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Sulmues

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Sulmues

User requesting enforcement

Athenean (talk) 05:55, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Sulmues (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

WP:ARBMAC#Principles#Purpose of Misplaced Pages

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

This user displays classic WP:BATTLE mentality. Many of his actions appear calculated and solely designed to irritate other editors as much as possible, without any obvious benefit to Misplaced Pages. Whether it is aggresively-worded, inane merger proposals accompanied by talkpage rants as a way of getting around the normal AfD process, or adding articles that have nothing to do with Albania to the Albania TF in a tendentious manner and then using inflammatory language on the TF page to rally the troops so as to make sure the Albanian National POV is represented , it just doesn't stop.

At Pyrros Dimas, a BLP article, he's been at it for months . Just when things had quieted down a bit, he has now managed to mis-read WP:MOSBIO and he has started the nonsense all over again . His proposal is utterly nonsensical (P.D. renounced his Albanian citizenship early on, and became notable after that) and based on a (deliberately?) flawed understanding of WP:MOSBIO. It's pretty clear he won't stop until he has had his way in that article. Such proposals are motivated by nothing more than nationalist feeling, generate tons of wikidrama, and do absolutely nothing to improve the encyclopedia.

Here he is aggressively editing another flashpoint article , adding massive amounts of inflammatory material while admonishing others to go to the talkpage and not revert him. The mere fact that on this very thread, he defends such edits as "very good" speaks volumes.

But most egregious of all is this post to another user's talkpage, urging him to create a new battleground article . Such inflammatory "we-are-victims" articles and the countless hours of wikidrama they invariably generate are the last thing this encyclopedia needs, especially in an area as troubled as the Balkans. Recruiting other editors to create battleground articles is the epitome of WP:BATTLE behavior (incidentally, User:Mladifilozof does nothing else on this encyclopedia but create such battleground articles). And this is in just the last two days! It just doesn't end with this guy, it's like his mind can't stop coming up with ways to create new battlegrounds. A couple of weeks ago I filed this AE request , where he only narrowly escaped a topic ban on the thinnest of technicalities. Yet instead of heeding the warning, it appears he has taken the fact that he got away with it as an endorsement and is now even more aggressive. Though he has also made positive contributions, I believe he causes far more harm to the project than good. I am convinced that there won't be peace and quiet on Albania-related topics as as long as this user is allowed to edit them. He was given a chance last time, and he blew it.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Topic ban from Albania-related topics

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I also see on this very thread that Sulmues is threatening to press ahead with the creation of a Cham Genocide article, even though a literature search reveals such a term doesn't exist . If that's not classic WP:BATTLE behavior, I don't know what is. Also, the stuff about Pyrrhus of Epirus and the antiquity articles is malarkey, but is very illustrative: Claims that he and the Molossians and Thesprotians are Albanians are WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE. Pyrrhus' capital was in Arta, far to the south, he founded only *one* city, Antigonia (Chaonia), in the territory of present-day Albania. So what? Only nationalists consider Pyrrhus to be Albanian. There are plenty of Albanian nationalists that also consider Alexander the Great to be Albanian,. Does that mean that their views should be included in that article? Sulmues wild claims about "The Albanian archaeologists' NPOV is continuously deleted in Misplaced Pages by the Greek editors." is sheer nonsense, and his posts to the TF talkpage are a classic call to arms to ensure that the Albanian nationalist POV is represented in these articles. Nothing could be more WP:BATTLE than that. Today it's Pyrros Dimas and Pyrrhus of Epirus, tomorrow it's going to be Achilles (referring to this image ) and Alexander the Great (and probably still Pyrros Dimas). I also note that many of Sulmues' wild accusations on this thread are completely unfounded and beyond the pale, whether about my perceived "extreme rudeness" (when in fact it was he who was trolling my talkpage), "extreme edit-warring", or about "anyone who dares question Pyrrhus' Greek origins will be reported" (that's a funny way of describing academic and wikipedia consensus). Sulmues' claims on this thread that "I must have read that in some inappropriate website" are disingenuous and an insult to the community's intelligence. Athenean (talk) 04:22, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Update

Sulmues is also wikistalking me. When I became involved in a discussion at Talk:Ethnic groups in Europe#Ethno-linguistic_map_dispute, an article he has never shown the slightest interest in, he and his teammate ZjarriRrethues popped in within a few hours of my original post just to spite me, using the usual inane arguments . It is quite clear he has no idea what he is talking about regarding Gaelic and no interest whatsoever in the article, he just saw what he thought was a good opportunity to spite me. He is also an expert at taking my words out of context and playing the good guy, e.g. here , where he claims he was trying to "collaborate" with me, but in fact all he was doing was trolling my talkpage and threatening me with nothing short of a community ban . Athenean (talk) 19:42, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Sulmues

Statement by Sulmues

I know this editor (user:athenean) only because of his extreme edit-warring and the reports that he files against me. Only recently he got a block because of his edit-warring at Vjose. It is a mystery to me how an editor with more than 8k edits, such as Athenean, a Tutnum, would recur to edit-warring.

If an admin falls into the traps of this user:Athenean report, then I'll be glad to be topic banned and I'll quit Misplaced Pages, because that will mean that there is something wrong with the whole system. Athenean has made more reports against me than he has written any articles (only 4, see ), whereas I have written 75 (see here), out of which 72 only in the last three months, however he is a specialist in reporting people who contribute and use proper sources, and he'll make sure to revert them to death because of wp:idontlikeit. Below I will bring some reverts that he has made, notably in Albanian language, but just to give an example of the many reverts that he makes I'll bring this one where he liquidates me in a second as a POV editor, while deleting my sources. I could bring much more, but I am here to defend myself.

I am an incredibly valuable contributor to the Albanian Task force because of my edits and articles created. It is contributors like me that Athenean would love to kick out in order to assert his POV in Albania related topics: I am trying to enter through consensus NPOV whereas his POV pushing and continuous wp:harassment against me has been noted at the Arbmac talk page (Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Macedonia#Statement_by_sulmues). I know what this is all about: the article that I will write on the Cham Genocide. I have already asked for the collaboration of user:mladifilozof on the topic (see here) because he is a political analyst and his style would be more than helpful. Mladifilozof gently offered to help (). User:Athenean would love to prevent that from happening and he promptly reported me here (see here). 25k Cham Albanians were expulsed from Greece in 1944-1945 even though the discrimination started much earlier (see Cham_Albanians#Population_exchange_and_appropriation_of_property_.281923.E2.80.931926.29, Cham_Albanians#Discrimination_and_normalization_.281927.E2.80.931936.29, Cham_Albanians#Crackdown_under_the_Metaxas_regime_.281936.E2.80.931940.29, Cham_Albanians#First_expulsion, and Cham_Albanians#Involvement_in_the_Greek_Civil_War.2C_repatriation_by_ELAS_and_final_expulsion). An article on the Cham genocide is warranted in Misplaced Pages and I intend to write it. Everyone can then nominate it for deletion.

So far User:Athenean has falsely accused me of socketpuppetry User_talk:Moreschi#Sulmues.3DGuildenrich, endorsed user:alexikoua's false accusation of, again, socketpuppetry Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Sarandioti/Archive#Report_date_September_13_2009.2C_04:52_.28UTC.29_2 here, accused me of incivility three weeks ago here, you name it. He will never stop, until an admin will take a decision to block him for harassment. He reports me on every occasion and is extremely rude when I talk to him in the talk page when he tells me to stay off his talk page (see the most recent , ), or in the articles' talk page even though I have a point . I don't respond to his incivil comments and I swim away.

Addressing the accusations specifically

Now I'll address the accusations because I have to do so for respect of the time of the deciding admin. They are ALL ill-suited and my defense follows:

• inane merger proposals

How is a merger proposal inane? It actually makes sense to have Albanian nationalism merged to Greater Albania.

• accompanied by talkpage rants

This is not a rant: Many arguments in the article are not well supported. Nationalism seems to have started in Albania in 1994 after Edward Jacques according to Athenean POV. This just doesn't make sense.--sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Tsamiko dance. So I guess, it is Ok for User:Athenean to expel 25,000 Cham Albanians (children included), as collaborationist with the Nazis, but instead keep their dance in the Greek TF only, and not under the Albania TF? The Tsamiko Dance (Template:Lang-sq) is extremely popular in Albania, used in wedding parties. Not only that, but the dance has even more variants than it has in Greece, notably the Dance of Osman Taka. His partner, Alexikoua made sure to revert me ()--sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Pyrrhus of Epirus lived in an area that is in modern Albania and that's where the most important archaeological excavations are made. The Albanian archaeologists' NPOV is continuously deleted in Misplaced Pages by the Greek editors. We are forced to keep our references here (Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Albania#Origin_of_Albanians) because we know that we'll be edit warred, reverted and reported. See four times deletions of user:Athenean only in Albanian language (, , , and ). We are not even allowed to put the article in the Albania TF (see revert where user Athenean even takes out my talk in the talk page with derogatory comments. Both Pyrrhus cities: Butrint, his main residence, and Antigonia_(Chaonia), are in modern Albania. The discoveries of neutral archaeologists that assert the Illyrian origin of Phyrrus are completely, arrogantly, and mysteriously ignored. Whomever dares to go against Pyrrhus' Greek origin and tries to bring sources about his Illyrian origin will be reported. Actually I reconsidered this in the Pyrrhus talk page and stroke my edits. It doesn't seem there is sufficient evidence to claim Illyrian origin of Pyrrhus. See Talk:Pyrrhus_of_Epirus#Albania_TF--sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• .

I am trying to enter these articles under the Albania TF project. Both the Molossians and the Thesprotians (the last one correspond to the territories inhabited by Cham Albanians) cannot be under the Albania TF according to User:Athenean. I was reverted for each one of them () and (), and did not edit-war, but those areas of Southern Epirus have historically had an Albanian presence that culminated with the dinasty of Gjin Bue Shpata in the 14th century. The Greek editors continue to say that there is no link between the Illyrians and the Albanians, just to assert that in the antiquity the Molossians, Thesprotians and Chaonians were not Illyrians but Greek. Actually there is a lot of evidence to contrast that. In addition several Albanian archaeologists (Korkuti, Prendi, Ceka) endorse the continuity Pelasgian-Illyrian which makes the Greek editors infuriate more than anything else (Read ). These people have been archaeologists for the last 50 years and were not born yesterday.--sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• using inflammatory language on the TF page to rally the troops .

I don't know where you see the fire in my language. The fire is only in your reports. We are collaborating in our Albania TF to provide sources that are NPOV. There are no flames. Everything that the Albania TF stands for is good secondary sources.--sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• At Pyrros Dimas, a BLP article, he's been at it for months' .

Just when things had quieted down a bit, he has now managed to mis-read WP:MOSBIO and he has started the nonsense all over again .

Read Talk:Pyrros_Dimas#Per_Manual_of_Style_the_lead_paragraph_is_wrong. Read it carefully. I am right per MOS. Dimas was World's Vice Champion juniores, European Master and member of the Albanian national team in Weightlifting that placed 3rd in European Championship and 2nd in European Cup for Nations. He was notable already and at that time had no Greek citizenship. My proposal to mention that he holds both passports, but has Greek ethnicity is very sensible. You are getting continuous reverts from IP addresses because a lot of people are angry to read in Misplaced Pages that he is only Greek. He was a great Albanian champion way before he became a champion in Greece. Per MOS he was already notable, as I explain in the talk page. What is currently in the lead is to say the least controversial, besides being incorrect per Wiki policy. Can I add now that I know Pirro Dhima personally and that I have talked to him several times? I know exactly who he is and what he stands for, but this is outside the point. --sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• It's pretty clear he won't stop until he has had his way in that article. Such proposals are motivated by nothing more than nationalist feeling, generate tons of wikidrama, and do absolutely nothing to improve the encyclopedia.

Actually all the wikidrama I get is from you.--sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Here he is aggressively editing another flashpoint article , adding massive amounts of inflammatory material while admonishing others to go to the talkpage and not revert him.

I made very good contributions (see difference. Filates was a town populated mostly with Albanians until 1945 when the final Cham Genocide occurred. You are trying to hide a genocide in Misplaced Pages using WP:AE to report me who is writing it down with plenty of good references. See reverts that were made to my very well sourced edits ( and , , through edit-warring of the tandem Megistias-Alexikoua. I did not engage in edit warring --sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• But probably the worst of all is this post to another user's talkpage, urging him to create a new battleground article .

Mladifilozof is a professional political analyst. He has written plenty of articles on the Genocides and is the most respected person around to be able to help with the Cham Genocide. I pointed it out in the beginning that you just want the Cham Genocide to disappear from everywhere. Turkey has tried to do that with the Armenian Genocide, but couldn't do it.--sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• And this is in just the last two days! It just doesn't end with this guy, it's like his mind can't stop coming up with ways to create new battlegrounds. A couple of weeks ago I filed this AE request , where he only narrowly escaped a topic ban on the thinnest of technicalities.

So are you trying to make an OJ Sympson case here? This is unbelievable. There was absolutely nothing to support your claims and user:Sandstein didn't fall into your trap. I hope the next admin won't fall either. You know that I'll write Cham Genocide and I know that you'll bring it to AfD. Let me write it first and then you can bring it to AfD.--sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Though he has also made positive contributions, I believe he causes far more harm to the project than good. I am convinced that there won't be peace and quiet on Albania-related topics as as long as this user is allowed to edit them. He was given a chance last time, and he blew it.

Since I started to contribute heavily in December 2009 the number of the Albanian topics has almost doubled, because I have tagged many Albanian related topics, written articles and kept excellent communication with Albanian and non-Albanian users to improve our Task Force. The number of the Albanian related topics went from ~900 to 1700+ only in three months (see Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Albania/To_Do_List)! Whether I am here to improve Misplaced Pages with my 6.4k edits and 75 articles that's not for you to decide. If I were you, I would focus more on writing articles than on reverting, edit-warring, and falsely reporting. Your behavior classically falls under wp:harassment, but I am too busy to report you and I have faith in the admins. I need to write down articles instead and take care of my Albania TF. Not only you are not leaving me alone but along with user:alexikouayou are also accusing other editors as soon as they join Misplaced Pages with false accusations of socketpuppetry, harassing them as soon as they start contributing (see (Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Sarandioti/Archive#Report_date_March_13_2010.2C_01:24_.28UTC.29). You are harassing many Albanian contributors with your lack of faith and continuous battleground behavior. Look at yourself first before accusing anyone. I have been even too patient with you too. I should report you for harassment. --sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I am finished unless some other Greek editor makes any further accusations, which is usually the practice they follow when they accuse me. --sulmues (talk) 14:52, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Addressing accusations of other editors

Ok here they come: I am basically accused that the IP editors revert Alexikoua??? How can I be accused that your edit-warring is reverted? You just got out of a 3 day block , because you always revert and edit-war with derogatory comments. I have advised you several times not to edit-war but sort the issues in the talk page or through my user page. I usually will say to you in your talk page if I revert you, and we have had good collaborations for many articles, such as Andreas Zarbalas. Why not continue that? Ops, I noticed that you have already reverted my proper sourced additions in Filiates ( and ) and then the usual tag teamed revert by Megistias (). I won't engage in edit warring with you, don't have the time. You are disruptive with your edits. Shkumbin: You were reverted by other people, not by me. And yes, I agree with their edits , as you are trying to enter in Misplaced Pages that there are no Albanians South of Shkumbin, leaving half of the Albanian nation (the tosks) out of nowhere.

