and not neutral point of view. The Provisional Government of National Unity was internationally recognised and represented Poland at the United nations.
“Therefore the 1946 invitations to the victory parade were sent to the new Soviet installed communist Provisional Government of National Unity” The fact that the invitations were sent to the Provisional Government of National Unity is confirmed by The Times newspaper quote (quoted in Dr Ostrowski’s book, I am attempting to find an online scan of the article in question) and by Mr Falkowski’s article
Rudolf Falkowski’s work is not self published. It is written by Rudolf Falkowski, who flew with 635, 639 and 303 squadrons, and first appeared on www.polishsquadronsremembered.com which is created and maintained by Wilhelm Ratuszynski.
“the Polish Armed Forces in the West which represented Poland and its government” The internationally recognised government of the time was the Provisional Government of National Unity. More importantly by June 1946, the Polish Armed Forces in the West were not under the command of the Polish government in exile
“invitations were extended to representatives of only one Polish airmen unit” All the sources I have seen (including Dr Ostowski’s book and Mr Falkowski’s article) refer to western command Polish fighter pilots, not specifically to 303 squadron. Please provide sources stating only one unit was invited.Varsovian (talk) 09:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Jacurek: Please stop inserting into this article the erroneous claim that only one Polish unit was invited. There are now multiple sources (including two references from the minutes of the British Parliament from June 1946) confirming that the invitation was extended to both the government of Poland and to representatives of the Western Command Poles. You have not provided even a single source, let alone a source as reliable as the minutes of the British Parliament from June 1946, which states that only a single Polish unit was invited. Furthermore, your text contradicts the content of the official program of the parade, which clearly states that more than a single Polish unit was invited. Varsovian (talk) 17:53, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Self Published sources?
Jacurek: Could you please be so kind as to point out the sources which you consider to be self published?
If you are refering to Dr Ostrowski's work (which is actually published by the University of London), please check the links given to Hansard: everything said in The Times article quoted by Dr Ostrowski is also said in Hansard.
If you are refering to Mr Falkowski's article, please see my comments on this page: the article is written by Rudolf Falkowski, who flew with 635, 639 and 303 squadrons, and first appeared on www.polishsquadronsremembered.com which is created and maintained by Wilhelm Ratuszynski.
If you are refering to Mr Lucas' article, please note that the English text on his blog is a translation of the Polish language article which was published in Wprost.
If you are refering to Hansard, please read Hansard.
I would greatly appreciate it if you could please use this discussion page to discuss changes you wish to make to the article before you change the article.Varsovian (talk) 17:51, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Factual accuracy disputed
Jacurek: Could you please outline the facts which you consider to be inaccurate. I will be happy to provide you with direct quotes from the online records of what was said in the British Parliament that will prove the facts which I inserted into this article.
I fail to see how your current actions (i.e. flagging this article as having disputed accuracy and containing self published sources and calling for expert attention while you fail to engage in any discussion at all about the subject) help WP in any way.Varsovian (talk) 18:07, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Jacurek: You have inserted two notes in the article. I will explain why they need to be removed:
“The parade is also notable for claims that all Polish servicemen were excluded from taking part.” Source states “Poles who had fought under British command were deliberately and specifically barred from the celebration by the British government, for fear of offending Joseph Stalin. …. Yet, as the great long line of marchers proceeded down the Mall on that June morning in 1946, and as the crowds cheered and basked in the postwar world's rebirth of freedom, proud Poland remained in the shadows.” Source states “Even though Poland made one of the largest contributions to the Allied war effort and there were thousands of Polish troops stationed in the UK at the time, the country was excluded from the original London celebration in 1946.” Those are clearly claims that Poles were excluded from the parade. Or do you have any other reason for inserting ?
