Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 13:41, 17 November 2009

Fences and windows

Voice your opinion on this candidate (talk page) (45/3/3); Scheduled to end 21:07, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Nomination

Fences and windows (talk · contribs) – Fences and windows would, I think, make an excellent sysop. If you participate at AfD, you will already know his name, but for those who don't, a short introduction is in order.

Fences and windows has been with us since 27 December 2006. With a clean block log since then, over 15,000 edits at the time of typing, and having authored a range of fascinating and idiosyncratic articles of which my personal favourite is Underwater basket weaving, his main expertise is nevertheless at AfD rather than as a content contributor. I invite you to examine Fences and windows' contributions and satisfy yourself of the thoughtful, sane and sensible attitude he displays.

You'll also see that this is a user who is sometimes active in the more contentious areas of the encyclopaedia; he has participated in RFC/U, in DRV and so on. I think this is a huge net positive. I do sometimes disagree with Fences and Windows' opinion; but I can never find fault with his conduct.

For your convenience, here is a link to Soxred's tool.

I'm choosy about who to nominate for adminship, and I do this very rarely—it's been so long since the last time that my only previous nomination has almost retired from active editing in the meantime. I've been badgering Fences and windows to stand for adminship for some months and he has always previously declined, so I am delighted that at long last, I have permission to make this nomination.

I commend Fences and windows to the community. —S Marshall /_Cont 18:18, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Co-Nomination by Black Kite

I very rarely nominate for adminship but always try to make exceptions for what I believe are exceptional editors. I first encountered Fences and windows on deletion-related pages. Since I tend to lean slightly towards the "deletionist", we were often on opposing sides of debates, yet I was immediately impressed with the manner in which he calmly and logically explained his views on notability and other relevant issues, in stark contrast to many other editors who frequent these areas. Such communication with other editors is a vital tool for any administrator. He has a good background as a content contributor, and his activity at AfD, DRV and RFC means he has a good breadth of activity in project and admin-related areas. I agree with the nominator and believe he would make an excellent administrator.

Candidate, please indicate acceptance of the nomination here:

Accepted, thanks! Fences&Windows 20:55, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Questions for the candidate

Dear candidate, thank you for offering to serve Misplaced Pages as an administrator. It is recommended that you answer these optional questions to provide guidance for participants:

1. What administrative work do you intend to take part in?

A: Mainly areas to do with article deletion. I'm familiar with AfD and proposed deletions, and I've done some speedy deletion tagging. I'll always give a full rationale for AfD closures and otherwise explain my admin actions. Other than that, I plan to lend a hand with AIV and RPP and other areas that might have backlogs, but I'll tread carefully while learning the ropes.

2. What are your best contributions to Misplaced Pages, and why?

A: I've created or expanded quite a few articles, often in eclectic areas as S Marshall notes. Underwater basket weaving and Wound licking are two that I took early this year as I was getting more involved in Misplaced Pages from being stubs to B-class articles. Sex after pregnancy was written from scratch on request to replace an article on the topic that suffered from original research and a how-to tone. I revamped Starbucks, Human evolution, Tag (game) and others by removing original research, restructuring, and adding references. I've rescued around 200 articles from being proposed for deletion, expanding and improving the majority of them in the process. You can see more about my editing on my userpage here.

I've participated in quite a few debates at Articles for Deletion - finding sources is my most useful contribution there. My editing goes where the sources take me. I helped start the small but growing Article Incubator —though the real credit goes to Fritzpoll and GTBacchus— and I've helped draft a proposal, Misplaced Pages:Notability (news events), to help with the thorny and perennial problem of how to handle articles about events.

3. Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or have other users caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?

A: Sure, a few conflicts, they're hard to avoid if you're not a pure WikiGnome. Editing Misplaced Pages can be a little frustrating sometimes, but it's not exactly stressful. Usually things can be worked out pretty quickly on article or user talk pages, and maintaining a sense of humour helps. My one memorable run-in with sockpuppetry was quickly resolved with a couple of reports to SPI, and the editor took my advice and returned to contribute useful edits.

Optional question from Skomorokh

4. Have you ever edited from an account other than Fences and windows (talk · contribs)? If so, would you care to disclose the account(s) in question?

