Revision as of 05:33, 27 October 2009

Requests for enforcement

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Important informationShortcuts WP:AE WP:ARE Please use this page only to: request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator, request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic, request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators. For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. 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Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it. More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated. Closing a thread: Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days. Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct. You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages. Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log. Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

Cptnono

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Cptnono

User requesting enforcement:
Tiamut 14:15, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Cptnono (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:
Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:

1. Commenting on editors not content
2. Ditto
3. Ditto
4. Request from me that he stop commenting on editors and stick to discussing content
5. Cptnono continues to comment on editors (more generally) rather than content
6. Request from me (again) to stop speculating/commenting on editors' motivations
7. Cptnono continues to comments on editors. Excerpt: If you have Palestinian stuff on your user page you shouldn't be editing here.
8. User:Sean.hoyland defending User:Nableezy and calling for people to begin filing reports at WP:AE about problematic behaviour
9. Another request from me to Cptnono that he stop discussing users
10. Cptnono continues to justfy his discussion of other editors' motivations.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):

1. from me, from me again, from Nableezy. For the extended discussion relating to all of these warnings, see here.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
Official warning be issued regarding I-P arbcomm case that notes that commenting on editors rather than content is unacceptable. It just sidetracks discussion on the talk page, wastes time, and impedes progress in achieving consensus. Cptnono's edits do fall under the purview of this case, as is indicated by the template at the top of Talk:Gaza War, but he is not taking heed of the special restrictions. A specific warning referencing the Arb comm decision may help him to understand that commenting on editors rather than content is unacceptable (Perhaps a reminder that WP:AGF and WP:NPA do apply to him too?) Requests to stop from the editors he is commenting about have not seemed to help. Maybe hearing it from an admin will.
Additional comments by Tiamut:

• Tznaki, regarding your comment below, I did not ask for a sanction to be placed Cptnono for the diffs cited above. I made a very simple request that he be notified of the Arbcomm case formally and perhaps reminded that commenting on editors rather than content does nothing to foster a collaborative environment that is essential for article improvement. The lack of administrative response to what are clearly inappropriate comments is disappointing. (Please replace "Palestinian" with "Jewish" or "Israeli" to get an idea of how these ethnic references can be offensive and alienating.) After seeing these double standards on how such commentary is treated time and again however, I can't say that I am surprised. Tiamut 14:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested:

Discussion concerning Cptnono

Seeing as Cptnono says I stand behind my comments, it would be good to have an admin clarify if commenting on editors and their motivations is okay at I-P pages. If it is, I sure have a lot more to say. I've kept such thoughts (mostly) to myself, since my understanding is that by focusing on content and not contributors, we have a better chance of improving articles and a lower chance of pissing people off. Also, do admins agree with Ctpnono's statement that: If you have Palestinian stuff on your user page you shouldn't be editing here? Can I tell editors with Israeli symbols on their pages to take a hike from now on? Would I be immediately blocked for such a statement? Probably. Tiamut 09:55, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

I know it came across harsh but certain editors have not been responsible. Saying all was to far and I am happy to clarify that to some. I also do not believe there are any editors with Stars of Davids on the page. As a reminder, part of the reason that came up was another editor's assertion that Wikipeida is pro-israel. Furthermore, I wouldn't take offence if you said that editors who were editing in a biased manner should not be editing. We have to be neutral. I did not present the crticism with the intent to be malicious. I did it since we were discussing how to get the lock caused by other editors' edit warring lifted. I hope you understand that it was for the betterment of the article and not to attack anyone. I thought I made that clear so please understand that now if you didn't then.Cptnono (talk) 10:16, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Cptnono, but twice now you have used article talk pages to accuse first me, and then Nableezy of POV editing. In my case, you didn't cite any article edits I made, but instead focused on my user page content. In Nableezy's case, you harped on his lack of POV for taking a position opposed to yours on the issue of "the Gaza massacre". In both cases, you discussed (at length) our so-called motivations on the talk page, even after being asked to stop mutliple times. This is poisonous to the editing atmosphere and does nothing to help in the forging on consensus. Instead of discussing article content, the discussion falls into mutual recriminations or useless repetition (You are POV editing - No I'm not, please stop saying so - Yes you are - No I'm not stop it, etc., etc.) If you have a valid reason to suspet editors are engaged in POV editing, you can amass diffs and open an WP:AE case. Using article talk pages to issue unsubstantiated accusations is distracting and disruptive. And defending your right to do so after people ask you to stop is tendentious. Tiamut 10:45, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

And I stand by the accusations. I was overly crass with you which I apologized for but that doesn't change the fact that certain editors are only editing the page for a sole purpose. Many times this has lead to the railroading of content, skewing consensus to present information with a POV, and unnecessary reverts. You obviously did not deserve such a hard time but Nableezy clearly does deserve negative feedback (or constructive criticism as I said) from his history in my opinion and this is verified by several others criticizing him on related pages. I also think that I showed an obvious attempt to not attack him as a person but his editing. I was not attacking him personally like I did to you. In that situation I took a Wikibreak to chill out and apologized a day or so later. If you want this arbitration to be based off of that then say so but Nableezy should be able to discuss criticism about his editing. I presented links to another discussion bringing up the same charge. In this situation, you can ask me to stop all you want but it was a discussion that editors needed to be involved in and aware of. In regards to being disruptive, I was also making comments on how to get the lock lifted. I opened a few discussions. In two of issues I agree with what could easily come across against Israel. I wrote a draft. No one else was even trying. It is the exact opposite of being disruptive.Cptnono (talk) 11:04, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

The discussion ended awhile ago. I said what I thought needed to be said and went to bed before your request was even made here. I am not going to apologize since I was bringing up something in an attempt to better the article. Nableezy was showing that he was not willing to consider other options even though a few of us tried accommodating using the word "massacre" in the lead. He has still failed to show that it was used enough to deserve prominence over other terms but MrUnsignedAnon's new proposal could take care of that. So what is the point? Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Misplaced Pages, not to punish users so I assume that is out of the question. I have no problem with an admin saying not do it again if it is considered disruptive. I'll bring it up in a different venue (a notice board or case like this) if I feel it should be discussed. I did mention this but thought your request that I stop and Nableezy's comment warranted a response. I should also have my name added to the people made aware of the sanctions on the topic. If an admin is going to admonish me that is OK. I would request that several editors on that page who's edit warring led to the lock along with anyone campaigning gets the same treatment. This discussion is about stopping my disruptive editing (which stopped over 24 hours ago) though and no one else's so that other stuff shouldn't be discussed in detail here. If an admin wants to tell me if I was wrong or not then I am willing to accept their judgment. Cptnono (talk) 12:16, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Response to "Comments by other editors" seciton.

• SK: Thank you, Stellarkid. I think that is a perfect summary besides the gender. I also think it should be clear that I was a jerk a few weeks ago and felt my apology was in order.
• NAB: I have also clarified my statement to "some" editors. I see it as the same concern of when as editor accused Stellarkid of "advocacy" (Romac) on Oct 5 and you asserted that I (or other editors) were making "strawman' arguments and engaging in "strongarming" which didn't raise eyebrows. I told you after you made those comments that you were coming across poorly (I used "poopey") which was surprising to me since we typically have a good rapport. I didn't expect those allegations from you.

If we need to bring up a discussion for arbitration enforcement regarding our differences we should do it. I see you were just almost blocked again for edit warring today and I think it would be a shame for either of us to not be involved in the consensus finding for the lead but if you want to keep it going we should do it in the proper venue. This discussion, however, was Tiamut jumping into a discussion and assuming I was attacking you when I was clearly trying to give you needed criticism. I have clarified the single comment that was out of line and stopped discussing it on the page. This discussion is also not about what would happen if someone said it about Israeli's, leprechauns, or anything else so any concerns with Israeli bias on Wikipeida should be brought up somewhere else. And like I said, I don't care what blood flows through your veins since editing neutrally is my concern.Cptnono (talk) 05:25, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

• NNMNG: Thanks NMMNG. I loled at "WP:be-passive-aggressive" and liked your phrasing in the first paragraph as a much better summary than mine. In Tiamut's defense, I flat-out called her a liar a few weeks ago. I have since apologized but that would be upsetting to anyone so if that is part of it that is understandable. Alternatively, I'm not going to speculate if other editors are gaming the system with this arbitration for enforcement since I can't be sure that is what is going on and if anything this is a reminder to not rock the boat so hard!Cptnono (talk) 12:29, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
• NAB: You just accused Stellarkid of advocacy a few days ago. If you believe edits have been done solely to promote Israel you should tell me. That is my bad

And don't change the subject (me!) since I haven't shown up randomly to edit other articles in the topic. I also even explained to you the problem. I laid out perfectly clear that it appeared you were trying to WP:WIN and were given proposal that should have met all of your requests but you needed to have it asserted as a title which is incorrect (At least in a couple of our opinions). In regards to other editors with the colors, one who had never edited the article came out of nowhere and supported you and that has happened before. I agree with something that came from this enforcement: I should not have asserted that all editors with Palestinian, Hezbollah, or other colors should not be editing. I should have stopped at my previous comment of suggesting that they take a step back and reassess if they can edit or worded it similar to SK or NNMNG. I gave you a valid reason and I made it clear that it was not to hurt your feelings. I also did not launch into a tirade until it appeared that you were not willing to use administrative oversight. Yes you clarified it but initially that looked pretty bad. I don't see why we should not let other editors know when they are being viewed as editing with bias or gaming the system especially when there have been several cases of edit warring and such behavior. The concern was not to do it on the talk page and I stopped. I thought everyone should know since it was the charges impacted the specific article. If there is a next time I will seek administrative oversight instead of giving what I view as constructive criticism.Cptnono (talk) 00:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

ah crap... RomaC said it a line below you. That is my bad. However your comments were about strawman arguments, strongarming, and questioning if I had a POV concern . I don't mind if you feel that way. You can call me out at anytime and I should answer. As you suggest that can be continued on a user talk page if you want.Cptnono (talk) 02:21, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

