Misplaced Pages

User talk:Gavin.collins/Archive 10: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
< User talk:Gavin.collins Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 09:10, 4 February 2010 editGavin.collins (talk | contribs)18,503 edits →Can articles be written on an area of a subject by difficulty-level?← Previous edit Revision as of 09:11, 4 February 2010 edit undoGavin.collins (talk | contribs)18,503 edits →Can articles be written on an area of a subject by difficulty-level?Next edit →
Line 233: Line 233:
::The key term to note here is "meaningful distinction". If the reasons for making a distiction are ], there is no meaningful distiction between topics, then one of them has to be content fork which was created for a reason known only to the editor who created it. For without ], there is no rationale for inclusion other than subjective importance, which is not a basis for inclusion supported by any policy or guildeline in Wikipeia.<br />The fact is that "Introduction to.." type articles are catered for by , and fall outside the scope of en.Misplaced Pages. --] (]|] 08:55, 3 February 2010 (UTC) ::The key term to note here is "meaningful distinction". If the reasons for making a distiction are ], there is no meaningful distiction between topics, then one of them has to be content fork which was created for a reason known only to the editor who created it. For without ], there is no rationale for inclusion other than subjective importance, which is not a basis for inclusion supported by any policy or guildeline in Wikipeia.<br />The fact is that "Introduction to.." type articles are catered for by , and fall outside the scope of en.Misplaced Pages. --] (]|] 08:55, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
:::Because I was quoted I just had to weigh in. I ''mostly'' agree with what is said above, but with the proviso that if a distinction can be drawn between introductory and advanced topics that is well established ''outside'' of Misplaced Pages, then you can have two different articles. To give an extreme case, ] is limited to a simplified case as an introduction, while ] deals with more complex topics. A little more debatably, college curricula may split "introductory organic chemistry" from "advanced organic chemistry", with different textbooks catering to each. The distinction is objective enough that an author's "advanced" textbook is meant to be used by second-year students regardless of what book they followed in the first year. We ''can'' organize content by difficulty in such cases, because there is a (somewhat) objective way to decide which article each thing should go in that won't change every time a few new editors enter the mix. Of course, it is still very possible that this is not the best way we can think of to organize the content - deciding how to split up the content of an ever-changing article is sometimes more of an art than almost anything else we do on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 01:15, 4 February 2010 (UTC) :::Because I was quoted I just had to weigh in. I ''mostly'' agree with what is said above, but with the proviso that if a distinction can be drawn between introductory and advanced topics that is well established ''outside'' of Misplaced Pages, then you can have two different articles. To give an extreme case, ] is limited to a simplified case as an introduction, while ] deals with more complex topics. A little more debatably, college curricula may split "introductory organic chemistry" from "advanced organic chemistry", with different textbooks catering to each. The distinction is objective enough that an author's "advanced" textbook is meant to be used by second-year students regardless of what book they followed in the first year. We ''can'' organize content by difficulty in such cases, because there is a (somewhat) objective way to decide which article each thing should go in that won't change every time a few new editors enter the mix. Of course, it is still very possible that this is not the best way we can think of to organize the content - deciding how to split up the content of an ever-changing article is sometimes more of an art than almost anything else we do on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 01:15, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
::::I think this the argument is the basis for The Transhumanist's view that outlines, indroductory and other types of ]/]/] type articles that are familiar features of paper based publications. However, ''Misplaced Pages is not a paper encyclopedia'', so it does not need to organise its content in such a ] fashion; there are several mechanisms, such as ] that are much more flexible, and are more beneficial because lend themselves to the creation of ] automatically. <br />The second reason why I don't endorse the idea that complex topics should be split into simpler ones is that Misplaced Pages is already broken down between leading articles and sub-topics in accordance with ], which means we don't have to over-ride ], ] or ] to obtain balanced coverage of a particular subject matter.<br />As I see it, the decision to create barebibes outlines that provide no context to the reader and introductory articles that are content forks has always been based on subjective editorial opinion. In paper based publications, the editorial decision to create them has been done to facilitate navigation, just like a table of contents or an index. Misplaced Pages does not need such mechanisms, and so the subjective editorial decisions to create the do not apply. The need for introductions, outlines, prefaces and tables of contents in electronic publications was made redundant by the advent of the ]. --] (]|] 09:10, 4 February 2010 (UTC) ::::I think this the argument is the basis for The Transhumanist's view that outlines, indroductory and other types of ]/]/] type articles that are familiar features of paper based publications. However, ''Misplaced Pages is not a paper encyclopedia'', so it does not need to organise its content in such a ] fashion; there are several mechanisms, such as ] that are much more flexible, and are more beneficial because lend themselves to the creation of ] automatically. <br />The second reason why I don't endorse the idea that complex topics should be split into simpler ones is that Misplaced Pages is already broken down between leading articles and sub-topics in accordance with ], which means we don't have to over-ride ], ] or ] to obtain balanced coverage of a particular subject matter.<br />As I see it, the decision to create barebone outlines that provide no context to the reader and introductory articles that are content forks has always been based on subjective editorial opinion. In paper based publications, the editorial decision to create them has been done to facilitate navigation, just like a table of contents or an index. Misplaced Pages does not need such mechanisms, and so the subjective editorial decisions to create the do not apply. The need for introductions, outlines, prefaces and tables of contents in electronic publications was made redundant by the advent of the ]. --] (]|] 09:10, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Revision as of 09:11, 4 February 2010

