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Welcome to the WikiProject Poland discussion!

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This page is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Poland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PolandWikipedia:WikiProject PolandTemplate:WikiProject PolandPoland Project This page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

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Thanks. — Headbomb {_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 09:34, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)

Still need somebody to step up and be more active here

Please see this. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:43, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I have no command of polish language in any way - but after a recent visit to the country - i have been adding polish project tags to category pages - some projects find things easier when categories are managed that way.SatuSuro 18:16, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, that will help. I will shortly write a short message detailing tasks that somebody will have to take over. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 08:27, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Streets in Warsaw

Looking at Category:Streets in Warsaw, I see we have a right mixture of naming formats: X Street, X street, X, Ulica X, and others. How about standardizing? I propose we use the simplest form (just X, unless the street fails to be the primary topic for that name). But anything uniform would be better than the current mixture. Any preferences?--Kotniski (talk) 20:14, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I support total Anglicization of the names, i.e. Piotrków Street, instead of Piotrkowska; Dmowski Street, insted of Dmowskiego etc. Also I support "X Street" format. - Darwinek (talk) 20:49, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

No hard preferences, but I'll go with what Darwinek wrote. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:53, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm rather doubtful that that would be normal English practice (what would Miodowa be - Honey Street? Nowy Świat -> New World Street?)--Kotniski (talk) 06:01, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, the English version of the Warsaw official website uses X Street (generally without full Anglicization): Racławicka Street, Jerozolimskie Avenue, Konstytucji Square etc.--Kotniski (talk) 06:16, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

And that also seems to be the standard used in Category:Streets in Moscow (with occasional exceptions like Cosmonauts Alley). I'm changing my preference to that.--Kotniski (talk) 15:09, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

These are proper names in every language grammar, and even according to grammar rules we should transliterate rather than translate. Imagine "New world street" or "Marshall street"? Vlad fedorov (talk) 08:43, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Though there are some names that intuitively I would prefer to translate. Obviously there are some where the translations are established in English (like Red Square), but for example Konstytucji Square looks a bit weird - if I were writing a guidebook, I would call it Constitution Square. However I'm not sure whether there's some objective reason for accepting Constitution Square but rejecting New World Street and Honey Street - any theorists out there?--Kotniski (talk) 10:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

True. Anyways is it covered somewhere at WP:NC? - Darwinek (talk) 10:47, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so, but I left a note at the NC talkpage - maybe we'll get some outside opinion.--Kotniski (talk) 11:02, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• This is a serious matter. I've been dealing with street names for a long time, especially when creating new articles about churches and synagogues of Kraków with the exact street address for recognition. The assumption being that a foreign researcher and visitor to any Polish city would have to recognize the place using Polish sources including street maps. The example of a Honey Street best illustrates the problem. In the Polish language the street is known as ulica Miodowa, not as ulica Miód which is absent in literature. No translation can therefore be automatic. Ulica Mickiewicza, not ulica Mickiewicz (again, nonexistent in literature), etc. And than, there's the traditional conventions to be considered. All Polish street signs display "ul." This needs to be noted also for the purpose of recognition. The official street name written by any Polish institution would always be: "ul. Miodowa 1". That is how you get there... On the other hand, established toponyms such as the Wawel Hill are OK because they are not addresses to be followed (i.e. Wzgórze wawelskie 12, irrelevant). So, all Polish recognizable toponyms and the exact street addresses ought to be treated as two different entities most of the time. --Poeticbent talk 15:21, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

On the other hand, the original Polish names will appear in the article, so it's not necessary for those names to be actually the article title (readers will realize, as they do with any other topic, that non-English names will take different forms). I've just discovered Category:Squares in Warsaw, incidentally, where a similar mix of translated/untranslated forms appears.--Kotniski (talk) 15:50, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. And, exactly.

