Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:38, 16 April 2010

Messages

Please put messages at foot. I will delete them when I have read them. If you are replying to a message I left I don't mind where you reply but try to keep conversations together. If you are offering to help with the Schools DVD I would be very glad to hear from you. There is loads to do at present and we are working through the new subject index:

Art Business Studies Citizenship Countries Design and Technology Everyday life Geography History IT Language and literature Mathematics Music People Religion Science

The new selection of articles is about two weeks away. We are still hand checking version numbers (yawn) and still aiming for about 5500 articles to fit on a DVD. Just to update the selection of articles has just moved off wiki to allow a quicker automated run but it will come back. --BozMo talk 06:58, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Barnstars

Thank you for the appreciation which I have moved off as they clutter the page. --BozMo talk 18:35, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Question

Can you defend this edit from an experienced editor on any good faith grounds? ATren (talk) 03:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Why would I want to defend it? --BozMo talk 06:55, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Been looking around (briefly) to try to find obvious contradiction to it though and there is a certain accuracy. Not encyclopaedic though--BozMo talk 07:03, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Right, not encyclopedic, blatantly POV, unsourced, and he did it twice. This is inexcusable for an experienced user, it's disruption, plain and simple. Of course, you do realize that edit triggered the uproar which you are blaming MN for, right? MN's response was misguided but it was not the root cause of the disruption. So if you are suggesting a long term ban for reacting to disruption, why are you not suggesting a similar ban for the original disruption? Especially given that the original disruption happened in article space where such edits really are potentially destructive, whereas the reactions occurred on talk pages and noticeboards -- why does the latter deserve a topic ban and the former gets (another) pass?

And let's examine the reaction: (1) He posted a vandalism warning -- really, how far is that edit from vandalism? It's not vandalism by the letter, perhaps, but it is highly suspect in that someone as intelligent and experienced as WMC could have believed that was a good edit. So was it vandalism? No. Could a relatively inexperienced user misinterpret it as such? Perhaps. (2) After some bickering, WMC brought it to the probation talk page. MN responded. Lar asked for diffs. MN provided them. Then WMC accused him of making a "backdoor request" and repeatedly (falsely) asserted that Lar never asked for diffs. Even if you want to call that a backdoor request, I still don't believe a good faith reading of this sequence rises to the level of disruption of the original edit. (3) MN raises a COI/N request against WMC. This was ill-advised, but WMC was adding suspect edits to an article about a book which mentioned him. Is this not a potential COI issue? KC closed that request and accused MN of "forum shopping", which apparently relies on WMC's (false) interpretation of (2) being a "backdoor request".

In addition to all this, MN had a formal ban from filing "compliants" against WMC, but I personally believed that this applied to the enforcement page only, and I think MN had the same belief when he went to COI/N (indeed, maybe the enforcement page only was Geni's intent in the first place, perhaps someone should ask them for clarification?).

So, in summary, what we have here is a series of poor decisions by MN, but they were not the root cause of the dispute, and his reactions can all be reasonably classified as bad decisions made in good faith. But the root cause was a disruptive edit in article space (twice) for which I cannot conceive a good faith reading.

In any case, if you are going to sanction, shouldn't both the original disruption and the reaction be sanctioned equally? Or, if you are going to sanction one side and not the other, what argument can be made that it should be only MN and not WMC, based on the analysis I've presented above? Implicit in this is, how can that original edit by WMC be read as a good faith action from someone as experienced and intelligent as WMC? ATren (talk) 14:55, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Singer Reverts

Bozmo, I thank you for the warning, and I'm going to take your advice regardless. However, I would like a little clarification on what you consider 'edit warring'. In this case, an editor reverted a claim, saying the source was non:RS. I started a discussion on the talk page, pointing out the source was not a blog, and further, that it linked directly to the original Newsweek article. Editor reverted again, suggesting the original source should be Newsweek. So I complied. End of that issue.

Another editor then changed the well-sourced direct quote of Samuelson's title (contributing editor) to his own interpretation of that title. (freelance columnist). I made one reverts on this issue, both times explaining my reasoning on talk, then left it alone.

I don't see how I've come close to even violating 2RR here, much less the spirit of 3RR. Further, since this is a BLP, I thought the standard for scurrilous, fringe allegations was somewhat higher. The article is clearly a COATRACK, designed to discredit a scientist with a lengthy and varied career, by giving undue weight to one small aspect of that career, and the editors in question have a lengthy history of making similar edits to any and all biographies of similar individuals. FellGleaming (talk) 13:31, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

and are easily two R. is a third William M. Connolley (talk) 16:45, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Your reasoing is fallacious. The second edit was a direct response to your request to insert the original Newsweek source. The third edit dealt with another issue entirely; it wasn't reinserting the Samuelson article, but correcting his title to the official one given him at Newsweek. FellGleaming (talk) 17:06, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry!

My apologies for this - I can only assume I clicked rollback by mistake, unless there's a bug somewhere. I'll keep an eye out and see if it happens again. —  Tivedshambo  (t/c) 18:30, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Ta

William M. Connolley (talk) 14:21, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

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Clarification Request

Bozmo, two years ago I was a new Misplaced Pages editor, with only a couple dozen edits under my belt. In April 2008, I reverted an edit of WMC's using the word vandalism. When he complained, I explained my reasoning on his talk page, again using the word. For that alone, you chose to give me a full edit block....within 15 minutes of my posting the statement. No warning from you or anyone else noninvolved, no attempt to explain -- just the block for "personal attacks". This, despite the fact that WMC had already been sanctioned for edit warring within that same article.

I didn't question your decision then. I accepted it, believing that the rules would at least be applied consistently and honestly, to protect all users. Yet recently, where a editor -- an experienced one, at that -- brought a ground action against me, using far stronger language than I have ever considered, you chose to do nothing. This, despite his personal attacks not only on me, but two other editors who choose to support my position, going so far as to accuse one of sock puppetry in my defense.

And today, when an action in brought against WMC -- the person for whom you originally banned me for "personal attacks" -- you immediately move for "speedy close", before even anyone else can comment on the issue. This, despite the fact that WMC is already on probation for making personal attacks, and on a daily basis, breaches that probation.

Can you please explain why some editors are allowed such wide latitude to make personal attacks and breach civility? Doesn't policy work better if its evenly applied? Fell Gleaming 14:54, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

First, perhaps I am in the wrong. But let me explain a bit. (1) ref my block of you a couple of years ago, I do not block many people. I do not recall the block but form the logs you did not at the time look like a new editor (you had at least a hundred edits and you were fluently citing policies like Coat Rack which is not really a newbie trait). You got blocked by someone else within 48 hours and I think were being, well, a little bit of a hot-head. (2) ref WMC. WMC contributes considerably to overall Misplaced Pages content but has some behavioural issues. I do not personally think he has a POV issue (personally, I think Kim for example is much more consistently from a single viewpoint) but he does tend to be a bit rude about sceptics on BLPs. I have defended his behaviour several times in the past (and perhaps sometimes lived to regret it) partly because the terseness often goes together with an accuracy which I respect). I do not however admire his behaviour and I am not opposed to attempts to modify it. (3) On this occasion though, in a slightly patronising or snarky way admittedly, I think that WMC was actually trying to help MN to do a proper RFC. I kind of see the overall constructiveness of that side of things something we should encourage and it was a shame Mark took it the wrong way. Dragging behaviour through the probation on this occasion seems to me to be counterproductive this time. I do not systematically defend WMCs behaviour but this time even Cla88 and others were basically seeing MN as in the wrong. Fine for people to be in the wrong sometimes. Best if we can regard that as ok and move on. Sorry if I seem terribly biased about people. Over time I form opinions from the quality of people's edits. That does effect my judgements. --BozMo talk 16:36, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply Bozmo. "You were...being, well, a little bit of a hot-head." Yes I was. But I was a new user, and not being nearly as much as a hothead as a far more experienced editor (Hipocrite) was...who you recommended receive no sanction whatsoever. Nnote that since then, today alone, that same editor has three times accused me of intentional disruption and bad faith. If I brought an action, would I receive fair protection from these attacks? I believe the result would be identical to the first instance -- no action whatosever.

Regarding WMC's edits, if you look at the BLPs of any skeptics, I think you may revise your opinion. I'm slowly working my way through them and, given I am usually working with several editors against me, the fact that the majority of my changes are sticking indicates real problems. WMC, however, applies his single revert a day to each article I touch, restoring highly prejudicial material.

Finally, I want to reiterate my earlier block is irrelevant, except in this context. When editors perceived to be on one side of an issue are continually allowed to flaunt one of the pillars of Misplaced Pages (civility), whereas editors perceived to be on the other side receive strident enforcement, ultimately that discourages open, honest debate over the content. Editors get discouraged, eventually leave, and the articles wind up expressing a particular POV, rather than balanced, neutral content. Eventually that reflects badly upon us all. Fell Gleaming 16:50, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

WP would undoubtedly be improved if better quality more sceptical editors on GW could be persuaded to stick around. I have defended MN quite a few times for that reason. FWIW I am also pretty sympathetic to your BLP complaints about Singer which I think seem well founded. But I don't have enough time to go through all the references to be sure yet, we will get there. I have also taken out quite a few inappropriate comments from BLPs over the last six months. What you say on HC may be true but I don't see many of his edits and my reaction to him being brought to the probation page is limited to the diffs provided. --BozMo talk 17:16, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

You think i have quality? meep :-). Well I am slowly improving I believe, I hope your faith in me will eventually be justified mark nutley (talk) 17:21, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Proposed close

Thanks for the proposed close - it is about time that someone did.

