| Revision as of 07:08, 13 September 2009 editPer Honor et Gloria (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Pending changes reviewers53,031 edits dn← Previous edit | Revision as of 16:56, 20 October 2009 edit undoJoren (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users3,285 edits →This article is not written from a neutral point of viewNext edit → | ||
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| :My personal feelings regarding this article is that it could do with alot of cleaning. The statement about Christian daimyos involved in massacres in Korea comes across as an almost adolescent "See! Christians are no better!". Really what should be said there is that the daimyos converted to christianity for practical and economic reasons and not usually out of any heartfelt change of faith or heart, hence their religion did not influence their behavior drastically.. or something. I think the article is just badly written and needs to be fixed up. ] (]) 15:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC) | :My personal feelings regarding this article is that it could do with alot of cleaning. The statement about Christian daimyos involved in massacres in Korea comes across as an almost adolescent "See! Christians are no better!". Really what should be said there is that the daimyos converted to christianity for practical and economic reasons and not usually out of any heartfelt change of faith or heart, hence their religion did not influence their behavior drastically.. or something. I think the article is just badly written and needs to be fixed up. ] (]) 15:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC) | ||
| ::I have finally removed the incredible allegation of Jesuits trading Christian Japanese virgins for gunpowder! It's been in the article months despite being unknown to normal histories and being based on a single extremely unreliable source. The action of removing the ludicrous 500,000 figure was insufficient, since by removing an obviously ridiculous figure that change almost makes the allegation more credible and less easily disproven. This allegation comes under the WP guidance that an exceptional allegation requires an exceptional source. This does not exist. The allegation would seem more of an internal Japanese propaganda "justification" for the subsequent repression and massacre of Christians. ]] 01:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC) | ::I have finally removed the incredible allegation of Jesuits trading Christian Japanese virgins for gunpowder! It's been in the article months despite being unknown to normal histories and being based on a single extremely unreliable source. The action of removing the ludicrous 500,000 figure was insufficient, since by removing an obviously ridiculous figure that change almost makes the allegation more credible and less easily disproven. This allegation comes under the WP guidance that an exceptional allegation requires an exceptional source. This does not exist. The allegation would seem more of an internal Japanese propaganda "justification" for the subsequent repression and massacre of Christians. ]] 01:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC) | ||
| :::Stumbled upon this after having my own run-in with that 500,000 statistic on different articles. Read in ] for more info. For what it's worth I do seem to recall that this statistic had been added by the same person to different articles. I had a lot of fun trying to track down this claim :/ basically it seems like someone copy-pasted it from a blog citation of a sensationalist book and it spread from that. ] (]) 16:56, 20 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *Khh. I'll sort this. | *Khh. I'll sort this. | ||
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This article is not written from a neutral point of view
Especially the military activity section. This long section hardly gives any information about military activity of Japanese converts. Rather speculates about Spanish or Portuguese invasion of China. This invasion never occurred(and therefore should not be mentioned in military activity section). Also claims preparation for a Christian rebellion against Toyotomi Hideyoshi which also never occurred(this section is supposed to be about military activity, not intentions). Not to forget that the author is trying to prove his opinion that Christian daimyo is not less severe than a non-Christian daimyo by mentioning a massacre of Koreans by Japanese who had at least one daimyo(who happens to be Christian) in their rank. How come destruction of Buddhist temples(this is the first time a read about Christian minority destroying shrines of a majority religion in potentionaly hostile country) is mentioned in this section. It is not a military activity.
Also the "propagation strategy" section claims that number of Christians under Christian daimyo "drastically" increased. What does mean "drastically" in this context? Where the commoners drastically forced to accept Christianity? Or was the growth peaceful but just so high that it could be described "drastic" using slang language.
Early policy towards Catholicism section : "By 1579, at the height of missionary activity, there were only about 130,000 converts." I think that this is quite a large number regarding that there was no state support of Christianity or state forced conversions.
St.Francis Xavier as a slave trader - seems ridiculous. I never heard about Jesuits slave trading in Japan. I would like to see the source. Maybe some kind of nationalist propaganda book from Taishō or Shōwa eras.
There is no mention about insane violence towards Christians. The martyrs(including native Japanese) do not have a single section in this article.
