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Macedonia request for comment

Since you have in the past taken part in related discussions, this comes as a notification that the Centralized discussion page set up to decide on a comprehensive naming convention about Macedonia-related naming practices is now inviting comments on a number of competing proposals from the community. Please register your opinions on the RfC subpages 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.

Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:45, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok

Ok, I am sorry; but you have to stop reverting in bad faith my edits. You may request inlines and I will give you. Reverting my edits in bad faith, is not better than calling you like that. Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:49, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

There is no quid pro quo here. And why do insist on calling my reverts of you "bad faith"? They are not bad faith. On Origin of the Albanians, for example, I explained to you my reasoning on the talk page. I could also say the same thing about your reverts of me, but you don't see me acting like that. --Athenean (talk) 17:42, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Interestedinfairness

Just to let you know that I have reported Interestedinfairness here. --Cinéma C 18:44, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Additional information needed on Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Interestedinfairness

Hello. Thank you for filing Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Interestedinfairness. This is an automated notice to inform you that the case is currently missing a code letter, which indicates to checkusers why a check is valid. Please revisit the page and add this. Sincerely, SPCUClerkbot (talk) 19:06, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I think we have another Interestedinfairness: User:Tibetian.. --Cinéma C 17:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely. I was about to post on ANI myself, but I'll let you do the honors. He also pretty much admitted to being the IP that was disrupting the Kosovo talkpage. This is starting to become very disruptive. --Athenean (talk) 19:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Is that where we report Checkuser requests? I've never done that before though :S --Cinéma C 01:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

My internet was down, otherwise I would have done it already. To report socks, it's best to go to WP:RfCU. If you've never done this before, it's best that I do it, and you can learn how do it by watching me (cause he'll be back again). --Athenean (talk) 06:45, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I've checked it out, and yea.. it was best that you reported it, I wouldn't have known what to do :S You pretty much gave the strongest evidence, but I'll take a look if I can add anything to that. I hope these disruptions will stop, and I'm glad we agree on that. --Cinéma C 14:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

So this is not the first case you open in vain, right? How long do you want to play this game? Just stop it please, your accusations make no sense at all. --Tibetian (talk) 12:06, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Hey

Hey, why have you reverted my edit on the Kosovo Viyalet page? My edit broke no Misplaced Pages rules. Your explanation in the revert section was in my opinion inadequate and assuming bad faith. Please provide one for me here. Thanks, (Interestedinfairness (talk) 23:35, 10 July 2009 (UTC)).

High

For your tireless contribution and your efforts in keeping a good faith policy over your noble work, I suggest your nomination as a knight-administrator to the Old Order Of The Good Faith (O.O.O.T.G.F.). Congratulations. --Factuarius (talk) 17:43, 14 July 2009 (UTC) (Some work to the tower may needed before the initiation ceremony)

Ha ha, thanks! --Athenean (talk) 18:02, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Greek Epirotes

I was thinking that in order to avoid confusion, there should be an article about Greek Epirotes, while the EPirotes article should be about all ethnic groups that have lived in epirus. It is the best solution. --Sarandioti (talk) 21:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

No, that sounds like a total content fork. See WP:FORK. And as far as I know, I have never seen any sources mention such a thing as "Albanian Epirotes". --Athenean (talk) 21:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

You still do not understand that "Epirote" is not a national term. Epirote=Epirote not Albanian or Greek exclusively. --Sarandioti (talk) 21:44, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

That is your own opinion. On the other hand, I have sources (4 of them) that attest to the exact opposite of what you are saying. I have yet to see a source that uses the term "Epirote" in a non-Greek or Albanian context. --Athenean (talk) 21:46, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

You know very well they are not even close to reliable. Greek and totally unreliable sources, is all you brought, friend. Nothing more. Or do you actually think that in 2002 as one of your sources state there were 280,000 greeks in Albania, of whom only ~30,000 voted the greek minority party in 2009. Or is greek author Κασαββετης more reliable? --Sarandioti (talk) 21:55, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't you ever get tired of repeating the same ORguments over and over? --Athenean (talk) 21:57, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

As long as you repeat the same unreliable sources of Κασαββετης CO. I have no problem repeating those same arguemnts that show the unreliability of your arguments. And you still haven't answered. --Sarandioti (talk) 22:04, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Aigest, Sarandioti, I Pakapshem, a Pristina Kosovar and a Gechingen!? Albanian. This is not contribution, this is an Albanian crusade against you. Is there any way to avoid this demonstration of brutal force in POV-pushing to a wiki article? Just wonder. --Factuarius (talk) 23:08, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Sources on "Epirus" in a non-Greek or Albanian context. ], ], ] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guildenrich (talk • contribs) 20:35, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Pontos

Btw how is Pontos?--Sarandioti (talk) 19:04, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Just want to thank you for your help in Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus (reached 'ga'). Let's see what's next on the 'ga' list.Alexikoua (talk) 06:44, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Notice of possible ARBMAC sanctions

In a 2007 arbitration case, administrators were given the power to impose discretionary sanctions on any user editing Balkans-related articles in a disruptive way. If you engage in further inappropriate behaviour in this area, you may be placed under sanctions including blocks, a revert limitation or an article ban. Thank you. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 00:34, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Kyrenia/Girne

Just to let you know that there is now a proper request to move the article back to Kyrenia --> Talk:Girne#Requested move. Green Giant (talk) 03:13, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

...

Athenean, I believe if we can resolve our differences here, there will be less disruption in the articles. What do you think? -- Mttll (talk) 20:07, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

What do you propose? I'm listening. --Athenean (talk) 20:10, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Let's start with the position of peripheral countries with respect to Europe. Also, let's keep it simple. -- Mttll (talk) 20:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

That sounds very general to me, but ok. Do you have a specific proposal for a specific article? --Athenean (talk) 20:46, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'm talking about something very general. In articles concerning Europe in any way, I have basically two definitions; one of them is this , and the other this

Sometimes an article uses them both like here and I find that inconsistent and hypocritical. Do you see what my point is? -- Mttll (talk) 21:22, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't see the "hypocrisy" you're talking about. The definition of the European continent in physical geography is clear. It is that map you have posted above. In articles that have a strictly geographical context, we should stick to the strictly geographical definition. So if Turkey's wine growing regions are in Anatolia, then they should be listed in Asia. Same with Cyprus. The definition of Europe in political geography is more complex and fuzzy. --Athenean (talk) 21:31, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

About hypocrisy, do you not see that Cyprus and Georgia are listed under Europe? -- Mttll (talk) 21:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

In that case, move them under "Asia". I will not object to that. But what I would object to is using that as an excuse to move Turkey's wine growing regions to Europe. That is simply geographically incorrect, plain and simple. Next. --Athenean (talk) 22:05, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

It would be a valid excuse though, one could assume this definition was used . Btw, can you help me out in that article now that you understand and agree with what I'm saying? -- Mttll (talk) 08:33, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? There is no valid excuse (and i use that word in its most negative connotation), it is geographically incorrect, period. The wine-growing regions of Turkey are in the Asian side, so they stay there. If you feel so strongly about Cyprus and Georgia, feel free to move them, I won't stop you. But it ends there. --Athenean (talk) 07:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me, but if this is a clear cut geographical matter, how then Cyprus can ever be listed under Europe? No need to be aggressive, btw. -- Mttll (talk) 19:31, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not being aggressive, sorry if I cam across that way. Like I said, within the wine-growing regions context, I have no problem listing Cyprus under Asia. It seems to me you are having trouble with two different users on that article, so you might want to discuss it with them. --Athenean (talk) 20:55, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Rollback

Copy of my comments from WP:PERM Pedro :  Chat  20:52, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

 Done But with caution. This right really is not a big deal but does have some potential to damage. I note your historical blocks and your talk. I also note that you have reverted edits in the past with clear edit summary and have engaged in much discussion around your areas of interest. I'd advise extreme caution with the tool; clearly not productive edits are fine but continue to manually revert anything otherwise with the explnatory edit summaries your are used to. Please also note any admin can remove this tool at anytime if used poorly. See the main rollback page for more.

