Misplaced Pages

• Support -- F. Cosoleto 12:58, 6 November 2005 (UTC) --F. Cosoleto 16:33, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose The Italian provinces and regions are all named in English, see Tuscany, Sicily, and so forth. After all this is an english-language Misplaced Pages, not Italian. Gryffindor 16:15, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Please, you consider Encyclopedia Britannica adopted names: Trentino, Veneto, Lazio, Latium, Sicily. --F. Cosoleto 17:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC).

• Support ok, this is an english-language Misplaced Pages, but Trentino-South Tyrol is'nt English, it's esperanto! --Nick1915 17:14, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica says North Tirol and East Tirol. This is a mixture as well. --Roland2 02:18, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

...but not South Tirol. --147.162.44.28 12:02, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• Support - Hellisp 18:09, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose as WP article titles for the Regions of Italy are translated into English when translations are possible. Olessi 01:07, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose: When you can choose between the Italian, German or English name, I would prefer the English one. Otherwise you'd have to rename Tyrol to "Tirol" and East Tyrol to "Osttirol" and maybe find out how to pronounce it ;-) --Roland2 02:03, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Why don't we start translating Aosta Valley into Vallée d'Aoste/Valle d'Aosta and Rhineland-Palatinate as Rheinland-Pfalz and Carinthia into Kärnten while we're at it?-) Gryffindor

• Support Gac 06:01, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. Martg76 08:37, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• I propose High Adige. Is it a good agreement? --147.162.44.28 12:02, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry not really. The region is called South Tyrol in English. The Adige/Etsch is a river. Gryffindor

• Oppose. the english wikipedia usually uses english terms for article names. like Austria is listed as Austria and not Österreich which is the native name. translating alto adige into english doesn't make much sense (would be something like high mountain range). the commonly used english term for alto adige hasn't been anything else than south tyrol. region names do not need to have the same meaning in every language. --Pythagoras1 12:21, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. The English language pages of the offical Bolzano province site refer to the area as South Tyrol; Alto Adige is an Italian expression - the translation into English 'High Mountain Range' is not used. Google counting is not a reliable indicator of usage. Valiantis 14:16, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• oppose. The official name is South Tyrol. --Highdelbeere 15:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• oppose The official name is South Tyrol. --Hubi (Talk) 16:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Sorry, but the the official name is Trentino-Alto Adige and Trentino-Südtirol. You can use the English as you like, but not saying that South Tyrol is the official name please ! You say, I suppose, Florence and it's good, but the official name still is Firenze. Gac 17:08, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

    Gac, you are contradicting yourself. You support to name it to "Alto Adige" and at the same time you say and, both names are official? How can you say both things at the same time...?? Fantasy 容 19:02, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• oppose ak Hubi--MartinS 16:37, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. I wouldn't use Upper Adige or High Adige either, because noone uses that. Markussep 17:01, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose Sud Tirolo in Italian is as wrong as Etschland in German. But, this is en.wiki, and if you guys have never heard of Upper Adige but only of South Tyrol than stick to that. In the end Italians call the Flemish-Belgian city of Ghent Gand, like the French do, and it.wikipedia sticks to that. --Cruccone 17:35, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose South-Tyrol is the english name of the country - "Alto Adige" is a fascism inventation. --DieterFink 19:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

the Prontuario was written in 1916, fascism started in 1922. If it really was a fascist invention, we would have changed the name after WWII. The town of Littoria was renamed Latina. It is a common feature of history that you annex some territory and change place names to your language. New York was called New Amsterdam before the English conquered it, but no one would say they were fascists. And Italy now recognises both the Italian and the German name. --Cruccone 21:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose If "South Tyrol" is changed to "Alto Adige", we have to change also "Florence" to "Firenze", Rome to Roma, .... Ok, the italians would probably support that, but I think the english Wikipedians will not be happy with it. Jimbo was visitin South Tyrol not Alto Adige, I am quite sure of that... Fantasy 容 18:53, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• Support: This is a tough one and there won't be a solution that appeals to everyone. I prefer "Trentino-Alto Adige", though, for the following reasons:
  1. The region is an administrative part of Italy, and the lingua franca of Italy is Italian; all official texts in Italy will call the region "Trentino-Alto Adige"
  2. Italian is also the mother tongue of 66% of the region's population
  3. As a German native speaker, anglicized German place names sound awful to me

  On a side-note, keep the name South Tyrol for the article about autonomous region of Bozen, because there, the majority is German speaking.

  Second sidenote: Does the regional government give an official English translation of the name? - Mkill 19:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

  • You got it! That was exactly the point, why Italy agreed to give Trentino AND South Tyrol autonomy, because they knew, that The Germans will be in a minority (66% italians, as you say). The Italians just tricked the Austrian negotiator. So, you say, because the italians tricked the Austrians, they should now have the victory...? Fantasy 容 19:26, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose I don't like to see english Misplaced Pages used for the nationalistic instances of italian- or german-speaking people. If there's an english name that's fine, if not an "italian name-german name" with redirects from "italian name" and "german name" is fine too. In the end use names that english-speaking people would search for, not names that italians or germans want to impose. --Snowdog 00:25, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
  • As an Italo-Australian whose primary language is English, I have to agree with Snowdog's logic. I reckon most anglophiles would say Alto what? But they would have a pretty good idea of what is meant by South Tyrol, what part of Italy it is referring to, its history, linguistic quirks, etc. I support neither proposition strongly, but I am saying that there is a snowball's chance in hell that the name Trentino-Alto Adige would ever pop into the head of an anglophile - they have enough trouble spelling my surname! Salutamu. --pippudoz - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 12:33, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Ok to all opposed, we don't need to translate all geographic names in the original language but to consider this important support Britannica (but also Encarta etc. etc.). Why Britannica don't translate even if Britannica is an english encyclopedia? It could be because the editors aren't experienced in translation? We can see that there is a complex reason between "altoatesini" and "südtirolern". The translation could be a choice for "only one" point of view. I suggest you to take the choice of Britannica that don't translate and leave this problem intact and use the "italian administrative name". The name could be taken during the Fascism, but at the moment in Italy the Fascism is dead. And Jimbo was visiting the South Tyrol in the administrative italian region "Trentino-Alto Adige". --Ilario 21:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Britannica is not Misplaced Pages and presumably has its own conventions for naming places. Their usage should not determine Misplaced Pages usage. I note that Britannica gives Tirol as the primary spelling of what we call Tyrol. This demonstrates that Britannica's usage cannot be treated as a method of deciding on disputed issues. Valiantis 13:47, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Ilario, Trentino-Südtirol is also an official name. It cannot be denied. --Cruccone 21:44, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. Policy is to use english names, Trentino is English for Trentino, South Tyrol is English for Alto Adige/Südtirol. This discussion shouldn't even be taking place. File:Austria flag large.png ナイトスタリオン ✉ 08:33, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