I registered an account under my real name, but I never used it. Fences&Windows 21:00, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

No worries; have you edited under any other accounts?  Skomorokh, barbarian  21:20, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

No others, just some IPs. Fences&Windows 00:30, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Additional optional questions from Spartaz

5. Please explain how you think our BLP policy should be applied to articles nominated for deletion?

A: The same as all articles that concern living people: rigorously. They need to be well sourced, balanced, and to avoid causing harm. Poorly sourced or unsourced material should be removed. Articles about living people that can't be sourced well or be written neutrally using the available reliable sources should be deleted. We should also be sensitive to the BLP policy while discussing articles concerning living people, particularly at AfD. BLP1E is often a consideration at AfD; unless that person is central to the event and the event is significant, BLP1E generally means we shouldn't have an article about them, though it doesn't preclude there being an article about the event (often the best solution to a BLP1E bio) or there being a section concerning them and the event in another article. WP:NOTSCANDAL, which refers to BLP, is also relevant to some articles nominated for deletion. Regarding the recent proposal to default to delete when there is no consensus over the notability of a living person, if WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:OR and WP:BLP are not concerns, I don't think a lack of consensus over Misplaced Pages:Notability (people) should override them. If I see no consensus yet I favour deletion, I'll add my arguments instead of closing as delete. Fences&Windows 00:30, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Additional optional questions from Royalbroil

6. I am not familiar with your work. I see you're familiar with deletion, so I have a question in that area for you. What would you do if you ran across this speedy deletion nominee? Is it eligible for speedy? What if it were a prod and enough time had elapsed? Royalbroil 01:00, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

A: Wow, this is like a school test! I don't think that A7 applies here, as the article makes a credible claim that he's a middling race car driver, especially as he beat a blue-linked driver in one season. Despite the lack of sources, it's not eligible for speedy. For prod, I think the news coverage of his racing career would be enough to deprod, e.g. . There's also substantial local coverage of him later on as the VP and co-owner with his brother of Scotty's Fashions; it's the same guy as that firm sponsored his Nascar career. Fences&Windows 02:35, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Additional optional questions from Beeblebrox

7. It's sometimes interesting to ask a candidate how they would respond to current or recent situations that have arisen at WP:ANI, so here's some recent "drama" related questions for you:

7a. Should there be some sort of "back door" made to permit banned or indefinitely blocked user to suggest changes they would like to see made to Misplaced Pages, with users or admins in good standing evaluating their proposals and making the changes if they are good ones? The idea being that this would discourage them from further disruption via socking. Does it make a difference if they were banned by the community, banned by arbcom, or indef blocked by an admin? (Note that I am not asking for a regurgitation of the banning/blocking policy, but rather your feelings on whether this is a good idea or not.)

7b. What would you do if you see a report of a mildly offensive username that has made a few edits that are not vandalism? What about a username that has words in it that you wouldn't use when talking to your grandmother, but which has not made any edits?

A:

Additional optional questions from Coffee

8. If you were to close an AFD, on a BLP, where there is no easily determined consensus how would you close it?

A.

9. What is your opinion on the current BLP policy, and what work have you done (if any) with BLPs?

A.

General comments

• Links for Fences and windows: Fences and windows (talk · contribs · deleted · count · AfD · logs · block log · lu · rfar · spi)
• Edit summary usage for Fences and windows can be found here.

Please keep discussion constructive and civil. If you are unfamiliar with the nominee, please thoroughly review Special:Contributions/Fences and windows before commenting.

