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Radiation hormesis? Ball lightning?

"There are well-known cases of currently accepted scientific theories or fields that were originally considered pseudoscientific, for example, continental drift, cosmology, ball lightning, and radiation hormesis".

What is radiation hormesis doing in this list?! It is not a currently accepted scientific theory. Quite the contrary. Historically, beneficial effect of low doses of radioactivity has been a "accepted" theory for several decades since discovery of radioactivity (see radiation quack medicines, tanks for adding minuscule amounts of radon into drinking water, radium toothpaste, and such); it has been ruled out by improved understanding of the biochemical effects of radiation, as well as by empirical studies and indirectly by improved understanding of evolution - now it is understood that a wholly beneficial response mechanism, such as the one suggested by 'hormesis' proponents, would not switch off in absence of higher-than-background doses of radiation. Hormesis is no less at odds with our understanding of evolution than Intelligent Design.

I think radiation hormesis should be removed from this list of "accepted" theories. Surely, it is not "accepted" theory in same way as continental drift or cosmology are. Ball lighting also should be removed because "ball lighting" is not a theory; the idea that ball lighting is a (for example) form of electric discharge, would be a theory, as would be theory that ball lighting is a hallucinatory effect caused by combination of electromagnetic pulse, bright flash, loud sound, etc. Actually i'm going to go ahead and remove both ball lightning and hormesis on the list, ball lightning on the grounds that it is not a theory, and hormesis on the ground that saying that hormesis is as accepted as continental drift is a very non-neutral point of view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.56.104.90 (talk • contribs) 17:29, September 19, 2009

These statements are sourced. Unless the source is unreliable (per our definition), inaccurately cited, outdated or misrepresented, the information should remain. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 02:47, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

A statement that 'hormesis' is accepted as scientific theory now any more than it was in the past, is not sourced; it is an inappropriate representation at best. "Ball lightning" itself is not a 'scientific theory' at all; explanation of ball lightning may be. This whole list simply invites cranks to put their favorite theories in as non-pseudoscience.

You mean except for the four references that follow -esis? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 11:34, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I added that as an example of a practice that was once labelled pseudoscience but is now considered a valid hypothesis. To accomodate this, I added the phrase "accepted scientific theories or hypotheses" in the section. Unfortunately, the language has changed since.

Hormesis is not an accepted effect, but it is a valid accepted hypothesis which is supported by some, but not all, of the data. This is what is supported by the sources.Likebox (talk) 01:36, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

see "Over-reliance on confirmation rather than refutation". Pretty much every single example of pseudoscience is 'supported by some, but not all, of the data'. Lyseknovism, Lamarkism, n-rays, etc. The whole point of science is that it takes only one single well verified contradicting data point to disprove a hypothesis or theory. There been enough for hormesis; even the very data used by proponents, when controlled for age and smoking, does in fact refute hormesis hypothesis - and unless they can make sound rebuttal, the case's closed as far as science is concerned. 78.56.104.90 (talk) 09:49, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Lysenkoism (in the sense of anti-mendelianism) was not supported by data, it was supported by Marxist dialectic. Neither were N-rays supported by reproducible data, the careful experiments all found no N-rays. On the other hand, radiation hormesis has been demonstrated in reliable animal studies, and has the support of French nuclear bodies. It might not be right, but the case is open. If you believe that the debate is closed, you have information that many leading nuclear bodies don't have, because they are funding experiments on artificially low radiation which will close the question once and for all. Please read the article on radiation hormesis for the details of the debate.

Although that's the current state of ignorance as far as very low doses of radiation is concerned, many scientists used to make unwarranted extrapolations from high-dose data to conclude that hormesis is pseudoscience. That type of baloney is harder today, because you get called on it. In particular: you are wrong about the smoking controls, this subject was debated ad nauseum on the radiation hormesis page.Likebox (talk) 05:08, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

See hormesis page. Taiwan study had older controls, for example; a lot of studies have been discredited. Furthermore, if we were to talk of unwarranted extrapolation, the very concept of dose in sievert relies on assumption that effects are linear. Nonlinear response to dose in sieverts is a total nonsense, an oxymoron; if the effects are not linear there is no reason whatsoever for whole body dose of gamma rays to be equivalent to localized lung dose of alpha particles, times standard scaling factor. Especially considering that on cellular level there is no such thing as low dose of alpha radiation (1 alpha track through cell nucleus is no small dose) but there is such thing as moderately low dose of gamma radiation (1 Compton Scattering electron through nucleus). Nevermind hormesis though. Answer, HOW is "ball lighting" a scientific hypothesis?! A particular explanation of ball lightning may be a hypothesis but 'ball ligtning' is a phenomena! Explanation that it is physical, objective phenomena, or explanation that it is a neurological phenomena caused by effect of electromagnetic pulse on brain, or that it is psychological (people lying), that's hypothesis, but 'alleged phenomena' itself is not a hypothesis. This is merely a list for fringe pseudoscientists to put their beliefs on. Scientists so pseudo that they don't even have a clue what 'hypothesis' means and think that 'ball lightning' is a hypothesis. I think it's best to leave both hormesis and ball lightning here then, so that ball lightning sufficiently discredits this whole list and hormesis along with it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.60.36.230 (talk) 01:21, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Taiwan study is total bunk--- it's no evidence for or against hormesis because its data was garbage. But there are other studies which are careful which support a small hormesis effect. All that I am saying is that the issue is wide open.

As far as "dose in Seiverts is linear by definition", nobody is disputing that radiation effects like molecular cleaving or DNA damage is linear. What people are disputing is that this translates to cancer in a linear fasion. There is no reason to believe this a-priori, since cancer is now known to be a complicated process governed by apoptosis checkpoints and self-correction.Likebox (talk) 14:24, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

There was a debate earlier about several subjects which I still think make better examples:

1. Hypnosis was rejected, after consensus was that modern hypnosis is too different from its pseudoscience ancestor, mesmerism.
2. acupuncture as an analgesic, which is discussed fairly now under the broader label of traditional chinese medicine, so no complaints.
3. meteorites which were pseudoscience until about 1800.
4. epigenetics or non-mendelian inheritance, which was rejected as pseudoscience until about a decade ago.Likebox (talk) 01:45, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, I don't think cosmology is a good example at all, even though Hawking said so. It's just a bit of hyperbole on his part.Likebox (talk) 01:47, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

List of pseudo-sciences

The article doesn't has a list of pseudo-sciences.Agre22 (talk) 16:06, 28 October 2009 (UTC)agre22

I think that's because for any pseudoscience there are pseudoscientists whom move it from list of pseudosciences to list of things that were formerly considered pseudosciences but are now taken as valid scientific hypothesis. Furthermore, most of pseudosciences are profitable. Only something really unpopular AND unprofitable ends up on list of pseudosciences. 78.60.36.230 (talk) 01:24, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Interesting discussion developing

This may require comments from interested parties:

• Is 'pseudoscience' the best word to use? Science is surely the key.

Brangifer (talk) 19:40, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Potential addition

I wanted to include some info from http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pseudo-science/#UniDiv: "almost complete disagreement on the general criteria judgments should be based upon."

I wanted at first to include that source in the following paragraph: There is disagreement among philosophers of science and among commentators in the scientific community about whether there is a reliable objective way to distinguish "pseudoscience" from non-mainstream "science" -- but, as the Stanford source seem not to discuss the "lack of unanimity about the existence of ways of distinguishment" per se, it cannot be used to source the current sentence.

However, I wanted to know if you people felt some need to introduce the idea of that perceived lack of unanimity between philosophers of science on the ways to distinguish science from pseudoscience in the introduction rather than in the "Boundaries between science and pseudoscience" section only. Else, the RS could still be used, for instance, to source the first sentence of the latter section.

Hoping this might well be of any use. Twipley (talk) 23:42, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Denialism

Links and text about the climategate scandal article have been added and deleted. That controversy is more about professional ethics vs. smear campaigns than about science vs. pseudoscience. However, as a current notable and controversial subject, the scandal and climate change in general deserves a mention for clarification in the context of science vs. pseudoscience, with, of course, a neutral point of view. Obankston (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:51, 1 February 2010 (UTC).

No, as it isn't pseudoscience and isn't known as such. Verbal chat 22:54, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that the Climatic Research Unit hacking incident merits any attention on this widely-scoped article. However, there is no direct discussion of the relationship between pseudoscience and the broad topic of denialism (in which some would include the subject of climate change denial). There's a number of sources from which to draw... — Scientizzle 23:10, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Using two articles from the Google scholar link given above, I came up with a proposed statement connecting denialism and psuedoscience. I am not sure where the statement should be placed.

"Denialism of issues often uses pseudoscience to back up their claims. For media editors, reporting both the scientific side and the denier's side in an attempt to give balanced coverage takes the risk of publishing psuedoscientific nonsense. For medical issues, this could influence people in a way that risks their health. For climate change, the effects are less personal and more long-term, but the effects also put individuals and communities at risk. For politicians with an agenda of denial, use of psuedoscience can be used to justify government policies that have a detrimental effect."

Obankston (talk) 17:59, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I think this is a good start...I'll mull over the wording some and see if I can suggest some concrete changes. I think a level two header between the "Identifying pseudoscience" and "Demographics" headers could be created on "The usage of pseudoscience" (or something of that vein) Under such a header one could expand broadly upon who stands to gain and lose from pseudoscientific (or antiscientific) claims; the denialism-related content would fit well there. Thoughts? — Scientizzle 18:41, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Two additional possible locations for the connection between pseudoscience and denialism: (1) In the section "Identifying pseudoscience". Promoting things (for fame or money) and denialism (often the other side of the coin when promoting something else) is not universally associated with pseudoscience, but neither are some of the other characteristics in the section "Identifying pseudoscience". (2) The denialism article, since pseudoscience is an important tool in the toolbox of denialism. BTW, the denialism article needs more work than the pseudoscience article - the lead needs to be boiled down to a short paragraph, and the rest of the lead made into sections.

Pseudoscience, like legitimate science, can be used as a tool in the toolbox of methods used to promote and/or discredit anything. The process works like this: If legitimate science leads unambiguously or incontrovertibly to a single policy or position, and an individual or group has the goal of being against that policy or position, then denialism of that policy or position would require pseudoscience to "scientifically" justify or validate that policy or position. If legitimate science does not lead unambiguously to a single policy or position, then this is probably an ordinary controversy, and not denialism. The use of psuedoscience would not be required to justify or validate, but it might be used anyway. Obankston (talk) 16:58, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Videos and Misplaced Pages?

Hi all. Here is a video on pseudoscience that some here might find useful somewhere, if not Misplaced Pages

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHkjVySxagI

However, when is it ok to post videos within any article in Misplaced Pages? Cheers Nick Darnal (talk) 01:28, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

AfD:Reverse scientific method

Please, go make your voice heard in the discussion Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Reverse scientific method! Rursus dixit. (bork!) 13:01, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

NSF 2006

The NSF 2006 report supports the text. QuackGuru (talk) 20:09, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

The NSF 2008, 2009 and 2010 do not support the text. what's your point? --Ludwigs2 20:27, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

The point is that you did not deny the NSF 2006 report supports the text. QuackGuru (talk) 20:28, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I didn't provide this material, but merely integrated it into the lead in a more compact way. While I'm not sure the statement is needed in the lead, I did check the source to make sure the statement is supported. Footnote 29 of the NSF source gives ten items in their survey of 2001 and 2006 which they explicitly refer to as "pseudoscientific beliefs". ... Kenosis (talk) 20:35, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I simply cannot believe that we have to discuss this nonsense at yet another place. To how many articles and other pages has BullRangifer spread his misquotation?

