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Okay, hands up anyone who wants to discuss.....

Moved from Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. --MZMcBride (talk) 07:29, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

• Clarification: BLP means Biography of Living Persons. See wp:BLP. --DThomsen8 (talk) 12:16, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

. In October while I was told about this website as a place where concerned editors were discussing what to do about BLPs, and that the board was private and pseudonyms were being used, and that there were a number of people using it (24?). Rather than detail all the rumours I was told, I thought I'd throw it up here and see what folks thought. At the time, I told the arbitration committee and left it with them. However, upon thinking about it, I am not comfortable with the idea that there is another secret board which I have on idea about whether it is wound up or...what? How do folks feel? Discussing this may highlight to WMF how frustrated some folks are with the BLP issue. I was tempted to make an RfC but there was no dispute as such so....do other editors want the board made not-secret? or what? Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:15, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Who's in charge? Can we trust them? I've heard of certain external forums where the IP addresses of participants were used in less-than-admirable ways, so I'm loath to buy a pig in a poke as my people would put it. The BLP mess needs fixing but let's be sure what the nature of this forum really is. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 05:21, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Empty forum ... I registered, and still nothing there. Still no permission to view anything. Perhaps they're just looking for people who will stupidly give them their wikipedia account name and password. oops. :-) Proofreader77 (talk) 05:26, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Is it possible that some kind soul "in the know" could tell the rest of us what this is about? What website, who is private, what pseudomymns, what is the other "secret board", and what has any of this to do with WP:SOFIXIT transforming itself by some untraceable magic into goatse? Oh yes, and what does this have to do with the usually quite coherent Casliber?

Err, nearly all decent forum software will salt your password so that it's impossible for even those with database access to retrieve it. (Obviously it could be recorded on submit, but my God what a waste of time. Why would I want your password? Mine is far more useful!) --MZMcBride (talk) 05:53, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

If you ever read my password, you'd understand why it's the top selling password on Amazon. ;-) Proofreader77 (talk) 06:25, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Err. What. Why would arbcom or anyone on wikipedia need to know about a site like that? And what's wrong with the current "forum to talk about wikipedia's BLP problem". The EEML thing aside, we don't live in a vacuum. Like minded folks are going to coordinate outside the confines of the project. Frankly the less intertwined wikipedia and the "BADSITE" are, the healthier each is. Protonk (talk) 05:59, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it is just me, but Casliber's link sends me to goatse. ÷seresin 06:05, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

WTF, me too. Something I never wantred to see. Heironymous Rowe (talk)

Me three. I have an odd suspicion the board admins have seen this discussion. Tony Fox (arf!) 06:14, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Haha. It now redirects to the goatse.cx pic. No I probably do not want 'them' to decide what to do with BLPs. Unomi (talk) 06:18, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Could one of the "in" crowd tell those of us who haven't a clue just what this thread is about, and how it all relates to secret boards whose board admins have now "seen this discussion", and all explained in plain (or even fancy) English? How did sofixit become goatse and what has all this to do with external forums, BLPs and Casliber's usually quite coherent proposals? It would be a very kind gesture to enlighten the rest of us. Bielle (talk) 07:23, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

why is this an incident requiring admin attention. Personally I've discussed BLPs and associated problems off-line (you know not using the internet) and there is no problem with this. If there is such a forum, how is that different from a phone conference, meeting over coffee, or any other way that Wikipedian's meet to discuss things? Unless there is some evildoing to point to, what is the problem ? - Peripitus (Talk) 08:13, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

• Do you have any proof that what you say is indeed happening on that site? If not then why are you bringing this up here? --Coffee // have a cup // ark // 08:36, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
• Ok, there seems to be a fundamental problem with this thread. Misplaced Pages does not have any control over other websites. They can close their doors and discuss Misplaced Pages all they want, and there's not a damn thing admins, ArbCom, or even Jimbo can do about it. Also, I am personally a strong believer that any off-wiki activity except outing someone is irrelevant as far as on-wiki activity is concerned. So, I don't see any need to continue this conversation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beeblebrox (talk • contribs)
  • Agreed. --Coffee // have a cup // ark // 08:53, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I have seen it again and again, when veteran editors don't support an initiative, they will use procedural grounds, such as "wrong forum" to close the topic.

Casliber, a former arbcom, has a link showing possible evidence of a new secret mailing list. I suspect there is probably more evidence too?

Beeblebrox, ARK, Peripitus are you members of secret mailing list?

Casliber, if you don't start a RFC, I will. Will supporters of the flagged revision attempt to procedurally close the RFC too? Ikip 12:21, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

The link is: I suggest the community decide for themselves. Per talk page rules, please not delete this link again. Ikip 12:25, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Is this some kind of crude joke Casliber? The link goes to a really crude picture now. If the site existed, I hope you scrapped it, before you made this public. Ikip 12:30, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

The most likely explanation, as per above, is that the site admins redirected upon learning of this thread. Throwaway85 (talk) 12:34, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Ikip, did you read the thread before posting? For future ref don't click on any links where "goatse" is mentioned.   pablo_hablo. 12:37, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Which image did it link to? That may tell us something about the admin's level of creativity and knowledge of shock sites. Jehochman 22:17, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Or Misplaced Pages. It was linked directly to the Misplaced Pages file that is used on the Misplaced Pages article for Goatse. Please note that article and the file in its infobox are NOT SAFE FOR WORK. Risker (talk) 22:40, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I dug through the contribution lists to find the site Casliber linked to above, & used that nice utility known as whois to shed a little light on the matter. The domain in question is owned by another domain, "1and1.com", which is based in Chesterbrook, Pennsylvania; I don't know of any Wikipedians/Wikimedians associated with that town. There is a name attached to the 1and1.com domain, but the person is not familiar to me either. (I'm off to bed, & leave further conspiratorial speculations to the rest of you.) -- llywrch (talk) 06:54, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

This may be of interest. NW (Talk) 11:21, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Unresolving. The word on the street is that this was a forum that was dedicated to tightening up BLP practices and that its members were coordinating to affect the outcomes of AFD discussions. There was nothing visible there because threads were deleted as soon as a discussion was closed. I'm hearing things about who was a member there, but am not repeating any names without independent confirmation. It appears possible to test the veracity of this by writing a script to test for unusual clusters of recent participation at AFDs of BLP subjects. Would one of our coders look into that avenue, please? At the very least it would help to settle the concerns if this is untrue. And if it is true (or nearly so) I would for my own part suggest amnesty for anyone who steps forward and explains this to the community within the next 24 hours. Durova 04:06, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I registered an account there, as "Earl Gray". I also have not looked at the website since making the account, much less make any edits. I also don't even remember my password. I think monsters are being seen here. Keegan (talk) 05:35, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

