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Archives

Archive 1 (Oct 2004–Feb 2005) Archive 2 (Feb 2005–Sept 2009)

Lack of Greek loans

One of the reasons for the lack of Greek loans could be also Epirus. Epirus according to Strabo was non-Greek, non-Illyrian and was between the two cultures. —Anna Comnena (talk) 00:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Strabo is a primary source no matter what he writes.What you say does not really stand.Megistias (talk) 00:55, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Epirus according to Strabo was non-Greek, non-Illyrian - this is what Strabo said. Nut of course, it is a great possibility that Illyrians living in cities were all hellenized or romanized. Only people from mountains and remote places could have managed to keep their language. That is why Albanian language could be considered as a relative to Illyrian, all original words in Albanian are from such remote areas as 900-1000 meter above sea level, yet they have a great amount of Roman loans + Gothic (which is weird). —Anna Comnena (talk) 01:04, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

there are more authors...modern too...and evidence than strabo...perhaps you need to revive the old 'epirotans are pelasgians' theory.. so anyway what are the 'ancient epirotan' loans in albanian?87.202.4.77 (talk) 02:24, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

placenames like 'dimale' are better proof of possible albanian illyrian continuity than early greek loans87.202.4.77 (talk) 02:55, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

According to Strabo Epirus was not Greek... Thats actually a POVish statement if we adopt it today, some ancients said they were barbarian some others they were Greek, none Illyrian. There were also ancient Greek authors that stated that Elians, Acarnanians were also barbarians (practically imposible, but the term barbarian didn't had simple ethnic basis). The fact is that we had inscription written in the local NW ancient Epirotic dialect from early 4th B.C., plus an overwhemingly large number of secondaries that state that the region was Greek speaking from the ancient Dark Ages.Alexikoua (talk) 21:29, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I think the term barbarian originally referred primarily to being Greek speaking or not, and there were many non Greek speaking communities in Ancient Greece (Pelasgians). What do you mean by "secondaries"?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:35, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I mean secondary sources Misplaced Pages:SECONDARY#Primary.2C_secondary_and_tertiary_sources. Ancient sources use the term barbarian but it's not always based on a linguistic ground. For example Athenians, also used this term to deride other Greek tribes and states (such as Epirotes, Eleans and Aeolic-speakers) in a pejorative and politically motivated manner.(Barbarians#Origin_of_the_term). Moreover, Epirotes wrote their own distinct dialect of ancient Greek (Northwestern Greek-Epirotic), something that the Pelasgian didn't.Alexikoua (talk) 08:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but the difference is that clear archaeological evidence exists that northern Greece (ie Epirus and macedonia) in prehistory was a seperate cultural and socio-economic entity to Greece proper (central and southern Greece). It is highly probable that this area was only secondarily Hellenized from the south.

Epirotians could well have been barbarians, but not the "proper" Illyrians, which were rather discreet set of tribes in what is now northern Albania/ Montenegro. Just like Pannonians or Dalmatians weren't strictly speaking "illyrians" Hxseek (talk) 07:15, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Archaeology

This article would be enriched if we add an archaeology section. Ie about the Komani culture and the interesting debates regarding its connection, or lack thereof, with 'proto-Albanians'. I can place something in a few weeks. Hxseek (talk) 07:15, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Albanian endonym

"the Albanian endonym being shqiptar, from the term for the Albanian language, shqip, a derivation of the verb shqipoj "to speak clearly", perhaps ultimately a loan from Latin excipio."

The above can not be correct. Robert Elsie needs to learn better Albanian. One's language is called x because one call oneself x and not the other way around.

"shqip(t)oj" does not translate "to speak clearly"...."shqip(t)oj" translates "to pronounce" i.e pronouciation versus spelling. "flas paster" translates "to speak clearly" "flas rrjedhshem" translates "to speak flawlessly"

On the other hand Shqipe and shqiponje are the word for eagle and this is what our elderis know to derive our name from.It is bizarre to have other outside poeple impose explainations on our origins. cant one dicide for onself what they call themselves and why?

Robert Elsie can contact me if he wants some lessons in Albanian language. --Besnikalushi (talk) 10:10, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

It is indeed sometimes a very strange experience on Misplaced Pages when you know something and people doubt you. Please don't get too worried about that because it happens to everyone, and I think experienced Wikipedians totally understand, even if they change your good work and seem not to care. You have to keep in mind that there of constantly hundreds of edits claiming to be by experts, quite often arguing with other people claiming to be specialists. As a community we just need a way of cross checking. The worst cases always come when a source contains a mistake, which can of course happen. You really have to be calm about it and try to find another source. Basically on Misplaced Pages the aim is only to say what has been said somewhere else, not to judge whether what is published is wrong or right. Do you think you can find a source?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:02, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Thankyou but I am the source!my grand parents are the source, my great grand parents and so on! my authority derives from being an Albanian (a literate Albanian) and no one from outside can understand Albanian langauge better than an Albanian which speaks in adition Greek and Italian and can clearly see the influences and fusions.

I challenge the defination of source as aplied by wikipedia.You say "it has to be said somewhere" but it seems that in adition "it has to be said by an westerner".It seems that only Westerners can clasify as a source.

However from a lingustical point of view, are you telling me that Shqipoj/Shqiptoj translates as "to speak clearly"? I will be damded, i dont know my own mother tounge then!!!an albanian dictoniery will conform my resevation! your source Robert, an non Albanian comes and teaches Albanians their own language!!!Probaly we should teach the English the meaning of their own language by intoducing a meaning of our choice!How does that sound to you?

I will change it...because that is how Albanian people know and want the origin of thier name.You can not impose an explaination from outside(cultural imperialism)and get rid of the explaination that the natives give about themselves. --Besnikalushi (talk) 14:31, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

No, really, I know this always sounds strange to people when they learn it, but this happens to EVERYONE on Misplaced Pages, not just Albanians. And yes it can be infuriating if you do not see the reasons this has developed, but there you have it. Concerning the sources you mention, your mother is presumably not published, so a dictionary is better. Do you have a dictionary you can cite? You are welcome to edit articles about English also of course. By the way, I might not be the best adviser, because it is possible that when the sourcing problem results purely from the linguistic ignorance or Wikipedians, there is perhaps a way of calling on people of a certain language? I did a bit of a browse around: --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:14, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Do not remove maps

Please do not remove maps that show Albanians in the VIth and VIIth century. Albanians did not come from the moon in the XIth century: they were there. sulmues--Sulmues 14:22, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The map needs to go, since it is scientificly wrong: a school atlas of a communist regime of 1970... ignoring the entire western bibliographyAlexikoua (talk) 20:36, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Stephanus of Byzantium

"In the 6th century AD, Stephanus of Byzantium in his important geographical dictionary entitled Ethnica (Εθνικά) mention a population called abroi from Adria Taulantii and a city in Illyria called Arbon, with its inhabitants called arbonios and arbonites."

• Stephanus mentions ancient nations in an anachronistic manner, mentioning Chelidonioi, Cimbri and others. They are not claimed to exist at the time. The Cimbri were ancient as where the others and faded long before his time.
• Ethnica, Epitome, page 9,line 7, :Αβροι εθνος προς το Αδρια Ταυλαντινων προσεχες τοις Χελιδονιοις ως Εκαταιος βαυρνεται δ ως Κιμβροι ους τινες φασι Κιμμεριους Σκομβροι και ουτοι εθνος ως Σοφοκλης.
• Ethnica, Epitome, page 110,line 21, : Αρβανιον πολις προς το Ποντω το εθνικον αρβανιος και το θηλυκων εν κοινω γενει Αρβανιος ακτη. City of Pontus.
• Ethnica, Epitome, page 111,line 14, : Αρβών πόλις Ιλλυριας,Πολυβιος δευτερα, το εθνικον Αρβωνιος και Αρβωνιτης, ως Αντρωνιος και Ασκαλωνιτης...
• Arbon, with its inhabitants called arbonios and arbonites. Abri are irrelevant and were even in a different part of Ethnica.

Megistias (talk) 14:24, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

He repeats what Polybius mentioned and that does not warranty claiming that a city was there or that he even claimed it.Megistias (talk) 14:35, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Pliny

Pliny mentions Liburnians in Scardona, which is in Croatia. He may have to be removed alltogether, Croatia is far from Albania and they were mentioned as Liburnians. Its kind of over-reaching to try to link a similar-sounding name with Albanians. Megistias (talk) 12:12, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Arbo

Arbo was a Liburnian island Perseus edu "The Libyrnides are the islands of Arbo, Pago, Isola Longa, Coronata, &c., which border the coasts of ancient Liburnia, now Murlaka."

• Polybius, Histories,2.11,Of the Illyrian troops engaged in blockading Issa, those that belonged to Pharos were left unharmed, as a favour to Demetrius; while all the rest scattered and fled to Arbo. Pharos is an island, and so is Arbo.Megistias (talk) 12:37, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Late antiquity usage of the ethnonym

Aigest, you removed the small section 3 times, diff, diff, diff. In the arguments against Origin_of_the_Albanians#Arguments_against_Illyrian_origin, there are now 5 paragraphs, the first for example speaks of the Albanoi of Ptolemy, and then goes on to the middle ages. The removed section pointed out that even the ethnonym was a misnaming during late antiquity.

• So please readd it.Megistias (talk) 13:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I can not understand the connection with the arguments regarding origin of Albanians. Let's take for eg that part of Albanians were called greeks (misname due to religion) in middle ages. Does this prove anything on the origin? No! Does this disprove anything on the origin? No again! It is not an argument either for proving or disproving. Moreover if you look on the history croatians, bosnians, serbs propably have some kind of Illyrian mixture in their origin. Does the fact that they are called Illyrians in middle ages prove that they derive from Illyrians? No! Does this name/misname disprove their origin? No again! Returning to Albanians in middle ages for byzantine chronicles sometimes they are called Illyrians, (eg Laonikos Chalkokondyles or Mazaris)but does this prove anything on their origin? No! Does this disprove anything? No again! None is based on name Illyrian to prove anything about the origin, the argument is only related to specific name Albani and Albanopolis with it exact location and it is expressed above with its pro and counter view. I repeat again none has brought the mention of general (name/misname) Illyrian to prove anything. It can not constitute an argument. Another eg. Visigoths are not mentioned in middle ages in Spain, but for sure they participated in Spanish people ethnogenesis. Does this mention or non mention constitutes an argument on the origin? No again. Hope I was clear Aigest (talk) 16:32, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

As far as I can see, Ptolemy's Albanoi/Albanopolis is just a geographical term. Are there any sources that these people are actually related to modern Albanians? Otherwise just mentioning the primary source in the article may be original research.--Ptolion (talk) 17:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The Illyrians ceased to exist, and only the term existed, used by the Byzantines geographically. If we ommit that paragraph then we would have to add, and perhaps add it still, that the Illyrians ceased to exist as a nation or in any other aspect. The only remnant of them is a few words. Regarding Albanopolis, its mentioned in related articles and there is no ethnic link between them and Albanians of today, its a way of explaining the Toponym.Megistias (talk) 19:45, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Again you both missed the point. The argument Albanians don't originate from Illyrians because in middle ages other ethnies were called Illyrians is hilarious. It is like sayin that actual Greeks don't originate from old pagan Greeks because in middle ages all christian orthodoxes with Greek rituals (before indipendence of other churches) were called greeks. Do you guys notice the absurdity of this argumentation or it's just me:)

P.S. Albani and Albanopolis arguments are mentioned by all historians and linguists dealing with this topic, with their pro and counter views as in the article, but this Illyrian misname argument is really absurd Aigest (talk) 11:08, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Its a simple issue, Albanopolis and the such is a geographical term and so is the Illyrian term in Late antiquity. That is why the section belongs there. Illyrians(only a few words remain) faded in all aspects while the Greeks remained in most.Megistias (talk) 11:15, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Again, it is different, 1. Illyrians is a general term while Albani and Albanopolis are specific ones making specific reference to tribe, location and to actual Albania name itself (it is obvious to be used as argument) 2. The arguments Albani and Albanopolis are used by all scholars (see sources on the archives of this talk page) 3. Moreover name Albani was used for another hypothesis (Caucasian Albani) so does count as an argument itself 4. No scholar uses the name/misname as Illyrians by Byzantine historians when referring to Albanians in middle ages, as an argument for proving Illyrian descendance, I can not see why it is brought as an argument against this?! .. so in the end it is not the same and I can not understand why do you mess things up here Aigest (talk) 11:26, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Aigest, you're missing my point. There are currently no secondary sources cited for Ptolemy or that he was referring to a people related to modern Albanians. I'm sure they were related, but we need something we can reference.--Ptolion (talk) 16:20, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Ptolion, I am not trying to build up a study of my own, I was just referring to other scholars for their arguments one example here 1950' or here 2000' or here 1860' etc (see archives here). So in the end it was presented as an argument for their origin (wright or wrong is another point). But the misname as Illyrians?! No serious scholar would be based on that for proving or disproving see arguments above on that). Aigest (talk) 16:28, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Hello, I was asked to come and look. Sorry but this is not my field, and my first reading is quick, and so I thought it might just be a good idea to try to summarize and see if I understand. If I understand correctly:

• Aigest is worried that the discussion about the term Illyrian being used loosely in post classical times could be read as implying that it was used to apply to Albanians, which goes beyond what any sources say?
• Ptolion and Megistias do not believe it implies this, and is simply good context information, showing that the term Illyrian was disconnected from classical usage during the Middle Ages, implying only that naming in general got mixed and that the field of theories is relatively open?
• Then as often on Misplaced Pages there is the sourcing rules sub-discussion, which is possibly making discussion a little awkward. Aigest argues that because the Illyria comment implies certain things, it needs sourcing for what it implies. Ptolion points out that in his opinion even the classical terms similar to Albanian are not being sourced well?

From what I read so far this seems like a discussion with lots of possible resolutions, but maybe I am missing something. Once again apologies for how rough this is.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:42, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

The argument is quite valid since it is claimed that the term 'Illyrians' wasn't used as an ethnonym but as an archaism. Fact that account as a counter argument for the Illyrian-Albanian theory. Byzantine sources used very often archaisms to describe people, for example the Turks were termed 'Persians'.Alexikoua (talk) 22:23, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

The source clearly states that the fact that by late antiquity "Illyrians" had become an archaism devoid of meaning is an argument against Illyrian origin of the Albanians. That's what the source says, that's all that matters. Everything else is a bunch of OR. Athenean (talk) 22:36, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Again you are missing a point, how come a name/misname could be used as an counter argument?! Ok, let me put another example, Romaoi (Romans) was the term for byzantine population (as an archaism just like Alex says above) but does this imply that actual Italians don't descend from Romans? The fact that in middle ages many populations in the Balkans are called Illyrians does not prove or disprove anything. Returning to the actual sentence, could be summarized like this : Albanians could not descend from Illyrians because many populations are called Illyrians in middle ages (?!) This is not an argument, this is forcing to sentences together without logic. How could they(Albanians) not descend from Illyrians, since many are called Illyrians in middle ages?! What is the connection or disconnection here? Again when presenting arguments or counter arguments we should rely on author otherwise it became OR, the term Albania, Albani, Albanopolis have been put forward by scholars when proving or disproving the origin of Albanians. One eg is Hammond (from archives in this talk page)

'Albanoi' as a people appeared first in Ptolemy 3.12.20. In his description of the Roman world, the southernmost part of the province Illyricum included Scodra, Lissus and Mt Scardus (Sar Planina); and, adjoining it the northernmost part of 'Macedonia' included the Taulantii (in the region of Tirana) and the Albani, in whose territory Ptolemy recorded one city only, Albanopolis or Albanos polis. Thus the Albani were a tribe in what we now call Central Albania, and they were an Illyrian-speaking tribe, like the more famous Taulantii, in the second century A.D. Men of this tribe appeared next in 1040, alongside some Epirotes (their neighbours on land) and some Italiotes (their neighbours across the sea), in the army of a rebellious general, George Maniakis. Two chieftains of this tribe, Demetrios and Ghin, pursued an independent policy in the early years of the thirteenth century...The gap between Ptolemy and Acropolites is bridged by the mention of "Ducagini d'Arbania" in a seventh-century document at Ragusa (Dubrovnik). These Ducagini instigated a revolt against Byzantine rule in Bosnia and in particular at Ragusa, but they had to submit after the second unsuccessful intervention at Ragusa, to which they were said to have come "de terra ferma," i.e overland (15). The name 'Ducagini' is evidently derived from the Latin 'dux' and the common Albanian name 'Ghin'; indeed an Albanian chieftain in 1281 was referred to as "dux Ginius Tanuschus"(16). Moreover, the leading family of northern Albania from the thirteenth century to the Turkish invasion in the fifteenth century was called 'Dukagjin' (Lek Dukagjini the codifier was one of them), and their properties lay between Lesh (Lissus) and the bend of the Drin. It is here then that we should put the ‘Arbania' of the seventh century. The conclusion that 'Albanians' lived there continuously from the second century to the thirteenth century becomes, I think, unavoidable... N. G. L. Hammond Migrations and invasions in Greece and adjacent areas By Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond Edition: illustrated Published by Noyes Press, 1976 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Jun 24, 2008ISBN 0815550472, 9780815550471

So as you see this has been put forward as an argument by notable scholars (we all agree Hammond is RS do we?). But looking through the sources none of serious scholars puts an argument saying "Albanians descend from Illyrians because they were called Illyrians in middle ages (they were called so by Chalkokondylis, Mazaris etc)" this is not an argument or even a counter argument. Of course Illyrian became an archaism, but if the remaining of Illyrians this tribe Albani kept the name Albani for themselves (in the end none knows how Illyrians called themselves) the generic term Illyrians simply dissapeared and the new name was used now for this population with their specific name Albani, so it the generic term Illyrians does not constitute a pro or counter argument and no serious scholar uses it. Aigest (talk) 09:31, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Aigest, am I correct in saying that your concern is that the mention of the term Illyrian as an archaism is being presented as an argument for something? I looked at the wording removed and it certainly didn't look very obviously like it was being presented as an argument? It just says that the term Illyrian was no longer used in a clear way. If the text said more than this then maybe I would see your concern more clearly.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:16, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

My concern was that it is presented in the section Arguments against Illyrian origin link and I was was explaining above, this (name/misname Illyrians in middle ages) is not an argument pro or counter for the origin. None is denying that the archaism Illyrians was used in middle ages for various populations, but this does not make a pro or counter argument as I have stated (look above for my explanation on the names Illyrians, Albani, Albanopolis or even the archives in this talk page for sources). Am i clear? Aigest (talk) 11:24, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Alban- related names are common ethnonyms of ancient tribes, as well as toponyms. Albanopolis is a toponym, of an obscure town and an even more obscure people that appear in the 2nd century AD, vanish and never reappears. The name at the time was not even Illyrian, the indoeuropean Alb- and Greek -polis in composite word for a settlement. 10 centuries later, similar words by the Byzantines are used but this means nothing as it is an attributed toponym and now just an exonym for Albanians.