• Support --151.37.23.5 17:43, 8 November 2005 (UTC) better logged in --ΗΣLΙΦS89 17:51, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

  Please, the discussion is becoming more and more complex. That are also flags, nationalisms etc. See the test below and see the right point of view for this poll!!! The problem is the name of "ADMINISTRATIVE REGION" and not the name of "REGION". --Ilario 15:32, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose I'm italian and I would strongly oppose to change it:Londra to London although I know that the latter is the correct name. For the very same reason I trust native english speakers on what is the name of Trentino-Alto Adige in their language. --it:Utente:Berto

• Oppose. Even in French the name is Région Trentin - Tyrol du Sud. Geof 23:10, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose - as you can see on the official site of the region , the region refers to itself as "South Tyrol" in the english imprint (bottom of the page) and folders. --stefan (?!) 18:42, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose - The English version Autonomous Region Trentino - South Tyrol of the official site seems fine to me. -- User:Docu

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. -- Stefán Ingi 00:15, 18 November 2005 (UTC)_"Trentino-Alto_Adige")"> _"Trentino-Alto_Adige")">

Discussion about South Tyrol

Misplaced Pages uses the english name for naming italian provinces and not the italian ones, such as Tuscany, Sicily, Lombardy, etc... otherwise you would have to rename those into Toscana, Sicilia, etc.. I have checked the website of the Government of South Tyrol, they use the name "Trentino-South Tyrol". , . And if you are going to go with "official" name, Art. 116 of the Constitution of the Republic of Italy states that the official name of the province is "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol" You can check the website of the Constitutional Court of Italy/La Corte costituzionale della Republica Italiana link in English and for Italian-speaking users Costituzione della Repubblica Art. 116.

In order to avoid a muddle up of German and Italian, best to keep it in English. cheers... Gryffindor 19:25, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok, there is the article Trentino-Upper_Adige with correct denomination translated in English, but this is a redirect. The name Südtirol is the name of province. The region (composed by the province of Trento + the province of Bozen/Bolzano) has the name "Trentino-Alto Adige" (or Trentino Upper-Adige). --Ilario 19:45, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you: "best to keep it in English", not German: see also

Columbia Encyclopedia

Encarta

...

Pietro 21:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Well I have provided the proof. The official name in English is "Trentino-South Tyrol". The word "Upper Adige" is a geographic name for the upper region of the Adige river, similar to "Upper Volta". The province of Alto-Adige/Südtirol is however South Tyrol in English. The Italian Constitution is fair enough even to name both German and Italian names "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol". The name Trentino-Alto Adige is the Italian name, however this is the English-language Misplaced Pages. It explains even in the article itself. You can also look up the entry South Tyrol. Gryffindor 23:16, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I've been asked to share some input...so here it is: see here (I admit there are no clear guidelines for geographic terms, but South Tyrol is in use in the English-speaking world). Trentino Alto Adige is the Italian name for it, but I see don't much use in moving it to that name; a redirect from would probably do it. Lectonar 09:35, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, well then this should be pretty clear. Also these Italian Tourist websites use the word South Tyrol in English. Gryffindor

I would say, that South Tyrol should be used because it's the traditional name of this Region. In southern Tyrol the people are speaking up to 70 % German und South Tyrol is thet Region where Tyrol has been foundet in the village of Tyrol in the near of Meran and Meran is in South Tirol. I would say the Artikle should have the name Trentino-South Tyrol because it's the historical name. South Tyrol has been translatet from the italian goverment (Mursolini) in the years after the first worldwar to Alto-Adige, because they didn't had no italian name. They made them with the most names of villages and towns in southern Tyrol because in the italian languige had existed only 25 of the aprox 8.000 names oft villages, towns, rivers and mountains in South Tyrol. I would say, that we have to take cara to the german and rheto-romanic people in this part of Italy. --Highdelbeere 15:36, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I would say that care is being shown to the multi-ethnic inhabitants of this region through our use of double-naming for towns- Bozen-Bolzano, Meran-Merano etc. South Tyrol should not be used because it is the historic name, but because it is the name used in English. Olessi 17:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

The title of an article in the English version of Misplaced Pages should be the name used in the English world: do you think that the Britannica could be used as a reference? Pietro 19:21, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I am starting to become very irritated with these "Support" votes, is anyone reading any of the external websites that say that Alto-Adige/Südtirol is in english "South Tyrol"? Pushing this issue to me is not objective and a POV and borders on nationalistic chauvinism. There seems to be a run to rename everything about Südtirol into Italian now, see Talk:Eisack-Isarco. I would like to know why no one is running to rename Tuscany or Aosta Valley? Misplaced Pages has to remain neutral. Both German and Italian are official languages. This is not the place for political bickering, let's keep this as neutral as possible. in English. Gryffindor 23:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

It should be stated as Trentino-Alto Adige. South Tyrol is simply the English translation of the German pespective. It was someone who changed everything to South Tyrol originally with no consensus. Who was this??