Habit and familiarity also count. In English, Krasnaya Ploshad is "Red Square"; but "Champs-Élysées" is generally "Champs-Élysées", not "Elysian Fields". Nihil novi (talk) 17:52, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, the three squares articles that appear in Category:Squares in Warsaw under their Polish names should appear under English-language titles. The advantage would be to facilitate communication among non-Polish-speakers. It would in no way alter the usage of the actual Polish names among Polonophones. Nihil novi (talk) 18:26, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Anyone else think Google Maps is a reliable source for this issue? They just go with the Polish names, apparently. For example, Piotrkowska, not Piotrkowska Street or Ul. Piotrskowska or the "fully Anglicized" Piotrków Street as suggested above. This is consistent with what Kotniski originally proposed, use the simplest form (just X, unless the street fails to be the primary topic for that name), and that's what makes most sense to me. It makes the name of the topic, the name of the street, clear and obvious in the title. What the name means in English, or how it's "fully Anglicized", is all subject matter for article content, and not an appropriate use for the article title. Another advantage of this approach is that following Google Maps provides an easy to access reference.

As far as what to do when the name alone conflicts with other uses, I suggest adding simply (street) for disambiguation, unless there are two streets of that name, in which case (Warsaw street) or whatever. The reason to disambiguate this way is to leave the actual name of the topic, the name of the street, clear and obvious in the title. --Born2cycle (talk) 19:23, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

To quote WP:NCGN: When a guidebook or roadmap written in English shows an autobahn between München and Nürnberg, it is attesting to local usage, because that is what the signs on the autobahn will say; Munich and Nuremberg are still the English names. So here. No. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I recognize that, which is why I'm not suggesting we use (Warszawa street) for disambiguation, but the Anglized (Warsaw Street). But street names are different from city names in that cities are generally much better known than street names, and so are their Anglicized names. As someone else noted above, we have Champs-Élysées, not Elysian Fields. This is because in normal English usage, foreign street names are generally not Anglicized. If they are not Anglicized in normal English, they should not be Anglicized in Misplaced Pages either. --Born2cycle (talk) 19:49, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

So what's the consensus? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:11, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Looks like there isn't one, at least not yet. We could go with the middle ground and the Moscow precedent: translate the "Street" part but (normally) leave the rest of the name alone - are there any strong arguments for doing otherwise?--Kotniski (talk) 17:24, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm okay with that, especially since you said it follows the English version of the official Warsaw site, which I verified here:

Construction is scheduled to begin in 2000 on the Millennium Plaza Center, located at the corner of Jerozolimskie Avenue and Bitwy Warszawskiej Street, across from the Zachodni Train Station.

Makes sense, though it appears that site could use an update... scheduled to begin in 2000??? LOL. --Born2cycle (talk) 20:06, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

"X Street" hybrids jar on me. Neither fish nor fowl. I'd rather use the full original Polish name, or a complete English translation: "ulica Nowy Świat" or "New World Street"—but not "Nowy Świat Street." Nihil novi (talk) 03:40, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

But not Honey Street, right? Is there any way of defining the boundary between acceptable and unacceptable translations? (For me New World Street is unacceptable unless it turns out to have significant support in English sources; but I would happily use Constitution Square regardless - I wish I knew why.)--Kotniski (talk) 07:07, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

How about "Piłsudski Square"? Is there really any advantage to insisting on "Plac Piłsudskiego"? Nihil novi (talk) 08:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Yep, that's one that gets under my radar. Is there something about squares that makes us more inclined to translate them than streets? Or is this just me?--Kotniski (talk) 09:01, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not so hot on the neither fish nor fowl "solution" either, but full translation is unacceptable, so going with the full original Polish name is probably best. Does anyone other than PMAnderson object to that? --Born2cycle (talk) 23:18, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, given what Nihil novi says about Pilsudski Square, probably yes. At least if that rule were to be applied universally. Though perhaps the ones we would want to be an exception to the rule would have enough sources for an English-language name to be identified in the real world.--Kotniski (talk) 05:55, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Ha. I decided to throw my two grosze into the discussion - I am most used and most ok with the X Street hybrid indeed (I give my Polish address as "Ptasia Street"). Fully translating the name is ridiculous (Łódź is not Boat, people, despite few amusing recent arguments at Talk:Łódź... :D). Full Polish names would be not bad but are they really used anywhere in English language? I'd have thought that "X Stret" is the most popular. Maybe we should select some famous examples and do a GBook use comparison analysis? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:25, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Another comparandum is Old Town Square (Prague), which is always so called in English; I would not recognize, and have never seen, the Czech name. If there are no English sources on the streets, it will be difficult to show notability; we are not a street guide for any city, Warsaw, New York, or London. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:23, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

