Misplaced Pages

:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tothwolf: Difference between revisions - Misplaced Pages

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
< Misplaced Pages:Arbitration | Requests | Case Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 01:51, 15 November 2009 editManning Bartlett (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users8,107 edits →Arbitrators' opinions on hearing this matter (0/0/0/0): update← Previous edit Revision as of 02:16, 15 November 2009 edit undoManning Bartlett (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users8,107 edits adding templatesNext edit →
Line 1: Line 1:
{{RFARcasenav|case name=Tothwolf|clerk1=MBisanz|clerk2=Dougweller|draft arb=TBC|draft arb2=}}
{{ArbComNav}} {{ArbComNav}}
<!--uncomment and un-nowiki when case opened <nowiki> <!--uncomment and un-nowiki when case opened <nowiki>

Revision as of 02:16, 15 November 2009

Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerks: MBisanz (Talk) & Dougweller (Talk) Drafting arbitrator: TBC (Talk)

Misplaced Pages Arbitration
Open proceedings
Active sanctions
Arbitration Committee
Audit
Track related changes
Watchlist all case pages: 1, 2, 3, 4
This case is currently open; as such, no changes to this page should be made. Any additions should be reverted: if you have evidence you wish the Arbitrators to consider, post it at the evidence page.

Please do not edit this page directly unless you are either 1) an Arbitrator, 2) an Arbitration Clerk, or 3) adding yourself to this case. Statements on this page are original comments provided when the Committee was initially requested to Arbitrate this page (at Requests for arbitration), and serve as opening statements; as such, they should not be altered. Any evidence you wish to provide to the Arbitrators should go on the /Evidence subpage.

Arbitrators, the parties, and other editors may suggest proposed principles, findings, and remedies at /Workshop. That page may also be used for general comments on the evidence. Arbitrators will then vote on a final decision in the case at /Proposed decision.

Once the case is closed, editors may add to the #Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions as needed, but this page should not be edited otherwise. Please raise any questions at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#Requests for clarification, and report violations of remedies at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement.

Involved parties

Requests for comment

Other steps in Dispute resolution


Statement by Jehochman

While patrolling WP:ANI I stumbled across a complex multi-party dispute that has been festering for over a month. Tothwolf claims hounding, collusion and malicious deletion nominations by JBSupreme, Theserialcomma and Miami33139. Those parties claim Tothwolf is "delusional" (Miami33139's words). There appears to be intense rancor on all sides with regrettably breaches of decorum by at least two of the involved parties. If you read the linked discussions, you'll notice the paucity of uninvolved editors willing to brave the long screeds and flames. I believe arbitration would help resolve this problem. The parties need structure, and they need uninvolved parties willing to closely review a substantial body of evidence spanning multiple articles and multiple editors. We do not have any other process that would provide suitable resolution. ANI cannot repel drama of this magnitude. Jehochman 14:07, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

@Spartaz: The parties chose not to engage in formal dispute resolution. Instead, they kept going to ANI, and their comments were so combative, no uninvolved parties want to get caught in the crossfire. RFC is good for disputes involving a single editor, but it cannot effectively handle a dispute where multiple editors are behaving badly. I do not think RFC could help at this point. It does not make sense to start four redundant RFC's that focus on the same events and patterns of behavior. It will be more efficient to hear a single arbitration case. Jehochman 16:56, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
@Stephen Bain: It is not lazy (a regrettable personal attack by you against me) for an administrator to seek arbitration rather than imposing controversial sanctions. Some of the arbitrators have been notoriously wobbly about supporting administrators who undertake hard problems. I'm not keen to have a passel of disruptive editors swarm me with accusations of admin abuse if I try to put an end to their fun and games. After four ANI threads that did not generate any sort of consensus, what measure do you think might be workable in lieu of arbitration? Please do share with me what form of dispute resolution we have that is applicable to multiple users (RFC is only good for one) on an involuntary basis (mediation requires consent of all parties). Jehochman 12:01, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
@Coren, thank you so much for offering to sit the parties down and guide them to RFC. I will watch carefully to see whether that works. No longer relevant. Jehochman 03:20, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Jéské Couriano

I will not say anything on this matter aside from this - Theserialcomma and Tothwolf have a history stretching back a few months; I've tried to amass enough diffs in a timely enough fashion for Tothwolf to use in any RFC/U, but after Theserialcomma butted into discussions I was having with a blocked user, I was obliged to try and disengage. -Jeremy 14:28, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Miami33139

ArbCom does not need to hear this.

