Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 09:51, 5 January 2010

☺

Welcome to my talk page. Messages that are welcome here:

• politely-worded criticisms of my behaviour
• calmly-expressed differences of opinion
• questions about how to edit Misplaced Pages
• just saying hello or whatever
• etc.; I like getting that "you have new messages" banner.
• I hope my friends will tell me when they disagree with me or think I'm doing something wrong.

One way to leave a message here is to click on the "+" tab at the top of this page. Sometimes I reply here, sometimes on your talk page, etc.; feel free to let me know which you'd prefer.

Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8 Archive 9 Archive 10 Archive 11 Archive 12

Thank you

For this edit. I apologize for catagorizing you as a pro circumcision editor. You stood up to Jake and Avi with clear logic and listened to others concerns with an opened mind. Garycompugeek (talk) 13:01, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Gary. I accept your apology. In general, I prefer not to be categorized. I believe that each individual has their own unique set of beliefs that are not easily summarized in a single phrase. In general on Misplaced Pages, I try to base my edits and talk page discussion not on my personal beliefs (which I haven't stated!) but on reliable sources and policies and guidelines, as well as trying to find compromises.

You can help. I think a similar edit needs to be done in the body of the article, (perhaps a full sentence, based on that source or some other source) and perhaps the wikilink moved to the body of the article (i.e. "female circumcision" could appear without a wikilink in the lead since it's near the hatnote, and with a wikilink later in the article.) Perhaps you can find time to do that if I don't. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 13:13, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Hmm

Would you mind taking another look at this edit? I appreciate what you're trying to do, but I don't think that both refs support both claims in that sentence... Thanks, Jakew (talk) 17:37, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure, no problem. No strong feelings either way. I've self-reverted. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 17:42, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. Jakew (talk) 21:23, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

You're welcome. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 22:56, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Search multiple prefix template

Coppertwig, I finally got around to finishing this template, the one we discussed a while ago here question about parsing in a template and here User_talk:Coppertwig#Extension:VariablesExtension. It is not the most eloquent solution, but the wikipedia templating language is not exactly the most sophisticated language either. Which is by choice, I was surprised to find out. But, I wanted to show you what I came up with. If you have any suggestions, please feel free to comment.

• Here is an example searching all the deletion discussions (I think.. there are a lot of areas) User:Stmrlbs/SearchDeletionDiscussions

Search All Deletion Discussions with instructions (strikeout/fix stmrlbs|talk 04:31, 23 November 2009 (UTC))

• Here is the template User:Stmrlbs/Template/Search_prefixes

stmrlbs|talk 04:26, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Coppertwig, I realize you are on a wikibreak, but I thought I would let you know that I moved this to the wikipedia public template area:

Template:Search_prefixes. Hope to see you here again. stmrlbs|talk 21:00, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 13:59, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Adding parameters to templates

Hi,

I have an idea to improve a template, but have no idea where to start, to implement it.

{{NYCS-bull-small}} produces small bullets for New York City Subway services, for example Template:NYCS-bull-small. It is used on the rolling stock page to identify which trains operate on which services. Someone recently improved it with the capability to link to the service page.

Here's where the problem comes in. The Template:NYCS-bull-small bullet links to a disambiguation page listing all former and current shuttles. I kludged the output of the rolling stock page for the three current shuttle services. It looks silly, and I'd like to streamline the appearance.

How do I modify the template to accept the parameters of "42nd Street", "Franklin Avenue" and "Rockaway Park" to produce an Template:NYCS-bull-small bullet with the proper link to those shuttle's service page?

Acps110 (talk) 23:20, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Acps110. I'm sorry I didn't tell you I was going to be away for a number of weeks. I'm back, though not spending as much time here as before, and perhaps only on weekends.

I fixed the template as you suggested. Good idea!

