Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:29, 30 December 2005

POV?

Is this POV or is it inherit in the subject?

It's certainly inherent in the subject. "Pathological skeptic" or "pseudoskeptic" is sometimes used describe errors, but more commonly it's hurled as an insult during a flamewar (similar to how "pseudoscientist" is often used either as insult or as clinical description.) Ah, here's an example, talk:scientific_skepticism --Wjbeaty 08:26, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm. The Anome deleted the definition entirely, replacing it with nothing. Very interesting. Is this the first move in a reversion fight? When someone calls me a "hypocrit" I know what they mean. But when they call me a "pseudoskeptic," what does that term mean? Right now Misplaced Pages gives no clues. The term does have a specific meaning, see Truzzi. --Wjbeaty 10:11, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know what this means:

"skeptic groups who apply the label of "Pathological Science" to fields which their advocates consider may better be described as protoscience"

Every advocate of anything called a pseudoscience by someone else, disagrees with that label. That's the point of "pseudoscience" - pseudoscientists also call themselves scientists and their opponents call them pseudoscientists. So this part of the sentence is vacuous. The reason is its vagueness. Could we have concrete examples of pseudoskepticism? --Hob Gadling 10:03, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

Blame RJFJR who added that phrase "their advocates" (possibly attempting to make it POV in favor of the skeptic side.) My original statement was about skeptics who mis-label a genuinely protoscientific field as fake science; as "pseudoscience." If a field of research can honestly be described as protoscience, then it's highly unscientific to exaggerate its flaws by labeling it as pseudoscience. So what's "protoscience?" As I've seen the word used, whenever a field of research is pursued by degreed scientists in an academic setting, yet it's not a legitimate science (it's unproven and controversial,) then it's not fake science or "pseudoscience." Instead it falls under the definition of "protoscience:" perhaps it will eventually become a valid field, or perhaps not. This is distinct from "pseudoscience" where non-scientists advocating some claim will try to persuade their audience by dishonestly using scientific jargon, by wearing white lab coats, awarding themselves false academic degrees, etc. Example: creationism is pseudoscience, it's religion dressed up in scientific clothing with intent to deceive. On the other hand, "cold fusion" is protoscience, it's still studied by scientists in university departments and R&D companies. Another example: the parapsychology research which takes place in a university psychology department and which gets published in peer-reviewed journals is "protoscience," but if similar research is performed by highly biased New Age believers who commonly indulge in selection of evidence and who impose no proper controls, then they're practicing pretend-science or "pseudoscience."

But all this is inherently POV. "fields which might be better described as protoscience": Who decides this? Why is our opinion better than those of "skeptics who mis-label a genuinely protoscientific field as fake science"? By the same reasoning those you call "pseudoskeptics" can claim the are genuinely protoskeptics. The whole article needs rewriting along the lines that "group A considers group B pseudoscientists, therefore group B and C, who disagree, consider group A pseudoskeptics" and not "group A considers group B pseudoscientists, therefore group A are pseudoskeptics". I'll try soon. --Hob Gadling 14:32, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

"Who decides this?" Honest and unbiased people can decide, based on the meaning of "pseudoscience" and "protoscience." For example, if supporters of a certain belief embark on a search for supporting evidence while rejecting contrary evidence, yet they adopt the trappings of science... that's science in name only: pseudoscience. But if professional researchers in academia decide to investigate a controversial claimed anomaly (bigfoot, paranormal, etc.), and they rigorously adhere to the methods of science, then they're working outside of normal science (since science operates by replication and concensus.) They're doing "protoscience," science which is not yet replicated nor accepted by the scientific community. --Wjbeaty 20:06, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

That's a laugh. "Honest and unbiased people can decide" - and the one who decides who is honest and unbiased is? You? Please think for a bit. The world out there is full of people who think they are honest and unbiased, but call each other dishonest and biased. This article is your POV. I call you extremely biased (which is not a fault in itself, but not recognizing it is). I don't make any claims about your honesty though. --Hob Gadling July 4, 2005 22:26 (UTC)