However, I object to the terms. MN is on civility parole, he was repeatedly told by numerous respected editors that the vandalism accusations were unjustified, and he has refused to remove them (they are still present). Unless an accusation of vandalism is somehow considered trivial, I think you are in error. A very bare minimum would require MN to remove / strike the accusations, although I would consider that very weak indeed and tending to trivialise the process. He should be blocked for incivility.

William M. Connolley (talk) 09:54, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Already done that mark nutley (talk) 11:57, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

No, you mean you did it only after reading this, and in a graceless way with no apology. However, I note that when I was previously blocked for a comment change by LHVU, the fact that I'd undone the change well before the block was not considered any mitigation, and I'm sure you wouldn't want the enforecement to be inconsistent William M. Connolley (talk) 12:13, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Mark. @WMC I do not recall using the term trivial, but perhaps I did. I agree that Mark should not use terms like vandal as lightly as he does (and disruptive is only marginally better). However I am also given to reflection on the these although your preferred analogy is Parliamentary language. You do tend to play roughly but by the rules (almost all the time) but you are dealing with people less expert in the rules than you, and they may not recognise that you are in fact being a bit constrained. You yourself are both experienced enough not to be personally wounded by misguided contributions and also pretty blunt in your own way. When you are dealing with people who cannot tell what is above and below the belt (according to local custom) I am inclined to say you cannot be precious and should help them to improve their conduct to which end blunt accusation may not be the most effective way. Excuse me now while I go and hug something and grow my hair long. Peace, man. --BozMo talk 12:16, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

WMC, yes you are correct because you wrote A very bare minimum would require MN to remove / strike the accusations so i did it, sorry you feel it was graceless, i am unsure how to strike a comment gracefully. But i am sorry i called you a vandal, I have read up on wp:vandal and realize what you did was not vandalism. mark nutley (talk) 12:29, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I see you've noted MN's retraction. I see you've failed to note However, I note that when I was previously blocked for a comment change by LHVU, the fact that I'd undone the change well before the block was not considered any mitigation. Do you see how a reasonable person might consider this to be asymmetrical treatment? William M. Connolley (talk) 15:07, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

If you're advocating an end to unequal treatment, William, I can only offer the advice, "be careful what you wish for; you may get it". Fell Gleaming 15:13, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

At any rate I try to be consistent with my understanding of the rules and my previous admin behaviour. Expecting me to be consistent with precedent set by other admins is too much I am afraid. --BozMo talk 15:29, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks...

. I finally managed to mostly sort "lose" and "loose", and "to" and "too" ("working from 5 to 9 is too much, it may cause you to lose your mind so that you become a looser"), but some things remain elusive... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:40, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Pleasure, and you are probably better at spelling than me anyway. As it happens I am crap at spelling (my 8 year old daughter out-spells me) especially on a keyboard but I know some other people don't like being corrected. I was what would now be called bilateral dyslexic at school, and still have problems with various words. Permanent versus Permenant for example: know a good rhyme for that one? --BozMo talk 13:58, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Some advice

Star Trek: The Next Generation: Birth of the Federation on this article, a new user keeps inserting false information and is removing other information to put his own website into the article. I have started a talk page discussion but i suspect it will be ignored. I have also posted on the users website forums about them accusing someone of plagerisim on their front page. Funnily enough they are now accusing me of mesh theft as well :) mark nutley (talk) 16:46, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, that account isn't going to succeed. Probably they will come back, add some actual contribution and try again. Meantime blatant SPA promoting a website, making no other contribution and multiple reverting is not a difficult decision: indef block. --BozMo talk 17:13, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks mate, another question. If a guy is calling a well know modder a thief, is that a blp thing? In the modding community we take such things very seriously. But i am unsure how that would work here mark nutley (talk) 17:34, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

No problem. Probably I will get accusations of Third Reich membership all over my talk page by nightfall, but one comes to expect it. Anyway accusation of breaking the law would always be a serious matter in law and on Misplaced Pages. Other forms of "legal theft" are probably serious but less categorically so if supported by reliable sources. --BozMo talk 17:38, 16 April 2010 (UTC)