Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:05, 28 November 2009

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

Archives: Index, Index, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252Auto-archiving period: 1 day

Archives

Index –index– October 28, 2001 – April 12, 2004 April 16, 2004 – August 23, 2004 August 28, 2004 – December 8, 2004 December 9, 2004 – March 23, 2005 March 23, 2005 – July 24, 2005 July 26, 2005 – September 9, 2005 September 9, 2005 – September 24, 2005 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 – late May 2006 May 24 – July 2006 July 2006 – August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 – Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 – December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 – Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 – Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007– Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2–5, 2007 March 5–11, 2007 March 11 – April 3, 2007 April 2 – May 2, 2007 May 3 – June 7, 2007 June 9 – July 4, 2007 July 13 – August 17, 2007 August 17 – September 11, 2007 September 14 – October 7, 2007 October 28 – December 1, 2007 December 2 – December 16, 2007 December 15 – January 4, 2008 January 4 – January 30, 2008 January 30 – February 28, 2008 February 28 – March 11, 2008 March 9 – April 18, 2008 April 18 – May 30, 2008 May 30 – July 27, 2008 July 26 – October 4, 2008 October 4 – November 12, 2008 November 10 – December 10, 2008 December 5 – December 25, 2008 December 25 – January 16, 2009 January 15 – January 27, 2009 January 26 – February 10, 2009 February 8 – March 18, 2009 March 18 – May 6, 2009 May 5 – June 9, 2009 June 10 – July 11, 2009 July 12 – August 25, 2009 August 26 – October 3, 2009 October 4 – November 20, 2009 November 20 – December 21, 2009 December 22, 2009 – January 25, 2010 January 22, 2010 – February 22, 2010 February 22, 2010 – March 17, 2010 March 17, 2010 – April 9, 2010 April 11, 2010 – April 24, 2010 April 23, 2010 – May 12, 2010 May 10, 2010 – June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 – June 26, 2010 June 26, 2010 – July 22, 2010 July 22, 2010 – August 23, 2010 August 4, 2010 – August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 – September 14, 2010 September 13, 2010 – October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 – November 8, 2010 November 8, 2010 – November 21, 2010 November 21, 2010 – December 6, 2010 December 6, 2010 – December 22, 2010 December 21, 2010 – January 17, 2011 January 16, 2011 – February 10, 2011 February 6, 2011 – March 19, 2011 March 16, 2011 – March 26, 2011 March 26, 2011 – April 22, 2011 April 22, 2011 – May 16, 2011 May 17, 2011 – June 9, 2011 June 10, 2011 – July 1, 2011 July 1, 2011 – July 15, 2011 July 16, 2011 – July 26, 2011 July 26, 2011 – August 15, 2011 August 14, 2011 – August 23, 2011 August 21, 2011 – August 31, 2011 August 30, 2011 – September 7, 2011 September 4, 2011 – September 25, 2011 September 26, 2011 – October 19, 2011 October 16, 2011 – November 5, 2011 November 4, 2011 – November 12, 2011 November 11, 2011 – November 24, 2011 November 24, 2011 – December 6, 2011 December 3, 2011 – December 14, 2011 December 10, 2011 – December 16, 2011 (RFC about the Stop Online Piracy Act) December 15, 2011 – December 30, 2011 December 27, 2011 – January 9, 2012 January 9, 2012 – January 18, 2012 January 17, 2012 – January 30, 2012 January 28, 2012 – February 12, 2012 February 7, 2012 – February 25, 2012 February 19, 2012 – March 4, 2012 February 27, 2012 – March 18, 2012 March 17, 2012 – April 2, 2012 March 31, 2012 – April 13, 2012 April 12, 2012 – April 18, 2012 April 18, 2012 – April 26, 2012 April 26, 2012 – May 6, 2012 May 2, 2012 – May 22, 2012 May 19, 2012 – June 9, 2012 June 4, 2012 – June 20, 2012 June 18, 2012 – June 28, 2012 June 26, 2012 – July 12, 2012 July 3, 2012 – July 22, 2012 July 19, 2012 – July 29, 2012 July 25, 2012 – August 9, 2012 August 7, 2012 – August 30, 2012 August 29, 2012 – September 13, 2012 September 13, 2012 – September 27, 2012 September 26, 2012 – October 5, 2012 September 24, 2012 – October 20, 2012 October 9, 2012 – October 31, 2012 October 29, 2012 – November 19, 2012 November 17, 2012 – December 5, 2012 December 2–15, 2012 December 15–28, 2012 December 24, 2012 – January 12, 2013 January 13–31, 2013 February 1–10, 2013 February 11–28, 2013 March 1–16, 2013 March 17–27, 2013 March 28 – April 6, 2013 April 6–19, 2013 April 19 – May 3, 2013 April 25 – May 8, 2013 May 6–19, 2013 May 18–30, 2013 May 27 – June 16, 2013 June 17–30, 2013 June 27 – July 30, 2013 July 31 – August 4, 2013 August 4–12, 2013 August 13–27, 2013 August 28 – September 4, 2013 September 5–10, 2013 September 11–22, 2013 September 24 – October 6, 2013 October 7–16, 2013 October 17–27, 2103 October 28 – November 6, 2013 November 7–19, 2013 November 20–27, 2013 November 28 – December 5, 2013 December 6–24, 2013 December 25–30, 2013 December 31, 2013 – January 14, 2014 January 15–24, 2014 January 25–29, 2014 January 30 – February 10, 2014 Archives not yet dated: 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 This manual archive index may be out of date. Future archives: 184 185 186

This page has archives. Sections older than 1 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

http://wikimediafoundation.org/Support_Wikipedia2

Couldn't hurt to have a link to wikipedia:Misplaced Pages and User:Jimbo_Wales on that page, so people can read about what they are donating to if they reached the page from somewhere else. CompuHacker (talk) 08:05, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

And another thing...

Additionally, I really wish you/staff/someone would take the account restrictions off wikimediafoundation.org. Either by just quietly opening registrations or lowering the approval standards on the request page to near non-existent levels. CompuHacker (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:07, 27 November 2009 (UTC).

Please block and ban LKD

A few days ago user:LKD claimed Bertram to deny the genocide commited by Nazi Germany (verbatim: 'Berti denials the holocaust"). That's not chicken feed and LKD was pressed to deliver suitable diff links to evidence this outrageous allegation but never furnished proof (and never ever will be able to provide a diff link for there simply are no diff links). (Meanwile they actually bring forward the 'argument' he who doesn't deny the holocaust on wikipedia must be a holocaust denier because he avoids to deny the holocaust and therfore ist to bee expulsed from wikipedia. Bravos!)

But back to topic. Forced reelection as a sanction for such a defamatory statement is in my humble opinion not good enough by half. LKD is in a very tight corner. But nevertheless LKD's defamation is an undreamt scandal, LKD still isn't blocked and banned. Until now no admin on de.wikipedia.org screwed up his courage.

Well, I'm not here to have a heart-to-heart talk and I don't even say love me, love my dog. But Attention, please. I can't but invite you and the Wikimedia Foundation Inc. to please block and ban LKD.

Yours sincerly

--Bertram calling (talk) 08:29, 27 November 2009 (UTC) ) (that's me: Bertram)

• Dear Bert, I'm afraid that this page here isn't the right place to air your grievances, perhaps you might want to go back to the German Language Misplaced Pages to file a proper complaint there as this here is the English Language Misplaced Pages, please note that administrator(s) on either side generally has no cross-version sanctioning powers. Correct me I'm wrong, anyone else got any thoughts to add? --Dave 08:56, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Dear Dave, I guess Wikimedia Foundation Inc. as an operating company has got cross-version sanctioning powers in a severe case like this. --Bertram calling (talk) 09:28, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

• I have to say that you are absolutely right about it but this place is English Misplaced Pages, your complaint should thus be directed to Wikimedia instead, don't you think so? Or do you think I'm not trying to help you? There are proper channels and procedures to do thing(s), you don't go straight to the President of the United States to complain if someone in your town calls someone an idiot, right? --Dave 09:44, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

• Dear Dave, thanx for trying to help me. I would appreciate it very much if I would volunteer to direct this complaint to Wikimedia. I must admit that I haven't got the faintest idea how and whereto address my complaint. Thanks a lot in advance. Sincerly --Bertram calling (talk) 10:13, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

• Look no further than at the "A Wikimedia project" icon located at the left bottom of your browser's page, I'm sure you'll be slapping your forehead now for missing it all this while you had been searching high and low for it, eh? Go there and ask for help, have fun! --Dave 10:30, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

• Interesting point. You mean, wikipedia is the wrong address for placing such things? But the donors give their money mostly to create the encyclopedia wikipedia, not wikimedia. And who you think is the right address for complaints about vandalism as this? Regards Mutter Erde 78.55.247.48 (talk) 12:48, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Please note that Bertram has been banned following community consenus on de.wp. --Rosentod (talk) 12:57, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Is that perm? I hope it is. (Jew here)--Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ (talk) 13:05, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is. --Rosentod (talk) 13:12, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Good.--Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ (talk) 15:09, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

an international Supreme Content panel ?

You might want to read this NY Times Op-ed by Evgeny Morozov. He seems to propose an independent panel of philosophers, journalists, scientists and experts to deal with content issues such as those recently with the Wolfgang Werle case. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 15:04, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Its an interesting piece, though less-than flattering to WP.The suggestion to have an independent panel might have its uses, but it would not address the Werle case. Is he advocating that this panel decide when WP should follow local laws and when it shouldn´t? If it follows some, such as Germany's privacy laws, wouldn't it then be open to arguments from other laws, including Thai laws about their king? If we were to have such a panel, I could see it for resolving content disputes in specialized fields, although we have arbitration committees for this purpose. If WP hasnt followed newspapers and periodicals in having a similar editorial board, it is because we are international and most traditional journal still follow a more local mindset.Thelmadatter (talk) 16:42, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I think it is a pretty offensive piece, actually. He acknowledges on the one hand that Wikipedians produced 60 pages of argument about this case, and boldly insults the participants of that debate by claiming that our process amounts to "the favorite basement project of anonymous 13-year-olds." He claims (correctly) that such decisions are too much and too important to be made unilaterally by one person (even if it is me :-) ), but fails to notice that I had absolutely nothing to do with the Wolfgang Werle decision - or hundreds of other decisions made thoughtfully here every day without me even knowing about it. (What does he suppose people were arguing about for 60 pages? It certainly wasn't about how to convince me of anything, since I don't think anyone would suggest that it is or should be up to me to make detailed content decisions of that type.)

None of that reflects well on his suggestion that we find a board of "experts" to overrule community consensus.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:06, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