Jehochman brings this to ArbCom with a statement that there is no other process that can handle drama of this magnitude. On the contrary, this is not drama of high magnitude. This boils down to a simple case of ownership. In the AN/Incident yesterday I repeatedly asked Tothwolf, or any adminstrator, how one specific diff of a minor edit presented a case of harassment by myself of Tothwolf. After ten repeats of this one question, Tothwolf responded, showing he had made three minor edits to the article in question, eight months before, and in a different section of the list. He did not back down from his claim that these minor edits, on different sections, eight months apart, were harassing him. This is a ridiculous claim on its face.

ArbCom could break this entire incident up into that response from Tothwolf to understand this issue. Misplaced Pages does have processes that can deal with ownership and false claims of harassment, and that is for any administrator to actually act when they see such obvious displays. Bringing this case to ArbCom will certainly become drama of high magnitude, because there are a dozen more claimants to be heard where Tothwolf has screamed "HARASSMENT!" A simple glance at his talk page shows a years worth of complaints of his etiquette from many editors.

Tothwolf has shown that he believes minor edits separated by eight months are harassment of him. An ArbCom case where he will bring forth hundreds of such diffs, claiming they all harass him, will frustrate everyone to no end. These claims are ridiculous. Send this back to the administrators and tell one of them to figure out how minor edits separated by eight months harass anyone, and tell them to make an appropriate response based on their judgement. Miami33139 (talk) 17:25, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Replies by Miami33139

Reply to SoWhy and Elen of Roads
The necessity of blocking the lot of us would require at least some finding that each person did something wrong. Here is your chance. Review the diff below. If there is a credible rationale that the diff below harasses Tothwolf, I will leave the project. I have not commented at, towards, or in reply to Tothwolf in over a month. I have studiously avoided him. Other than followup to pre-existing discussions (where I still avoided any potential showing of conflict with him), I have not touched the precious set articles where he claims ownership. He still claims I am harassing him. His claims are preposterous. This does not require ArbCom attention at all. He says the diff below is part of my harassment. Show the harassment at that diff and I will leave Misplaced Pages. I want no part of a project so ridiculous that eight months between minor edits on different sections can be harassment. Miami33139 (talk) 23:20, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Reply 2, to Elen

This is not a case of content. The base issue here is behavior. An RFC about content would not resolve any issue in a timely manner. Misplaced Pages:Notability (fiction) has been discussed for several years and has yet to come to good agreements.

  1. The base issue here is behavior.
  2. Tothwolf claims harassment.
  3. Tothwolf provided the diff below as evidence of harassment.
  4. Does the diff below show harassment? Yes or No?

My defense of this claim of harassment is that Tothwolf's claim plainly lacks evidence. Secondarily, I counter that Tothwolf's repeated false claims constitute an attack on myself, a claim backed up by the WP:NPA policy that repeated claims about behavior that lack evidence are attacks. So the diff below is not out of context or pointless. Tothwolf provided this as evidence. Does it provide evidence or not? You are saying that we all deserve some sort of sanction. A sanction has to be backed up by evidence. I have acted, in the last month, as if I did have sanctions. I have studiously avoided direct engagement of Tothwolf. Yet, here I am, still being accused of harassment. If we were under sanctions, and Tothwolf asked for me to be blocked, would you block me based on this evidence provided?