"The whole article needs rewriting" Nah, just add your part. The article first needs to clearly define what "pseudoskeptic" means. As with the term "pseudoscience," it's irrelevant whether it is used as a clinical term by skeptical authors, or used as a derogatory term during a flamewar. (Heh. The target of such insults would probably prefer to erase the term from WP, but then to be fair, we would also have to erase the term "pseudoscience.")--Wjbeaty 20:06, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

No, just adding to the article doesn't NPOV it. It needs to be written in a neutral manner through out. "Some scientific pseudoskeptics hold that it is better to disbelieve a correct assertion and to believe an incorrect one." is not neutral, and is probably factually incorrect if you're talking about Randi and Sagan. And since this is a modern issue, why are all the cites of historical sciences? Is it because mentioning cold fusion and homopathy doesn't make your case as well? And what about the historical cases like N-Rays?--Prosfilaes 23:28, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

William Beaty, a while ago on your site I read an article which explained about pahtological skepticism, and gave examples of a ship that savages couldn't see until they had touched it and savages in africa who couldn't comprehend the advanced geometry of a camcorder until they touched it. This ecompasses TWO different states, pathological skepticism, but also another effect that I can't rmember the name of. When an artist draws a line and leaves a break - the viewer's mind fills in the break in the line by continuing the line with the line on either side.

It is then possible that somebody subconciously could not beleive in something of a geometry so advanced that even if they did see it, their mind would refuse to comprehened it, thus filling it in with the surrounding understood geometry. Not only would the person have not seen it, but also have no recollection of ever seeing it. What is this phenomenon called? Are there any other examples of this type of thing around? --someone

Fun; my computer trashed my detailed criticism, and I don't have time to rewrite it. But you quoting from and linking to people, but you never name them. You misrepresent their arguments; I don't think any of them would characterize their position as it's good to believe in false theories. Furthermore, this is a big list of successful scientific theories, but you never list the failed theories (which is the whole point of that quote from Sagan.) You also never mention any of the theories which "pseudoskeptics" are actually arguing against, perhaps becuase mentioning homopathy and astrology and alien abductions and cold fusion would hurt the case you're building.--Prosfilaes 21:07, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I added NPOv, since that seems more appropriat than saying that it is "controversial". Bubba73 (talk) 21:08, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Article abuse

The user Prosfilaes has attempted to suppress information regarding the diagnosis and treatment of pseudoskepticism. In so doing, he used the dominant intimidating tactic of calling it 'complete crap', indicating that he himself is a pseudoskeptic with dominant personality disorder, which in turn means that he is attempting to prevent people from understanding him and people like him. The behavior of suppressing scientific information to avoid accountability for one's character has no place here. I therefore move that Prosfilaes be banned. I would normally recommend that he merely be given a warning, but dominant personality disorder is genetic (and therefore unchanging), and people that have it are typically very stubborn in the assertion of their dominance

So you're diagnosing people from incredibly limited interaction? That's completely bogus; no competent psychologist would try diagnose someone they've never meet or had significant interaction with. The attitude that genetic disorders are unchangable is absurd, and the leap to conclude that this so-called "dominant personality disorder" (if it exists as at all) is completely genetic is also absurd--few psychological disorders are 100% genetic, and most have very strong environmental factors.

If this is scientific information that is acceptable in Misplaced Pages (that is published, and preferably in something credible), why do you provide a cite? Where was this published? For example, how did anyone find out that it can be cured by castration? Given the rarity of castration, it seems highly unlikely that anyone could have a sample of even a half-dozen pseudoskeptics that have been castrated. This information doesn't pass the smell test, and seriously needs some evidence that it's not personal research (or personal nonsense, IMO.) --Prosfilaes 7 July 2005 07:36 (UTC)

I agree with Prosfilaes. Our anonymous contributor is trying to spread his own POV, which is that certain people are villains. His motivation is probably that they debunked some of his cherished beliefs, but that's just a hypothesis of mine. As is is, this article is not an encyclopedia article but a polemic diatribe. His above attempt to have people banned just because they disagree with him and remove his rants, shows that he is not a position to criticise anybody for their behaviour. --Hob Gadling July 7, 2005 14:32 (UTC)

