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The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Vandalism warning

Due to repeated vandalism of this article's info box by anonymous editors, I've added a warning in the article source:

"NOTE TO EDITORS: DO NOT MODIFY THE COUNTRY NAMES USED IN THE INFO BOX BELOW WITHOUT FIRST DISCUSSING YOUR CHANGES ON THE DISCUSSION PAGE. FAILURE TO DO SO WILL RESULT IN YOUR EDITING PRIVILEGES BEING BLOCKED IMMEDIATELY WITHOUT FURTHER WARNINGS."

The names used in the info box are as specified by Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countries. I don't think there's any valid reason to change them, and certainly not to nonsense like "Republic of Vardar" or "Republic of Skopje" as our vandals have been trying to do. Changes of that significance should discussed on the talk page anyway, considering how controversial the article is. From now on, further vandalism of this nature will attract an immediate block. -- ChrisO 09:41, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes!!!!

That is a censorship article.

Vergina 09:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

International recognition of ROM (FYROM) (change required)

The following factual correction is necessary; the correction is proposed on the fact that the term 'most' refers to over 50% and this UN member state has not been recognised by 'most' countries under its chosen constitutional name of ROM. Therefore: The text which reads: "International organisations and some countries still use that designation, abbreviated to FYROM, but most countries now recognise it under its official name". Needs to be corrected to: "International organisations and many countries still use that designation, abbreviated to FYROM, but a number of countries now recognise it under its official name"

The majority of countries--more than half--do use the official name. CDThieme 20:44, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

This is not correct: some countries in particilar : USA, Russia, China and Turkey use the unofficial name. what is official? official is something that is accepted by everybody. so you can compare the whole issue like branding-copyright. who had the name first. indisputable the greeks. so if greece allows the r.o.m. to use the name it is official! e.g. nike allows to a no-name manufactor to use its logo or name-can you imagine that? off course not. but in this case we are talking about a country´s name with people etc. it is a very delicate topic and understandable because of the very fragile situation in r.o.m. , many ethicities, albanians hoping for autonomy etc. so the use of the name macedonia makes a compromise for all ethnicities there, it has a glory history etc. but nobody of its inhabitants whether albanians, bulgarians, turks, romas etc. neither the slawo-macedonians can be connected with the macedonian civilisation or culture. therefor the use is illegal but understandable. the r.o.m. people should understand this, it is no provocation by the greeks for the individual person but the greeks feel theft about the use of the name. so greece has to decide in negotiations with the r.o.m. about solutions fot the future. in the past the area was called vardarska banovina. what is so wrong with this name? the river of vardar is located there- no greek would dispute this name. why provoking the greeks on purpose? remember that the glory history of greece showed that they never took wrong positions (e.g. II world war etc.) and this will show also in the future that greece has a reason to not accept this name. imagine a part of mexico will gain independancy and they proclaim the name republic of texas or republic of california(there is allready a part in mexico which uses the name california- but this is not a country only a state in mexico) Nestore 08:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Officiality of a nation's name is not a matter of how many bodies refer to it as a single name. It is a matter of what the nation itself calls itself in its constitution, and in Macedonia's case that is the Republic of Macedonia, and the officiality and validity of that name cannot be logically disputed.

In other articles official would be the name used by UNO, IMF, Hague etc. RoM is the country's constitutional name. +MATIA ☎ 11:53, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

"Republic of Macedonia" is a Pseudonym of the state!

Vergina 14:05, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Well,Chris,do u know anything about real valdalism and who is doing it?this article have changed many times...and everytime that the greek point of view was added,it was immediately changed and'protected'.i do not know why it is so hard for people in wikipedia to understand that the country's name is 'FYROM' at the moment!wheather u like it or not,this is the internationally recognised name... Furthermore,in the demographics section,there is neither official estimate for the greek minority,nor unofficial estimates for the vlach and greek minorities...whereas in the section of the demographics of greece there is an 'unofficial estimate' for supposedly 'macedonian' minority-an overestimation,i have to say.this happens also in the section about 'Macedonians'.everything that u claim as 'protected' is just anti-hellenic.i can't get it...it is simply not fair!anyways,i have been sick with all the word usage of the name Macedonia,from people who have not a single knowledge of history...if u had made a bit searching and studying in history facts,u would be the one who would change this article(or at least let the others to do so).at least be wise and allow the opinions of both sides(till the dispute is solved)...but i guess your pro-skopjian feelings will not allow u to do so... what can i say?just letting u make some company with your ahistorical and antiscientific thoughts... if i have misunderstoond u,i will take what i say back,but i guess i haven't...