I don't quite understand how the if statements work. Something about having to distinguish between the null string, "false", zero or some other kind of empty result. Anyway, as I understand it, {{{2|x}}} means use parameter 2 or if it doesn't exist, use "x". {{{2|}}} means use parameter 2 or if it doesn't exist, use the null string. But for some reason which I forget, you then also have to use an if statement, which will take the null string as a false condition. Anyway, that's the pattern I use, an if statement with {{{2|}}} as the condition to test whether the user has specified a second parameter when calling it, and it works. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 14:48, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

COOL! Looks Great!

Thank you for the explanation on how you implemented that! My request was not intended to be earth-shattering; thank you for getting to it when you had time. I'll update the documentation to include the new feature. Acps110 (talk) 23:15, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I was going to try to remember to update the documentation.

Actually, I was quite pleased to see several messages waiting for me when I got back from my wikibreak. I like getting messages. I'm glad you like it! ☺Coppertwig (talk) 00:31, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Maintained tag

Hey Copper, hope life is well. Just a quick note that I added you to a maintained tag on the Che article as you and I are usually the first to respond. If you would rather me remove you, just let me know. As an aside, I miss running into you around the Wiki world :o) - hope you're not to busy.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 03:44, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Fine, although, as I said above, I don't expect to be spending as much time here. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 13:58, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

First Roumanian-American congregation

Thanks, and thanks for all your help with it. Nice to see you editing again! Jayjg 01:25, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

DIA EMAIL POSTED

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/blog/

Sorry, I don't see such an email at that link. I see "New Energy Times Blog" and "Krivit and Marwan Report Published", etc. Is it somewhere on that page? ☺Coppertwig (talk) 23:39, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi Coppertwig, hope you don't mind me commenting. It was taken down. I emailed a copy to you, so that hopefully you can better see how much of a review process this document has gone through.

P.S. Think about it. If cold fusion had any remote possibility of working, would the DIA be releasing this publicly, so that foreign governments could read it and start putting serious money into clandestine energy weapons research? For real? It's laughable. Phil153 (talk) 00:30, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the copy of the email, Phil123, which I hadn't previously seen, but which has been superseded by later developments. The document from the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency has been officially released as an unclassified document and is published on both the lenr-canr and New Energy Times websites. I don't care to speculate as to their reasons for releasing it, but it's a report which, as far as I can tell, summarizes information which was already publicly available (and thus makes an excellent secondary source for Misplaced Pages to cite). The report came out of a collaborative effort involving consultations with technology experts as well as researchers in the field, and was "Coordinated with DIA/DRI, CPT, DWO, DOE/IN, US Navy SPAWAR/Pacific and U.S. NSWC/Dahlgren, VA."

By the way, the report points out that other countries are already doing more cold fusion research than the U.S., so I'm not sure your argument holds up.

Of course I don't mind you commenting. I like getting talk page messages. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 23:49, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't know the field intimiately, but I think the more accurate statement is "other countries and companies have done more cold fusion research than the US, and found cold fusion useless." Most of this occurred in the 90s, and much of the funding has been discontinued. The dates are right there in this report.

There are no new authors here, it's the same fringe walled garden. Example: Mosier-Boss; McKubre, etc. To give you an idea of their credibility...McKubre supports and cites the work of Dardik (if you don't know who Dardik is, have a read of this). This is par for the course...even the originator of cold fusion, Fleischmann, is getting treated by Dardik. The brightest luminaries in cold fusion believe in, or at least use and support, makers of AIDS/cancer/panacea-cold fusion wave cures. Think about what that implies regarding gullibility, critical thinking skills, ability to detect fraud, and general carefulness.

Anyway, I'm ranting and I apologise. This is not an argument against exclusion, just an FYI. Have a nice day. Phil153 (talk) 23:47, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not impressed by ad-hominem arguments. It's not up to us to judge the character of authors, but to report what appears in reliable published sources. Also, maybe it's just my lack of familiarity with the field, but I don't remember having seen the name Barnhart as an author of cold fusion publications before. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 01:52, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

What I wrote were not arguments against inclusion, despite what Abd (erroneously) believes. This is your talk page, not talk:cold fusion. I was merely trying to engage you; your unwavering support of Abd and sympathy toward cold fusion is curious to me; despite being fringe friendly you are not like other CF proponents, and I was curious as to why you believe as you do. Anyway, your replies makes it clear that you are not interested in being open about that. That's fine...I apologise for taking your time...all the best! Phil153 (talk) 04:15, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I enjoy discussion and argument. If I've said something you disagree with, I'd be happy to discuss it. When you say "why you believe as you do," I don't know what beliefs you're talking about. I try to edit according to reliable published sources, not according to personal beliefs (which I generally don't discuss on-wiki), and people often jump to false conclusions about what my personal beliefs (if any) on a topic might be. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 16:27, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Appreciate

I appreciate your follow-up on my talk page. All the best to you as well. Debresser (talk) 16:51, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 16:56, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the civil notice

I think you "seem to suggest" is civil. The current presentation has strong bias. I addressed Jake's criticism directly with him, with his own prompting discussion text.

HIV belongs in the text, but not in the lead. It is not a significant healtlh issue basically unless you live in Africa.

No dates should be used (as is standard in the body), or all the association dates are needed (cite not just the AMA 1999 but most associations with their respective dates) along with the WHO/UNAIDS and CDC dates.

I will find religious advocacy statements. You don't understand, or disagree, that medical issues are over emphasized in the circumcision article?Zinbarg (talk) 23:19, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your message. I've replied on your talk page. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 00:55, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

So much to address. You're right about being more civil. Is my last proposed paragraph OK? It leaves the HIV benefit info in the lead. If you and/or Jake insist on dates for the WHO/UNAIDS and CDC publications, I'd like to put in the several association statements and their dates (mostly post gold standard HIV/circ studies) that each say do not recommend.Zinbarg (talk) 03:27, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Delete it?

I would like to remove the "medical propaganda" discussion I started. First, I looked more carefully, and it's nothing near 2/3 of the text. The whole text loads slowly because it's so full of stuff that's not actually readable. I do think it's wrong to seek medical justification for something sacred. What set me off is it sometimes makes the text unprofessional and dated. The medical camp is a relatively tiny fringe group with generally weak research. But, there are more important things for me to do. Can I delete the section from discussion?Zinbarg (talk) 19:24, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Stephan Schulz

AfDM| page=Stephan Schulz|logdate=2009 December 10

I thought you might be interested in this vote. Vanity Pages for Admins really have no place on Misplaced Pages and it is high time to clear this detritus. ~ Rameses (talk) 11:18, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The above message appears to me to violate the WP:CANVASS guideline, especially the last sentence. I see from your userpage that you've apparently been blocked as a sockpuppet. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 23:17, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Ping

I have sent you an e-mail. --Tenmei (talk) 17:00, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Mentorship

The Revision History of Misplaced Pages:Mentorship records your participation the article's development; and for this reason, I am reaching out to you.

Please consider reviewing my edit at Misplaced Pages:Mentorship#Unintended consequences. In the search for a mentor deemed acceptable by ArbCom, I plan to cite this as a useful context for discussing what I have in mind. --Tenmei (talk) 22:03, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your time and consideration. As a gesture of appreciation, please allow me to share a rhetorical question from the Analects of Confucius: "Is it not pleasant to learn with a constant perseverance and application?" --Tenmei (talk) 17:58, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Prod placed on Yes/old version

As technically redirects aren't applicable to the WP:PROD process, I deprodded this one... and sent it straight to RfD here. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 10:23, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

NPOV section

(The discussion below appears to refer to the section User:Coppertwig#Neutral point of view.) ☺Coppertwig (talk) 16:51, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Good quotes in the NPOV section of your user page. I agree completely that minority / fringe POVs should be represented as such, but that doesn't mean they should be eliminated. Depth perception.. good analogy. For any controversial subject, I think the public is interested both mainstream and non-mainstream opinion, and the reasons behind the difference of opinion. stmrlbs|talk 04:07, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks!!

As I see it, "fringe" means a gray area, not an all-or-nothing categorization defined by Wikipedians to justify deletion of material that doesn't fit Wikipedians' concept of The Truth. An argument to delete some material as a "tiny-minority" POV should establish that the shortest reasonably feasible mention of the material in a particular article, in comparison to the overall size of the article, would give it undue weight in consideration of the proportion of its mention in reliable sources. Such arguments will vary from article to article, as some articles have room for more detailed examination of a subtopic than others. When I read an article, I like to see more than one POV presented, with enough information on the rationales for the POVs for me to begin to form my own opinion. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 13:59, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

You both make excellent points. Keep up the good work, and Happy New Year! -- Brangifer (talk) 15:39, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree, Coppertwig. I've often thought (after seeing some arguments go on forever) that perhaps there should be some kind of "standard format" for controversy on any topic - a section for "Mainstream Opinion" (with this title) and a section for "Minority Opinion" with subsections, what weight the minority opinion has (if this can be verified - and I realize this in itself is a battle ground) and references for both sides of the fence. Fringe implies something on the borders of the "main" body, but it also implies that fringe is a small percentage of the whole. That is not always true for "minority" opinion, and sometimes the minority weight grows with new information (or the release of previously suppressed information, as in the case of tobacco). You can see this in history that many times that Mainstream opinion is something fluid that is greatly influenced by current culture, economics, and media. Look at the history of smoking and lung cancer - a battle over 50 years between science and economics and national priorities - and not much to do with "truth". Eugenics was "mainstream" in the early 1900s, and the U.S. created a Eugenics office in 1910, headed by Dr. Harry Laughlin who was instrumental in setting racial standards for immigrants, and sterilation of "defectives" - all supported by the science of that time. Even though I think Misplaced Pages should represent the current view - what is current mainstream and majority opinion, it should always strive to present the background and references for all points of view. stmrlbs|talk 20:49, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Articles are not supposed to be written from the POV of the majority mainstream opinion—they're supposed to be written from NPOV, which coincides with majority mainstream opinion only when there are no significant minority POVs in reliable sources. Having a standard format wouldn't help that much, because minority opinions range everywhere from tiny-minority opinions that don't fit into an article at all, to minority opinions that are supported by almost as many reliable sources as the majority opinion. Also, rather than having a mainstream section and then a criticism or alternative section, it's better to have a single section (or sections divided by logical subtopics) and present all POVs that are relevant when discussing any subtopic, sometimes even within the same sentence. That way if someone only reads part of an article, they don't get a biassed view; and we don't have endless arguments about which POV should come first. But yes: POVs are fluid, and what was fringe in the past could be mainstream in the future. They usually don't change suddenly. So the articles need to be able to change gradually, too. If a POV gets a tiny bit more support in RS than it did in the past, we shouldn't have to suddenly declare that it's no longer fringe and give it a big section where previously it was totally kept out of an article. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 21:07, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't know, Coppertwig. Perhaps we could have a whole new force of "RS weight patrollers". When an RS changed weight, a bot would pop up related articles, and stated weights would be changed. ;) Seriously, I have no problem with your method of presentation either. I just disagree with the attitude that I see sometimes with this type of presentation that mainstream opinion does not need to be cited or referenced as mainstream, because it is "the truth" and has been "proven". I think it always adds to an article to state the source of the opinion - or forgone conclusion. I think that presenting the many sides of so many topics is what makes wikipedia unique as a source and what attracts many people. stmrlbs|talk 22:01, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it's NPOV that makes Misplaced Pages so great. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 22:06, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

FYI

I responded to you on my talk page. Have a happy and healthy New Year. --CrohnieGal 19:09, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Chabad on Misplaced Pages arbitration request

Since you have been kind enough to comment at the unresolved WP:COI case at Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/User:Yehoishophot Oliver, you may wish to know that it has now been nominated for arbitration. Feel free to review at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#Chabad on Misplaced Pages and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—

• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#Requesting Arbitration;
• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration guide.

Thank you for your input and patience, IZAK (talk) 09:51, 5 January 2010 (UTC)