Prosfilaes and Hob Gadling have again proven the truth of my words with their very replies by using intimidating / derogatory statements to blindly discredit the information that I have given and thus distract from it's logic and omnipresent empirical proof. Prosfilaes uses the intimidating / discrediting false-portrayal tactic of calling my statements 'personal nonsense', and calling my recommendation for his banning 'trying to silence critics due to lack of evidence (paraphrased, from the history; it is also rather funny because he is projecting his own behavior of discrediting his opponents (me) on to myself, like the little children that say 'I know you are but what am I'; I have no problem with people trying to honestly challenge the LOGIC or EVIDENCE of my statements (which by the way does not include deliberate strawman misinterpretation, in case you were getting any ideas) )'. Hob Gadling uses the intimidating / discrediting false-portrayal tactic of calling my statements 'personal POV (paraphrased)', 'polemic diatribe', 'ranting (paraphrased)', and 'the result of personal resentment (paraphrased)', and calling my recommendation for banning Prosfilaes 'the result of disagreement with personal beliefs (paraphrased)'. Wow Hob, that's FIVE blatant attempts to deceptively discredit my statements and thus distract from their logic, all in a short paragraph. You're on a role. That indicates that Hob Gadling is obviously a person of innate dominant personality disorder and a pseudoskeptic, who is obviously trying to suppress scientific information to prevent people from understanding him and thus holding him accountable, as Prosfilaes has already shown himself to be. Such behavior has no place in the composition of an encyclopedia. I therefore move that both Prosfilaes and Hob Gadling be banned from wikipedia, unless of course they are castrated, after which they can be trusted not to do such behavior. As for proof of the truth of my statements, the proof is everywhere, as I have shown in Prosfilaes's and Hob Gadling's very responses. It is a known and verified fact that testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, and particularly the dihydrotestosterone receptors in the brain cause dominant behavior, and the psychological information that I have given can be verified in the majority of science-related debates. Regarding the first anonymous reply, I didn't say that dominant personality disorder is 100% genetic, but it IS sufficiently unchangeable (without the direct neurochemical treatments of castration or anti-androgen drugs), that environmental factors may as well be ignored for treatment purposes.

It's not good enough that it be obvious, it should be published. See Misplaced Pages:No_original_research. That's official policy. If it's been verified, then please provide a cite. (And, BTW, the normal writing style on Misplaced Pages talk pages permits the use of paragraphs; both the replies above Hob's are mine.) --Prosfilaes 9 July 2005 09:25 (UTC)

Sorry, I first didn't recognize you as a troll, Mr. 216. My mistake. You sounded so much like a serious crackpot at first... --Hob Gadling 18:07, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

NPOVing

This articles is a quagmire of opinion. I find it very difficult to make the "Scientific pseudoskepticism" section neutral, and I am close to suggesting that the whole article be deleted for unNPOVability. It would be easier if there were a universally accepted name for the people who call others "pseudoskeptics". Maybe "zetetics", as Marcello Truzzi suggested? Then one could used phrases like "according to zetetics..." But I think it doesn't really fit. --Hob Gadling July 7, 2005 15:02 (UTC)

This article is not completely without merit and shouldn't be deleted. Many of the external links are actually pretty interesting. The problem lies in the wording and POV. Maybe we could move the article to some other name... - Haukurth 22:02, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

As with the word "pseudoscience," pseudoskepticism is in general use and needs a entry in WP, but the present article has become a morass of opinion and should be totally rewritten. E.g. I've never heard the term "scientific pseudoskepticism" used before. There are no google hits for it. I believe that the term is a personal creation of that author, i.e. is purely an individual opinion and is used nowhere but in this WP entry, and can be safely removed. --Wjbeaty 01:33, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

I think the article needs fundamental rewriting, as the terms look as if they may have several meanings:

1. A skeptic doubts everything, asks for evidence, and even after altering degrees of doubt in the like of evidence (which may itself doubted), remains doubtful; a pseudoskeptic only pretends to be like this, but in fact does believe something firmly and simply casts doubt on its opposite.
2. A skeptic initially doubts everything, asks for evidence and then decides whether to remain a skeptic on that issue; a pathological skeptic is incapable of removing or changing doubts in the light of evidence, either on a particular issue, or on the truth of anything.