The Diff that can settle the whole thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=List_of_portable_software&diff=prev&oldid=324167183

If any Arbitrator can show me how that diff harasses Tothwolf I will leave the project. No need to open the case. If there is no explanation of how that diff harasses Tothwolf, you know what kind of non-evidence you will get if you open the case. Miami33139 (talk) 18:14, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Statement by theserialcomma

Reply to Jeske Couriano: i've asked jeske couriano repeatedly to leave me alone. his responses have been some of the following: "slot off, fragface. You are not the victim under any circumstance, TSC" and "chummer, shut the frag up", "i am on your ass" "i am 100% disgusted by your behavior towards me", tothwolf is innocent, go after Theserialcomma, i will block you and seek a ban against you for harassing tothwolf. these are just some of the things jeske has said to me, always in relation to tothwolf. i know they collude on irc, and jeske's harassing me to help out his irc friend (tothwolf). but his behavior towards me is atrocious and completely unbecoming of an admin. everything jeske says to me is vile, and he's insistent on harassing me. tothwolf's failure to assume good faith and canvassing IRC are obvious. see User:Mikaey/Tothwolf for an admin's take on this. This deleted page, by the way, is why jeske went to Mikaey's page to tell him 'Theserialcomma is tothwolf's agent provocateur. if you are going after tothwolf, you should go after TSC instead'. Mikaey's response was that Most of the stuff I documented predates their interactions. . Later on at a WQA, Mikaey went on to write FWIW, Tothwolf does have a history of crying "wolf" whenever anyone does something to an article that he doesn't like. If he has ever touched the article, it suddenly turns into "wikihounding", when those users had no such intentions. I think Tothwolf has thrown the words "wikistalking" and "wikihounding" around more than anyone else I've come across on WP. Tothwolf always manages to avoid any sort of rebuff for his actions, because he always manages to paint the user he is after as the bad guy. This instance is just another in a chain of continued behavior which I find completely unhelpful and inappropriate for a Misplaced Pages user. Honestly, it needs to stop. Yesterday.

here is another gem where jeske goes out of his way to harass me. another editor had a semi attack subpage about me, which i nominated for deletion. jeske suddenly showed up, out of nowhere, having no business on that AFD, just to vote 'keep' on an attack page about me. Can someone tell this guy to stay away from me? http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:McJeff/BlockLog

Question by uninvolved Spartaz

Has it now become a tradition to skip the RFC and go straight to arbitration these days? Seems to be a worrying recent trend & is not for the good. Spartaz 15:27, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved Elen of the Roads

I have seen every one of those go by at ANI and concur that the ANI noticeboard was entirely unsuited as a venue to untangling the mess. My perception is that the root cause is a different view of the importance/notability of a class of topics, and the problem has mushroomed because all the editors have preferred to make things personal, rather than hold discussions with the possibility of a compromise view. Given this, and given all of the editors outright refusal to engage in any form of DR, I would have thought the other option available is to block all of them until such time as they agree to (a) stop accusing each other of the seven deadly sins and (b) agree to some form of mediation regarding the topic group. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:51, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

@ Miami33139

There are a lot more diffs in this case than that one, so your question appears entirely pointless. If all of you could for a moment put aside your accusations of each other, and establish what is the basis of your disagreement about editing the encyclopaedia (because there is one, and I would say it's to do with how notable some topics are, and how they should be handled), this can be settled with an RFC on the subject, and all of you (a) agreeing to abide by it, and (b) agreeing not to flame each other all the time. ArbCom won't look at who is right or wrong with regard to content. They will only look at your behaviour, and from what I've seen will have no option but to sanction the lot of you.Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:03, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved SoWhy

The ANI reports demonstrates two reasons why arbitration is the most reasonable next step:

  1. The users named by the filing party have demonstrated repeatedly that they are completely unwilling to consider that they might be incorrect. While RFC has not been tried here, we already know that those editors are unwilling to reflect on their conduct voluntarily from their comments in both ANI reports.
  2. The community has demonstrated their lack of willingness to resolve the situation in those ANI reports as well and there is no reason to believe that they will act different if an RFC is attempted. The first ANI report was even taken to its own subpage where it was left and ignored afterwards. I tried to raise the matter again but no one commented further. The second ANI report demonstrates an equal lack of willingness to handle the situation.