TEST

Ok. I see that there are a lot of misunderstanding. This test, that anyone can be made, can clarify the problem and forget (please) all nationalisms and bring back the discussion in a right point of view. I see that there is a mistakes about the differences between "administrative name" and "historical" or "usual name".

• Do you think that Baden-Württemberg must have like main name: Swabia because Baden-Württemberg is german name but Swabia is an english name? YES NOT
• Do you think that Burkina Faso must have like main name: Upper Volta because this last name has a translation in english? YES NOT
• Do you think that "administrative italian region" Molise must have like main name: Samnium because Molise is italian name but Samnium is english name and the inhabitants of Molise call themselves "Sanniti" and speaks Neapolitan language? YES NOT
• Do you think that "administrative italian region" Basilicata must have like main name: Lucania because all italians call its inhabitants "Lucani"? YES NOT
• Do you think that "administrative name" that is present in italian Constitution (1947 after the Fascismus) could not be different from "historical" or "usual" name? YES NOT
• Do you think that this is not an english encyclopedia: ? YES NOT
• Do you think that this is not an english encyclopedia: (note that here on can read "administrative region")? YES NOT
• Do you think that this redirect is incorrect http://uk.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761576101/South%20Tyrol.html? YES NOT
• Do you think that this is not an english encyclopedia: ? YES NOT
• Do you think that all the previous encyclopedias have bad and incompetent editors? YES NOT

If your test has produced the result

• in the range 10-7: "Ok, you are tenacious opponent and you are consistent with your ideas"
• in the range 6-4: "Ok, you are opponent but you should be more consistent with your ideas"
• in the range 3-0: "What are doing here?"

OK. Last chanche:

• Do you think that this search in Google that has produced 916,000 English pages compared with this other with 59,900 results is only a proof that Google works only with "italian nationalists" and (perhaps) also Google's engineers are "italian fuc???? Fascists"? YES NOT

In Misplaced Pages a read a lot of "fuzzy" point of view... I have read in french wikipedia that "Mont Blanc" is completely french, I read here that the "italian consitution" made also a mistake because the name "Trentino-Alto Adige" is wrong and a crazy creation, but in any case I'm accused also to be "nationalist". Here I'm only asking the reason of differences between WIKIPEDIA and the other encyclopedias.

Have a nice test :) --Ilario 15:28, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

The main reason why I am adamantly against changing this article's name to Trentino-Alto Adige is because my various attempts at finally getting East Timor moved to Timor-Leste have been in vain, despite the facts that

• Timor-Leste is also used in English - not the case for Alto Adige; and that
• all inhabitants of Timor-Leste call their country Timor-Leste or Timor Lorosa'e, but definitely not East Timor; and that
• the government of Timor-Leste has definitely requested, in the same way the goverment of Côte d'Ivoire did, to be referred to as Timor-Leste in all languages.

All these arguments were defied by the wikipedia policy of "use English name if available". So if this is the highest level of policy to go by, this article's name has to be Trentino-South Tyrol, and nothing else. Feel free to disprove my point, but if you do, please also attempt to contribute to this discussion about a very similar problem... File:Austria flag large.png ナイトスタリオン ✉ 16:11, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

The difference is that other encyclopedias are made by specialists who understand the difference between "administrative name" and "common name". This is the idea that an anonymous user can take. --Ilario 17:12, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

This doesn't mean Misplaced Pages should be factually incorrect, though... Either way, we're only discussing this single page move here. Since we have to use the English name, it's South Tyrol. If we were to use the "undisputed official name" or "self-identifying name", it'd have to be Trentino-Alto Adige/Trentino-Südtirol, BTW, which looks horrible, so the language-neutral Trentino-South Tyrol is actually a good compromise. File:Austria flag large.png ナイトスタリオン ✉ 19:27, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand, are you saying that Latium, Lombardy, Piedmont, Apulia, Tuscany, Sardinia, Sicily and Aosta Valley should be renamed as well using the italian name instead of the english one? Or that Trentino-South Tyrol is not english (or not widespread in english)? --Snowdog 16:15, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

@Ilario: I do not know if know that South Tyrol is es official translation of both the administrativ an geografic official name of the nordermost province in Italy to with in Italian is refered as Alto Adige, a name never used bevor 1928. The itlain name of this region shut be or Tirol meridionale o Sudtirolo--MartinS 08:31, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

What's in a name?

Personally, I think this discussion is now mainly driven by nationalistic spirits on a bilingual area.
Not being an English mother-tongue, in order to add my contribution, I had a look on the Collins Coincise Dictionary - 21 Century Edition. It states that Trentino-Alto Adige is a region in Italy and that South Tyrol (or Tirol) "in 1919 became the Bolzano and Trento Provinces of the Trentino-Alto Adige Autonomous Region"
This could support the Alto-Adige theory, but, actually, as long as there is a link from one lemma to the other, the result is the same. Those who look for Trentino-Alto Adige and those who search Trentino-South Tyrol will end up on the same page.
So I borrow Shakespeare's words: what's in a name? Aren't we just "discussing on the angel's gender"(Italian expression meaning "talking on useless things")? :-) --Adriano 20:32, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

My granfather died for the right to use german in South Tyrol (I don't blame the italians voting here, it seems they don't know the South Tyrolean history, so they can't be blamed for what their fathers did to us).

So is it just a "angel's gender" or is it something to die for...? Fantasy 容 22:56, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I've got to know how your grandfather died for German in Trentino-Alto Adige. How did you end up being born? Or was he blown up while trying to plant a bomb during the terrosism era? Don't belittle others by claiming only you seem to know the history. 192.45.72.27 22:11, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Your grandfather, admit it or not, was a German colonizer in what was for centuries Roman/Italian land. Enough of this claim by the Austrian-Hungarian imperialists over

former colonies. You had almost all of Italy at one time, not any more, and never again.

Dear Fantasy

First of all PEACE! The aim of my contribution was to calm down this discussion. This is Misplaced Pages, and not the terrain for political fights.

I repeat: call it in a way or another, the substance does not change. The sentence "What's in a name?" is taken from Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. It goes on like this "That which we call a rose by any other word would smell as sweet."