Understood, thank you. I only plan to use it in cases of obvious vandalism across multiple articles. If there is even the slightest doubt, I will refrain from using it. Thank you once again. --Athenean (talk) 20:55, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure you will. Happy editing! Pedro :  Chat  20:59, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Reporting repeated disruptions

You might like to know that I have reported 3 users (Lontech, Sulmues, Spanishboy2006) who are violating Misplaced Pages consensus on Kosovo to the ArbCom probation enforcement page. Feel free to leave any comments, if you'd like. All the best, --Cinéma C 02:21, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi there. I found an interesting collection of references on a page titled ALBANIAN HISTORIANS: ALBANIANS DO NOT DESCEND FROM ILLYRIANS (http://www.geocities.com/aia_skenderbeg/albanian_sources.html). What do you think of these references, and if you agree, we could try adding them to the appropriate articles, providing a more NPOV perspective on the issue. --Cinéma C 05:06, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Interesting, I'll look into it. We have to be careful with geocities-type websites, though. I tend to use google books, which gives printed material and as such is much harder to challenge. I have used material I have found on google books to make a number of changes to the Origin of the Albanians article. Let me know what you think. I also have a hunch this article is going to be targeted by nationalists in the near future. Take care, --Athenean (talk) 05:14, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

sockpuppetry by User:Pantepoptes

good pick up. I had my suspicions too. LibStar (talk) 00:16, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. We should keep an eye out. He will almost certainly be back. --Athenean (talk) 06:23, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

yes one of the least subtle POV pushers I've ever seen. and resorts to personal attacks whenever you revert his changes. LibStar (talk) 07:40, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Epirus (ancient state)

hellο there! Ι've recently created this article and made a wp:dyk prοpοsal. Βut there is a debate οn the hοοk. Yοur view wοuld be vital.thanksAlexikoua (talk) 20:04, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

ARBMAC restrictions

Under the terms of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia I am placing you on a one revert per week limitation on all articles within the area of conflict defined in that case. You are prohibited from making more than one reversion per week per article, not including obvious vandalism. A reversion is any edit that substantially restores the article to prior content, whether or not it is a reversion in the purely technical sense. All reversions must be discussed on the article talk page. Violations will result in escalating blocks. You may request to have the 1RR limit reviewed or lifted after 3 months. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 18:32, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

To me, this seems like the only option to get you to engage strictly in talk page discussion rather than edit warring. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 18:32, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

LOL

A couple users didn't agree... and noted yours and your (friends) connected editors have violated 3RR as noted on the R1a1 history. Your and your friends were overturned because we agreed to be balanced, and not one-sided like you. Your making threats and POV pushing with your incorrect assertions of the figures, Trying to have an Eastern Europe origin and YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW THE ALPHABET or YOUR ARE PERPETUATING VANDALISM (i.e Your edits with the Central Asia, Then Eastern Europe, The South Asia LOL ) Let's see here, main Region is Asia (southern part) and somehow the eastern part of Europe is ether Sandwich in between or ahead???? Yeah keep that in mind when you put your foot in your mouth. I will always be here protecting the integrity of Misplaced Pages, Regardless. Cosmos416 12:04, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Greek genocide

Just a note to say thank you for promptly reacting to vandalism and other mallacious attacks on the Greek genocide page. Your contributions are appreciated. Bebek101 (talk) 17:11, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Athenean/evidence

If you don't mind, I'm going to comment-out the {{RFCU}} template there so that your subpage doesn't get categorized under open SPI cases awaiting clerk approval. Thank you, MuZemike 15:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure, thanks for the heads up. --Athenean (talk) 17:01, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I was searching for 3 days this spi case in order to find a single evidence that makes Alarichus inccocent and a different person from Sarandioti, but fruitless. I'm curious to see his convincing arguments.Alexikoua (talk) 07:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Already there

List of ancient cities in Illyria mapped tooMegistias (talk) 23:55, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

You have been reported

Sources are very clear and concise by Aigest. They have page numbers and ISBN numbers as well. Your nationalistic POV pushing has gone too far.--I Pakapshem (talk) 00:22, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Origin of the Albanians

We were editing at the same time it seems and I removed this reference you added. Sorry! We can try to reinsert, but I also removed the sentence it was attached to for the simple reason that it was not needed: the whole article makes clear already that no one is certain that Albanian descends directly from Illyrian. Presumably though, this reference was arguing more than just that?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:12, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for writing me. I was about to write to you. If you ask me, I think the sentence and ref should stay. Whether or not the Albanian language is of Illyrian stock is important to the article, and I don't think it is repeated elsewhere in the article. We can re-add it with either point #4 or #5 (I'm leaning towards 5). Thanks again.--Athenean (talk) 21:16, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Self-published book

I'm working on compiling a book containing information about almost all Non-indigenous ethnic groups living or working in Pakistan. The population of a particular ethnic group would be obtain respectively from their diplomatic missions in Pakistan including regions with significant populations, languages spoken and religious affiliations. I'm not very good with writing so it would be great, if you would like to collaborate with me.--116.71.53.25 (talk) 06:00, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Ancient Greece

I believe it's time to improve this article. Any help would be vital.Alexikoua (talk) 04:54, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree, it is high time that article was improved. I am going to start gathering sources. I think we should use Ancient Egypt, which is FA, as a model.

Nice

Hmm, nice of you to warn me, but I've made a single revert today and one yesterday (a different one). --Laveol 21:17, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Tag-teaming is never acceptable. Even a single revert can be considered edit-warring if it's part of tag-teaming. --Athenean (talk) 21:19, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that was necessary, Athenean. It's pretty hypocritical to warn an user who has just warned another user and backed up every single of his two edits with solid arguments. You should probably turn to Megistias, he's the one with the three reverts in a little more than 24 hours.

P.S. I fail to see how a single revert can be considered part of tag-teaming. You do know that a single revert is done by a single user, right? Think about it. Todor→Bozhinov 21:22, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

And how exactly is it tag-teaming? I've expressed my views on the subject, so has Todor. We're not a team and have our own right of editing, no? --Laveol 21:24, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

(ec) You and Laveol are both edit-warring and tag-teaming against Megistias. Come on, pretend, we know what's going on. We're all experienced users here. I've got a good mind to notify Moreschi about what's been going on in Thracians. --Athenean (talk) 21:27, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

And how exactly is it tag-teaming? I've expressed my views on the subject, so has Todor. We're not a team and have our own right of editing, no? --Laveol 21:24, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Let's ask Moreschi and see if he thinks you are tag-teaming, shall we? --Athenean (talk) 21:27, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Please don't threaten me with justice :) You sound like Moreschi is going to come over with a razor-sharp chainsaw and teach me not to misbehave ever again! :D Misplaced Pages doesn't work that way: the ultimate goal of a discussion is to reach a decision that works, not to turn to the big bad admins to crush a rebellion. Todor→Bozhinov 21:41, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not threatening you Todor, chill. We are all friends here. I just see a rather heated edit-war brewing in that article and think that notifying Moreschi would help. He was instrumental in pacifying a similar edit-war in Orpheus and an even worse one on Souliotes. --Athenean (talk) 21:47, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't take me too seriously, mate, I tend to make a bad joke or two :) But really, you needn't have warned me or Laveol, it was pretty apparent it was Megistias who was being disruptive and acting against consensus. Todor→Bozhinov 12:46, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

c-e

Hi there! Just wanna ask you if you have time for c-e job on Ioannis Giagkos, some sentences sound somewhat weird to me, but could be mine idea...Alexikoua (talk) 23:19, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Sure thing. --Athenean (talk) 23:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Cyprus GA

As someone who's worked on the Cyprus articles, you might be interested in following the GA recommendations at http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Cyprus/GA1. Best, Vizjim (talk) 08:43, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. --Athenean (talk) 18:09, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Sure, I'll do my best, just added some citations in history section.Alexikoua (talk) 10:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Vikos-Aoos National Park GA

It's GA now, thanks a lot for the hand. It seems quite fair since it fell victim by disruptive spa activity in past.Alexikoua (talk) 14:09, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Illyrians Albanians

Hi,

I can provide you with a copy of the PDF file which refers to Albanians as Illyrians. The source is from: Maps Issued by the United States Government Bureaus January 1913. I can provide you with the file if you don't have access to the database where the source is located. Please let me know if you would like a copy or print screen of the content in question. Enjoy the rest of the weekend. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hpqgoog (talk • contribs) 10:24, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Antwerp Fine

I have nothing against the guy. Do you have any links pointing to an online full-view, restricted or even unavailable electronic version of the book? Guildenrich (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:50, 9 November 2009 (UTC).