Archives

Archive 1
Archive 2
Archive 3
Archive 4
Archive 5
Archive 6
Archive 7

ChrisO blocked me out from editting this site

because I'm Macedonian and he is pro-Greek. Fortunately he only blocked my friends' ip and not mine, I have dynamic. MACEDONIA IS SLAVIC AND ONE DAY ALL MACEDONIAN AREAS WILL BE LIBERATED Arnegjor2 19:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

And they blocked me again for being a Macedonian! Is this freedom of speech? Arnegjor3 19:34, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I can speak again, who knows for how long.. It seems that community based projects can lead to equal missuse of power from "regulators", reminds liberties in communist countries. Arnegjor 12:35, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

You seem to be doing arbitrary edits which are commonly considered vandalism on Misplaced Pages. Nobody is denying your freedom of speech, and stop making ridicilious accusations. This is an encyclopedia, not an internet forum where you can put anything you want, including capslocked claims such as the "liberated Macedonia" statement. "And they blocked me again for being a Macedonian!". No, they didn't do that, and you better get rid of that "poor little Macedonian" victim mentality, as soon as possible. I'm a Macedonian myself, and nobody blocked me so far. As a Wikipedian, and as a Macedonian, my advice is - read Misplaced Pages policies well, articulate your views, and participate into discussion with sources, be tolerant to others (even if they have different points of view), and do not make personal attacks. I hope you'll accept my advice. Best regards. --FlavrSavr 14:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

NO you can't be Macedonian and talking about "poor little Macedonians". I'm sorry for my capslocked claims which were under my anger, but I find your "stop making ridicilious accusations."

a personal attack against me, why nobody sends you a warning about that? Is that because you want Macedonians to have a fake and "calmed down" perspective of our recognision problems and I fall out of this standards? Am I doing bad for our country just because I'm honest and so have to be kicked out of wikipedia? Is this the purpose of wikipedia? Arnegjor 14:29, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

If you think that I have made a personal attack against you, you can report me here. I can assure you, that I have made spent hours and days proving and arguing in defense of some Macedonian positions. My reaction to the English Misplaced Pages admins which was written in protest why it had referred to our nation as "Macedonian Slavs", lead to a series of actions, that, although after a long period, finally resulted in the change of naming - now we are referred to as Macedonians. ChrisO also played a significant role in this change - so accusing him of being pro-Greek is the accusation that I consider ridicilous. He is the most neutral editor I have encountered here, and he is has the courage to engage in sensitive issues, just for the sake of Misplaced Pages's neutrality.--FlavrSavr 14:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I also must inform you, that I'm an administrator of the Macedonian Misplaced Pages, and I am one of the biggest contributors there - I have translated much of the interface in Macedonian, I have created hundreds of articles, I have made efforts in promoting it etc. Now, I hope "NO you can't be Macedonian" sounds as a unfounded accusation, as well.--FlavrSavr 14:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

As for what Misplaced Pages stands for, you should read the NPOV policy. In this case, I'm acting in good faith - but, I leave it to you to choose whether you'll accept my advice or consider me a traitor (or whatever). --FlavrSavr 14:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Poorest republic?

MACEDONIA IS NOT GREEK AND NOR SLAVIC!

ITS BULGARIAN! CHECK: http://www.macedoniainfo.com/10_Lies_Macedonism.htm

And you check this: http://www.makedonika.org/Bojdimi1.htm Who are you? don't you have a nickname? Arne

According to the CIA World Factbook, Macedonia was the poorest republic of Yugoslavia; Bosnia was the next poorest:

"At independence in September 1991, Macedonia was the least developed of the Yugoslav republics, producing a mere 5% of the total federal output of goods and services"

"Bosnia and Herzegovina ranked next to Macedonia as the poorest republic in the old Yugoslav federation."