• SK and Nab: I'm not offended and no striking out is needed. Nableezy can imply or make those charges if he wants. I deny it and will continue to say that people flying either flag need to watch out for bias. That isn't what this enforcement process is about so I'm find waiting and seeing how an admin feels and dropping it for now.Cptnono (talk) 06:44, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Tiamut: I did not see your additional comment earlier. Just a quick follow-up: I did tell Nableezy why I thought he was being biased. Stellarkid also gave an excellent summary of why he feels your user page is not constructive to the project. These are not attacks to be mean. It is constructive criticism since editors feel you need to hear it. Per the whole principle of the arbitration concern: Do you want to discuss this in another more appropriate venue (particular user page, arbitraiton enforcement, whatever)? This is supposed to be my party.Cptnono (talk) 07:05, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Cptnono

I stand behind my comments. The three sections below are a proper summary of any statement I could make (bold emphisis on a few lines not in original text)

• "I will not agree with BashBrannigan's suggestion since it asserts as a title and it is against the manual of style (Title's need to be bolded in the lead). My solution was dumbing down the lead to the point that there is no mention of Israel's operational name and to be frank it makes them look pretty bad (which they deserve to some extent of course). Even with this, I still including the term massacre since people did describe it as a massacre. Some people have even used it as a title but it was relativity rare when comparing it to the multiple other titles out there. If Nableezy requires it to be asserted as a title then there is a huge roadblock and we will have to add several others (which is like BashBrannigan suggestion only we will do it per MOS).''Also, regardless of the two of us agreeing or not (since it isn't required to not edit war and it isn't either of our's decision anyways), there was another series of edit warring that caused the page to get locked. It was over another editor's cleanup of someone else's cleanup of someone else's cleanup of a poorly laid out lead and a few other portions of the article. (please see the handful recently added discussions to this talk page and the reverts with several editor's names mentioned in the edit history).Cptnono (talk) 09:42, 9 October 2009 (UTC)"

• "Ok, this is out of proportions. Bring it to Arbritation and let them decide after we made our points heard. Then we lock part by part arbritated. For eternal time untuched my editors. Mr Unsigned Anon (talk) 10:52, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

No, that is not how it works. nableezy - 07:28, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm OK with any administrative action or oversight. Nableezy is fresh off of charges of gaming the system and winning by shear staying power with allegations of campaigning. ( here and here I like him but agree with the concern. Nableezy's priorities are Palestine and not Misplaced Pages. I know those look like horrible charges to make but he was presented with a perfectly fine option and disregarded any "compromise" (we shouldn't be compromising facts). I would like to think that he is an alright guy (I really do like him) but his edits show that there is a sole purpose and that is Palestine not Misplaced Pages. Cptnono (talk) 12:33, 10 October 2009 (UTC)"*

• "You made it clear that the discussion of edit waring did not involve me. You edit war on more than one Gaza-Israeli based pages. I full-on expect a negative response from you. I am doing it for constructive criticism since no one else has (including admins) when you need it. We can move this to a talk page if you want but I'm not calling you out to be a dick. I'm doing it since other editors perceive you as gaming the system.Cptnono (talk) 12:50, 10 October 2009 (UTC)"

*since inserting these comments from the talk page Nableezy has raised concerns that I was misrepresenting him. Nableezy clarified his "not how it works" comment with a comment about the process. This is an overview of my actions not his and the intent of using the statement was to show that I was happy to use other available methods to resolve the dispute.Cptnono (talk) 04:25, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Comments by other editors

I have to support Cptnono here. although I have only recently become involved in this article (and in WP) this accusation strikes me as terribly unfair. Cptnono has been trying to advance this article and maintain a NPOV. He has expressed his opinions on the talk page and never edit warred. I thought his opinions were carefully and deliberately spelled out and that they were dismissed, as were mine, and all others with a different viewpoint, out-of-hand. I noticed right away that editors who were in favor of removing "massacre" from the lede were reverted almost instantaneously by those who wished to include "massacre" in the lede. Warnings were put on the talk pages of the anti- folks. Requests to self-revert, ostensibly to achieve the same end as reverting, without the threat of 3RR noticeboard.

I see this action, and the one directly below it, against Shuki, as part of an attempt by certain editors to silence certain other editors. It begins when a small group of singleminded individuals come into an article and begin editwarring. They insist that consensus be achieved on the talk page, and then other like-minded individuals come in and refuse to cooperate on the article although they give a superficial appearance of doing so. Unwelcome, pov edits are made and insisted on, due to "lack of consensus" or other reasons. Then small things are blown up and an editor who was unhappy with a change is taken to some enforcement board or another, for lack of etiquette, too many reverts, or this board.

Can truth be a defense? In other words, is Cptnono correct when he claims bias? Take Tiamut for example. Tiamut has never been rude to me, though he has (in my opinion) a clear and demonstrated bias that effects his judgment.

These quotes prominently placed on his talk page, consider:

"I am a Palestinian. Hath not a Palestinian eyes? Hath not a Palestinian hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Jew is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that -- the villainy you teach me, I will execute; and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction." Tariq Ali's take on Shakespeare in the Khaleej Times

"It is not enough for the settler to delimit physically, that is to say with the help of the army and the police force, the place of the native. As if to show the totalitarian character of colonial exploitation the settler paints the native as a sort of quintessence of evil ... The native knows all this ... he knows that he is not an animal, and it is precisely at the moment he realizes his humanity that he begins to sharpen the weapons with which he will secure his victory. --From Frantz Fanon's The Wretched of the Earth

First paragraph is a Palestinian's "take" on Shylock. In Shakespeare, the Jew is the victim of the gentile. In Tiamut's world, the Palestinian is the victim of the Jew. He talks of being wronged, and of taking revenge. "The villany you teach me", he says he will execute, and do one better. The Jews have taught the Palestinian villainy and the Palestinians, according to this, will be even more villainous in return.

Taking a look at the second quote, we understand that the "settler" of which he speaks is a Jewish settler (an Israeli). Referring to the settler as demonstrating "the totalitarian character of colonial exploitation," he claims that (all) settlers paint the "natives" as evil, suggesting that they are animals. Palestinians, knowing that they are not animals, "begin to sharpen their weapons..."

This is the epitome of a battlefield mentality and I believe that editing I-P articles with such a mindset is not going to contribute to collaborative editing, but instead lead to editing warring and disruption such as this enforcement action and the similar one below. Stellarkid (talk) 04:36, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

There are so many things wrong with the above. To begin with the simple things, Tiamut is a she, Tariq Ali is not a Palestinian, and Franz Fanon was not writing about Israel, though some may feel his words apply to the situation. But the biggest problem with the above, and with Cptnono's comments about having Palestinian flags on userpages disqualifying somebody from editing, is that it is strictly an argument directed at the person and not the substance of that person's argument. People should not be making such comments, and any user making comments that any user with an Israeli flag on their user page should be disqualified from editing would be swiftly subject to at least a topic ban, and rightly so. nableezy - 04:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree that Cptnono was doing a bit of hyperbole about the flags. He did not limit himself to the flag of one side or the other. His argument was meant more abstractly as pointed out in the post below, by NoMoreMrNiceGuy. That Tiamut is a she, or that Tariq Ali is not a Palestinian ,or that Ferdinand's comments were not directed to Israel makes no difference. I was talking on a more abstract level. Tiamut expresses her bias very clearly on her user page, what she considers to be "settled" opinion, no pun intended. The trouble is in the area of I-P conflict, one has to be sensitive to the other side's view if there is to be collaboration. When one considers the other side "the enemy," there is little doubt that one will act upon it, whether in his editing, or in the manner in which he handles his "enemies," that is, by trying to get the "authorities" involved on his "side." Stellarkid (talk) 15:33, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

He actually did limit himself to one "sides" flag. But we dont judge editors based on their political leanings or what they put on their user page, we judge them based on their article edits and their interactions with others. If you, or anybody else, has a problem with what is on Tiamut's user talk page dont look at it. Do you think it is easy for "the other side" to work with those who have boxes expressing support for Yisrael Beiteinu, a party that has called for forced expulsions of Arabs and has been called variously fascist, racist, and ultra-racist? Or users who have user boxes proclaiming that independence for Palestinians "has been achieved with the establishment of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan"? What do you think the reaction would be if I were to say "X user has an Israeli flag on their user page, that user should not be allowed to edit in areas dealing with Israel"? But this misses the point. Do not focus your attention on the user, focus it on the argument. If there are behavioral issues, focus on the actual behavior. Not "she has some words on her user page I dont like". nableezy - 16:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

He did say something to that effect, see . He specifically referred to the Star of David being on a user's page. It was a metaphor for activism on either side. It is unfair to paint him as Arabphobic or supportive of far-right in Israel as you are implying. I would think you would strike the above comment as inappropriate. Stellarkid (talk) 06:22, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

You, again, miss the point. And I did not imply that he "Arabphobic" or "supportive of far-right in Israel". But, again, that is besides the point. To repeat the missed point, you should not be making comments on what you think are other editors motivations but on the edits that user makes. As much as I dislike those who continuously repeat the following phrase, I will write it down once. Focus on content, not on editors. We get it this time or will there be another response that completely misses the point? nableezy - 06:51, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I think it is you who misses the point. It appears that content has been discussed for some 57(?) archived pages in less than a year. As has been demonstrated, the "massacre" question has been discussed almost that long. There comes a time when it is appropriate to ask if there are some editors who are purposefully impeding collaboration due to bias and POV. Stellarkid (talk) 16:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I think what Cptnono meant when talking about Palestinian flags on userpages is that there are unabashed activists for Palestinian nationalism (or other political agendas), who care more about their political leanings than improving Misplaced Pages, and that if your activism is so important to you that you cover your userpage with your politics, maybe it would be better if you involved yourself in other areas of this encyclopedia.