Blake's picture of Newton as a divine geometer.
Archives
no archives yet (create)

Some help

Hi Gavin, Was wondering if you can give me some explanation in regard to an accounting concept I am trying to get my head around since you are constantly updating that page. I am learning at school that sales can be made on both cash and credit, with credit being the most dominant form. Does cash sales include credit card sales? I am always confused about credit being the dominant form because I have not seen too many people buy goods and then pay later - credit, sign the invoice they check your history etc. Is this sort of credit sales something like nothing to pay until 2011, no interest etc. commercials I have seen on TV or something else? I asked my classmate and he told me that credit sales are normally made between businesses and not us ordinary consumers. Say for example a steel manufacturer seels its goods to a chair manufacturer - this would be a credit sale. Hopefully you can help me or guide me onto some websites because I am a tad confused about this basic topic. Thanks U8701 (talk) 02:21, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi U8701,
From the perspective of the seller, credit card sales are indeed a form of credit sale, because they don't get their cash imediately - they usually have to wait a short time before the credit card company remits the cash (less credit card fee) to them. The only difference between "credit card sales" and "credit sales" is that the credit card company pays the seller quickly because it takes on the the risk of bad debts, as it is acting as lender to the people who buy goods and then pay later.
Before the age of credit cards, most sellers (even small grocery stores) offered credit directly to their customers and had to take on the risk of bad debt themselves. Nowadays, only wholesalers and larger businesses offer credit directly to their customers, but they have try to mitigate the risk of bad debt by offering credit on legally enforceable credit terms, by paying for credit rating checks, by getting references from their customers, or even taking out insurance against non-payment. Have a look at this slide show for more details of the accounting relating to credit sales. I hope this helps. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 09:22, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Amused.

I'm always amused when I agree strongly with something you say. Just feels odd :-) Best of luck to you! Hobit (talk) 06:36, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Now you have turned from poacher to gamekeeper, you will find yourself agreeing with me more and more. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 11:36, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
:-) I'd say you've changed a fair bit too. Thanks! Hobit (talk) 13:11, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Bibliography page guideline proposal

Hi Gavin,

As you have been involved in the previous discussions about bibliography pages, I thought you should be notified about a formal proposal here. Any constructive contributions would be welcome.

Happy editing,

Neelix (talk) 20:08, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Notability RfC

Hi Gavin, please see my recent restoration of the consensus-supported version of WP:N. Regarding the recent discussion at WT:N, I agree that some sort of RfC is needed in order to establish a consensus regarding the information discussed. Would you be interested in setting it up? If so, how would you like it to be framed? Also crossposted at FT2's, Hiding's, and Masem's talk pages. ThemFromSpace 18:32, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Done --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 00:26, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Ncircle deletion review

Since you were active on the Ncircle page deletion, you might be interested in a speedy delete review of more Ncircle pages created by that same (now banned) user: Sfba (talk) 05:51, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for notifying me. I made a recomendation to delete at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Tim D. Keanini and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Tim D. Keanini. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 12:35, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Accounting model creates value

Thank you very much for the reference. I responded on my talk page.

PennySeven (talk) 13:47, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your thoughtful comments. I responded on my talk page.

PennySeven (talk) 12:56, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much for attempting to understand what I am trying to do. Unfortunately I was not able to explain financial capital maintenance in units of constant purchasing power as authorized by the IASB in the Framework, Par. 104 (a) in 1989 to you.

Thank you for your help.

PennySeven (talk) 17:37, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Wikiquette

I have filed a wikiquette report against you. Since you can not restrain yourself to post comments within the bounds of policy, I will use guidance to resolve the issue one way or another. As you have rejected every call for mediation, that leaves us with RFC's and arbitration. Best regards, Hiding T 16:32, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Here. Tan | 39 16:36, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
In answer to Hiding, if I have annoyed you, then please accept my wholehearted applogy. I am a reasonable editor, and if you come to my talk page with a grievance, I am always happy to set matters to right. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 17:19, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Matter closed. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 22:59, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Gavin, you have yet to strike every instance of stating I had not done something I patently had. Perhaps in this spirit of being "happy to set matters to right", you will amend all those statements and admit your error. Hiding T 23:01, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
You will have to give me a clue as to what you are refering to in the first instance. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 23:03, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages talk:Notability/Archive 37. You could also correct the misleading RFC you have called at Misplaced Pages talk:Notability in the spirit of being "happy to set matters to right". Hiding T 00:04, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
You will have to give me more specifics of what you are refering to, as Archive 37 is quite large. Is there a particular edit you can steer me to and explain what the problems is? --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 08:57, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
There's so many incidentson that page it would be rather tiresome to list them all. Maybe, in a demonstration of the spirit of being "happy to set matters to right", you'll show willing in identifying them. If not, we'll be aware of how dedicated you are to doing the right thing. Hiding T 14:44, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
I am not going to play games with you, Hiding. You are going back up your complaints with details of the specific edits in support of your accusations. I can't guess what you mean, and I can't respond to vague and generalised accusations which may or may not be justified. If you have a complaint, meet me half way, make it explicit and spell it out. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 14:58, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Not playing games. That you have failed to click the link and read my complaint is hardly my problem. This situation is now untenable. Hiding T 15:41, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Forgive me Hiding, but I am still not getting it. In what sense is the RFC disingenuous, and to whom? --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 16:02, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm confused too. You've announced this prominently on the RfC and added what appear to be non-sensical replies to participants in the discussion stating the RfC is "disingenuous". What do you mean? Protonk (talk) 21:33, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Some serious advice and warning

Gavin, Please listen. You made a bad call proposing a merger between a long article and a long sub article believing it to be a POV fork. That it was a bad call should be clear to you now from the responses (I think 12-1 against last time I looked even though the article is contraversial and there are plenty of editors who disagree with each other on principle, they all united to disagree with you), even if you haven't got the logic. You are upset that the proposal was not taken seriously enough and that someone dismissed it out of hand and removed the tag at about 4-0 against I think under WP:SNOW. These are normal human reactions. Instead though, when you reflect your mindset should be apologetic for wasting editor time and also for disrupting the actual encyclopaedic content by the inclusion of an inappropriate tag in article space. You need to drop the outrage. In my view seeking mediation on this issue with the person who removed the tag amounts to disruptive wikidrama. Personally, I am quite prepared to block you for disruptive wikidrama because it distracts from things which matter. However I am prepared to discuss the issue with you personally some more if you like (here, I will watch your page although I am busy so perhaps only daily) and try to explain further anything which is unclear to you. If you feel this (friendly I hope) block warning is inappropriate you are welcome to take it to AN/I, clearly personally I could not block you for that but I cannot guarantee that another admin won't decide that continuing in that vein is also disruptive wikidrama and block you. Please do not take this the wrong way. I have been in a position of righteous indignation too and feeling disrepected is not pleasant. I am sure you are a well intentioned and reasonable kind of person, probably much like me. But please take time to reflect --BozMo talk 09:31, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

