| Revision as of 23:12, 13 November 2009 editIan13 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users6,881 edits →Go: reply← Previous edit | Revision as of 01:44, 14 November 2009 edit undoBarryNorton (talk | contribs)369 editsNo edit summaryNext edit → | ||
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| In all seriousness, could you please clarify what qualifies ] for a speedy keep, but not ]? Just your suspicions about my motives or something I'm missing? ] (]) 19:41, 13 November 2009 (UTC) | In all seriousness, could you please clarify what qualifies ] for a speedy keep, but not ]? Just your suspicions about my motives or something I'm missing? ] (]) 19:41, 13 November 2009 (UTC) | ||
| :No-one, besides yourself (the nominator), supported that Go be deleted, and the nomination was made for 'consistancy' which clearly the two languages are distinct and will have differing levels of notability. Because of the nature of the nomination, and lack of advancing discussion, the outcome was going to be keep, and continuing the AfD would have been a waste of time and bad publicity. The nomination of Go! has sparked much discussion and arguments for both keeping and deleting, and thus there really is material difference in these discussions. ]] 23:12, 13 November 2009 (UTC) | :No-one, besides yourself (the nominator), supported that Go be deleted, and the nomination was made for 'consistancy' which clearly the two languages are distinct and will have differing levels of notability. Because of the nature of the nomination, and lack of advancing discussion, the outcome was going to be keep, and continuing the AfD would have been a waste of time and bad publicity. The nomination of Go! has sparked much discussion and arguments for both keeping and deleting, and thus there really is material difference in these discussions. ]] 23:12, 13 November 2009 (UTC) | ||
| ::But there's something I really don't understand here - doesn't the notability have to be established ''in the article''? This whole "come on, we all know it's Google etc." argument, in meta-discussions not backed up in the article, make me genuinely uneasy. I had to bully the most vocal opponenet of Go!, and proponent of Go, into actually lowering himself to making positive contributions to the Go article, instead of throwing him weight around outside it. There's something very wrong with this when it leaves an article on the site that indefinitely fails to justify its own inclusion when I'm working hard, challenge after challenge, to defend a language I honestly believe is of note. ] (]) 01:44, 14 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 01:44, 14 November 2009
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Danny Wallace
Hi Ian, I have added in a new photograph to replace the image of Danny Wallace that you took at an event last week. This was at the request of Danny, who likes the picture, but thinks it is a bit too blurry. The picture now on his wikipedia is his official photo. Message me with any questions. Randomwiki (talk) 10:18, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- No problem. Image permission dispute adressed via. email - awaiting response. Ian¹³/t 17:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Deleting pages
i came to wikipedia today to look up a model named Brooke Banx to find that there had been an article but it had been deleted because the person was not significant. i don't quite understand that. the very fact that i wanted to look her up makes her significant, no? does the criteria for speedy deletion consider the number of page views? surely i'm not the only one to ever look her up. i realise i myself am not significant enough to merit an article--tho my user page could be considered one--but i kind of thought wp was a compendium of everything anyone knows that anyone else might want to know. DyNama (talk) 03:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Hello. I understand that you refer to an article I deleted nearly a year ago. The article was actually deleted, as stated in the log, because it "didn't assert the importance or significance of its subject". This is different to what you suggest. It was never debated as to their significance (and I wish to make no statement on it, as I know nothing about them), but instead the article that was in place didn't make any claim of significance. No restriction was ever made on the recreation of an article, and you are welcome to do so provided it meets current policy and guidelines. Page views are not considered because it is merely removal of an article because it doesn't meet a very basic standard, with anyone welcome to rewrite. Userpages are not subject to the same policies as articles, and notability standards do not apply. Ian¹³/t 23:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Unarchiving an archived page
Your edit comment that removing Talk:Ambigram/Archive 3 was "routine (non-controversial) cleanup" is simply false. It was properly archived, as people can and do do on a regular basis. Please do not take such an action again, and do not leave deceptive edit comments in the future. DreamGuy (talk) 19:01, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- I have reverted your action due to selective removal of comments by another user. Discussion continued on the article talk page. Ian¹³/t 21:05, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- Well, if the person would add comments to the correct version of the talk page instead of the bad version he keeps reverting to and ignoring a clearly valid archiving of the page, then he wouldn't have that problem, now would he? It's ridiculous for you to claim that's a personal attack against that user and further to use that justification as a threat for a block -- it is clear that you are not trying to be at all