Cptnono's main mistake was that he forgot about WP:be-passive-aggressive and said what he thought in no uncertain terms, which resulted in Tiamut filing this request (not on her own behalf but for someone with similar political leanings, funnily enough).

There's little doubt in my mind that this request (and the one following it) weren't filed because someone said something not so nice on a couple of occasions (as if the requester herself doesn't do that on occasion - proof to be supplied on request), but to silence active editors of perceived opposing political views. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 12:01, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

NMMNG, Your post is a series of personal attacks based on my user page content rather than the content of my edits. I understand that my pride in my identity is offensive to you, but like Nableezy said, you are not forced to look at my user or talk pages. For someone so irritated by my political leanings, you do seem to go out of your way to interact with me. Perhaps it is not I seeking a WP:BATTLE?

The reason I filed this complaint is simple: Cptnono was discussing contributors and not content at Talk:Gaza War. He has done it before too. He was asked by more than one editor to stop. He did not. He continued to defend his right to speculate about the motivations of his fellow editors, even here.

You have done that too. Providing no diffs of disruptive activity (even when requested to previously mutliple times), he (and you) feel free to cast aspersions upon me and Nableezy because we have flags on our pages? Should every editor who has a flag on his page be banned from editing in related topic areas? Or is it just Arab ones that are verboten? Please point to disruptive editing patterns (filing a case here with diffs and everything). Otherwise, I would ask that you stop distracting people with unsupported accusations. Tiamut 17:17, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

My post was about user pages in general, not specifically about yours. I don't understand why you think everything I do revolves around you and frankly I probably lack the professional expertise to find out. I do not care about your identity nor your political leanings other than when they negatively influence the edits you make in this encyclopedia. I wish you'd stop repeately accusing me of an interest in you I don't even remotely have. Seriously.

I'd also appreciate it if you'd stop implying I am racist against Arabs like you did above or here. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:45, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

She said you were exploiting "people's latent racism against Arabs". And you, as well as Cptnono, specifically said "Palestinian flags" and you said "unabashed activists for Palestinian nationalism", though you did throw in "(or other political agendas)" though I have yet to see you raise an issue with users promoting extreme right-wing Israeli agendas or any other supposed political agenda. And it can be easily demonstrated that you have "an interest" in Tiamut's edits, randomly showing up in the most obscure articles shortly after she had edited a page. No matter though, the point here is that people should not be commenting on what they think an editor's motivations are. If there is something objectionable in her, or mine or anybody elses, edits then explain the problem with the edits. It is not that difficult to understand. Many of us have made personal attacks, though this unabashed and tireless defense of those attacks is worrisome. I think all sorts of things about many users, such as you or Stellarkid or a number of others, regarding their motivations or "professional" nature of their time here, but I keep it to myself. nableezy - 18:21, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Cptnono, where did I accuse him of "advocacy". I made comments about his edits. And I really dont care that you said that to me. You should not have said it where you said it and you are wrong and so many other things could be said about your comments, but me caring is not one of them. The rest of my response to NMMNG was about his comments that were directed at Tiamut. If you want to have a reasoned conversation about my editing my talk page would be a good place to start (mind the banner at the top though). This has been much ado over nothing, though it was exacerbated by some of your comments. Could somebody please close this out? Nothing is going to be accomplished here. nableezy - 02:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Are you saying that this case should end with no action taken? Personally, I'm inclined to agree= I vehemently disagree with Cptnono's commentary but I don't believe that administrative actions here would really contribute to making things better. The Squicks (talk) 19:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Notification of the ARBPIA case would be fine (that is all Tiamut requested) and I think any editor who is edits in the area should receive that notification (I actually asked an admin to notify me) but it would not be the end of the world if that did not happen. nableezy - 20:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

• This thread is much too lengthy. I hope not one of you expect the administrator who reviews the complaint to read this discussion in its entirety. AGK 00:24, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

This board doesn't seem to be very effective at all. If an admin popped in five days ago to simply say "On article talk pages, comment on content not contributors please," proceeding to give Cptnono notification of the Arbcomm case (something even he agreed should happen above), there wouldn't be a magnum opus to read here. Instead, the thread was left to languish for five days, people were allowed to make all sorts of wild speculations, and then the first admin to comment says he hopes we don't expect other to read all this. I don't like reading it either. Much of the "discussion" is a series of unsubstantiated accusations. Commenting on editors at AE without providing diffs substantiating commentary is also strangely tolerated here. What is this place? A kangeroo court? Tiamut 01:14, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Result concerning Cptnono

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

This entire area may require a clean sweep and the removal of many editors. This particular case does not have diffs that are t particularly illustrative of a behavioral problem that can be eliminated via sanction, and I do not have time to carefully read through the extended comments above. I do note that the diffs suggest that this is an interpersonal conflict between two editors apparently on different "sides" of a real world political dispute. As incredulous as it sounds we both expect better behavior here, and have become resigned to worse.--Tznkai (talk) 23:27, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Shuki

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Shuki

User requesting enforcement:
untwirl(talk) 19:17, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Shuki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated
Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate it, and an explanation how they do so

1. , , , , , , - these were the edits shuki was warned about on 10/7
2. continuing changes after warning
3. continuing changes after warning
4. more edit warring (along with inappropriate commentary insinuating racism)
5. continuing changes after warning
6. continuing changes after warning
7. plus all of these from the user's contributions:
8. 10:03, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Ma'on ‎ (Undid revision 318718235 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
9. 10:03, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Immanuel (town) ‎ (Undid revision 318716885 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
10. 10:03, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Beit Horon ‎ (rv OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
11. 10:02, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Alon Shvut ‎ (Undid revision 318718337 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
12. 10:01, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Efrat ‎ (Undid revision 318718628 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
13. 10:01, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Kiryat Arba ‎ (Undid revision 318718824 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
14. 10:00, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Avnei Hefetz ‎ (Undid revision 318719858 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
15. 10:00, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Ma'ale Mikhmas ‎ (Undid revision 318719976 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
16. 10:00, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Kokhav HaShahar ‎ (Undid revision 318720051 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
17. 10:00, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Sha'arei Tikva ‎ (Undid revision 318720146 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
18. 09:59, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Beit El ‎ (Undid revision 318720326 by Nableezy (talk)OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
19. 09:59, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Alon, Mateh Binyamin ‎ (OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
20. 09:58, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Barkan ‎ (Undid revision 318720575 by Nableezy (talk)OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
21. 09:58, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Ma'ale Adumim ‎ (Undid revision 318646193 by Dailycare (talk) unneeded edit, might construe all Palestinian settlements as holding same status)
22. 09:57, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Adora, Har Hebron ‎ (Undid revision 318719523 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy)

1. Notification of sanctions by CIreland (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
2. Warning by CIreland (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) "Shuki (talk · contribs) is notified of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles and the article in question watchlisted. I would be inclined to apply discretionary sanctions if the edit-warring over the order of adjectival phrases in the ledes of such articles continues. Involved editors may prefer to go to WP:AE for further reports."

Editor notified

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
whatever action admins deem appropriate; topic ban editing topic ban, narrowly construed and excluding talk pages so the editor can participate in discussion seems most likely to help since warnings and notifications haven't.

Additional comments
This editor is edit warring over calling israeli settlements "villages" or "kibbutzes" first instead of the most common name: Israeli settlements. After being warned and notified of sanctions, shuki has continued this behavior aggressively. I went ahead and returned most articles to their consensus based state, however I will not continue to revert. This issue needs admin attention.
Due to shuki's concern's in exchange, i have stricken and adjusted my suggested remedy. untwirl(talk) 22:11, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Shuki

Statement by Shuki

The only thing that I am going to say on this here is that it is plain 'weenie' and bad faith pre-emptive effort to gang up and silence me after I was merely notified of the existence of the I-P sanctions (and you might all need to admit that I am one of the most prominent I-P area editors who has not received this official notice until now because of simply not needing to).

A) There is absolutely no warning of sanctions as explicitly stated by admin Clerland.

B) The Untwirl user did not even bother to open a section on WP:AN3, instead went for the kill on this page.

C) The user Untwirl abused WP:AGF by not even giving me a week to digest the 'notification'.