Regarding the fact that I disregarded user:sandstein's warning: I really took that warning seriously, but Sandstein had not read my answer fully when he made the decision. --sulmues (talk) 15:11, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

In regards to the statement of user:tadija. user:ZjarriRrethues argumented very well about his goals, but his edit got messed up with a very disruptive edit that user:tadija just made, which completely messed up the timing of the postings (). That edit should be possibly reverted. That very revert to mess up the timing of the postings, and to have the last word is indicative enough of that person. I told him in his talk page to revert himself () but he didn't do it, and here is his mocking response --sulmues (talk) 16:44, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Again for Tadija. The last decent interaction I had with you was here. User_talk:Gaius_Claudius_Nero#Skanderbeg, where you didn't answer me. Then you jumped on the boat in the last two reports that user:athenean filed against me. Now you are bringing an edit from May 2008. In addition, could you please get comfortable with Misplaced Pages:Don't_template_the_regulars? That's the reason why I deleted that message. --sulmues (talk) 18:59, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Addressing further accusations of user:Athenean

In regards to the additional comment of user:Athenean. You just confirmed that all this is about your fear about the new article Cham Genocide. You can read that the Albanian government brought it up in the Paris Conference in 1946 (see here). You may also want to know that in Albania there is a 1994 law about the Cham Genocide see here, when 27 June is declared by the Albanian Government as the Day of the Cham Albanians who suffered Genocide fro the Greek Shauvinism. Plenty of more sources to come. Make sure to bring the article to AfD as soon as it's ready as you already did for all the Cham Albanians founding fathers of Albania (Veli Gërra (Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Veli_Gërra), Jakup Veseli (Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Jakup_Veseli), Rexhep Demi (Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Rexhep Demi), Azis Tahir Ajdonati (Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Azis Tahir Ajdonati)). --sulmues (talk) 21:37, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Further comment for user:Athenean. Under Misplaced Pages:No_personal_attacks#What_is_considered_to_be_a_personal_attack.3F you can read that personal attacks include:

Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence.

If you continuously accuse with your diffs not supporting what you say, then this falls under harassment. In the last accusation you accused me of being incivil, and it turned out that all your diffs did not support that. Before you had accused meto be a Sockpuppet) endorsing a false accusation, and prior you had accused me at Moreschi's page again as a sock, again unjustly. They were all false accusations and proved so. But you did not stop, and I don't think you will until you get your way. Now you are reporting under wp:battleground and when all your diffs will be proved wrong, this will fall under harassment. You have been warned. You are harassing me. --sulmues (talk) 23:14, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Another comment on the accusations that you make to a newbie like you derogatorily call ZjarriRrethues. I think he is defending me based on my contributions, but also based on the fact that probably he senses that you won't stop with me and he is next in your agenda of accusation of every Albanian editor. He probably senses that you will never stop in making wikipedia your personal battleground and POV pushing place. You accuse me of hypocrisy about Pyrrhus of Epirus, but those edits were made in good faith and I stroke myself in the talk page. You have already accused ZjarriRrethues improperly to be a sockpuppet and have done so in several occasions. That falls under personal attacks and you have continued to do so after you had been warned ]--sulmues (talk) 23:46, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Talking of sockpuppets, it seems that instead, user:tadija is likely to be one even though it was not confirmed (see ), only per intercession of a Serbian admin (User:Obradovic_Goran) that works for the Serbian wikipedia, which I found very odd. --sulmues (talk) 23:46, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Concluding, I think that I might have exagerated while I tagged Albania TF Pyrrhus of Epirus without having full proper sources. I must have read some website that is far from proper secondary sources. In addition my intention was mainly to bring to the community Albanian language sources for the two main cities that are in modern Albania, Antigonia (Chaonia) and Butrint, both founded by Pyrrhus, so my intentions were in good faith. However I apologize for that to the Misplaced Pages community: because I asserted that he might have Illyrian origin, while that still is not verifiable. I already apologized to the community in the talk page as well. But from here to say that I should be topic banned is a long way, I believe. All the other diffs do not support what user:Athenean is accusing me of. The Albania TF is a better place since I joined and many Albanian related topics are being covered. I think although I have received plenty of accusations from User:Athenean, and although he is a very proud person, he has a good logic and with some effort can learn to respect other users, because right now he is not respecting me. On my side, I will try to respect a little bit more him. --sulmues talk contributions 15:08, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Addressing Update of user:Athenean

In relation to this edit of User:Athenean: he continues his personal battle against mehere and also in my talk page with additional threats of reports because "I am following him around" User_talk:Sulmues#STOP_following_me_around. This editor clearly has personal issues with my editing and is continuously harassing me, even though he claims I am harassing him, thus playing the victim. --sulmues talk contributions 19:06, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I really wish I could collaborate with this user more and I have tried several times, but all I get when I write to him in the talk page is to "Stay off my talk page" , "Spare me the preaching" , again "Get off my talk page" , or "I'm not interested in discussing with you . What more can I say about the willingness of collaboration of this user? --sulmues talk contributions 19:38, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Sulmues

Comment by Mladifilozof

"incidentally, User:Mladifilozof does nothing else on this encyclopedia but create such battleground articles".

Please Athenean, if you think that my behavior on Misplaced Pages is irregular or offensive, report me regularly and I shall have the right to defend myself. Do not accuse me behind my back. Thanks.--Mladifilozof (talk) 16:12, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment by ZjarriRrethues

Although I have partially commented on this matter, since Athenean continues to try to get Sulmues blocked I'll reply again here. I told yesterday to Athenean to take it easy and not attack other users. About this matter:

• is as anyone can see a discussion where Sulmues says that if no one objects he will make the changes, so I can't understand how this is "agressive or inflamatory"
• He is asking from a user to write an article, since he thinks that user is more experienced. Again I don't really see why this is agressive.
• He posted a proposal and Athenean considers that "aggressive".
• As far as I can see this is sourced and isn't "inflammatory". I don't see how this is a problem according to Athenean.

• is a wikiproject talkpage so it is most normal to have such a message there and as far as I can tell he isn't "rallying" any "troops".

Generally, the language used in this report by Athenean is very aggressive, harassive and similar to other messages of Athenean like this . Also in this report users like Mladifilozof have been mentioned and accused and I think they should be informed.--— ZjarriRrethues — 11:00, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I think that this report is the result of overreaction and hostility. I think that all users should "take it easy" and spend their time improving wikipedia and not accusing and reporting each other, don't you all think?--— ZjarriRrethues —  13:10, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Quoting Tadija: User:Sulmues showed numerous times that we don't want to follow NPOV, and meatpuppetry is just one of his ways. Actually, i think that it is pointless to add ones again all problematic diff's that Sulmues did. However, Tadija has had virtually no interaction with Sulmues except the 2 reports(with this being the second one) against Sulmues initiated by Athenean and Alexikoua, which he supported. At least now certain things are clear...--— ZjarriRrethues —  15:49, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

How are any of these IPs related to Sulmues? I don't see any proof but accusations, so I'll regard your statement Alexikoua as a personal attack against him. In Shkumbin I see that the IPs are actually against Sulmues's consensus but that doesn't stop you Alexikoua from accusing him that they are collaborating with him. User:Tadija I see that you have had no interaction with User:Sulmues except when you again without having any interaction with him decided to support 's] report where Alexikoua reported Sulmues as a sock . If I may quote I see that you said This is such a DUCK, that i cannot say almost anything else which was proven wrong. Considering that this is the second time you interact with Sulmues and you do that only to support a report which is supported by the same users users who wanted to block him as a sockpuppet, is very suspicious.--— ZjarriRrethues —  15:29, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I also find it pecular that in the very few interactions you've had with Sulmues Tadija, most of them had as participants also Alexikoua or Athenean.

I think I should remind to Athenean that JulianColton has already warned him not to accuse me for being a sockpuppet/meatpuppet or anything else.--— ZjarriRrethues —  19:08, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Tadija

As i told earlier, the most damaging way of editing wikipedia is trough WP:BATTLE. User:Sulmues showed numerous times that we don't want to follow NPOV, and meatpuppetry is just one of his ways. Actually, i think that it is pointless to add ones again all problematic diff's that Sulmues did. I also agree, regarded user:Mladifilozof remark by Athenean. At the end, i give up. Tried with some reverts, but i simply had no will to enter marathon discussion, each time with same "arguments" and conclusions. So, i am out of that. Both of them don't know what neutral means, and both of them uses wikipedia just as a tool of accomplishing they're instinctive desires and POV's. When they are joined, then everything else is pointless to discuss. Per ARBMAC conclusion, that kind of editing is highly unwelcome in Balkan related articles. I already talked to User:Prodego regarding this, so it will be wise to invite him also into conversation.

No more words from me. Everything is already said.

Use of the site for other purposes—including, but not limited to, 
advocacy, propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, and political or ideological struggle—is prohibited.

This is the main idea why ARBMAC is generally established, in the first place. --Tadija 14:05, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

@Zjarri - (No sources, despite more then 10 of them), (opened AfD, violation of the ban imposed here), (just one theory of Sulmues, Albanians as creators of Serb nation) (Warning about WP:FORUM that he deleted in the moment)...

And this is just few of them that i remember. Please, write in your own space, and don't write about things that are not true. Also, you dont need to comment everything on this page. One main comment will be good. --Tadija 16:30, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Alexikoua

Sulmues has been advised multiple times to calm down and avoid battlefield behavior ], but in vain. Last time he was warned for this ], but he completely rejected this warning ].

In the following days he continued this dangerous pattern. Although in some occasions, like in Shkumbin I&Sulmues initially reached an consensus ], but after a few days the usual ip army that follows Sulmues attacked. Characteristically Sulmues continued to edit the article after the ip disruption but without reverting them, proving that he enjoyed this activity. Same situation in Filiates, Sulmues makes massive pov edits without initiating any discussion in article's talk page, he is reverted, but suddenly the ip army strikes again and restores his massive edits. In Pyrros Dimas he uses the dirsuption, created by ips ], as an argument to promote his pov verion.Alexikoua (talk) 15:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Some other examples are his late obsession to create the Cham Genocide (suppose to describe events already described in Expulsion of Cham Albanians but promoting his personal POV), and to support the 'Albanian POV' as he says here ]. I see that his recent warning was just the reason to initiate a more massive wp:battle.Alexikoua (talk) 15:11, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

What really impresses me is that User:Sulmues has never admitted that he overdid it (at least a little) after all this discussions, blocks and topic bans he received. Although he has been warned several times to avoid wp:battle by third part users ] he mysteriously insists to play the victim of the situation, launching accusation against everyone. No wonder, he promised to continue his wp:battle behavior in near future ].Alexikoua (talk) 14:18, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Lontech

Sulmues has made an extraordinary contribution to the improvement of articles

Allegations are from users without credibility (like tadija with more than one account-socks). and non-neutral users like Athenean and Aleksikoua who oppose everything that is against the greece politics(nationalism).-- LONTECH  Talk  22:57, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Megistias

Sulmues has a static monolith of an opinion and stance on things that lacks all and any elasticity that would give him room for improvement and a positive view on things. According to him diff Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard Quote: "but the Greek editors (Athenean, Megistias, Alexikoua) work to prove that the Albanians have no connections with the Illyrians"..."seems like a very good plan to make today's Albanians seem as if they are foreigners in their own land, not autochtonous, which in the Balkans would be only the Greek population. No other population in the Balkans can enjoy the autochtonous status but the Greeks, according to these three editors."... "This is the standard that these three editors are following in all the history articles especially in the Illyrian Albanian articles that have been usurpated by them", etc, etc. The fact that he goes on expressing such views, and acting upon them, bearing a staunch belief that they are the state of affairs and motive behind activities makes this user's general attitude ligneous and unyielding. Megistias (talk) 11:10, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Kushtrim123

This is another bad faith nationalist driven report by users with blocks full of edit-warring blocks. Some of them like Athenean I found out that have been banned in the past from Balkans-related articles. Tadija has also been blocked because of having sockpuppets. Taking all of this in account, the explanations provided above for the so-called "proof against Sulmues", the large contributions of Sulmues in Albania-related articles, and the constant personal attacks against him by recently blocked users already blocked, I honestly must say that we should discard this so-called report as another harassive attack in a long series of personal attacks launched against him.--Kushtrim123 (talk) 14:38, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Aigest

Saw this thread on Sulmues talk page and I felt obligated to write smth about him and this issue. If you look at through all Albanian contributors talk pages you may notice that everyone of them has been reported by Greek contributors in relation to their contribution to Albanian articles and this persistence of patrolling Albanian related articles is astonishing. I don't think that it is possible that every single Albanian contributor in wiki (even anon IP) is wrong. This is very frustrating and many good editors from Albanian side (just like the cases of Taulant23 or Balkanian`s word show), have left wiki for this reason. User sulmues is a good contributor. He has written many articles and kept writing them even when he was the only Albanian contributor in wiki for some time. I give him credit on that because other including me didn't had the nerve to continue. Being the only one he was constantly under the same pressure and sometimes this might have affected his behavior, but that's understandable. I can assure that everyone of us might have reacted this way. I agree that it takes two to make a tango, but unfortunately one of the partners is not interested in dancing. Aigest (talk) 16:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment by A Stop at Willoughby

This AE thread is still unresolved, as no uninvolved administrator has addressed the request yet. As such, I've undone the automatic archiving. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 19:34, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I do not think a compelling case for the application of sanctions has been presented. Athenean and Sulmues seem to be on opposite sides of multiple content disputes; I believe that passion from those disputes has led to exaggerated charges against Sulmues. Athenean calls this an "aggressively-worded, inane merger proposal" when in fact the proposal could not be construed reasonably as aggressively-worded. Similarly, this four-line comment is not a "talk page rant" by an average person's standard. Adding articles to a WikiProject's scope, particularly when a reasonable case can be made for their inclusion in said scope, is not really ], though posts like this do seem to indicate a battleground mentality (but not because of any sort of inflammatory tone). However, it is not Sulmues alone who is responsible for the battleground atmosphere; several editors on the "Greek side," including Athenean, need to tone it down and stop trying to prevent the "Albanian side" from editing. Both sides are at fault, and both sides need to collaborate and compromise.

The dispute associated with Pyrros Dimas is an excellent example. The basic question is whether Dimas's former Albanian citizenship should be mentioned in the lead, per WP:MOSBIO#Opening paragraph. Sulmues has made a reasonable case for including it on the grounds that Dimas first became notable under WP:ATHLETE as an Albanian citizen and competitor. However, the "Greek side" appears to be intent on avoiding mention of this in the lead – apparently solely because of this whole conflict between editors of Greek and Albanian nationalities.

This needs to stop. These are content disputes, so sanctions should not be levied to take one side out of commission, but because of the battleground mentalities on both sides, sanctions may later become necessary – for both sides. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 20:19, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Sulmues

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Shuki

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Shuki

User requesting enforcement

Nableezy 00:38, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Shuki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary_sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Shuki has repeatedly edit warred at a number of articles removing any mention of their either being in occupied territory or claiming that certain places, such as the Golan Heights is in Israel. Edit-warring to push an extreme minority view as fact and removing what countless high quality sources say. Examples:

• On Ohalo College, repeatedly add text saying that the college is in "Golan Heights, Israel" as well as removing what Shuki calls "POV cats", , ,
• On Herzog College quickly reverts multiple times removing that the college is in the Israeli-occupied territory, ,
• On Ariel University Center of Samaria repeatedly removing that it is in occupied territory , and later claiming that it is not "in Palestinian area" . Continues to remove any language that says this place is either outside of Israel or in the Palestinian territories (, , )
• On Katzrin repeatedly placing fringe minority terminology before standard terminology that Shuki even admits is more widely used in the sources and again removes any mention of it being in occupied territory ,

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Notification of ARBPIA sanctions

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Topic ban or revert restriction

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

There are many more examples, but the gist of the issue is Shuki's insistence on using minority viewpoints as gospel truth and rejecting the overwhelming majority of sources as either "anti-Israel" or "ignorant". nableezy - 00:38, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

To be clear, I am not here because Shuki favors a certain POV, but because of the repeated reverts of numerous users. On Ariel University Center of Samaria Shuki has reverted 4 different users 7 times within the span of a few days. Any attempt to include the super-majority view on where this place is located is summarily reverted. I had prepared this request prior to Shuki's request against me, so I dont see how it could be considered "revenge". I had planned to not file this after the dispute at Ohalo College died down, but Shuki continues with the same actions at the Ariel college page. Shuki is indeed a prolific editor, I am not arguing that. But when it comes to how certain incontrovertible facts are presented in the pages dealing with the occupied territories Shuki is unwilling to allow what the super-majority view of what the facts are to be presented as such, and repeatedly edit-wars to present an extreme minority view as fact. I dont think a topic ban is necessary, as Shuki does contribute a great deal of quality content to the topic area. But the mindless reverts should stop. nableezy - 18:16, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Re to Plot Spoiler: Yes it can be. The problem is that Shuki repeatedly reverts to impose the idea that these places are in Israel and refuses to accept anything that says that they are not. nableezy - 19:09, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Re Sandstein: I tried to make the request avoid the content as much as possible, the issue I raised was the edit-warring across multiple articles. See the history of Ariel University Center of Samaria where Shuki has reverted 7 times in a few days edits by 4 different users. See the history of Ohalo College where Shuki reverted 5 times in a few days. The fact is that Shuki is esit-warring to push fringe views on a range of articles, such as the Golan being in Israel, or that the West Bank is not Palestinian territory. I'm not looking to address the actual content here, but Shuki is obstructively edit-warring to prevent any mention of super-majority views. How many reverts per article would it take before this is "disruptive"? nableezy - 20:55, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Sandstein, I would appreciate a reply to my questions here. nableezy - 21:04, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

All right, here it is broken down by article with dates and diffs and all that good stuff

Ohalo College

1. 21:46, 31 March 2010 (edit summary: "Undid POV by Supreme Deliciousness")
2. 22:02, 31 March 2010 (edit summary: "Undid revision 353232485 by Supreme Deliciousness take this POV to a central discussion before slapping it anything")
3. 23:11, 31 March 2010 (edit summary: "tweak per other Golan pages by consensus")
4. 14:19, 2 April 2010 (edit summary: "college was established by Israel, is operated by Israel, and Israelis study there")

Ariel University Center of Samaria

1. 20:49, 31 March 2010 (edit summary: "Undid revision 353176427 by Supreme Deliciousness (talk) Ariel is in Area C - not occupied")
2. 21:46, 31 March 2010 (edit summary: "Undid revision 353225823 by Nableezy (talk) POV cat, again")
3. 20:47, 1 April 2010 (edit summary: "rv, not in Palestinian area")
4. 14:15, 2 April 2010 (edit summary: "Undid revision 353433188 by Peter cohen (talk) please use talk for this")
5. 21:40, 3 April 2010 (edit summary: "not a Palestinian institution")
6. 23:25, 3 April 2010 (edit summary: "Undid revision 353798873 by Nableezy (talk) not")
7. 00:25, 4 April 2010 (edit summary: "Undid revision 353812941 by Nableezy (talk) not a Palestinian institution")
8. 21:14, 6 April 2010 (edit summary: "Peter, I expect much more accuracy from you. The green line is not a border of Israel at all. And now we see how ridiculous these extra boilerplate qualifiers can get.")
9. 21:26, 6 April 2010 (edit summary: "rv, reinserting POV again")

nableezy - 22:07, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Shuki

Statement by Shuki

So Nableezy carries out his harassing threat, but it is stale. The Ohalo issue was frankly a misunderstanding later agreed on properly. Herzog College was to remove a disputed POV cat that is up for cfd. Ariel University is also a Nableezy POV issue to piss me off since he knows I follow that article and he has not added that cat to any other academic institution though he insists that he is right. He skirts his 1R and does not really bother to engage in mature discussion or consensus to occur. Katzrin is also POV. Katzrin is a town, Nableezy likes to deprecate that to the generic label 'Israeli settlement'. We have long since agreed not to edit the order of those terms (on all Israeli West Bank articles where the issue is about half/half) until a general project consensus on naming order (of municipal status or political term) can be achieved. This ain't anything to do about minority viewpoints at all but about some sort of lame revenge against me. --Shuki (talk) 08:03, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Shuki

I concur with Nableezy's assessment of Shuki's edits. In editing subjects related to the I-P conflict -- especially Israeli settlements -- I have found Shuki to be a particularly difficult editor to work with. He continually promotes a fringe pro-settlement point of view that is extreme even among the pro-Israel contingent. He is extremely obstinate and stubborn and often refuses to discuss issues or accept the consensus achieved in a discussion and will edit war at the drop of a hat. For example,

• Instead of taking an article to AFD to be deleted he repeatedly blanks pages (,).

• He removes the "Israeli-occupied territories" category from an article to which it clearly applies (,).

• He makes untrue claims regarding what a source says to justify the removal of material ().

• He uses a deletion discussion as a soapbox for his fringe, non-mainstream views (, ).

• He misuses the "citation needed" template in a paragraph that is already sufficiently cited ().

• He repeatedly removes a section in Israeli settlements about the highly notable topic of Illegal outposts - , , , ).

• He removes sourced, verifiable information ().

• He erroneously claims that legitimate spinoff articles are POV forks, never proving or giving any evidence of this - , , ,

• Removes relevant material and 4 separate citations from an article and then adds the "citation needed" tag to the remaining material ().

• Inappropriately uses the "citation needed" tag in the lede for information that is clearly provided in the body of the article ().

Factomancer (talk) 09:22, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Unomi (talk)

At the risk of 'piling on'.

• Accusations of taking advantage of a holiday, characterizes editing behavior as tag teaming, though rationales of the editors in question were presented at the locus of the dispute. ()
• Announces in ES that categories are up for deletion in a non neutral manner - The issue is POV since that user will surely not add that cat to all Arab/Muslim/ex-Syrian/Druze/non-Jewish companies. ()
• Reverts hatting of material that clearly should have been in a separate thread ().

The issues I have presented are fairly minor and I would not have sought action on them by themselves, but in the context of a wider discussion on the manner in which Shuki approaches editor interaction I thought them to have some relevance. Unomi (talk) 10:40, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

So you admit they are minor. Then why 'out' yourself as anti-Shuki? --Shuki (talk) 15:16, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Peter Cohen (talk)

In order to be consistent with what I have said in comment to the other threads, I suppose I've got to say that this should be dealt with as a general purge of tendentious, edit-warring and otherwise unproductive editors. However, I must say that I'm doing this through gritted teeth given how frustrated I am by Shuki's repeated suppression in multiple articles of the fact that the West Bank is internationally recognised occupied Palestinian territory.--Peter cohen (talk) 11:41, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Lumping me into the tendentious 'group of four' and calling me unproductive is absurdly ignorant. I have created and maintained more articles than Nableezy, factomancer, and Unomi combined. --Shuki (talk) 15:16, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Supreme Deliciousness (talk)

I would like to point out that Shuki has also removed the worldview and inserted the extreme minority Israeli POV at Derech Etz Chaim, that Golan is in Israel. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:04, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Plot Spoiler (talk)

There needs to be a more balanced way to deal with Israeli locales in "occupied territories" because this issue continually crops up. Mention of the fact that these universities or what have you are on such lands should be noted, but it's also clear that Nableezy and others spend significant time and effort highlighting this fact in a prominent fashion in order to poison the well on this issue, i.e. this university is in the Golan Heights = bad. Can it not be noted this this university is located in territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 War rather than this is a university in occupied territory? It's a bit of well poisoning, don't you think? When people speak of these universities, the most notable thing about them is not that they are located within "occupied territory." Plot Spoiler (talk) 19:05, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Gatoclass

Haven't looked at all these diffs, but wasn't a page started somewhere to try and resolve the nomenclature issues related to the occupied territories? If those issues have yet to be resolved, then I think it's time something was done to resolve them, because these same issues have been causing strife for a considerable time now and if nothing is done they are only likely to continue to generate problems. Gatoclass (talk) 15:11, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Shuki

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• Initial assessment: the issue of whether and how to address the territorial status of article subjects in their articles is a content issue that cannot be resolved through arbitration enforcement, but must be resolved through editor discussion (WP:DR). So please don't discuss this here. From what I see here, it does not appear as though there can be only one common solution to this issue that is compatible with relevant policies such as WP:NPOV; instead, editors might for instance choose to resolve this issue on a case by case basis. I'm saying this only to explain why we will not sanction an editor only because they hold a particular opinion about this, and act on that opinion by adding or removing certain categories and so on. What AE can address are conduct problems, including the problem of editors being unable to resolve their differences of opinion in a non-disruptive manner. In my view, this request (which lumps together nonactionable content disagreements and possibly actionable conduct problems) does not really provide enough evidence to convince me that we have an actionable conduct problem with Shuki in particular (not very many reverts per article, for instance), though I am open to be convinced otherwise. The request, however, might prove actionable in another respect, namely, in that it is — like the three(!) preceding requests — a symptom of there being a number of editors on both sides of the conflict who have recently been unable to work together productively and who might need to be topic-banned. It is impractical, however, to discuss this in the context of an individual request, and I invite fellow admins to join the newly launched wikiproject WP:WPAE, which is intended to provide a forum for such discussions.  Sandstein  20:12, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

• In reply to Nableezy, the only thing I see so far that's potentionally actionable is the edit-warring. Everything else is far too much a content dispute for me to adjudicate. But the evidence for edit warring is not usefully presented for easy evaluation. In situations such as this, where the edit history is complicated and the edit war is of the slow-moving type, I need to see a dated, numbered list of reverts per article, as is usual at WP:AN3.  Sandstein  21:36, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

TheDarkLordSeth

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning TheDarkLordSeth

User requesting enforcement

Sardur (talk) 15:25, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

TheDarkLordSeth (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Amended Remedies and Enforcement

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

9 reverts within 24 hours on Armenian Genocide:

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Not applicable, see the warning on top of Talk:Armenian Genocide

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

I trust admins as to the choice of the appropriate action.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Typical case of edit war of one user against very different others. Discussion on talk page after reverting, and repeating arguments already addressed on talk page (and its archives).

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning TheDarkLordSeth

Statement by TheDarkLordSeth

There are two words that are edited over and over again.

One of the is the claim word in the introduction. The sentence is as follows:

The Armenian Genocide (Armenian: Հայոց Ցեղասպանություն, translit.: Hayoc’ C’eġaspanowt’yown; Turkish: Ermeni Soykırımı) – also known as the Armenian Holocaust, the Armenian Massacres and, by Armenians, as the Great Calamity (Մեծ Եղեռն, Meç Eġeṙn, Armenian pronunciation: ) – refers to the deliberate and systematic destruction (genocide) of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire during and just after World War I.

The edited version:

The Armenian Genocide (Armenian: Հայոց Ցեղասպանություն, translit.: Hayoc’ C’eġaspanowt’yown; Turkish: Ermeni Soykırımı) – also known as the Armenian Holocaust, the Armenian Massacres and, by Armenians, as the Great Calamity (Մեծ Եղեռն, Meç Eġeṙn, Armenian pronunciation: ) – refers to the claims of deliberate and systematic destruction (genocide) of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire during and just after World War I.

There reason for adding the claim is due to a non-existence of equivocal voice from historians or scholars. You might be inclined to believe that all historians agree on the genocide claim yet there are many historians or scholars who have an expertise on Ottoman history believing otherwise. Of course they're not-Turkish. I'm not counting any Turkish historians for the sake of the discussion. I have listed such a list of 17 scholars who are one of the leading voices. For the sake of neutrality, the article needs to mention it as a claim as there is no verdict or equivocal voice from historians on the subject. So to me it's the members who kept reverting this "claim" word edit over and over again that are causing an edit war. I have stated my reasons in the discussion page before reverting. The argument against the revert was that adding the word "claim" denies the genocide and that it has no place in the article. Obviously, this is not true.

The second revert is the change of word "Armenian" to "Western" by an other member. It's only Armenian sources that puts the numbers at 1.5 million deaths. Yes, many articles from West do utilize this number but if you check the French, British or American sources the number never exceeds 1.2 million. I will put a source for the numbers when I can find the link again. Added to that it should be noted that the reference that comes right after the claim that Western sources put it at 1.5 million, is an article from BBC. From the article:

"Armenia says Ottoman Turks killed 1.5 million people systematically in 1915 - a claim strongly denied by Turkey."