And YES, I hope this discussion on how to call an entry in Misplaced Pages will remain on an "angel's gender"-type and not become something to die for...

My humble opinion is: what about burying the hatchet, leaving everything as it is and concentrating instead on the enrichment of Misplaced Pages with new entries rather than with endless discussions?

Those contributors who have English as their mother-tongue will be able to take the best decision on this matter. They will be less influenced by either Italian or German languages and they will certainly rely on purely linguistic matters... And, if you think about it, provided that there is a link from the excluded lemma, nothing really changes... --Adriano 00:18, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

The problem is not in the translation of the name in italian or in german. The italian constitution says: Art.116 "Il Friuli Venezia Giulia, la Sardegna, la Sicilia, il Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol e la Valle d'Aosta/Vallee d'Aoste dispongono di forme e condizioni particolari di autonomia, secondo i rispettivi statuti speciali adottati con legge costituzionale." It accept the two names. But I don't understand because a lot of english encyclopedias uses the translation for other italian regions (like Latium) and not for this region.

Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol (like says italian constitution) or Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol could be an acceptable denomination not so different from other encyclopedias and more accurate. --Ilario 09:12, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Adriano,

Thanks for Shakespeare's words. And thanks for the peace.

I knew from the title that you were referring to Shakespeare, my favorite play, I know it by heart (nearly ;-)

...but then when I saw you referring to this problem as "angel's gender" discussion, I always have the problem to aks myself if my granfather died for the right thing. I think he has gone too far, but on the other side I am not sure if I would have had the possibility to go to a german scool if he would not have done what he has done, If the italians would have succeeded with getting rid of us germans.

I love the italians, I love the way they live, I have many italian friends, real friends, especially also from the italian Misplaced Pages. My granfather never did anything against any italian person. He just fighted for the right to have the same rights as the italians have. And I think we are currently in a situation where german and italian speaking people in South Tyrol can really live together without problems. But it is a delicate equilibrium. And therefore the feelings sometimes get strong when someone touches this equilibrium.

I think, talking about equilibrium, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol would be something that gives the same right to both languages, I would support that. Thanks for this good proposal, Ilario!

Just to make it clear: I love the italians and I am sure that we can all go along well if we respect each other and work together, thanks to everyone :-) Fantasy 容 19:34, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I hereby propose then two have a vote between the options Trentino-South Tyrol, Trentino-Alto Adige, and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. Agreed? File:Austria flag large.png ナイトスタリオン ✉ 09:02, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Take care with starting a new vote. Starting it too fast and not prepared well enough can be counterproductive. Maybe let some time pass, let people calm down, and then we start a well prepared vote. What do you say? ;-) Fantasy 容 16:55, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

PS: This page is far too unstructured, I think a general restart of the discussion and archiving a big part of this page (summaries can stay) is necessary...

Dear Fantasy,

Thanks for the reply.

Just a little comment on your sentence "if the italians would have succeeded with getting rid of us germans". Having had relatives fighting on the Italian side during WW1 I can assure you that many soldiers were against that war and any italianization process. The proof of this: something like the Christmas Truce happened on this front as well!!

Keeping the discussion on a purely academic level helps calming things down... --Adriano 09:10, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

During a meeting of the italian wikipedian in Brixen we found a compromice:

1. Etsch - Adige shut be Adige with redirect from Etsch
2. English translations like South Tyrol shut be used
3. for Cities an villages in South Tyrol the german name shut be used if there are more etnic germans then italians (the same for ladin villages)
4. Eisack - Isarco shut be Eisack with redirect from Isarco for it flows only true mainly german areas of South Tyrol--MartinS 08:38, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Great, many problems really would be solved easier if we could sit down together, I think this is a good sign that italian and german Wikipedian sat down together to find a solution and found one that seems (to me at least) ok.

I am really sorry that I was not able to attend that meeting, but I see that you "worked" well, nice to see this result.

Thanks from the heart every italian and german speaking Wikipedian who helped find a solution :-) Fantasy 容 17:41, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Please have a look at Talk:Bozen-Bolzano#A_proposal_from_a_meeting_between_german_and_italian_speaking_Wikipedians and tell me if I understood the proposal right, thanks :-) Fantasy 容 17:53, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

• • • The fact that Italian and German wikipedians wish to work together for a solution (to what exactly I am not sure) cerainly brings a tear to my eye - but what has that got to do with the English language wikipedia? People are looking for a solution to a problem that does not exist - Trentino-South Tyrol is fine for the moment as the main title for the english language article. As I have said elsewhere, if we note the english speaking press referring to this region as Trentino-Alto Adige (or whatever else), then, and only then, would I think that a change is required. For the moment, I believe that most English speakers are willing to leave it as is (and I can assure everyone that I do not have any political axe to grind or any chip to extract from my shoulder, and apologies in advance for using metaphors in such a pathetic manner!). --pippudoz - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 23:00, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

why not Trentino-South Tyrol (Trentino-Alto Adige)?

If english mother language people think that Trentino-South Tyrol is the best choice, I think they perfeclty know what they're doing: they know the language they speak, I guess! All the issues about the complex history of that part of the world can be explained in the article itself. What really matters, in my point fo view, is not if Google (or others) get more results with Trentino-Alto Adige than with Trentino-South Tyrol, but how many english speaking people digit the first or the last.
To reach everbody, however, why not calling it Trentino-South Tyrol (Trentino-Alto Adige)? In it.wiki such solutions are not so uncommon. Reaching nearly everybody should be everybody's main aim ever, on every wikipedias. We're not there to quarrel about history and personal memories, that are pretty harsh to manage above all when referred to that part of our history (Fascism, indipendence and it's freedom martyrs, WWII, and so on).

Tinette 09:17, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Just to add something to the discussion above: I do not opt for the use of South-Tyrol out of any nationalistic sentiment (then I would probably use Süd Tirol), but because this spelling is very widespread in the English speaking world (an even the Italian ministry for tourism uses it). We may keep Alto-Adige as a redirect, so everyone is happy, because you still end up on the correct page. If everything else fails, someone could file an Rfc about this. But if you want to have a look how a problem like this can get out of hand, see the discussion about the naming of Gdansk Lectonar 10:48, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

That way everything should be correct

Ok: the real name of the "object" is Trentino-Alto Adige, since it's Italian and a part of the Italian Nation. Historical sorrows are not a part of THIS topic, so please forget them for a while.
After a long discussion on the it.wiki ML we have arrived at the conclusion that the correct name should be "Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol", or "Trentino-Alto Adige (Trentino-South Tyrol), because there's a pretty well known english translation of Alto Adige: South Tyrol, and we are talking about en.wiki.
That way the name is correct from an enciclopedian point of view (all the others refer to it this way). It's correct from an historical/geografical point of view, too, because the "object" is Italian anyway. It's "ergonomic" for the user 'cause it still keeps the english translation so everybody can find it quickily.
Plus the habit of translating every name in other languages was more common in the past, but nowadays we all tend to call something in it's original name, if possible. This can sound odd, but it's easier (and respectful) on a global point of view: one name instead of many.
An example: Bombay turned to Mumbai recently, 'cause this is the sound of the capital's name in the Indian main languages. And now that's the name on every new map. The same is happening to other Indian cities.

Tinette 11:55, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I cannot agree with one point in your argumentation: It's correct from an historical/geografical point of view, too, because the "object" is Italian anyway. That is factually wrong. The "object" in question is Italian and Austrian, and the official languages are Italian and German, so the article name should contain both (following the "use official name" policy) or neither (following the "use English name" policy). File:Austria flag large.png ナイトスタリオン ✉ 16:23, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh, please. This talk is beginning to sound ridicolous. Nightstallion, according to what you said we should name this article "Trentino-Alto Adige/Trentino SüdTirol (Trentino South Tyrol)"? I don't think so.

This Region can be called in two ways:

• Trentino-Alto Adige: most correct in a legal point of view and more used on the web (Google docet), but not translatable.
• Trentino-Süd Tyrol: german version of the name. Often used by the English people to indicate the region, but not always. More: it is translated in "South Tyrol", that's more english.

Ok, then. I think that "Trentino-Alto Adige (Trentino South Tyrol)" is the better-in-the-middle: it includes "Trentino-Alto Adige" (more "enciclopedical"), and "Trentino-Süd Tyrol" (in the translated version "Trentino-South Tyrol"; more commonly used).

Ah, naturellement I apologize for my awful english :D

--Gatto Nero 16:41, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

IMHO the article should contain the two definitions like Bozen-Bressanone. In this case Trentino-Alto Adige/Süd Tirol translating all it is possible. --Ilario 17:49, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

You've got my full support for Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, as well. Maybe we should call a new vote between the three options Trentino-South Tyrol, Trentino-Alto Adige, and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol? File:Austria flag large.png ナイトスタリオン ✉ 18:13, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

It would be good, but I almost suspect that Gryffindor uses multiple accounts to push his agenda. He has an ultra-Austrian mindset. He avoids all direct conversations, just like a good politician. :)

This looks like a good compromise, support -- 62.178.220.23 18:26, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Oppose Not to spoil the party, this compromise might work in parliament and in politics, but not here. Otherwise we would need to have Vallée d'Aoste/Valle d'Aosta, and also Schweiz/Suisse/Svizzera/Svizra, Kärnten/Koroška, maybe Friuli-Venezia Giulia/Friaul-Julisch Venetien, when English names exist. This is an english Misplaced Pages, best to use the English names, and gives this national naming-debate a rest. Gryffindor 22:03, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm really confused by your constant pushing for this Gryffindor. You are using double talk to continually push your agenda. You even go against Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol, and it is not surprising..

Support This is the best idea I've seen, and it does spoil someone's attempt at revisionism (using the South Tyrol). Using Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol as well as Bolzano/Bozen is perfect.

Hello User:192.45.72.27, please use the tildes ~ when leaving a message. I also read your previous comments left in the talk history about "hidden agendas" and "colonizers", please tone down your voice a little bit, no need to use such language. The only "agenda" that you could possibly accuse me off is to use English in the English Misplaced Pages whenever possible. If you have a problem with that, well then... Gryffindor 13:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

First of all, its not your place to ask others to tone their voices down. Colonizer is not a dirty word and I have the right to express my opinion that you appear to have some agenda. Do not try to dodge the core discussion by saying you're sole purpose is to defend English usage in Wiki, we are all not that naive. I've seen the history where you have repeatedly gone through and unilaterally changed everything to South Tyrol and are adament about not using any other name except the one you insist on. I am an English speaker with my roots (mostly Italian, partially Austrian) in the region (where are your roots, Vienna?). The majority in the English World (I live in USA, have lived in UK) know little or nothing of what this region is called, so by you going and insisting on South Tyrol you are creating a bias to the Germanic viewpoint. It just so happens that Sud-Tirol easily translates into English by even non-German speakers who visit, but this is not an excuse to how to name the region. I believe that the idea of Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol was a very good one. Perfect, actually, and it was entertaining to read your reasons (i.e., grabbing at straws) to why its not acceptible. Sorry if its too tough a tone for you, but saying we are respecting Engish by making it South Tyrol is hogwash. It looks like to me you are trying to push a defacto name of South Tyrol in the International language of English. If you don't like that someone sees something fishy in what you are doing.. that is really your tough luck. I for one will support the fair, in the middle, compromise of Alto-Adige/Sud-Tirol. I'm very interested to see how far you will go to have only one International name, you're "South Tyrol".