Even if this is not true, the terms remain subject to self-definition, so the article can only be of the form "Pathological skepticism is used by A to mean B". "C thinks it is a disease". "D has accused E of being a pseudoskeptic because F". --Audiovideo 12:42, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

It certainly remains subject to fights! OK, by analogy we have habitual abusers of science, and we label their practice "pseudoscience," and those who behave this way are usually called "pseudoscientists," and CSICOP publications often shorten this to the term "pseudos." A class of people certainly exists who practice fake science, facades of science with a corrupt core, science in name only. They need a name! They have one: "pseudoscientists." But sometimes "pseudoscientist" is used as a slur. Does this mean that we should remove "pseudoscience" from WP? Of course not. It's use as a slur has no effect on its more clinical uses and definition. So then Truzzi attached a name to a similar but opposite problem: people who call themselves Skeptic, but are irrational and unscientific; skeptics in name only. Simple? I thought so. But some people seem to want to delete this entry, or to obscure it's meaning. Well, if the term has several different definitions in general use, then LIST THEM instead of arguing over which is the "real" definition. --Wjbeaty 01:48, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

That's the original form of the article: Pseudoskepticism was coined by Marcello Truzzi to refer to a portion of the membership of the CSICOP organization who claim to support rationality and skepticism, but who maintain rigid beliefs, violating the methods of Scientific Skepticism. It's analogous to the term Pseudoscience: to crackpots who claim to be scientific but who don't use the methods of science. Are there other common definitions? Also: these terms refer to Scientific Skepticism, not skepticism in general. I don't think the term Scientific Skepticism is really open to debate, but if you want to try changing its accepted meaning, refer to the WP entry on Skepticism.--Wjbeaty 01:33, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Maybe the best thing to do would be to stop pretending that this is a neutral, well-understood concept and start out with Marcello Truzzi and the history of this concept, and explain how this is a controversial, heated concept tightly involved in a war of worldviews. And since we'd be showing that it's a modern concept, we could discuss modern examples like cold-fusion and ESP along with the ancient examples picked because they were the one in a thousand that were incorrectly dismissed.--Prosfilaes 18:36, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead. But what does cold fusion (etc.) have to do with the topic? Or do you intend to argue that Pseudoskepticism doesn't exist (and cold fusion etc. is a counterexample?) Aside: I certainly agree that the great majority of self-described skeptics are honest and properly skeptical. Only a minority (perhaps 5%, perhaps less) are irrational "skeptics in name only." Personally, I'm convinced that Skeptic organizations could be much more popular and powerful on the world stage if they were more like the science community, i.e. self-critical and extremely intolerant of bad behavior among their own. On the other hand, groups like CSICOP have greatly improved over the last 20 years, and today they tend to distance themselves from the "flaming woowoo-haters" and other irrational types who seem common on newsgroups but rare at skeptic meetings. --Wjbeaty 01:32, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Revision?

Rewrite...

...the article completely, given POV. The first sentence might as well read "Pathological skepticism is total bullshit" as the tone adopted through out effectively implies that. Marskell 09:46, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

How is the article POV? please list.

IYO, "Pathological skepticism is total bullshit"? please explain ...

The tone adopted throughout implies that pathological behavior of debunking ....

Sincerely, JDR

Part of the complexity is that pathological skepticism is pathological by definition; the question is what type of skepticism is pathological. Alternately, pathological skepticism is inherantly a POV subject; one side of the argument wouldn't use the word or concept. --Prosfilaes 23:09, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

For NPOV, all that is necessary is to define the use of the word. It's in the policy. One side's "feeling" of "preference" is irrelevant. JDR 04:52, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Would it perhaps be better to have an abuses of skepticism article instead? This is an idea, not any kind of slur, that I've even seen in skeptical groups. I think Sagan mentioned it. Essentially it's people who are closer to hostile to any new theory or claim without sufficient cause. Or they use Ockham's Razor in a way not intended. For example writer Norman Spinrad reportedly said Quantum Mechanics is too complicated to be real. This was also recently in the news because a few scientists, and others, insisted there could be no way for the rediscovery of the ivory billed woodpecker to be real. Yet, the last time I checked, the woodpecker rediscovery is indeed legitimate.--T. Anthony 11:33, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

abuses of skepticism may be a good subsection in this article. JDR 04:52, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Here's an article on "Abuses of skepticism" at the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal. Richard Dawkins, Paul Kurtz, and the like are members so it doesn't look to be "woo woo" or opposed to all skepticism.--T. Anthony 11:38, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal has exhibited features of Pathological skepticism. Marcello Truzzi, a founding member of CSICP, discovered that many members of CSICP fall within this article's scope. The article @ csicop.org that you cite would be more "pseudoscience" (or atleast "bad science") ... not pseudoskepticism (in the kind of this article). JDR

Well okay. I'm just saying it would seem useful to consider when skeptics think skeptics go too far. Besides the guy who wrote that might be one of their more moderate members. (Truzzi didn't criticize every member for this) Dismissing it out of hand due to the source seems pseudoskeptical in itself. Anyway I've seen skeptic groups that quite clearly say they feel that Michael Shermer, for example, goes too far. He did an article "debunking" SETI that I thought was ludicrous and full of really bad logic. It's mentioned on the Drake equation page. I've seen self-described skeptics who agree on my verdict. (I'm not a skeptic really) The article was full of odd assumptions about civilizations dying or alien civilizations following our pattern. That wasn't the only one though. Many of his articles were like that. Skeptical Inquirer, put out by CSICOP, has at times ran essays brutal on perfectly scientific hypothesis that the author dislikes on philosophical grounds. For example certain theories about the anthropic principle make them go into near conniptions. Free Inquiry was similarly insulting of Anthony Flew for becoming a Deist because of related issues. Also studies showed that overly skeptical people are unable to see patterns that are there due to decreased dopamine levels. (Locus linked to this so it must've been in Newscientist or Nature) To me stuff like that is "pathological skepticism." I guess I don't know what you're talking about. I might just do a separate article on abuses of skepticism elsewhere--T. Anthony 06:23, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Interesting article. In the third paragraph from the end it mentions scientists hired by tobacco companies to be skeptical of links between smoking and health risks, creation scientists that are skeptical of evolution, etc. Aren't these the real pseudoskeptics? Bubba73 (talk) 03:04, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Those are some examples of certian pseudoskeptics (in the sense that it's skeptism by 'bad science'). There are other examples, like those who block honest inquiry and others not agnostic toward anomalous claims (these are not exclusive groups either). This later groups is the focus of this article. JDR

Two items in the article

The article says "Commonly cited are Galileo's heliocentric theory...". This was the theory of Copernicus, but Galileo supported it. Were scientists opposed to it or was it religious leaders? The only evidence that Galileo gave that the Earth moved was that he thought the tides were due to the motion of the Earth - and that was wrong.Bubba73

Were scientists opposed to it Yes, well sort of in a way. It's generally made out to be a religion versus science debate, but that's only part of it. Many academics in the Church were very wedded to Aristotelianism and they wanted to squash rival theories. Although just as important, if not at all related to this article, the Pope at that time felt Galileo had mocked him. People back then seemed to have reacted very badly to being mocked or believing they'd been mocked. Copernicus was hesitant and never really mocked any Pope so was okay throughout his life. Likewise the Jesuits in China translated Galileo into Chinese in the late 1600s. Although technically forbidden they were also okay as they were also not doing it to make the Pope look bad.--T. Anthony 14:38, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Galileo (in some respects) is considered the first "modern" scientist, so maybe it should be noted that scientists opposed to Galileo weren't quite the same as modern scientists. Also remember that we are looking at this with hindsight and much more information than they had at the time. Also, no one is right all of the time. For every (debatable) case like Galileo, Wegener, etc, there are many thousands of theories that are rejected by scientists that never proved to be true. Bubba73 (talk) 15:18, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Also in the article is "Alfred Wegener's theory of continental drift". The idea of the possibility of went back more than 100 years before that, but there was no proof either then or in Wegener's time. Wegener thought that the continents floated on the mantle, and that is definitely wrong, and scientists knew that at the time. As soon as evidence came in from the ocean bottom about what was actually happening, the theory of continental drift was replaced by plate techtonics. That proved that the continents do move, but not in the manner Wegener said. Bubba73 (talk) 14:26, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