The list is taken seriously out of context:

• The list was apparently made up by someone for a Gallup poll. It does not originate from the NSF.
• The NSF quoted the list in order to explain what exactly the Gallup poll had measured as a proxy for belief in paranormal. (Not pseudoscience.)
• The NSF document refers casually and carelessly to the 10 "paranormal" proxies in this way: "Nevertheless, about three-fourths of Americans hold at least one pseudoscientific belief; i.e., they believed in at least 1 of the 10 survey items".

Under these circumstances it is a bit of a stretch to claim that the NSF "gives ten examples of beliefs they consider pseudoscientific". What they really do is say that instead of measuring belief in pseudoscience they took someone else's poll that measured belief in paranormal. Since that is a bit dubious, they were also open about what exactly that poll measured – and lo and behold! it measures some things that are somewhat appropriate for paranormal but much less so for pseudoscience. Hans Adler 21:07, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

If you think the text is a misquotation then what do you think is the correct quotation that could be included in this article or do you think the source is unreliable. QuackGuru (talk) 21:11, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

(e/c) Kenosis - no one is question whether the phrase appears. that's just a red herring. The issue here is that you have a document (Science and Technology Indicators) revised by the NSF on a yearly basis. the document is not primarily about pseudoscience - in fact, the term pseudoscience in each year only appears in one section of one chapter dedicated to 'Public Attitudes' about science. Out of the last ten years of revisions, only two or three revisions seem to have anything like this terminology, and the most recent of those is four years old (four revisions ago). If the proponents of this silly piece of misrepresentation want to insist that the passage be used, then they are damned well obligated to attribute it correctly (as a minor point, occasionally made) and not misattribute it as though it were the whole and primary purpose for which the NSF writes and revises this document. do you have an objection to that?

I don't mind at all having people push for the scientific perspective: that's a good thing. that attitude doesn't extend to people who make arguments that the mentally retarded would have no trouble seeing through. please don't be complicit in their stupidity. --Ludwigs2 21:15, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Much of "paranormal" (didn't know this is a noun) falls under pseudoscience, but not all. As Misplaced Pages says: Pseudoscience is a that is claimed to be scientific, or that is made to appear to be scientific, but . There are things that fall under paranormal and don't satisfy even this most basic condition. Therefore they are not pseudoscience.

It's not as if the NSF didn't agree that the definition of pseudoscience necessarily includes that something pretends to be scientific. Here is the full paragraph that immediately precedes the paragraph of the NSF paper from which the misquotation comes:

Pseudoscience has been defined as 'claims presented so that they appear scientific even though they lack supporting evidence and plausibility' (Shermer 1997, p. 33). In contrast, science is "a set of methods designed to describe and interpret observed and inferred phenomena, past or present, and aimed at building a testable body of knowledge open to rejection or confirmation" (Shermer 1997, p. 17).

There are several red flags here that tell us this part of the paper has been assembled carelessly: The equation paranormal = pseudoscience that isn't even discussed anywhere, the claim that ghosts and reincarnation fall under pseudoscience (they mostly don't of course, they mostly fall under traditional beliefs or religion). And the fact that all of this wasn't present in the previous version and never appeared again, either.

As if that wasn't enough, it's not just quoted in a way that gives it more weight than it deserves, it's also assembled from something in the main text plus something in a footnote, in order to arrive at the surprising claim that ghosts and reincarnation are pseudoscience in contradiction to the previous paragraph. Hans Adler 21:16, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Seems to me that when the NSF states "Nevertheless, about three-fourths of Americans hold at least one pseudoscientific belief; i.e., they believed in at least 1 of the 10 survey items", then provides the list in the footnote, that's about as explicit as it gets. Plainly the sentence in the NSF document refers to the ten items as "pseudoscientific beliefs". And, it's not a "proxy", as Hans Adler says, for anything-- the title of the relevant section in the NSF document is: "Belief in Pseudoscience". And, I recommend to read the sentence in the article again-- it's not the same sentence that was discussed in the "Is the NSF a reliable source" RfC at WT:NPOV, nor the same sentence that was discussed at Talk:Ghost. The NSF doesn't explicitly assert that it represents the "scientific consensus"; it merely makes explicit by its usage of the words "pseudoscience" and "belief" that in their judgment the list consists of 10 "pseudoscientific belief" ... Kenosis (talk) 21:20, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

If that's your definition of wikt:explicit, then how do you define wikt:implicit?

It's painfully obvious that some poor guy (or gal) at the NSF, perhaps even a secretary, got the job to write something about belief in pseudoscience, didn't find anything but found a poll about belief in paranormal instead, and then just used that, hoping that nobody would notice. Well, someone did notice. A pseudo-pro-science POV pusher on a quote-mining spree found the passage and used it. That's not sound citation practice at all. I am glad we don't have to deal with Brangifer's "scientific consensus" nonsense that he had pulled out of thin air, but we must also fix the other problems. Hans Adler 21:28, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Now seriously, this is a travesty. We can't have the lead claim (correctly) that pseudoscience is something that poses incorrectly as science, and then say ghosts and reincarnation are examples of that. Not spiritism, "ghost hunting" or "reincarnation research", but ghosts and reincarnation, no less. It's a joke. Hans Adler 21:30, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, the NSF isn't required to prove anything to merit a statement about stuff they refer to as pseudoscientific beliefs. Anyway, given that I've become involved in trying to work the material into the article (not that I'm stuck on the idea), I took a cue from Hans Adler and modified the sentence to the following form: "The National Science Foundation, in reporting on "Belief in Pseudoscience" reports ten examples of paranormal beliefs they consider pseudoscientific:" . Possibly this helps towards resolving our little dilemma about whether to include this material and whether it's both compact and accurate. Again, in the end, I'm not stuck on keeping it in, but plainly some editors want it in there, and it'd be nice to find a workable solution if possible. ... Kenosis (talk) 21:40, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Another quick note: If it's to stay in there, maybe it needs to be made a bit less presumptively US-centric by including a reference to "the U.S. National Science Foundation"? I'm out of here for now-- everybody, good luck working it through. ... Kenosis (talk) 21:46, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

(e/c) well, I don't mind the source, but I do mind it being taken out of context. this chapter isn't even about pseudoscience - it's about poor critical thinking skills and science education, and pseudoscience enters in to it primarily as examples. the purpose of this quote was decidedly not to claim that there were 'pseudoscientific beliefs' but to point out that people believe things that have no scientific standing. let me look at the context here and see if I can create a better phrase than that, because that's still pretty hefty misrepresentation.

beyond that, I've made a decision. I know a few people in the NSF, and I have connections with a few largish scientific organizations. I think I'm going to poke around, find out who edits that section of the S&TI, send them links to these discussions, and encourage them to (a) clarify their stance on pseudoscience to prevent this kind of abuse, and (b) include these wiki-skeptic arguments as examples of the poverty of critical thinking skills in the American public. There's a gold mine here for a dedicated researcher; I'm even tempted to write up an article for publication on it myself. Might not work out, but if I'm lucky I'll get an en clair statement in the next S&TI; if I'm very lucky, I'll get the NSF to send a letter to the foundation asking them to cease and desist such misrepresentations. Might as well try to fix this problem at the source. --Ludwigs2 21:51, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

LOL. Fair enough, and true that their primary emphasis quite clearly is on critical thinking skills, even if the NSF writer is referring to those ten things as "pseudoscientific" and viewing "pseudoscience" a bit more widely than this WP article represents. But I must go now. See ya' later on. ... Kenosis (talk) 22:09, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

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