“Although this is considered by some as one of the causes of the feeling of "Western Betrayal" in Poland, such claims are erroneous because Poles were invited to take part in the parade.” Why is this dubious? Hansard reproduces discussions in which it is clearly stated by the British Foreign Secretary that Poles were invited. The memoirs of General Anders say that Poles were invited. The Times newspaper of the time says that Poles were invited. I can understand a modern day journalist from the Financial Times making a mistake when writing about history but it is impossible that General Anders was wrong and highly unlikely that the official printed transcripts of British parliamentary debates (i.e. Hansard) has been altered to insert statements which were never made. Then there is the official program of the victory celebrations which clearly lists Poland as a nation invited to participate. There are even British government records from the time showing how many staff cars the Polish attendees were allocated! What would you consider to be sufficient proof?!Varsovian (talk) 12:10, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
"such claims are erroneous"
I'm removing "such claims are erroneous" because that is not encyclopedic style. Loosmark (talk) 14:10, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
- In that case, could you please use correct style to point out that such claims are erroneous? I'd do it myself but I'm limited to iPhone only access until Monday and that means I can only write simple messages: if I try to edit the article, I'll probably just mess it up! Varsovian (talk) 14:34, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
- The "claims", as you call them, present a valid position, are properly sourced and presented with only 1 sentence. The opposite view is now widely spread throughout the article thanks to your efforts to rewrite the article. And don't worry wikipedia will do just fine till Monday without your edits from "limited to iPhone only access". Loosmark (talk) 14:54, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
- “A valid position”? “The opposite point of view”? You seem to misunderstand the situation here. There are no points of view here! We are talking about a very simple fact: either Poles were not invited to the parade or they were invited. There is no room here for valid positions, there can be only one truth. And the fact is that despite claims that Poles were not invited, Poles were invited. This fact is supported by all the available historic sources. The claims that Poles were excluded come from sources written the best part of six decades after the parade and are at best totally erroneous hearsay. I will rewrite the introduction to this section to make it clear that the claims are not accurate.
- The "claims", as you call them, present a valid position, are properly sourced and presented with only 1 sentence. The opposite view is now widely spread throughout the article thanks to your efforts to rewrite the article. And don't worry wikipedia will do just fine till Monday without your edits from "limited to iPhone only access". Loosmark (talk) 14:54, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
- I would like to note that your comments here and on my talk page and your own talk page seem unnecessarily confrontational and impolite. I do not appreciate being called a liar and would be most grateful if you could possibly adopt a civil tone in all further discussion with me. Thank you in advance for your efforts to do so.Varsovian (talk) 14:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- I have not called you a liar. Please show where i called you a liar or withdraw the false accusation. Loosmark (talk) 14:43, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- At User_talk:Varsovian#Reproaches you state "yes "Varsovian", you are a new user. right. just an advise next time you try the new user thing try to behave like one, you might look more convincing." Do you wish to claim that your comments imply that I am telling the truth when I say that I am a new user? Or do you instead use sarcasm in an attempt to imply that I am a liar, and an unconvincing liar at that.
- I note that you have made no attempt to in any way discuss your assertion that the fact that Poles were invited to the parade (a fact confirmed by all the available historical sources) is simply a "Point of view". Perhaps you would like to stand next to a woman who is giving birth and shout loudly "From a valid point of view this woman has never been pregnant!" ? Being invited is in a certain way very much like being pregnant: one can't be 'a little bit invited' (especially not when all the available sources say that one was invited). Instead of discussing your assertion you simply revert the correctly sourced statements of fact and replace them with ungrammatical erroreous claims.
- Despite your repeated veiled comments about my good faith, " I understand very well what mission you were on", "provocations orchestrated by the usual suspects" and the comment already quoted above, I shall make no comment at all about your good faith and shall simply ask you to explain from what point of view it is possible to state that Poles were excluded from the parade by the British government given that all the historical source data shows that Poles were clearly invited by the British government. Until you have done so, could you be so kind as to not revert the article. Thank you. Varsovian (talk) 16:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yes I had reservation about you being a new users, even an administrator had them. But anyway despite writting a long rant you haven't showed where I have called a lair. Therefore I ask you again to either show where I've called you a liar or withdraw this incivil falsification. Loosmark (talk) 16:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- You had reservation about me being "a new users"?! Could you possibly refrain from stating that I am operating multiple accounts? Or when you say that I am "new users", do you mean that 'one user' has exactly the same meanins as "users"? As for your claims about me saying that you called me a liar, I was very carefully as to what I did and did not say. Could you perhaps quote the text in which I called you a liar? Or would you prefer to withdraw this incivil falsified claim? Judging by the way in which you have withdrawn none of the veiled comments about my good faith, I am sorry to say that I shall not hold my breath whilst waiting for you to do so.