The Japanese government responsible for persecution of Christians is being excused while Christians are blamed for the tragedy and evil which followed the ban on Christianity. I read about forced dechristianization and persecution of Christians in Japan from secular sources but never read about forced christianization in Japan, China or anywhere in the Far East.
This article is totally written from anti-Christian point of view. Worst NPOV violation I ever met on wikipedia. This article is trying to excuse the Christian holocaust in Japan.
Isidoros47 (talk) 10:32, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, right. The number of people who were executed was relatively low, and the converts were given plenty of chances to recant (the missionaries to withdraw from the country). The importance of the "persecution" is played up in Eurocentric, anti-Japanese sources. The authorities were very slow to actually enforce their edicts. There were plenty of government-forced conversions, although few by the national central government (Nobunaga, through his pro-foreign policies, may have caused some) - they were instead brought about by individual daimyou who converted and forced Christianity on their subjects. This probably accounted for the vast majority of the conversions. If you want a source, try Japan: A Short Cultural History by Sansom, which is "still the best introduction to Japanese history" (Times Literary Supplement) and "remains to this day the standard work in the field" (World Affairs Quarterly). Japan - An Attempt at Interpretation (Hearn) takes the same view, and, although I would not consider it a particularly reliable source on history, is more highly regarded in Japan and elsewhere than most others. Clearly the "secular" sources you read were written by Christians with their own agenda, even if they were not in the direct employ of the Church. I rather think that thanks to anti-Japanese literature this is one of the worst NPOV-violations on Misplaced Pages in the opposite way. elvenscout742 (talk) 22:30, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Don't be silly. I never said that the secular sources I read were written by Christians. Claiming that every literature that does not excuse religious holocaust in Japan is anti-Japanese is paranoiac.
Isidoros47 (talk) 22:04, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
- My personal feelings regarding this article is that it could do with alot of cleaning. The statement about Christian daimyos involved in massacres in Korea comes across as an almost adolescent "See! Christians are no better!". Really what should be said there is that the daimyos converted to christianity for practical and economic reasons and not usually out of any heartfelt change of faith or heart, hence their religion did not influence their behavior drastically.. or something. I think the article is just badly written and needs to be fixed up. Kamatsu (talk) 15:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
- I have finally removed the incredible allegation of Jesuits trading Christian Japanese virgins for gunpowder! It's been in the article months despite being unknown to normal histories and being based on a single extremely unreliable source. The action of removing the ludicrous 500,000 figure was insufficient, since by removing an obviously ridiculous figure that change almost makes the allegation more credible and less easily disproven. This allegation comes under the WP guidance that an exceptional allegation requires an exceptional source. This does not exist. The allegation would seem more of an internal Japanese propaganda "justification" for the subsequent repression and massacre of Christians. Xandar 01:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- Stumbled upon this after having my own run-in with that 500,000 statistic on different articles. Read in Talk:Martyrs_of_Japan for more info. For what it's worth I do seem to recall that this statistic had been added by the same person to different articles. I had a lot of fun trying to track down this claim :/ basically it seems like someone copy-pasted it from a blog citation of a sensationalist book and it spread from that. Joren (talk) 16:56, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- I have finally removed the incredible allegation of Jesuits trading Christian Japanese virgins for gunpowder! It's been in the article months despite being unknown to normal histories and being based on a single extremely unreliable source. The action of removing the ludicrous 500,000 figure was insufficient, since by removing an obviously ridiculous figure that change almost makes the allegation more credible and less easily disproven. This allegation comes under the WP guidance that an exceptional allegation requires an exceptional source. This does not exist. The allegation would seem more of an internal Japanese propaganda "justification" for the subsequent repression and massacre of Christians. Xandar 01:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- Khh. I'll sort this.
Sioraf (talk) 19:57, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Kirishitan crucifix
A Japanese Kirishitan crucifix, 17th century. Feel free to insert it in the article. Photographed at the Paris Foreign Missions Society. PHG (talk) 15:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Done PHG 07:08, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Japanese Kannon/Virgin Mary
Here is an image of the Virgin Mary disguised as Kannon (Guan Yin) from 17th century Japan. Feel free to insert it in the article. Cheers PHG (talk) 09:04, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- Done PHG 07:08, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
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