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Comment by Palmiro

Aflaq combined palingenetic socialism and Italian fascism with elements of 19th-century European anti-Semitism and xenophobic hatreds of other non-Arab nationalities, in particular Persians.

This is a rather unusual interpretation of Aflaq's politics. I've commented it out for the moment, unless someone wants to source it to a historian (or political opponent, or whatever) of some description I'll delete it. Palmiro | Talk 20:01, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

More info needed on some points

It is closely connected to Arab nationalism. Pan-Arabism has tended to be secular and often socialist, and has strongly opposed Western political involvement in the Arab world. Pan-Arabism is a form of ethnic nationalism.

Pan-arabism is connected to arab nationalism? Isn't it the same thing? What's the difference between them?

More importantly however, pan-Arabism, in the name of unity, has helped inspire pogroms against Non-Arab/Non-Muslim Minorities such as the persecution of Assyrian Christians in Iraq, and later of the Kurds.

Except that we should add berber to the list, why was this sentence removed? Is it wrong? Didn't the regime who claimed they were panarabic harmed these minorities?

For Aflaq, you might use this quote: "In this struggle we retain our love for all. When we are cruel to others, we know that our cruelty is in order to bring them back to their true selves, of which they are ignorant. Their potential will, which has not been clarified yet, is with us, even when their swords are drawn against us."

"is forced to return to himself, to sink into his depths, to discover himself anew after experience and pain. At that point the true unity will be realized, and this is a new kind of unity different from political unity; it creates the unity of spirit among the individuals of the nation." Michel Aflaq source

--equitor 17:01, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

Somalia?

Arab? In what way? They are Muslim yes, and use Arabic script, but Somalis are neither ethnically nor linguistically Arab. Cripipper 16:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

As for Ethnicity you have no knowledge unless u possess an advanced degree in anthropology or biochemistry as linguistically ever heard of the "Afro-Asiatic" language group fool, get your facts right man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.151.213.18 (talk) 16:29, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Somalis themselves see themselves as being of Arab descent and as clearly distinct from Black Africans.

As for linguistics, Somali is an Cushitic language, while Arabic is a Semitic language, both belonging to the larger Afro-Asiatic languages group. Most linguists believe that this language family as a whole originated somewhere in Northeastern Africa, with the Semitic subgroup spilling over to Arabia and other parts of the Middle East (see Afro-Asiatic languages#Original homeland (Urheimat) and date). Genetic evidence suggests that Somalis, along with linguistically related groups such as the Oromo, form an own group distinct from other inhabitants of Sub-Saharan Africa and are genetically closer to Eurasians/Caucasoids/Arabs than other sub-Saharan Africans are. Béka (talk) 12:46, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Merging of Arab unification and Pan-Arabism??

Although there are understandable links between the two topics it has been noted that pan-arabism can incorporate arab peoples across the globe attempting not only to unify as a nation state but as an entity with which all can identify. Arab nationalism is generally confined to the Middle East and North Africa with the aim being an arab state incorporating much of the Middle East and North Africa into a cohesive and united nation. A popular theory for many years, there is unlikely to be a resolution and creation of such a state in the near future because of the difficulties in deciding who rules such a state. In the past Egypt, Syria and Saudi Arabia have all attempted to put themselves at the forefront of the arab nationalism movement by creating groups such as the Islamic Conference Organisation, yet all to little avail. (Hinnebusch, R. "The International Politics of the Middle East" Manchester University Press, 2003)

Therefore the two articles should be kept separate, witht he repeated information perhaps removed to make reading and use of the site quicker and easier. Bencgibbins 11:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I say merge Aaliyah Stevens 18:00, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Bencgibbins: First off, we're not talking about Arab nationalism, we're talking about "Arab Unification" -- which I fail to see how it is different from pan-Arabism. Can you please cite the exact quote from Hinnebusch? Unless someone can provide reliable sources showing that they are different things, they should be merged. Khoikhoi 04:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

YouTube

The current Pan-Arabist#External_links contains an excessive amount of YouTube links. Some (if not most) should be removed.Bless sins (talk) 01:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Suggest reformat