Hello User:192.45.72.27, again please use the ~ tildes when signing, that is standard in Misplaced Pages. I'm afraid you are taking this whole thing a little too personal, nobody is trying to work here against anyone, so please just relax. I can understand your viewpoint, however this is the English Misplaced Pages, not Esperanto or what have you. May I suggest you familiarise yourself with the rules first if you haven't done so yet: Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (use English). Based on consensus and research that has been done, the common English name for Alto Adige/Südtirol = South Tyrol. You can check these official websites Region Trentino - South Tyrol, Official website of South Tyrol for further references. regards Gryffindor 12:18, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Its awesome that you study politics Gryffindor, it fits you're personality perfectly. Feel sorry for you. You are making a unilateral decision to make things South Tyrol because you have an Austrian agenda. Maybe one of us will just change it to Alto Adige/Sudtirol, as you had made your chance unilaterally in the past. You are the one taking it personal, because it shows on here that you are completely -obsessed- with keeping it your way, South Tyrol. A doctor may be in need! :)

Leaving the decision to English mother-tongues only?

IMHO However you call it, as long as there is a link from the other(s) option(s), everybody should be happy. But, as Tinette says, only contributors with English as mother-tongue should take a decision on the primary name.
Why? Because, unlike most -if not all!- of those participating in this discussion, (me included):

1- "they know the language they speak, I guess!" (Quoted from Tinette)

2- They are less likely to be influenced by historical/cultural/you-name-it aspects linked to the local linguistic etc. conflicts in this bilingual area.

3- They are less influenced by other languages.

What do you all think about this point? Should we stop posts, leaving room to English mother-tongues only for discussing on this point, on purely linguistic basis? --Adriano 22:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Native speakers may apply forthwith

• I am an Italo(siculo)-Australian whose native tongue is English. It's clear to me that South Tyrol is likely to mean more to a native speaker than Alto Adige (I didn't really know much about the latter term until this whole discussion flared up, but I have always known the name South Tyrol). I also note that the table carries the full official name in both Italian and German. So as long as we have all the potential redirects working correctly, I don't really see a need to do much more here. Having said all that, Tinette makes a valid point that at least at the national level, there is a trend in English to use the name that is official and current in the country concerned. So political history and histrionics aside, there remains a valid linguistic argument for going with the official name, but I believe the time to make the change, should it ever come, will be when we see evidence of use of the term in the broader English speaking media. Until evidence of such usage is clear, we should go with what we know, and that is South Tyrol. Salutamu. --pippudoz - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 02:42, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
• I get the impression that a clear consensus for any form of change did not eventuate. Not only that, I am still waiting to hear from others who: 1. do not come to this discussion with some political baggage; 2. who are native speakers of English. That being the case, I am wondering whether the discussion is now at an end and whether the warning box should now be removed(?) --pippudoz - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 11:45, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

pippudoz wonders why English native speakers without political baggage don't intervene in this discussion. Maybe because this discussion is mainly based on politics...

I agree on the point that, unless a few English native speakers intervene, this discussion on changing the name of this lemma should come to an end... --Adriano 15:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

"Object" and ergonomy of use

Trentino Alto-Aldige is Italian because it has to follow Italian laws, go for voting in Italian election, has a region party that has seats in Italian parliament, pay taxes to Italy, is in Italy. Surely the German identity has great importance: we all know and, belive me, it wolud be really hard to forget. That's why Italy has fixed special laws to protect that identity and apply that laws every day. That's way we pay respect to this historical heritage every time we have to.
May I remind to you all (last but not least) that Trentino is a very well-off country because its people are more respectful and polite then other, have a good regional management (better than others) and because Italy pay for MANY different things, in taxes discounts, to Special Status Regions: Valle d'Aosta, Trentino Alto-Adige, Friuli, Sicilia, Sardegna.
Trentino use this money far better then others, but it still is italian money that Italy give these regions to help them grow up better.
Morover, most regions near the italian borders speak two languages: in Valle d'Aosta both Italian and French (i.e.) are spoken and both are studied in school (compulsory).
English speaking people know their language and have do decide how is better naming it from a communicating point of view. Italian people know their history and geography. These are different things, let split them once for all.
I think that the article should be named Trentino Alto-Adige/South Tyrol SIMPLY AND ONLY because Trentino Alto-Adige is the most used name in main english enciclopedias. I guess this the whole it.wiki point of view too: if Trentino was know and referencend at as "JohnDoe", we were proposing "JohnDoe" and nothing else. South Tyrol should be mantained because it's the better English Translation of the term and this is of top importance for users easy of use.
While "Bolzano-Bozen" is "one" name, as "Dublin-Baile Atha Cliath". Both are written on national and international maps e both have to be manteined the way they are.
Misplaced Pages is growing in importance and has, on the odd occasion, surpassed Britannica 'cause the wikipedians around the world had chosen to be NPOV. So, stick to the point and write down only strictly factual information which is likely to be of help to all users. I think that is more important than all the rest and that we all must continue following this route. English, Italian, German, or whatever.

Tinette 13:30, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

A message to foreigners

To us native English speakers the damned place is called South-Tyrol! So for God's sake stick to Trentino-South Tyrol! It is of no relevance to us Anglo-Saxons what natives of any region in the world happen to call their home - that may sound a little fascist, but that's how name giving works I'm afraid. I'm not going to start calling Venice Venezia just because Italians feel offended by the name Venice! Sorry to have to say this to Italian contributors - but the fact that South Tyrol now belongs to Italy is an injustice brought about in part by us Anglo-Saxon Allies after the First World War and I think we should retain the right to call the place South Tyrol! This encylopedia is written for the English-speaking world - interestingly a lot of non-native English speakers wish to participate in the widespread sucess of the English language by contributing to this encyclopedia - fine, but don't start telling us how to speak English!