D) I already announced last week that I plan on opening a DR later this week (because of G below).

E) I already started a pre-DR discussion at WP Israel in order to avert a mass edit war by multiple editors that Untwirl, unfortunately, could not resist joining in.

F) The discussion is already dominated by non-WP Israel members because...

G) last week and this weekend is a religious Jewish holiday around the world and

H) I am certainly expecting opposing editors to respect that.

I) If anything, I suggest that it is Untwirl who is now the next candidate to receive notification of Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Log_of_notifications for his controversial unilateral reverts on 10 October 2009 while a healthy discussion has already begun and for opening a false and misleading request on this page which has put an undeserved mark on my username, especially given my taking the lead in the attempt to resolve this conflict. --Shuki (talk) 21:35, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Comments by other editors

I dont think this is necessary, Shuki said that a WP:DR process would be started shortly over this issue and I dont think it would be a problem to wait on that before doing anything here. IMO this should be closed without any action. nableezy - 19:26, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

sorry, i missed that statement by shuki. could you provide a link, please? this is the user's last contribution and i don't see any statement that an rfc or dr process is being started. plus, all of those edits are after the notification and warning by an uninvolved admin. untwirl(talk) 19:37, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

I plan on opening a WP:DR early next week. nableezy - 20:22, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

how does that statement on 10/9 justify diffs # 2-6 on 10/10? untwirl(talk) 20:28, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

I am not trying to justify anything, I am saying that the best way forward would be an RfC on the topic which Shuki said would be forthcoming. That being the case I think it would be fair to wait on that RfC and see what happens. nableezy - 20:44, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

he was warned on the 7th. made many related edits on the 9th. said on the 9th he would seek DR. on the 10th continued on the same issue without seeking dr. you can't just say, "i'm going to seek dr next week" and then continue doing the same thing you have been warned about. i dont understand why you are defending this behaviour. untwirl(talk) 20:48, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Comment—actually this is a content dispute, and the editor who most clearly violated policy is not Shuki, as explained here (in reference to Nableezy). The user was notified in the past of the case, therefore I request that the enforcement be extended to include him as well, if action is taken against Shuki. —Ynhockey 00:46, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
P.S. I have only now noticed that the user who filed this request did exactly the same thing that they are accusing Shuki of doing—a mass revert in the articles in question. This does not help matters, and the things I said in the linked-to post apply here as well. —Ynhockey 01:00, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Your accusation of me violating policy was nonsense the first time you made it, it is no less nonsensical now. nableezy - 01:43, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Ynhockey, I think your comment is rather unhelpful and misrepresents the situation. Nableezy's objectives and actions increase the compliance of article content with mandatory core policies. Shuki's actions decrease the compliance of article content with mandatory core policies. Nableezy argues by referring to core policies. Shuki and others argue using subjective emotional feelings about the meaning of words and people's intentions. Dispute resolution is the right course but it would certainly help if everyone could stick to just making policy based arguments and stop treating wikipedia as an ethnic battleground. If this AE request reduces the about of non-policy based actions/statements by editors then that is a good thing in ny view. Sean.hoyland - talk 03:08, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

if requested by an uninvolved admin i will happily self-revert. i was simply undo-ing the actions which shuki had been warned not to continue. untwirl(talk) 01:07, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion?

I think it is worth pointing out that in addition to the more general I-P case, there was a subsequent one dealing with the “Judea and/or Samaria” vs “West Bank” naming dispute. The underlying issue there was fairly similar – does WP follow the terminology used by the vast majority of real world English-language sources, even within Israel, to describe something; or does it use a minority terminology? As with this issue, it also spread itself across multiple pages. It would seem to me that WP rules are pretty clear on this, eg in respect of place names at least, per WP:NCGN – “By following modern English usage, we also avoid arguments about what a place ought to be called, instead asking the less contentious question, what it is called.” I was one of the editors who ended up being topic banned in that decision, when ArbCom decided to ban everyone they thought was involved in past edit wars over the issue, regardless of which “side” they were on, or what sins they may or may not have actually committed. In some cases, this was as few as 4-5 reverts over a two to three month period around the beginning of 2009, several months prior to the case even being heard (see this table). Anyway, I’m not commenting here in a bid to violate my topic ban, or in order to ask for User:Shuki to be clobbered, but because it seems relevant for the following reasons –

• That decision does set a clear precedent that this kind of thing is, to say the least, frowned upon
• Shuki should know this, because they were involved in edit warring on the West Bank issue along with everyone else at the beginning of 2009 (eg here, here, here, etc) and were lucky not to get caught by the decision (it was fairly arbitrary in terms of who it hit, and the grounds on which it hit people). That makes it doubly bad that they are continuing to do pretty much the same thing all over again, especially in terms of following an editor to multiple articles to make contentious changes
• The West Bank decision also called for some sort of formal guidelines for the underlying West Bank vs J&S naming issue to be agreed. Oddly perhaps, this was not even included as part of the proposed decision at first, and even when it eventually was, it did not call for a wider I-P naming convention. Even though – ahem – some of us were calling for precisely that from the outset of the case, and had to repeat that point subsequently before even the limited provision was included in the final decision. It was fairly obvious all along that a related issue would just blow up somewhere else a couple of months down the line, as several people pointed out to ArbCom as their plans for dealing with the case became clear

Anyway, it seems the most obvious solution is to expand those guidelines to include the settlement point, as well as any other relevant disputed I-P naming issues, and for this to be done under ArbCom’s gaze, as before. As, perhaps, should have been done in the first place. --Nickhh (talk) 09:01, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Just looked over the links in the above post (obviously did not read the total case) but see that a lot of established editors on WP were banned from editing in the area indefinitely. This seems to me to be handling an issue that should require scalpels with a butcher knife instead, and we see now that the underlying (larger) issues were not addressed. If the question of Judea&Samaria were the only issue it would be (mostly) fixed now. J&S is clearly only a symptom of a larger problem, one that will not be solved through the use of a butcher knife. Stellarkid (talk) 15:55, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I fully support this proposed approach. I had a similar idea involving centrally agreed standardised content statements about these issues that could be deployed to the relevant articles to ensure global consistency and global consensus e.g. a statement about the occupation status of X would be a globally standard statement with a standard set of refs that has been agreed centrally. We can't keep having the same arguments over and over and over again. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:19, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure I agree. Guidelines perhaps, but "centrally agreed standardized content statements" "to ensure global consensus" only enforces a possibly probably false consensus and does not take into consideration that consensus can change with the facts. Further it is unlikely that a real consensus can be agreed upon when you have two groups so diametrically opposed. When Israel comes to an agreement with the Palestinians ("final status")- and vice versa - then an appropriate consensus can be made. Until then, it will be like the U.S. Republicans and the U.S. Democrats agreeing on a President, that is, either a false consensus or a forced consensus. Stellarkid (talk) 15:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to imply that the statements would be static in nature. Consensus could change but the changes would be centralised as would be the discussions. It means you would have one ongoing discussion for one issue that evolves rather than many fragmented edit wars distributed over the project. Sean.hoyland - talk 02:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed - I’m not sure Misplaced Pages needs to wait until a final status agreement for the real world Israeli-Palestinian dispute before a group of (hopefully) rational, well-informed and reasonably objective people here can come to an agreement about what certain things are currently called, or how they are referred to, in most English language sources; and then apply that agreement across all related articles. Those articles have to say something, and hopefully say something accurate – the choice is between agreeing it centrally, or fighting over it again and again on every individual page; not between whether people have the debate or not. Of course, that agreement can then be updated if and when the terminology in the outside world changes (not something that's imminent, I suspect, in any event). And the status of MEPP, or what either “side” - let’s assume for the sake of argument that they each think as a homogenous whole - involved in the conflict happens to think at any one point in time, actually has very little to do with it (a mistake ArbCom made when they figured the West Bank vs Judea & Samaria issue as if it was partisans from each side slugging it out). Each of them can argue what they like – it’s what the majority of uninvolved, mainstream international sources use at the moment that’s what counts. Anyway, I've said my piece I guess, and have no wish to be involved substantively, even if I were allowed to be under the slightly bizarre and unevenly applied punishment regime in force in this area. Perhaps this is better raised anyway at the arbitration noticeboard or something? --Nickhh (talk) 07:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Result concerning Shuki

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

As I mentioned in a different section, the entire topic area seems to be a breeding ground for bad behavior. I am leaning towards a revert and move restriction.--Tznkai (talk) 23:33, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Abbatai

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Abbatai banned from reverting without discussion for 3 months. AGK 13:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Abbatai

User requesting enforcement:
Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 02:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Abbatai (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:
Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2

Note: It is to be assumed that it is this sub-section that is being cited. AGK 23:52, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:

1. , First revert made by Abbatai, along with unnecessarily rude and snide remark
2. , Second revert

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):

1. Warning by Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
Indefinite topic ban on Armenian-Turkey articles/year long block

Additional comments by Marshal Bagramyan (talk):
This user has had a long history of vandalism and disruption on articles relating to Armenia and Turkey, and particularly on the Armenian Genocide. He was blocked on two consecutive occasions for aggressively adding unsourced POV and revert warring on the Iğdır article. He recently just reverted me, sans discussion, on that article, removing the Armenian name for the town, even though I cited reliable sources on its relevance; he also re-inserted misleading information on Armenian Genocide on the same article. He was blocked for one week for incivility and as it clearly shows above, he clearly does not care about that rule.