scientific pseudoskeptics

The title of the section scientific pseudoskeptics seems to me to be an intentional slur on scientific skepticism. Also the section says "Some people called scientific pseudoskeptics by their opponents hold that it is better to disbelieve a correct hypothesis than to believe an incorrect one, and therefore prefer disbelief as a default opinion. " Well, that comes from the scientific method, folks. Also, in statistics, it is recognized that it is much worse to accept a false hypothesis than to reject a true hypothesis. Bubba73 (talk) 15:41, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

I thought the scientific method was proving or disproving a hypothesis. To me that implies you neither disbelieve or believe it. More like you are agnostic on the issue until it's proved or disproved by data. If you actively think it's impossible from the get go I'd think that'd make testing a hypothesis difficult.--T. Anthony 00:37, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

That it s very valid point. 18:38, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

"To me that implies you neither disbelieve or believe it."

Nonsense. People's belief is not part of the scientific method. Scientists can believe what they want and still be scientists, because science is a method and not a point of view. Otherwise almost nobody could do science. Einstein, for example, wouldn't be a scientist according to that definition because he was strongly opposed to the Copenhagen Interpretation.

IMHO, that "neither disbelieve or believe it" thing is a myth used by Truzzi and others to define their own point of view (the neutral one) as the only one allowed in science. This trick allows them to use ad hominem arguments against CSICOP and others whose point of view they don't like, and I really wonder why skeptics let them do it. -- Hob Gadling 13:29, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Your POV on the "neither disbelieve or believe it" is simplely wrong. As Truzzi (a skeptic's skeptic) and others have pointed out .... an "objective neutral view" is the one that should be sought in science. People's belief should not be part of the scientific method, BUT 'people's belief' can induce experimenter's bias into testing. The inability of a human being to remain completely objective is the ultimate source of bias.

It's not a "trick" .... and, as for "ad hominem arguments", CSICOP and others debunkers have used ad hominem methods against views and theories they don't like repeatedly. JDR 18:38, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

This is really funny. Why should I accept as truth what Truzzi "points out" about science? So you and Truzzi think that Mr. Spock is the role model for scientists? That's fine, if you want to believe that, believe it. I have no obligation to agree with your or Truzzi's POV. BTW, your vocabulary ("simplely wrong") shows you are confusing your own POV with the truth.

I think that scientists should be allowed to believe whatever they want. If a scientist makes a mistake because of his bias, other scientists with other biases can correct him. That's what the scientific method is all about. But your model, where every scientist has to think in a certain restricted way, is a poor environment for the exchange of ideas because all scientists think the same. The diversity is missing. Your scientists are closer to robots than real people.

About CSICOP folks also using "ad hominem" - do you really think that is a valid argument? This is like a burglar being caught by the police and defending himself by saying, "there are other burglars beside me! And some policemen break the law too!" What do you think, will the police let him go? --Hob Gadling 12:26, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

What kinda is funny that you ignore valid points, misconstrue others, and make snipes about Star Trek characters. You also are not obliged to agree with facts. Your opinion on the operation of the "scientific method" is not the "scientific investigation and acquisition of new knowledge based upon physical evidence; ie., characterizations, hypotheses, predictions, experiment". Scientist have to think but in a certain restricted way (ie., neither disbelieve or believe something) ... they should not let thier own assumptions into the process to tilt the method one way or another during the route to a conclusion. The exchange of ideas about hypotheses and predictions will still occur because not all scientists will think the same. Scientists are allowed to hypothesize and make predictions on whatever they want ... but a prediction (eg., thier belief) should not confound the experiment (or prevent the testeing altogether). This is what many pseudoskeptics do though.

About CSICOP folks also using "ad hominem", this is not a "logical argument" to demonstrate a truth ... it a point of history ... Sincerely, JDR 21:57, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

(Been away for a while). Which valid point did I ignore? I am also not aware of misconstruing anything. Which facts did I... whatever you think I did? Maybe you could be more specific (and thereby helpful) instead of using broad attacks? Only the Star Trek part is easily identifiable but I can't see anything wrong with that.