- I note that you have made no attempt to engage in any discussion as to the content of the article whatsoever. I again ask you to explain from what point of view it is possible to state that Poles were excluded from the parade by the British government given that all the historical source data shows that Poles were clearly invited by the British government. Kindly do not revert the article without first providing such explanation here. Thank you.Varsovian (talk) 16:39, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- yes, I can provide you the quote, you said: I do not appreciate being called a liar. So, again where I've called you a liar? I've already explained a couple of days ago why your behavior looked suspiscious. An administrator had similar doubts, will you acuse him of being a liar too? Loosmark (talk) 16:47, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- Well done, you have provided a quote in which I have said that I do not like being called a liar. Now kindly provide a quote in which I say that you have called me a liar. Or do you really not see how 'I do not appreciate being called a liar' and 'You have called me a liar' are two different statements? While you are looking for those quotes, perhaps you could provide the quotes in which you explain why my behavious looks suspicious? So far you have only said " next time you try the new user thing try to behave like one, you might look more convincing".
- Do you actually have anything at all to say about the article? I'm particularly interested to hear you explain from what point of view it is possible to state that Poles were excluded from the parade by the British government given that all the historical source data shows that Poles were clearly invited by the British government. Which is why I have asked you several times now to do so. I wonder why you have ignored each and every one of those requests. Varsovian (talk) 16:56, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oh I see, so you did not mean that I've called you a liar. Right, so what for have brought that up again? Loosmark (talk) 17:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- I haven't. You have. When you said "I have not called you a liar. Please show where i called you a liar or withdraw the false accusation." As for why you have brought this up, I wouldn't like to comment. Although I do note that you've been very willing to discuss this and have made very little effort to explain from what point of view it is possible to state that Poles were excluded from the parade by the British government given that all the historical source data shows that Poles were clearly invited by the British government. Varsovian (talk) 17:03, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
invitation
The "invitation" was given to the communist authorities in Poland which werent recognised by the the governament in exile and by the Polish veterans. That much is clear. Your statement that The claims that Poles were excluded come from sources written the best part of six decades after the parade and are at best totally erroneous hearsay. is original research and original research is not allowed on wikipedia. Varsovian please stop pushing your POV into the article. Loosmark (talk) 16:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- No it was not given to only the internationally recognised government of Poland (which is what I assume you mean by "the communist authorities in Poland"): an invitation was also given to representatives of the Western Command Poles. Read the sources given, in particular Hansard. Or the memoirs of Gen Anders if you only trust Polish sources.
- You claim about original research is highly amusing! Perhaps you would like to read the sources which claim that Poles were excluded, then note the dates when those sources were written. I look forward hugely to your explaination as to how simple mathematics (i.e. working out how many years after the parade those sources were written) is 'original research! But then I also look forward to you explaining how the status of Poles being invited is in any way a 'point of view'.... Varsovian (talk) 16:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- Obviously you have no idea what was going on, read Hansard your own source, McNeil said this: We have not invited the Navy and the Army, but we did invite some of the Poles who flew in the Battle of Britain, to march past in the R.A.F. contingent. Let me repeat again: We have not invited the Navy and the Army, but we did invite some of the Poles who flew in the Battle of Britain, to march past in the R.A.F. contingent. Loosmark (talk) 16:52, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- Marvelllous. Thank you for quoting that section from the source for me. Now it has been shown that you know some Western Command Poles were invited, it will be impossible for you to claim that Western Command Poles were not invited. So we are agreed: some Poles were invited to the parade by the British government and they were not excluded from the parade. I'll edit the article accordingly.Varsovian (talk) 17:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- Huh? Nobody disputes that the Poles who flied in the Battle of Britain were invited to the parade, it's a well known fact. However no other airmen were invited and at the same time the Army who fought alongside Britain from 1939, and who suffered great losses and spit blood on every possible battlefield accross Europe was not invited, the Navy who was involved in a number of major operation from the hunt of the Nazi battleship Bismarck, to the protection of artic conwoys from Nazi uboats likewise. McNeil states that clearly. Loosmark (talk) 17:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- Please read the sources. Kwan Yuk Pan says in the Financial Times (source 2) " Even though Poland made one of the largest contributions to the Allied war effort and there were thousands of Polish troops stationed in the UK at the time, the country was excluded from the original London celebration in 1946. Stalin, who had established communist rule in eastern Europe, indicated that he did not wish Poland to be represented and the British authorities agreed for fear of offending their ally." and Olson & Cloud say (in source 1) “Poles who had fought under British command were deliberately and specifically barred from the celebration by the British government, for fear of offending Joseph Stalin." Those are the 'claim' I have been referring to (they are quoted above on this page). As to the Polish army and navy being excluded: no units from the armies or navies of any non-Commonwealth/Empire nation were invited to the parade. Poland is a non-Commonwealth/Empire nation. No units from either of the two largest allied armies (i.e. the Red Army and the US Army) were invited. Varsovian (talk) 17:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC)