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• Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
• New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

• Assume good faith
• Be polite and avoid personal attacks
• Be welcoming to newcomers
• Seek dispute resolution if needed

• Neutral point of view
• No original research
• Verifiability

To view an explanation to the answer, click the link to the right of the question.

• 21 November 2009 (archived)
• 28 November 2009 (archived)
• 31 December 2009 (archived)
• 6 January 2009 (archived)

and at Neutral point of view noticeboard on

• 7 December 2009 (active as of December 15, 2009)

and at Requested moves on

• 11 December 2009 (failed)
• 23 December 2009 (failed)
• 17 February, 2010 (failed)

To-do list for Climatic Research Unit email controversy: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2010-12-23

I don't wish to reopen what was clearly a long and heated discussion. However, I see that non-English versions of this page typically go by the name of climategate (or foreign language variations thereof). At the very least there should be consistency.

Apologies if this point has already been raised. --Junder1234 (talk) 21:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

See FAQ #1. Hipocrite (talk) 21:10, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I read it ; it doesn't address my point. --Junder1234 (talk) 21:18, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Different language editions of Misplaced Pages have their own content policies (within the primacy of the neutral point of view) and are not consistent with one another or with English Misplaced Pages. --TS 22:07, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

A neutral point of view can hardly be said to have primacy if a "loaded term" is used in a page written in one language and not in an another. --Junder1234 (talk) 22:17, 2 March 2010 (UTC).

In other languages, the "-gate" suffix may well have considerably less of its American-English meaning. Interpretation of the NPOV may also have developed in different directions on other wikis. Possibly this may be something for discussion at Meta. --TS 22:28, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Junder1234 and I also raised the same point before. I feel you are dodging the question by pointing to NPOV. Is it reasonable to believe that the English speaking Misplaced Pages is superior to all other language versions? In this case it would appear more likely that the English language version is out of sync. I frequently see shortened articles translated from the English language version. This means the content is typically shorter and I end up switching to English for the details. In this case it's the other way around. I also do not know of ANY part of the world that is unfamiliar with the Watergate scandal.91.153.115.15 (talk) 22:45, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

You're confusing two uses of NPOV. My first mention of NPOV is just a historical reference to the fact that Jimbo Wales stipulates that NPOV is "non-negotiable". Junder then referred to NPOV within the context of this article's name (and NPOV has indeed figured in discussions of the article name, as Junder clearly understands when he refers to a "loaded term").

I'm not really clear whether Junder has a serious question. Yes, of course articles about any given subject in different language Wikipedias tend to have different text, predominantly prepared by different editors, and they have different names. Are we supposed to do something about that? If so, what? --TS 23:12, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Well I for one have the luxury of being multilingual so I occasionally read 5 or 6 different language versions of the same articles. If I find a reliable piece of information in one I try to translate it. Sometimes the translations are not perfect but it usually doesn't take long for someone else to correct my small mistakes. A certain amount of consistency is a good thing. At least the outlines should be similar. At some point the French language version of this article was preferable. Many others are shorter but well balanced. This also potentially clears up conflicting editing, done with almost religious dedication, by small groups of editors in one language version.91.153.115.15 (talk) 07:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Junder, I was one editor who previously pointed this out.

The short answer as to why we don't call the article "Climategate" here is, there is a substantial group of editors active here who are absolutely opposed to that name. Because... well, because WP:I DON'T LIKE IT. In my view, of course. Best regards, Pete Tillman (talk) 22:26, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Accusing people of engaging in disruption simply because they disagree with you is unacceptable Pete. Please retract your comment and try to assume good faith. Guettarda (talk) 00:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Or, perhaps they see WP:WTA as a sound and reasonable guideline, not to be tossed aside lightly for the pundit pejorative of the day. Tarc (talk) 00:13, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