The more I look into this, the dizzier I get. Please look at the below Google Book samples, for the taste of chaos that is going on with regard to street names in Warsaw (since the mid 19th century, no less). It's a free for all, and the only hope lays in the use of modern day English language maps of Poland I believe (as with any other city: in Germany, France, etc).

1. Mazowiecka street in Warsaw - Shirli Gilbert - Music - 2005 - 243 pages
2. Sixth of August Street in Warsaw - Wiktoria Śliwowska - History - 1998 - 352 pages
3. Thieves' Street in Warsaw - Anita Norich - Fiction - 1991 - 142 pages
4. Krochmalna Street in Warsaw - R Baird Shuman - Juvenile Nonfiction - 2002 - 144 pages
5. Franciscan street in Warsaw - History – 1833
6. Leszno Street in Warsaw - Alicia Nitecki - Biography & Autobiography - 1995 - 108 pages
   1. Leszno Street in Warsaw - Louis Falstein - Biography & Autobiography - 1964 - 500 pages
7. Hoza Street in Warsaw - Hugo García-Compeán, Bogdan Mielnik, Merced Montesinos - Science - 2006 - 513 pages
8. Bagno Street in Warsaw - Jacob Apenszlak, Jakób Kenner, Majżesz Polakiewicz, American Federation for Polish Jews, Association of Jewish Refugees and Immigrants from Poland - History - 1943 - 343 pages
9. Katowicka Street in Warsaw - Andrzej K. Olszewski - Art - 1989 - 183 pages
10. Krakowskie Przedmiescie Street in Warsaw - Aleksander Gieysztor, Stanisław Herbst, Bogusław Leśnodorski - History - 1961 - 208 pages
11. Krucza Street in Warsaw - Edward Alexander - Literary Criticism - 1990 - 147 pages
    --Poeticbent talk 23:12, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

All of the five magazines/newspapers that I have been involved with in editorial and/or contributor role and all of the firms which I have worked for as an editor have precisely the same rule: use ul, al. or Al. and then the Polish version of the name. Varsovian (talk) 17:07, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Poland/Cleanup listing

I just discovered we have a Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Poland/Cleanup listing. It seems like a useful automated list of to do tasks. Keep the link in mind, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Outline of Poland

Another strange thing I recently discovered, could use some cleanup and an analysis of what kind of Misplaced Pages scheme it is tied to. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:04, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Future of WikiProject Poland - assistants needed

As I noted above, there is a series of gnomish WikiProject-related tasks that I've been doing for years and that I may be unable to do for the next 15 months. It would be highly appreciated if volunteers would step up to take them over. They involve:

1. monitoring of the new Poland-related article feed. This should be done weekly, and it entails:

   a) checking if the article is encyclopedic and if not, prodding and if necessary nominating it for deletion

   b) slapping appropriate cleanup needed templates on the articles needing them

   c) check if a creator of a Poland-article has been welcomed and invited here (see our welcome template above)

   d) if an article is a DYK quality, nominate it to T:DYK and inform the creator that he should do so himself in the future; if the article is close to but not a DYK quality ask the creator to improve it to a DYK quality and nominate it

2. watchlist and monitor Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Poland
3. monitoring the Poland article news for:

   a) deletion discussions not reported in deletion sorting and report them there

   b) FA/GA nomintions and reviews as well as move requests, commenting on them and announcing them here when appropriate

4. replying to help requests here
5. monitoring our archive size and when it gets to ~200 create a new one
6. Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Poland/Assessment should continue; there are still many Poland-related articles that are unassessed (and many that are not tagged with our {{WikiProject Poland}}. Once an article is templated, it will feed into a cleanup listing, a list of most popular pages, and many other similar useful outlets.
7. occasionally spreading the good will and teamwork spirit by handing out awards

I don't know if somebody would like to step in into my unofficial role as the coordinatoor of this project, but if so, please don't hesitate to step up.