For those reasons, I think RFC, while not tried before, would be unproductive in this special case since it requires a certain level of willingness to communicate with the opposite parties and to reflect on one's behavior. I cannot see such a willingness to exist in this case no matter how much good faith I am willing to assume, so I would urge ArbCom to take this case to resolve this conflict which the community demonstrated to be unable to resolve. Regards SoWhy 22:44, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

@ Stephen Bain
Per WP:RFAR/G#PRIOR, a request can be directly accepted without prior steps of dispute resolution if the filing party explains why those steps would likely be pointless and fruitful. As Jehochman has explained in it's opening statement, the community has already demonstrated that it's unwilling and/or unable to resolve the dispute themselves. Furthermore, all involved editors have demonstrated their unwillingness to talk to each other or to consider that they might be incorrect in any way. But all steps of dispute resolution before arbitration require that the editors involved are willing to resolve the dispute or at least that they are willing to listen to neutral third-parties. Since Jehochman has laid out why other steps prior to arbitration would be insufficient to resolve the problem (as have I), I think it's inappropriate to imply that directly requesting arbitration is based on the laziness of the filing party. Regards SoWhy 13:23, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Tothwolf

Each of the three editors (Theserialcomma, Miami33139, JBsupreme) have a history of harassing and "hounding" other editors and I've unfortunately become their latest target.

Theserialcomma has been party to a number of AN/I discussions and has previously been blocked due to baiting and their behaviour. They also have a history of abusing COI/N and SPI and making false allegations towards others.

Miami33139's last target was User:Ed Fitzgerald, who finally left Misplaced Pages due to constant hounding. Miami33139 tended to follow Ed Fitzgerald to remove his edits (since Ed Fitzgerald left, Miami33139 continues bulk remove large numbers of his edits).

JBsupreme has a very long history of making personal attacks towards others, especially in his edit summaries. These often contain vulgar language in all caps and have earned him a number of warnings from administrators and other editors.

On an individual basis, each of these editors has embarked on a campaign of wikihounding. It seems as though they are doing this as a form of "retribution" due to my work on other articles at AfD and for tagging prodded articles for the WP:COMP deletion workflow.

Within approximately the last two months, these three editors began engaging in collusion and meatpuppetry. This has taken place both with articles I've edited that they've AfD'd, as well as other articles that they would individually nominate for deletion. They've also used these same tactics against editors involved in other AfD discussions.

Between about September 25th and October 1st they began a campaign of mass AfD/XfD nominations in what appears to have been an attempt to draw the focus off the larger issue at AN/I, which by in large worked as the behavioural issue discussion was derailed. Many other editors at the time also felt their behaviour was harmful to the project. This is largely detailed on AN/I here.

I feel as though I've tried pretty much everything else possible to resolve this situation short of either leaving the project (such as what User:Ed Fitzgerald did and something I've been considering) or having ArbCom review this issue. I've tried taking this to AN/I without resolution and individual administrators have mostly suggested I collect diffs and document things. I really feel as though the community has failed me and left me out in the cold with no way to defend myself against the harassment from these three individuals. I will admit that dealing with these three editors has at times been rather stressful and at times I've made some comments I wouldn't have likely made otherwise, but by in large I've attempted to deal with each encounter without making things worse.

While I personally feel these editors' contribs and the diff links provided in the AN/I discussions above make this an easy WP:DUCK case, I understand that others who have not witnessed these behaviours first hand may not be able to see the issue in the same way without first having spent a considerable amount of time reviewing contribs and diffs.

--Tothwolf (talk) 03:50, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

@ Elen of the Roads

It has more to do with the wikihouding and meatpuppetry behaviours than anything related to the notability of individual topics. The mass-AfD campaign initiated by these individuals which mainly took place around September 25th to October 1st seems to have clouded the issue and taken the focus off the behavioural issues. I would not expect any editor to simply ignore the ongoing behaviours of these three editors which includes the monitoring of contribs to "stalk" and follow behind to initiate AfD processes for articles I edit. As I mention above, this seems to be done as "retribution" for my work on improving other articles or bringing up these editors' behavioural issues on AN/I. These behaviours from these three editors seems to be in direct conflict with how the community expects editors to behave and this behaviour is still ongoing as of this very moment.