I am not, but that does not mean it is not verifiable. As long as it has an ISBN, it is considered verifiable. --Athenean (talk) 00:10, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Copyright problem help?

Hi. :) We've got a copyright problem listed at Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems/2009 November 7 that has been cycling for a month. We could really use some help from somebody who reads Greek in determining if the article should be deleted. The article is Petroula Christou. It's tagged at the Greek Misplaced Pages as well: el:Πετρούλα_Χρήστου. We've been waiting to see if they delete it, but they haven't done anything definitive with it yet, and I can't read any discussion about it they might have had. Would it be possible for you to take a look at it and see if there's any clue what (if anything) they're doing about it? Alternatively, can you determine if it is an infringement of that source? If it's not convenient, please let me know, and I'll track down somebody else who reads Greek. :) Thanks. --Moonriddengirl 01:36, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any sources in the Greek version. Or any article for that matter. I just see a link to a youtube video and the big copyvio notice. In which case it is a no-brainer. --Athenean (talk) 02:05, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, but the article isn't up for deletion for poor sourcing. It's up for deletion as a copyvio, and in order to delete it under policy as a copyvio I need to be able to verify infringement specifically of this and the infobar on the side of the Youtube page. It looks visually similar, but somebody who can read the text can probably more easily determine how close the two are. As I mention, we had been planning to delete our version if the Greek Misplaced Pages version is deleted, but they've taken no action in a month, and if I can close it out here simply by finding a Greek reader we don't need to keep it hanging around while we wait. Are you able to compare the text? --Moonriddengirl 13:49, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I am. The texts are identical, word for word. It's a cut-and-paste job. --Athenean (talk) 17:21, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much. :) I'll close it accordingly. I appreciate your assistance! --Moonriddengirl 17:57, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

You're welcome! --Athenean (talk) 18:19, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Apollinaire

How come this dummy found IT's way to Misplaced Pages , calling Apollinaire (Moreas' friend and collaborator, by the way) non rs? , , , Guildenrich (talk) 15:00, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

R1a article

Hi. Saw your recent edit to R1a. As a recent editor on the article your perspective on the talk page discussions right now would be appreciated. Things are slightly messy, but a few outside views might work wonders. I am writing to all recent editors of the article.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:05, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to help, but the discussion seems very long and very technical. At which subheading should I begin reading to get up to speed on the dispute? --Athenean (talk) 02:25, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree it looks hard to get into but that is just because of the failed discussions on the talkpage. I have tried to make it easy with a diff, so that you can compare two proposed versions of the R1a article. Most differences of opinion have been to do with wording, and the question of what is encyclopedic. For example, is the word haplogroup jargon that should be removed from this article about a haplogroup? See .--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:06, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Some help

Hi Athenean. I wrote a new article about the Phiale of Megara which in my opinion is a very significant finding about the origin of the ancient Macedonians (together with the Pella curse tablet). Since you are active in the current discussion in the Macedonia (ancient kingdom) discussion and you are interested about could you plz have a look in the Phiale of Megara article? I am not sure what Fut says, but he mark it for speedy deletion. The txt is indeed from the Pella curse tablet talk but I wrote it there also, and then I decided that it would be good as a nucleus of an article, thus the article. In fact the first paragraph of the Contents, dating and significance section is of the prof. O’Neil of the Sydney University, I added the ref, and I am telling that also in the article's txt, so I am not sure what's wrong with it. Can you help me about? Thanks in advance. --Factuarius (talk) 00:11, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Hallo, Ath.. I've created an article about a modern Greek dialect, but I have the feeling that it needs some additional copy-edit job. Can you give a hand, when you have time? Hope your knowledge on linguistics is better than mine. If you find it interesting enough we can propose an appropriate dyk hook.Alexikoua (talk) 21:55, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good. --Athenean (talk) 21:59, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Economopoulos (PS)

Thank you again for your offer. One more request: It would be good if you could type in the actual title of this book, complete with a transcription; and if you can Google more publication details for it, the ISBN would be welcome.

And now I really do have to rush off. See you later at Talk:Nikos Economopoulos, perhaps. -- Hoary (talk) 05:27, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, I'm not sure I understand. Type in where? The title is already in English it seems. Can you please clarify a bit? Best, --Athenean (talk) 06:55, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Although the web page I've linked to (both above and in the article) talks of "Nikos Economopoulos / Magnum 100 photographs, 1979-1999", it depicts a book whose cover says the same thing in Greek and only in Greek, and for the languages of the book the web page specifies just "EL", which I suppose means Greek. So I've no reason to think that "Nikos Economopoulos / Magnum 100 photographs, 1979-1999" is the actual title; instead I guess that it's no more than a nonce gloss of the title. An English gloss is convenient for people who can't guess at the meaning of the original title, but it makes life difficult for people wanting to specify it in (for example) a library OPAC. I'm reluctant to hunt and peck more than a couple of Greek characters: I might get something wrong. If you could type it in correctly, that would be most appreciated. Sorry for not having been clearer the first time. -- Hoary (talk) 10:21, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, I typed the title in Greek in google books (greek version) and the regular google. I got nothing for google books, and for the regular google I just got the Hellenic American Union website and this . The heading for the column all the way on the left is "Code" but I don't see an ISBN anywhere. --Athenean (talk) 19:13, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Actually I guess it's merely a pamphlet rather than a book. Still, now we've proceeded so far: How is Φωτογραφίες best transliterated?

Continuing with the matter of books. . . .

1. That same source also lists something titled Ανάσα η Τέχνη τής Καρδιάς, which surprisingly is published by Polygram. I find only one Google hit for this, but when I click on the page that Google points to it doesn't appear there. Google claims to have cached the page but has not done so, so all that's visible is this snippet:

Hellenic Music download

... αποψεις αψογo! τη συνανταμε για δευτερη φορα σε δικα της τραγουδια μετα απο το "ανασα η τεχνη της καρδιας" το 1996,

...... παραγωγης ενδελεχεια φωτογραφιες νικος οικονομοπουλος ανδρεας σταυρινιδης 1cd 14 τραγουδια διαρκεια: 58:38 ...

www.hellenic-music.com

Can anything at all be inferred from this?

2. What is the book Τα μυστικά των μετοχών της Σοφοκλέους, ISBN 9606604624 (here at vres.gr)? (I have no idea what the title means, but the cover doesn't look like anything else by this photographer, and so I wonder whether it's by somebody completely different who just happens to share the same name.)

3. How about Ho kosmos tōn paidiōn: me aphormē mia phōtographia-- tou Nikou Oikonomopoulou (here at OPAC) -- is it a collection of teen writing with incidental photography by NE? (OCLC does not give the title in Greek script, and googling for both forms of the ISBN given at OCLC suggests that both are wrong.)

4. Or again, Κόκκινη κλωστή κλωσμένη - Λαϊκά παραμύθια και αφηγητές του Αιγαίου (here at vres.gr); does there seem to be a substantial contribution by NE?

5. Apo mēchanēs choros (Από μηχανής χορός) has two ISBN numbers (This page and this one of the retailer Vres.gr). Why is that, and what does the book seem to be about?

Many thanks for any time you can spend on this. -- Hoary (talk) 00:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

• 0. It's best transliterated "Fotografies"
• 1. It's a bunch of google gibberish. I don't think anything can be inferred from it.
• 2. The title translates as "The secrets of Sofokleous St." Sofokleous St. is the street on which the Athens Stock Exchange is located and is a colloquial designation for the stock exchange. The books is about the Athens stock exchange, I doubt it has anything to do with the photographer.
• 3. "The world of children: With photography as a pretext -- by Nikos Oikonomopoulos" Seems like a photo collection by Nikos Oikonomopoulos about a school in Greece.
• 4. "Red thread snapped - Folk talkes and narrators of the Aegean" Illustrated by Nikos Oikonomopoulos. Seems like he has a significant contribution there. His photos illustrate the book.
• 5. "Dance ex machina". A photo album about Balkan Roma wedding dances. It's the same book, although I can't figure out why there's two ISBNs. The only difference between the two is the price.

Hope that helps. Athenean (talk) 04:57, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes it does; many thanks. I've done some quick updating and I'll continue once I've attended to certain real-world commitments. -- Hoary (talk) 05:41, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

And thank you for the follow-ups on numbers 3 and 5. The latter turns out to be simple: one's a paperback and the other's a hardback, or so I read on some web page after posting my question.