Finally a clear comment, thank you anonymous contributor! --Adriano 17:22, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Seems that on this subject there is a real war (just click on "History" for the offensive comments deleted by Nightstallion). Will it ever be possible to carry out a NPOV discussion on this matter, without slinging mud at each other? --Adriano 12:17, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, as an Austrian, I can say that most people in Austria consider this matter to be closed and South Tyrol as belonging to Italy. A sizeable minority in Tyrol might think otherwise (even the Landeshauptmann recently said something about the Unrechtsgrenze (border of injustice) to the south, but I'm not sure in what context it was or how seriously it should be taken), but I think it's even less of an issue now that we're all part of the EU. ナイトスタリオン ✉ 12:25, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello there - I'm the author of the first contribution to this section and I just wanted to say to whoever called me a "fucking German": by the look of your diction it strikes me that your mother tongue is not English... As to the content of your comment - anyone who's English and has done a little skiing in the Alps will have heard of Tyrol, possibly even South-Tyrol. I cant't speak for Americans. I would also like to say that it is both regrettable and shocking to see what sort of people get involved in some Misplaced Pages projects - one of the reasons that ultimately I tend to rely on the Encyclopedia Brittanica and not Misplaced Pages.

Where did anyone use the F-word on this page? I do not see it in the history.

IP 71.105.111.73 used the word "fucking German" in his edit from 29 November 2005, 10:27, . Although removed by him one minute later. I hope because he felt sorry. Gugganij 11:12, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Italy was occupied by Austria-Hungary for many decades. Now that the last parts were liberated and unified with the Republic is proper. As someone from Trento, I disagree with the user that has changed everything to South Tyrol, which is merely a translation of the German. There is no English translation per se, just like Parma, is Parma, etc. I suggest using Trentino-Alto Adige, as is used at the CIA world factbook, etc. The "anonymous" user above should explain the Anglo-Saxon "injustice", which is interesting indeed. I for one do not believe the Anglo is really what he says because there is again this hidden agenda to give it the name of the Austrian colonizers.

The "Anglo-Saxon" is Gryffindor.

Come on. I'm certainly not a revisionist nor a nationalist, but South Tyrol had been part of Tyrol for quite some time before the state of Italy actually started to unify. ;) ナイトスタリオン ✉ 11:45, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry if you thought I meant you Nightstallion. I've seen your viewpoint has been quite fair and mature. It was Gryffindor I feel has some political agenda. I noticed you agreed with the dual Alto Adige/Sudtirol idea, and I also agree with this strongly. I'm very attached to this region, I love everything from Innsbruck to Trento. I personally feel shocked to see this obviously one-sided push for South Tyrol as the International name of the region by Gryffindor. In my opinion, if you are really from the area, love the area, you will respect the area. The best way I've seen so far is for Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol to be used... full stop.

Dear all - it's me again, the one who wrote the first bit in this section. I shall contribute one last time to this discussion and then leave for good, since I have no interest whatsover in getting involved any further in petty nationalist disputes. First things first: I AM British - I studied German literature at Oxford University and thus have detailed knowledge of German culture and history. My remarks were meant to be helpful in a humourous sort of way, but I now understand that some people here find Anglo-Saxon humour a little hard to take. Persistently calling my nationality into doubt in order to discredit my remarks suggests only one thing to me: that that person has a hidden nationalist agenda, certainly not me! As for anyone's astonishment concerning the idea of injustice - here's a little history for you. The medieval Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation once included more or less all German-speaking regions of today - including South Tyrol. It was the Bavarians who first brought German rule to South Tyrol not long after the fall of the Roman Empire, thus filling a power vacuum. South Tyrol has been German for some 1000 years and it is therefore incorrect to call it a German colony. Doing so suggests that you're not acquainted with modern standards of impartial historiography. Well, it's Italian now and frankly, who cares? I'm not suggesting South Tyrol should become Austrian again - so keep cool if you're an Italian reader (it won't anyway!). I very much hope that all of these silly conflicts will disappear in an ever stronger future European Union. Although fiercely proud of the legacy of the British Empire I am nonetheless able to cast a critical eye on British shortcomings - for instance in Northern Ireland. It would be nice if Italians could do the same - my God, why worry about South Tyrol when there's so much great Italian history and culture from Augustus to the Renaissance to Umberto Eco? If you're so keen on establishing an Italian perspective here, why not stick to the Italian Misplaced Pages? Now feel free to insult me - I shall only reply if your insult is witty and amusing. So long!

I'm sorry to say, but for you to comment that "South Tyrol" is "German" for 1,000 years is a completely partial statement. My family is from Trentino for centuries and I have plenty of relatives from Bolzano/Bozen (Alto Adige/Sudtirol). To say it has a mixed history you can be fair, beginning as a Roman province and being part of Germanic governments, yes. To say its German for 1,000 years is absolutely absurd. I believe the idea of calling Alto Adige/Sudtirol compliments the truth. Trying to suggest the English is now and forever South Tyrol obviously is biased in one direction. This is definitely not impartial to the Italians that have this as their historical home. Why not dig up the first Roman name in that case?? Also, to maintain strict impartial historiography, as you say.. the area was settled by Romans and later colonized by Germanic people. This is the true history. I don't care, I love the region and the history is what makes it my home, it is what it is.

Well, if you're going along that vein: Austria was first settled by Celts and Hungarians... ;) ナイトスタリオン ✉ 11:06, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I feel intrigued enough by your comments to reply once more - South Tyrol being German for a thousand years was supposed to mean that it was ruled by Germany. Of course Austrians will probably be out to lynch me now! Europe really is such a mess! I realise that there was an Italian minority in the region for some time. As for your remarks concerning the name: I'm afraid you're mixing up politics with language and name-giving. Alto Adige/Südtirol is NOT ENGLISH! If an Austrian/German came along and told me to call the region "Südtirol" here, I'd tell him to get lost. As an Italian native you may regret that the English-speaking world has adopted the German name and anglicised it, but it's a part of our language now and there's no turning back. I've asked around here and some have heard of Tyrol, nobody knew South Tyrol and nobody's ever heard of Alto Adige - which is Italian and not English. Getting upset about this is as ridiculous as Germans getting annoyed about being called "German". In this instance the English language adopted the Latin name - the French say "Allemands", which is closer to original German, since there was a Germanic tribe called the "Allemannen". The Germans call themselves "Deutsch" which I think stems from "Teutsch" and "Teutonisch" - so if we wanted to be fair to the Germans we'd have to call them the "Teutons". Well sorry Germans - but you're just going to have to accept being called "Germans". And the Italians will have to accept "South Tyrol" on this page (that is to say: "Trentino-South Tyrol" of course!).