We've been through this before. Without objection, it has been stated and presumptively accepted that the WP:WTA clearly states that for article titles, words which should usually be avoided may be part of the title if this is the most common name for the subject of the article. The term Climategate, as a title, satisfies the wiki policy of using the common term, and does not violate NPOV since it is descriptive only, albeit pedestrian, and does not add an imputation of scandal not previously recognized. I solicit recognition of that. Best regards, Oiler99 (talk) 04:33, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The problem with the title "Climategate" is that it is not generally accepted. It is similar to "homicide bomber", a term that indicates a certain point of view. People who call it "Climategate" generally believe that climate change is a hoax. The Four Deuces (talk) 04:43, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Au contraire, Climategate is generally used around the world by newspapers, magazines, and other wikipedias. The term refers merely to the scandal surrounding the revelations of inappropriate activity by those who wish to blame human activities for global climate. Climate change of course is not a hoax. The anthropogenic cause is however unproven, and more implausible with each passing day, whence the scandal. Homicide bomber is by the way a tautology, not used by thinking people outside of television studios. Suicide bomber is additive, and descriptive. Best regards, Oiler99 (talk) 06:21, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Proof is for whisky, "climategate" is a partisan label deployed by those claiming that AGW is a "hoax" or "conspiracy" and treated more cautiously or avoided by many serious sources. . . dave souza, talk 07:11, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Do you seriously believe that all those who use the term Climategate are convinced that AGW is a hoax or a conspiracy, rather than a simple misinterpretation of the evidence? Oiler99 (talk) 09:13, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

While I will accept that people who use the term "climategate" believe that climate change science misinterprets the evidence and that they do not deny climate change but the anthropogenic cause, the term "climategate" is still not neutral. The Four Deuces (talk) 13:45, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

As it has been pointed out numeous times, in policies WP:NAME and WP:NPOV, proper noun article titles should follow common usage in RS, even if that common usage is non-neutral. Even in the guideline WP:WTA (which, as a guideline, takes a subordinate position to the aforementioned policies) naming conventions allow for a title involving a -gate suffix formulation in historical cases. How many months must pass with its usage as a common title for this controversy in order to satisfy those who would use this guideline to trump policy? Moogwrench (talk) 16:08, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

If the label is entirely partisan, why do the media in the UK and US use it so extensively? Again, we are not talking about the first few days of the story. They have latched onto and continue to use this label after months of controversy. The term "Climategate", as it is employed by the media, centers around a pattern of conduct of the UEA scientists and the public's reaction, be it positive, neutral, or negative. One can believe that UEA scientists were sloppy, unprofessional, or committed some kind of violation of FOIA (or even admit others with reasonable minds believe this) without denying that climate change is real or that it has a significant anthropogenic component. So I find the idea that Climategate is a term only employed by "climate deniers" or "climate skeptics" is belied by its common usage and acceptance as an umbrella term for this particular controversy (unlike other -gate suffix inventions for other controversies, which never were extensively used by RSs and were the exclusive domain of a specific party to their respective controversies). One can believe that the scientists acted inappropriately while still accepting the overall science behind AGW. Moogwrench (talk) 15:54, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

At what point does this constant bleating about how the article should be called "Climategate" start to produce blocks or topic bans for tendentious disruption? Must we have the same argument over and over again? "Climategate" will never, ever be an appropriate title. Those reliable sources that make use of the word almost always use quotation marks to indicate it is not "their word", and also only use it for convenience. But you will not find a single reliable source to corroborate the legitimate use of the word to describe the theft and illegal dissemination of data from the CRU. The word is non-neutral, best avoided and non-descriptive. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:28, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Referring to good faith, policy-based arguments as disruptive bleating is not exactly convincing. I appreciate your opinion that it will, in your words, "never, ever be an appropriate title," but a plain language reading of the common proper noun naming conventions of both WP:NPOV and WP:NAME seem to contradict your certainty. Cordially, Moogwrench (talk) 20:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Is there an good argument being presented here for why the Misplaced Pages:WTA#Controversy and scandal guideline should be set aside for this particular case? "Everyone else calls it that" is not one that I would call "good", however. Tarc (talk) 20:12, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

"Everyone (or, at least all reliable sources) call(s) it that is" exactly what WP:NAME suggests as a reason to call it that, even if the name contains words to WP:AVOID. Now, we're not there yet, but all media do call it "Climategate"; so far, the only reliable sources using a different name are UEA and the police. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:35, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