Remembering that I'm utterly ignorant of Greek, can you possibly satisfy my casual (not-so-encyclopedic) interest and explain (for dummies) the discrepancy between the initial "Oi" of his Greek name as transcribed, and the initial "E" of his name in roman script? Would the Greek pronunciation be more or less as in (English) "oil", "echo", or "eel"; or is there a dialectal variation?

Another mystery to me is the elusiveness on the web of second-hand copies of his books. But perhaps those who are lucky enough to possess them don't want to get rid of them, or more likely I just haven't a clue where best to look. -- Hoary (talk) 13:57, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I've just got hold of a large and splendid book of the man's photographs. Directly from the Benaki Museum, or anyway via airmail from there. Not cheap, and airmail wasn't either, but I got my money's worth. (And if you too have spare money and shelf space, may I recommend Economopoulos, Photographer.)

In the back are two pages of potted bio and dry facts, Greek on one page, English facing it. Within the Greek ... er, something like bibliography of individual works, there appears Ανάσα, η Τέχνη τής Καρδιάς. Corresponding to it in English is "Breath, the art of the heart, Polygram, Athens 1997." So whatever it is, it's by him. The potted bio doesn't mention music or recordings at all. Mysterious. -- Hoary (talk) 13:20, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Odd indeed. Sorry I don't know enough about the guy to help you. --Athenean (talk) 23:44, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Btw, in response to your previous query, it is pronounced as in "eel". The "o" is silent in the "oi", though it wasn't waaaaay back in the day. Athenean (talk) 23:45, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the pronunciation tip. I think I'm through with interrogating you for now, but Cardinal Fang and I may be back later! -- Hoary (talk) 01:05, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

University

See the reply on my talk page. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 22:59, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Himariote Greek dialect

On December 5, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Himariote Greek dialect, which you recently nominated. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 17:57, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Accession of Turkey to the European Union

Hello Athenean. I noticed your recent revert on this article. I'm commenting only because I've seen this item be reverted before. The Queen is unquestionably giving the opinion of the UK government, i.e. the Prime Minister. (She does not say things like that as a private person). Possibly her comment is not interesting enough to deserve space, but her lack of political power is surely not an issue. Someone who has the patience to search for more citations will surely find that that is the official UK government position. EdJohnston (talk) 20:30, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi Ed. The official British position would be best illustrated with a statement by the Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, rather than the Queen, wouldn't you agree? I'm frankly surprised that that's not already the case. After all, he's the one who attends summits and is part of the decision-making process, not the Queen. Shouldn't be too hard to find a sourced statement by Gordon Brown regarding the UK's position on this matter. I'll look into it. --Athenean (talk) 20:36, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

3m vs. 3,5vs.

Would you mind telling me why you replaced CIA factbook data with your own numbers out of the blue?--Muzakaj (talk) 08:41, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

They aren't "out of the blue". If you had actually bothered to look at the source, I used the numbers from the Albanian national census. In wikipedia, we generally prefer national censi to the CIA world Factbook. That's because the Factbook is a tertiary source, and should only be used as a last resort, when other sources are not available. See WP:PSTS for more details. Look at any other country article, Greece, Turkey, etc...It's always the census. --Athenean (talk) 08:46, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

In case you didn't check the census is old. Saying "approximately" covers the nature of the source.--Muzakaj (talk) 09:22, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		To Athenean the Troll hunter. Even if they grow up like Hydra's heads, Athenean's club shows no mercy.Alexikoua (talk) 22:56, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Middle East Lead section

Hi, I saw you reinstated my edit to the lead of Middle East. It was reverted again so I invited the two reverters to a discussion on the talk page and proposed (hopefully) a compromise sentence that addresses the perceived Eurocentrism. So I'm inviting you to the discussion too. Thanks Jieagles (talk) 00:16, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Τις θερμότερες ευχές μου

Καλές γιορτές, γεμάτες ευτυχία, υγεία, επιτυχία και αγάπη απ' όλους και για όλους. Καλή συνέχεια λοιπόν και μπράβο για τη νηφαλιότητα και τη συγκρότησή σου--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 21:34, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Σ'ευχαρηστώ πολύ, καλές γιωρτές καί σ'εσένα. Ωραίο talkpage btw. Να'σαι καλά αδελφέ, Athenean (talk) 23:13, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh Dear me... now where might I have seen this IP before ? Well it looks like a potato, it swims like a potato and quacks like a potato... Would it be a potato potato?--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 00:37, 22 December 2009 (UTC).

I see you are still dealing with potatoes:, , and potatoes and potatoes and er... potatoes? , , , , , , , , , , , , , most characteristically , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ... and it goes on and on and on. I think you get the picture.

Hmmm... banned you say? ,

Ah, I made a mistake there. The 198 IP is User:Sulmues, who edits unlogged sometimes. I mistakenly thought it was Guildenrich, but it isn't him this time (same POV though). --Athenean (talk) 18:20, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Nah, shear coincidence...--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 18:29, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Nice work! It escaped me. I'm sure Moreschi would be very interested in this. --Athenean (talk) 02:10, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Bulgarisation

Read first the definition of weasel word and POV pushing before making baseless accusations. Also read up on history before denying that Western Thrace was part of Bulgaria between 1913 and 1919. Or that the Greece most of the Bulgarians from the region, many of whom returned in 1941. Kostja (talk) 11:34, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks again for all the high quality contributions

User:Athenean has been identified as an Awesome Wikipedian, and therefore, I've officially declared today as Athenean's day! You have made remarkable contributions to the project, and the editors and readers of those pages are and always will be grateful to you for them. We all look forward to seeing you return and continue in such development. Thank you again for your outstanding efforts at article development. Peace, Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:21, 24 December 2009 (UTC) A record of your Day will always be kept here. Sorry, a bit late this one.

Thanks for great advices!

		The Special Barnstar
		For extraordinary contribution in maintaining NPOV, and for great collaboration with other editors! And for the splendid advices! :) Tadija (talk) 21:55, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the barnstar! It's very nice of you. Best, --Athenean (talk) 00:53, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Let's discuss Konica

Hi Athenean, please see discussion page of Konitsa (Talk:Konitsa). Even though I see that you and Alexikoua feel strongly about this, I think these towns in Chameria have been lived by both Albanians and Greeks historically. It's a lot of mixed population in these places (and I would include Zagoria btw). Excluding the Albanian name of the town isn't nice. sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 21:18, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

User:I Pakapshem

Hello, Athenean. Hate to tell you this, but you missed the mark a bit by reverting his edits on Plaka as being that of a banned user. He isn't banned, only blocked 6 months. I undid your edit for now, and if you would like to discuss this further please come to my talk page. Thanks, Ks0stm If you reply here, please leave me a {{Talkback}} message on my talk page. 02:27, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I was somehow under the impression he was banned for good. Oh well. I suppose I can live with your revert. Thanks for letting me know. Just so you know though, this user has a history of trying to get others to do his reverts for him, since he spends so much time blocked. --Athenean (talk) 02:32, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Chrysoupoli

Dear Athenean,

I want to extra and reliable information about town of Chrysoupoli in Greece. I gave reliable sources and don't want to delete extra information about it from you. It was known as "Sarışaban" during Ottoman rule and was spelled as "Sari Saban" by Greeks during this time. This spelling was arisen from absense letters of "ı" and "ş", which are found in Turkish and Bulgarian alphabets, in Greek alphabet. Equivalents of "ı" and "ş" at Turkish alphabet are "i and sh" in English one and "i" and "s" in Greek one. Aim of Misplaced Pages is giving reliable information as long as, writing about past of it is right for me. You write about former Greek inhabitated places in Turkey and Bulgaria, so that I can write about former Turk inhabitated ones in Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, etc without make heroism. Turks lived in Chrysoupoli until population exchange between Greece and Turkey in 1923 and was replaced with Greeks from regions of Thrace and Black Sea.

Chrysoupoli ("Yellow City" in Greek) was occupied first by Bulgarians in First Balkan War in 1912. It was part of Greece since 11 July 1913 like Kavala, Drama and Serres (firstly occupied by Bulgarians) except Bulgarian occupation between 1941-1944. Its name was renamed as "Sapaioi" in 1913 and was given present name in 1929 like Eleftheroupoli (Pravishte, which was derived from Pravishta in Bulgarian, before 1913 and Pravi between 1913-1929). Former name of it was Sari Saban, which meaned "Yellow Sha'aban" in Turkish. Sha'aban is eight month of Islamic calendar before Ramadan and man name in Islamic World.