"Scientist have to think but in a certain restricted way (ie., neither disbelieve or believe something) etc." - repeating your POV does not make it truth. You claim that scientists should avoid some things but you have not given any reason for that.

I don't understand what you are saying in the last sentence. Do you mean that CSICOP used to use ad hominem, but doesn't now (that behaviour is history)? --Hob Gadling 08:50, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd never heard of Truzzi before this article. Although I think I did misphrase it. Ideally I think you're beliefs or disbeliefs are not to bias the testing. Is that in least right?--T. Anthony 15:07, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

NPOV vio tag

Could someone please list ... in a bullet list prefereably ... the concerns as to the NPOV violations? JDR 22:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

• if the article is about skepticism to the point of being pathological, it seems to me that it is philosophical skepticism instead.

What part of "a class of pseudoscience masquerading as proper skepticism" confuses you on "pathological skepticism" being only "philosophical skepticism" and not a 'pseudoscience' itself? It is not "a school of thought which examines whether the knowledge and perceptions one has are true" but is a "harmful abnormality" of true skepticism. JDR 17:36, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

• "Pathological skepticism (or Pseudoskepticism)" - as far as I can tell, Pseudoskepticism is an "attack the messenger" term that was made up from the legitimate terms scientific skepticism and pseudoscience. When skeptics debunk a particular item of pseudoscience, believers in that which has been debunked may resort to labeling the debunker a pseudoskeptic. (attack the messenger of bad news)

'Attack the messenger' is a ploy used by pseudoskeptics against real sciences they don't deem "true". When the "skeptics" attack and "debunk" a particular item of science, scientist in that field sometimes expose the "debunker". JDR 17:21, 8 November 2005 (UTC) (PS., though this works the other way too ... as in your example)

• The part about continental drift repeats a common popular misconception. It is misleading and largely wrong. I thought about correcting this section, but I think that if I did that, it would be seem to be irrelevant to the topic of the article. Just because scientists are not convinced that something is true is not the same as thinking it is false - it just needs more evidence to be convincing. That's the scientific process at work. Strictly speaking, Wegener's theory that continents float on the Earth's mantle has never been accepted by scientists. At the time Wegener proposed his theory, there was insufficient evidence in favor of it to accept it. Sixteen years someone else proposed a better theory, which is now known as plate tectonics and that replaced the theory of continental drift. But it still took decades for there to be enough evidence to support it.

It seem that you disagree with this paragraph:

Against this, the establishment also chose to ignore the many compelling elements of Wegener's empirical evidence pointing towards continental drift. Instead they dismissed the theory in its entirety because of Wegener's faulty proposed mechanism, thus "throwing the baby out with the bathwater." In doing so, they discouraged further investigation and prevented acceptance of a revolutionary concept for another 40 years.

Whjat is wrong with this? and as to your statement "insufficient evidence in favor of it" .... didn't Wegener have empirical evidence? At what point does the amount of evidence become "sufficient"? Seems a bit selectively biased ... Sincerely, JDR 17:21, 8 November 2005 (UTC) (more later ... after I see the revision via WMC edit)

• the part about meteors is somewhat like continental drift. It is a commonly-used attack on the scientific process, i.e. "many scientists were wrong about meteoroids falling from the sky (or other things), so science is wrong about XYZ".

• "Some people called scientific pseudoskeptics by their opponents hold that it is better to dismiss a correct hypothesis than to accept an incorrect one, and therefore prefer dismissal as a default opinion." That's the way science works, folks. A correct hypothesis that is not currently accepted always has a chance to be accepted later as more evidence is gathered. It is a much worse error to accept a false hypotheses - then that has to be fixed later, and everything that was founded on it then becomes unfounded. That's the way hypothesis testing in statistics is done too.