Here is a list of things that we should do but are not, a sort of my own "to do" list for this project that I wanted to implement one day. As I may not be able to do so anymore, perhaps somebody else could:

1. deal with backlog at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Poland/Cleanup listing
2. write a report on our WikiProject for Misplaced Pages:Signpost (example)
3. create an A-class and eventually B-class reviews for our assessments
4. create a monthly wikiproject newsletter

Here is a list of my personal Poland-related articles that will be in need of adoption:

1. cleanup, monitoring and creation of missing articles from the List of Poles from the Polski Słownik Biograficzny
2. as above for a smaller list at User:Piotrus/List of Poles from HoI

On a final note, I want to thank User:Kpalion and User:Poeticbent for taking care of Portal:Poland. I was always happy to know that this task is being done by such reliable editors as yourself. I want to thank User:Kotniski for his activity in the geography-related aspects of the projects, and many, many others for their content contributions (I will not list you here, because that would be one very long list of nearly all active users here). You are a great team, and I am sure you'll do just fine. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:17, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I doubt if there will be anybody willing to replace you here. We will see. I will not make such a promise, as my time is too limited, and one needs hours and hours of their free time to do it all. Tymek (talk) 18:25, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

True. In this context, Piotrus is what we are constantly being told doesn't exist: the indispensable man. Nihil novi (talk) 02:59, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe PasswordUsername/Antinationalist & Co., M.K. or Deancon etc. could temporarily take over:)? That would be fun:). --Jacurek (talk) 16:40, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it might be better to have more than one person to do this. You list seven main gnomish WikiProject-related tasks. Perhaps each job could be done by a different person? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Varsovian (talk • contribs) 17:11, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe we could even use trolls. Loosmark (talk) 17:14, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Please keep the discussion serious and constructive. This is not a laughing matter. Thank you, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:51, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

My bandwidth unfortunately is limited, as demonstrated by my not getting past the death of Bishop Albert at the History of Riga for some time now. As Piotrus has laid out his "run-rate", if you will, activities, I would suggest we wait to see what the outcome is of the EEML proceedings and then move forward with whatever concrete actions might be necessary. Speculation and cheeky cynical comments about leaving the metaphorical wolves to look after the sheep don't really advance the conversation here. VЄСRUМВА 18:10, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Dabie nad Nerem, Jakobovich

Please could the author of this statement cite the source.

" among the Jew's lived in Dąbie nad Nerem was the jakobovich family "

thank you

¬¬¬¬ —Preceding unsigned comment added by RomaJ (talk • contribs) 03:53, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

- Jakubowicz.Xx236 (talk) 11:45, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

The quoted text isn't standard English.Xx236 (talk) 11:51, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

What article are we discussing? The above sentence doesn't seem notable. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:11, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

The article is Dąbie. A few sentences about the Jews of Dąbie were added by an IP in 2007. I've cleaned them up and deleted the reference to the Jakobovich family. — ] (talk · contribs) 17:27, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Lesser Poland

I have been working on the Lesser Poland article for some time now. I hope that one day it will become a Good or better Featured Article, there is a lot of work on it, but it is achievable. Help is appreciated. Tymek (talk) 18:28, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

You may want to drop a note to User:Poeticbent, who has been a major contributor to GAing Kraków. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:38, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Piotr, I already looked into it. The article looks quite good already thanks to Tymek. Section Tourism is a bit too stubby for my taste, but it's all doable. Please include Polish Jura Chain in section Geography. It was a leading DYK I did once, with quite a bit of info. Will help out whenever I can. --Poeticbent talk 19:41, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks guys, I am adding more and more information to the article. Whenever any of you has some time, check this article. Tymek (talk) 04:59, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Minor sabotage

I've chosen mały sabotaż as my newest DYK. Any thoughts on the correct name of that article? Please comment at Talk:Minor sabotage. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:33, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

How to translate Biblia Tysiąclecia?