As has been noted repeatedly, in the eleventy-billion threads we've had about this, the notion that "all media do call it 'Climategate'" is a misrepresentation of the facts. Virtually all of the mainstream media refer to the term in quoted form, distancing themselves from it and indicating at the very least that is is a neologism. The media echo chamber has been used extensively by the skeptical crowd to promote the term's use, but that doesn't change the salient facts that the term is non-descriptive and non-neutral, making it inappropriate as a Misplaced Pages article title. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:18, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Common proper noun names are preferable to descriptive ones made up by Wikipedians, per WP:COMMONNAME, so I don't know why you would suggest that a non-descriptive title is inappropriate for a Misplaced Pages article. I find it hard to accept your assertion that news outlets are "distancing" themselves from a term by frequently using it their articles and reports, quotes or no quotes.

Also, consensus is important, even if it does take "eleventy-billion threads" to hash it all out in the end. It sure does beat edit-warring on the article page, don't you think? Thankfully, participation in Misplaced Pages is voluntary; if one is tired of seeing alternative viewpoints, might I suggest a wikibreak? Moogwrench (talk) 05:42, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

"Climategate" is non-neutral and ambiguous. Policies like WP:NPOV stomp all over guidelines like WP:COMMONNAME, so we can put that argument to bed. Also, please don't make vague, nebulous accusations of edit warring. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:25, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

1. I don't know many people who would confuse the subject of "Climategate", so I can't see how it is anymore "ambiguous" than the current title.

2. WP:COMMONNAME is a policy, not a guideline, as you erroneously state (it is a link to the WP:Article_titles#Common_names). As a side note, I have also documented how Misplaced Pages:NPOV#Article_titles permits the use of common, non-neutral names as "legitimate article titles," so I don't see how WP:NPOV "stomps all over" that argument. It actually supports it.

3. Celebrating discussion over revert wars is not accusing anyone of edit-warring. However, using phrases like "constant bleating" and "tendentious disruption" to refer to the talk contributions of other editors does tend to deprecate that process, don't you think?

Moogwrench (talk) 16:12, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

And my "pros"? 1) the most used name in most connections, by my own experience 2) it somehow better describes all the hassle after the publishing of the hacked files. So, to summarize I'm against the name-change. --J. Sketter (talk) 15:19, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

J. Sketter, just to engage you on your points that you made, take a look at what Misplaced Pages:Article_titles#Deciding_an_article_title suggests are the characteristics of an ideal (or optimal, to use your word) name:

1. Recognizable – Using names and terms most commonly used in reliable sources, and so most likely to be recognized, for the topic of the article.

2. Easy to find – Using names and terms that readers are most likely to look for in order to find the article (and to which editors will most naturally link from other articles).

3. Precise – Using names and terms that are precise, but only as precise as is necessary to identify the topic of the article unambiguously.

4. Concise – Using names and terms that are brief and to the point. (Even when disambiguation is necessary, keep that part brief.)

5. Consistent – Using names and terms that follow the same pattern as those of other similar articles.

1) Per item 4 of the article title criteria, article titles should be "concise," i.e. "a convenient and short name" in your words. "Climategate" is far more concise than the longer "Climatic Research Unit hacking incident"

2) As far as neutrality goes, WP:NPOV and WP:Article titles both allow for seemingly non-neutral titles when it is the common name for that thing in RSs. Also, "Climategate" really isn't about AGW per se, it is about the scientific process and people's reaction to it. People can believe that the underlying science is good, yet find the behavior of the UEA unacceptable or not... the reaction is the notable part.

3) Per item 5 of the article title criteria, article titles ought to be "consistent," and one could argue this applies cross-wiki, if possible.

4) As to why people are promoting it: It is Recognizable, Easy to find, and Precise enough to identify its topic. It seems to fulfill all the aspects of an ideal title. The current title, in the view of the proponents of the alternative title, seems less than optimal is many of those respects. Moogwrench (talk) 16:34, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

You were right about WP:COMMONNAME being policy, my bad. But WP:NPOV still trumps it as being second only to WP:BLP in the policy hierarchy. "Climategate" fits in with only a few of the criteria you list above. For example, it is not at all precise. It requires an understanding of the "-gate" suffix, which is largely a US-centric phenomenon. It is not consistent, in that it doesn't follow patterns found in other articles (a handful, at best) - and the cross-wiki issue is irrelevant because other versions have their own rules. But basically, it is the lack of neutrality that is the problem here. The term unforgivably adds a layer of "scandal" to what is essentially an article about data theft and its consequences by associating it with an event that wound up forcing a US president out of office. There is no reasonable comparison that can be made here. And I repeat: Bringing it up over and over again is textbook tendentiousness. If only there was a script that could automatically topic ban anyone who suggested it again. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:51, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

You don't really think that is a good idea, do you? I mean, silencing people who disagree with you automatically? Moogwrench (talk) 01:04, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

The -gate thing is obviously from The Watergate scandal. Are you seriously suggesting that only Americans and people in the UK now about one of the most important political scandals of the 20th century? If you say Watergate people think Nixon scandal. If you say Climategate people think Climate change/science scandal.130.232.214.10 (talk) 18:28, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

For the umpteenth time too, WP does have a page called Climategate - it's a redirect. That's our way of saying, 'some people call it this, but not us'. That kills the 'Easy to find' argument. Most of the other arguments seem to be either 'It's POV, but I like that POV' or 'It's POV, but that doesn't matter because of sub-clause X'. --Nigelj (talk) 18:16, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Not true, actually. WP does not have a Climategate page, it has a term redirect to Email Hacking Incident page, the latter being a subset of the Climategate, encompassing perhaps 10% of the controversy. Quite misleading. Hurricane, on the other hand, generates a redirect to Tropical Cyclone, of which hurricane is a subset. Quite different. Much more appropriate would be a link on the Climategate page to the email hacking / liberation incident. Oiler99 (talk) 05:48, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Until/unless you can make your case over at WT:NPOV as to why such an article name is permitted, this is simply not going to happen, coming from a discussion in a single article's talk space. Policy can change, sure, and if you think you have case then go make it there. Tarc (talk) 14:03, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

"Climatic Research Unit hacking incident" is as inappropriate as "Climategate". To date, there is no evidence that any hacking took place. Unless someone can present evidence that hacking did take place (not just allegations), the current title is inappropriate. If "climategate" can't be used because no scandal has been confirmed (only alleged), then "hacking" can't be used for the same reason.--chadhoward (talk) 11:13, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

This argument is addressed in FAQ Q5. All reliable sources say it was an unauthorized data breach; a hacking. CRU did not deliberately leak the data, nor is there any evidence to support accidental release. --TS 00:34, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Neither your comment nor FAQ Q5 addresses my comment. It may be true that many or even all reliable sources say the emails were hacked. My point stands: no reliable source has detailed any evidence for the claim that the CRU emails were obtained via hacking. Do you agree? If not, please provide a source that details evidence for the claim of hacking. --chadhoward (talk) 00:07, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

No original research. We're not Sherlock Holmes, you know. --TS 01:24, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