-- ChrisO 11:28, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I think we should make difference between least developed and poorest. Macedonia was Yugoslavia's 3rd producer of food (after Serbia and Croatia) and the 2nd most developed agriculture area. Anyway, it is a fact that our indurstry was poorer than the one of most of the other republics.

I also completely disagree with ranking Bosnia as 2nd poorest. Bosnia had quite good industry.

On the other hand, Montenegro had very little industry.

Anyway, it is not so important will Macedonia be ranked as poorest or 2nd poorest in ex-Yugoslavia. It is much better to be poorest in quite well developed country than richest in a quite poor region.

What I am saying is that the economy of Macedonia in that time was much better than now. People had jobs, good payments... they lived good life. Since than, it only got worse.

That is our real problem, not something that was 15 years ago. Macedonian 00:24, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, if you consider the period Macedonia was in before Yugoslavia (a very hard one, with struggles who to take it first etc.), yes, it was one of the poorest. But, I don't know about Bosnia and Herzegovina. Although, I think that this is irrelevant according this article. Regards. Bomac 13:13, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

As the Factbook tends to make mistakes, let's not overtrust ourselves to it. But let's look at some other sources: A Macedonian one (Macnews), MSN Encarta (least developed economically), the UN, etc. I know User:Macedonian tends to see things the way he wants to but that conduct is counterproductive as far as I am concerned. VMORO 13:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

The first link is not OK. Please fix it, so we can see what is it about.

About the MSN Encarta link... it clearly says: "Of the six republics of the former Yugoslavia, Macedonia was one of the least developed economically". So, one of the least developed. Not the least developed. Actually, with that link you proove my point, not yours.

About the 3rd link, the UN... yes, it says poorest... but it does not talk about the period of time. In my oppinion, there are bigger chanses Macedonia to be the poorest of all 6 ex-Yu republics nowdays than 15 years ago. Actually, untill 1994th, Macedonia was handling quite well. Macedonian 00:24, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

If you search the press of Greece and RoM during the last years, you 'll find that about 800,000 people in RoM (35%?) live below the "poverty level" and almost 2,000,000 people in Greece (18%?) the same. I'm sorry but I don't remember if the sources for the statistics were related with each local goverment's census or not, but a search of recent (2-3 years) newspapers will probably verify the above. +MATIA ☎ 17:41, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the 35% estimate. I think that is also close to the rate of unemployment nowdays in Republic of Macedonia. Macedonian 00:24, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

FYROM is Republic of Bulgaristan !Not "Macedonia"

1911:Population by Vilayet Thessaloniki(Selanik) Muslim :605.000,Greek:398.000,Bulgarian:271.000

1911:Population by Vilayet Monastir(Bitola) Muslim:456.000,Greek:350.000,Bulgarian:246.000

1911:Population by Vilayet Kosovo(capital city Uskub) Muslim:959.000, Greek: 93.000,Bulgarian:531.000

http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg

According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904: VILAYET OF THESSALONIKI: GREEKS :373.227 BULGARIANS:207.317

VILAYET OF MONASTIR(Bitola): GREEKS :373.261.283 BULGARIANS:178.412

SANTZAK OF USKUB (Skopje) GREEKS  : 13.452 BULGARIANS:172.735

Rival statistical data

Sample statistical data from neutral sources

http://en.wikipedia.org/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia

• Fotos Monastir or Bitola 1941:

See German and Bulgarian Flags!!! http://makedonija.150m.com/makedonija/bulgarianfascisticoccupiermacedonian.htm

Where are the People of FYROM as Macedonians??

Vergina 23:24, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry Vergina, but Republic of Macedonia nowadays is a pure f.a.c.t. Cheers, Vergina, writing from the R. of Macedonia, yours, Bomac 00:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Will some of the administrators react on this kind of nationalistic topic? How long will people like this be allowed to terrorise Misplaced Pages? Macedonian 01:58, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Calm down - Vergina is our resident crank, but he's pretty harmless. At least he's not vandalising the article... -- ChrisO 09:07, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Vergina, if you have any sence of analitics, you would clearly see that all the censuses from that period are trying to proove the Bulgarian, Serb or Greek character of the region. Therefore, the Macedonians living in the region were presented as Bulgarian, Serb or Greek, depending on the source of the census.