• the non-encyclopedic tone of the article. Would a legitimate print encyclopedia such as the Encyclopedia Britannica publish something this biased? I don't think so. This article is largely a one-sided opinion. Bubba73 (talk) 23:58, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Many (all?) of these bullets come from the recent edits by an anon. I agree with you in disliking them, and have reverted to an earlier version. This includes rm'ing your POV tag. Put it back if you think the current state still justifies it. William M. Connolley 10:14, 5 November 2005 (UTC).

WMC, don't remove the info because you don't like it ... unless a valid reason is give the information should stay. Note, I didn't put in all the info you removed the 1st time ... but some relevant info that you might not have "liked". JDR

The article with the additions is poorly written and rambling. You can't just keep adding stuff to the paragraphs. Furthermore, parallelism should be upheld; don't switch back between viewpoints. Continental drift should present why it's pathological, and then the disagreeing viewpoint, not bouncing back and forth. A one or two line explanation of why CSICOP is linked under "See also" is good; a rambling, accusatory paragraph isn't. If you want to bring CSICOP up in the main body and discuss it as a/the primary pseudoskeptical organization, do so, but please try to be more NPOV than what you have there now.--Prosfilaes 22:16, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I readded that the proof should not be extremely burdensome ... pseudoskeptics do that ... ask for proof and move the goal post to an extreme proof. Also ... a section iin this article on CSICOP might be good ... because any addition to that article would be removed instantly there ... CSICOP has many defenders, even when they are wrong (do note that they are not necessarily a pseudoskeptical organization ... but some of thier members are pseudoskeptics) ... Sincerely, JDR 22:41, 9 November 2005 (UTC) (PS., no one has answere my question 2 Bubba73, please respond Prosfilaes and anyone else .... otherwise the information should be readded)

Prosfilaes, do you mean Parallelism (grammar)? I would lioke you to clarify .... and .... What's wrong with witching back between viewpoints? ... going back and forth is expressing both sides ... Sincerly, JDR 22:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Why do you keep using ellipses? It makes your writing very hard to read. People shouldn't switch back and forth between viewpoints because it makes it very hard to follow. Explaining one side clearly, and then the other makes it a lot easier to follow what is going on. Whether you break it down and discuss both views of each point in seperate paragraphs, or you write many paragraphs on one viewpoint and respond in another set of paragraphs, it's a lot easier to read.

As for my last edit, you shouldn't say "arguably, the standards for acceptance of a patently impossible theory should be high, but the amount of evidence for a plausible theory should not be extremely burdensome" because "the standards for acceptance of a patently impossible theory" being high doesn't conflict with "the amount of evidence for a plausible theory" being not "extremely burdensome". If you want to make your addition relevant, you've got to argue that it is a plausible theory, and then argue that the standards were overly high. (It wasn't a plausible theory, IMO.)

And what question to Bubba73?--Prosfilaes 01:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

What question do you have for me? Give me a keyword so I can search for it. Bubba73 (talk), 04:44, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

No such thing as "philosophical pseudoskepticism."

I've removed it. The term "philosphical pseudoskepticism" was made up by a wikipedia user, and does not appear in web searches (except for wikipedia pages and mirrors.) The terms "pseudoskepticism" and "pathological skepticism" were coined many years ago and have come into general use, especially in debates between members of skeptical organizations versus "Believers" who support religions, UFOs, etc.--Wjbeaty 14:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Not only believers. There is a type of person (I'm tempted to term them "Vulcans") who insist that opinions are a big no-no for scientists. Vulcans are pretty intolerant against non-Vulcans, and get angry when people disagree with them. Reddi seems to be an example (see my earlier edit today). Marcello Truzzi is another - he didn't accept anything weird as true, so your characterization does not fit him. But I guess that a lot of "Believers" camouflage themselves as Vulcans. --Hob Gadling 09:05, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Truzzi coined "pseudoskeptic" but it does not appear in any of my dictionaries or lists of English words. For what that's worth. Bubba73 (talk), 00:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, the term has only been in use a few years, and it's partly a piece of Usenet sci.skeptic and JREF-style jargon. Analogy: there are plenty of WP entries (especially involving the WWW) which are in common use but which don't appear in any dictionary. Hey, I see that another sci.skeptic term isn't on WP: the term "woo woo!" grin. --Wjbeaty 19:42, 15 December 2005 (UTC)