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As I see it, the point of the sanction was to deny TGL the use of Misplaced Pages as a ], so that other editors are not forced to either let his wrong claims stand or spend the time to refute them. I don't see how this purpose is served by allowing him to soapbox on certain user talk pages, whether the user in question accepts this or not. While we grant some leeway to users on their user and talk pages, these are still project pages, and not under control of the user. --] (]) 12:49, 3 May 2010 (UTC) | As I see it, the point of the sanction was to deny TGL the use of Misplaced Pages as a ], so that other editors are not forced to either let his wrong claims stand or spend the time to refute them. I don't see how this purpose is served by allowing him to soapbox on certain user talk pages, whether the user in question accepts this or not. While we grant some leeway to users on their user and talk pages, these are still project pages, and not under control of the user. --] (]) 12:49, 3 May 2010 (UTC) | ||
::::Lar and Bozmo should follow LHvU and recuse themselves. Their involvement runs the risk of this being thrown out, which I think it should be. ] (]) 15:24, 3 May 2010 (UTC) | ::::Lar and Bozmo should follow LHvU and recuse themselves. Their involvement runs the risk of this being thrown out, which I think it should be. ] (]) 15:24, 3 May 2010 (UTC) | ||
:::::Also ] states "bans from editing the climate change pages and/or closely related topics" Lar's talkpage is not a closely related topic so if this ban applies to Lar's talkpage it is incorrect. ] (]) 15:30, 3 May 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning Thegoodlocust=== | ===Result concerning Thegoodlocust=== |
Revision as of 15:30, 3 May 2010
ShortcutThis board is for users to request enforcement under the terms of the climate change article probation. Requests should take the following format:
{{subst:Climate Sanction enforcement request | User against whom enforcement is requested = <Username> | Sanction or remedy that this user violated = ] | Diffs of edits that violate it, and an explanation how they do so <!-- When providing several diffs, please use a numbered list as in this example. --> =<p> # <Explanation> # <Explanation> # <Explanation> # ... | Diffs of prior warnings =<p> # Warning by {{user|<Username>}} # Warning by {{admin|<Username>}} # ... | Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction) = <Your text> | Additional comments = <Your text> }}
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For Requests for refactoring of Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines violations only, comments by parties other than the requester, the other party involved, and the reviewing/actioning/archiving editor will be removed.
Suspected Scibaby sockpuppets
Following discussion at Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement#Scibaby and enablers, this section is established to list active suspected Scibaby sockpuppets. This list is merely a courtesy to other editors active in this topic area, and does not replace Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Scibaby. Please remove accounts that have been blocked or were listed in error. Accounts listed here are probably sockpuppets of a banned user, and may be reverted on sight. Any editor in good standing may "adopt" an edit that in his or her considered opinion improves an article, subject to common editing norms. The utmost care should be exercised to avoid listing accounts in error, and any mistakes should be promptly recognized and rectified.
Hipocrite
No action. Non optimal conduct and comment, perhaps, but nothing sanctionable, and no further admin comments since mine. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:11, 29 April 2010 (UTC) |
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Request concerning Hipocrite
It may also be wise to take a look at this User_talk:Short_Brigade_Harvester_Boris#What_do_you_claim.3F.
2010-04-25T19:45:24 Nsaa (→Requests_for_enforcement: new section) Discussion concerning HipocriteStatement by Hipocrite
Comments by others about the request concerning Hipocrite
Result concerning Hipocrite
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Marknutley (again)
Closed, apparently resolved (?) within discussion. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:14, 29 April 2010 (UTC) |
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If I were less involved, I'd block for this PA. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:00, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Another personal attack,
No, lets make this simple, here is what i wrote Are you incapable of giving an answer to my question above? Now lets see if i can answer it.