I suggest moving and editing opposition to Pan-Arabism into a 'criticism' section. it's only natural for a political ideology to be compared to rivaling and opposed ones. This section should include non-arab minorities criticism (e.g. kurds, berbers), islamist opposition (Brotherhood, Qutb) and nationalist alternatives (Pan-Syrianism). MiS-Saath (talk) 16:43, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

merge

it's not good to merge Arab Unification with Pan-Arabism, because the different between both pages is very obvious, One is talking about an idea that some leaders was thinking to do, but the Pan-Arabism are a peole with in the arab people who is trying to force their covernments to accept this agenda!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdullah Alkendy (talk • contribs) 07:30, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Sources, please. Because the current definitions on these two pages are nearly identical. Khoikhoi 04:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I guess I'm going to be bold and merge the pages. If anyone has any objections, please cite your sources showing me that the two subjects are different. Khoikhoi 20:23, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I understand that you were being bold, but maybe there should be some sort of consensus on whether the two articles should be merged or not. There seems to be some good reasoning to keep them separate in the "Merging of Arab unification and Pan-Arabism??" section above. User:Timstre —Preceding undated comment was added at 22:24, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I've already responded to the "reasoning". The bottom line is that no one has provided any references proving that pan-Arabism and Arab Unification are two different things. See WP:BURDEN. Khoikhoi 22:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey, it's fine with me if they're merged. Just making a suggestion. Anyway, I've added some info from the old Arab Unification article to Pan-Arabism. Tried to make sure nothing was repeated. User:Timstre —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Looks good, thanks. Khoikhoi 22:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Racism section?

It looks to me that the whole "Racism" section of the article is very nonobjective. It's also just a bunch of links to articles on other sites. I'm going to erase all of it; if someone thinks there should be a section on the possibility of pan-arabism being racist, it should be written in an objective fashion, and not just links. Timstre (talk) 02:12, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I've deleted the "Anti-Jewish" section. Several parts of it in particular only discussed antisemitism in general as opposed to pan-Arabism, which is what this article is about. Khoikhoi 02:49, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

What seems to be the problem why is there an attempt here by someone to make it appear as if the facts aren't neutra? is anyone disputing the facts that all thosoe cases occured/occur? or if it stems from militant Arabism?

Fatim1 (talk) 17:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

On the anti-jewish section before edited by Contrieng (talk) 14:54, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, as promised, here comes my 2¢. Having read the section in question, it does seem totally dubious, badly written and a definite POV-push. I'm afraid I don't have enough knowledge on the subject matter to make any arguments for whether the section is valid or not, but it certainly should not remain in its current state – rewrite if there are valid arguments, remove if not. haz (talk) 16:37, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Anti-jewish And general style of the article

It is more than obvious that the anti-jewish section is unencyclopedic. Here are some of the reasons:

1. The style is more of a news-flash.
2. It contains information poorly cited.
3. It is a strong point of view pushover.
4. There are some grammar mistakes and mistakes in punctuation. ( forgive me for mistakes in my own writing here)
5. It seems like this section is not about anti-jewish racism but instead an attack on arabs.
6. It contains dubious information that is apparently intended to misguide the reader.
7. IT DOES NOT BELONG IN PAN-ARABISM

Contrieng (talk) 14:54, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

It's not more than anews flash than any other data on wiki.

Poorly cited? What does that mean? have you checked the links? I just did check most of them! IT DOES BELONG IN ARABISM or PAN-ARABISM! One should not cover for ANY racism, there is no excuse, which is why I haven't edited claims by Israeli Arabs of racism on other pages on wiki.

One should not be biased against Jews and apologize for anti Jewish racism by Arabism just because it doesn't sound nice, true info should be noticed & known.

If you check my contributions you will find that I post against Arabs being attacked in Europe. Fatim1 (talk) 18:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

OK Fatim1 here is where I disagree with you and my opinion in general:

First of all, it IS more of a news flash than all Misplaced Pages articles (at least all the ones I'm interested in or have seen). I don't know what Misplaced Pages articles you are talking about but even if other articles are also news-like, this does not make it OK. I cannot fix all the articles but I am trying to fix this one.

Second, I HAVE checked ALL the links in that section and what I meant by poorly cited is that most come from Israeli websites or websites by Jews. So what? Right? It's racism against THEM! Well, can't I claim that any person is racist against me and tell people stories about it? I surely can, but it would be wrong to believe me unless I have seen the racism first hand, or if it has been documented by NEUTRAL side. Where would that leave the people who I have accused? Can't they defend themselves from the accusations of being racist? Can't they explain that what is being conceived as racism is a REACTION to being victimized? I think they must be allowed to do that and THEN people can make educated judgements. Furthermore, I may be someone who claims people are against me and then I make websites about it and then I cite my own websites in Misplaced Pages, which makes the article a mere propaganda instrument.