While you may have a point about clustering of votes, I am afraid it is much, much more likely to show clusters of voters coming in to "save" articles from deletion. The philosophical divide between the so-called "inclusionists vs deletionists" has been present for longer than almost everybody editing today has been registered on this site, and any study will show that certain editors fairly consistently vote in certain ways. Therefore, any such exercise will serve only to demonise those who have a common philosophy; witch-hunts to point fingers at people as possibly being a member of such a forum, when the same philosophy or voting pattern may be shared by hundreds of others who are completely uninvolved, is precisely what Misplaced Pages is not. Shall we also equally suspect that inclusionists are using secret, yet undiscovered forums to force loosening of the GNG, or ganging up to keep articles of little worth? I am rather certain that my own votes weigh heavily on the deletionist side, not because I am a true deletionist, but because there's little motivation to comment in favour of keeping articles when the overwhelming majority are kept, and when the threshold for deletion is constantly being raised. I can quite assure everyone that I do not participate in any external Misplaced Pages-related forums for any purpose. Risker (talk) 04:30, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, analysis of clustered AFD participations was one of the things that exposed the Poetlister sockfarm. An arbitration case has just come to completion about offsite coordination. The only fair thing to do is to look into all such matters evenhandedly when they arise. Durova 04:39, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

In the EEML case, you voted for this principle, and described it as the heart of the case. If this sofixit.org is, in fact, a site where a long list of administrators coordinated activity on deletions and other BLP related work, and where multiple steps were taken to obscure the Misplaced Pages usernames of those involved... I find it hard to square your vote in the EEML case with your comment here, which seems to suggest we let it go. Nathan 04:40, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Hundreds of editors comment on AfDs every week; it's not the same two dozen or so, as was the case in the EEML. AfD is a highly public forum, as opposed to individual articles; activity at AfD is regularly scrutinised on an ongoing basis by many editors and administrators. As to such patterns meaning anything, all one has to do is run the same scripts looking for onwiki statements to find the editors most likely to vote keep or delete of BLPs onwiki, in case nobody has already noticed the same names in discussions (on both sides of the spectrum) for a long time. Some editors spend a great deal of time notifying all sorts of onwiki projects about ongoing deletion discussions (and more credit to them, as their work draws the interest of our diverse editor base), which means that there is no reasonable manner in which to differentiate people who have come to a discussion because they're watching onwiki pages or offwiki pages. Risker (talk) 05:39, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

You're really not listening, Durova. This is a topic in which a few hundred Wikipedians are involved in on a near-daily basis, posting throughout the encyclopedia on public pages that anyone can see. Many people have openly declared their positions on this topic, in multiple onwiki pages. We have onwiki resources that specifically seek to draw interested editors to these public and widely read discussions. That the same names keep coming up is going to tell us that the same names keep coming up; there's no way to tell the source of their interest unless someone sends their archives in, as happened in the EEML case, and there is obvious collusion and canvassing as became apparent in the EEML case. Telling us that something exists doesn't mean that there is anything we can do about it. Risker (talk) 06:04, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I skimmed this thread and was left with two questions:

1. Did Durova get all of her information in a Skype conversation (off-wiki activity by Wikipedians, oh my!)?
2. Where in the hell did Durova get the idea that she has the power to grant people amnesty?

I'd suggest re-archiving this thread. I don't see any good coming of it. Though, as always, sense will be tossed aside in favor of wiki-sleuthing over a lazy holiday. *shrugs* --MZMcBride (talk) 07:20, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

This is way ahead of that discussion, Risker. People didn't think there was much to be done about Mantanmoreland either, and someone had even been using malware to try to figure out whether he was socking. That dragged on for two years until the community finally rolled up its sleeves and looked at edit histories. That was when we finally got consensus that he was gaming the system. Durova 18:42, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

MZMcBride, from what I can tell, you were involved in this forum in some capacity. Therefore, your requests to archive the discussion tend to inflame suspicions. I, for one, don't really understand what this group was up to. If you or someone else could explain it to us publicly (or even to arbcom-l), I think it would do a lot for promoting transparency. Among the reasonable questions one might have: (1) Does the group still operate? (2) Did vote-stacking occur? Cool Hand Luke 10:16, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

It looks like a forum to discuss biographies of living people. Forums have a number of benefits over using Misplaced Pages (far less visibility, no database dumps, greater anonymity, better software, etc.). I didn't vote-stack and I don't believe anyone else did, though all of the discussions seem to have been deleted by the person running the site, so I can't really say for sure (it had been months since I last logged in before I did so a few days ago). For all I know, there could have been a massive cabal, but I doubt it. --MZMcBride (talk) 06:42, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

this suggests that it set off a raw nerve with you, so I find this hard to believe. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:51, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, people are quick to look for an agenda behind my posts, so I don't think it's unreasonable to look for one behind yours. I realize it's the holidays, but an incredibly stupid deletion nomination followed by a wholly inappropriate post at a noticeboard for incidents needing administrator attention? I was taking the good faith approach and simply assuming you were burned out and needed a break. Though, if that isn't the case, I'm back left wondering why you're making the moves you're making (and doing it in such a haphazard, amateurish fashion). --MZMcBride (talk) 07:07, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Come off it MZM, you are doing your best to bury this thread, and moving it was one way. I had placed it there as it was a flag of user conduct for review - agreed there was nothing much to do while no-one admitted, but your behaviour ever since suggest you know very well what the site is and are intimately involved. And now the I-don't-know-what-the-site-is-oh-yes-I-do-but-not-much come over as lame. Hence the AN/I board seems entirely appropriate to me. So I made a delete call which sank? Who cares Happens all the time. I'd like you to quit hurling negative adjectives in my direction and admit you were/are annoyed by the thread's presence. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:25, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Err, I think it was rather obvious I was annoyed by the thread's presence, though I don't think it's the same type of annoyance you think it is. I wasn't really annoyed that you wanted to discuss the site. I realized long ago that anything involving Wikipedians will never stay secret or internal or private for long, and the nature of this particular endeavor made that ten times truer. My annoyance came from where you placed the thread, and it annoyed me enough that I decided to move the thread myself. Cas, you're not new here. You know that AN/I isn't the place you go to just "have a conversation" with the community about something. That's what the village pumps are for. AN/I is a filthy cesspool of drama—it's a place where you post if you're after some sort of administrator action or review, not somewhere you post if you're after a calm and rational discussion of the serious issues facing biographies of living people and what steps (if any) people are taking to address these issues, on-site or off. And even if you'd managed to spend the last three-and-a-half years here and still have not figured out where to post, there are giant boxes at the top of the pages explaining this. (And I say this as someone who has posted in the wrong place before with some regularity.)

