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Revision as of 22:41, 9 January 2006

Regarding the most recent edits

• "Flirting with the idea of child pornography" is a very serious charge and debatable. It seems inescapably POV, and I don't believe restoring this text was appropriate.
• Many artists are routinely parodied on Saturday Night Live or MadTV, or by comedians. Unless any given parody is exceptionally noteworthy or famous in its own right it's superfluous; otherwise, we could add parody skit transcripts to articles about almost anyone (entertainers and politicians alike).
• In general, the article should be in an encyclopedic style, and not like a newspaper or magazine article, so there should be less of the extensive interview-like quotes (from Garofalo, Apple or Brion).

I made a few edits and hopefully it strikes the right balance between the last version and the next-to-last version. There was an edit war not so long ago, let's try to play nice everybody :-) -- Curps 01:07, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

New discussion

"It is rumored to have left Apple in tears. Though no source can be cited, Apple allegedly vowed to intentionally make herself less pretty to counteract the pressure on young women to be beautiful." Can a RELIABLE SOURCE be cited? If not, this is gossip and should not be spread around on an "encyclopedia."

"which intentionally simulated 1970's pornographic films" this is also a base-less claim. A shag carpet and a hottub do not make a porno.

"and flirted with the idea of child pornography" On what is this claim based???? -- 66.122.48.143 11:48, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Older discussions

Removed: "It was also words that are rarely used in English, confusing many listeners. "

The wording of that doesn't really make any sense. Altered phrasing to reflect what was actually meant; that intellectual wording made the lyrics of the album difficult for listeners to decipher. EB

Confused; someone said they were removing the "similar artist" because it was not useful, which seems sort of contradictory. Of course it's useful: if someone is not familar with the work of Fiona Apple, but is with the other artists listed, then they have a point of reference for something similar. That's the entire purpose of a similar artist section. But it doesnt seem to have been removed anyhow? -EB-

I removed it because that's just an unqualified opinion without something backing it up. Anything objective is better than a list, even "Fiona Apple has stylistic similarities to female singer-songwriters from the late 1980s and early 1990s, such as Tracy Chapman and Tori Amos" at least notes that they are temporally and sexually similar. A little more detail would be better still, even if it's just that their work is often piano-based (I don't know if any of that is true, as it's not really my scene, but it sounds right). Tuf-Kat

Well, I have to disagree in a huge way. It sees like you're just coming from a POV of someone who is unfamiliar with the common practice of listing similar musical artists for quick-glance clarification. It *IS* an objective list. Their music is similar; no, it doesn't specify a reason, but it's music. It's comparing apples to apples. It would be different if I was saying "Fiona Apple's music is similar to the architecture of X." I'm not. I'm comparing music to music, so the similarity should be obvious: it is MUSICALLY similar. But it's not that important I suppose. -EB-

You're right, it's not that important because people gloss over and mostly ignore lists of similar artists. The list can't be perceived as objective (and perception of veracity is much more important in a wiki than most other formats) because the list doesn't prove that there are any similarities -- how do I know, assuming I'd never heard of Apple or the others on the list, that you aren't some random whacko that also has a theory that Marilyn Manson and James Taylor are similar artists? If it can be proved, it can be proved more effectively and more informatively in a prose format with a simple statement of why. Tuf-Kat

Funny, you didn't seem to feel the need to remove "sounds-like" references on the Tori Amos page, though it's disguised as "see also". *wink*Pacian 03:48, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What kind of music does she do? She's fairly obscure in the UK and I haven't heard a single note of anything by her (I assume she's a bit like Tori Amos and so forth, I've only come here because FreeFiona.com was on your American internet news). Perhaps the article could say something along the lines of 'Apple's debut album combined (genre) with (genre), her most prominent (musical attribute) being (attribute)' and so forth. -Ashley Pomeroy 20:06, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ashley - it is safe to say that though Fiona Apple is often liked by fans of Tori Amos, the two are extremely dissimilar. Apple's success in the states was short lived but her first album was a huge smash and she became a household name here. She does folksy/instrumental pop and has a fondness for organs and percussion; however, her pianos are rarely forefronted in her music like Amos, who is a piano virtuoso. It's hard to say what kind of music she "does," as that could be dangerously POV, so it's best to call her a pop star. Her song "Criminal" was her biggest hit. Pacian 10:15, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ethnicity