On the subject of my new stubs and correct names, I've just stubbed pl:Biblia Tysiąclecia to 1000-year Bible. But I cannot find any translation of the title, and considering that the Polish name doesn't use the numeral in the title, I wonder if we shouldn't move it to Thousand Year Bible (or would it be years...?). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:23, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

What about The Millennium Bible? Loosmark (talk) 00:25, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Ah, good one. Would the correct English name be Millenium Bible or Millenial Bible? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:41, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Millennium Bible sounds better to me (don't forget the double "n" ;) ).--Kotniski (talk) 06:17, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Compare Third Millennium Bible.Xx236 (talk) 07:36, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

There's no official name I suppose. I'll mail the publisher, maybe they can halp. Meanwhile I'd also vote for The Millennium Bible - it's the most common name on Google. rdrozd (talk) 07:45, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Eastern Europe is something of a battleground (understatement of the decade)

Above an example of language rationalizing discrimination of EE editors in Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren. I don't accept being an underdog of this Misplaced Pages and I don't understand why other editors accept such discriminations. The logic of this Misplaced Pages reproduces existing stereotypes and prejudices rather thatn helps to oppose them. Polish joke says: "Polish jokes were again strengthened by German immigrant DPs (displaced persons) fleeing war-torn Europe in the late 1940s. These jokes were fuelled by ethnic slurs disseminated by German National Socialist propaganda, which attempted to justify the Nazi murder by presenting Poles as "dreck", dirty and inferior." The same mechanism works till today and I'm writing not about jokes but about some academic articles and texts in this Misplaced Pages. Nazi propaganda pictures contributed by the Bundesarchiv create the image of the WWII, the victims didn't have cameras to document their history. Unfortunately even some Polish immigrants accept sometimes Western POV and copy existing stereotypes and prejudices from existing "sources" rather than study a subject. If you are an Afro-American woman, you can demand respect and anti-discrimination policy but if you are a (non-Russian) Slav, you should obey, because you are weak. There are theories, eg. Postcolonialism, explaining situation of EE nations, also the editors participating in this Misplaced Pages.

Unfortunately some EE editors are frustrated by the discriminations, brake the rules and are banned, rather than to oppose the discriminations.Xx236 (talk) 08:31, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

• Just to be clear. EE editors come from many opposing camps, per above, but there are attempts being made to foster more cooperation between them. Time will tell. EE mailing list ruling will be a Litmus test for many of us. --Poeticbent talk 20:44, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Polish editors are just fighting each other. It seems to be our national sport.Xx236 (talk) 12:37, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

History of Pomerania (1945–present)

Strange. I don't like such games. Xx236 (talk) 14:04, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

What games? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:16, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about existence of Polish-GDR Pomerania till 1989. In fact the two areas were strictly isolated and supervised by two secret police. Practically no cultural exchange existed. Chicago-Polish Pomerania was more real than a Polish-GDR one. Xx236 (talk) 09:40, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

History of Pomerania (1933–1945) contains plenty of errors. I have removed a number of them, but not all.Xx236 (talk) 11:18, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

George Rudolf of Legnica and George Rudolf of Liegnitz

Hello, this person has two articles, please help. -Peter Braun74 (talk) 20:45, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Soviet invasion of Poland

I have nominated Soviet invasion of Poland for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. --Labattblueboy (talk) 15:39, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

goodbye

I'm leaving the wikipedia project because I got tired of spending my time here. Some people like for example the obvious sock user:Varsovian (the self proclaimed "new user") can provoke and missrepresent the sources, call people idiots or ugly trolls as much they like and nothing ever happens to them. Anyway I just wanted to say thanks to everybody who worked with me on articles especially and to radeksz and jacurek, it was nice working with you guys. Loosmark (talk) 18:55, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

• Project-Class Poland pages
• NA-importance Poland pages
• WikiProject Poland articles