He now has violated 1RR on the Armenia–Turkey relations article, and is once more adding POV and factually inaccurate information on the Armenian Genocide, without even showing an inclination to discuss or explain his edits. I believe more stringent action is needed, given his propensity to insult and revert war his way through articles.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested:

Discussion concerning Abbatai

Statement by Abbatai

Those users who blame me see wikipedia as a antiturkism propaganda tool.I should say that because of those editors wikipedia includes many antiturkish articles.I am just trying to be objective and make wikipedia objective.Also I never denied Armenian genocide.Just look at Igdir they remove citations that verify turkish massacres by armenians and they deny the massacres.I hope you will see their subjective and antiturkish thinking way.--Abbatai (talk) 12:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

(Abbatai's statement moved from another section.) AGK 12:38, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• With respect, you don't seem to have responded to the merits of the accusation that has been made. Rather, you simply have tried to discredit the persons who have filed the request. The most useful comments from you would be ones that would counter the evidence cited in this complaint. AGK 12:40, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Comments by other editors

• Abbatai reverted twice within a short period of time, and in both instances without any apparent attempts at discussion with the other party to the disagreement. In light of the fact that he has previously been issued a warning with a link to the Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 discretionary sanctions remedy, I am inclined to agree that Abbatai ought to be sanctioned. The severity of the sanction would, however, depend on the context of the disagreement and on how positive Abbatai's behavioural record has been (on the article and in the subject area in question). I would welcome comment on this note. Additionally, I would welcome a statement from Abbatai and also other useful input.

  Having also reviewed the disagreement that forms the context of this complaint, I would like to register my disappointment that on both occasions where Abbatai has changed the title of the "Armenian revolutionary movement" section, he has been reverted without any discussion—in one case by Kansas Bear and in the other by MarshallBagramyan (who filed this complaint). A wider shift from reversion to discussion and co-operation seems to be necessary for all involved in this dispute, and so (as, admittedly, but a preliminary comment), I would suggest that it may be the case that article-wide sanctions are needed to discourage unproductive conflict. At the very least, however, I think that Kansas Bear and Marshall ought to be formally notified of the A-A2 discretionary sanctions remedy (if this has not previously been done).

  Again, comment on my remarks is welcome. Apologies for the excessive length of this post. AGK 23:49, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

• Note: I intend to close (and act on) this complaint, in much the same vein as above, by Saturday evening (UTC)—absent any further developments. AGK 12:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
• A little late, but now closed. AGK 13:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Result concerning Abbatai

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• Abbatai (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is prohibited from making any revert to any article in the subject areas relating to the Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 arbitration case (including Armenian Genocide) except where the revert is supported by an editorial consensus established on an appropriate discussion page. This prohibition is in place for a period of 3 months. Where Abbatai is unsure that a consensus for his edit exists, he should pursue appropriate methods of discussion and dispute resolution. Likewise, where consensus on an issue seems to be divided, dispute resolution should be pursued.

  This sanction is made under the provisions of the discretionary sanctions remedy of the A-A 2 case, and is logged accordingly. (My rationale for sanctioning Abbatai so is that it has been established (both in this complaint and on multiple other occasions that he is unable to resist the temptation to blankly revert his fellow editors when they make an edit to an A-A article with which he disagrees. Removing his right to revert without first establishing a consensus to do so seems to me to be a quite logical remedy.)

  Additionally, Kansas Bear (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and MarshallBagramyan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) are both formally notified of the discretionary sanctions remedy and that they may be sanctioned if their conduct is found in the future to be below communal standards.

  AGK 13:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Mr Unsigned Anon

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Mr Unsigned Anon

User requesting enforcement:
Tyw7  (Talk • Contributions) 22:49, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Mr Unsigned Anon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:
Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:

1. --dragged up case
2. -Archieved Wikiquette alerts
3. Wikiquette alerts - Both Wikiquette alerts ended in stalemate with both side agreeing to end the "war". --Tyw7  (Talk • Contributions) 21:35, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):

1. [http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Jiujitsuguy&oldid=318711814#Disengaging_from_disputes (dito for the other editor)

--Notice to disengage-Warning by untwirl (talk · contribs)

1. User_talk:Jiujitsuguy#Please_disengage--Gaza_War-Warning by Tyw7 (talk · contribs)
2. User_talk:Mr_Unsigned_Anon/Archive_1#Disengaging_from_disputes-Warning by untwir (talk · contribs)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
Up to administrator discretion (Jehochman 13:30, 20 October 2009 (UTC))

Additional comments by Tyw7  (Talk • Contributions):
This war has been going on for sometime and repeatedly dragged up.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested:

Discussion concerning Mr Unsigned Anon

Statement by Mr Unsigned Anon

Short version: Jiujitsuguy started with namecalling around 5 oct and insinuated I was a nazist

• Revert to your heart's desire just don't call it the Gaza War or Operation Cast Lead. Call it a recruiting poster for Hamas and don't forget to throw in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" while you're at it.

after removing somthing he considered important. I complained at his talk checked his IP and googled his username. I brought it up at Wikiquett. I was told it belong in arbitration and backed off. I was during that time frustrated of being framed as a nazi and after finding Jiujitsuguys ISP in Brooklyn and his postings seemed to only support Israels side in IP-conflict. I also faced his reverts of my NPOV-ing in article Gaza War. I later googled him and found him writing to a sionist/neocon blog asking for help editing wikipedia in "Any assistance you can extend to reverse this bias/censorship would be appreciated" .

Then BOOM he went to counterattack using false accusations, a faulty and flawed list of editdiffs and next excuse himself imediatly followed with

• "The article was shaping up to be pretty good, though when it comes to Middle East, no one can be entirely satisfied. But comes along Mr Anon Unsigned and starts reverting like a mad man with out regard for any etiquette or decorum. It was very frustrating to see the long process of editing going down the toilet" .

The list is a very bad faithed attack in it self, compiled by Stellarkid (talk), whos involvement been increasing dueing this conflict. He still today stands for some of the faulty accusations in the list.

Conflict escalated again at oct 8 when Jiujitsuguy edit warred article Gaza War, asked for its protection a few minutes after his last revert, same time throw this accusation on the admins talkpage.

• "The most vile of the bunch is Mr Unsigned Anon (talk) who was already warned that he would be blocked for persistent vandalism to this site. Please go to his talk page to see what I'm referring to" .

He refer to the warning, now removed by the uninvolved editor who wrote it, comming from the false list of claimed edit warring by me.

Again at oct 16 he make a false accusation . This is absolutly false. In detail described at my complaint at ANI

Then Jiujitsuguy with help of Stellarkid started a campain against me, using quotes out of context, trying to frame me as a nazi again I understand. Im still not sure of th scope of it. I filed a complaint of his last editwarring and now his banned for a week. I must point to his, blatant lying and like stellarkid, use of very manipulative languages. Also posting of quotes of me, even if some are totally harmless, bolded and hard cut out of context in a way that word cant describe. This is a first statement and I will follow it up (and copyedit for spellings etc). Mr Unsigned Anon (talk) 15:32, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I like to point to my 8 october response to Jiujitsuguys accusations and my 9 oct attempt to get advice how to proceed at Enigma talkpage after he protected article 'Gaza war' (on Jiujitsus request a few minutes after he did his last revert, violated 3RR in the article and pasted the usual accusation about me).Mr Unsigned Anon (talk) 09:45, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Response to RomaC. Im not innocent of wrongdoings but some importent things should talk to my favour and not put me on same level of editwarrinng and aggressive editing in 'Gaza War' that should be punishable. I did stepp back a few days before the 8 oct editwar that led to articleprotection. I did step back in the last editwar with Jiujitsuguy even if I technically could have done a last revert without breaking 3RR leaving his version in article. I noted and informed him of his 3 reverts on his talkpage and even marked that editwarring dont need 3RR violation but he still continued editwarring and reverted another editors at another part of article. His 4:th revert. Therfor, respectfully RomaC, you cant compare my level of editwarrin with his. I let him 'win' in both cases (well there is more) even if I could have got my will thrugh without breaking 3RR. Mr Unsigned Anon (talk) 09:43, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Response to Tyw7. I should have adressed you first, sorry for that. But, respectfully, I dont really understand whats my wrongdoing is. Wikiquett is what I understand the right way to go in cases like this. And I backed off. The next action from Jiujitsuguy led to your mistake which you corrected (the warning of vandalizing on my talkpage). I had to clarify and put that mess of nonsence (the false list of editdiffs)in right perspective or being marked as a vandal. Am I to blame in any aspect of this? My case on ANI is a response to Jiujitsuguys lies on Nableezys talkpage ]. What am I to blame in that? Though I am thankfull for you to bring up this as I hope I can get a chans to respond jiujitsuguys shenanigan (with help of Stellarkid.) They unfortunatly quite effective turn uninvolved editor and admins against me. Mr Unsigned Anon (talk) 14:07, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Comments by other editors