No original research not relevant. All that is required is a published source detailing evidence of hacking. Allegations of hacking are insufficient as basis for article title, just as allegations of scandal are insufficient to warrant the use of Climategate in article title. Possible improvements to article: remove "hacking incident" from title, as no evidence yet exists that would suggest a "hacking incident" has occurred; mention the sources who have alleged that hacking occurred (CRU, etc.) and that no evidence of hacking has yet been detailed in any published source.--chadhoward (talk) 01:45, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I suggest that you take your quarrels with Misplaced Pages policy to the relevant policy pages. We go with verifiable information, and it is verifiable that the Norfolk Police, the Metropolitan Police, and the University are treating this as hacking. No reliable source is saying it's anything other than hacking. --TS 01:49, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I have no quarrel with Misplaced Pages policy. No original research is not relevant because I am not asking you to "publish original research or original thought... unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas". I am asking you to cite a published source that details evidence of the alleged hacking incident at the CRU or consider working with me and others to change the article title. It is verifiable that the university has claimed that a hacking took place; it is verifiable that the Norfolk Police and the Metropolitan Police are conducting investigations into the alleged hacking; it is NOT verifiable that any hacking has taken place. Sticking to what is verifiable suggests avoiding the words "hacking incident" in the title. Furthermore, it is a factual contribution to the article to mention that although an investigation has been ongoing, no evidence of a hacking has yet been published. --chadhoward (talk) 02:09, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Greetings! I have little experience in regards to this, just moseyed here from another page I check every now and again. If I'm not mistaken, then what is being asked of you so as to advance this discussion is a source or multiple sources that say there is no proof of a hacking. Armed with those, people can bring this discussion better to bear. I.E. Verifiability, not truth, is what would seem to be necessary. Original research is important to avoid not only in regards with what to add, but with what to remove. If you know that happiness is the result of reactions in the brain, yet reliable sources in the page for happiness say that's not so, it is not enough to simply say they never provided proof that it's not neurological reactions. Instead, finding reliable sources that back up your assertions should help to further the discussion. 72.192.46.9 (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Greetings! I believe TS referenced No original research because he thought my original request was for Misplaced Pages authors to present their own evidence of hacking. In fact, I was requesting a published source detailing evidence of a hacking to substantiate the current title. It is problematic that the current title refers to a hacking incident if there is no published evidence that such an event occurred. Your suggestion that I ought to provide a source detailing evidence that hacking did not take place is asking too much. It is impossible to prove the non-existence of something (think Russell's teapot), and thus impossible to find a source that presents evidence of non-existence. A cornucopia of articles mentioning the absence of evidence is still not evidence of absence. If your proposed standard were required, any outlandish claim of the existence of something that has been so far unobserved would be impossible to remove once added. On the other hand, a statement that something does not exist (evidence, for example) is easily debunked with a single source detailing the supposedly missing evidence. --chadhoward (talk) 13:33, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I invite that you may be responding to something I did not assert. You don't have to prove the hacking didn't take place, not at all. You simply need to find reliable sources that say what you are trying to convince others of. If there are reliable sources stating the incident was a hacking, and other reliable sources say that it was never proven to be a hacking (they don't need to prove that there wasn't one) then your fellow editors can take these sources into consideration. To say 'this has been said but that alone hasn't convinced me it is true' can be a compelling argument of course, but the concern is verifiability, not truth. 72.192.46.9 (talk) 16:24, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Can someone explain why this ongoing discussion was archived, with readers pointed to a link to FAQ 5? FAQ 5 does not apply to my argument detailed above. I do not dispute that many or even all reliable sources allege a hacking took place. I do dispute the notion that mere allegations warrant the use of the phrase "hacking incident" in the title of this article. It is extremely odd to refer to an incident/event/occurrence if there is no evidence that said incident/event/occurrence actually took place. This problem, as far as I know, has not yet been addressed in a comment or in the FAQ. --chadhoward (talk) 15:06, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Reliable sources say "hacking" (or some variation), regardless of what may actually be true. In the extremely unlikely event that it turns out not to be a hacking incident, I'm sure this article will be renamed. Until that point, it reflects what reliable sources say. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:32, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Good, we're moving toward consensus. I agree that if it turns out that there was no hacking of the CRU's servers, the article should be renamed. My first thought is that, in the absence of confirmatory evidence, we need to resolve how long to wait before deciding that it has "turned out" that no hacking has taken place. The problem with this approach is that the non-existence of a hacking incident cannot ever be proved because it is impossible to prove a negative. Waiting for what can never be produced is counterproductive. So, instead of waiting, perhaps we can work toward defining reasonable deductions under which everyone can agree that it has "turned out" that no hacking has taken place. As a first attempt: because allegations are not evidence and no evidence has been detailed to suggest that a hacking occurred, there is no reason at the present date to believe that a hacking event took place. We can build consensus around the unlikelihood of a hacking for the same reason we can build consensus around the unliklihood of the existence of unicorns -- lack of evidence. I welcome discussion of other reasonable deductions.