Yes, i can see how that is a rhetorical question which can`t be answered all right —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marknutley (talk • contribs) 17:42, 26 April 2010
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William M. Connolley (and Marknutley)
William M. Connolley is reminded that commentary should be directed toward the content and not the contributor. Marknutley is prohibited from introducing a new source, with some exceptions such as articles published in peer-reviewed journals, books published by a well-regarded academic press, or newspaper articles published in the mainstream media, to any biography of a living person or any climate change article without first clearing the source with another long-term contributor in good standing. He is also prohibited from reverting the removal of sources that he added to an article without first gathering talk page consensus. Marknutley is encouraged to find a mentor who can assist in checking the reliability of sources and with more properly educating him on the reliable sources policy. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:03, 2 May 2010 (UTC) | ||
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Request concerning WMC
Diffs speak for themselves. Cla68 (talk) 00:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Cla68 (talk) 00:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC) Discussion concerning WMCStatement by WMCThere are several issues here, but the major one we're talking about seems to be the 1RR, so I'll address that. I explicitly claimed a BLP exemption for my revert, so the issue is was the edit acceptable under BLP exemption. As I've said on the talk page, in my opinion the "impeccable sourcing" bit is irrelevant. The question is balance, and selective quotation. If I say "immigration is both a blessing and a curse" and you quote me as saying "immigration is... a curse" then your sources are impeccable but you have misrepresented what I said and if you did that on wiki it would be a BLP violation. This is the same issue, though less clear. The section I removed was entitled "Views on Climate Change" but that section by no means represents Curry's views on climate change, instead it merely presents some recent quotes of Curry disagreeing with the IPCC. That is not her view. Curry essentially believes the GW storyline as presented by IPCC. She has a number of quibbles and concerns about the process, but those are at the margins. Her overall viewpoint (which isn't very exciting, because it is the default, and so goes under-reported) is a "warmist" if you need a term William M. Connolley (talk) 08:04, 27 April 2010 (UTC) Note: Cla is making an elementary logical and wiki error by asserting that because he didn't like my BLP-related edits elsewhere, I am not permitted to make BLP related edits in this area. This assertion by Cla is clearly ridiculous. More directly: even if I had made grossly BLP violating edits elsewhere (which I dispute) that doesn't affect in the slightest the existence of the BLP policy, or my (all of our) duty to remove BLP violating material; and my right to claim BLP exemption for such edits as required William M. Connolley (talk) 18:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC) We seem to be reduced to just a slightly iffy "No, not obviously, and not yet. You have no interest in her science, and that is regrettable, but that doesn't mean her biog should reflect that" (NW, 23:55, 27 April 2010). I think it is obvious that that diff doesn't merit reporting on its own; indeed I don't think it merits reporting at all. Please examine the context of that comment: Tillman is trying to justify adding a pile of tittle-tattle to a scientific biography, and completely ignoring Curry's actual real work, which is why she has her current position. This is a genuine ongoing problem with this and indeed many other GW type bios. Also, I put on record my strong objection to Lar pretending to be uninvolved: he is obviously far too biased and involved even to see his involvement. The truely uninvolved admins ought to see this and ask Lar to step back to prevent his bias biasing the results William M. Connolley (talk) 09:23, 28 April 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning WMC
@Lar: "The BLP policy is being used as a smoke screen by WMC's many defenders, who have predictably formed ranks" - please stop it with the conspiracy theories and lay off the accusations of bad faith. You are the one who's attacking an editor for removing content sourced to blog comments from a BLP. The conspiracy you see - it's called Misplaced Pages policy. Guettarda (talk) 04:32, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm having a hard time understanding what was so dreadful about WMC's actions here. I've not been involved in any way with this article, but having reviewed it I think it's clear that the controversial section was "dirty" - a mixture of cherry-picked quotes from reliable and unreliable sources. As I understand it, WMC's concern, apart from the sourcing, is that the content seriously misrepresented Curry's views. The fact that some of the content was reliably sourced doesn't detract from this concern. Given that WMC has worked in the field and is familar with the work of others in that field, I don't think we can dismiss those concerns. It's not about "spin control", nor is BLP just about sourcing; it's essential that a subject's views should be reflected accurately. As others have pointed out below, BLP's toughened approach mandates a conservative approach to content. If questionable material has been added it needs to be removed. Unfortunately think that Lar's strong reaction is affected by his evident dislike of WMC. Put it this way - if it was any editor other than WMC, does anyone think that such a severe penalty (or indeed any penalty) would have been proposed? I suggest that Lar should consider recusing himself from future WMC-related enforcement requests, given his apparent strength of feeling. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:14, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Note that Cla68's diffs about blp and blogs are from 2008, and some of them, such as are totally uncontroversial housekeeping. While Cla's last diff, using deltoid on the Booker page is troubling, how much grudge-holding should be permitted by someone who has lost perspective? Just yesterday, Cla68 was defending comments on a blog as reliable sources. I think perhaps everyone in this discussion who has inserted blog sources or defended blog sources as reliable needs a break - that would be WMC, Marknutley, Cla68 and Lar. Perhaps ban them all from the topic area for a short time to allow them to regain their balance? Say, a month, and perhaps a longer ban on all of them under BLPSE, perhaps 3 months on all BLPs? Hipocrite (talk) 11:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Lar's approach to this seems to be based on two assumptions - that the removal of this content was an improper act of"spin control" and that there's a "cadre" of WMC defenders. Both are faulty. There's no dispute that some of the sourcing (blogs) was bad. WMC is concerned that the section as a whole, including the NY Times-sourced material, gave a misleading impression of Curry's views. He knows Curry's work. I don't, and I'm betting Lar doesn't either. Surely it can't be wise just to dismiss WMC's concerns out of hand, given his professional knowledge?We do want experts to contribute to Misplaced Pages, right? Misrepresenting someone's views is a serious issue - potentially defamatory - so it's absolutely right to exercise caution. Second, I strongly object to the implication that everyone who disagrees with Lar is a WMC "defender". I'm certainly not, and I've criticised his conduct in the past. Assessing whether or not WMC acted properly should not depend on your prior opinion of him. It's absurd to label an assessment that no improprietry occurred as a "defence" of WMC. People are capable of being objective; it's verging on an assumption of bad faith to assume that any assessment that differs from Lar's is motivated by partisanship. Surely, as a matter of basic fairness, we can't treat WMC differently from everyone else - whether more favourably or punitively. I seriously doubt whether Lar would have reacted this way if it had been anyone else. His issue appears to be not so much with the action as with the actor. I don't think that's a healthy approach. -- ChrisO (talk) 14:40, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Pomposity and laconicism I hadn't read the alleged personal attacks in the msst recent Cla68 enforcement request, but Nuclear Warfare says he's iffy about one, which goes:
There's a certain laconic tone to that, but it's well chosen given that he's replying to a person who has stated, without shame or hesitation, that he thinks a sequence of blog postings, a write-up in The New York Times and an interview is "something of a watershed moment in career" of a quite eminent and decorated scientist. If only that were so, my old mate PZ Myers, once a mere associate professor, now a world-famous blogger, would be able to move to Harvard and trade in his blog for the Louis Agassiz chair once held by one of his heroes, Stephen Jay Gould. As you can see, I lack William's talent for laconic humor. His comment was no personal attack, though it cut through the nonsense more surely than I could. Tasty monster (=TS ) 01:01, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
@Admins? It's not clear to me how it has been concluded that WMC acted in the right. I see how his removal of blog-sourced sentences might be covered under WP:BLP, but he removed sentences sourced by the Times and The New York Times as well. (I suppose this applies to MN's treatment too.) I posed this question to SBHB above and did not receive a response. I'd love to have this cleared up.--Heyitspeter (talk) 03:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Response to Dave souza, from below So adding blogs to BLPs are OK sometimes, and sanctionable other times? ATren (talk) 00:56, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Response on proposed restrictions The prohibition against WMC even commenting on the appropriateness of sourcing is frankly abhorrent. I realize that Lar and LHvU have declared open season on WMC, but this goes too far. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:06, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
This whole Comment on content, not on the contributor is massively overused often mistakenly to signify that something is a WP:personal attack. This is a misrepresentation of not only the rule but also the spirit of the rule and is hence WP:wikilawyering. After outlining the clear cases of what a personal attack is the actual text finishes with the statement When in doubt, comment on the article's content without referring to its contributor at all. If you are trying to class WMC's statement as a personal attack based on the fact that he has actually mentioned the contributor you are misinterpreting the rule in a quite extreme but unfortunately all too common way. Polargeo (talk) 09:56, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Subhead for convenience – newspaper blogsIn discussion here, Mark has introduced what seem to me novel and unpersuasive arguments for accepting blogs on newspaper websites with copyright notices etc. so advice by others would be welcome . . dave souza, talk 22:36, 29 April 2010 (UTC) Result concerning WMC
WMC
Marknutley
"Marknutley is prohibited from introducing a new source, with some exceptions such as articles published in peer-reviewed journals, books published by a well-regarded academic press, or newspaper articles published in the mainstream media, to any biography of a living person or any climate change article without first clearing the source with another long-term contributor in good standing. He is also prohibited from reverting the removal of sources that he added to an article without first gathering talk page consensus. Marknutley is encouraged to find a mentor who can assist in checking the reliability of sources and with more properly educating him on the reliable sources policy."