I'm still curious (perhaps concerned is a better word) about your motivations, which didn't look particularly pure from the start and you've certainly done nothing over the past few days to make them look any purer (though undoubtedly you'd say the same of me). You say you're after some type of "user conduct" review, but you know that trying to regulate off-site behavior is a powder keg. When you're posting to AN/I about the erotic fiction that some users administer or the other off-site activities that Wikipedians are involved in, it'll make your quest for "review" here seem a bit more legitimate. But you know that it's patently none of your damn business what people choose to do (or discuss) elsewhere. You're truly in no position to judge what others do with their free time, you can only judge what people do on-site. If you find a pattern of impropriety on Misplaced Pages by specific users, by all means, feel free to post to AN/I and ask for review. But that's not what you did. You didn't do your homework and then ask for help when you got stuck, did you? (And, as Risker notes, the irony here is that if you did a large-scale analysis of voting behavior in deletion discussions, the odds heavily favor finding collusion among inclusionists, not deletionists.)

You've known about this site since October and only decided to discuss this now. Why? I don't know. Perhaps you've just been busy, but when I look at the broader pattern of your behavior lately, it looks like you're hitting some stage of burnout. This could be an isolated week for you, but I doubt it. Simply put, for all intents and purposes, it looks like you're trolling. Nobody goes to post at AN/I unless they're looking for drama. Nobody goes to file a deletion discussion for a page involved in a weeks-long nasty dispute unless they're looking for drama. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your actions, but they're pretty transparent trolling (to me, at least, "it takes one to know one," as they say). And trolling is usually one of the stages of burnout (Cremepuff222 just re-demonstrated this lesson pretty spectacularly). If we go back a bit further, I think there are some pretty clear indicators you're (slowly) burning out. The best example of this would probably be your quick drop out from the Arbitration Committee when presented with the opportunity. This is why I politely suggested you take a break, though you blew off the suggestion. Oh well. I've watched this burnout pattern happen a lot (to myself and a lot of others). I'm fairly confident you'll be able to recover, though. So it's not all bleak. :-)

You didn't ask for my analysis or opinion, but I provided it anyway, with the caveat that I could be completely wrong. Though, after a couple of years here, I'm fairly good at spotting these kinds of things. If you want to have a calm and rational discussion about biographies of living people, the benefits and detriments of off-site discussions about biographies, or something similar, here is a pretty good place to start (or on my talk page). I'm more than happy to have a conversation with you if you stop the bullshit and the antics. I hope you're enjoying the holidays. --MZMcBride (talk) 01:32, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

I must say I can't agree with the statement "Nobody goes to post at AN/I unless they're looking for drama." Were that true, we wouldn't need an AN/I board. We could close it down and reduce drama. I'm also confused by the "It looks like a forum to discuss biographies of living people." comment, which was apparently posted after the link changed. Firsfron of Ronchester 05:43, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

If you can't fathom why I wouldn't remain an arb unless dragged kicking and screaming after a few people I respect suggested it was time to leave then that says more about you than me. But I will leave this discussion now and you can explain to the community at large rather than continually deflecting.Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:54, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

MZMcBride, it has been suggested that you were the "person running the site." Do you know why people would say that? If it was not you, could you tell us who it was? Feel free to email arbcom-llists.wikimedia.org. I, for one, would appreciate candor. Cool Hand Luke 11:06, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, some straight answers would be nice. So far MZMcBride has responded by trying to close down the discussion, moving it from ANI, throwing in tl;dr distractions like turning on Casliber and complaining about inclusionists, and claiming that Misplaced Pages wants to control all off-site activities of its editors. This is all smoke and mirrors. MZMcBride appears to have been running a forum at which admins and others coordinated their activities in getting BLPs deleted (a la the Eastern European mailing list, which just ended in lengthy bans), and once this forum was revealed at ANI someone redirected it to goatse, which really makes me respect those involved </sarc>. Then MZMcBride joined the thread about it, like a criminal returning to the scene of the crime. So, who else has been playing silly buggers in the Biography Euthanasia Squadron? Fences&Windows 00:57, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Well from poking around on the site I can confirm it existed and that the forum was named Sisyphus. Not much else.©Geni 03:56, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I have reason to believe that it was Professor Plum ... in the library ... with the candlestick. Hurry now, there's not much time before these people take over the world, one 💕 that anyone can edit at a time. - Rjd0060 (talk) 19:51, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Did anything come out of this? --Apoc2400 (talk) 16:36, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

See User_talk:MZMcBride#From_the_VP_thread.2C_perhaps_you_didn.27t_see for continuing discussion (or this and following edits if archived. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:18, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

(British) New year's honours list

Just a reminder that honours are only officially conferred when they are conferred (now there's an oxymoron!). Until such time it is incorrect to refer to the subject of any honour by their post-honorific title. I see the obvious showbiz one (Mr Patrick Stewart) had already been knighted which I have corrected but everyone needs to be sharp about this. CrispMuncher (talk) 08:06, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Just to save some headscratching, our British friend CrispMuncher is talking about this edit to tthe Patrick Stewart article. I'm guessing that our friends across the pond have some tradition about using New Years in order to grant Knighthoods, which is what's bringing this up now...

Comment: I wanted to take the opportunity to comment about this in general. Please keep in mind that I'm not criticizing CrispMuncher specifically here. I personally find it terrible that, as a community, we've taken it upon ourselves to police things like this. Generally speaking it goes something like this: someone with authority to do so puts out a (essentially) press release regarding an upcoming event → news publications publish said press release → readers who are Misplaced Pages editors read press release → same readers edit related Misplaced Pages article(s) → other editors revert/edit war over inclusion of content based on "it hasn't happened yet!" (essentially relying on WP:CRYSTAL). As with the vast majority of Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines, applying the underlying principles of our practices requires a judicious dose of reasoning (often erroniously referred to as "common sense"). To use this as an example, I'm fairly confidant that both the British Aristocracy knows what their doing, and that there is enough attention to this issue that any "outlier" mistakes would be quickly corrected after the fact. If it's reasonably certain that Patrick Stewart is going to be knighted Real Soon Now™, then just leave the edits adding "Sir" to his article alone. Reverting those edits just makes us editors, as a group, look like dicks.

ps.: just to let you all know, I'm on vacation right now and I'm drunk, so if this post makes me look like a dick, please just ignore it!
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 08:32, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