Using the bad situation of the Macedonians, who were still under the Ottoman rule, the neighbouring nations were addopting the number of Macedonians and adding it to their number, so they would "proove" their ownership of the region. Anyway, Ilinded and latter the WW2 prooved how wrong they were. Macedonian 01:56, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism warning

Due to repeated vandalism of this article's info box by anonymous editors, I've added a warning in the article source:

"NOTE TO EDITORS: DO NOT MODIFY THE COUNTRY NAMES USED IN THE INFO BOX BELOW WITHOUT FIRST DISCUSSING YOUR CHANGES ON THE DISCUSSION PAGE. FAILURE TO DO SO WILL RESULT IN YOUR EDITING PRIVILEGES BEING BLOCKED IMMEDIATELY WITHOUT FURTHER WARNINGS."

The names used in the info box are as specified by Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countries. I don't think there's any valid reason to change them, and certainly not to nonsense like "Republic of Vardar" or "Republic of Skopje" as our vandals have been trying to do. Changes of that significance should discussed on the talk page anyway, considering how controversial the article is. From now on, further vandalism of this nature will attract an immediate block. -- ChrisO 09:41, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes!!!!

That is a censorship article.

Vergina 09:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

International recognition of ROM (FYROM) (change required)

The following factual correction is necessary; the correction is proposed on the fact that the term 'most' refers to over 50% and this UN member state has not been recognised by 'most' countries under its chosen constitutional name of ROM. Therefore: The text which reads: "International organisations and some countries still use that designation, abbreviated to FYROM, but most countries now recognise it under its official name". Needs to be corrected to: "International organisations and many countries still use that designation, abbreviated to FYROM, but a number of countries now recognise it under its official name"

The majority of countries--more than half--do use the official name. CDThieme 20:44, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

This is not correct: some countries in particilar : USA, Russia, China and Turkey use the unofficial name. what is official? official is something that is accepted by everybody. so you can compare the whole issue like branding-copyright. who had the name first. indisputable the greeks. so if greece allows the r.o.m. to use the name it is official! e.g. nike allows to a no-name manufactor to use its logo or name-can you imagine that? off course not. but in this case we are talking about a country´s name with people etc. it is a very delicate topic and understandable because of the very fragile situation in r.o.m. , many ethicities, albanians hoping for autonomy etc. so the use of the name macedonia makes a compromise for all ethnicities there, it has a glory history etc. but nobody of its inhabitants whether albanians, bulgarians, turks, romas etc. neither the slawo-macedonians can be connected with the macedonian civilisation or culture. therefor the use is illegal but understandable. the r.o.m. people should understand this, it is no provocation by the greeks for the individual person but the greeks feel theft about the use of the name. so greece has to decide in negotiations with the r.o.m. about solutions fot the future. in the past the area was called vardarska banovina. what is so wrong with this name? the river of vardar is located there- no greek would dispute this name. why provoking the greeks on purpose? remember that the glory history of greece showed that they never took wrong positions (e.g. II world war etc.) and this will show also in the future that greece has a reason to not accept this name. imagine a part of mexico will gain independancy and they proclaim the name republic of texas or republic of california(there is allready a part in mexico which uses the name california- but this is not a country only a state in mexico) Nestore 08:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Officiality of a nation's name is not a matter of how many bodies refer to it as a single name. It is a matter of what the nation itself calls itself in its constitution, and in Macedonia's case that is the Republic of Macedonia, and the officiality and validity of that name cannot be logically disputed.

In other articles official would be the name used by UNO, IMF, Hague etc. RoM is the country's constitutional name. +MATIA ☎ 11:53, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

"Republic of Macedonia" is a Pseudonym of the state!