Even though I see that you and El Greco feel strongly about this, I think these towns in Greece have been lived by both Turks, Albanians, Bulgarians, Macedonians and Greeks historically. It's a lot of mixed population in these places (especially regions of Epirus and Greek Macedonia). Excluding the Turkish name of them isn't nice. Sincerely,--Cemsentin1 (talk) 20:02, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your note. I will explain to you my position on names. The way it works in Misplaced Pages with names mainly depends on what reliable English-language sources use. By this, I mean sources found from searches in Google Books and Google Scholar, NOT raw Google searches (these contain all kinds of junk). If a large enough, say ~10%, number of sources use a foreign name, then inclusion is warranted. For example, if searches on Google Books and Google Scholar show 1000 hits for "Chrysoupoli" and 100 for "Sarisaban", then I would consider including it somewhere in the article. An exception is Komotini, where the name is included in Turkish in the lead because of the large Turkish population. But a former Turkish population in my opinion is not enough to include the name in Turkish. For cities in Turkey where the Greek name is included, the situation is different: Many reliable sources refer to Izmit as Nicomedia and to Izmir as Smyrna. For a number of reasons, the English speaking world makes far more frequent use of the Greek names for Turkish cities than the Turkish name for Greek cities. Sorry if it seems unfair, but that is how English-language sources are, and we must respect this. Now, if a particular place used to be a Sanjak center, I suppose that information could also be included, although in the History section, not the lead. --Athenean (talk) 22:51, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Northern cyprus

Athenean, there is an IP at Northern Cyprus that is pushing some POV and unreferenced wording that seems too POV for the tone. Could you take a look at it? Thanks. (Taivo (talk) 13:45, 8 January 2010 (UTC))

Seems like Moreschi semied the page before I got out of bed. --Athenean (talk) 20:48, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Afds

Word of advice: if you want to nominate a series of nearly identical articles to afd, please either start with a trial run or one or two to gauge consensus, or consider merging the whole lot into one discussion. Keeps things tidier, and the discussions less fragmented. henrik•talk 12:26, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Gotcha. I was wondering about that myself. Thanks. --Athenean (talk) 18:52, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Maps

Synvet's map is quite good for the purpose of balancing. The map by Stanford has already been denounced as being extremely inaccurate by multiple editors. Look at Demographic history of Macedonia for a large collection of maps from the period and you would see that Stanford's map is a complete outlier for all of them. Kostja (talk) 20:49, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I could say the same thing about the Ravenstein map. Basically, if you're going to have the Ravenstein map somewhere, you should also have the Stanford map. And you still haven't answered my question about why you have the Ravenstein map appear twice in Treaty of San Stefano. Not only is it redundant, but it messes up the article formatting as well. Athenean (talk) 20:52, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

You could say so, but the fact is that the Ravenstein is very similar to the map by Ami Boue, Mackenzie and Irby, Lejean, the Austro Hungarian map and the map of the Slavic Peoples in the Balkans (all of them can be seen here). Most maps published between 1878 and 1912 also mostly agree with Ravenstein . Only the Synvet map suggests a substantial Greek population in the interior of Bulgaria, but certainly no to the extent of Stanford. Kostja (talk) 21:05, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

No, they don't. The Ravenstein map shows Macedonia almost entirely Bulgarian, which none of the other maps do. Which is why you like it so much. And I note you are one revert away from breaking 3RR on several articles, particularly Eleftherios Venizelos, so I suggest you stop. It's pretty clear you are on a single-minded campaign to eradicate the Stanford map simply because you don't like it. Well, it can't happen. Where Ravenstein goes, Stanford goes as well. Both or neither. Enough already. Athenean (talk) 21:10, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The Ravenstein map does miss the large Muslim population in Macedonia. However, what all those maps have in common is that they don't show a significant Greek population north of the Thessaloni-Serres line in Macedonia, or north of a line running approximately from Drama to Dimotika (with the exception of the Maritsa valley up to Edirne, Eastern Thrace and the Black Sea coast. The Synvet map shows a significant Greek population in northern Macedonia and in the Rodopes, and also shows the substantial Muslim population in Bulgaria. Therefore, it's much better for balancing issues than Stanford's map with its Greek majority up to Vitosha and Albanian up to Radomir.

I think it would be better to discuss this issue here, instead of reverting, especially as you're closer than me to breaching the 3RR rule. Kostja (talk) 21:21, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The statement that this maps was used to determine the borders of Bulgaria is not sourced and therefore a Citation needed tag should be placed. Kostja (talk) 21:09, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Which article are you talking about? Athenean (talk) 21:17, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

The Berlin Congress and the Balkans one, but someone has already removed the statements so never mind. I've also added to all articles with the map that Stanford was pro-Greek with the source discussed at Talk:Treaty of San Stefano.

Yes, that's because it was removed by me. I am fine with your edits to the caption, btw. That is exactly what I meant by proper captioning. As long as our readers aren't led into thinking that Stanford is neutral or "correct", there shouldn't be a problem. I'm glad we could resolve this amicably. Athenean (talk) 21:34, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I'm glad as well. I've nothing against controversial information if it's presented in its proper context. Kostja (talk) 21:39, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

So basically the Stanford map is too pro-Greek for your taste, and the Ravenstein map is too pro-Bulgarian for mine. That's why I propose we balance the one with the other, NOT balance Ravenstein with Synvet. Athenean (talk) 21:25, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

As I said above, if an average was made of all maps, the Greek-Bulgarian border line, so to speak, would be somewhere between Ravenstein and Synvet's map. A balanced answer to Stanford's map would be one that declared as Bulgarian all of Macedonia, including Thessaloniki and the Chalkidiki peninsula and extending into Thessaly. We don't have such an absurd map, but that's no reason to include its Greek counterpart.

By the way, you have violated the 3RR rule on Treaty of San Stefano. I don't believe in reporting other users but please don't accuse me either. Kostja (talk) 21:39, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Let's go on an article by article basis. I think you're OK with the reason I've included the Stanford map in Eleftherios Venizelos. I am Ok with your edit to the caption there, so I think that article should be fine now. Let's move on to the Congress of Berlin. As in Eleftherios Venizelos, the Stanford map played an important role there. I'm not saying the map is correct in any way. It is an outlier, but nonetheless the Greek position was based on it. So as long as we include it with a proper caption, as we did in the Venizelos article, and balance it with another map, I don't see why there should be a problem. I don't think I have violated 3RR anywhere, but we have both been edit-warring, so reporting each other will not do any good. Let's have a gentleman's agreement not to undo each other until we reach an understanding. Btw, the Ravenstein map pretty much shows all of Macedonia (region) as Bulgarian, so I would say it is an outlier as well. Athenean (talk) 21:45, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree that confrontations won't get us anywhere. My problem with the usage of the map in the Berlin congress and the Balkans map is that the claim about it being decisive during the Congress is simply not sourced. If such a source is provided, then it would be proper to add them there

In Megali Idea I suggest adding to the caption something to the effect that it was used during the Paris Peace conference to support Greek claims. In Treaty of San Stefano, well it obviously wasn't Stanford's map that was used (looks more like Ravenstein or Leejan) so perhaps it should be included only in connection with the Berlin treaty, if such a connection exists.

Ravenstein's map does show the southern parts of Macedonia as Greek. It does ignore the Muslim population in Bulgaria, something which most other maps and especially Synvet show. So it's an outlier in that sense. However, if you ignore all other ethnicities, Ravenstein does seem (at least to me) rather similar to most others in the Greek Bulgarian distribution. Synvet is again the least Bulgarian POV in this regard.