Yep, and the Scandinavian states mostly use derivatives of Sachsen. It's quite amusing to see how many different words for "German" the different languages have managed to collect... ナイトスタリオン ✉ 11:06, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

For the record, I am from Trento, and my opinion is that Englisk Wiki should use the most common English name. This said, accept a little precisation on the history of Trentino and Südtirol, starting a thousens years ago: in 1027 Emperor Conrad II gave the bishops of Trento and Bressanone/Brixen temporal power. The dimensions of their domains varied through the centuries, and their indipendance was continually put to test first by the Counts of Tyrol and then, after their line died out and the Habsburg inherited the title, by Austria. Indeed anyone shecking the long line of prince-bishops of Trento will find that the majority of them had Germanic names. However, this state of things went on until the Napoleonic wars: in 1796 the French army entered in Trento. There followed many changes, with the region changing hand between Austria and France several times, until in 1803 all ecclesiastic mini-states were suppressed. But lo, in 1805 Tyrol (including Trentino) was annexed to Bavaria, starting the famous revolt led by Andreas Hofer. Both the Tyrolean ethnicities fought for the return of Austria. After finally Hofer lost his war, in 1810 both Trento and Bolzano/Bozen were given to the Kingdom of Italy, while the northern part of Tyrol went to Bavaria again. 1815 saw the restoration of Austria, and the inglobation of Trentino in the larger Tyrol, under heavily punitive representation in the local parliament (7 on 52); however, the factual truth is that the common people was satisfied with the regime. On a political level, instead, Italian-speaking representatives trusted Vienna more than Innsbruck to defend their interests, while being frustrated in continuous requests to be established as an independant province. This situation basically remained untouched until the Great War, when Italy gained Trentino and Alto Adige/Südtirol, mainly because the Brenner border would have been much easier to defend than the mere Trentino-Tirol one. Note #1: Italian Tyrol is the heart of Tyrol, as proven by the presence in the territory of both village and castle Tyrol. Note #2: Brothers of Trento, cousins of Austria: even in the darkest hour our populations have not resorted to bloody feuding. Shall we really get so riled on a name? Let it be called how it's called in English... Tridentinus, 9 December 2005

Let me add an anecdote I heard in history lessons: Supposedly, Italy gained South Tyrol due to a (deliberate?) misunderstanding. Austria and Italy had signed a truce. Austria thought that the truce was binding as soon as the document had been signed; Italy, however, thought that the truce only started at midnight of the day it was signed (and rightfully so, AFAIK). Then, Italians marched through all of South Tyrol, while the Austrian military didn't realize what the heck was going on, and that's why the border is where it is.

I've never seen any source for that anecdote, but I'd be interested if anyone can confirm or discount it; I usually trust my ex-history teacher on such matters, but he's occasionally been slightly wrong before. ;) ナイトスタリオン ✉ 07:09, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

The truce that was signed (3/XI1918) between Austria and Italy already requested that the Imperial-Royal army should retire beyond Brenner. Mind, this had been the plan all along: in 1915 Vienna offered Italy, in exchange for neutrality, Trentino (up to Lavis, (8 Km north of Trento), Gorizia, Trieste, a few island of the dalmatian coast, but Italy wanted more of Trentino. This request ended written into the treaty of London (1915), this time up tp Brenner. So, no accident. Regarding the end of WWI, it happened that the Austrian forces, who, let's recall, had missed the chance of turning around militarily the Italian front at Caporetto simply because they were so badly starved they wasted time to sack the provenders left behind by the retiring Italian army, just stopped fighting immediately. This resulted in plenty of them being captured; afterwards the high officers negotiated for a coordinated retire/advance, so as to avoid the capture of soldiers simply because of the difficulty of a fast retire. On the event of the armistice misunderstanding, the word of the "Wehrzeitung" (the Austrian army newspaper): "1 - At the beginning of November, before the armistice was signed, the whole front from Adige to Adriatic was collapsing; 2 - The idea that the enemy should have ceased hostilities before 15.00 of 4 November is unjustified: all officers should have known that for the enemy is just impossible to cease effectively hostilities the precise moment a truce is signed, because spreading the news along an extensive front requires many hours; " I think they just read into the communication what they wanted to hear, that is, that it was over, and didn't read carefully. Tridentinus, 9 December 2005

Gryffindor

It should be made clear that this individual Gryffindor came and made edits on:

15:39, 25 October 2005 Gryffindor m (Trentino-Alto Adige moved to Trentino-South Tyrol)

Unilaterally making a decision on such a change and now feels he has the right to mark this change in stone and goes against others who make a similar edit. This is unethical.

Requested move #X

If the anonymous user insists... I present, vote # umpteen. —Nightstallion (?) 23:17, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Oppose. Current name is neutral without being incorrect. —Nightstallion (?) 23:17, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
• Do we really have to go through this exercise again? Oppose of course. Gryffindor 23:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Gryffindor made up the name Trentino-South Tyrol and imposed it in the first place -without- a vote. First of all, you can not just make up names that go against what any other major information source shows. Secondly, you can't impose this change unilaterally and then make it the issue that has to be voted on. Thirdly, how can we make a fair vote in such a forum? You have to go by the facts. Trentino-Alto Adige is the official name used in Italian and English maps. If you want a compromise Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol is acceptable. Trentino-South Tyrol is 110% inflamatory and is in no way neutral. Nightstallion, you should know this. Gryffindor.. well we know what he has done and what he will do. 192.45.72.27 00:50, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Open letter to Gryffindor: Are you 12 years old? You say this POV pushing is annoying? Do you think everyone can't see through what you are doing? You should be ashamed, as a European and as a Human. You try to make up a new term to call the region and make Wiki a political forum. You should be incredibly ashamed. YOU are the only one who is pushing POV. 192.45.72.27 00:53, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:South_Tyrol"