Vergina 14:05, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Well,Chris,do u know anything about real valdalism and who is doing it?this article have changed many times...and everytime that the greek point of view was added,it was immediately changed and'protected'.i do not know why it is so hard for people in wikipedia to understand that the country's name is 'FYROM' at the moment!wheather u like it or not,this is the internationally recognised name... Furthermore,in the demographics section,there is neither official estimate for the greek minority,nor unofficial estimates for the vlach and greek minorities...whereas in the section of the demographics of greece there is an 'unofficial estimate' for supposedly 'macedonian' minority-an overestimation,i have to say.this happens also in the section about 'Macedonians'.everything that u claim as 'protected' is just anti-hellenic.i can't get it...it is simply not fair!anyways,i have been sick with all the word usage of the name Macedonia,from people who have not a single knowledge of history...if u had made a bit searching and studying in history facts,u would be the one who would change this article(or at least let the others to do so).at least be wise and allow the opinions of both sides(till the dispute is solved)...but i guess your pro-skopjian feelings will not allow u to do so... what can i say?just letting u make some company with your ahistorical and antiscientific thoughts... if i have misunderstoond u,i will take what i say back,but i guess i haven't...

Provisional UN Name, "was" vs "is"

I made an edit to the first paragraph of the article while I wasn't logged in(IP:220.245.178.137) in which I changed the wording to make note of the fact that the name used by international oranisations such as the UN is being used provisionally ie. temporary until the dispute is resolved. It was edited by Macedonian citing propaganda, and I assume he feels it was POV in some way, which I see as unlikely as I am a Macedonian, and I hope growing up in Australia means I am relatively NPOV. Either way, RoM is in fact referred to by the UN as FYROM provisionally, in fact I believe the declaration welcoming RoM into the UN even states that.

Also something that has been edited two times recently is the word 'was' in the following sentence:

"Due to the naming dispute between the Government of the Republic and the Government of Greece (one of Greece's northern regions is also called Macedonia), the country was referred to as the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia in its admission to the United Nations."

My edit changed the 'was' to 'is', which is factually correct as far as I can tell, seeing as Macedonia is still referred to by international organisations as FYROM.

I wouldn't mind some feedback here before I change this again, so that it isn't edited more times. --Gorast 05:47, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that I might have reverted that as ungrammatical; the country's admittance to the UN is in the past. Jkelly 05:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

In hindsight it is actually grammaticaly correct. Scrap that bit then, I guess all that's left is to see whether my other edit was NPOV, which, in another bout of hindsight, probably should be on Macedonian's talk page.*embarassed* Gorast 06:37, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I would agree that the "was" should be "is" as ut is misleading. was meansn that the U.N. don't refer to Macedonia as F.Y.R.O.M but as something else that is not stated here, so... R.O.M. Sorry for changing before I see this discussion. Steve

The editors who are in favour of "was" instead of "is" are aware of an international treaty about the name dispute between RoM and Greece? I am not. +MATIA ☎ 17:16, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

The admission to the U.N. is an event which occured in the past. Hence "was" is the correct verb; "is" is simply not ideomatic and sounds very odd in the context of that sentence to this native speaker of English. The article has info later about the continuing dispute where the present tense is used, so there is no need to stand gramatical use on its head in this sentence. Jonathunder 17:41, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

It still looks (to this en:2 editor) like a dejavu of the UN-is-not-official edit-war (or content dispute if you prefer) that took place two months ago. +MATIA ☎ 17:55, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Sigh. This is so petty. I've rewritten that sentence to take out was/is altogether. -- ChrisO 19:48, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Page protected from moves

I've protected the article from moves following the latest outbreak of anonymous vandalism (the vandal has been blocked, btw). -- ChrisO 08:43, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Constitutional name / official name

Matia's wording is more accurate - countries "now recognise it under its constitutional name for bilateral diplomatic relations" rather than "now recognise it under its official name". FYROM is an official name too; it's mostly used in multilateral contexts, where Greek delegations need to be kept happy, rather than bilateral relations, where they don't. -- ChrisO 00:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Keep the Greeks happy? They have a name of their country that no-one denies. R.o. Macedonia name is disputed by Greece. What about the Macedonians? They are surely not happy when someone is putting-on the ethiquette "FYROM" as a name of the country. Bomac 12:31, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Boyan, ChrisO is representing a real situation in international law. And unfortunately, international law is pretty much real politik - which means that if Greeks are more powerful and/or have more powerful allies than Macedonians they have the greater right to be feel happy. I'm satisfied with the current state of the opening paragraph, and I don't see any problems in it. The official name of the agreement with Greece, includes the FYROM designation. Our politicians signed that agreement. Me and you, may not like that, but that won't change the fact. --FlavrSavr 21:34, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you very much. +MATIA ☎ 00:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