As I have explained William M. Connolley, I would prefer to treat the process of RFC seperate from the issues which RFC address seperate. We have ample time to discuss the merger and its merits (or lack of), but in the meantime, I would very much like to see the merger templates restored for the duration of the RFC. I think this is a reasonable request. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 09:39, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
As a (hopefully) friendly FYI, my initial reaction to the merger proposal was that you had not actually read the climate change article, and I was utterly baffled as to why you were proposing a merger in an RfC... a better and less-time-consuming-and-less-dramatic way to do it in the future would be through a standard "merge" tagging. I understand that you would like to treat the process separately from the content, but at least in my point of view you sort of jumped the gun on the RfC process, which is typically used to resolve stalemated debates. I don't mean to sound harsh: we all do slip up and wiki-rules are many and convoluted. But if you indeed haven't read the climate change and global warming articles, it might be a good time to skim them in order to have that in the back of your mind while discussing future changes. Thank you, Awickert (talk) 08:17, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Regarding your statement at Eusebeus' talk page

Regarding this edit, , perhaps you could explain why you have failed to assume good faith regarding my edits, and why you have disregarded the notion of collegiate and collaborative editing, and instead decided to make accusations? As to my intentions, they are to collaborate and reach consensus, per policy. Hiding T 15:39, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Hiding, I spoke honestly to you. The problem, as I see it, is that it is not clear to me why you effectively you have watered down the guideline, or at least, that is how I perceive your involvement. I admit assuming bad faith on my part, and the reason is I don't understand how the changes you have made to WP:FICT improve the guideline in any way I don't see them as having any consistency with existing policies and guidelines, and I perceive your actions as an attempt to construct an exemption for fictional topics from article inclusion criteria based on notability as set out in WP:GNG. I appologise wholeheartedly for my weakness, and my lack of good faith, and if there is anything I can do to make amends, let me know.
I have said this before, and I say it again: where every you wish to depart from existing policies and guidelines, I would be greatful if would be explicit where these departures are being made, why you think they will be of benefit, and provide examples where ever possible to illustrate the principles you wish to include in guideline. I don't claim to have all the answers, but in my defence I am clear and I set out my stall for all to see and understand, and I wish other editors like yourself would do the same, rather than just rubbishing my views and proposals for what ever undeclared reason are motivating them to do so. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 21:55, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Reply

Hello, Gavin.collins. You have new messages at Eusebeus's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

3RR

Please be aware of WP:3RR, which you are in danger of violating on Scientific opinion on climate change William M. Connolley (talk) 12:23, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Blocked

You have been blocked from editing for a short time to prevent further disruption caused by your engagement in an edit war. During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest the block by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}} below.

Template:Z9

The edit you made here, far from being supported by consensus at the talkpage, was rejected in the section Talk:Scientific opinion on climate change#What is to be done?. In accordance with Talk:Scientific opinion on climate change#Locked, I have blocked you for WP:edit warring for 24 hours. - 2/0 (cont.) 18:28, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Gavin.collins (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

Blocking an editor for adding reliable secondary sources to an article is unreasonable and runs against the principles and spirit of Misplaced Pages's content policies. There is no evidence that the addition of reliable secondary sources represents an edit war. Discussions have been conducted in a courteous and dignified fashion, without any breach of Misplaced Pages's behavioural policy. Whilst some editors have argued that it runs contrary to consensus, that does not mean or imply that the my edit was not carried out in good faith or that a block is justified in any way.

Decline reason:

The block looks quite valid, there was strong opposition expressed to this edit but you went ahead anyway. I think you are not listening to other people, and will keep running into trouble until you start considering the possibility you might be in the wrong. BozMo talk 19:17, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Gavin.collins (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

I would like an independent admin to review the block please

Decline reason:

I agree with BozMo (corrected, sorry, got names mixed up). Hersfold 19:31, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Gavin - I think there is some merit to your procedural claim, but you are certainly pushing uphill actively against a nearly unanimous agreement by others in the article and talk page. The article needs an actual RFC - to establish an enforceable consensus - and has not had one. But I think that it's reached the point that the burden of proof is on you.

You and the others are somewhat talking past each other, on topics such as whether non-scientific (political research, etc) secondary sources are "good sources" in the sense of appropriate and relevant for that particular article. Your basic point, that the source exists and is reliable - is not controvertable. But we do have guidelines beyond those, relative to fringe viewpoints, undue weight, etc.

A meta-examination of the consensus from outside is not irrelevant - but it's also different, and where and how it appears is a legitimate topic for consensus discussion.