+ + + + + + + + + + + + I note that no-one troubled to inform me of this result on my talk page. I take that to mean that no binding result concerning me was invovked - obviously, had any such result been determined, I would have been notified rather than any discovery being left to casual chance William M. Connolley (talk) 18:48, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Why is there no restriction on WMC introducing sources? He also added a blog source to an article, as was presented in the RFE. ATren (talk) 20:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
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Atmoz
Atmoz is advised to review Misplaced Pages:Civility#Identifying incivility (especially point 1. d) and to apply it in interactions going forward. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:16, 1 May 2010 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Atmoz
Discussion concerning AtmozStatement by Atmoz
Comments by others about the request concerning Atmoz
This is so bad. I have no word for it. Why the heck should my language be subject to Atmoz comments at all? Why not just keep the discussion about what was discussed? I find it totally counterproductive and it harms Misplaced Pages. So yes give him a long block or a long topic ban for this so other people can start working. What do Atmoz try to achieve? Getting people angry so they make "mistakes" and can get them blocked/topic banned? Nsaa (talk) 01:29, 29 April 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Atmoz
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Marknutley (yet again)
Marknutley blocked 24 hours for technical violation of 1RR "any article, any 24 hour period" - noting Mn has requested he be unblocked to be allowed to work on drafts in userspace (no objection from blocking admin). LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:12, 1 May 2010 (UTC) |
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Request concerning Marknutley
More: Failure to understand RS:
Discussion concerning MarknutleyStatement by MarknutleyOn The Hockey Stick Illusion Tags were removed per talk page consensus for no merge. The review which i reinserted had been removed under the claim the guy was not an expert book reviewer, However i found a source showing he has reviewed books in the past so i put the review back. On the Bishop Hill (Blog) I removed the tags per talk page consensus for no merge. I reverted the removal of reliably sourced material. Mainly the BBC and The Guardian which had been removed by a person who wants to delete the article. I had not realized the removal of tags per consensus counted as a revert. mark nutley (talk) 23:33, 28 April 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning MarknutleyI see no attempts to talk to MN before filing this request. It may have been an honest mistake. The disputed edit is also extremely recent. So I suggest WMC (or the enforcement 'committee') simply asks MN to self-revert to restore the merge tag, and if he agrees, collapse this thread. It'd save everybody a lot of time.--Heyitspeter (talk) 22:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
I've just learn something new about the English word blogs. Mark nutley has shown great willingness here to self revert if he had got the chance. Nsaa (talk) 01:39, 29 April 2010 (UTC) Comment I think that Storm in a teacup should redirect here. Not this section, this whole page. Happily, I don't think I'm part of anyone's team, so there won't be a request for enforcement for this otherwise disruptive comment. Thepm (talk) 09:51, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
As Marknutlety has yet again engaged in stale revert warring without discussion (), I retract my request for lienency in light of positive progress. Perhaps a break will do him some good. Hipocrite (talk) 13:36, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I provide the revets and the previous version reverted to for the two reverts as a point of information. As a further point of information, since WMC pretty much defined how 3rr is adjudicated, I'd consider him more authoratative than any policy document. 18:46, 28 April 2010 reverts .
21:04, 27 April 2010 reverts . If you are defining 1rr as "reverts the same thing more than once" then it's not a 1rr violation. However, those are both "reverts" and so someone who is not permitted to "revert more than once in a 24 hour span" is not permitted to do that
Result concerning Marknutley
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Polargeo
point made, no action needed |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Polargeo
There are no prior warnings. I understand the situation.
I disagree passionately with this probation. I believe it was initially not advertised wide enough to be a proper consensus. I think it is a joke where every small issue that would otherwise go unnoticed now invites every nutcase (including myself) to come and have some sort of partisan say on it. The very idea that three or four self appointed high sheriffs could ever police this area is a joke and goes against my core feelings about what Misplaced Pages should be. My comments in the admin sections are largely to do with a protest against Lar’s involvement but that is not the motivation for this request. The motivation is to bring about a sanction on myself which clears up my involvement status and in extreme prevents me from commenting in the enforcements area altogether which is an area I fundamentally disagree with.
Discussion concerning PolargeoStatement by PolargeoI think Polargeo is right and I should be banned. The level of the ban is obviously up to uninvolved admins to decide on. This would violate WP:POINT if Polargeo had not genuinely requested a ban per sanctions. He has requested this and as such I am prepared to accept any decision based on his request and feel it would do me good. Polargeo (talk) 10:53, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning PolargeoThis request for enforcement was filed in violation of WP:POINT. I suggest the applicant withdraw.--Heyitspeter (talk) 10:03, 29 April 2010 (UTC) comment I think the applicant should have tried discussing the matter with Polargeo before filing the complaint. It's a clear breach of AGF to just bring the complaint here without trying a bit of discussion first. I think applicant should be flogged with a warm lettuce until he calls "uncle". Polargeo on the other hand should be given some warm cocoa and buttered toast. Thepm (talk) 10:09, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
If you're looking for some advice Polargeo, I would suggest not climbing the Reichstag to try to avoid losing an argument. Cla68 (talk) 22:52, 29 April 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Polargeo
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Thegoodlocust
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Thegoodlocust
- User requesting enforcement
- William M. Connolley (talk) 21:59, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Thegoodlocust (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation Banned from discussing climate change, including user talk pages
Deliberate incivility and baiting, ethnic slurs:
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Piles o' stuff in User_talk:Lar#Can_you_imagine...
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- He is under santion
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- As deemed appropriate by a really uninvolved admin
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Note deliberate incivility by TGL, obviously LHVU / Lar will now need to "narrow" the meaning of slur to exclude this use William M. Connolley (talk) 20:33, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Thegoodlocust
Statement by Thegoodlocust
The topic ban extending to user talk pages is clearly not valid under the climate change probation (esp. ones that have been repeatedly stated to be an open forum for discussion) nor was the topic ban valid to start since 2over0 (who basically disappeared after unilaterally declaring the topic ban - likely out of some sense of shame) didn't even bring the discussion to this noticeboard. Of course, this is brought up, again by Connolley, because I'm daring to defend someone that he wants gone - attack, attack and attack. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:35, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Update: Bozmo appears to have changed his definition of the scope of the probation; when a similar problem came up with WMC, he correctly stated that the probation didn't apply to user talk pages (correcting me in fact). TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:22, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Response to Bozmo: I was making the request to you as a courtesy instead of making an RfC. The previous link has flat out shown that you change your interpretation of probationary scope depending on who is on the pillory and I was hoping that even you would take pause when presented with such damning evidence. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:20, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Statement by Awickert
I brought up the original topic ban (coincident with 2/0's) against TheGoodLocust. While this could be a technical violation of the ban (haven't checked), I don't see any problem with TGL's behavior at Lar's talk. I originally brought it up for his grandstanding/aggressive behavior at article talk pages, which I saw to be detrimental to collaboration and article-space editing. I found this request because I just responded to him in a very civil conversation at Lar's talk. In addition to the civility, this conversation is ongoing at an out-of-the-way venue (i.e., not one of the article talk pages) with the blessing of the venue's owner. I am afraid that a topic ban extension will be detrimental to the environment here, as I think TGL will be nabbed for a crime he didn't think he was committing (yes, maybe its in the rules, but...), and that such an extension simply will create more bitterness that will extend into the future and beyond the realm of TGL's work here. I would suggest that TGL's topic ban not be extended, and that he be encouraged to continue the currently-more-productive mode of behavior that I see at Lar's talk. Awickert (talk) 01:38, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Thegoodlocust