Thirdly, it does NOT belong in pan-Arabism because all of the Arab League meetings in the past and also all pan-Arabism attempts have not had racist causes behind them (especially not against Jews) The first thoughts of pan-Arabism were inside the Ottoman Empire and they came to surface after Ottoman bad treatement of Arabs (Note that Ottomans and Arabs are Muslims). pan-Arabism was sought by Al-Sharif Hussein bin Ali and other Arab leaders during the Arab revolt in 1916 long before Israel existed. At that time, Arabs made alliances with the west against the Ottomans on order to unite Arabs. There were no bad feelings towards Jews and Muslim, Christian and Jew arabs all lived together and sought unity.

I am NOT trying to cover for any kind of racism as I am totally and sincerely against it. It is WRONG if any Muslim or any Arab or any person has any kind of prejudice against Jews or other people. The sole purpose of my edits was an attempt to present a more NEUTRAL perspective of the issue. I am not biased against Jews. I personally believe that all people must live together peacfully. Unfortunately, I have no proof for this as you don't know me and you may not believe all of what I am saying. Racism, of course, is not nice but I am not COVERING it and biased. I have beliefs, nut I am not biased.

Finally, I completely agree that true information must be known, and that is why my edits (at first) were only addition of information and I did not attempt any change in other claims. But then, people who oppose my views started deleting my additions for no apparent reasons and adding more biased points. I do acknowledge that some Arabs are racist just as some Jews are racist. Racism has no race.. if I may..

Thanks a lot..
Contrieng (talk) 21:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The complaints listed here are absurd, first automatically disquilifying a source because its Jewish is in and of itself racist. If you could find Jewish sources claiming Jews were treated as equals in Arab countries, or even Arab sources they could be added as a counter-weight to the accounts of Arab racism.

Second of all, Jews were always second class citizens in Arab countries under the best of circumstances. See the innumerable anti-Jewish laws in Arab countries, such as the law forbidding Jews from wearing shoes in Morocco, Or Jewish orphans being forcibly converted to Islam in Yemen, or the Hebron massacre of 1929, or the Farhud. All these existed before there was an Israel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Little penguin 613 (talk • contribs) 21:08, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I can find sources about that, but it still does not belong here. See for example: ] This is just an example, there are more. This also proves that jews were not second-class citizens under good circumstances. Dictatorships that kill their own people should not be examples about racism. They have no mercy to all humanity not just one race.Contrieng (talk) 22:37, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Alright, the problem is this is a discussion of Pan-Arab racism, a specific ideology which began in the 1800's well after Muslim Spain had ceased. The Golden age of Spain took place under a Islamic regime. While Pan-Arabism was and is heavily influenced by Islam they are not one and the same.

Secondly, even during the Golden Age of Spain, Jews were not equals. Jews were required to pay the Jizya, and the other Dhimmi laws in regards to what animals could be rode, what jobs Jews could pursue. As well as having inherently less value in judicial proceedings. Furthermore, if you look at the Jewish sources that lived during the era, they didnt view it as such a golden age. See the Rambam's Iggeret Taiman, or Rav Saadia Gaon.

Thirdly, this is one example, there have been many Arab and Arab-Islamic countries pointing to one; Spain, which the Jews view as being a time of suffering if lessened suffering, and which was not even a Pan-Arab state, is not a effective proof that Pan-Arab racism doesnt exist.

Fourth, if a dictatorship kills its own people because they are a specific "race" or ethnicity, that is racism, and the Hebron massacre took place under the British, and the Farhud was a Pogrom by the citizens of Iraq, not the government, but in both cases these massacres took place by Arabs motivated by Pan-Arabism.

Fifth, it is still racism to dismiss material simply because it is Jewish or Israeli.

