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Revision as of 23:13, 31 December 2009

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Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 06:15, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

"Essence and Being placed into a body"

You added:

This concept is mentioned often in the classic Kaballistic and Chassidic texts, such as Pardes Rimonim 16:6 and 22:3 by Rabbi Moshe Cordovero, Zohar-2 38a, and Zohar-3 79b, and Sefer Tanya ch. 22 & 23.

See also Zohar-1 9a, Zohar-2 163b, Mechilta on Exodus 18, Bereishit Rabba 63 & 86, Tanchuma Tissa 27, and the well-known Chassidic principle ascribing fundamentally the same status to the soul of any Jew, as elaborated on by R. SZ of Liadi in Tanya ch.2.

Do these sources specify that there talking about "atzmus u'mahus" itself? Yonoson3 (talk) 20:50, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm traveling now, and don't have access to my seforim, however, in those sources I quoted that I did manage to check (via copies of their respective texts that I found online), various tzadikim are alternately referred to as "shechinta" "hashem" "pnei ha'odon hashem" and "e-l". The reference made by the LR re. "atzmus umehus" was simply a mention of this unique status accorded to a rebbe/tzaddik/nossi etc. (IIRC, in the Baal haTanya's 'likkutei torah' he uses the same term, but I couldn't pull up that text online.) Were said mention to have been made in context of a discussion of different levels of Gdliness, the specific choice of term may have been material - but in this case it clearly was not. Interestingly, this concept is rarely mentioned in chabad texts, compared to the frequent mention of same in seforim like the Noam Elimelech, Kedushas Levi, etc. See also Rashi on the passuk "vayikra lo kel elokei yisroel..." Winchester2313 (talk) 02:13, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Edits to Rabbi Elazar Shach Page & the lack of an Oposition Section In the Rebbe's Page

Hi,on the Rabbi Elazar Shach page you expanded the "Opposition to the Lubavitcher Rebbe" section considerably. Do you feel that the information should also be added to the Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson page? I find it interesting that the Rebbe's page has no mention at all of any opposition to the Rebbe.

Why should there be? It's a fact about his opponents, not about him. -- Zsero (talk) 20:51, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

That would be, imho, historically dishonest. What I added was accurate historical context, sourced in many media reports. R'Shachs public/media presence during the 80's & 90's was defined by his frequent attacks on Chabad. This was fodder for the Israeli media, and it got R'Schach some coverage. Contrast this with the media coverage of Chabad in the US during those years, and the opposition in Israel barely made the comments section. It was also largely ignored by the mainstream in the US at the time. Check out the Israeli media reports of Chabad/Schach during those years, and contrast that with the press coverage in the rest of the world - it was largely a non-issue outside Israel. Chabad & the LR were making the news roughly weekly for any number of reasons / campaigns / contro's / events. R'Schach made press only for attacks and criticisms. The record does not lie...

Winchester2313 (talk) 21:05, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

It is historically dishonest to deny that there was opposition by many to Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson. These include Rabbi Yitzchok Hutner, Rabbi Shach, Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, Rabbi Aharon Kotler and many others. -- MrSnagIt (talk) 21:18, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Your inclusion of the Satmar Rov is a blatant falsehood. You cannot cite a single word he ever said against the Lubavitcher Rebbe (or vice versa). I don't know whether R Hutner ever said anything in public against him either. Kotler hated all chassidus and chassidim, and his major beef was not with the LR but with his father-in-law; I'm not aware of anything he actually ever said against the LR himself. So that leaves Shach; yes, he opposed the LR, and that opposition played a major role in his career, but what role did it play in the LR's? How was the LR affected by it? There's simply no reason to mention it in the LR's biography, because it's not a significant fact about him, any more than the brand of socks he wore, or the name of his cleaning lady. -- Zsero (talk) 22:34, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Your lack of credible sources for these wild allegations speaks for itself. What is indisputable is that Rav Hutner maintained a correspondence with the LR for at-least the 1953-1973 period, and addressed the LR in his letters with tremendous respect. This is a matter of record, no matter how much consternation it might cause in certain circles. What correspondence occurred during R'Hutners final years will become known in the next year or two, as the publication of the LR's letters from those years goes to press. There is some credible evidence of mutual respect between the LR & the SR,and absolutely none to the contrary. This is an encyclopedia, not a soap-box. Winchester2313 (talk) 04:20, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

interesting that you use "Kotler" and "Shach", but LR instead of Schneerson. Rabbi Kotler was indeed referring to Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson when he denounced his Shor Shenagach speach with an "ehr main az ehr is moshiach". The Brisker Rov also denounced Rabbi Schneerson. Can you please provide a reference for the "Kotler hated all chassidus" statement? MrSnagIt (talk) 23:29, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

It needs no support. Everyone knows it, including you. The piece he attacked was not shor shenogach but kol baalei shir, which was from the previous LR and had nothing to do with RMMS. Kotler renewed the war against chassidus, and he didn't have the excuse that the original misnagdim had. The GRA and his colleagues made a terrible mistake, but at least they meant it leshem shomayim, not knowing where chassidus would end up. Kotler could see that chassidim are still observant, and he still made war against them. R Chaim Brisker said that nowadays (i.e. in his day) there is no such thing as a misnaged leshem shomayim; kal vachomer that it was so in Kotler's day and in Shach's. Neither of them deserves any respect. -- Zsero (talk) 00:07, 31 December 2009 (UTC)