I have recommended to 2/0 that a real RFC - with real, enforcable proposals etc - be done. The fake RFC and the poll attempts in the archives are not acceptable substitutes. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:59, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

If I had seen at least one reasonable objection along those that the sources I added where fringe viewpoints, or gave undue weight, I would agree with you. But unless I am mistaken, the sources are reasonably balanced and give due weight to different view points - in fact they are solid gold sources in my view, because they provide context to the reader, whereas nothing in the the current lead provides any context at all. I am not trying to push a particular view point about climate change here, but I do strongly object to Misplaced Pages's content policies being ignored, for without such reliable secondary sources, this article (and others like it) are little more than content forks, with only a title or a hat note based on orginal research to differentiate between each other. If I was pushing uphill, I felt the strength of Misplaced Pages's content policies behind me.
Sooner or later, someone will be brave enough to write a good lead for this article. I am just sorry that I am not allowed to do so. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 20:16, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Be aware that GWH's opinion that the RFC was fake is a minority view. Please don't rely on it William M. Connolley (talk) 16:21, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks

Hi,

I appreciate your help to bring in reliable sources for SOoCC and perhaps share your frustration with being blocked. I have faith that time will allow for a NPOV in the article. Sincerely, Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 16:33, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Heroninos Archive

Updated DYK query On December 24, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Heroninos Archive, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Shubinator (talk) 00:30, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Dan Willis

Please refrain from making comments simply to prevent a discussion from being archived. Such edits may be considered disruptive. Thank you for your cooperation. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:09, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Your desire to archive the discussion about the article's notability is obviously very strong, so to keep you happy, I won't contest the issue. Just remember you do not own the article, and that I or any other edtor could restate the discussion at any time if they wish. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 09:40, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

fiction

Gavin, are you prepared to work for the acceptance of some compromise such as suggested in my remarks on NOT FICTION? (i.e, accept fuller content in exchange for fewer individual articles on fictional elements)  ? DGG ( talk ) 19:48, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I am not and have responded at WT:FICT#Combinations and groups of articles about a fictional work. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 17:39, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
I admit to complete puzzlement. MASEM & I have, from somewhat different positions, been trying to get some agreement on this. Whatever we may want, there are only a few possibilities for how this can go on.Leaving aside fighting , which I do not intend & I hope nobody else does either, and disengaging, which seems very unlikely, that leaves compromise, or argument. Argument has gotten us nowhere, and I do not see that it is likely to. That leaves compromise, which is the only way likely to get consensus. anyone who wants to develop these topics in any direction ought to want to compromise and do work, rather than argue. If you'd like to communicate off wiki, I'm always going to be available. DGG ( talk ) 14:51, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
I think that you are igornoring the fact that the concept of notability is a set of inclusion criteria which allows compromise. If you suggesting that a watering down of the inclusion criteria that are generally accepted, then its not compromise, it is an attempt to construct an exemption for fictional topics from notability. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 09:02, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

check out this thread at the village pump?

I thought you'd be interested since it revives this discussion we had in July at Misplaced Pages Talk:Content forking. (I don't suggest you spend too much time re-reading the old thread, since I've clarified and re-stated the issues in the meantime.)

cheers, Andrew Gradman /WP:Hornbook 21:11, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I have commented there and I will be putting forward a proposal regarding content forking at WT:NPOV shortly. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 10:23, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Re:Speedy deletion of Playing to Win

Not that I actually created this article to begin with, but whatever the case I've redirected it to Little River Band. I suggest next time it might be a good idea to check the edit history of the article (i.e., who did what) before you start issuing SD warnings. TheRetroGuy (talk) 09:36, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for notifying me. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 09:44, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
No worries. Actually, as that article's been about for two or three years, it might have been better to have added a {{PROD}} to it or opened an AFD debate. This would give other Wikipedians a chance to review it and comment on the notability, etc. Cheers TheRetroGuy (talk) 09:50, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I see that its too late to rescue Playing to Win from speedy delete. I thought notablity was established by virtue of it being an album by a notable band, Little River Band (LRB), with a notable lead singer, John Farnham. The article is certainly a stub but then so are many of LRB's later albums' articles: is this the first to be deleted? If I'd known it was going to be proposed for deletion then I would have voted against it.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 11:39, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

