Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:05, 25 October 2009

25 October 2009

David Shankbone

David Shankbone (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

According to WP:AFD, discussions should be open for at least seven days. The closer's response to me was "Seven hours over the course of a week isn't a terribly large amount of time." I think in discussions such as these (the particularly high profile cases), it is important to let discussions run their full course. It's also questionable to me that just the right number of votes were considered invalid to arrive at the magic percentage of 60% (consensus) in support of keep. Furthermore, regarding the final closing statement of "I feel as though there is a strong consensus here that, based on policy-related arguments including notability, neutrality, and verifiability," I fail to see how a strong consensus could be pulled form this discussion, much less in support of keeping, and it seems to me that WP:BLP was not given sufficient consideration when attributing weight to arguments. "e should take very high moral and ethical approach to BLPs." Lara 17:55, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

• Overturn — the closer did not give appropriate weight to the cromulent pro-delete reasons, which are significant since this is a biography of a living person. @harej 18:02, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
• Overturn BLP articles should be given special consideration, and discussion should not be stifled, whether for a few hours or minutes. Early closure was inappropriate. Additionally, it was clearly a no-consensus deal, which with BLPs defaults to delete. Majorly talk 18:04, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
• Overturn: Strongly. In high-profile AFDs, there is a much stronger requirement to follow the letter of the policies. Try holding your breath for seven hours or going into work seven hours early. This wasn't a matter of minutes. It should be re-opened, and I'm frankly appalled that Hersfold didn't simply reverse himself after admitting he was in error. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:05, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedians who say CfD is broken

Category:Wikipedians who say CfD is broken (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

The closing administrator seems to have cast his own vote, without any relevance to the discussion at hand. The closing administrator seems to improperly conflate votes to delete with votes to rename, arguing at his user talk page that a rename indicates that the category should not exist under its current name and is equivalent to delete. There was no consensus here for deletion. There was consensus to rename, and the closing administrator could have simply selected the most appropriate alternative name as long as he was casting a supervote. In reality, the disparate range of votes here makes this a no consensus. The choice to delete, the most disruptive possible option under the circumstances, is not only rather WP:POINTy, but unsupported by the votes actually cast in the discussion. Responding to a "general sink of petty snarking" by casting a snarky close for deletion only amplifies the problems with the close and the problems at CfD, with all discussion of alternative means of improving the CfD process has been deliberately tossed into the bit bucket. The decision was out of process and should be closed properly as a rname or no consensus. Alansohn (talk) 14:35, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

• Overturn and relist I agree with Alansohn that the closing rationale sounds very much like the closing administrator has closed the discussion according to a personal analysis instead of the consensus. I cannot see any consensus for deletion in the discussion itself nor is there any other consensus, as such, it should be relisted to achieve a clear consensus to act on. Regards SoWhy 15:34, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

• Overturn and relist The Xdamr's rationale is clearly a case of closing the discussion according to a personal analysis instead of according to the consensus. 16:19, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

• Overturn and relist- Consensus was not for delete in that debate, as far as I can tell. Umbralcorax (talk) 16:25, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

• Overturn and relist. It is clear from the closer's rationale that xe's personal view was inappropriately given great weight in the closure. Given the discussion, which I have difficulty discerning a consensus from, there is a reasonable probability that, but for the error, the result would have been different. Relisting is appropriate in such circumstances. Tim Song (talk) 16:58, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
• Comment - I'm not sure how effective a relist would be. Most active people who care about user categories have already participated, and a large chunk of the community doesn't care enough about them to participate if it were relisted. I really can only see 1, maybe 2 more participants adding their opinion to the discussion, which probably wouldn't be enough to generate a more decisive consensus. I'd support a relist if everyone participating in this DRV who hasn't already given their opinion at the debate commited to doing so after relisting. As the closure didn't preclude creation of a similarly named category, and most participants agreed to a rename (in some form or another), I would suggest simply creating the category under a better name (preferably one suggested in the Cfd, or one similar to a suggested one). VegaDark (talk) 17:16, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
• Overturn and relisting is optional. The closer doesn't mention anything about the consensus of the debate they were closing, just gives their own opinion on deletion. If you feel so strongly, make a comment, don't close the discussion. Closers shouldn't be supervoters... it trivializes discussions. --Sancho Mandoval (talk) 17:53, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Paul LaViolette

Paul LaViolette (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

This one ought to have been no consensus. There were at least eight editors arguing for keep, and even the closer agreed (here, post at 15:54) that our arguments are valid. As Juliancolton says, the decision to delete depended on the fact of the subject's request -- but if even he accepts that in this case one should not give weight to the subject's request, then again it is hard to see that there was a consensus to delete, given the number of editors arguing keep on that ground, or that one could delete despite no consensus. There is also the substantive point to consider: if a subject requests deletion only after attempts to control the page have failed (as in this case), it ought to be clear that they are not really seeking privacy but only control, and honoring the request is then a manipulation that subverts NPOV. But beyond the general question, for this particular AfD ignoring all those keep views can't possibly be described as consensus, especially when one accepts that their arguments are valid. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:11, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

• BLP allows an AFD closer to delete a marginal BLP if the subject requests deletion. I can't see any incorrect application of deletion policy here so I Endorse. The argument is not about consensus but whether or not this is a marginaly notable individual. Spartaz 12:21, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse BLP articles ought to default to delete in no consensus cases. Therefore endorse delete to help establish precedent that it does come out that way at least some of the time (and should come out that way all the time). Further, the subject requested deletion. Marginal notability cases, subject request is sufficient reason to delete. Therefore endorse on those grounds as well. ++Lar: t/c 16:01, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse. Subject requested deletion, notability was marginal at best (multiple keep voters acknowledged it as well). Also, no consensus should default to delete on BLPs anyway, as Lar noted. Policies are changed by tradition, and this isn't a new thing. It's not in policy yet, but the tradition is already well on the side of this. Not only that, but Jimbo agrees that those of marginal notability should be able to opt-out. Lara 16:14, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse - Notability was marginal, subject requested deletion, which is a valid thing to take into account per this guideline. NW (Talk) 16:45, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse - I'm not seeing anything clearly erroneous here. The closer appropriately took into account the subject's wishes, and it seems to me that consensus here is that notability is marginal. Tim Song (talk) 16:52, 25 October 2009 (UTC)