• What Hammond thinks, as well as others is clear as the migrations of Albanians come from above Epirus Nova into it during the middle ages. Epirus Nova (most of modern Albania) had Greeks and Romanized populations. Illyricum was above it. But your the quote, Aigest is irrelevant to our discussion. The article itself points out that Albanians originated from the north and were not a coastal people. So that would be Kosovo and above. Northern Albania, the part that was Illyricum is the stretch.
• There is no doubt that only a few words survive from the sum of all that the Illyrians were.
• Illyrians vanished and the name became an "exonym" used in a geographical sense by the Byzantines. That section speaks of the term Illyrians in late antiquity and thus is perfectly relevant. Illyrians and the toponym-exonym issue has to be clear.Megistias (talk) 11:39, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that wiki readers and rules are interested in our personal opinions. Just as you have yours, I may have mines. The concern here was abut the representation of the facts. Arguments pro Illyrian and against Illyrian descendance have been presented in respective sections. According to the discussions we had in this talk page before, these arguments should have been taken from the authors who explicitly mentioned these arguments when dealing with Albanians' origin. Those who support the Illyrian descendance make the connection Albanian-Albani, those who oppose it don't. But most of the academics support the connection of the name Albania-Albani one eg or archives here . Did Albanians always used it for themselves, or did they took it from existing tribe, this is another story, but the fact remains that the connection Albania-Albani (in the end it is the national name) has been used widely regarding discussions Albanian origin. But the fact that Albanians have been called Illyrians sometimes in middle ages has not been put forward as an argument pro Illyrian descendace by serious scholars and I don't see why it should be mentioned as an argument against by serious ones(see explanation above). Aigest (talk) 12:17, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually I am happy to say I can follow most of this, but the bad news is I do not understand the disagreement. I'd say that the fact that a lot of ethnic seeming designations in the Middle ages were fuzzy geographical archaicisms is not necessarily relevant to any argument about origins as such? But I agree with Aigest (if I understand) that if there are sources out there who think that behind the fuzziness a theory can be developed, well then those sources can be mentioned. Megistias, why do you think it is important to mention the word Illyria beings used for Serbians etc? That seems to be the bit I don't get yet. Sorry guys for being slow. Hopefully my not being familiar with the argument can be a positive eventually! :) --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:36, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Because the source where it's taken from (Mardugearu and Gordon) uses it as an argument. That's all that matters. Athenean (talk) 19:20, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

What we are getting boged down with is the issue of "Illyrian descendence " of Albanians and other (eg all former Yugoslavs). The problem, as Megistias identifies, is that the ethnicity and culture were always in flux. The Illyrians were but one stage in a constant metamorhposis of western Balkan peoples, which emerge in the Iron Age and end, strictly speaking, with the Roman 'conquest'. The tribal organizations, chieftainship, burial methods, and settlement pattern which charracterised these people, (which was far frm unifrom, anyway), changed quite clearly during Roman times. After this, Illyricum's leading strata aspired a Roman culture and a Latin lingua franca. Yes, obviously Romanization was not universal, but even the non-Romanized provincials were settled around and dependent upon the Roman cities. From the 4th century, there is again a change. The Antiquity model of society and centralized Roman rule declines and communities develop rather more autonomously around the rule of local potentate, who, by the mid 5th century, were the local Bishops. By the mid 6th century, this again changes significantly, as many cities seem to just disappear. Until the 10th century, the is almost a black hole in much of the Balkans. Clearly, this was a time when there was a Slavonization in many areas. But even this was not a concrete, entirely uniform and coherent process, but reflected the orientation of the Balkans to a more middle Danubian culture, ie the plcae where Avars ruled from. The Albanians emerged in 11th century politically. This does not mean that they came from somewhere. Biologically speaking, they were always there. Even if we accept that Albanian is some offshoot of Ilyrian (which is hard to prove because we know very little about Ilyrian), this does not equate with a continuous Illyrian-Albanian ethnicity. There is clearly too much discontinuity and change to even begin to seriously entertain the idea Hxseek (talk) 12:46, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