I currently feel as though I am unable to edit articles in mainspace and I am questioning why I'm even still attempting to be productive here while these behaviours are ongoing. Vandalism reverts, typo corrections, or attempts at article expansion or improvement seem to lead to one of these three editors nominating that article for AfD, often with at least one of the other three editors following to the same AfD. It should also be noted that none of these three editors edited articles in these topic areas at all prior to the wikihouding. Since the wikihouding campaign began, these editors have attempted to involve themselves in more related AfDs or make minor edits to related articles in an attempt to have this stuff "blend in" with their other contribs.

As documented in the wikitable included in the very long AN/I thread linked above (which could stand to be updated), the wikihouding and following of my edits stretched across a wide variety of topics and would even occur when I merely !voted in an existing AfD or tagged an AfD'd article for the WP:COMP deletion workflow. In those cases, usually at least two of these editors would jump into that AfD because they were following my contribs (which two seemed to vary but it was usually two). I'm really not sure how these patterns could be presented to make them any more obvious.

The problem with wikihouding at AfD is also compounded by the fact that they would intentionally make bogus arguments and even outright lie in an attempt to discredit both myself and others. Numerous times I would cite a book as a reference and one of these editors would claim the book didn't actually say what it said or didn't contain what it actually contained.

--Tothwolf (talk) 22:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

@Blaxthos

I haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. To the best of my knowledge, I have never interacted with you outside of Misplaced Pages and if you have actual, verifiable evidence of any "off-wiki stalking and harassment" from myself I would ask that you present it instead of making baseless ad hominem claims. Furthermore, your continued claims of canvassing and votestaking are beginning to get very close to libel territory.

I personally don't really care what sort of disputes you've had with others surrounding all the controversy with bash.org and the volunteer userbase leaving the site and I have absolutely no connection with your bash.org troubles or connections with any of the other online quote database sites that you seem to have a strong dislike for.

As far as I'm aware, the only major interaction I've ever had with Blaxthos was with this AfD. It was well documented there that Blaxthos had a very direct conflict of interest with articles related to bash.org and "competing" online quote database sites, many of which he nominated for AfD and others where he played a significant role during the AfD process.

--Tothwolf (talk) 19:59, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved Ncmvocalist

I'm technically inactive and I haven't looked at this request, but despite this, I want to note 2 things that may be relevant. (1) It is difficult to conduct a community discussion due to the fashion in which Tothwolf structures some of his comments. Regardless of the outcome of this request, can someone please please PLEASE teach/tell/make Tothwolf to habitually sign directly after his comment and get out of the habit of putting a signature 2 lines later? It's possibly fine during a statement, but it's impossibly distracting (and off-putting) during threaded discussions, be it at AN, ANI or talk pages, and there's only so much I'm ready to do in formatting at such discussions. (2) See Sept. ANI - particularly section 1.8.1 onwards. The discussion did not reach a conclusion as users kept bringing up more things later. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:57, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Juliancolton

I encourage ArbCom to accept this case. I've followed the activity related to the dispute over recent weeks and though I've remained entirely uninvolved, to the best of my knowledge, I don't see how an RFC will help in this case. Certain parties have violated behavioral restrictions on several occasions, and once a debate fails to resolve itself following several ANI threads, a review by the committee is likely the best way forward. Essentially agree with SoWhy and a couple others. –Juliancolton |  04:09, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved editor Blaxthos who had past interaction with Tothwolf

While not a party to this particular action in any form or fashion, I would like to add that I personally have been the victim of off-wiki stalking and harassment from Tothwolf based on an article content disagreement. I have witnessed him attempt to votestack and canvass, and have received threatening emails and messenger communications from him and his IRC pals. I also received notes from several notes from other uninvolved editors warning me not to get involved with Tothwolf at all due to their experiences with his harassment. While none of this is evidence of anything germane to this proceeding, it should serve as a cautionary tale when assessing the proper level of good faith and benefit of the doubt accorded to Tothwolf. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 19:05, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Preliminary decisions

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (7/1/0/0)

Temporary injunction (none)

Final decision (none yet)

All numbering based on /Proposed decision, where vote counts and comments are also available.

Principles

Findings of fact

Remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Enforcement

Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions

Log any block, restriction, ban or extension under any remedy in this decision here. Minimum information includes name of administrator, date and time, what was done and the basis for doing it.

Category: