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{{tb|Jayen466|Opinion on starting a page on the Kilgour Matas Reports}} {{tb|Jayen466|Opinion on starting a page on the Kilgour Matas Reports}}

== Mundane book keeping. ==

I may at some time in the future have need to produce a diff wherein I asked you to stop pursuing, stalking and/or harassing Abd. Please consider this to be that diff, and please just leave him alone. Enough said. Have a nice day. --] (]) 03:00, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Revision as of 03:00, 20 March 2010

Enric Naval is taking a semi-wikibreak and will fully return to Misplaced Pages later.

This user is busy in real life and may not respond swiftly to queries.




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This page has archives. Sections older than 60 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

Is Storms RS? What about "heat dissipated into the lattice"?

Enric, I see that you have been discussing the removed material with Hipocrite. He's demanded that I not edit his Talk page for any purpose whatever, and I have no need to do so. I assume this is okay here. If not, please tell me.

However, some things should be said. First of all, Storms is RS, which doesn't automatically mean "unbiased," or "usable for fact" What independent book publication shows is notability. If RS states something, reference may be made in articles to that, it is, by definition, notable opinion; if it's controversial, it should be attributed.

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You have been mentioned on an arbitration enforcement discussion.

Please refer here.

Hi Enric. I hope you would oblige me two things. The first is to quickly explain, or refer me to something which outlines the preferred ways for editors to make changes to the pages and discuss them. I came up with my own way of trying to make things really transparent and to enable discussion, but it just kicked up a giant fuss. So, if you have something for me on that I would like to hear it. The second thing is about your recent change to the teachings page. Usually, If I wasn't being careful about what names people might get to call me, or what evidence they might collect, I would just remove the claim that Zhuan Falun II is not published in English because it's demonstrably wrong. But, do you have a better idea? Note both? I would also change "noted" to "wrote" or "said," to clarify that what she expresses is her opinion, and not a fact. But I do not want to perpetuate some impression that I'm a diehard pro-Falun Gong guy who will simply delete or marginalise whatever I don't like. And no, that's not some part of my greater scheme to lull people into a false sense of security. Anyway, I'll probably just make some changes to the Kavan thing. But since you complained about my editing, I would genuinely appreciate some other advice on a better methodology.--Asdfg12345 13:24, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Kavan paper was published in July 2008, and archive.org says that the page was created sometime around June 2008, and the page displays a translation date of June 2008 (although the books page claims a publication date of February of the same year ). I note that Zhuan Falun was apparently published in paper in 1996 and that the first online English translation appears to be from 1998. Note that Kavan's paper cites Penny 2003, so it's not like he's the first to make the claim of disappearing translations.
I also note a few discrepancies. The current English translation doesn't seem to say anything about light years so that part might have been mistranslated or missing from the translation? I also understand that "part II" is cited by Kavan as "part 11" (eleven), that the texts in the translation have date of 1995, that it was probably published in 1996 at the same time as the rest of the book. I also see that the 1996 translation only translates until part 9, so maybe "part II" is actually "part 11", or rather "lecture 11" and maybe also "lecture 10"? --Enric Naval (talk) 14:04, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
I have updated the text a bit. Notice the July-June difference. It's possible that FG followers got wind of the content of Kavan's paper when the abstract lists where released before the 6-8th July conference, and that they decided to release online the English translation. Several people, including the re must have seen it months before the conference Also, since the paper was refereed, Kavan couldn't have updated the paper in time to get it again throught the referring system, and . --Enric Naval (talk) 15:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
There are a lot of these 'mysteries' surrounding Falun Gong, such as why Li Hongzhi's biography claiming supernatural powers such as levitation also 'disappeared' from Falun Gong books at around the same period. Colipon+(Talk) 15:51, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Lecture 5, I think it is, mentions the light year there. See here, search "light year". There is no lecture 11 or lecture 10 in Zhuan Falun. I believe Kavan is referring to Zhuan Falun II, which was only available in Chinese for a while (well, there was a dodgy English translation of some years ago, but I only ever saw this on paper), and then published in English in June 2008. That's the only conclusion that would fit, I think. The idea that someone saw the abstract, guessed she was going to point out that Zhuan Falun II wasn't published in English, then rush to do another translation and get it online, doesn't make sense. It would take a while to translate the whole thing, and it would probably go through several people. How would they even know she was going to say that, and even know of the abstract? Zhuan Falun II's lack of an English version has been noted before, too, I think. The idea that she either didn't get time to update her notes, or more probably that it was published after she looked on the Falun Gong website, is far more plausible. If you want to leave it in, I'm not about to go and delete it. But it's inaccurate. I suggest you at least note that Zhuan Falun II is actually published. There's no Zhuan Falun 11, or lecture 11. Colipon, as far as I understand Li's biography was only published in the first publication edition of Zhuan Falun. I'm not sure of what time correspondence you are referring to, or what it might imply. (Heather Kavan is female).--Asdfg12345 01:21, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Enric, it's by no means obligatory of course, but I'd appreciate it if you could fill me in on the editing thing. Or if my methodology is sound, then don't worry.--Asdfg12345 01:23, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Kavan cites Deng & Fang 2000 "The two tales of Falun Gong". I quote from there:

Since Li is a junior high school graduate lacking any scientific training, it is not surprised to find that Li’s “scientific” teachings are full of misconceptions and blunders. For instance he taught the disciples (including some having advanced education in astrophysics) that one may witness things having taken place 150,000 light years “ago” in another 150,000 light years to come (ZFL C, 66; cf. ZFL E (2000): 191; after his critics points out “light year” is not a unit of time, the second sentence is translated as “year” instead; cf. ZFL BJE (1998): 88, the “light year” is accurately translated) (...).

From Lecture 5, the sentence:
  • "(...) what we can now see through the most powerful telescopes are things 150 thousand light years back. In order to see the changes of the present cosmic body, we must wait for 150 thousand years to pass"
would be a purposeful mistraslation "light years" to cover Li's blunder, since he originally stated:
  • "(...) what we can now see through the most powerful telescopes are things 150 thousand light years back. In order to see the changes of the present cosmic body, we must wait for 150 thousand light years to pass"
Now for other issues.
Hum, Kavan talks about "Zhuan Falun 11". Could this be a confusion with "II"? Is the "II" thing because Zhuan Falun book was the second book? Was the title changed from the Chinese original? Why isn't it named "lecture" like other texts? I don't know and I don't want to start elucubrating about it and going into original research. I also see that the light year thing was in chapter 5 while the homosexuality and buddishm things are in volume II. The Fang & Deng paper cites simply "Zhuan Falun" (as ZFL E) and 转法轮 (as ZFL C) and cites Zhuan Falun as a single book. As far as I am concerned, sources treat Zhuan Falun as a single book and "volume II" is an unsourced name that appears in the self-published FG website. RS treat Zhuan Falun as a single book. I edited the article a bit to fix the name problems a bit.
P.D.: the reasons for the online translation appearing in that date are my own speculations and they are not backed by sources, which means that they belong to talk pages, and that's why I haven't added them into the article. They are just an exposition that I felt that I had to do, in order to communicate better my ideas to other editor. --Enric Naval (talk) 03:18, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
About conduct, you should re-read my complaints in Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Asdfg12345 and Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#HappyInGeneral, and the problems raised by other editors.
Following in conduct, see WP:BRD be Bold, get Reverted, Discuss. You were being bold, then we you are being reverted, and then you reverted your edits back. You were supposed to leave the article page alone, and to go the talk page and make compelling arguments on why you were making those edits, and see if you could convince the other editors. If you can't convince them, then you are supposed to drop the matter or to raise it again when you have substantially better material. What you were doing instead was re-raising the issues without providing better material and without taking notice that a) other editors had raised problems b) those other editors considered that you hadn't solved the problems despite you thinking that you had done so.
In a collaborative project you are not always going to "win" arguments, sometimes you will "lose", or your argument will be changed into a different argument that you might not like. This is all part of a collaborative environment: accepting defeat gracefully, realising that you might be wrong when other editors tell you that you are wrong, etc. --Enric Naval (talk) 03:44, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
As for Talk:Falun_Gong#Changes_and_discussion_for_them, a) it's too little, too late b) you tried to keep your version of the article during the discussion, see my comment above about following WP:BRD c) you cram too much material in a single section, one section is not enough to discuss the reordering of several sections, several title changes, etc, d) you are basically asking that other editors prove you wrong, instead of trying to explain them why the edit is a good idea, that's a reversion of WP:BURDEN e) in other sections, like the "Luo Gan" discussion, you acted like the concerns raised by other editors were not important and you could simply set them aside because you thought them wrong, so you had already burnt out editors and shown them that you would refuse to take their objections seriously f) omnibus discussions like those only work if the individual discussions take very little space, and the other editors' experience with you showed that you were going to make every issue into a very long discussion g) as a member h) you mixed in stuff that already had its own discussion section, for example was already being discussed in Talk:Falun_Gong#Quick_note_on_the_Johnson_quote but you didn't link to that discussion when making the edit, additionally you only had some support from me to restore the "do good works" bit, but you only had support from HappyInGeneral to restore the full thing and remove the segregation thing, thus effectively choosing to ignore the concerns raised by Dan and Simonm223, and asking to start a new discussion when the old one is still ongoing is going to be interpreted as a disrespect to the people that already commented in the old one and who expect that their opinion is taken into account. Well, I could pick up a few more points but, honestly, the point here is that you need pay more attention and respect to the complaints made by editors who don't have a COI in the issue. --Enric Naval (talk) 04:47, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
And stop removing or adding newlines while you change a text like here, it just makes the diff difficult to read. Also avoid merging or splitting paragraphs while adding or removing text like here, for the same reason. Click in "show preview" before saving and check that it's easy for other editors to see with a quick look what exact parts of the text have changed. The combined diff of all those edits looks like a frigging mess and it takes a long long time to make sense of all of it. Moving section titles or changing them to completely different names in intermediate diffs just makes it difficult for other editors to see what part of the article you were editing. Such edits are bound to be wholesome reverted. You want the diffs of your combined edits to look like this, this or this. --Enric Naval (talk) 05:08, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
*sigh of relief* Enric, the information you've provided about the best way of editing etc. is extremely valuable. I just scanned it because now I'm feeling a bit burned out and need a break from all this. But I will read it again carefully later, click all the links, and see what I can incorporate (probably a lot). I appreciate your typing all that. Zhuan Falun II is just... Zhuan Falun 2. It's a separate book. It was published separately, like two years after Zhuan Falun. It was a bestseller on the Beijing book list that year (1996, zfl was late 94 I think). It's got the same title (Chinese equivalent) as the English version. It's in the list as 轉法輪（卷二）. That's book II, or volume II. It's never been printed as part of Zhuan Falun, but only separately. If I come across some third party sources which indicate this, I'll put them on the talk page (though primary sources are permissible in articles about themselves). Anyway. I checked the Chinese version for the light year issue and found that the original indeed said "light year" twice (現在天文學家看不到，是因為我們現在用最大的望遠鏡去看的時候，看到的光景是十五萬光年以前的事情。要想看到現在天體的變化，那得十五萬光年以後才能看的到，那相當久遠的。) The first instance was translated as "light year" and the second indeed translated as "year." I won't speculate on the rationale without any evidence, but of course, Kavan should have her point of view noted (as her point of view, I would gently add, not as a fact). I seem to recall that Li responded to a question about this in a separate conference once. What I'll do for now is probably just two things, since all the edits have been reverted again, and I'm feeling slightly fed up and feel I need to step back whatever the outcome of the AE. So as a temporary exit strategy I'm going to 1) put back in whatever sources I added, minus other the modifications made. 2) make a section on the page and put a bunch of sources, and like a one paragraph or few sentence snippet, with references, for whoever wants to use them. I might note where they might be relevant, which perspectives are missing. And we'll see what AE says. Thanks very much for the advice, it's not lost on me. I did not realise that I had genuinely annoyed people, and not that some people just weren't up for discussion and the hard work of looking at the details of things. When responses mostly include an epithet and nary a mention of the question at hand, one is apt to miss this. I will respond to your six points at AE later. I need to go drink a mate and read for a while. Thanks. Peace.--Asdfg12345 10:47, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

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WP:BLP non-consensual changes warning

It seems that a couple of editors are making a point of unilaterally changing WP:BLP without seeking consensus first, after that you correctly pointed out the bit about contentious material. I reverted twice but I can't revert more for WP:3RR: would you mind taking a look and see what can be done? thanks! --Cyclopia 01:26, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I was already looking at those reverts when the new message bar appeared. I'm looking in the history to see when the "contentious" wording was first used. --Enric Naval (talk) 01:31, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons#.22unsourced_or_poorly_sourced_CONTENTIOUS_material.22. --Enric Naval (talk) 01:58, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Articles prodded by one editor (to check them up):

Dave Pybus Howard Phillips (Nintendo) Caleigh Peters D. Brian Peterman Michael Pelkey Pamela Paulshock‎ Kelly Overton ‎Denis Ovens Krynauw Otto Andrew Osenga Osamu Migitera ‎Osamu Kubota Takayo Ookoshi Omer Léger Steve O'Donnell (writer) Bill Norrie Mose Navarra

ArbCom case

You didn't notify Lar that you'd added him to the BLP case, so I've done that. Dougweller (talk) 13:06, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I notified and he acknowledged. Not everyone uses those flashy notification templates, you know ;) --Enric Naval (talk) 13:10, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Ooooh, I see, I didn't list the diff in the case page, sorry. --Enric Naval (talk) 20:34, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Steve O'Donnell (writer)

Regarding the rationale you added to the prod: " Also fails WP:GNG because there doesn't seem to be any works reporting on him or his work", I was wondering if you actually bothered to look for sources. Sure, he's not one of the more famous writers, but he's had a career spanding over 20 years (which the article did state, even if it was unsourced). A quick google search did turn up sources, . For example, the third result was an interview he did with The Believer (again, not the most desirable source, but better than nothing) and he gets all sorts of mentions in news articles: . So for you to say "there doesn't seem to be any works reporting on him or his work" means that either a) You checked the wrong sources. b) You didn't look hard enough. or c) You didn't look at all. I don't want to preach because we all make mistakes, but I thought I would suggest that in the future, you actually take the time to back up what you claim. -- Scorpion 04:42, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I meant articles that were exclusively about him or one of his works, like "interview with Steve O'Donell, writer of Kimmel live", "Steve O'Donell: biography", or similar. The Believer piece is one of those articles. The Believer piece is a joint interview with his brother, it's not an article exclusively about him.
The other articles are consulting him about stuff related with comedy and comedy shows, or asking him because they are writing about the Kimmel show and he happens to be the head writer. If the head writer had been another person then they would have been interviewed that other person. That can be used as an indicator that he is notable, but they are not sources about him, they don't say when or he was born, why he joined the show, his life motivations, etc. They would only warrant a section inside the Kimmel Live article.
Similarly, the Emmy awards were not awarded directly to him, it seems that he shared it with all the other writers of those shows. (and I think that in Emmy-winning shows he wasn't the head writer, he was one of the writers in the staff?; ugh, a People article saying that he was head writer of letterman show and co-author of the top-ten list books, gotta add it to the article)
In other words, he doesn't pass any of the points of WP:CREATIVE. Still, it's a decent article, the subject is still active so he can still do more work, and it has a decent chance of surviving AfD depending on who comments, so I won't send to AfD. You are right, I didn't look hard enough, my apologies. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:41, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for taking the time to comment at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people, which will delete the vast majority of 50,000 articles created by 17,400 editors, mostly new editors. You may also be interested in the WP:Article Rescue Squadron. We have been working hard to find sources for the 236 articles which were deleted with no notice by 3 administrators. I love you picture of the cat above, keep removing those misplaced articles added by editors who ignore WP:HANDLE WP:BEFORE and WP:PRESERVE.Ikip 01:40, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I respect you contacting other editors about the Pamela AFD. I may change my !vote. we will see. Ikip 00:20, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

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(refactored) Ikip 03:56, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Response to your points in AE

Hi. I don't have a legitimate explanation as to why I have not responded to this until now. I guess because it was just this kind of bothersome thing and I didn't want to take the time out then. I looked through the diffs and argumentation you provided then. I'll paste the response below in a hidden template. It's just for your reference. Maybe one day, you could compare them. Just one more note on 2, though. If you read the whole discussion, and followed the links to the third party responses, and still came to the interpretation you did about my conduct and manner in that dispute, then I guess I can just say I would be surprised. It generated a lot of discussion, but I think the key of the dispute was also spelled out clearly several times. Despite initial intransigence, I did not suggest that such views should be disqualified from the article, and sought only for a clear and accurate presentation of the issues at stake. That may not have come across clearly, in which case I'm responsible. Anyway, I apologise for all the time you have spent, rightly or wrongly, on this. This isn't meant to spend more of it, but I at least feel I should respond. Best.

response to the six points raised at AE

1. The source used in was deemed inadequate, as a grad student. The source in is different. The problem with the source in (which is Gutmann) has not been explained, only said to have been explained. I’m currently still waiting on whether the problem is that Gutmann (and Noah Porter and Yuezhi Zhao, who too comment on it) are unreliable sources, and whether that is the locus of the dispute. It has so far been unclear, since first it was said that since Gutmann’s was published in a U.S. conservative journal it was not RS, but later this reason was dropped from the argumentation. The reason for excluding the info has still not been stated clearly. In , the material being put in is totally different from the disputed and . The impression given is that is the Luo/He thing. It’s not; just look.

2. This is a typical content dispute, and actually a somewhat complex one, but it has been interpreted as a POV battle. Is the content relevant? On reflection, I would not bother to argue against its inclusion but instead simply try to contextualise the matter, so at least it’s meaningful (the dispute was that, since this is a few lines of 2000 pages of teachings, is it notable? The response was “of course, it’s nuts, of course it’s notable!”). The NYT source attributes to Li things which he is not recorded as saying. Olaf Stephanos summed it as: “If there is an obvious discrepancy between the lectures and any derivative sources, which one do you think is correct? And if we choose to include such text from a derivative source, how should we articulate this discrepancy in the Misplaced Pages article?” For this, I would suggest simply reading through the dispute. I think I articulate my point of view clearly and civilly. It would be hard to rehash the details of the discussion here, and I think Enric Navel inadvertently painted an incomplete picture in the attempt to do so, so instead I would suggest simply reading through it. Edits are only half the story, and need the background of discussion to be made sense of. Also, there are at least some errors of interpretation. Check 61 for example.}} This is actually me replacing a watered down version that Dilip put up, not removing criticism. Just compare the first lines: “Richard Madsen, a professor of sociology at the University of California, says "among the Falun Dafa practitioners I have met are Chinese scientists with doctorates from prestigious American universities who claim that modern physics (for example, superstring theory) and biology (specifically the pineal gland's functioning) provide a scientific basis for their beliefs. From their point of view, Falun Dafa is knowledge rather than religion, a new form of science rather than faith.” – I replaced (Dilip had replaced what follows with what precedes already) with “Ownby says that Li's teachings on the role of science, supernatural abilities, and higher dimensions have been "ridiculed by scientists and journalists—both Chinese and Western—as being outlandish." – that is certainly not eliminating criticism, but precisely what the edit summary I wrote says: “restoring discussion of disputed teachings.” and were a compromise of slightly rephrasing the quote from NYT to remove the inaccuracy. A third party had raised this, in fact (“does this quote really need to be discussed in the article at all. Is it crucial to the article to mention it? (in other words... would it harm the article to simply ignore the entire issue?”)) This is a specific issue. If you read the discussion, you can see what the dispute was. It’s too abstruse to rehash, but there’s nothing wrong with rephrasing it so a secondary source does not contradict a primary source, as long as that information is being insisted on being kept. That was the first option. The second was to keep the apparent inaccuracy, and simply document what the other side said. But that was staunchly resisted, too. The idea was to present an apparently inaccurate source without stipulating that.

There is another side of the story that is not being mentioned here. Please see the third party appeal things I started (two notes), and what Dan wrote on the talk: “If we include the Smith version, we should try to get a clear picture of the dispute and spell it out there in the article.” – which is what I wanted to do. I would just say to read the discussion to get to the bottom of who behaved inappropriately in this dispute and who did not. I believe my early attempts to remove the material as non-notable were mistaken (I had tried to tread a middle ground, writing: “The basic thing seems to be that these teachings are not a notable part of the corpus of Falun Gong teachings--is there any evidence to the contrary? Do we have a good source linking the notability of Falun Gong to these teachings? This would be useful stuff” and when this was resolved, “My suggestion is a compromise, noting that journalists have raised criticisms, and that Falun Gong claims either willful or guileless misunderstanding”). I agree that I was slow in giving ground in the argument; for example, instead of being proactive in finding how these remarks are notable, I left that to Simon, but I think when it comes down to it, I articulated my concerns clearly, studiously avoided personal attacks, and sought third party opinion twice (after Simon223 ignored the first). I would regard the editing as a reflection of a content dispute, and not an edit war. I don’t think I went over 1RR doing direct reverts here; there was a lot of jiggling around in succession, but successive modifications and adaptations, I don’t think are the same as a direct edit war. The first is moving constructively, the second is when horns are locked, and I try to avoid that at all costs. In the final part, Enric writes that “he claims that the journalists only picked those quotes only due to influence from the Chinese government.” – no. I included Falun Gong’s response to similar criticisms. That is in line with Misplaced Pages content policies, and does not amount to me making those claims.

3. “claims” is one of the “words to avoid”, isn’t it? I don’t see how replacing it with “says” is a problem. “Says” is obviously more neutral. Regarding the final sentence, I don’t understand the note of triumph. They are obviously separate points of contention; one about what Li said in one context, one about what he said in another context. There is no way of knowing whether what the journalist (Smith) said is “correct” or not, only how it compares to the available primary sources. This isn’t a truth issue, just a verifiability issue. There would be no way of even extrapolating whether they changed one thing and not another, so even if I bought that assumption, it still would not apply to this case.

4. If you read what I wrote, you can see an obvious attempt to be helpful. Nearly every single change I made there was kept anyway, when I edited again. The second time around I simply didn’t bother to number them, and only added information rather than changed existing information or section titles. That itself should show that the changes were not problematic. Yes, I asked people to explain themselves on each point, rather than revert a series of changes with “POV-pusher” or some other nonsense. Is that unreasonable? Asking people to engage in discussion? Each edit is a separate point of potential disagreement or commentary. In this case, it would have been good to simply explain what was expected of me rather than assume I’m the bad guy after I wrote all that and spent the time. I learnt a lot from the recommendations of how to do diffs well.

5. Is there anything mistaken with that? If the source doesn’t say it’s controversial, then it’s our original research to say it is, isn’t it? This is very basic Misplaced Pages policy. We’re not supposed to choose ourselves which teachings are “controversial” and which aren’t. Or let’s have a “peaceful teachings” section, then. I’m not saying criticism or controversy is not notable, it obviously is, but it doesn’t take much to present things intelligently, with nuance, and in context, which is what we should strive to do.

6. In other edits I actually put the term “controversial” in the lead, in a sentence that said “The encyclopedia Britannica characterizes Falun Gong as ‘controversial’.” I disputed starting the article as “Falun Gong is a controversial spiritual movement that…” – I argued that this was unwarranted and there was a lot of fun discussion on it. That was resolved by attributing it. The other problems are content disputes. I think there is a lot of misunderstanding of my intentions generally. I’m actually not trying to cram my POV down people’s throats or down the throats of the articles. I’ve added an enormous amount of research to these pages, and want to see them read like professional, encyclopedia treatments of the subject. I do not want to eliminate all criticism from the pages, not by any means. Frequently, discussion of the actual content and sources gets overlooked for discussion of the individuals involved. That is unfortunate.

I will make an appeal of Sandstein’s decision later, and respond to the three problems he identified.

The Misplaced Pages Signpost: 1 February 2010

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User uses my talk page for article discussion

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:DuKu#Clovis_Sangrail_-_Edit_Warring - Advised user to stop in doing so. --DuKu (talk) 11:04, 4 February 2010 (UTC)


Draganparis: Sockpuppetry case

Don’t you see that this is a case of a confrontation of one (or two – if at all) newcomer where one tries to pursue a simple argument AND, on the other side, partially organised group of – how I underestimated them! – not 3-5 but about 10 or even more, basically Greek political fanatics.

The problem was always one word: whether Alexander the Grate was “Greek king” (certainly not, as I say, the Queen of England would be then German queen!!!); whether Cyril and Methodius were “Greek brothers” (they were of course Byzantine brothers – we can say Greek brothers but it is just slightly better to say Byzantine.). Trivialities. Yet, as the answers I received pages of unreferenced text rich in nationalistic and racist accusations. Who are these people? There is one who I can understand his/her condition and would not advance any explanation here. But the others who supported the front liner! The argument was absolutely trivial. But their excitation was bewildering!

Of course it looked like that “Greek brothers”, for example, is accepted in popular literature (encyclopaedias) while Byzantine studies scholars prefer “Byzantine brothers”. I was ready to accept this, but not accusations and hate. I am even not Macedonian or Greek or involved politically in any of their blind disputes. I will give you, Misplaced Pages, my full name, telephone number, address, Misplaced Pages has my e-mail, I can give to the Misplaced Pages officials my University e-mail EVERITHING!! – if Misplaced Pages would request. You can then find on the internet my full biography, publications, all, absolutely all, all is public. But this must be requested by the highest level of Misplaced Pages and not by the front-liner who is obvious gang member. Let us verify all of these! If you dare to take a risk and uncover the gang of political pamphlets and falsifiers of history. But if you are a part of them, then… then I wish you all the best.Draganparis (talk) 18:33, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

You were pointed to the work of many historians that called Alexander the Great a Greek king. Those are WP:SECONDARY sources. You are trying to extrapolate conclusions from original Greek sources. Here in wikipedia that's called original research. Misplaced Pages is not a university and it's not a hisstory journal, you don't come here to publish your research on antique texts, your credentials are not important here, you publish your work somewhere else and then it might be cited here by someone else. --Enric Naval (talk) 18:57, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

ItHysteria

I went to WP:RFPP very quickly . I tend to revert socked edits out as quickly as possible, rather than waiting for reports to process, even if it gets a bit tedious.—Kww(talk) 19:29, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Climatic Research Unit hacking incident

Thank you for your contributions to the encyclopedia! In case you are not already aware, an article to which you have recently contributed, Climatic Research Unit hacking incident, is on article probation. A detailed description of the terms of article probation may be found at Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation. Also note that the terms of some article probations extend to related articles and their associated talk pages.

The above is a templated message. Please accept it as a routine friendly notice, not as a claim that there is any problem with your edits. Thank you. -- TS 01:01, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages Signpost: 8 February 2010

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Human Rights Believer sockpuppet

I just wanted to say thank you for you help in dealing with this highly WP:DE user, and with his socks. He is quite a problematic user, so as you can see, all of us that disagree with his vandalism are socks of each other. Again, thanks! :) --Tadija (talk) 12:53, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

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Replied

See here, thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ 05:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Re: Watching the ejaculation page.

Hi Enric, no problem, your undo did happen fairly swiftly after the image was deleted. Thanks for pointing out the watchlist, I knew it was there though I have not used it yet, but I might sometime. Info has shown the content to be by a exhibitionist (the matter is beyond doubt). It is therefore not suitable here and that is why he deleted it. All the best DMSBel (talk) 01:24, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Your caption on the pic(at the top here) is very funny btw :-DDMSBel (talk) 01:27, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, it's very funny. I didn't write it. I just saw the image with the caption and I liked its message so much placed it here in my talk page. This way people see it when they are going to leave me a message. Hopefully the image induces people to make less accusations in the heat of the moment, and to think more about why I reverted them, or why I changed their texts. --Enric Naval (talk) 01:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

??????????????????????

WHO IS YOU TO TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK I SHOULD DO HUH ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrshistory2010 (talk • contribs) 20:06, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I am a random editor who saw the discussion in the admin noticeboard, and decided to drop by and leave a bit of useful advice. I'm sorry that you took it so badly. --Enric Naval (talk) 20:11, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Notice on arbitration amendment request

Please see here soon. I'm requesting an amendment to my case. --Asdfg12345 03:45, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

FYI, I do not harbor bad faith assumptions about how you're trying to smear Falun Gong for some unspecified reason.--Asdfg12345 23:43, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
It was a reference to . Specifically the part "Enric, this edit seems rather cynical, to say the least. Is the purpose of an encyclopedia to make a certain group look crazy, stupid, or heartless? That's what you do when you make edits like that.". This sounds very harsh to an editor that just tried to make an edit that helps to explain what believers believe in a certain group. My purpose wasn't to make FG look like bad, and your comment can easily be interpreted to mean that. Next time just suggest better sources for the apocalypse belief thing. --Enric Naval (talk) 00:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Enric, you are right that my note sounded harsh. I apologise for that. Given the history and context of the pages, and the constant difficulties in getting simple, neutral presentations of some of these basic facts, yes, I had thought that your note was a simplistic attempt to make Falun Gong look bad. It turns out that it was not, and I am sorry for misunderstanding your intentions. I agree with you that the point of it should be to show what believers believe in a certain group. In previous cases, several editors have run roughshod over attempts to do precisely that, instead deliberately pushing a negative agenda which introduced inaccuracies. Some of those inaccuracies are still on the pages, and attempts to explain and fix them have been dismissed as bad faith pro-Falun Gong advocacy. In those cases, the key is precisely to give an inaccurate and negative presentation to make Falun Gong look bad. If you would like to see the Falun Gong perspective on those claims, you could see this FAQ. That's not a full depiction, by my estimates, but nor does Kavan provide a full discussion. Ownby usually gives an evenhanded evaluation. I agree with you about how it should be to show what Falun Gong people believe. That's what I suggest, too. As I say, Ownby is a good source. --Asdfg12345 05:02, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Final discussion for Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people

Hello, I note that you have commented on the first phase of Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people

As this RFC closes, there are two proposals being considered:

  1. Proposal to Close This RfC
  2. Alternate proposal to close this RFC: we don't need a whole new layer of bureaucracy

Your opinion on this is welcome. Okip 02:04, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages Signpost: 22 February 2010

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Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Mctrain

I have just posted some suspected socks there. Edward321 (talk) 15:17, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages Signpost: 1 March 2010

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ANI on Dilip Rajeev

Note that I've made an outline of Dilip's recent editing behavior here--PCPP (talk) 12:15, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Memetics citation on "List of topics characterized as pseudoscience"

Thanks for going to the trouble of actually finding and linking to the book review in question! I feel guilty now because now that I've actually read the review I think I'll remove that citation, as the relevant material is merely a summary of McGrath's opinion, who once again doesn't fulfill the stated criterion for calling memetics pseudoscience.

Once again, thanks for the hard work, and sorry for undoing it! Lightnin Boltz (talk) 02:00, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

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New Arbitration Enforcement case: Dilip rajeev

Kindly note the WP:AE case above has just been filed. Ohconfucius 05:39, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Your addition of link to an AE closure to a talk page for a closed RfAr.

is a diff to a close of an AE report you added to the RfAr talk page. Perhaps you noticed my archiving of a closed RfAr/Clarification for that case, which I hope was done correctly. Normally, this would be done by a clerk, but it was apparently overlooked, so I Just Did It. I don't see any tradition of linking AE reports to the RfAr, and there are piles of them for many cases; there is a separate set of archives for AE. Is it really your intention to reopen discussion there? You did not sign it, so I'd think not. On the other hand, if one needs to be there, then they all should be there, don't you think? Will you consider removing it? --Abd (talk) 00:28, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I provided it to give context to the request for clarification right above it. No, there is no tradition to list AE threads in RfAR pages, but there isn't either any prohibition saying not to list them (this should fall back to a case-by-case ad hoc basis, with people listing them when they think that they will be necessary or useful). The talk pages of cases can be edited by anyone to add coments, not just clerks, even if the case is closed. No, I didn't want to restart discussion (I was just dropping stuff for reference in the future, to have all links related to the same topic in the same place so I don't have to hunt them down every time I check the topic in the future). No, I wasn't going to list all the AE threads, just that one in an ad hoc basis. I have no problem with going ahead and listing all AE threads and not just that one. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:20, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

My talk page

You may have noticed that yesterday afternoon, I removed several comments--including some of yours--from my talk page. What I had meant to do was remove a discussion that had degenerated to sniping back and forth between two individuals; unfortunately, some other comments I did not mean to remove got caught up in the mix and I didn't catch it until just now. I have restored your comments, obviously well-intentioned, as well as my latest response which you may have missed. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!: 16-0 and Super Bowl XLIV Champions) 18:58, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Ah, ok, I thought that you had gotten tired and no longer wanted to talk. I have commented in your talk page. --Enric Naval (talk) 20:44, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Could you help with a Human Rights in China Project?

Enric, this is to request you to join http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals/Human_Rights_in_China. I sincerely believe you could contribute much in terms of content and research.Dilip rajeev (talk) 08:10, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages Signpost: 15 March 2010

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Hello, Enric Naval. You have new messages at Jayen466's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Mundane book keeping.

I may at some time in the future have need to produce a diff wherein I asked you to stop pursuing, stalking and/or harassing Abd. Please consider this to be that diff, and please just leave him alone. Enough said. Have a nice day. --GoRight (talk) 03:00, 20 March 2010 (UTC)