No, what makes us look like dicks is to be so obsessed with being bang-up-to-date that we are willing to jump the gun, and sacrifice correctness in favour of currency. Stewart is only an example. Has Rick Parfitt got his OBE yet? Has anyone on the list been to see the Queen (or authorised official) and receive their honour? Today's announcements are official ones rather than mere speculation, but it does not change the fact they mere announcements rather than actual conferral. CrispMuncher (talk) 09:12, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Maybe there's something about the nature of titles that makes this level of "accuracy" worth it, I don't know (although, if you'll allow this upstart American to set aside "good faith" for a moment, I have to say that this looks like some sort of pride issue. I likely just don't have enough respect for the Aristocracy to see the Impending Doom inherent in stating that someone is a "knight" a couple of days before they're "knighted". C'est la vie). I just want to reiterate that my comment really isn't directed at you in particular, nor with the alien social customs of you Brits. This (updating articles at the first hint that something has changed) is hardly a new phenomenon, after all. I apologize for making you feel embattled at all, this was merely a convenient post for me to spout off about my unimportant personal views. Just trying to provide a little perspective, is all.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 09:29, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

No offence taken - I fully recognise the difference between robust discussion and personal slight. I do find it slightly objectionable on procedural grounds - would you describe a US President Elect as President simply because he will be President? You may not care for the British honours system or its quirks but that does not affect the validity of those quirks. The difference between announcement and conferment can amount to far more than a few days though - from memory Rudy Guiliani waited several years before receiving his (honourary) knighthood. In fact looking him up I notice another mistake in that honorary knights are not entitled "Sir" as the infobox states.

If Stewart got hit by a bus today, after the announcement but before the Queen's ceremony, would he be "Sir" in his obituary? Would it matter if the bus were powered by dilithium crystals? (The first question is serious ... the second shows that there's something about typing comments online that brings out the 13-year-old.) - DavidWBrooks (talk) 20:27, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

However, I'm smarter than that - that just shows how endemic it is. If the tide can't be turned I'll save my breath since it seems like a lost cause. CrispMuncher (talk) 10:07, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, I agree with CrispMucher in the main. Just commenting to point out the honorary knights by convention shouldn't be Sir in the infoboxes (don't know whether you were suggesting they should or shouldn't), IIRC. - Jarry1250  10:14, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

To be fair (and sensitive), I would say the same if we were talking about swearing someone in to political office (President vs. President Elect). Keeping in mind here several very important qualifiers: The election having been complete, and there being little if any notable controversy about the result, and that the ceremony is within days.

I personally am an ex-military person myself, so the specific honorifics concept that we're discussing here isn't completely foreign to me. Quite a bit of this has to do with context, after all. Taking the POTUS title, as an example: if I were in uniform or serving in some other official capacity at the time, using the term "President" vs. "President Elect" would be extremely important. As a "journalist"/editor, writing a relatively informal ("unofficial" may be more appropriate word choice here) article covering the subject... not so important, as long as the specific context of the writing is considered (ie, saying "The US President Barack Obama, on December 31, 2008, stated..." would absolutely be wrong).

In terms of factual accuracy however, it's important to go in the complete opposite direction! For example, assuming that what you're mentioning above about Rudi is correct (and you would know better then I), then you should absolutely make an edit to his article.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 10:30, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

(ec)Further clarification: It's not like they will become xBE's tomorrow, it could take upwards of a year for their honours to be awarded. Furthermore, if any of them receive criminal sentences or decline their honours then they're not going to receive them at all. Let's avoid rushing ahead to introduce inaccuracies and remember that this is a work in progress. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 10:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

They have already indicated they will accept the honours, or the announcement would not have been made. Johnbod (talk) 11:50, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

No doubt, but there's many a slip twixt cup and lip as the saying goes. It's all speculative until after they receive the award. -- Derek Ross | Talk 01:34, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Just for clarification, Mr. Stewart has been named to the Order of the British Empire (OBE)- OBE's are NOT entitled to the honorific "Sir" or "Dame". Only Knight Commanders of the British Emprire (KCBO) and above are entitled to be addressed as "Sir" or "Dame", so using "Sir" in the Stewart article is inaccurate either way. Thought that fact might be pertinent here. DaysOfFuturePassed 01:49, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Stewart was already an Officer of the Order of the British Empire; he will be knighted as a Knight Bachelor, hence the slightly confusing combination of "Sir" and "OBE". Waltham, The Duke of 02:34, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

What about Tony Blair, who AFAIK has not collected his Congressional Medal (is it?) after what, 3 years now? Johnbod (talk) 10:46, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Being awarded a Congressional Medal does not involve a change of name or style, and AFAIK though he has not collected it Tony Blair has still been awarded it, whereas Patrick Stewart will not be a knight until the monarch dubs him with a sword, not when it is announced. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 11:32, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

well yea, I did (heavily) qualify my comment above with the fact that I know next to nothing about the specific subject (British honorary titles, or whatever they are). Maybe there's something about this particular subject that makes it especially important, and based on the above three comments that seems to be likely... I was just trying to generally comment about how we tend to be "bitey" when it comes to this area of behavior, is all. Part of the problem is the interface; since these sorts of issues are rather black and white, the info can either be in the article or not be there. I think that it's probably a good idea for "patrollers" to make a real effort to explain themselves in these cases, is all. Do the revert, but post on the talk page and on the users talk page, explaining the deal. Which, incidentally, kudos to CrispMuncher for starting this discussion!
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 11:43, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I may need to revise my opinion. The BBC could always be wrong of course. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 13:56, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

"Has received a knighthood in the honours list" still does not automatically imply "is a knight". If my numbers came up on Saturday then I'd have "won the Lottery", but that wouldn't "make me rich" until I'd actually cashed the cheque. FWIW this comes up on a daily basis on football-related articles (where a player's move to another club may have been agreed in principle but not actually finalised for some time) and the general consensus is that while edit warring over something which appears to be a virtual certainty is a waste of time it is better to be slightly cautious than to be seen to encourage people to post "0-day" material, especially on BLPs. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:27, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

In case no-one clicked the link above, it demonstrates that the BBC is currently reporting the names of those in question as "Sir/Dame X". As we're supposed to follow reliable sources I would have to say we should follow the BBC, unless most other major news agencies are not already using the honorifics. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 10:59, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

That's a matter of style, not a factual contradiction. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:41, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I need an opinion on an idea as it related to policy

I borrowed (and credited, before anyone asks) the userpage design I current have from Phaedriel. She has a system to cycle her today's wikipedian section so that every 24-hours it auto-rotates, and I was considering doing something like that for quotes and thoughts and observation that I like to make occasionally. Before I went forward with the idea I wanted to know if that was frowned on in any respects. TomStar81 (Talk) 06:58, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what part would be objectionable really. Templates like {{QOTD}} are quite popular in fact, so I dare say on-topic stuff would be fine as well (civil, of course). - Jarry1250  18:08, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I will see about putting my idea into effect then. TomStar81 (Talk) 13:32, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:MUSIC