By the way, in Stanford's map there is a footnote by Greeks which says: "Includes kindred races identified by ties of language and tradition.". This leads me to think that Stanford used a rather broad definition of Greek, resembling the position of the supporters of the Megali idea. This is rather interesting, especially considering the time period when Britain was trying to stem Russian influence in the region and could throw doubts about the neutrality of this map. Kostja (talk) 22:06, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The main problem with Ravenstein's map is that he doesn't use stripes but rather solid colors. As we all now, Macedonia was very multi-ethnic at the time, and a map that doesn't reflect it seems problematic to me. Regarding the Congress of Berlin, I don't see why that needs to be sourced. If Jayron32 says so, that's good enough for me. You are correct that Stanford uses a loose definition of "Greek". That can perhaps be included in the caption. He was, by the way, a highly reputable cartographer back in the day. Ultimately, all these maps reflect the cartographer's judgement of who was what. But at least Stanford uses stripes, which Ravenstein doesn't. --Athenean (talk) 22:20, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't have time to enter the discussion but will add a few things concerning the map of Stanford. First, the censuses in Eastern Rumelia show that the Greeks were by far a minority 40,000 out of 800,000; second, there is not a single peace of evidence to suggest that the Greeks were a majority in many areas shown as predominantly Greek-populated on that particular map. While concerning Macedonia you can find evidence,I don't say that it is 100% credible but still evidences of foreign authors to suggest that the Bulgarians were the largest ethic group in the region. You can see here in table 2.1 on page 41 the population that Erickson uses. Also, you can search for information about the elections of the first Ottoman national assembly in 1908 (I don't have the sources about that here but I know that the Bulgarians were the second largest represented group after the Turks). On the basis of that I think we can claim that Stanford is wrong. --Gligan (talk) 23:27, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I would also like to suggest to move the whole discussion on one place (probably the talk page of the map) and to use mediation in order to clear that issue once and for all. --Gligan (talk) 23:30, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The purpose of these maps is to provide context, not because they are "right" or "wrong". Arguments based on maps' "rightness" and "wrongness" are irrelevant. As long as we explain that the Stanford map is pro-Greek, the reasons it is included in an article, and we balance it with another map, there shouldn't be a problem. I've explained this in more detail at Talk:Treaty of San Stefano. Mediation sounds definitely like a good idea. Athenean (talk) 23:31, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Really

Oh just like Factuarius but I guess you won't warn him now will you. It figures.--Avidius (talk) 19:56, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I didn't see you warning him in any way despite the fact that he was in the same position as me. So it seems that the aim here is to get the editors with different views shutout from the article so that he can continue pushing his POVs because it is alright to claim the Greek Army won the war but when someone dares cite Hall and say the Bulgarian Army had a more decisive role he is being criticized of making a " childish 'major wars' argument".At least we'll know from now on what double standards we should expect around here.--Avidius (talk) 20:40, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

City names

If you add the Greek names in the lead for Pomorie, Nessebar, Tsarevo, which I agree that should be there on the basis of historical Greek presence in those towns; I will add the Bulgarian names of Kastoria and Florina in the lead on the same basis. --Gligan (talk) 23:19, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Florina and Kastoria have multiple relevant foreign names (Bulgarian, Makedonskian, Albanian, Turkish), as well as interesting etymological histories. This is why they have separate name sections, where all relevant foreign names are included and explained. See WP:NCGN. Athenean (talk) 00:55, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

And exactly the same thing can be said about those Bulgarian cities. Kostja (talk) 08:01, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Your edits to artcles of Bulgarian cities

After removing the Bulgarian names of most Greek towns that had them, it's extremely hypocritical of you to add Greek names to Bulgarian towns. The exact same arguments could be used in either case. In both cases the names are mostly of historical interest, so why should be in the lead? But if you think the Greek names are so important, then be so kind to add all the Bulgarian names of cities you took out first. You do know what Misplaced Pages:TEND is? Kostja (talk) 08:00, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

No, there is a world of a difference. Kastoria and Florina have separate Name sections, and multiple relevant foreign names. Neither applies to Mesembria, Sozopolis, and Anchialos. The only relevant foreign name is the Greek one, not is there an interesting etymology, as the Bulgarian name is just corruption of the Greek name or something completely generic. You really need to read WP:NCGN, and not only read but understand it. The reason we include relevant foreign names in the lead is when there is a good likelihood that our readers will have encountered the foreign name. For example, over 1000 sources on Google books refer to "Primorie" as Anchialos. Suppose one of readers reads about the Battle of Anchialos, and wanted to look the place up. He types "Anchialos" and gets redirected to Primorie. How does he know that he is in the right place? He doesn't. And you are lying, in many of these cases the Greek name is NOT in the history section at all, or if it is, it is buried as much as possible and every effort is made to conceal it from our readers. Whereas the Bulgarian name of Kastoria and Florina is clearly displayed and explained in a separate name section at the very top of the article. So if anyone is being TENDentious, it is you. Athenean (talk) 08:51, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I can see the merits of your arguments. However WP:NCGN has two relevant parts: "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted and should be listed in alphabetic order of their respective languages". Therefore I will add the relevant Bulgarian names to Greek towns and villages which don't have a name section, especially if the Greek names are corruptions of Bulgarian names or recently invented. Kostja (talk) 09:23, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Just make sure that they are used by at least 10% of English language sources, and that neutral sources are used. Athenean (talk) 09:26, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, this is not necessary. The only thing needed is that they are "used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place", which is true of all of them. Kostja (talk) 09:34, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

As long as a) that population was substantial (not just a dozen families), and b) neutral, reliable, and verifiable sources are used to establish this. Athenean (talk) 09:36, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Historical or modern names?

Hey there, can you please indicate when the Greek names you add are not in common usage? NCGN is clear that a relevant foreign language name "is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place". I have nothing against retaining Pyrgos, Mesimvria or Anchialos, they are historically relevant and used in sources (in some cases way more than 10%), so they have their place where you inserted them, but from what I gather they are not in common usage in modern Greek. It would be best if you indicate that by adding "formerly" before the Greek name, e.g.:

... Template:Lang-bg; formerly Template:Lang-el, Pyrgos ...

Todor→Bozhinov 10:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Pyrgos is indeed no longer in common usage in Greek, but I know Anchialos is, so I will do this on a case by case basis. Athenean (talk) 18:34, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Burgas is not commonly known or referred to as Pyrgos so I will remove it. You have reasons for Nessebar or Pomorie but not here. --Gligan (talk) 20:42, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Burgas was predominantly inhabited by Greeks in the 19th century, so inclusion of the Greek name in the lead is fully warranted. Read WP:NCGN. Athenean (talk) 20:44, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Can you provide source for that? --Gligan (talk) 21:20, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

From your very own Academy of Sciences, no less . Athenean (talk) 21:36, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Here it is written Greek community, no information whether it was significant or not. Anyways, I asked for source because you did the same. Specially for the case of Burgas I will make a name section because it is a large city. I am grateful for your grammar corrections in the article for the First Bulgarian Empire. I hope for a better cooperation between Bulgarian and Greek editors in the near future and avoiding double standards and hypocrisy is would be a good start (I am speaking generally, don't mean any particular case now). Not to act the way Factuarius does or the way your farmers are doing now ;-) I also expect to respond to my question on the talk page of the Second Empire for the meaning of successor state - whether it is only in timeline or not. --Gligan (talk) 22:32, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

See also here:, R.J. Cramption, Bulgaria, page 433. Greeks were 34% in 1880, that's pretty significant. A separate "Name" section would be fine though (at the top of the article). Best, Athenean (talk) 23:22, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, what I insist in that particular case is not where the fact is mention but to mention that it was the Bulgarian army that fought the major battles because if saying that the major battlefield was in Thrace incompetent readers will surely not think of the Bulgarian army unless it is mentioned. That is as if to mention that the Navy an important role for the war, not particularly the Greek navy. --Gligan (talk) 09:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I understand how you feel, but you can't change Hall's words like that. The statement that the major battles took place in Thrace already implies what you want. This is a fairly specialized article and the people that would read already know a bit of geography and history. I don't think you should underestimate our readers that much. Athenean (talk) 17:32, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely true. And Halls says The Bulgarians and the Ottomans would fight fight the major battles in the First Balkan War in Thrace. So after all he specifically mentions Bulgarians and Ottomans by name. --Gligan (talk) 17:39, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

You are starting again. Where is mentioned that the Bulgarians fought the bulk of the Ottoman army? Do you think that this is not true? In fact do you think that Bulgaria was not the ally who contributed most for the victory? Having in mind that you mention the Greek navy as a crucial factor for the victory I am astonished that you keep removing the fact that Bulgarian army was the key to victory. And that having in mind that it is directly cited from both Hall and Schurman - two of the three authors mentioned in the sources. Stop it already. --Gligan (talk) 22:56, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not "starting again", you are . Mentioning that Thrace was the main theater is more than sufficient, our readers aren't as stupid as you seem to think. You are clearly trying to push the POV that "Teh Bulgarians did all the fightintg!!!1" as many times as possible in the article. Well, it won't work. Once is enough, three times is ridiculous. This is tendentious. Athenean (talk) 23:02, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