"FYROM" isn't a name at all. It is a way of avoiding the name. Most countries recognize the obvious. CDThieme 00:22, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Of course it's a name. There's nothing in international law that says that a country may only be recognised by its constitutional name. The UN could recognise Greece as the "former Ottoman Province of Hellas" if it really wanted to. Reality isn't necessarily a factor in international politics. Don't forget that for decades the UN recognised a small island in the South China Sea as "China" and ignored the existence of a much bigger state next door... -- ChrisO 00:39, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

And will you tell me what if it ISN'T WANTED TO?!? Bomac 12:31, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

No need for emotions here. Chris, it is true that nothing specific in international law says that a country may only be recognised by its constitutional name, but, there are related principles that can apply here (self-determination, etc.). Boyan, Chris does not necessarily agree with the ways of international law. Keep in mind that we are primarily here to discuss topics in light of their relevance to the article, and not to solve real world issues. --FlavrSavr 21:34, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Read the actual resolution that admitted the country. It goes to great pains to avoid naming it. It obliquely calls it the country in the application, which is being referred to as "the former..." CDThieme 00:44, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Is this obvious? +MATIA ☎ 00:29, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

FYROM and Britannica

User:Miskin wants to replace this:

Due to a dispute between the governments of the Republic of Macedonia and Greece, the United Nations recognized the country as the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) when it became a member state in 1993.

with this, based on a Britannica entry:

In deference to Greece, which has an area traditionally known as Macedonia, the country adopted as its formal title "The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and normalized relations with Greece in 1995.

This just goes to show that you shouldn't blindly trust Britannica - it's wrong. The FYROM name was adopted by the UN General Assembly, not by the Republic of Macedonia. See UN General Assembly Resolution A/RES/47/225 of 8 April 1993, which is where the name comes from. As I understand it, the FYROM name is always used by foreigners to refer to the RoM, not by the RoM to refer to itself. Perhaps our Macedonian friends can confirm my understanding of this? -- ChrisO 18:31, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

The Britannica article means that the Macedonian Slavs accepted it and eventually signed the papers to accept its official use. It doesn't imply that they suggested it nor that they ever supported it. Miskin 18:50, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Britannica also says this. Rex 18:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

The Albanians shouldn't be talking here, thats between Macedonians and Greeks. Arne

When you say Macedonians, do you mean the Slavs? I'm Macedonian and I'm neither Slav or Greek! Svetlyo 01:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)Svetlyo

Yeah, aaaand...? Miskin 18:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that your wording is very misleading. You say that "the country adopted as its formal title..." Not so; its formal title is its constitutional name. The FYROM name is, as you know very well, only used in international and some bilateral settings. The RoM applied for recognition by the UN, which Greece objected to because of the name; the UN brokered a compromise (the FYROM name) which the RoM and Greece both reluctantly accepted. From what I recall, a lot of pressure was put on the Greek government at that time, as a lot of Greek politicians opposed any form of words that included the word "Macedonia". The RoM government didn't like the name but consented to it because it wanted recognition; the Greek government didn't like it either but also agreed to it, after coming under a lot of pressure from other EU and NATO states as well as the US. Your suggested version makes it sound like the RoM volunteered to be called FYROM in all settings, which clearly wasn't the case. -- ChrisO 19:22, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

ChrisO, you are quite right that it was imposed on Republic of Macedonia for sure. Furthermore, the Macedonian government does not sign any document that refers to the country as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". The usual way of dealing with UN and its agencies is to sign two different copies of the document. The difference is in one thing - the usage of our constitutional name or UN provisional reference. Both sides sign its own copy of the document, exchange copies and shake hands. Regarding the foreigners, I might say that only Italians and Greeks in EU institutions use "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". Even Tony Blair announced that "We hope to see a Europe reunited in all its aspects. Obviously, Macedonia is an important part of that vision,". Kirev 00:07, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I was trying to suggest a head which came from a neutral source, but I don't insist on it. The "yeah, and" was referring to REX's bizarre remark. Miskin 19:29, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Macedonia and Bulgaria

I suggest that Bulgarians should stop editting Macedonian sites as YOU ARE NOT MACEDONIANS! - Arne