WP:MUSIC is apparently well-embedded (if that's the right expression), but the shortcut doesn't point to WikiProject Music. It points to Misplaced Pages:Notability (music). This is obviously confusing. Is there a technically-adroit way of fixing this? --Kleinzach 05:21, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I was just going to say "fix it", but I see Nihonjoe already reverted you for some strange reason. Not much you can do if people are willing to ignore your input. *shrug*
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 06:51, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

There's nothing strange about it and no one is ignoring any input. Kleinzach changed the shortcut without any discussion, thereby breaking over 30,000 links (I stopped counting at that point) which were trying to point at the notability guideline. That's a problem. I'm fine if the community decides to change it so WP:MUSIC points to WikiProject Music, and a new shortcut such as WP:N-MUSIC is created to take its place. Someone will need to fix all the current redirects and mentions of it, however, before making the switch. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 14:31, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

In the majority case, shortcuts point to policies, guidelines and essays. Shortcuts to WikiProjects start with WP. Therefore WP:MUSIC redirects to guideline about music, and WP:WPMUSIC redirects to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Music. Changing the target of a widely-used redirect is not going to be allowed without prior discussion and a solution for fixing all the links it will break. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 13:31, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

OK, but surely shortcuts should be (and normally are) named appropriately? They won't be used much if they point in unpredictable (unintuitive) directions. No-one could guess that WP:MUSIC would point to a notability guideline. --Kleinzach 03:40, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Well it's not WPMUSIC so you should expect it to go to some music-related policy/guideline/essay, which it does. Shortcuts aren't designed to have ituitive names anyway; how would you know where WP:5P, WP:VPP, WP:BEANS, WP:AFD, WP:A, WP:B, etc. lead without having seen any of those pages before? OrangeDog (τ • ε)

Indeed, I've never seen WP:B and figured it might go to WP:BOLD (which it doesn't). ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 14:54, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

If WP:MUSIC is expected to end up anywhere it would be the MOS (MOS:MUSIC), in my opinion, though I can see how Notability is more important. Surely WP:A would go to WP:ADMIN if intuition is the rule? But it doesn't, so obviously intuition is irrelevent! OTOH, WP:CM, WP:SCIENCE and WP:TRAIN all point to something other than "policies, guidelines and essays", in fact the first two point to Wikiprojects... If consistency were to be had then WP:BOOK should point to Misplaced Pages:Notability (books). Just a thought. --Jubilee♫clipman 10:34, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Changing it now would break the frequent mentions of it (without linkage) in deletion discussions... --Cybercobra (talk) 10:56, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Irony? --Kleinzach 13:21, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

No. Curse the nature of online communication. --Cybercobra (talk) 13:27, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Consistency needn't be had. The point of short-cuts is to cut short the time (and characters) it takes to type a frequently used link. It wouldn't matter if WP:Q went to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration committee. The only person who needs to know where it goes is the person who types it. For those who don't, they can click it, hover over it or look it up in WP:Alphabet soup. In any case, the nature of the system means we can't change any of them without careful bot assistance, even if it did matter. (c.f. Tiny URL) OrangeDog (τ • ε) 18:53, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Fixed it vs. Don't fix it. A fundamental choice between culture (I like WP the way it is) and progress. There are lots of small mistakes in the encyclopedia and we agree (probably because it's easy) that they should be corrected, but there are also some big, systemic failures out there (particularly Misplaced Pages space). If these are not addressed because of bureaucratic inertia then WP simply won't be here in 10 or 20 years time. --Kleinzach 02:21, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

{{mtc}}

Will somebody please help me merging these 3 images to Wikimedia Commons? I can not do it myself.

]
]
]

At Commons there is a category named Steinway & Sons. The 3 images can be added to this category.

Thank you. Fanoftheworld (talk) 09:46, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Third opinion on the use of large quotations in some lists

Hi, I don't know if this is the right place to ask for opinions on this, or even if there is really a right place for that. In any case, it can't hurt....

Quickly put, I would like some third part opinions about the use of large (complete) citations of Medal of Honors as used in:

• List of Puerto Rican recipients of the Medal of Honor,
• Puerto Rican recipients of the Distinguished Service Cross and
• Puerto Rican recipients of the Navy Cross.

Generally speaking, I believe the articles would look more encyclopedic without them. Maybe Wikisource is a better place for this amount of primary-source material.

Thanks, --Damiens.rf 12:19, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the examples that you've provided here, I don't see any problem. Those look like excellent articles, actually. If the text from the citations were the only text in the article, or even if it were the predominant text in the article, then I might be troubled by it, but I don't see an issue with these examples. My only real quibble is that the footnoting for the citations should probably not use the ref/cite system, but that's an unrelated formatting issue.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 12:33, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

But the quotations are the predominant text in the article! The first article is 44kb long with the quotations, but just 12kb without them (72% of quotations). The second one is 44kb long with the quotations, and also just 12kb without them (also 72% made of quotations). The third is 20kb with the quotations and 8kb without them (60% of quotations). --Damiens.rf 12:54, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't share your view (obviously). I don't see the size of the text with or without the quotes as being meaningful of anything, other then the simple fact that the quotes contain a certain amount of text. The quoted text itself is visually distinct, making it easy enough to see the difference between the actual article content vs. the quoted citations. I don't see how removing the quoted text would make those articles better, and I actually think that removing it would make them worse due to the fact that it would be more difficult to understand what was being discussed.

Do you have a personal aversion to this text, or something? I'm scratching my head here slightly, wondering what your motivation in attacking the text of these award citations is.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 15:31, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• I would like to express my opinion to this regard. The articles are excellent and the text from the citations are well sourced and imperative to the article. They tell us exactly why the people mentioned are mentioned or included in the article in the first place. I would like to note that these questions may not be as innocent as they seem and that it is believed by some that User: Damiens has problems with Puerto Rican related articles, see: and . Antonio Martin (talk) 15:42, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• I see no issues with the quotes per se. As usual, {{cquote}} is misused; see the template documentation for the MOS references. The list format is different from other articles in the series such as List of African-American Medal of Honor recipients, but that should be worked out at WP:MILHIST. The DSC and NC are not inherently notable, so lists should be only of notable persons. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  20:41, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• I think the quotes are too much, not necessarily in the context of being non-free content, but that we are not a memorial. It is certainly important to note who received these awards and for why, but the full quote of the "why" is so pontificating as to lose its encyclopedic value in this regard. --MASEM (t) 20:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