So, why do you mention the Greek navy? Why not only navy? The readers have to even dumber not to understand that it is about the Greek navy if you mention "only navy" without saying to whom it belonged. The Greeks are credited by name and the Bulgarians are not. --Gligan (talk) 23:08, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Maybe because Bulgaria had a navy too, even though not much of one? To just say "the navy" is completely ridiculous. No way.Athenean (talk) 23:11, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

The Serbs also sent troops in Thrace so it seems that mentioning the Bulgarians after all makes sense by that logic. I urge you to return the quotes that I have put. And having in mind that in the previous sentence of the naval operations of the Greek fleet it is written that it had dominance over the Aegean, it is quite obvious that the Bulgarian fleet cannot be the one credited. --Gligan (talk) 23:14, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

The Serbian army isn't mentioned anywhere in that paragraph, so I don't see where the problem is. I'm just applying your logic, that's all. If you don't like it, you can always revert to the original version of January 22 and everything will be ok. Athenean (talk) 23:17, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok then, the Bulgarian fleet is not mention in that paragraph as well (I think it is not even mentioned at all in the article). I repeat, it is not fair to credit the Greeks by name and the Bulgarians not. --Gligan (talk) 23:19, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

You have broken 3RR. Revert yourself or I will report you. Athenean (talk) 23:24, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I have not and you are not answering me. So when you do not have answer you just write nonsense. I would like you to answer my last message. --Gligan (talk) 23:27, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

You *have* broken it, want to make a bet? That the Greek navy played a crucial role is not in doubt. To try and hide the word Greek is ridiculous and childish. To say that the Bulgarians did all the fighting however, is debatable, and trying to repeat it throughout the article is POV-pushing and tendentious. Athenean (talk) 23:37, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Please, tell me where I have claimed that the Bulgarians made all the fighting and even more specifically, where I have written in the article that the Bulgarians did all the fighting as you claim above? I say and claim and it is a fact that the Bulgarians fought the bulk of the Ottoman army and the major battle of the war.

"That the Greek navy played a crucial role is not in doubt" - all right; *Now* tell me is there doubt that The Bulgarian army played a crucial role? --Gligan (talk) 23:42, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Athenean or Spartan?

File:This.Is.Sparta_GN.to.film.jpg. It needs the right push to reach the bottom. I wonder if in ancient Athens a disruptive speech was punished the Spartan way too...Alexikoua (talk) 14:51, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Kukush/Kilkis

Do you have sources that the town was almost completely destroyed by the Bulgarians in 10th century and that it flourished particularly during the Byzantine rule and not during the Bulgarian? This might be true, though I have never heard of it, so it would be nice to provide references on the places I had put citation needed. Thank you. --Gligan (talk) 12:25, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Talk Page

Next time you simply remove swaths of text please consider either taking it to the talk page or at least leaving more of an explanation. Piratejosh85 (talk) 02:10, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Update

Just wanted to let you know I read through your comments @ talk:rights and found them to be insightful. I think the correct interpritation of the Code of Hamm. could be found though. Piratejosh85 (talk) 02:30, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll look around and see what I can come up with. Athenean (talk) 03:01, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Balkan Wars

Exactly what gives you the right to remove secondary sources such as "Who are the Macedonians?" or the 1997 Balkan forum? About the population numbers, read WP:Primary before removing a primary source again. The decision about reliable sources doesn't give you a blank check to remove any primary source you don't like. Kostja (talk) 07:54, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

See here: . I repeat again: the RCN decision does not give you the right to remove every information about the destruction of Kilkis. Kostja (talk) 07:58, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

 ??? I suggest you stop now. Athenean (talk) 07:59, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

"The Greeks burned the Bulgarian center of Kilkis". I suggest you stop now. Kostja (talk) 08:01, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I note you have reached 3 reverts *very* quickly. The next step would be to report you. I have nothing more to say. Athenean (talk) 08:03, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

You are also on three reverts. The RCN decision did not permit you to remove everything you didn't like. Kostja (talk) 08:05, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't. In situations such as these, I limit myself to 2 (that's "two") reverts. Count 'em. This why I stopped and took it to RSN. Athenean (talk) 08:07, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Cyprus undo

Hi

Sorry but I undid your revision on the Cyprus page.

It is known (and ref'd) that the Egyptians had the island under their control for some time, and you deleteed that information

It is important to include the greeks as you did, but not at the expense of removing the Egyptians.

thanks

Chaosdruid (talk) 11:47, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

That's fine, thanks. Sorry about that. Athenean (talk) 19:14, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Bulgarian Empire

Next time discuss before making such edits. Bulgarians Khanate is not reasonable because the country was not a Khanate after 865. It is even more ridiculous to call the country Turkic having in mind that it can also be called Slavic. The First Bulgarian State came through a period of metamorphosis gradually uniting the Bulgars and the Slavs to form the Bulgarian people and cannot be called neither Turkic nor Khanate. Was Samuil a ruler of a Turkic Khanate? I think no. Not that it was an Empire in the beginning but the wide-spread and accepted term to describe the country since its foundation up to its fall is First Bulgarian Empire, using Bulgarian Khanate for that is incorrect and unacceptable. Turkic even less. --Gligan (talk) 23:59, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

You need to read better. I'm not calling the empire "Turkic", but the Bulgars, who were Turkic. Second, it is the sources that you brought that call it the Danubian Bulgar Khanate. Yet you are misusing them the call the Empire Bulgarian, when in fact they call it the Danubian Bulgarian Khanate. All I did was correct your blatant misuse of sources. Maybe you should be more careful in choosing your sources next time :) Athenean (talk) 00:06, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

First, the state is Bulgarian like it or not. That is why it is called First Bulgarian Empire, not Bulgar or Slav. So put back Bulgarian before medieval. And then Danube Bulgarian Khanate is absolutely applicable term, but not for the whole period of existence. It has to be mentioned but not in the lead section but in the section for the creation of the state and Asparukh. And concerning the Bulgars, mentioning that they are Tirkic (which I do not deny and in which there is nothing shameful) is unneeded because that is already said (with 10 sources behind, it is quite eye-catching) in the first section. And it belongs there because the state is not fully Bulgar but also Slavic so details about the founding peoples should be written below. --Gligan (talk) 00:13, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

The two sources you brought call it "Danubian Bulgarian Khanate" not "Bulgarian state". If you didn't want "Danubian Bulgarian Khanate" then you shouldn't have used those two sources. You deliberately misused those sources to push your "Bulgarian-state" POV. Next time I suggest you be more careful. The lede should present a summary of the article. Of course we should tell our readers the Bulgars were a Turkic tribe. You are trying to hide this fact and push the "Bulgarian, Bulgarian, Bulgarian" POV wherever possible. Well, you can't have that. No one is calling the state Turkic, but it should be mentioned in the lede that the Bulgars were Turkic. Athenean (talk) 00:19, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Of course our readers will understand that the Bulgars are Turkic people, you shouldn't underestimate them (come on, they know that Bulgaria had a Navy in the Balkan Wars; they would surely guess that the Bulgarians and the Turks fought the major battles even if we do not mention it and they now wouldn't know that the Bulgars are Turkic...). Those sources are used to describe something else and since Danube Khanate is not applicable for the state as a whole it will go down. --Gligan (talk) 00:31, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Nonsense. You can't possibly expect our readers to guess that the Bulgars were Turkic. By the way, you said that mentioning that the Bulgars were Turkic (which I do not deny and in which there is nothing shameful). Then why are you trying so hard to hide this fact? It seems you do somehow find it shameful, that's why you are so opposed to mentioning this simple fact in the lead. Also, your assertion about it being a "Bulgarian" state is nonsense. When the First Bulgarian Empire was formed, there were no Bulgarians, only Bulgars and Slavs. You tried to misuse those two sources to push your POV and it blew up in your face. No source calls it a "Bulgarian state" only you. That's called WP:OR. Athenean (talk) 00:37, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

My last edit is not a removal but reconstruction. I don't have all night to lose with you. Tomorrow we continue with the discussion. --Gligan (talk) 00:33, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Your last edit was a partial rv, which counts as an rv. Don't do that again. Athenean (talk) 00:37, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

You removed my text

You removed my text where I maintained that on the pages of Misplaced Pages treating the Ancient History operates a gang of 3-5 persons (or a single one with couple accounts) who, by acting in concert on the related subjects, try to promote removal of the name of the Ancient Macedonia replacing it by Greece, Hellas or derivates of these names.