It's clear that the article referenced for the claim that Western sources put the number of deaths at 1.5 million is incorrect. I have explained this on the talk page but of course it was ignored.

As I do not know how everything works in Wiki I did not report those users that were constantly reverting without discussing it on the discussion page. I have referred to the discussion page multiple times only to be ignored. So I request the same request that is done here against me for those members also. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 15:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning TheDarkLordSeth

Result concerning TheDarkLordSeth

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

I've notified the editor of ArbCom restrictions, which restricts him to 1RR/week from now on. I'm not sure if stronger measures are required at this stage. PhilKnight (talk) 16:15, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I think the restriction is enough for now. I was all set to block him as well, but I see he hasn't been warned about 3RR (even though 9 reverts is ridiculous). Given that you've placed him under restrictions, I think that should be enough - if he chooses to break the strong restrictions, he can be blocked for that. Ryan Postlethwaite 16:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

So you're punishing me for reverting constant reverts by multiple members? How retarded can that be? TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 19:11, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

You revert 9 times in one day - far more than the 3 reverts that are usually allowed - You're lucky you're not blocked so I'd take the restriction if I was you. Cut out the attacks as well. Ryan Postlethwaite 19:20, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

So I cannot revert a revert that the user does not discuss on the discussion page even when told so? And also just because the Armenians have flood this article they can revert as much as they want. I reverted the revert, discussed it in the discussion page. Gave explicit reasons for why it should be. Gave my sources and they simply reverted again without any argument. And you guys punish me for it. Good job. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 19:32, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

"And also just because the Armenians have flood this article they can revert as much as they want.": I'm not Armenian and several of the other users are not either - in any case, that nationalistic and personal attack should be taken into account. Sardur (talk) 21:26, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Majority of them are Armanians and I bet the rest is Greek. They, you, come with a grain of bias. You guys revert anything that doesn't agree with your own agenda. Simple as that. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 22:00, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not Greek either. Another nationalistic and personal attack. Sardur (talk) 22:02, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

• Blocked for 31 hours by Tim Song. PhilKnight (talk) 23:30, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Sigh...I was acting on a related AN3 report and didn't realize that there's an AE thread as well. If there's agreement that an AE block is not appropriate, consider it a standard edit-warring block. It should not take a genius to realize that 9 reverts on an article subject to 1RR is blockable. The 1RR is prominently advertised on the talk page, which the user has edited. Tim Song (talk) 23:36, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

He's broken his civility supervision restriction ((see his talk page) several times, I almost blocked him last night for this 19:32 post above. Dougweller (talk) 05:26, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

• Propose topic ban for the user. I see clear evidence of treating Misplaced Pages as a battleground. And no, before you ask Seth, I am not Greek or Armenian. NW (Talk) 23:42, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

  I'm inclined to give him another chance. It may be fruitless, but at least we will be certain. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 12:59, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

  Never mind. I tried to reach out and explain, but his lengthy response was all excuses and exceptions - why his ethic comments weren't objectionable, why his 3RR violation wasn't actionable, and why his use of the word "retarded" was justified. Do whatever you find necessary. I support any measures taken. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 15:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

  Now with an accusation that I am a liar, as well as a truly juvenile trollish attempt to bait me User exhibits no interest in learning The Rules here, but rather has misread Misplaced Pages as either a battleground or a flame forum. I'm done with this one. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 15:25, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

• No objection to a topic ban in view of .  Sandstein  16:47, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
• Agree with topic ban, per Sandstein and KillerChihuahua. Enough is enough. Tim Song (talk) 16:50, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Countries of the United Kingdom

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by RolandR

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

RolandR (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – RolandR (talk) 16:52, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Prohibited from using image Commons:File:No Israel.svg or substantially similar ones (i.e., crossed-out flags of countries involved in the Israeli-Arab conflict) in my user space, imposed at User_talk:RolandR#Your_user_page and logged at ARBPIA sanctions log.

Administrator imposing the sanction

Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Statement by RolandR

I do not believe that this action falls within the scope of the relevant sanctions. The image was not, despite assertions by the banning admin, directed against Israelis or any other people; but against an ideology and political ideology. It was in use because the same admin previously deleted a similar image, explicitly described as anti-Zionist rather than anti-Israel. Similar images are commonly used by Jews opposed to Zionism and the state of Israel, such as at the home page of Neturei Karta . There had been no complaints about the use of this image, and its removal was only demanded after the admin visited my user page after another editor complained aboout a personal attack on me by a third editor. Other editors are not prohibited from using this or other similar inages, it was not disruptive or offensive, and I believe that this ban is uncalled-for, and outside the scope of ARBPIA sanctions. Incidentally, I believe that the use of these sanctions by the admin to justify removal of the original image from Wiki Commons was entirely outside the scope of these sanctions, which apply only to Misplaced Pages.

Statement by Sandstein

This restriction concerns two images (Commons:File:Azflag.jpg, Commons:File:No Israel.svg) depicting a struck-through Israeli flag that were (in succession) displayed inside a userbox on RolandR's user page which says "This user is an anti-Zionist." I was alerted to that image through a complaint made to me concerning a comment by another user (topicbanned by me) in conflict with RolandR concerning that user page. The deletion of the first image (which was unused anywhere but in that userbox) occurred in application of Commons deletion policy and is now subject to a Commons undeletion discussion; it has no bearing on this appeal.

For the reasons explained in more detail on RolandR's talk page, it appears self-evident to me that users should not use images to decorate their userpages which vilify, reject, deny the legitimacy or right to existence of one side of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, both in the light of WP:UP#POLEMIC and especially WP:ARBPIA#Principles: "Use of the site for other purposes, such as advocacy or propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, publishing or promoting original research, and political or ideological struggle, is prohibited." Accordingly, I recommend that the Community decline this appeal.

Reply to Tim Song

Not to my knowledge.  Sandstein  18:45, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Malik Shabazz

Well, because I am not on a warpath on anything. I've come across this one problem in the course of my admin work and reacted accordingly. As a rule, I don't go out looking for AE issues because... well, look at my talk page, there are already more than enough issues coming to me. If there is similarly problematic content on other user pages, as I assume there is, please bring it to admin attention at WP:AE if the user in question does not agree to remove it.  Sandstein  18:45, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

General comment concerning the issue of scope

In view of the comment by Revaluation I have re-read the applicable remedies. I have found that there is indeed room for discussion. WP:ARBPIA#Area of conflict defines the area of conflict as "the entire set of Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles, broadly interpreted", emphasis mine. WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions allows discretionary sanctions on users "working in the area of conflict". One way of interpreting these provisions would be that they limit the scope of incidents that can give rise to discretionary sanctions to topic-related disruption in article space, thereby excluding user space (as in this case) but also talk and project space. Another way of looking at it would be that these provisions allow discretionary sanctions for all topic-related disruption in any namespace by any editor who is working on articles in the area of conflict. I believe that this interpretation, which would allow the sanction at issue here, is more plausible, in part because the remedy lists "bans from editing any page or set of pages" (and not just "articles") among the possible remedies. I'd appreciate the opinions of others on this issue, though; if they agree that the scope should be construed more conservatively I'll revoke the sanction or possibly request ArbCom clarification.  Sandstein  16:01, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Malik Shabazz

Sandstein, you say "users should not use images to decorate their userpages which vilify, reject, deny the legitimacy or right to existence of one side of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict". Why limit that statement to images? More than a few users have userboxes with text that vilifies, rejects, denies etc. Why aren't you on the warpath against those userboxes? — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 18:23, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 20:00, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Gilisa