Macedonia is Bulgarian and the proof is that what you want to call "Macedonian" language derives from the Bulgarian Language, Both Greeks and Slavs rewrite the HISTORY, check this : http://www.macedoniainfo.com/10_Lies_Macedonism.htm Svetlyo 01:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

YOU READ THIS PAGE, ITS FROM CANADIAN SOURCES http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/macedonia/stefov1.html -Arne

EU name of FYROM is not "Republic of Macedonia"

• EU name of FYROM is not "Republic of Macedonia"

Vergina 17:40, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh yes it is. It's not "RoM" only when are discussed billateral issues between Macedonia and Greece. Bomac 18:52, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT RESOLUTION ON WESTERN BALKANS At the same time, it voted down the amendments urging the Council to recognize FYROM under its constitutional name (139 in favor, 398 against and 26 abstentions). http://www.mpa.gr/article.html?doc_id=522728

Government: conventional long form: Republic of Macedonia conventional short form: Macedonia; note - the provisional designation used by the UN, EU, and NATO is Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) local long form: Republika Makedonija local short form: Makedonija former: People's Republic of Macedonia, Socialist Republic of Macedonia http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mk.html

Vergina 19:27, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Can either of you provide some evidence? Izehar (talk) 18:54, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Bomac, I'm afraid you're wrong. Officially, (in international documents) the EU refers to our country as FYROM, although, unofficially, they use the plain name Macedonia. I don't know how Tony Blair's statement would be classified - he was the first at the summit to confirm the Macedonian EU candidacy and he used the term Macedonia. --FlavrSavr 19:34, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

On the other hand, according to this policy Misplaced Pages should refer to this country as Republic of Macedonia. --FlavrSavr 19:34, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

My proposal for this sentence is to avoid both terms, by adding "the country". We needn't get into banal disputes. --FlavrSavr 19:34, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with FlavrSavr. Sorry, but from this endless dispute and POV pushings, all the good ideas are spinning around like the Earth round the Sun... Bomac 19:38, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

"Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is member of United Nations and Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe . Vergina 19:59, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Incorrect. The country is simply referred to as FYROM for the duration of the dispute between it and Greece. The UN and other nations have never stated that FYROM is the name of the country, just a provisional name, ie. temporary.--Gorast 13:02, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I made a small change. +MATIA ☎ 21:01, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

That is a damn fine small change.  :) --FlavrSavr 15:31, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that MATIA neutralised the article, so there is no need of the POV-tag. Bomac 19:00, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Change of FYROM to "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"

To keep the record straight - UN does not refer to Macedonia as FYROM but only as "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". Both long and short names in use in UN are the same - "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". Check these links:

UN site search for "former yugoslav republic of macedonia" - 17500 results and UN site search for FYROM - 606 results

I consider that usage of FYROM is just an error - Macedonia and Greece agreed on use of "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" not FYROM. Also, ISO defines this ISO 3166-1 record:

"Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of (MK, MKD, 807)"

We can see this at UN member states

By resolution A/RES/47/225 of 8 April 1993, the General Assembly decided to admit as a Member of the United Nations the State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" pending settlement of the difference that had arisen over its name.

Considering the fact that more than 100 countries and 3 permenent members (out of 5) comprising more than 90% of Earth population recognize Macedonia under its constitutional name I suggest that we directly omit using "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" at all, but only the constitutional name. As Misplaced Pages does for every other country in the world.

Not an option. Other countries do not have disputes over their name. This one does. And no they don't recognise it under "its constitutional name" - FYROM is not its constitutional name. They specifically refuse to recognise it under its constitutional name. FYROM is an interim name used for it in all cases at the UN.