neutral in this matter. Threats of blocking out of nowhere to take a side in a dispute shows a clear lack of judgment. The bigger problem here is the person gaming the system to try to declare a false consensus through counting votes of anon IPs and clear meatpuppet accounts to insert original research, POV and clear COI material. Your threat, however, seems to indicate that you have no intention of paying any attention to any of that and merely to assist that other editor in his policy violations. Please do not make threats against me for such flimsy reasons, especially with such clear violations on the part of the other user. DreamGuy (talk) 13:29, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- You are welcome to bring evidence of sockpuppets to my or any other admins attention and we would be happy to investigate. Meanwhile, selectively removing another persons talk page comments is obviously deliberately disruptive and an attack on that user. Two wrongs doesn't make a right, nor does it allow attacks on a user. If you have concerns over the archiving, discuss them on the talk page instead. I cannot police everything - if I see a breach of policy, then I will warn and/or block, regardless of other things that may be going on. People are sentenced in real life every day despite others getting away with murder. Yours, Ian¹³/t 14:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- I notice that RoyLeban has since been trying to say how he reached the conclusion of consensus on the talk page, so can I ask you query how he reached that conclusion with evidence, rather than making ad hominem attacks. Ian¹³/t 14:27, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- From the tone of your comments you seem to be acting like you think your admin position makes you a cop instead of what the position is intended to be: a janitor. Yes, you cannot "police" everything, and you, based upon your comments here, should not be "policing" anything at all. You should be trying to resolved conflicts, not actively taking a side and escalating them. I will use the talk page, but unfortunately the editor in question ignores all discussion posted by anyone he disagrees with, and your actions have helped ensure that his gaming the system will continue to allow him to outright WP:OWN the article so he can present his opinions as facts and to promote websites he is involved in. DreamGuy (talk) 14:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- There are two people there saying the links need to be removed, one saying they need to stay as is; Two people saying the coi tag needs to be there, and only one (the person with the coi) saying it does not; and so forth and so on. That's not consensus by any sane definition of the word, that's Roy doing whatever he wants. DreamGuy (talk) 14:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- When warning people, I do have to raise above the janitor capacity, hence the simplification police. You know as well as I do that its inappropriate to remove editors comments as 'vandalism'. My role in resolving the conflict is to try and coax people to discuss themselves on the talk page, and to warn/block disruptive editors to allow the discussion to function. As I say, produce evidence of what you believe to be "gaming the system" and I will look at it (or obviously feel free to post it elsewhere to other admins) but do not just poke at an empty accusation. If you say there are two people, discuss which two and why the others don't count on the talk page - don't just moan about it to me. If you want to try and develop a new consensus, ask for people to input their current thoughts. All I am trying to do is encourage people to be constructive and talk, but your attacks on editors by selectively removing comments, labeling people vandals, claiming people "clearly not get Misplaced Pages", are not helping the discussion. And if you do selectively remove Roy's comments again, I will block you (or ask another admin to look at it and make a decision if I feel there is a loss of neutrality), just as I would warn then block Roy if he did the same to you. It's just inappropriate behaviour. Ian¹³/t 15:20, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- Funny that you say that removing comments is bad, yet when Roy edited that talk page he conspicuously removed my comments from it and you did nothing about it at all. As far as it not being appropirate to remove comments and call it vandalism, that's exactly what Roy does on a regular basis, while my edit was calling the unarchiving of properly archived old content as vandalism, not his comments in the first place as vandalism. As far as new consensus, we had that, except for Roy not allowing it... DreamGuy (talk) 15:39, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- It is his own talk page, but it is also inappropriate to plainly remove your comments. Can you give me the page diff for "conspicuously removed my comments from it" please, then I can warn as necessary. Regarding your 'vandalism' revision, you did use your vandal whacking tool to both revert and remove a series of his comments from the main talk page - it's designed for things such as "MOOOOOOOOOOOO". Ian¹³/t 16:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- Funny that you say that removing comments is bad, yet when Roy edited that talk page he conspicuously removed my comments from it and you did nothing about it at all. As far as it not being appropirate to remove comments and call it vandalism, that's exactly what Roy does on a regular basis, while my edit was calling the unarchiving of properly archived old content as vandalism, not his comments in the first place as vandalism. As far as new consensus, we had that, except for Roy not allowing it... DreamGuy (talk) 15:39, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- When