Discussion

• I have stumbled across some further edits that I find a bit troubling. This series of edits during a deletion discussion added a lot of non-substantial information to the article. When the nominator removed much of it, F&W responded with a paragraph or so that read (at least to me, anyway) as quite defensive. However, as no one (other than the nom) had recommended keeping, Pastor Theo performed a non-admin closure, as "keep", before any further discussion of F&W's edits there took place, so it's hard to tell whether or not my gut feeling that this user tends to get defensive when challenged is right or wrong. I've experienced it myself, in an AFD, so I'm pretty sure I'm right about it, but I just thought these diffs were at least worth mentioning. Here's a link to the entire (short) deletion discussion. UA 11:31, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator.—S Marshall /_Cont 20:28, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
2. Easy and strong support, I watchlisted this the minute Marshall posted the link on F&W's tp as I wanted to be an early supporter. F&W is one of the most thoughtful editors I have come across. -SpacemanSpiff 20:30, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
3. Support - has some excellent contribs, seems friendly. — Oli Pyfan! 20:33, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
4. Absolutely. Rd232 20:37, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
5. Support: Great editor. Joe Chill (talk) 20:40, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
6. Support I think I have disagreed with F&W as often as agreed, but even when they are wrong it is for good reasons :). - 2/0 (cont.) 20:48, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
7. Support as co-nominator. Black Kite 20:53, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
8. Great candidate. Master&Expert (Talk) 21:01, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
9. Support Contrary to popular belief, I am always happy when I have the opportunity to support a self-proclaimed atheist at RfA. Keepscases (talk) 21:10, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
10. Strong support. Absolutely. Tan | 39 21:18, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
11. Support without hesitation. Crafty (talk) 21:28, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
12. Support Good contributor, with a good attitude. I think they would be a good mop-wielder. -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 21:30, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
13. Support. This contributor does a great job in facilitating cooperation with his editing. Location (talk) 21:48, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
14. Strong support This one falls under the "they weren't an admin already?" category. As the nominator said, Fences and windows is well-known to AfD regulars, and I support him based on my observations of him there. He's a terrific mainspace contributor in addition to his excellent work at AfD and with PROD and CSD – and a trustworthy longtime editor. Giving him the mop will absolutely be a benefit to the community. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 21:53, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
15. Support - A great editor, and I've participated in policy discussions with them and find their arguments reasonable. -- Atama頭 22:11, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
16. Support. Duh. Tim Song (talk) 22:16, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
17. Support. Absolutely. Sterling work— creating content, sourcing and improving articles coupled with sound grasp of policy.   pablo_hablo. 22:19, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
18. Support Without reservation. Hipocrite (talk) 22:59, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
19. Support. I too like what I've seen of this user. Deor (talk) 23:07, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
20. Support - trustworthy editor. PhilKnight (talk) 23:24, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
21. Support We've "bumped heads" occasionally, and each and every time I've come away with an appreciation for this editor's willingness to engage in meaningful discussion and for his acumen with matters dealing with policy, guideline, and process. He has my full suport. Schmidt, 23:35, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
22. Support I have never heard of you knowningly before, but you seem very qualified. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 23:37, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
23. Support A thoughtful editor, respected on both sides of the aisle at AfD. --Chris Johnson (talk) 23:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
24. Support. (triple edit-conflict) Have seen the candidate around, and the impressions have been positive. Reviewing the candidate's history, I was especially impressed with the AfD work (including deletion sorting). I trust the judgment of both the nominators, so I have no reservations here. IronGargoyle (talk) 23:40, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
25. Support I don't see any reason not to. Logan _Talk 23:51, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
26. Support Qualified. Sole Soul (talk) 00:01, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
27. Support his AfD record appears strong, and judging from his contributions I think that his rescue work, cleanup and sourcing meet my standards for contributions. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 00:54, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
28. Sure; I've disagreed with the candidate on numerous occasions, and while I'd appreciate if they would make better use of edit summaries, I've got no reason to believe they wouldn't handle the bit with particular care. –Juliancolton |  00:58, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
29. Strong support, yes. F&W is an excellent, experienced editor who gets it. JamieS93 01:17, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
30. Support. Fought the good fight on the Richard Gere gerbil issue. Obviously understands the importance of BLP. Crotchety Old Man (talk) 01:19, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
31. Support -- Maximillion Pegasus (talk) 01:27, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
32. Support. AfD is an important area of Misplaced Pages where the administrative tools make a major difference. Judging by the comments about him, F & W is probably one of Misplaced Pages's most seasoned editors in this area. My own experience with F & W has been very positive--in the deletion discussion we were in together, he worked hard to find verifiable references to substitute for the hate sites that were used as references for the article in question. Although the article was eventually judged unsalvageable and the references he found were not added, I was impressed with his reasoned analysis of the issues at hand and the labor he put into trying a new approach to this very heated discussion. AfD is a very contentious part of Misplaced Pages and it's difficult to always agree with a particular editor, but F & W should be good at making sensible decisions and keeping the heat down. Plus, I think F & W is one of Misplaced Pages's more modest top editors. --AFriedman (talk) 02:01, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
33. Support Fences and windows is a calm, reasonable and dedicated wikipedian working on various projects for the benefit of wikipedia who has lots of experience and knowledge of wikipedia and its various policies and guidelines.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 02:10, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
34. Support Spartaz 02:38, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
35. Support Well thought out response to my question and spent the time to research the answer. Once you get to be an experienced admin, it gets so easy to just hit delete. We need admins who spend some time to analyze marginal cases. Royalbroil 03:31, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
36. Support I very often disagree with Fences & Windows, however, "The bearer of a slighted message, cannot be justified in considering himself offended, if he be treated with politeness; because the character of his friend is a mere matter of opinion, upon which two very estimatable gentlemen may differ, and it must always be a censurable intolerance, which would attempt to force upon one man's mind, even the correct opinion of another." Gigs (talk) 04:10, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
37. Support. Why not? -FASTILY 04:20, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
38. Support - You may want to work on XfD stuff per the opposes below, but I've seen enough good work to support. Keep it up. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 05:38, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
39. Strong Support You may need to work something out on the AfD, but you're good enough to support Misplaced Pages in the near future. Good luck! - --_{Boeing7107isdelicious|SPRiCh miT meineN PiloteN} 08:01, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
40.  Support Deo Volente & Deo Juvente, Fences and windows. — Mikhailov Kusserow (talk) 08:27, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
41. Support I have no reason to believe that F&W is unwilling to learn from mistakes and I think A Nobody's examples will serve as a reminder he will learn from. The only negative thing about this candidate as far as I can see is their signature. I really don't like sigs that use a different background color, it makes them stick out in discussions. But that's just my personal opinion and certainly no reason to oppose ;-) Regards SoWhy 11:10, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
42. Support. A fine addition to the admin corps. I already was impressed with his AfD work, but I took to the time to review the areas mentioned in the opposes. None of the discussions mentioned concern me, and I quite appreciate the editor's attempts to the strike a moderate tone at this essay on AFD participation. Should have the tools. Xymmax _{So let it be done} 12:03, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
43. Support No problems here. A8UDI 12:35, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
44. Solid candidate. - Dank (push to talk) 12:51, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
45. Support - I first encountered Fences and windows after seeing an edit that led me to think that this user was a "shoot first and ask questions later" deletionist. However, after an amicable follow-up discussion I realized that my initial judgment had been wrong (although that one edit had been a mistake). Based on my subsequent observations and review of the some contributions history, F&W is a careful and helpful contributor who would I expect would use admin tools responsibly and productively. --Orlady (talk) 13:12, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose per User:A_Nobody/RfA#RfA_Standards. On the positive side of things, the candidate has never been blocked, does have some barnstars on his userpage, and has made some reasonable arguments in AfDs as at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/German-Libyan relations, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Avatar (Ultima) (although I said to keep, and he said to merge, this merge was expressed in a reasonable manner), Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Belgium–Mexico relations, and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gamorrean (2nd nomination). With that said, the candidate has also made some frustratingly weak arguments elsewhere: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Rusty Ryan (2nd nomination) (the delete "vote" was enough to make someone say to "keep" per the candidate's delete...), Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lamia (Vampire Folk lore) (a clear "no consensus" discussion in which the candidate did not follow WP:PRESERVE, redlinking in this case was simply unreasonable; I can respectfully disagree, but in one like this I cannot trust that judgment as reflective of the actual value of the content under discussion), Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of honorific titles in popular music (2nd nomination) (again, not following WP:BEFORE, WP:PRESERVE, etc., i.e. not getting that deletion is an extreme last resort), Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Herman Toothrot (no reason/rationale provided, just a vote), Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Elaine Marley (a WP:PERNOM style "vote"), etc. Some of these delete votes seem to against common sense even and are dug in without a willingness to accept a compromise and that is particularly disheartening. This candidate is someone who at times I had hopes/faith in, but more so than anything else, really lost me over the "Lamia" article and the overreation of quiting the ARS over it is not the kind of calmness and composure I look for in admins. I hope to see more of the first few positive examples I list above that would maybe change my mind down the road, but I do not have confidence in reasonability and calmness at this time. Sincerely, --A Nobody 21:57, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

