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:::So is Vjosë, see . ] <sup>]</sup> 13:57, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
:::So is Vjosë, see . ] <sup>]</sup> 13:57, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
::There is no doubt that Vjose comes from the many Aoos based-variances of names. ] is a 6th century AD writer and he mentions it as Boious (]: Βοϊούς). 600 years before any Albanians are mentioned in what is now ''north Albania'' let alone the southern part. Vjose is the form of the name in the modern Albanian language.] (]) 14:04, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
::There is no doubt that Vjose comes from the many Aoos based-variances of names. ] is a 6th century AD writer and he mentions it as Boious (]: Βοϊούς). <s>600 years before any Albanians are mentioned</s> in what is now ''north Albania'' let alone the southern part. Vjose is the form of the name in the modern Albanian language.] (]) 14:04, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
::Aoos is the most prominent name due to the historicity of the region, it was just Aoos for most of its history, and the rendition of it as Vjose is a recent one. ] "If the river is particularly famous or most commonly mentioned under one name, then choose that name."] (]) 14:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
::Aoos is the most prominent name due to the historicity of the region, it was just Aoos for most of its history, and the rendition of it as Vjose is a recent one. ] "If the river is particularly famous or most commonly mentioned under one name, then choose that name."] (]) 14:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
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The name was Aoos and the predominant name used in scholarship is Aoos, and since antiquity. Vjose is later name.Megistias (talk) 21:05, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I think what should be leading in choosing the title for this article is what is most used in English, not which name was used first (which might be debatable, who knows which name the ancient Illyrians used). My guess is that both names (Aoos and Vjosë) are used in English, and that there is no clear preference, but prove me wrong. See WP:NCGN#Multiple local names and WP:RIVERS#Rivers with multiple names for guidelines. Markussep21:13, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
But that doesn't show which name is predominantly used. In google there are 91,400 results for Aoos many of which refer to totally different subjects like the Alaska Ocean Observing System, while for Vjosë there are 196,000 results. We agree to disagree so I think we should ask for other users' opinions.--ObserverFromAbove (talk) 21:30, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Per ObserverFromAbove reasoning, I am undoing User:Athenean. Indeed Aoos in Google gives results that have nothing to do with the river. Furthermore the river is 71% in Albania and 29% only in Greece, for not talking about the quantity of water found in Albania which is significantly higher than that in Greece and also the basin of water that collects in Albania which also is significantly higher in percentage than 71-29. For all these reasons, Vjose should be the name. This is per wp:names. I recommend that we keep it that way until we reach a consensus, or we put it in RFC. --sulmues (talk) 01:24, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
if everything else is equal, then choose the name for the section of the river closest to the river's mouth, since generally that is where the river is widest.
The arguments about the river's mouth and length and quantity of water are meaningless. The only thing that matter is frequency of usage among reliable sources. A search on Google Books for Aoos river returns 243 hits , and for "Aous river (an alternate spelling) 322 hits . On the other hand, Google book searches for Vjosë river, Vjose river, and Vjosa river return 50 , 48 , and 71 , hits respectively. Thus, among reliable sources, Aoos/Aous seems far more prevalent than Vjose/Vjosa. Raw google searches are meaningless because they contain all kinds of junk (hotels, restaurants, nationalist websites). Athenean (talk) 01:56, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
According to WP:RIVERS#Rivers_with_multiple_names:If the river is particularly famous or most commonly mentioned under one name, then choose that name. The results of the Google Books search confirm that "Aoos" is the most commonly used among reliable sources. Athenean (talk) 02:42, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
What about them? The rule I am quoting is the first one, so it takes precedence over the second one. The last rule only applies if "all else is equal", which is clearly not the case here, because "Aoos" is far more common. By the way, pretty hypocritical of you to revert me claiming that I shouldn't edit while a discussion is going on, when in fact that is exactly what you did. You made a number of controversial changes after I explained on the talkpage that Aoos is more common, completely ignoring my talkpage post. Athenean (talk) 02:55, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
No offense taken, I just restored it to the last stable version (before the discussion and the edit-warring began) and made some improvements to the article (irrelevant to this discussion btw). kedadial03:02, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Aoos: Aoos gives 1582 hits (), so it's an inferior number. In addition even if you look into the first page, NONE of the hits refers to the river. Case closed. --sulmues (talk) 04:06, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
As usual, Sulmues has no idea what he is doing. You have to use "Aoos river" and "Vjose river", not plain Aoos and Vjose. Another thing, many of the hits for "Vjose" and "Vjosë" are duplicates. In general, "Vjosë" should not be used, because in English there are no diacritics ("ë"). Case closed indeed. Athenean (talk) 05:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Guess what: "Vjose river" generates 19,200 hits in Google Books () whereas "Aoos river" generates barely 1,474 (). What can I say more?--sulmues (talk) 08:08, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
This is getting funnier by the minute. Newsflash: You have to use quotes, as in "Vjose river" and "Aoos river" to search for the exact phrase. Otherwise you get all the hits that contain "Vjose" and all the hits that contain "river" (19000 books that mention this mighty river? I mean, come on). But don't bother, I already did it for you above. Why do I bother with people that don't even know how to conduct a proper Google Books search? Athenean (talk) 08:14, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Please remain civil everybody, and let's focus on objective arguments. If we can't get to a satisfactory result, the discussion should be announced at WP:RM. Do we agree on the following arguments?
The river flows through Greece (about 80 km) and Albania (about 190 km)
The source of the river is in Greece, the mouth is in Albania
Both "Aoos" and "Vjosë" (in various forms) are used in English
None of the names is overwhelmingly (e.g. >80%) used in English
I agree on that. Nobody is mentioning it but before consulting Google Books we have to first consult post 1993 English-language encyclopedias (Encyclopedia Britannica, Columbia Encyclopedia, Encarta). After that we go to Google Books. --sulmues (talk) 08:32, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
The redirect wasn't changed, was it? I suggest we leave the article as it is until we've solved this naming problem, uncontroversial changes excepted. Could you comment on my list of arguments? Markussep11:49, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Other than the aforementioned arguments, Aoos is the term used in specialized treatises as well. (Acta hydrochimica et hydrobiologic, 2001)Megistias (talk) 13:49, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
There is no doubt that Vjose comes from the many Aoos based-variances of names. Stephanus of Byzantium is a 6th century AD writer and he mentions it as Boious (Greek: Βοϊούς). 600 years before any Albanians are mentioned in what is now north Albania let alone the southern part. Vjose is the form of the name in the modern Albanian language.Megistias (talk) 14:04, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Aoos is the most prominent name due to the historicity of the region, it was just Aoos for most of its history, and the rendition of it as Vjose is a recent one. Misplaced Pages:RIVERS#Rivers_with_multiple_names "If the river is particularly famous or most commonly mentioned under one name, then choose that name."Megistias (talk) 14:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
You may be right about the origin of the names, I'm not so familiar with Albanian history and etymology. The guideline you quote is valid, but I think there is disagreement about whether the river is particularly famous or most commonly mentioned as "Aoos". WP:NCGN#General guidelines says: "The title: When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it". Unless the river is only mentioned in the context of classical antiquity (which isn't true), we should use the modern name for the title. Classical use is not so relevant then. Markussep14:26, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
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