I think that the link to RolandR TP, provided by Sandstein, explain much of it. Any version of an intentionly provocative image of a country flag crossed with red line is unavoidably and unnecessarily offensive and I agree that it shouldn't be on one UP _{(espcially and specifically when most of his edits are directly related to that country)}.--Gilisa (talk) 18:36, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Reply to ZScarpia: In short, it doesn't. Infact, Sandstein allowed RolandR to have "anti Zionist" box on his UP, and no one seem to object to that. The problem is with the image. Lets say that I'm against Bullfighting (and I'm)-would it be ok if I have an image of Spain flag striked in X!? You see, editors from all over the world and from all different backgrounds participating in the English wikipedia project-that's one reason, among many, for why we shouldn't have this kind of images. The other one is that in the problematic I-P topic wikipedia earn nothing from it, at best. The admin who declined Nableezy request to restore the image after Sandstein deleted it, explained it well. P.s. The EU is a political and economical regional union, not a country-objecting to it is like objecting the UN or to the Quartet-the comparison you made is oversimplifing

--Gilisa (talk) 20:17, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Second reply to ZScarpia: Your view that Zionism is nationalism is an ideological view by itself. But for the matter of this discussion, even if it was, and even if Zionists use Israel flag to express their ideology, it still doesn't justify vilification of people by defacing their country flag. There are Russian nationalist who identify with very much of the Nazi ideology-they many times use Russia flag as their symbol, and yet, if one oppose them he's not allowed to deface the Russian flag. If you support the independence of Catalonia you are allowed to use its flag but not to deface Spain flag, and vice versa. The admin who declined the restore request refered to the negative nature of this kind of images. --Gilisa (talk) 19:00, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by ZScarpia

RolandR's original user box looked like was a negated version of the This User is a Zionist one, with a cross over the flag on the left-hand side and the word not added to the text. The text made it clear that the image represented opposition to Zionism. I think it was unreasonable to interpret it, as Sandstein said, as an attack on the Israeli people. On the page containing a collection of Polics by Country userboxes, the European Union flag appears defaced several times. Obviously it would be unreasonable to interpret those userboxes as attacks on EU citizens or countries rather than opposition to the EU or EU membership. The symbol of the Chinese Communist Party also appears defaced several times. Similarly, it would be unreasonable to interpret those userboxes as attacks on a group of people rather than an institution or ideology. Generally, I think that Sandstein makes good decisions. There has, though, been a couple of times, in my opinion, when he has made very bad ones, including one very biased one which the user was, unfortunately, too busy to contest. Here, I think he has been unnecessarily high-handed and confrontational.     ←   ZScarpia   19:51, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Gilisa

The request to restore the deleted image was turned down on the grounds that the responding administrator didn't feel that userpages should be being used to express ideological beliefs. I agree with the administrator's feelings about userpages, but, in the meantime, I think that, if there is to be deleting of users' images and instructions given about what may be shown, it should be done using sound reasoning, consistently, impartially and unofficiously. One of the remarkable things about Misplaced Pages is that it can require editors who detest each other's views to work together civilly. Doing that requires give from each other; the expression of reprehensible opinions may have to be tolerated. In the scale of tolerability, a small image of a defaced national flag is pretty minor. If supporters of nationalistic political ideologies want to use national flags as symbols in userboxes displaying their allegiance, I think they should live with their opponents using defaced versions of those flags as symbols of their opposition.     ←   ZScarpia   16:43, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Mbz1

• According to WP:UPNO "Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox" is usually interpreted as applying to user space "

According to WP:NOTSOAPBOX "... Therefore, content hosted in Misplaced Pages is not for:

1... propaganda, or recruitment of any kind: commercial, political, religious, or otherwise....

2.Opinion pieces. Although some topics, particularly those concerning current affairs and politics, may stir passions and tempt people to "climb soapboxes" (i.e. passionately advocate their pet point of view), Misplaced Pages is not the medium for this. Articles must be balanced to put entries, especially for current events, in a reasonable perspective, and represent a neutral point of view. "

• According to WP:UPNO "Generally, you should avoid substantial content on your user page that is unrelated to Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is not a general hosting service, so your user page is not a personal website. Your user page is about you as a Wikipedian, and pages in your user space should be used as part of your efforts to contribute to the project."

• According to WP:UPNO "Extremely offensive material may be removed on sight by any editor."

• The deleted images are propaganda, opinion pieces about current events; they do not represent neutral point of view;
• The deletion of the images was appropriate and was done in the full accordance with few Misplaced Pages policies. --Mbz1 (talk) 00:14, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Zero0000

I see several problems with Sandstein's action. One is that the arbitration decision he/she is relying on does not (I think) mention user-space but is everywhere concerned with the behavior of editors in article space. So it is somewhat of a stretch to apply it to user-space; I think a request for clarification on that would be in order. Moreover, he/she relies on the "Principles" section of the decision, not the "Remedies" section. Since the Principles listed here are general principles that don't even mention the I/P domain, I don't think that arguing an application of the Principles is sufficient to be able to claim that the arbitration decision is being enforced. As far as I know, enforcing an arbitration decision means enforcing the Remedies specified by the decision. The other page cited by Sandstein, WP:UP is a guideline rather than a policy. In summary, the legal basis for Sandstein's action is very shaky.

Regarding user-boxes, I don't like them and never used one myself but very many users declare their political opinions in this manner. Most of these opinions are likely to "offend" someone with contrary opinions. I don't see how the one Sandstein objected to is worse than many others, and strong interpretations like that it denies Israeli people the right to exist are just political counter-rhetoric. The right way to tackle the issue of political userboxes would be to open a general discussion on them and develop a community consensus. I don't think it is reasonable to specifically sanction one user on an ad hoc basis. Zero 00:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by RolandR

• Not commenting on the userspace policies, but this seems to be an expansion in both the letter and the spirit of the sanctions put in place. Administrators enforcing arbitration sanctions should be more careful in the future not to stretch existing sanctions and enforce them under a process with a limited mode of appeal. Revaluation (talk) 13:04, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by RolandR

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Is there precedent for applying discretionary sanctions to what appears to me to be a purely userspace matter? Tim Song (talk) 17:30, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Tons, but I don't have links handy. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 16:07, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

• Decline request. If you wish to vilify or disparage views other than your own, there is an entire Internet out there, with free homepages and blogspace abounding. Do not mistake Misplaced Pages allowing you space to identify yourself, with you having rights over "your" user page. Your desired images will serve no purpose in creating or improving an online encyclopedia, and therefore you have no rationale for your request that will hold any weight here. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 16:07, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
• I'm of the view that talk space and project space discussions - and even some userspace discussions - are so inextricably intertwined with article space editing that they should be considered to be within the scope of discretionary sanctions. In the absence of precedent or further clarification from arbcom, however, I do not think a purely userspace matter, entirely disconnected from article space, is within the scope of discretionary sanctions. Tim Song (talk) 17:00, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

  Regardless, Sandstein was covered by multiple policies - see Mbz1's post, above - and if we view this solely as ArbCom enforcement, you may have a point; but if you view this as a request to have Sandstein's actions overturned, which it is, matters complicate. I'm for IAR and close this, and advise Sandstien to cite every policy applicable when he takes such action in the future, to head off malcontents arguing to keep their divisive userspace clutter. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 18:41, 8 April 2010 (UTC)