It is not deleteted, merely redirected. If you can establish notability for this album in its own right, you can reinstate it. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 11:55, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
In that case consider WP:NALBUMS with In general, if the musician or ensemble that recorded an album is considered notable, then officially released albums may have sufficient notability to have individual articles on Misplaced Pages. Both Farnham (2003) and Little River Band (2004) are ARIA Hall of Fame inductees. That makes them highly notable in Australian music—please re-instate the article.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 21:28, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't subscribe to the views expressed in WP:NALBUMS, which as a basis for the inclusion is too subjective to be credible. In the absence of any evidence that a topic has actually notable in accordance with WP:GNG, then there is no rationale for its inclusion as a standalone article. Clearly the WP:BURDEN to provide reliable secondary sources remains. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 21:36, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't understand your continued objections: ARIA are fully independent from LRB & Farnham. I've re-instated the article.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 21:47, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I think you do, as I note you have added some sources, which is a big improvement. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 08:29, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Nice to see this article restored and expanded. I redirected it so it wouldn't get the chop and in the hope that someone would improve it. Cheers TheRetroGuy (talk) 14:29, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Indaba Music - Your Comments

Please note the changes to Indaba Music. The press sources are both independent and reliable. Now they are also listed in a way that makes them easy to read and understand as such. They are in no way self-promotion as they are not connected to the business being discussed. Talkin bout chicken (talk) 15:37, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

The problem I have with this article is that its subject matter (the company) is not the subject of any significant coverage, and news sources, whilst they may be reliable sources, are little more than routine announcements in the form of content provided by the company itself (they all seem to feature comments from Daniel Zaccagnino, a director) that are not evidence of notability in accordance with WP:SPAM. It seems to me that this article that should be about a company is merely being used to promote the company's website and provide some publicity for its directors. Self-promotion does not to provide evidence that the company is notable in accordanc with WP:CORP; there has to be evidence that the company has been "noted" by sources outside the company. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 21:22, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Requesting action Gavin.collins

I have raised a climate change probation request for enforcement citing you at Misplaced Pages:General_sanctions/Climate_change_probation/Requests_for_enforcement#Gavin.collins Dmcq (talk) 21:15, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure what a probation request is, or why it would be warranted. If it is something to do with discussing the status of the article Scientific opinion on climate change, then I have no concerns. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 22:16, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Please just follow the link and have a look. I have asked for a topic ban on you for the business you've been going on about in that article's talk page. Dmcq (talk)
I think you will find that discussing the merits or demerits article on its talk page is considered to be acceptable most everywhere on Misplaced Pages, and for this reason, I think a topic ban would be over the top. If there is anything that has upset you in our discussions that have upset you at personal level, let me know, as perhaps I can address them here. You will find me an entirely reasonable editor. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 22:53, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Result of the abovelinked discussion: Gavin.collins (talk · contribs) is now pursuing dispute resolution in an appropriate venue beyond Talk:Scientific opinion on climate change. He is cautioned to drop this particular issue at that talkpage at least until the escalated discussion reaches consensus.
I think that your participation at WP:OR/N indicates that you are leaving the disruptive pattern in favor of appropriately requesting additional input. While that discussion plays out, please do not raise, argue, or discuss the same issue at Talk:Scientific opinion on climate change or make related edits to Scientific opinion on climate change. Thank you. - 2/0 (cont.) 22:59, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Disruptive or not, the ban has the effect of sweeping my criticisms under the rug, as nothing will come of discussing the problem of original research at another venue. Now that the criticisms are "out of sight, out of mind", you will not have burden yourself with my concerns again. However, the editor waring and editorial disputes will continue for a long as the article Scientific opinion on climate change is defined in terms of original research.--Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 08:59, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


Can articles be written on an area of a subject by difficulty-level?

Dear Gavin,

Does an article on a portion of a topic, by difficulty level, require proof of notability?

No.

Can articles include difficulty-level indicators in their titles?

Yes.

In the case of basic topic lists, "basic" simply means "introductory-level".

Some other introductory-level articles, with the difficulty-level descriptor embedded in their titles, include:

Note: two of them are featured articles! That's a pretty good indicator of community acceptance.

Side note: Keep in mind that none of the authors sought (nor had to seek) permission or approval to write these articles. They just entered the titles and bingo! And once enough of them were written, they emerged as a new class of article: Introduction articles. The same concept of development applies to outline articles as a class.