   Comment (please do not count this against F&W as "badgering opposers") I disagree with every of the bad examples you mention. Also, I find it unfair to judge the candidate's AfD work as if he was the closing admin - he was an editor at that time, and he is entitled to an opinion. I understand very well that you hold a grudge because of the Lamia article, it was you who tried to save it. But this should not kill an RfA.--Pgallert (talk) 09:20, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

   • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Rusty Ryan (2nd nomination) "mentioned in passing" is a perfectly valid delete argument
   • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lamia (Vampire Folk lore) "already covered elsewhere" together with "not a plausible search " is a perfectly valid delete argument
   • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of honorific titles in popular music (2nd nomination) unsourced, not notable, not definable - what else is he supposed to bring forward? WP:PRESERVE does not mean everything has to be kept.
   • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Herman Toothrot - first vote after delete nomination; he offers a different verdict (merge) and extends this to two other articles. So his submission does definitely add value to the discussion.
   • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Elaine Marley - one of the two articles similar to Herman Toothrot. I assume he put his "merge" verdict to keep consistency with the other, related discussion. No need to repeat the statement in my view.

   We have no other way of knowing how he might close AFDs then by looking at how he approached them as an editor, i.e. what kinds of arguments persuaded him in these discussions. With regards to "Rusty Ryan", no, we are not convinced that mentioned only in passing is a valid reason to delete (red link). If this character from a major film series is WP:V in multiple WP:RS than he is at least worthy of a redirect rather than a redlink. For "Lamia", "already covered elsewhere" is a reason to see what we can merge, again not to just remove everything from the edit history. As far as the validity as a search term. For the "honorific titles," the article is indeed sourced, and WP:JNN is never a compelling reason to delete. Well, it is to whoever created the article and per User:T-rex/essays/the more redirects the better. What it really comes down to is that I only participate in so many AfDs and only argue to keep so many as well, i.e. only for articles that are slavageable in some capacity per WP:BEFORE and WP:PRESERVE. Therefore, anyone who says to redlink rather than transwiki, merge, or redirect even an article I say to keep, I cannot trust and do not want to close AfDs reasonably as presumably they are not adequately considering other alternatives to redlinking. I fully believe that Misplaced Pages:Editors matter and barring we are discussing something libelous, a hoax, or a copyright violation, if any reliable primary or secondary sources exist, we usually have some other alternative than deletion. I simply will not support administrators who do not demonstrate a willingness to consider such alternatives. Moreover, once ANY editor in good standing requests more time to improve an article under discussion that is not a hoax, copy vio, or libelous, then we expect the community to show them the courtesy to do so on a project that does not have a deadline. That is the real meaning of WP:AGF. We do not say, "Well, I don't think it's improveable, so tough." No, we say, "Okay, take a few months and let's see what you can do!" Misplaced Pages does not exist only for what we care about after all. No one should be an admin who would want any established editor to just stop work on something that is not legally damaging instead of continuing to improve it. If someone is willin to give it a whirl, we must give them the best opportunity to do so, not toss out some arbitrary seven day deadline on a volunteer project. Not force them to start over. Not declare without any real certainty that the article can "never" be improved. Admins must be considerate to other editors in that regard. Sincerely, --A Nobody 13:24, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

2. I strongly oppose this nomination, even though I normally simply sit out these things. I definitely share A Nobody's concerns, as the arguments I've seen from this user at AFD's are simply weak, and I haven't been impressed with how s/he supports opinions proffered there. I'm particularly unimpressed by this "keep" recommendation, which offered no real rationale other than basically "it's really not hurting anyone." Also, this rationale, where s/he argues for keeping an article on minor children, with a one line rationale. It's not just that I disagree with these recommendations, it's that I find the judgment behind them very questionable. Enough so that I bookmarked this redlink, which I rarely do, just in case this person ever stood for adminship. UA 01:43, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

   I should point out that at MFDs for userspace, "no harm" is considered a valid, albeit weak, argument, unlike at AFD. Gigs (talk) 04:03, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

   As I don't frequently comment at XfDs, I'll cede that point to you. Even still, someone who would be so glib about keeping an article on minor children does not have the judgment necessary to be an admin, at least in my view. Clearly many disagree with me, though, and F&W seems to be headed to an easy pass. I hope s/he surprises me. UA 06:06, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

3. Oppose, per User_talk:Fences_and_windows/Archive_7#Confused. Editor repeatedly accused another editor of badgering, of hypocritically did the same thing with other editors. Seems like double standards. Plus wavering views per ] Ikip (talk) 13:41, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Neutral

1. Neutral just oh so very slightly leaning support - A Nobody states a very good point, however I can't oppose. But I can't support at the moment either. Smithers (Talk) 02:30, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
2. Neutral - Until my questions are answered. --Coffee // have a cup // ark // 09:16, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
3. Neutral - Like the editor's contributions, but would like to see more New Page Patrolling (currently only 225 patrolled), and no real history of vandalism fighting. Shadowjams (talk) 10:26, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

   Okay, I know that I opposed and all, but I'm curious how patrolling X amount of new pages and/or vandalism fighting particularly prepares one to be an administrator? UA 10:51, 17 November 2009 (UTC)