Mr Unsigned Anon has been here about a month, and has become involved in disputes (on Gaza War), often with Jiujitsuguy, who has been here about a month and a half. I see that Jiujitsuguy has now been blocked for a week. Perhaps if the same message were sent to Anon both could come back and work more less aggressively, more constructively? In my opinion a problem shared by these editors is that they understand that all content in Misplaced Pages should be supported by reliable sources, but don't appreciate that not all content supported by reliable sources necessarily belongs in a given article. It's the first time I've seen source-warring! Respectfully, RomaC (talk) 14:16, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Result concerning Mr Unsigned Anon

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Request is malformed and missing adequate information as well as notification.--Tznkai (talk) 23:35, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Can you please "format" this for me. I am quite unexperienced in these matters. --Tyw7  (Talk • Contributions) 01:16, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I cannot. I need more information from you, as to what you are talking about, what you are asking for, and you need to show you've notified whoever you're in conflict with of this discussion.--Tznkai (talk) 01:47, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Tz, check the diffs currently at WP:RFAR. There is very worrisome conduct. Don't dismiss this. Jehochman 10:49, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Mr Unsigned Anon (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) appears to be a recycled user. For somebody who's been here less than a month, it's odd that they have references to WP:NAM all over their talk page. They made a bee line straight to the PIA dispute and engaged in the battle. Could a checkuser see whether this account is controlled by somebody who is already banned or restricted? Jehochman 13:34, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

J.—You had best flag a checkuser down directly. I don't think many of them watch this page routinely, as checks aren't frequently necessary. AGK 21:35, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The diffs cited by Mr. Unsigned Anon show incitement. I am disinclined to sanction an editor who reacts badly under pressure or incitement. Mr. Unsigned Anon, if others are acting badly, that does not excuse you to respond in kind. Please rise above it. Whoever you may be, consider this a chance to do better. If I spot you causing trouble going forward, I will be much more inclined to run that checkuser. If you are a target of incitement, go find an administrator and ask for help, don't take the bait. I suggest closing this request. Jehochman 02:23, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Jacurek

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Jacurek

User requesting enforcement:
Skäpperöd (talk) 08:27, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Jacurek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:
Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary_sanctions: "impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to Eastern Europe, broadly interpreted) if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process"

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:
Jacurek does not adhere to the purpose of wikipedia and normal editorial process:

At History of Pomerania (1945–present), he deletes sourced information or replaces sourced information leaving the ref in place, so as if his comments were attributed to this ref. He has neither presented a source of his own, nor has he engaged in discussion. It was several times pointed out to him that the information he deletes/alters is sourced.

For what it matters, the source he primarily deletes or replaces with his comments is a book cooperatively written by Polish and German historians, all experts on Pomeranian history, published in Polish and German in 1999.

Background

• User:Jacurek is a member of the "EEML" currently subject to Arbcom investigation
• User:Jacurek has been edit warring repeatedly during the EEML case, and had avoided sanctions by agreeing to voluntary 1rr at least twice this month .

Prelude

• 08:31, 23 October: User:Xx236 rants on WP:Poland . User:Xx236 is topic banned from issues concerning the expulsions of Germans after World War II, this at least partially includes the history of Pomerania in/after 1945. Xx236 has dropped Jacurek a note similar to the WP:Poland note on 22 October .
• 14:04, 23 October: User:Xx236 canvasses to History of Pomerania (1945–present) on WP:Poland
• 14:06, 23 October: User:Loosmark deletes the category "History of Pomerania" and the "Pomeranian history" navbox from the article, no edit summary

Timeline

• 15:38 - 15:43, 23 October: User:Jacurek alters sourced content making a Communist propaganda term appear like a normal one, no edit summary
• 16:23, 23 October: I restore the sourced phrase, the cat and the navbox
• 18:58 - 18:59, 23 October: User:Jacurek introduces a strange attribution ("according to two sources") and fact tags to a sourced paragraph
• 19:22 - 19:24, 23 October: I remove the attribution and replace the fact tags with the respective reference already given at the paragraph's end and point out in the edit summary that the ref at the paragraph's end sources the whole paragraph
• 20:43 - 21:07, 23 October: User:Jacurek deletes and alters several sourced paragraphs . As in the previous cases, the sources were left in place giving the new version an appearance of reflecting these sources.
• 21:57, 23 October: I restore the sourced paragraphs and left Jacurek a note on his talk
• 22:24, 23 October: User:Jacurek reverts . While Jacurek's edits generally lack an edit summary, he left one here accusing me of doing "mass reverts" and telling me to discuss my edits first. A similar message was left on my talk .
• 22:24, 23 October - 06:15, 24 October: Jacurek makes 71 edits, placing fact tags into sourced paragraphs, altering and deleting sourced information while leaving the ref in place, and Polonizing all placenames regardless of Gdanzig vote/naming conventions . Not all of these edits are disruptive, but since he does not use edit summaries, it is hard to single out the actual disruptive revisions in the general diff above.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
topic ban or conditional block (except for ongoing arbcom case)

Additional comments by Skäpperöd (talk):

• This is not a content dispute as it is sources vs no sources.
• Since this is related to the ongoing EEML arbcom, I linked this thread on those pages . However, the removal/rephrasing of sourced material is an issue requiring relatively prompt response, and can not await the outcome of arbcom (which atm tends to amnesty anyway).
• Another user left a note on my talk page pointing to similar problems with Jacurek at another article - probably, this needs to be investigated too.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested:

Re:Loosmark

• Please outline how repeatedly removing sourced content, replacing sourced content with own oppinions leaving the refs in place, not presenting any source themselves, leaving no edit summaries, and covering that up with 71 minor edits can be described as "valid", "content dispute" and "NPOV".
• Regardian Varsovian: I welcome everyone with a redlinked talk page, with the exception of obvious SPAs. Varsovian is unknown to me, and your assessment may or may not be true, I can not comment on that.

Re:Jacurek

• regarding "mass revert to his preferred version" - I even took the trouble to manually restore the sourced information you deleted and multiply the sources at the end of the respective paragraphs to show behind each of the paragraph's sentences, also I applied the Gdanzig rule to multiple placenames you replaced. Your slogan "mass revert" is only that - a slogan.

Discussion concerning Jacurek

Statement by Jacurek

I did nothing else but editing the article in a total good faith. In my opinion user Skäpperöd unfortunately "claims ownerships" of this article since until my latest edits he was the main contributor of the article] and now he does not wish to see any changes that are not in line with his view on the subject.--Jacurek (talk) 14:57, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Please also note that user Skäpperöd was placed on sanctions himself] after filing similar unfounded complaints against other Polish editors in the past (note Mattheads comments supporting Skäpperöd) and he was warned week later after filing ONCE AGAIN unfounded complaint here] The warning was very clear not to do that in the future:

This looks like a misuse of WP:AE in order to win the upper hand in a content dispute. The edits cited in the request are not objectionable; rather, they reflect routine disagreements about content. In particular, it is not disruptive to state one's opinion that "Removing a large chunk of text without discussing it first is generally seen as "disruptive"". Unless other administrators disagree, I will close this thread with a warning to Skäpperöd that AE is not a substitute for, or part of, proper dispute resolution, and that he may face sanctions if he files more unfounded enforcement requests. Sandstein 18:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC) I am in complete agreement with your reading of the situation Sandstein. Shell babelfish 11:53, 12 July 2009 (UTC) * No action. Skäpperöd is warned not to file more unfounded requests. Sandstein 16:30, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

More information can be found here]--Jacurek (talk) 15:09, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I also believe (but this is my personal opinion of course) that this new but very experienced user Varsovian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) whom user Skäpperöd welcomed here (Skäpperöd claims that Varsovian is unknown to him. See his statement.) is somehow connected to Skäpperöd. Yesterday user Varsovian left me this threatening note ...Say hello to a complete ban ... and today Skäpperöd files this complaint while Varsovian keeps quiet not even requesting his account to be unblocked]. I don't want to suggest socking at this point but somebody who knows more about socking etc. should perhaps look closer at this. Both editors edit from the same time zone etc., etc. but again I'm not an expert and these are just my thoughts.--Jacurek (talk) 18:45, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

UPDATE:

Here] as we speak user Skäpperöd just mass reverted most of my work back to his preferred version without any discussion whatsoever. He did not even wait for the resoults of this complaint. Is anybody still under illusion that all this is not about the content dispute? I don't. How log such behaviour can be tolerated?? --Jacurek (talk) 23:20, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I left this note on his talk page since my work was reverted. It was rude I feel totally disrespected.--Jacurek (talk) 23:46, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Re:Matthead (comment that was deleted by him]?!?)

• Rich history of conflicts even with administrators] and very impressive block log of user Matthead (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) or what is happening as we speak] makes such an attack very easy to rebuff, however I'm choosing not to comment on Mattheads comment since it is irrelevant to this particular case. However since user Matthead already arrived here I would like to point out that he also comes to mind of many]]] as a possible owner/cooperator of the new strange account of user Varsovian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log).--Jacurek (talk) 05:04, 25 October 2009 (UTC

Comments by other editors

• As a heads up: I will be looking into the evidence cited in this complaint at some point tomorrow. I will at that point indicate whether I think the conduct of any editor involved in the situation warrants sanctioning. Other administrators are welcome to duplicate my efforts and draw their own conclusions. AGK 23:37, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

AGK, please remember that this complaint is about Jacurek/Skäpperöd and not about user Varsovian and if he is a sock puppet of Matthead or not. I'm just afraid that reviewing administrators may focus now on Matthead/Varsovian which is a completely different issue dealt with here]. Thanks--Jacurek (talk) 17:55, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Upon reflection, I would prefer to not involve myself in this particular enforcement thread. AGK 21:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Totally understand. Regards--Jacurek (talk) 22:43, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Comments by Loosmark

Regarding the diffs Skapperod presents above, most of them are perfectly valid and represent a step towards improving the NPOV of article. The very few that can be seen as problematic, Skapperod could and should have discussed on the talk page. There are of course the usual steps for content disputes resolution such as third opinion and request for comment and mediation, none of which were tried by Skaperrod. IMO he should be adviced to stop using this board for winning content disputes, it's really growing old. Loosmark (talk) 10:48, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

The "another user" which left a note on Skapperod's talk page is non other than Varsovian, an account created with the sole purpose of provoking Polish editors. For now I will only note that the welcome message to Varsovian's entrace to wikipedia was given to Varsovian by Skapperod as can be seen on top of his talk page and that Varsovian, the "new user" as he claims, was aware of the existance of Scurinae who is long time buddy of Skapperod with whom they wrote complains against Polish editors in past. Loosmark (talk) 11:17, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Re:Skapperod If a sentence is sourced it doesn't neccesarily mean that it should be in the article as the article needs balance and plus have to give proper weight to things. The problem is you didn't even attempt to discuss things with Jacurek on the article's talk page before comming here. Loosmark (talk) 12:04, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Comments by Radeksz

Please note the related discussion her . This isn't "no sources" vs. "sources" as Skapperod tries to portray it. Rather the sources themselves are in question as non-RS.radek (talk) 17:10, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Comments by Molobo

(contribution removed by clerk)

Clerk note - I inappropriately gave permission to Molobo to post here. I had assumed his enquiry was about whether or not duplicating material from the EEML case was acceptable, and at the time completely failed to remember that Molobo was operating under an editing restriction. (In hindsight his enquiry makes sense now). I have contacted Arbcom for their opinion and they may reinstate Molobo's material at their discretion. Molobo will not be penalised for this breach of his editing restriction as he acted in good faith. Manning (talk) 00:38, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Comments by HerkusMonte

The (main) problem here is not wether Jacurek's edits did improve the article or not. The main problem is that topic-banned User:xx236 made a rather cryptic statement at the WikiProject Poland and within 2 (!) minutes User:Loosmark started to edit an article he has never edited before. User:Jacurek appeared after another 90 minutes and made dozens of changes like replacing a perfectly working link to the Oder river with a link to a disambiguation page Odra. This might be a remarkable coincidence or the attempt to bypass a topic ban. HerkusMonte (talk) 18:31, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I have not exactly edited the article in the sense of content, I have only removed that abominably huge template "history of Pomerania" which Skaperod made and which he keeps sticking to articles. I did note the article after xx236 posted it on Project Poland however his statement is cryptic for me too, I don't understand what he meant and I don't care either. But since we talk about coincidences, amazingly after I removed the template within a couple of minutes an anon IP came to my talk page saying he reverted me. Since unregistered users don't have a watchlist, that was a bit interesting, but I don't really care about that. Loosmark (talk) 18:48, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I did not understand either what he meant] and I saw that post this morning actually, not yesterday, therefore this is totally unrelated. The reason he posted this] on my talk page was in response to the e-mail I have sent him reminding him of the topic ban. (Can you confirm that User:xx236 if you read this? Maybe you kept a copy of the warning e-mail I have sent you?) I thought that he is banned from all EE related topics not just German related and xx236 was commenting on the Jedwabne Pogrom I thought he not suppose to do.--Jacurek (talk) 19:17, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

And by the way HerkusMonte, these are not the main problems what have you pointed out. The main problem is that Skäpperöd have filed unfounded complaint once again after specific warning not to do that (..Skäpperöd is warned not to file more unfounded requests... Sandstein 16:30, 12 July 2009 (UTC) I understand that as a German editor you may defend him but please be honest about it and do not use attack as a defence tool. Thanks --Jacurek (talk) 19:26, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Comments by Matthead

Jacurek is not a problem free editor, having been blocked several times for several months for proven sockpuppeteering (Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Jacurek). He has recently wikistalked me, reverting me several times, also at articles he had never edited before, for example an university, this biography of a German, or that biography of a Polish historian, who had stated in 1625 that the German astronomer Regiomontanus was a fellow countryman of Copernicus, thus proclaiming Copernicus a German astronomer, while more recent Poles try to portray him as Polish. As these words did not suit Jacurek's Polish POV, he removed them a second time. I don't even mention Jacurek's edit warring at the astronomer's bio and its talk, but have to point out that he followed me to the article West Germany, which he had never edited before reverting me, and reverting two more times before the article got editprotected. When I asked two editors, who also participated in the edit war without having edited the article before, it was Jacurek who showed up at their talk pages , creating more battlegrounds. By two admins, Jacurek was warned , and stated he thinks he will stick to voluntary 1RR. While he had 3 reverts, compared to two of mine, with a misinformation about 1RR issued to at least two admins , Jacurek even managed to get me blocked based on a mistaken assumption by Rjanag (who is currently subject to Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration#Rjanag), according to the statement of the admin who unblocked me. It was also stated that Jacurek would have had deserved a block more, and that he was evidently hounding Matthead and wanted to get him blocked. -- Matthead  Discuß   01:30, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Deleted misplaced statement by Jacurek which violated the advise given at the top of this page. -- Matthead  Discuß   15:47, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

It was not my statement Matthead, it was my response to you and I'm quite sure that you should not have just delete it. Well.. this is how you quite often behave unfortunately. P.S. I restored what you have deleted here.--Jacurek (talk) 17:45, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Gee, Jacurek, can't you read what is written on the top of the edit window, marked in red? "Advice for editing Misplaced Pages:Requests for Arbitration 1. Comment only in your own section please. If you wish to respond to a statement or remark by another editor, add to the bottom of your own section ...". Well, thank you for once again illustrating your ignorance even after you have been informed, your disrespect for advise and rules of Misplaced Pages, and your willingness to provoke others. -- Matthead  Discuß   18:03, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Comments by Varsovian

I fully support Jacurek's request for a socking expert to investigate my account. I have already said at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Matthead "I hereby state my support for each and every checkuser request made any time anybody accuses me of being a sock puppet, a meatpuppet, a banned user avoiding a ban, whatever." I apologise for not requesting my block be removed but it expired before I wanted to post (yesterday was spent watching football and the boxing, and drinking Krolewski and Perla): I will be appealing the block even though it has expired.

I was planning to forgive and forget but as Jacurek seems to wish to repeatedly drag my name into a dispute he has with another poster, perhaps somebody would like to check this edit of his ? He cut a 684 word article down to 81 words, removed all of the 638 words which I had written and removed all sixteen of the 28 sources which do not agree with his version of history (all but one of those 16 were inserted by me). I have requested that he moderate his behaviour towards me but he promptly followed me into No. 303 Polish Fighter Squadron: he had edited that article just once before, on 13 Feb 2009, but within one hour of me posting there he had reverted my edit. He had previously followed me into Anti-Polish sentiment and reverted my edit I can provide numerous examples of his incivil behaviour, assuming bad faith and repeated accusations against me if this would be an appropriate place for such. Please advise.Varsovian (talk) 14:18, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Jacurek: before you comment here about http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Matthead you may wish to note that both Matthead and I have agreed to the checkuser. You might also note that I have politely requested both there and on your talk page that you comment there about any other accounts which you think I might be a puppet of.

BTW: I believe from my reading of Matthead's comments he deleted you comment because it was in his section and not your own. I hope that clarifies the situation for you.Varsovian (talk) 17:43, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

If anybody reading this cares, even while this request is being discussed user Jacurek is behaving in precisely the way he thinks is "rude" and should not be tolerated (when others do it). Here he cut all of the 638 words which I had written and removed all sixteen of the 28 sources which do not agree with his version of history (all but one of those 16 were inserted by me). Here he does precisely the same thing again. It is becoming increasingly difficult to believe that such massive deletions of sources and text is good faith editing. I would also like it to be noted that 8 of the 12 sources he leaves () do not support his statement that almost all Poles were excluded: they all state that all Poles were excluded. I have repeatedly pointed out on the discussion page and in edit summaries that Jacurek is attributing information to sources which simply do not state what he claims but Jacurek continues to claim that they support his version of history.Varsovian (talk) 13:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Coments by Xx236

How many percent of all accusations in this Misplaced Pages comes from Skaperod? How many would be too much?Xx236 (talk) 11:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

As anyone can check Skaperod doesn't write the truth when writes: "Xx236 has dropped Jacurek a note similar to the WP:Poland note on 22 October ". The two notes are different. Is it standard here to write unfounded accusations and still be a respected editor? Xx236 (talk) 12:43, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Result concerning Jacurek

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Kurtilein

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Kurtilein

User requesting enforcement:
Cirt (talk) 13:41, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Kurtilein (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:
Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Scientology#Editors_instructed (Note that the prior Scientology case remedy, Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/COFS#Article_probation, may also be applicable here.)

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:

1. 23:12, 25 October 2009 - Kurtilein adds unsourced info to the article. I removed it, with an edit summary saying it is unsourced info.
2. 12:12, 26 October 2009 - Kurtilein adds the info back, claiming it is sourced to a primary source document - however I don't see how the text "Another passage that has been cited by critics of the organisation, especially in relation to cases of death where critics see connections to the organisation" is sourced to that document, and regardless the primary source document usage strays towards WP:NOR violation. I removed it a 2nd time, noting in the edit summary this specific portion that is definitely unsourced.
   • In a post to his user talk page, I asked Kurtilein for independent reliable secondary sources, and noted the WP:NOR issue: .
   • I then also specifically noted the portion of the text that he re-added that was wholly unsourced: .
3. 13:17, 26 October 2009 - Kurtilein adds the material back, again, this time with a disturbing edit summary: undo it again, and i will not come back and redo this edit... i will call others to this article to redo it. many others.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):
,

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
Block, at discretion of reviewing admin.

Additional comments by Cirt (talk):
It is unfortunate that unsourced material remains in the article - but I am taking a step back from the article in order for this evaluation here to proceed, and to avoid disruption at the article itself. As I am involved with cleanup at this article, and have contributed quality content on the topic, I will defer review and admin action to another administrator. Thank you for your time. Cirt (talk) 13:41, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested:
The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise.

(user notified) 13:42, 26 October 2009. Cirt (talk) 16:57, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Kurtilein

Statement by Kurtilein

The information i added to the article is NOT unsourced. I quoted from the document called "Keeping Scientology working", it is referenced. He reverted my edit repeatedly without giving any proper reasons to do so, and he reverted my edit while there would have been other options. he could have added one of those little "citation needed"-things if there really would be a citation missing. I consider it to be very rude when you just remove information that someone else added to the article, without having real reasons to do so, and without considering alternatives. Kurtilein (talk) 19:54, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Here is how i experienced it: I stubled upon the article, read it, and then i read the whole original document "keeping scientology working". There i discovered the quote, and a part of the quote, the sentence about "We'd rather have you dead than incapable" is well known and often cited by critics. Now people keep removing it when i try to add it, INSTEAD OF trying to add the missing citations, INSTEAD OF adding one of those little "citation needed"things, INSTEAD OF doing something else (i am sure there would be other options). The option that has been chosen was to remove the quote from public view, to destroy the work that i have done. And now i know about this quote, i know that it should be in the article, i know that it would be easy to find sources, i know that Scientology would love to NOT have this quote in the article. This is one of the biggest differences between Citizendium and Misplaced Pages: on citizendium, deleting something someone else has written is not allowed unless good reasons are given, and while i now agree that the sentence i added to the quote would need a "citation needed"-tag or that deleting it would be justified, i see no justification for deleting the quote itself. it is much more difficult to get your account blocked on citizendium than it is on wikipedia, but repeatedly deleting the contributions of others leads to a lifetime ban really quickly. Because actions like this make people that care about freedom of speech, like me, so angry that all rational arguments fail and that the presence of this quote in the article is now the only thing i care about. instead of working together to find a way to use this quote for the article and to expand the article, this has instantly turned into a fight, because deleting what someone else has written contains in itself a big and loud "fuck you" together with a silent "what you do is not welcome here", which can be heared and understood by people that hate censorship on the internet, like i do. Kurtilein (talk) 20:41, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I wrote the following for Jayen466, but while writing it it turned into another statement that i would like to add here:

THANKS!!! hooray :) your recent edit to Keeping Scientology Working is great. Now it looks like the disputed quote can stay in the article. Actually i learned a lot from this. After my edit got removed for the first time, i should have reintroduced the edit either with sources or with a "citation needed"-tag, should have opened a discussion on the articles talk page, and should have pointed out that nothing in wikipedias policies says that sources and citations cannot be added a few days later. Tagging apparently does the same job that deleting does in cases like this, except when the person that got his stuff deleted does not come back, or doesnt want to start an edit war, in that case deleting has the effect of censorship. I admit that i really am quite inexperienced on wikipedia. I still think that just deleting edits that could be turned into something useful is unnecessary because there are alternatives, and that it is rude because it is unnecessary and somehow still tied to censorship. Maybe i also overreacted, i could have reacted in a much better way, but if i would not have continued to fight the deletion of my edit then the quote might never have ended up in the article. For me, it was about content all along. I think i will also add this to my statement on the arbitration request for enforcement against me. I hope im not the only one that learned something from this, many people had to waste time because of this, and none of this would have happened if someone would have considered using of those little "citation needed"-tags at the right place and time. Kurtilein (talk) 00:15, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Comments by other editors

Comments by Jayen466

I have taken the unsourced material out; User:Kurtilein failed to note that he way he framed the quote was unsourced, and failed to understand it even when Cirt pointed it out to him. Suggest warning User:Kurtilein per Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Scientology#Discretionary_topic_ban, explaining the arbitration remedies to him, and placing a topic ban if there is a repeat. --JN466 18:07, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

, , , . --JN466 22:10, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I think this was a case of inexperience and excess enthusiasm, and Kurtilein seems to have recognised this now. --JN466 00:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Result concerning Kurtilein

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

{{subst:Arbitration enforcement request

| User against whom enforcement is requested = Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

| Sanction or remedy that this user violated = Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Discretionary sanctions

| Diffs of edits that violate it, and an explanation how they do so
Nableezy has been involved in a systematic and longstanding attempt to insert POV material into the lead of a controversial I-P article in a non-collaborative way and without consensus, and gaming the system.

Numerous archives speak specifically to the conflict and lack of consensus for this edit, and other archives to the issue of POV, as does the current Talk:Gaza War page, particularly here and more than that to the lead itself. These earlier archives show that no consensus has been achieved for this edit.

The following reverts are to his preferred version and were made in the last four weeks. The article was edit-protected ,
and the last four reverts made after edit protection was removed. (with partial edit summaries)

1. "you need to show consensus has changed, no consensus for removal of long standing text" 9/26
2. "no consensus" 9/27
3. "rvt using popups" 9/28
4. other editor's beliefs "don't matter" 9/28
5. "consensus" 9/29
6. "amply sourced" 10/3
7. adds dubious source claiming "this should end this" 10/4
8. rvtd compromise solution with "nonsense, the text is directly supported by the citations" 10/6
9. "move up, bold and capitalize per source" (reverted to the most contentious edit despite continuing argument WP policy re lede, re consensus, re Reliability) 10/15
10. "removal of reliably cited and there is no consensus to completely remove gaza massacre" 10/15
11. "no consensus" (for removal) 10/15
12. "verifiable statement reliably sourced with no consensus for removal" 10/20

Here is a second set of diffs over a longer period of time for same article demonstrating POV or Battlefield mentality:

1. maybe the Truth is antisemitic
2. Believes Hamas over Israel
3. Hamas has a 'legal right to resist occupation
4. The idea that Israel wants peace is proved incorrect
5. "Because somebody is worried that international press will become pro-gazan upon seeing civilians rotting in the street is reason to endorse censorship?"
6. After reverting to his preferred version, says "This was simple vandalism, and thus reverted. You changed well sourced information and added things to change the balance so that the Israeli side is represented in a disproportional manner."

Disparaging comments (violating WP:NPA) to other users' arguments in relation to this edit.

1. Other editors refuse to acknowledge simple facts, editors who challenge are "disruptive."
2. Doesn't matter what a fellow editor thinks
3. Caps are irrelevant in Arabic
4. "Beyond ridiculous"
5. "Bullshit" argument
6. Controversy is "Bullshit argument" & attempt to WP:CENSOR despite most of the editors' agreement that the material does belong in the article, just not in the lead
7. "moronic"

Links suggesting that Nableezy is gaming the system by bringing others up for charges,

1. - Wikifan12345
2. - NoCal100
3. - Boatduty177177
4. - RichPoynder
5. - AgadaUrbanit
6. -Rm125
7. asking me to self -revert so that he will not violate 3RR]
8. clearly demonstrating he understands the system and warning against adding material against consensus
9. "discussed does not mean agreed. You need to stop warring in material over the objections of others." This is a direct warning to another user for the very same thing he is doing here.
10. An editor has put forth an ArbCon request on behalf of Nableezy for sanctions on User:Cptnono one of the editors directly involved in this dispute- one who has not edit-warred the article. 10/10
11. Though filed by another editor, Nableezy is also the principal in this ArbCon request re editwarring as well, for a different article. () 10/11

| Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy)

1. I warned (or at least explained my concerns) response here
2. concerns also here; citing WP:CCC
3. Nja247 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) "Final warning" "Essentially at this point you should be using a personal 1RR rule except for blatant vandalism" 4/28
4. PhilKnight (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) warned of ArbCom sanctions 6/30
5. Recent edit warring report 10/6
6. warning by Tedder (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) 10/15
7. Block log

| Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

I am asking for a topic ban for some period of time. Considering that he has been warned a number of times in the past and has not seemed to be able to honor these warnings with the appropriate editing behaving, and considering that this behavior is tending to move further afield as is perhaps illustrated here: , to ignore it would give it permission to continue and thrive. Perhaps what troubles me most is the lack of respect I see for colleagues that take a different view from him. Some time off might allow Nableezy review his objectives here at WP. He is an intelligent and thoughtful editor in my view, and well liked on both sides of the aisle. I think he would be a great editor in areas that are not so personal for him.

I believe it necessary to send a clear message that this kind of behavior is unacceptable that it may discourage it in others as well, hopefully cutting down on reportage of incidents, and generally helping to foster a better WP editing environment in the sensitive area of I-P.

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