PS: stop being pedantic about FYROM. That is an acronym of the full name, used to avoid using the full length name all the time. Ditto with UK for United Kingdom. (and please sign your name)FearÉIREANN\ 00:36, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

What about Republic of Ireland and United Kingdom? Is it Éire, Ireland, or ROI? If you are so pedantic, you should just use "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and not FYROM. If you like acronyms, use ISO country codes - MK and MKD. FYROM is not an option - it has not been agreed with Greece and it is highly offensive. Somehow, if you check the paragraph about international relations, you would understand that, yes - the Greek friends on this matter are getting close to zero as time passes by... Kirev 01:04, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

There is no dispute about when to use RoI and Ireland, and clear rules about when not to use Éire. There is no comparison with the FYROM dispute. FearÉIREANN\ 01:08, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I found the reference. This is the document that you should find to see that there's no short form in the UN:

TITLE: Country Names
SERIES: Terminology Bulletin
No.: No.347/REV.1
LANGUAGE: M.
SALES #: 97.I.19
ISBN: 9210020685
SYMBOL: ST/CS/SER.F/347/REV.1/CORR.1
PAGES: 84pp.
PRICE: $20.00
DESCRIPTION: Compendium of country names in Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish listed in English alphabetical order. It includes names of the United Nations Member States and members of specialized agencies such as the International Court of Justice.

Therefore, I will remove all occurences of FYROM from the article.

Kirev 01:16, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

What is FYROM?

This is a country which was a part of Jugoslavia,where a lot of people are Albanians,where they speak a bulgarian dialekt,and they want to have a greek name(makos in ancient greek means tall).user talk:makedonas--Makedonas 12:12, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Reasons why Greece is acting like this

One of the main rights of humans, as well as countries is the right to freely choose its name. One of the biggest insults for me is when somebody is trying to change the name of another one. This time I will not respond to the insults posted by User:Makedonas, User:Nestore and User:Vergina because the language they are using is unacceptable for a serious site like Misplaced Pages (Just to quote the last comment by User:Makedonas: This is a country which was a part of Jugoslavia,where a lot of people are Albanians,where they speak a bulgarian dialekt,and they want to have a greek name)!!!???. For me it is very difficult to understand the offensive position of Greeks trying to change the name of its neighboring country, so I will try to dig in the history and in the recent events in order to find an answer why Greece is doing this.

• History: Undisputable fact is that modern Greeks have very little common with the ancient Macedonians, even with the ancient Greeks! Actually, all modern nations living in the Balkan Peninsula are modern nations created with mixing the old nations like ancient Greeks, ancient Macedonians, Ilirs etc with the modern Greeks, Slavic population etc. For example, the most dominant opinion in our country is that the modern Macedonian nation is created as mixture of ancient Macedonians and Slavic population. Probably the Modern Greek nation has origin from the ancient Greeks and ancient Macedonians, but that doesn’t give him a right to claim ownership of the name Macedonia.
• Another interesting fact is that the name Macedonia was virtually forbidden for use in Greece before seventies in the last century. Actually, the northern part of Greece was called “Northern Greece”. Meantime, Greeks realized that they can benefit more if they adopt the name of Macedonia. Starting from that point, the northern part of Greece was renamed to Macedonia and many shops, airports, streets etc got the Macedonian name. So, Greece is using the name Macedonia for its northern part for 30 years, but Republic of Macedonia is using its name officially from 1945 (that is 60 years)!
• One of the biggest fears of Greece is its Macedonian minority. It is known that a large population of Greece claim Macedonian ethnicity. Actually, during the Civil war in Greece from 1945-1949 a real genocide of the Macedonian population took place there. Many of the Macedonian people were tortured and expelled from their homes. Nowadays Greece doesn’t recognize the Macedonian minority and forbids the use of Macedonian language, culture, education etc.
• Very interesting fact is the following: Luxembourg and Belgium are neighboring countries. Belgium has a province which is called LUXEMBOURG! So far, Belgium never disputed that. In our situation, Greece has a province called Macedonia, but aggressively disputes the right of our country to use its name.
• Greece claims that Macedonia has pretensions over Greek territories. Even if that is true, Greece is several times stronger than Macedonia economically, politically, military etc, so it is really hard to believe that Macedonia can harm Greece, especially by using the name Macedonia.

--Bitola 14:08, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

This is a country which was a part of Jugoslavia,where a lot of people are Albanians,where they speak a bulgarian dialekt,and they want to have a greek name

And which part of this sentence is not correct? Miskin 14:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Usually I’m not answering questions like this (because the answer it too obvious), but I’ll make an exception: Majority of the people in Macedonia are Macedonians, we are not speaking Bulgarian dialect, instead we are speaking Macedonian language and the Macedonia name is not a Greek property. --Bitola 15:33, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

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