Sixth, the documentary film the Silent Exodus by Pierre Rechov about the expulsions of Jews that took place in the Arab world following the establishment of the state of Israel is filled with original interviews from Jewish expellees, who often describe their treatement before there was a Israel as being very poor and motivated by racism. http://www.pierrerehov.com/exodus.htm. Now most of those interviewed are Jewish, but they were the victims of this persecution. My point being this is a objective documentary by a french filmmaker showing extensive evidence of Pan-Arab racism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Little penguin 613 (talk • contribs) 06:55, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I did not dismiss the material "simply because it is jewish". If you look at the references of the "golden age artice" they are jewish. I checked the websites and I found them quite unreliable sources with strongly biased views. Anyway, despite the fact that I did not accept the reliability of the references, I made no effort to remove the claims. My edits were only an attempt to present a more neutral perspective and to formulate sentences in less offensive terms. Then due to attempts of vandalism AND other user's suggestions I came to believe that the section is OK by itself (with need for re-writing) but does not belong here.

I do recognize that pan-arabism is completely different (though closely related) from Islam. Yet, the golden age is still a proof that arabs in Spain (they were muslims AND Arabs) treated jews like equals (these are the true teachings of islam followed by arabs in spain)

I deny the fact that Arab-racism is a concept that started from the 1800s. This is just wrong! Arabs at that time were under othoman rule and themselves were struggling with othoman racism against them. they suffered from ignorance and discrimination and attempts to convert them to turks. They were in no position to be racist against jews. However, as soon as zionism came to surface claiming that an arab land is theirs, I can understand appropriate feelings towards zionists and not jews in general.

Jews were required to pay jizya as muslims were required to pay "Zakat". Another proof of equality. Also, this Jizya was much less than any other taxes they had to pay before. It is NOT right that they had less judicial rights because that is opposed to islamic teachings, though is stuff like marriage, dhimmi's go to their own churches or laws and do not follow Islamic law. The sources for the article I cited are jewish! "the jewish encyclopedia". Also, there are european (neutral) sources that claim the same things.

There seems to be a misunderstanding. So for the record I say: I do not claim at all that Arab-racism against jews does not exist. please read the last two paragraphs of my last argument (the long one).

As for the time of the british mandate. Massacares happened by jews and by arabs. It was kind of a civil war, two groups fighting against each other, not one group a racist and the other a victim. Also, the jews had no right in being there in the first place. The british according to balfour's promise decided to make a land for the jews in palestine. therefore arabs viewed those immigrants as invadors.

Dictators that kill their own people of the same religion and same race are not examples of racism. That is dictatorship not racism.

Jews were NOT expelled from Arab-lands, rather they were encouraged by othe Jews and Israeli's to immigrate to Israel just as Jews in europe, russia and america were. On the other hand there are many documentaries about the arab exodus by the Israeli's from their lands after the creation of israel on arab lands and after further occupation.Contrieng (talk) 11:15, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I am Christian and I can tell you it's not just jews this is the most racist ideology ever known to man. LOL talk about denial jews were expelled from the Arab world from Iraq to Syria and my grandmother who is Egyptian told me how that racist scumbag Gamal Abdel Nasser expelled all the Egyptian Jews in the 1950s. Pan-ARabism is RACISM.♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 21:19, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Contradiction?

The following:

There have been several attempts to bring about a Pan-Arab state by many well known Arab leaders that ultimately resulted in failure.

The first was the Arab Federation of Iraq and Jordan in 1958. It was a confederation between cousins King Faisal II of Iraq and King Hussein of Jordan. This federation fell apart after the Iraqi Army's coup d'etat.

The United Arab Republic in 1958 was the second attempt. Formed under Nasser, it was a union between Egypt and Syria. It lasted only until 1961 when an anti-Nasserist coup in Syria led to Syria's withdrawal from the union.

Seems to be in contradiction to the following:

During his early years, Faisal was tutored at the royal palace with several other Iraqi boys. As a teenager, Faisal attended Harrow School in the United Kingdom with his cousin, King Hussein of Jordan. The two boys were close friends, and reportedly planned early-on to merge their two realms, to counter what they considered to be the threat of militant pan-Arab nationalism. Their ultimate efforts in this direction would ironically lead to Faisal's downfall. and On February 1, 1958, neighbouring Syria joined with Nasser's Egypt to form the United Arab Republic. This prompted the Hashemite kingdoms of Iraq and Jordan to strengthen their ties by establishing a similar alliance. Two weeks later, on February 14, this league formally became the Arab Federation of Iraq and Jordan. Faisal, as the senior member of the Hashemite family, became its head of state. However, Faisal's reign, together with his new nation, would come to an abrupt end a mere five months later. (http://en.wikipedia.org/Faisal_II)

It appears that the United Arab Republic was an attempt at a Pan-Arabic State and the Arab Federation of Iraq and Jordan came later not so much as a Pan-Arabic State, but in response to one.