warning people, I do have to raise above the janitor capacity, hence the simplification police. You know as well as I do that its inappropriate to remove editors comments as 'vandalism'. My role in resolving the conflict is to try and coax people to discuss themselves on the talk page, and to warn/block disruptive editors to allow the discussion to function. As I say, produce evidence of what you believe to be "gaming the system" and I will look at it (or obviously feel free to post it elsewhere to other admins) but do not just poke at an empty accusation. If you say there are two people, discuss which two and why the others don't count on the talk page - don't just moan about it to me. If you want to try and develop a new consensus, ask for people to input their current thoughts. All I am trying to do is encourage people to be constructive and talk, but your attacks on editors by selectively removing comments, labeling people vandals, claiming people "clearly not get Misplaced Pages", are not helping the discussion. And if you do selectively remove Roy's comments again, I will block you (or ask another admin to look at it and make a decision if I feel there is a loss of neutrality), just as I would warn then block Roy if he did the same to you. It's just inappropriate behaviour. Ian¹³/t 15:20, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- There are two people there saying the links need to be removed, one saying they need to stay as is; Two people saying the coi tag needs to be there, and only one (the person with the coi) saying it does not; and so forth and so on. That's not consensus by any sane definition of the word, that's Roy doing whatever he wants. DreamGuy (talk) 14:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- You are welcome to bring evidence of sockpuppets to my or any other admins attention and we would be happy to investigate. Meanwhile, selectively removing another persons talk page comments is obviously deliberately disruptive and an attack on that user. Two wrongs doesn't make a right, nor does it allow attacks on a user. If you have concerns over the archiving, discuss them on the talk page instead. I cannot police everything - if I see a breach of policy, then I will warn and/or block, regardless of other things that may be going on. People are sentenced in real life every day despite others getting away with murder. Yours, Ian¹³/t 14:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- Well, if the person would add comments to the correct version of the talk page instead of the bad version he keeps reverting to and ignoring a clearly valid archiving of the page, then he wouldn't have that problem, now would he? It's ridiculous for you to claim that's a personal attack against that user and further to use that justification as a threat for a block -- it is clear that you are not trying to be at all neutral in this matter. Threats of blocking out of nowhere to take a side in a dispute shows a clear lack of judgment. The bigger problem here is the person gaming the system to try to declare a false consensus through counting votes of anon IPs and clear meatpuppet accounts to insert original research, POV and clear COI material. Your threat, however, seems to indicate that you have no intention of paying any attention to any of that and merely to assist that other editor in his policy violations. Please do not make threats against me for such flimsy reasons, especially with such clear violations on the part of the other user. DreamGuy (talk) 13:29, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Warning
Yay, my first warning ever in over 8 years of editing :)
First off, thanks for stepping in and I really mean that.
I knew there was a risk when I wrote that section. I really, really tried to avoid attacking DreamGuy, restricting myself to responding to his baseless attacks. But, if you look, you'll find that my record is clean and that he does the same thing all over the place, with multiple lengthy blocks. Finally, it was too much. I wrote what I think it is a fairly accurate description of his actions. I thought putting it on the Talk page was a bit nicer than going higher.
If there's anything that makes it look like I have a COI (which I clearly don't) it's that I spent a lot of time improving the article and to have huge chunks of what I did summarily ripped out is really annoying. I added that content because I thought it belongs, not because I thought it didn't. Duh! On Misplaced Pages, we're supposed to improve content, not just delete it. And if you look at DreamGuy's edits, you'll find the vast majority are deletes. Having him repeat baseless claims gets really frustrating. And having him state (over and and over again) that we just can't have external links or that timelines aren't allowed, etc., when there is either no such policy or it is a misstatement of it, is frustrating as well.
If you believe DreamGuy, I work for/own both FlipScript and Ambiscript (and all the other companies referenced in the page), I'm best friends with Robert Petrick and John Langdon and everybody else in the world, I have a hundred puppets who do my bidding, etc., etc. It's incredulous. I wish, that you, as an administrator, had been firmer with him, telling him (a) he should stop attacking me, and (b) he should stop making unsubstantiated claims. For example, I apparently made a single counting mistake on Monkeyshine. Oops. How does that make me a liar? Why does he keep repeating that Tech Lovr is a FlipScript person when he has no proof and I honestly believe it to be false? I'm not mad at you for not reigning him in, it's just a wish.
So, sorry, if I stepped over the line. I kept my cool under pressure as long as I could. But I really do wish some administrators would take a hard look at him.