Also, I'm not a sockpuppet or the user named Scibaby. It feels really crappy to put work into improving an article and then get accused of being deceitful. --chadhoward (talk) 18:18, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I dunno anything about the sockpuppet allegation, other than the fact I am now aware of it. With respect to resolving "how long to wait", I would have to say that the answer to that question is indefinitely. Unless a preponderance of reliable sources say it wasn't hacking, the word will obviously remain in the title. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:31, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

As I specified in my comment, it is unproductive to specify "how long to wait". Waiting for a preponderance of reliable sources to "say" a particular thing is useless for the same reason. Please address the actual issues detailed above in future comments. --chadhoward (talk) 18:58, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Until such a time as the police say "It was a leak not a hack" then the narrative will remain as is. That`s just the way it is sorry mark nutley (talk) 19:32, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Let's try a thought experiment. There is some non-zero probability that, at some point in the future, the police will cancel their investigation or decline to release their findings publicly or otherwise abdicate their responsibility to settle our little Misplaced Pages dispute. In that instance, we will be faced with the same question we are faced with now: does the balance of evidence justify including the words "hacking incident" in the article title? Some may suggest that we wait a bit longer before making a decision, because perhaps someone with inside information will tell all within a year. However probable or appealing the suggestion, I submit that if we follow basic evidentiary requirements we will be able to answer the question at that hypothetical moment and it would be inappropriate to wait. Any expected future event that might settle the score should not prevent us from making an evidence-based decision in the present. Take a moment to think about the disarray the average Misplaced Pages article would suffer if saying, "let's not worry about the balance of published evidence now -- I think Event X will produce a more obvious verdict sometime in the future" carried the day on talk pages.

So let's look at the evidence. We know that the CRU's private emails became public. We know that the CRU alleged hacking. Both are important parts of the story. Neither is evidence that hacking took place. Neither can support the current title. The current title simply has no basis in fact. Does anyone dispute this? --Chadhoward (talk) 00:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I dispute it. Hundreds of reliable sources saying "hacking", and until hundreds of reliable sources say otherwise the matter isn't open for debate. I support vigorous closing/archiving of this thread as this has been debated/discussed/deliberated ad nauseam already. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:19, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Heyitspeter, slow down on the archiving. It's been just a little over 30 hours since I introduced a suggestion to improve this article's title. The suggestion has not yet been dealt with by the FAQ or by any other commenter. I am not actually arguing for the introduction of the title "Climategate", merely pointing out that the current title is wanting for evidence. Why not let a few more people read through the argument during the week? --Chadhoward (talk) 00:31, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Hey Chad Howard. (I didn't actually close your section of the discussion, Scjessey included it in the collapse with his 'second.') I fully agree with you on several counts. FAQ#5 does not satisfactorily address the concerns raised here. See a brief discussion of this point at my talk. I also believe the current title violates WP:OR and have voted for alternate titles in the past. However I do not think 'Climategate' is that title, mainly because it didn't garner even a strong minority of the votes in the most recent move request. I'm sorry you got here after that closed, and I understand how frustrating it is to be told "this has been discussed to death" where you had no part in the discussion. However I think you'll agree that given the recency of the request and the weak support it received (other options received many votes), 'Climategate' is not worth pursuing at this juncture. That's why I support this collapse. However, if you have ideas for another title I'm sure many of us would be happy to hear it.--Heyitspeter (talk) 04:09, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Scepticism, according to Diderot, is "the first step on the road to philosophy". With due respect to the Express's scientific rigour, is it appropriate, do you think, to dignify such claptrap as climate change scepticism? Or dare I use the D-word? I'm talking about D for denier, as in one who denies (to those looking for fashionable hosiery who have been directed here by typing "denier" into a search engine: you are in the wrong place).

We have been discussing such terminology, and some of my colleagues have suggested that Guardian style might be amended to stop referring to "climate change deniers" in favour of, perhaps, "climate sceptics".

David Marsh Mind your language - Guardian