Does anyone know about Fiona Apple's ethnicity? I came to this page hoping to put an end to my speculation on this topic, to no avail. Aesculapius75 11:01, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

An interesting question. She's certainly not out there telling everyone; it isn't anywhere in google, and I've looked. Here are a couple of family photos: In the first, she's next to her very white dad; standing behind her is her half-brother, and next to him is her full sister, who also has exotic looks. I can't find a photo of her mother anywhere online, though. When you put the cheekbones, the cornrows, and her hanging out with hip-hoppers The Roots, she's certainly pretty comfortable with all of that stuff for a white chick ... ;-)

Anyway, until we get an official statement, or a convincing photo of her mother, I'm not sure there's anything to put in the article. I can't even find an article wondering about it, that we could cite. --Dhartung | Talk 17:58, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

I found a short bio of her sister Maude Maggart, who is a cabaret singer (her mentors are Andrea Marcovicci and Michael Feinstein). Fiona's always been described as "growing up on the Upper West Side"; Maude's bio, trying to buttress some jazz cred, says "near 125th Street"! Friends, that's Harlem. From Maude's bio and interviews we get the story of their grandmother, who "ran away from home" to join George White's Scandals, and then sang for a jazz band and married the saxophonist. Hmmm. (those are some surprising red links, actually) --Dhartung | Talk 05:26, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Gollee, I found a photo of grandma, the flapper era dancer. She's clearly white. This doesn't mean that mom Diane McAfee was completely white, though. What we have is one parent completely white, and one grandparent completely white.

And that led me to grandpa "Johnny McAfee", who was with the "Johnny Hamp and his Orchestra" ... an earlier group by Hamp, the Kentucky Serenaders, was a bunch of white southerners crooning in suits ... --Dhartung | Talk 08:06, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

I was at high school (Southside, Rockville Centre, 1955-58) with Diane, Fiona's mom, who was the star of every show. No touch of the tarbrush there.

?uestlove

I'm hesitant to include the following text, although I believe it to be essentially correct:

Apple has been reported to have cemented a friendship with Philadelphia-based hip hop artist ?uestlove of The Roots, after years of mutual admiration, and to be seeking collaboration opportunities. Unconfirmed reports from the okayplayer.com forums had Apple stating that the album is "not cancelled" and may be released as a "dual disc", one of which would be Brion's and the other produced by Mike Elizondo, with ?uestlove drumming on the latter. Kehew's work, according to this chat, would be for an album of yet newer material. No formal announcement confirming these claims has been released.

I think it's interesting enough, and has enough disclaiming, but it's a touchy rumor-filled space and I don't want to muddy things. The main problem is that the okayplayer.com thread was expired and unavailable, although outside references to it exist. If there are no objections, though, I'll go ahead and add it. --Dhartung | Talk 06:00, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

The above is mostly obsolete now, except for the bit about ?uestlove. It seems like there was some accuracy regarding the Elizondo production, but we still have that unconfirmed hint that Kehew is helping her with a fourth album. And there's no confirmation of ?uestlove working on the official EM as yet. Incidentally, I'm putting more detail over in the Extraordinary Machine article, rather than here. I trust other editors will follow my lead. --Dhartung | Talk 05:51, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Anorexic?

I see Apple is listed under Anorexia_nervosa#Notable_anorectics. If this is known to be true, is it worth mentioning here? pfctdayelise 15:06, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I think she may have been at one time in her life (probably before she started recording) and admitted it in an interview, but I'd need to look it up.--Fallout boy 12:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

She has been quoted as saying "I definitely had an eating disorder. What was really frustrating for me was that everyone thought I was anorexic, and I wasn't. I was really depressed and self-loathing. For me, it wasn't about being thin, it was about getting rid of the bait attached to my body. A lot of it came from the self-loathing that came from being raped at the point of developing my voluptuousness. I just thought that if you had a body and if you had anything on you that would be grabbed, it would be grabbed. So I did purposely get rid of it."