On changing the archive to 30d, you proposed 30d and I responded suggesting 60d. Nobody else responded. Why not go to 60d? (I don't care that much, so don't make a big issue of it)
RoyLeban (talk) 01:18, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
P.S. Here's DreamGuy's edit summary when he removed your warning from his talk page: →Ambigram talk page (warning): identifying problem behavior so it can be stopped should be encouraged, not a reason to "warn" someone
RoyLeban (talk) 01:20, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you for your response. I've not seen anything to suggest that you have a conflict of interest, or that you are deliberately attempting to lie. I can see you were trying to avoid attacking, but the talk page really isn't the place to do it, and the community cannot ban people form articles. As you are probably aware, I have warned DreamGuy twice now over the course of the last few days (for attacks, and for the same thing I warned you). With regards to his removal, either he wants to provoke or really thinks he's not doing anything wrong, and sadly it seems to be the latter. From my position, everything that has been going on has been bad, but it takes gross incivility for a block to stand, and thus whilst I keep an eye on it all, it is hard to have strong evidence to support a block of any editor on disruptive grounds. The thing is, like with the counting, you shouldn't be counting in the first place, so it could be said of him that that was to provoke him into responding - I know it's unlikely it was, but it's very hard to be sure that an editor is deliberately annoying people without others affecting it. You'll see of his former blocks (and I cannot use these as a basis of deciding to block, only of determining length) that they have been undone because of things like not reverting 3 times within 24 hours despite his edits being against the spirit of the 3rr. I understand it's frustrating, but its quite possibly frustrating to him as well for other reasons. Ian¹³/t 12:09, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
- Regarding the auto-archiving: have you seen the length of the page already? It's still 20-odd days until anything there will be archived. Ian¹³/t 12:10, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Your recent ANI thread
Considering your recent ANI thread making accusations against me that other admins have soundly rejected, I would suggest that you desist from acting on Talk:Ambigram in any way that suggests that you are speaking as an impartial admin. Roy has enough problems following basic Misplaced Pages standards on his own without you making inaccurate claims about policy that he can grab onto as a rationalization for his bad behavior. DreamGuy (talk) 02:16, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
- Ian, please ignore DreamGuy. It is obvious that you stopped by the Ambigram page as an impartial administrator.
- DreamGuy, it's never too late to start being civil.
- RoyLeban (talk) 05:01, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
- And you've just made another personal attack on Roy here. There is a difference between posting with diffs various accusations in the appropriate place for review by others - it's quite another to use them as a mallet in content disputes. Ian¹³/t 09:58, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Don't think Higenzon removed the csd notice...
I noticed that you warned Higenzon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) for removal of the csd notice, but I don't see that in his (mostly deleted) edit history. He did recreate the article. Just don't want to accuse him of things that he didn't do. ;) Cheers! Syrthiss (talk) 18:58, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
- That's what you get for not properly looking at edit histories. I've removed the warnings with apologies, and salted it instead for a month as the subject won't gain notability in that time. Thank you for pointing this out to me - I'll keep a better watch for this. Ian¹³/t 19:03, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
- Not a prob, I've done things like that before too. :) Syrthiss (talk) 19:08, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Go
In all seriousness, could you please clarify what qualifies Go for a speedy keep, but not Go!? Just your suspicions about my motives or something I'm missing? BarryNorton (talk) 19:41, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- No-one, besides yourself (the nominator), supported that Go be deleted, and the nomination was made for 'consistancy' which clearly the two languages are distinct and will have differing levels of notability. Because of the nature of the nomination, and lack of advancing discussion, the outcome was going to be keep, and continuing the AfD would have been a waste of time and bad publicity. The nomination of Go! has sparked much discussion and arguments for both keeping and deleting, and thus there really is material difference in these discussions. Ian¹³/t 23:12, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- But there's something I really don't understand here - doesn't the notability have to be established in the article? This whole "come on, we all know it's Google etc." argument, in meta-discussions not backed up in the article, make me genuinely uneasy. I had to bully the most vocal opponenet of Go!, and proponent of Go, into actually lowering himself to making positive contributions to the Go article, instead of throwing him weight around outside it. There's something very wrong with this when it leaves an article on the site that indefinitely fails to justify its own inclusion when I'm working hard, challenge after challenge, to defend a language I honestly believe is of note. BarryNorton (talk) 01:44, 14 November 2009 (UTC)