The issue of having articles covering various difficulty levels has been discussed before:

You can provide an introduction to almost any subject. The idea of proving an introduction's notability is ludicrous and irrelevant, because the article isn't covering the nature of introductions of the subject but is actually presenting an introduction to the subject. The word in the title pertains to the nature of the article and not to the nature of the subject. Article type indicators are a growing trend on Misplaced Pages. Fighting innovation of this kind is futile, like taking a walk during a hurricane.

I hope the above explanation helps.

The Transhumanist    01:20, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

My view is that these are all content forks, as there should only be one exposition of one particular subject. The key is the the title: "Introduction to..." is not the recognised name of any subject matter in accordance with WP:NAME. For instance Geography is a widely recognised article topic for which there is a substantial body of sources that indicate its name and subject matter are recognised by the world at large. However, you won't find any sources that show List of basic geography topics, Outline of geography or Introduction to geography are seperate, distinct and notable article topics in their own right, because their subject matter and their sources are the same as the article Geography. Just so that you know this is not my own particular view, read this:
I think this proposal would add much confusion to what is only a slightly confusing name for the policy. A "content fork" is mean to mean a split of identical content to two different articles, without attempting to sort out a valid difference between the one and the other. And specifically, because editor POV is not supposed to affect the article, that is not a valid difference. The policy is self-evident from the nature of Misplaced Pages: without setting meaningful distinctions between what articles cover, there would be one "Article" split into three million parts all covering everything at random. It also extends naturally to improperly segregated "Criticism" sections automatically, because sections of an article likewise should be distinguished by valid differences; so the article should be separated in terms of the major real-world activities/ideas/processes it addresses, not the opinions different groups of editors have about each individual detail. The bottom line is that when content is organized into articles or sections, it should be divided according to some rational, encyclopedic set of subdivisions. Wnt (talk) 21:52, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
The key term to note here is "meaningful distinction". If the reasons for making a distiction are purely subjective, there is no meaningful distiction between topics, then one of them has to be content fork which was created for a reason known only to the editor who created it. For without verifiable evidence of notability, there is no rationale for inclusion other than subjective importance, which is not a basis for inclusion supported by any policy or guildeline in Wikipeia.
The fact is that "Introduction to.." type articles are catered for by Simple English Misplaced Pages, and fall outside the scope of en.Misplaced Pages. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 08:55, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Because I was quoted I just had to weigh in. I mostly agree with what is said above, but with the proviso that if a distinction can be drawn between introductory and advanced topics that is well established outside of Misplaced Pages, then you can have two different articles. To give an extreme case, special relativity is limited to a simplified case as an introduction, while general relativity deals with more complex topics. A little more debatably, college curricula may split "introductory organic chemistry" from "advanced organic chemistry", with different textbooks catering to each. The distinction is objective enough that an author's "advanced" textbook is meant to be used by second-year students regardless of what book they followed in the first year. We can organize content by difficulty in such cases, because there is a (somewhat) objective way to decide which article each thing should go in that won't change every time a few new editors enter the mix. Of course, it is still very possible that this is not the best way we can think of to organize the content - deciding how to split up the content of an ever-changing article is sometimes more of an art than almost anything else we do on Misplaced Pages. Wnt (talk) 01:15, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
I think this the argument is the basis for The Transhumanist's view that outlines, indroductory and other types of Propædia/Micropædia/Macropædia type articles that are familiar features of paper based publications. However, Misplaced Pages is not a paper encyclopedia, so it does not need to organise its content in such a pedantic fashion; there are several mechanisms, such as categories that are much more flexible, and are more beneficial because lend themselves to the creation of taxonomies automatically.
The second reason why I don't endorse the idea that complex topics should be split into simpler ones is that Misplaced Pages is already broken down between leading articles and sub-topics in accordance with Misplaced Pages:Summary style, which means we don't have to over-ride WP:AVOIDSPLIT, WP:CFORK or WP:UNDUE to obtain balanced coverage of a particular subject matter.
As I see it, the decision to create barebone outlines that provide no context to the reader and introductory articles that are content forks has always been based on subjective editorial opinion. In paper based publications, the editorial decision to create them has been done to facilitate navigation, just like a table of contents or an index. Misplaced Pages does not need such mechanisms, and so the subjective editorial decisions to create the do not apply. The need for introductions, outlines, prefaces and tables of contents in electronic publications was made redundant by the advent of the wiki. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 09:10, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
  1. "Winners by Award: Hall of Fame". Australian Recording Industry Association. Retrieved 22 January 2010.