That all seems correct to me Hxseek, the names were in flux, but if there are arguments in reliable sources that suggest ways of looking through the flux, I guess they need to be mentioned unless they are really clearly fringe theories? Of course that does not mean that they need to be strongly emphasized.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I think a sensible way to look at it would be to begin with a mention of what might be termed 'generalist'/ introductory sources, then delve into more highly specialized stuff. Like the Romanians article, it would benefit from splitting the arrticle into literary, archaeological and linguistic evidence. The curent state of the article can integrate the sections which focus on Dacian, Illyrian, anti-Illryian, etc into one languge chapter. Hxseek (talk) 05:09, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

This discussion does feel like one that might be fixed by a re-structuring.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:28, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Maybe a restructuring is necessary, but then is the risk of WP:SYNTH. Anyway this article is about the origin. Of course Albanians are not Illyrians, just like Romanians are not Dacians or Italians are not Romans and so on. The question here is from which population the today Albanians derive from. All agree that Albanians derive from old populations of Balkan (Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians or Dacians), but since Greek is out of question they don't agree if they derive from Illlyrians, Thracians or Dacians hence the theories represented in this article. Explaining that the Albanians are not Illyrians, or Albanians are not Thracians etc is unnecessary. I think we all agree that this affirmation is absurd. I want to point also to another issue in this article, which can be improved. Actually there are two theories of Illyrians descendance. On is that some Illyrian tribes (most notably Albani) withdrew in the mountains in what is today part of Albania and Kosovo area up to Naissus, limiting contacts with the population in the fields and cities which were under Roman and then Byzantium rule. Restricted in mountains area they delt mosty with herding and kept intact their language, but under heavy influence from Latin especially in terms of technology, government and city affairs. The other one (less supported )is that of Jirecek, that half Romanized Illyrians under the pressure of Slavs, spilled through the areas between Dalmatia and Danube unnoticed to North Albania. Again they were herding tribes and restricted themselves into mountains. The restriction on the mountains and the loss of many original words in favor of latin terms would explain the loss of maritime terms, greek loanwords etc. These two theories actually are not represented in a summary form (see Bessoi theory for eg) but only with arguments pro and counter, so the reader would just imagine what the theory wants to say. This form is somewhat confusing, very schematic for my taste. Aigest (talk) 12:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

To get back on topic, Late antiquity usage of the ethnonym. That small section is sourced and relevant. Aigest's opinion is that it is irrelevant but the source disagrees, and so do the many logical points made. Lets stay on topic. The many theories are presented and they should be presented with detail, as they are. Megistias (talk) 13:18, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I remain with my opinion that late antiquity usage of the ethnonym is not an argument pro or against. Anyway since the source you brought is not visible (only snippet view) can you give the full paragraph of that sentence. Is he giving his personal opinion or is he saying what others say. Aigest (talk) 13:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I do not doubt that you remain with it, and also that you know for a fact that Illyrians was used by the Byzantines as an exonym for Slavs in a certain era, and the fact that such archaisms were common.Megistias (talk) 13:58, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Aigest and Megistias, whether you think the late antiquity usage can be used as an argument is not so much the point as whether it can be sourced that someone thinks it can. Is there an RS source which makes the link or not?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:16, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

He uses this, The wars of the Balkan Peninsula, Megistias (talk) 16:34, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

There is no doubt that this was an archaism and that the term was used here and there. But Aigest's opinion seems to be that it doesn't matter that the term was thus used, that its distanced from being an argument against Illyrian origin. But it remains relevant as the last and external element of the Illyrians, that once existed but by that time did not, other in the habit of archaisms of the Byzantines.Megistias (talk) 16:36, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Megistias, I am not following the answer. Have you got a source saying that the term Illyrian was used to mean Albanian?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

No, its not that. The term Illyrian was not used for actual Illyrians anymore, the people became extinct, and the term was used to refer to other ethnic groups, non- Illyrians, by Byzantines, (and before that it was used in a provincial identity manner).Megistias (talk) 17:52, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

This is what I think about Megistias' work on trying to represent that Illyrians have no connections with the Albanians. --sulmues (talk) 19:49, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

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