It is certainly overstated for effect, particularly the 13 year old bit. But I'd say the rest pretty much hits the mark of showing up the downside of Misplaced Pages's remarkable success. Thankfully he doesn't make the normal error that critics make when they try to combine the "wikipedia is chaotic, and irresponsible" line with "it's all a sinister ploy by control-freak Jimbo to distort knowledge to his favoured version". But beyond that there is a bit of a scattergun approach to it. I'd say the question of responsibility is at the heart of it. Misplaced Pages tends to work best on fairly popular subjects - there's enough knowledgeable people there to correct errors and enough of a cross-spectrum to eliminate the worst biases. On lower interest stuff, it is hit and miss. It may be written by an expert(of whatever age) or it may have been written or changed by a moron, or a fringe nutter (who may be 13, but may equally be 31). However, the other problem is accountability. Most publications are accountable - to the laws of their land - to the laws of libel - to the tastes of the reader/customer - to the desire of the writer to retain professional credibility - and to the ethics of the owner/editor/publisher. Misplaced Pages tends to be written by the anonymous/pseudonymous for whom their are no effective external consequences. Further, there are few internal ones either - sure we ban the worst BLP carefrees - but there is no editor-in-chief saying "I don't care if that's legal - we're not going there". Anti-censorship campaigners may think the German State's "clean start" doctrine is evil (I might even be persuaded to agree) but I'm a lot more comfortable with such decisions being made by a democratically accountable German legislature and judiciary rather than by "whoever turns up" on wikipedia. It is easy to pontificate when you face neither the consequences nor accountability for your decision. PS Jimmy, why do you put "experts" in scare quotes? If that betrays your contempt for expertise, then I am more than a little concerned.--Scott Mac (Doc) 18:01, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I have no contempt for expertise! I'm actually quite elitist in my outlook in that regard. I just don't think every invocation of the word 'expert' indicates a real desire for genuine expertise.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:27, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

I too think that the piece is not meant to be offensive, nor should be interpreted like that. The problem I have is that this panel is either gonna be a 24hour job for people, and help issues before they get to court, or can't stop things from reaching court. I also think that court is actually a good thing, because it is the only way any of these issues are ever gonna be settled in international law. Still, much as the Foundation has an Advisory Board, there might be something to be said for a Content Advisory Board. Perhaps we shouldn't dismiss suggestions people make too quickly ? —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:24, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

A content board is unworkable, even if desirable. You'd have every contentious article at it every three minutes. OTRS receives dozens of valid complaints a day, the board would too. No sooner had they ruled on an article than someone would make some other changes (it is a wiki) and you'd be back to square one. What wikipedia needs is two things: 1) a properly worked out code of content ethics (guidelines that spell out "do no harm") 2) a willingness to consider "maintainability" as a key principle when living people and real organisations are at stake. Yes, this article could be written neutrally, but given what we know of our system, the interest in the article, and the nature of the subject, will it be maintained in a form that's fair to the subject? Sure, we can't guarantee that for any article - however, there are some articles where we can almost guarantee the opposite. In such cases, we need to reduce the risk of "unfair treatment of the subject" - sometimes permanent semi-protection will do that sufficiently - sometimes it needs more, perhaps "semi-protection plus" (only regular editors with a proven record of clue can edit this) - and sometimes deletion is appropriate (wikipedia's current systems can't handle this subject without unacceptable risk of unfair treatment). The problem at the moment is we don't distinguish what we can in theory do fairly, from what we are very unlikely to actually do fairly.--Scott Mac (Doc) 15:05, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Your user page

(en-0) Why don't you protect your user page? There are a lot of vandalism. --79.26.164.143 (talk) 20:51, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Lot of people watch this page and Jimbo is wayyy too trusting.. :) - 4twenty42o (talk) 20:56, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

1,940 reasons why. Darrenhusted (talk) 21:59, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

• You mean this vandal? 78.55.51.15 (talk) 22:14, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Jimbo doesn't protect his user page because he actually believes in the wiki process, encourages others to edit his user page, and genuinely hopes and expects others will make positive contributions to his user page. He also recognizes that vandalism is easily reverted. —Finell 09:39, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Also, Jimbo has one essential role for the duration of his association with Misplaced Pages - one that no-one else can ever fulfill; he is a lightning conductor for vandalism, trolls and SPA's. They get drawn to this page, and vandalise it in the certainty that it will be seen by a large audience... Of course, being typical vandalising troll SPA's they don't realise that the large audience means the edits will be very quickly reverted and get them warned/blocked. Bless them, and copper sheathed Jimbo. LessHeard vanU (talk) 09:49, 28 November 2009 (UTC)