Uterm (talk) 14:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion (Please express your opinions)

I strongly suggest that the part about racism is moved to a new article with a proper title. This article is about pan-Arabism and the majority of it is not about pan-Arabism. What do you think? Contrieng (talk) 22:07, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I have explained repeatedly that the "anti-Jewish" section in particular violates WP:SYNTH, a sub-policy of WP:NOR. Most of that stuff is already covered in the Antisemitism in the Arab world and Racial antisemitism articles anyways. Khoikhoi 22:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism?

I suspect that the user talk is vandalizing the article. He insists on making edits that contradict the general consensus of the article. For example, he made edits in a childish manner by adding "not" to some sentences to completely change the context.
Editors such as Khoi and myself suggest that the racism section be moved to a new article. Also, I have said over and over that the style of the "anti-Jewish" section (before I edited it) is not ethical. The user Khoi has decided to delete it and I agree with his action.
talk on the other hand is making changes without any discussion and you can see the way he addressed me on my talk page (I hope he doesn't delete it so you can't see it)
Please express what you think.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Contrieng (talk • contribs) 10:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

forking afd

see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Anti Jewish Arabism. --Soman (talk) 17:04, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

There appears to be another one, Racism within Arabism, created at 04:44, 3 October 2008. T L Miles (talk) 01:34, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• New for 2009, another fork (he's running out of names): Panarabism and bigotry connection. T L Miles (talk) 03:01, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

al-watan al-arabi

It is quite strange that the concept of the arab nation (al-watan al-arabi) isn't explicitly mentioned in the article (with map). In not sure whether there should be a separate article on it or whether it should be fully covered in this one, though. --Soman (talk) 14:32, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject ratings

I think this article should be low in importance on the Iraq, Lebanon, Syria and Palestine WikiProjects. This is because the ideology is contentious to many people in these countries and hasn't served the people of Iraq, Palestine or Lebanon particularly well in the past. Greater Syria (talk) 17:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it certainly hasn't although I don't really blame the idea itself, just the leaders, the governments, foreign interference and many other issues - internal and external. Either way, pan-Arabism has certainly affected these countries greatly over the course of the 20th century and to an extent the 19th and 21st centuries. High-importance might be pushing it, but it's certainly not of low-importance. I'll settle for mid-importance, but you still should bring this up on the talk pages of the concerned wikiprojects because editors there might hold different opinions. --Al Ameer son (talk) 02:43, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd agree with that analysis Al-Ameer, a quick concensus we have formed. I'll set the ratings and leave notes on the WikiProject talk pages. Izzedine (talk) 03:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the mid-importance thingie, but seriously, the idea that because something was not exactly good or serve the people well it should receive low-imp is fairly ridiculous.

Cheers!

Λuα 10:11, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

FASCIST RACISM

There should be a whole article dedicated alone to the racism and damage this fascist racist ideology has conflicted on others and how it wants to dominate other cultures and commit cultural genocide by replacing everything with the Arab label. Starting with the biggest racist Arabist-Nazi fasicst of them all Gamal Abdul Nasser who had a loathing for anything non arab and stole egypt's true identity and because of him Egypt is the way it the it is now as the book the yacoubian building excellent denoted. Arabism has eclipsed into it's final phase Islamism and extremism is on the rise and thanks to him Egypt became a police state and all the country's wealth spent on wars for the deluded Arab dream (all of which have been lost) many people especially Egyptians of European descent fled and Jews were expelled. Copts have also been victimize from racist Arabism along with black egyptians. ♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 21:26, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

"racism"

The sources used to support this are, to put it mildly, crap. Frontpagemag is not a reliable source, CampusWatch is not a reliable source, some random website is not a reliable source. And none of this crap belonged in the lead of the article. I realize that some of you have a deep hatred for all things Arab, but attempting to use crap sources to make this article your personal vehicle to promote that hatred is unacceptable. nableezy - 21:47, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

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