To remove my text was a good idea. Thanks very much indeed.Draganparis (talk) 22:03, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Cyprus

I do not appreciate how I am being personally victimised by you, and the way in which you have used my talk page to threaten me. Nor do I appreciate the racist undertone with which you conduct yourself with the comment regarding "Τούρκος".

I am not attempting to removing all Hellenism from Cyprus. However, you appear to be pushing Hellenism on everything related to the topic, presumably due to your own Greek heritage, causing your edits to be the subject of bias and POV. For instance, whilst describing the Ptolemies in the Cyprus introduction is acceptable, claiming them to be the "Greek" empire is an overstatement; whilst they were of Greek descent, they had little to do with mainland Greece, and no historians refer to them solely as the "Greek" empire. As for a lack of support, other users (including Seric2 and Chaosdruid) have also had to rv your edits to the Cyprus article. In regards to the debate on the Church of Cyprus and the country's ethnic groups, it would, perhaps, have been better had you discussed your edits first, rather than lunging in and changing everything so it has "Greek" (and not even "Greek Cypriot") in the name. I must remind you that, despite your own views on the definition of the word "Greek", most dictionaries (cf. The Concise Oxford English Dictionary) define the term as relating to people from or native to Greece. Cyprus is a separate country, and your POV edits to make it appear as an extension of Greece is not only demeaning towards Cypriots and their individual identity, but is also very un-encyclopaedic. You have also followed my contributions around Misplaced Pages and attempted to undo more of my work outside the Cyprus article. Stalking me and rv everything I do because you do not like it is a very serious breach of rules regarding vandalism and is unacceptable.

If you do not stop reverting my contributions to Misplaced Pages, simply because they do not appeal to your personal views, and if you continue to threaten me, I will have no choice but to report you. —Olympian (talk) 12:53, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

You make the distinction between ethnicity and nationality, but with the term “Greek”, do you have any evidence that this distinction is actual? According to all the dictionaries I have checked, including Oxford and Princeton Wordnet, a Greek is “a native or inhabitant of Greece”. So by that very definition, Greek-speaking people in Cyprus, whilst they may have links with Greece (enough to once want enosis, although only a minority still support the cause today) they are part of a different ethnic group. Why, by common sense, should the exact same ethnic group exist in Greece and its islands and then also exists thousands of miles away? And why should the Achaean Greeks who landed in Cyprus hundreds of years ago be the only source of Greek Cypriot heritage and genetics; what about the pre-existing aboriginals (the Eteocypriots, etc) and the assimilated subsequent settlers from the Near East, Anatolia and North Africa? Many geneticists who have studied Cypriot DNA have published material confirming that Cypriots are genetically not the same as Greeks and Turks. As for the cultural aspects of ethnicity, Cyprus has endured a completely separate history from that of Greece since ancient times. No ancient Greek poet or writer considered Cypriots to be Greeks, cf. Herodotus and Aeschylus, and it was never a Greek city-state. Since Classical times, Cypriot history has been distinct from Greek up until only very recently: in the Byzantine empire, Cyprus was a mere colony and was sub-ruled alongside the Levant, not alongside mainland Greece or its islands. In addition, there were centuries of non-contact between the two modern-day countries, which lead to separate evolutions of the Greek language, and separate customs being developed in Greece and Cyprus. Many sources list “Greek/Turkish Cypriot” as ethnic groups or communities, including Cyprus: A Country Study from the Library of Congress, as well as most censuses (such as this I found on Google from the British government which classifies Greeks, GC, Turks, TC and Kurds as distinct ethnic groups). Even in the Cypriot census leading up to the Cyprus Convention, and in subsequent censuses, Cypriot people were/are asked to identify themselves as Greek Cypriot, Armenian, Maronite, Latin, or Turkish Cypriot; not Greek or Turkish. Why should we automatically judge these sources as incorrect, especially when they are social studies and international censuses. Some sources go so far as to use the term “Greek-speaking Cypriots” instead. For instance, in the Yearbook of the United Nations (such as Volume 1967), in the Journal of Neurological Sciences, and in this TIME article. To quote the seminal post-colonial literary text on Cyprus, Bitter Lemons:

"There are two main ethnic groups living in Cyprus: The Christian Orthodox community of Greek-speaking Cypriots and the Muslim Sunni community of Turkish-speaking Cypriots….But the Greek and the Turkish Cypriots have similar customs, and are indistinguishable in looks (e.g. colour, complexion, height, and attire)."

And if we’re going on public opinion (your example of enosis), then what about this Facebook group entitled “Turkish, Greek, Armenian, Maronite and Latin Speaking Cypriots Can Be Friends” which has over one thousand Cypriot members. Do they consider themselves purely Greek or Turkish? Other Cypriot-run organisations also use the term “Greek/Turkish-speaking”, including unifiedcyprus.com and thelastdividedcapital.com, amongst others. As for the concept of “Cypriot ethnicity”, the following anthropological or ethnological studies (some by Cypriots themselves) reference or describe Greek or Turkish Cypriot ethnicity: and , as well as in the brilliant book Divided Cyprus, and in much of Floya Anthia’s well-known published material.

I have nothing against Hellenism. As you already know, I am Greek Cypriot, and very proud to be: I read classical Greek texts and am interested in Greek history and culture. However, I also appreciate the other aspects that build up my - and other Cypriot peoples' - identity. Whether that's the genetic and historic (such as Eteocypriot heritage), or aspects of Cypriot culture that is different from Greek, I realise that Greece and Cyprus, and Greeks and Cypriots, are not identical. They're similar and have mutual respect, but centuries and thousands of miles apart have made Greeks and Greek Cypriots members of distinct ethnic groups.

I hope you can respect this and, in an encyclopaedic manner, agree to using the term Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots, as per most censuses and many ethnological and genetic studies. —Olympian (talk) 21:25, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

A Facebook group? Are you serious? As far as I know, the only one who considers the Cypriots a separate ethnic group is yourself, and that is certainly not the consensus on wikipedia or anywhere else. In case you haven't noticed, Cypriots links to a disambiguation page, not an ethnic group article. That' is the consensus here and in the broader world: "Cypriot" is nothing more than a geographic designation, it is not an ethnicity. As far as genetics, please leave that out of it. I know a lot about genetics, and it never ceases to amaze me how people who know nothing about genetics always try to read into DNA studies what they want. Genetics has nothing to do with culture and ethnic identity. The reason Greek and Turkish Cypriots are so similar is because Turkish Cypriots are basically Greek Cypriots who converted to Islam during Ottoman rule, much like Muslim Cretans. By your logic, then, Cretans are also "not" Greeks. In fact, if we take your chain of reasoning (that seeks to magnify even the most trivial cultural differences) to its logical conclusion, there is no such thing as "Greeks". Local differences exist throughout the Greek world, but that doesn't mean everyone is a separate ethnic group. So Cypriot cuisine is a bit more Middle Eastern influence than that of mainland Greece? So what? That is an example of a trivial difference that you seek to magnify for effect. The differences between Greeks on Cyprus and those on the mainland are minor and can all be ascribed to geography. Regarding the Churches, you seem to have confused Greek Orthodox Church, with Church of Greece. There is a world of a difference there. The Church of Cyprus is part of the broader Greek Orthodox Church, together with the Church of Greece. But enough on this, there is clearly no point in trying to talk you out of your views, so we are going to have to agree to disagree. Now, I can probably live with "Greek Cypriot" and "Turkish Cypriot", but Cypriot-Americans as "Asian-Americans"? Give me a break! Also, I find it a bit extreme (and Chaosdruid has agreed with me) that Greeks aren't mentioned anywhere in the lead of Cyprus. That Cyprus was heavily settled by Greeks since Mycenean times and has been part of the Greek World since then (why did the Cypriots join the Ionian revolt?) has to be mentioned in the lead. I hope you can agree to that much at least. Athenean (talk) 22:45, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

1. http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/Cities/Chrysoupoli.html