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Misplaced Pages talk:Meetup/Chicago 3.1

You participated in the discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Meetup/Chicago 3. I thought you might want to sign up for Misplaced Pages talk:Meetup/Chicago 3.1 from 10:30-11:45 a.m. on Saturday May 1, 2010 at the UIC Student Center West.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:38, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Re: Carnival Masks

The Nelson material (Kubrick, Inside a Film Artists Maze) cited in the new section explicitly states "Venetian carnival masks".
However, this is more an assertion about origin and usage ancient and modern that is not consistent.
Venetian masks have their ultimate origin in the Carnival of Venice which generally runs about two weeks prior to Ash Wednesday, though they are often worn at other times of the year. A few centuries later such masks became prevalent in performances of "Commedia Dell'arte". A few more centuries after that there was a precipitous decline in the celebration of the Venetian Carnival and the association of that style of mask with the Carnival season was somewhat severed. The Carnival event came back with a vengeance after it having been banned by Mussolini whose regime was toppled by the Allies in WW2.
The term "Venetian mask" and "Venetian carnival mask" are sometimes used synonymously because of their original source and restored current usage. (Books on Italian painters virtually always refer to "Venetian carnival masks".
However, as mentioned the Nelson material already cited in the new section does indeed say "Venetian carnival masks"--WickerGuy (talk) 20:26, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The feathered masks are one of many varieties of Venetian carnival masks. One is a subspecies of the other. If you need a citation, see this. But, effectively this is like writing about The Lion King, and stating we can say the the animals in the film generally are indigenous to Africa but we cannot say specifically that the hyenas are indigenous to Africa. WickerGuy (talk) 22:11, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The Nelson citation I gave earlier identifying the party masks generally as "Venetian carnival masks" does not in any way exclude the feathered masks worn by the women. You however want to possibly exclude them because they are feathered, and thus that raise questions for you as to whether Nelson's general description of the party masks overall includes the feathered ones or not. If you really need that citation, the same website with Venetian feathered masks also has overtly providing the carnival as the historical context of Venetian masks generally and specifically this link of theirs states it is a display of carnival masks and has a picture of a feathered one, one of which (the Volto) is like that worn by the women (and is specifically identified as being a mask from Eyes Wide Shut.)

Nonetheless since Nelson said nothing to exclude the feathered masks, I am unconvinced that the burden of proof lies with me!! Dolphins are mammals though aquatic (though all mammals nurse their young by definition), and ostriches and penguins are birds although they cannot fly (though all birds by definition have wings and lay eggs and are bipedal). It is well-known that certain classes of objects have a certain trait over 90% of the time but not always.WickerGuy (talk) 23:40, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

In your rebuttal you state 'The Nelson citation indeed identifies the masks as "Venetian masks"'. The Nelson citation at one point very specifically says "Venetian carnival masks" (page 322 in footnotes but not p. 289 if that's where you are looking)- also Nelson on p. 289 notes that Red Cloak plays simultaneously the "dual role of King of Carnival and Grand Inquisitor". You want to make a special exception for feathered ones. You haven't searched Nelson carefully enough. You didn't actually misquote him, since I assume you only looked on p. 289, but you certainly didn't review the citation with very much care!!!!

As for the mask shop, Citation 3 possibly should have been which has a mask with feathers identified as being in EWS and is categorized quite specifically as a "carnival mask". A reasonably reputable Venetian store's identification of a feathered mask as "carnival" should be sufficient whether or not EWS is being used as a marketing device or not. You are also entirely mistaken about "Phantom of the Opera". The mask in my earlier (uncorrected) citation 3 listed as the "Phantom" mask is identical to the one Gerard Butler wore in the film!!!! (But since the novel vastly predates the film or play, I don't even see why they are obligated to be the same.)

This is your very first rebuttal to me that contains two factual errors and one poor piece of reasoning. You didn't really search Nelson carefully, your observation about the Phantom mask is just wrong, and also irrelevant since the novel of Phantom preceded the musical by many decades. I'm having an increasingly difficult time taking this at all seriously.--WickerGuy (talk) 04:02, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Emily Dickinson said "Hope is a thing with feathers". Hope this works.

http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-11464507/stock-photo-venetian-carnival-mask.html --WickerGuy (talk) 10:02, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Side notes. The Venetian mask shop has two pages with a phantom mask. In one (the main page)it is white (the one I was looking at), the other is the same shape but is gold (the one you were looking at). Neither fits the description in Leroux' novel which overtly says it covers the whole face and gives no color. However, it is unlikely to be a self-serving marketing gimmick to state overtly that a specifically feathered mask is "carnival", which is the main point.

See also this travel guide and it's photo illustrating Venetian carnival --WickerGuy (talk) 15:58, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I just checked the movie and the only ONE of the gal's masks has feathers. A few others don't have real feathers but sculpted ones. Obviously "feathered" needs to be deleted!!!

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skhpP7DqWK0 minute 3:14. It is evident only one mask has real and two more have sculpted ones.

The last image I gave you was not from a vendor but a travel guide to Venice, and the third to last image I gave you was from a photography place showing photoes of masks, but not actually selling masks.

You keep missing three of basic points.

a) Generally all Venetian masks can be called "carnival" masks because of their historic associations, and this is well-documented.

b) Nelson identifies the masks at the party generally as "Venetian carnival masks" (in the Back Matter footnote) (and also identifies the character of Red Cloak as combining the roles of Inquisitor and "King of Carnival".)

c) You seem to want to make some special exception for the women's masks because they have feathers. (And now I check only ONE has feathers!!!!!!!!) But Venetian masks come in wide diversity of styles (with specific names such as Moretta or Medico Della Peste) some of which may or may not have feathers. (Feathers are more often on female masks especially the Columbine, which might what they are wearing except C doesn't usually cover the lips.) Why on earth are you picking out the feathered masks (now I realized only one feathered mask) as a possible exception to Nelson's general declaration that the masks at the party are Venetian carnival masks ??????

The policy on original research precludes novel synthesis to advance a position. I am not doing anything novel nor am I advancing an opinion!!

If you don't reply directly to these points, I am going to insist on appealing to a third party as an arbitrator.--WickerGuy (talk) 20:25, 8 April 2010 (UTC)