  FYI: the text for US military medal citations are PD, as documents of the US Federal Government.
  — V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 22:25, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

  If they are PD, then move the quotes to a nice table over at Wikisource, and only include enough here to understand the merits, with sister links to the Wikisource information. --MASEM (t) 14:05, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• It seems to me a lot of the quoted material could be paraphrased without damaging the integrity of the article. The article as-is does seem to carry a lot of flavor of a WP:MEMORIAL rather than a typical encyclopedia entry. Shereth 22:42, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

  Well, I guess if you guys are really concerned about this then one of you should move this discussion to the talk page there and get the attention of the contributors to that page. I don't share the same concerns obviously, but I'm also not particularly interested in the article.
  — V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 14:38, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• • The point is to raise the issue to a larger audience, since the audience of those articles' talk pages is just the users that wrote the article themselves (whose opinions understandably favor the status quo). Also, the issue appears as a pattern in many articles, and not just one. --Damiens.rf 17:13, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Why not move the quotes to Wikisource and link to them? Woogee (talk) 20:09, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

That's what I believe is the right thing to do. --Damiens.rf 20:26, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• The articles would be best served by leaving the citation intact. Were these not lists, your argument might carry more weight (though not enough, in my opinion). However, worrying about the size of the article is meaningless, and there really aren't any concerns as far as I can tell in regards to MOS or copyright. Simply put, removing them makes the articles worse. Moving them to Wikisource might also set a bad precedent... there are many thousands (possibly even five digits) of articles, mostly biographies, that contain the text of citation for awards given by the United States military... would we want to move them all? In any case, this is best in the turf of WP:MILHIST. I also have to point out that there is some discussion at Misplaced Pages:An#Damiens.rf_block_review regarding whether or not this issue is simply the latest in a pattern of harassment by User:Damiens.rf; while it doesn't have a direct impact on the issue, we should keep in mind the possibility of bad faith. bahamut0013_deeds 20:17, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

• Just how many articles on Misplaced Pages need to be improved- couldn't we attempt that instead? These lists read well- so let sleeping dogs lie. It is inventing an issue that does exist. I wouldn't want to pen such an article- but if I did I would really resent them being destroyed by wiki-meddling. Just how many prolific editors have we lost due to wiki harrassment? I keep on thinking of putting together a todo list of more important tasks that talented wiki wonks could do that don't involve pointless destruction.--ClemRutter (talk) 21:41, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

• Just because there are other articles that need to be improved, it doesn't mean we shouldn't address this one now.

  I do believe there IS an issue with these articles are they are now, as User:Masem and User:Shereth expresses above, what goes inline with what is said on the guideline Misplaced Pages:Quotations. To "quote" the relevant passages:

  1. "...while quotations are an indispensable part of Misplaced Pages, try not to overuse them. Too many quotes take away from the encyclopedic feel of Misplaced Pages. Also, editors should avoid long quotations if they can keep them short."
  2. "...they also crowd the actual article and remove attention from other information."
  3. "Quotations should generally be worked into the article text, so as not to inhibit the pace, flow and organization of the article."
  4. "When not to use quotations: ": "the article is beginning to look like Wikiquote. (...) Misplaced Pages is, at its core, an encyclopedia, and not an opportunity to list the best and worst quotations pertaining to an article's subject."
  5. "If there are many quotations, please move them to Wikiquote and place a Wikiquote template on the article to inform readers that there are relevant quotations regarding the subject."
  6. "When not to use quotations": "the quotation is being used to substitute rhetorical language in place of more neutral, dispassionate tone preferred for encyclopedias. This can be a backdoor method of inserting a non-neutral treatment"

  Is this essay generally agreed or mostly ignored? --Damiens.rf 14:34, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Please, opinions based on the policy cited are welcome (conjectures about editor's intentions are not). I'll be doing the Wikisource thing within some days... any concrete objection? --Damiens.rf 14:51, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, there are very concrete objections, all mentioned above. There is even some discussion of appropriate changes to make discussed above.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 20:13, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Before mentioning Misplaced Pages:Quotations, the discussion was mostly based on personal taste (on both sides), and salted with some opinions about editors and not about the content. I wish I could hear objections that take in account what is said on Misplaced Pages:Quotations.

What are the "appropriate changes" you mention? The move to Wikisource? --Damiens.rf 03:40, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

It's unfortunate the issue seems so poisoned that we can't really discuss it on arguments grounded on policies, guidelines, etc.. --Damiens.rf 13:37, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Chair of the Mediation Committee

This notice is to formally announce that I will be retiring from the role as chair of the Mediation Committee, effective from 10 January 2010. After discussion on the committee's mailing list, it has been decided that the position of chair will be divided between two users; Seddon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Xavexgoem (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log).

May I take this opportunity to thank members of the committee for their hard work and cooperation this year. May I also thank all members of the community who have used the mediation process over the last year - without your good faith in entrusting us to help solve your disputes there would be no Mediation Committee and I've enjoyed interacting with each and every one of you. It's been an absolute pleasure to serve as the chair of the committee over the last year and in many ways I'm sad that I'm leaving the role. That said, I'm looking forward to the new found enthusiasm that Seddom and Xavexgoem will no doubt bring. I wish them both the best of luck.

Regards,

Ryan Postlethwaite 01:45, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

A copyvio query: the same man puts the same text in Misplaced Pages and in a web page.

• If John writes a web page, and later Peter copies it into a Misplaced Pages article, then Peter would commit a copyvio. But what if the same man puts the same text in a web page and in a Misplaced Pages page? Does he commit a "copyvio against himself?" The Misplaced Pages version is public use; the version in his web page is his copyright. The two contradict. I suspect that we need a ruling here. (In such situations, usually the Misplaced Pages page is also liable to be deleted as db-spam, but that is incidental.) Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:21, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• No, it's not a copyvio. :) However, he needs to verify his identity in accordance with WP:IOWN. Contributors to Misplaced Pages do not relinquish copyright in their works, but merely liberally license them for reuse. (In accordance with WP:C: "You retain copyright to materials you contribute to Misplaced Pages, text and media. Copyright is never transferred to Misplaced Pages. You can later republish and relicense them in any way you like. However, you can never retract or alter the license for copies of materials that you place here; these copies will remain so licensed until they enter the public domain when your copyright expires (currently some decades after an author's death)." --Moonriddengirl 14:28, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Naming conventions across multiple articles

Is there any policy/guideline for how to deal with names that vary from different pieces of media across multiple articles. The issue that brought this up at WP:WikiProject Anime and Manga was the naming of Roronoa Zoro from One Piece who also goes by the name Roronoa Zolo in several pieces of media. It was decided for the main article and the character list to use Zoro as the more widely recognized English name after an exhaustive debate. However One Piece: Grand Adventure uses Zolo as the game when it was released in the US uses Zolo.陣内_Jinnai 22:55, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you all mangas use the same colour for their characters- or use a different color(sic). You need to treat this with a degree of licence. (That was humour!) --ClemRutter (talk) 21:53, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

They use different ones, but one of them has precedence by reliable source commentary and for one character, creative concept info. However, as each piece is licensed individually and over different periods of time, they use different names depending upon who licensed them.

This isn't the same as a dialogue differences because in Japan they all have the same spelling. There is also reliable source commentary that often favors one over the other, even when they review different forms of media. Ocassionally they'll make mention of the other name in such a way that its obvious that they don't agree with the translation.陣内_Jinnai 22:02, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

My deep apologies if this is in the wrong place but I have no idea where else to put it...

This is a small note to draw attention to the massive overuse of the opinions of film critic Roger Ebert in talking about the reception of films. He pops up in pretty much every article and one gets the opinion that he is some sort of demi god within the film industry whose opinions on every picture are somehow particularly important. This is not a troll post, I love Wiki and am extremly gratefull to have it around, I am simply trying to draw this massive inbalance to SOMEONES attention....we shall see. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.97.250.112 (talk) 23:11, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I've noticed this too; might be worth pointing out to the members of WikiProject Films.  Skomorokh  23:15, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

He is a national film critic and one of the few who has reviewed almost every film. As such, his reviews are likely to be found in many articles (not every, not by a long shot). -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 23:17, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

What do you really expect to be done, though? As a tertiary source we're completely reliant on what reliable sources publish. Since Ebert is so widely published it should hardly be surprising that he is often sourced here. Don't blame us, blame all the newspapers, televisions networks, magazines, and other publishers...
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 23:18, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The point is that there may be undue weight to this source, something which would both be our fault and something that we could fix.  Skomorokh  23:21, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

...I'd be really careful with such a view. If it's OK to be selective of sources in such a manner, then that's just begging to start POV warfare. If a source is reliable I don't see how it helps to then say that using it more then some subjective amount is problematic. The New York Times is cited all over the place as well after all, are we giving them undue weight as well?
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 23:44, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Not saying I agree with the undue argument, but the NYT isn't 1 indivisual.陣内_Jinnai 00:13, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Heh... neither is Ebert. Do you really believe that he personally writes all of his reviews all on his own, without editorial oversite? Do you think that so many other publishers would use his opinion if it wasn't backed up by editorial support?
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 00:30, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 18:31, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

signed "Jim Emerson, Editor" —Mike Allen 19:06, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Still doesn't prove that he doesn't write every review himself. An editor doesn't have to agree with the views expressed. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 12:48, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Ignoring the conspiracy theorist here, Ebert is one of the most wide-read and most best-known film critics so it's hard to avoid him. For all the article I focus on, I do toss him in on occasion, but no more then any other critic. For example, to get notable critics who appear in major press, I use Rotten Tomatoes' links for "Top Critics" usually. (example). Ebert also sometimes goes far and away from the general concensus of other critics views on films. (his review for Knowing for example). It's up to editors to decide when to use what critics to display a view that is not WP:NPOV. Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:35, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Roger Ebert is a major film critic. Presenting his opinion, when available, in a NPOV manner is appropriate in an article on a film. Even though I don't always agree with Ebert, I believe that intentionally suppressing his opinions would violate NPOV. Dekkappai (talk) 20:41, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

When citing reviews of film critics in an article's "Critical response" or "Reception" section, WP:MOSFILM asks that we use reliable sources to show how the film was received and it goes on to state that "sources that are regarded as reliable are professional film critics"; Roger Ebert most certainly is a professional film critic. WP:RS separately goes on to state that a reliable source would be either "published materials with a reliable publication process" (Chicago Sun-Times certainly meets this criterion) or "authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject in question" (Ebert certainly meets this criterion when the subject in question is a film). Being a nationally known film critic whose expertise is not usually questioned, Roger Ebert's reviews are normally listed at the very top of the "External reviews" section for every film on IMDb and he is also included in the "Top Critics" list on the aggregate review website Rotten Tomatoes. WP:UNDUE does not apply when using Ebert's reviews to show how any individual film was received because the determination (if there is one) of whether the film was received well or poorly will usually be made based on the percentage of positive reviews on Rotten Tomatoes or Metacritic, not based on Ebert's opinion of the film. Ie, Synecdoche, New York was named by Roger Ebert as the best film of the decade yet the Misplaced Pages article clearly shows a 67% positive rating on Rotten Tomatoes and 67/100 on Metacritic while selectively citing both positive and negative reviews. The issue of WP:UNDUE would only be a problem if we decided to use Ebert's opinion as the ultimate authority on how well the film is received which we certainly do not as per the previous example. Please also keep in mind that we never attempt to even suggest to a reader that a film was good or that it was cinematic drivel, we simply quote others who have done so and we make sure that the ones we quote are authoritative, reliable and well-known to readers (WP:NF, among other things, presumes a film notable if it receives multiple reviews from "nationally known critics") and Ebert meets all of this criteria. His opinion should not be used to skew an otherwise neutral article, it's should not be used out of context and should not be used to deliver a statement of fact. It should only ever be used as an undisguised personal opinion and that's the exact purpose and usage of his reviews. If used in such context, there should be absolutely no reason to discontinue or reduce the amount of film articles where his opinion is used because such usage is encouraged by WP:RS and WP:MOSFILM and does not in any way violate WP:NPOV or any other policy or guideline that might be concerned with Ebert as a source. Big Bird (talk • contribs) 21:09, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about other people, but I find long paragraphs to make for tiresome reading. Paragraph breaks can be made using a hard return. Grins. – RJH (talk) 21:16, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

As Collectonian stated on the film project, I concur that reviews should be listed in chronological order. That should solve all potential issues. Hopefully. —Mike Allen 23:58, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Announcement: Silliest wikilink of the month awards

Users are advised that His Grace the Duke of Waltham has announced the Silliest wikilink of the month awards at WT:LINK. There are five monthly winners (August–December 2009) and an overall winner for 2009. The Duke's private secretary, Harold Cartwright, has emphasised that no correspondence will be entered into regarding the awards: His Grace's decision is final. Tony (talk) 10:29, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

How's this for a silly wikilink? ;) -- œ 11:21, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Ah the old "you can't click me no matter how you try" "link"... problem is: it isn't a link and so can't even be a silly link... :P --Jubilee♫clipman 15:42, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Help reading the artist's name on a drawing

Hello. I wonder if anyone can tell me what the artist's name on File:Head drawinga.gif is? To me it looks like H. A. Cronit, but I'm not finding anyone of that name. Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:24, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I know this is not what you asked, but, do you believe we can use this image under WP:NFCC? The "purpose of use" stated on the rationale doesn't seem convincing to me. --Damiens.rf 14:57, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I think it reads "Hal Ronk." Bus stop (talk) 15:06, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

"H A Cronk" with a C or a G under that?

Language help

Alconétar Bridge currently applies for GA status and being the main contributor, I am looking for some help with how to put one sentence (lead, 2nd paragraph). Which version sounds best?

1. The Alconétar Bridge carried the Roman road Via de la Plata, the most important north-south connection in western Hispania, on a length of almost 300 m across the largest river of the Iberian peninsula.
2. The ca. 300 m long Alconétar Bridge lay at the junction of the Roman road Via de la Plata, the most important north-south connection in western Hispania, with the Tajo, the largest river of the Iberian peninsula.
3. The ca. 300 m long Alconétar Bridge served as a crossing point for the Roman road Via de la Plata, the most important north-south connection in western Hispania, over the Tajo, the largest river of the Iberian peninsula.

Well, all a bit awkward, not? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 19:01, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I prefer a slightly modified version of 3) : "The almost 300 m long Alconétar Bridge served as a crossing point for the Roman Via de la Plata, the most important north-south connection in western Hispania, over the Tajo, the largest river of the Iberian peninsula." Can't put my finger on why I like it like that, but hey, I do. - Jarry1250  19:30, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Take the 300 meter length out of the sentence and put it later in the introduction - it's one fact too many. Then I think the first sentence is best. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 19:31, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

New sockpuppet investigations clerks needed

Hi folks. We have a need for some new clerks at WP:SPI, the sockpuppet investigations process. At SPI, clerks help the checkusers maintain the page by keeping cases organized, archiving them, tagging confirmed socks, endorsing checkuser requests and occasionally declining them. All final decisions, of course, rest with the checkusers. Both administrators and non-administrators can be trainees and full clerks. For example, Nathan, one of the clerks who has been there the longest, is not an administrator.

A few things to keep in mind if you think you might like to help us keep the sock menace down: (a) we generally don't take trainees with a recent block log or history of disruptive editing, (b) we would prefer trainees who can be regularly active and (c) we often use the IRC channel #wikipedia-en-spi on Freenode, which can be accessed using one of these tools or links, for coordination purposes. Please e-mail myself, Nathan, MuZemike or PeterSymonds if you're interested.

On behalf of the SPI clerk team, NW (Talk) 03:53, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Major project possibly coming down the pike.

I have been speaking with one of the principals of the New Georgia Encyclopedia, an online-only collection of about 2,200 professionally written and well-sourced articles relating to the state of Georgia, and about 5,000 corresponding images, about potentially migrating their entire collection to Misplaced Pages. My rough estimate is that this would include at least a thousand new articles, and the remainder would need to be maintained in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Georgia (U.S. state) project space until they could be fully merged in to the appropriate existing articles. In each case, proper attribution to both the origin project and the original authors would need to be maintained in the article, along with a link to the original article. Three to four of the authors who have worked on those articles would also likely be joining Misplaced Pages, and that WikiProject specifically, in order to watch these articles as they are transitioned into our system (I have already cautioned them not to expect to be able to assert ownership of the content once the articles are here, and that objections to changes will have to be addressed by discussion and generating a consensus). If the remaining principles of the New Georgia Encyclopedia are agreeable to our incorporation of their work, this could provide substantial new opportunities for Misplaced Pages to incorporate similar works, and could generate some good publicity regarding the reliability and utility of Misplaced Pages. They may wish to begin by allowing us to import a small number of articles as test cases, to see how they fare in terms of vandalism and other issues that may arise in this process. Please let me know if you have any particular concerns or thoughts about this, as I will hopefully be having a conference call with all of the principles within the next week. Cheers! bd2412 T 02:01, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Ace! @harej 02:05, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Hopefully, but if they agree to this, we have to be able to pull this off in a professional manner - a clean, smooth transition, and a quick response to any vandalism (including, really especially, sneaky vandalism) to a set of articles the inclusion of which may garner some publicity. bd2412 T 02:12, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Presumably the images would go to Commons? Is someone co-ordinating that side of things? Carcharoth (talk) 07:17, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I may have jumped the gun on the images - they come with different licensing issues, so right now we're only looking at the articles themselves. bd2412 T 23:48, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Here is a bit of a status update as well. The party with whom I have been speaking is circulating a memorandum of understanding among his colleagues spelling out the situation, particularly the attribution to which the NGE and its individual article authors would be entitled, and the treatment those articles would receive here on Misplaced Pages. I've been asked to recommend a handful of articles to be imported to Misplaced Pages or merged into existing Misplaced Pages articles, as a test of how this transition will work. I plan on picking about a dozen and proposing them to my counterpart this evening. bd2412 T 00:51, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

British-Pathé news clips archive

I recently discovered the British-Pathé website/archive of thousands of news clips and stock video footage from the 1890s to the 1970s, and want to ask here where it would be best to post to draw people's attention to what looks like an under-used resource (about 130 pages link to that website at the moment), especially for the clips from the first half of the 20th century, where there is lots of historical stuff likely not available elsewhere. The website is here. As they are a proprietary site, selling access to the high-resolution versions of the clips (the free previews are low-resolution), what I propose to do is:

• (1) Post to Misplaced Pages talk:External links/Noticeboard about when linking to these clips is appropriate (done here).
• (2) Post to several WikiProjects that might be interested in searching for clips to add to the external links of some articles (here and here).
• (3) Add some links to clips myself for some articles I've been working on (three diffs).
• (4) Add the British-Pathé Film Archive to Misplaced Pages pages that list similar resources (not quite right, but tried here and here).

What I wanted to ask here was whether anyone knows what the page on Misplaced Pages is that lists similar news/video archives? And can anyone think of which WikiProjects would be interested in knowing about this? And are there other places on Misplaced Pages where I could tell more people about this resource? Carcharoth (talk) 06:27, 14 January 2010 (UTC) Updated with diffs and links. 08:12, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

MedCab backlog

Just dropping a note here that the Mediation Cabal is backlogged, so we need help. Please see Misplaced Pages talk:Mediation Cabal#Backlog for details about the cases we have available. Thanks, The Wordsmith 17:52, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Editing from a DS

From the Wikpediholic test, I've gotten to thinking that this is possible. I'd like to do so. Any help? Buggie111 (talk) 01:18, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I think I remember that as edited with a DS (but I'm not sure, ask to him). Cdlt, VIGNERON * 10:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

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