- I am recusing from uninvolved admin commentary, since I was part of the same discussion noted by Doctor Connelley and specifically addressed TGL. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:25, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- And yet the admin who got me talking about climate change on Lar's talk (baited?) has not recused himself and is, in fact, wanting to extend an already illegitimate ban that I've only followed out of sheer laziness even though I've stayed far away from climate change articles and their talk pages for 3 full months. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:42, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- Could you be more specific, preferably with diffs, about how you were "baited" by an admin who "got you talking" about climate change? MastCell 23:04, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- And yet the admin who got me talking about climate change on Lar's talk (baited?) has not recused himself and is, in fact, wanting to extend an already illegitimate ban that I've only followed out of sheer laziness even though I've stayed far away from climate change articles and their talk pages for 3 full months. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:42, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- "sadly for you I am still a trained scientist and therefore more inclined to the scientific methodology and consensus, which is an area where WMC excels." Or you could go with the previous post of his in that same topic. I consider that baiting since I am quite a fan of science and don't like people trying to marginalize my beliefs as unscientific, nor to I appreciate the annoying suggestions that crop up frequently of creationism/ID sympathies (I'm an atheist). TheGoodLocust (talk) 23:13, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- No one invited your comments at a third party's talkpage, and I was as forgetful of your restriction as likely they were. I therefore do not see any attempt at baiting, and think you might withdraw that allegation. I also strongly suggest that you do not make interpretations on either the validity of the original restriction or the admin's rationale in doing so - the admin who is commenting is suggesting a response that is unlikely to appeal to any other sysop who reads your claims here. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well, Lar did invite me to use his talk page, several times, and I think it is a very healthy thing to have such an outlet (for all parties). And yes, the restriction 2over2 imposed on user talk pages does not fall under climate probationary sanctions and is certainly not preventative as admin actions are supposed to be. After all, the probation clearly states, "bans from editing the climate change pages and/or closely related topics." And I don't think Lar's talk page qualifies under that definition - that definition was meant to include things like esoteric biographical articles and not userspace. TheGoodLocust (talk) 23:18, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- Your topic ban, including user talkpages, was clarified here, before Lar (or I) became involved. Lar's invitation would have been made in good faith, in ignorance of the detailed terms of the ban. The issue of interpretation of bans, sanctions, etc, is why there are these long-winded discussions on these pages now - so everyone knows, or can refer to, the extent of the decisions. Your ban was before this practice was established, but appears otherwise within the remit given to admins by the Probation. Personally, I think it sucks just a little and you have been snared by your and other people's (me included) carelessness - but I also think you should accept this harsh lesson and accept the minimal sanction being proposed. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:30, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well, Lar did invite me to use his talk page, several times, and I think it is a very healthy thing to have such an outlet (for all parties). And yes, the restriction 2over2 imposed on user talk pages does not fall under climate probationary sanctions and is certainly not preventative as admin actions are supposed to be. After all, the probation clearly states, "bans from editing the climate change pages and/or closely related topics." And I don't think Lar's talk page qualifies under that definition - that definition was meant to include things like esoteric biographical articles and not userspace. TheGoodLocust (talk) 23:18, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- There were always longwinded discussions - as long as the sanctions were discussing someone like WMC. Skeptics were far more likely (the only people I believe) to get unilateraly banned by someone like 2over0. And yes, he can clarify or declare his sanction as much as he likes but it simply is a massive overreach, to ban my use of user talk pages, that simply isn't available as a means of sanction via the way the probation was set up. TheGoodLocust (talk) 01:00, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
While there's room to argue whether s/he crosses the line before that point, this is a clear violation of his ban: I suppose my main problem with the whole thing is that the fundamentals of the theory don't make any sort of logical sense. For example, all the catastrophic scenarios of runaway global warming, envisioned by computer models, only work by assuming that the 3-4% of CO2 that man produces (1.52 × 10-5 of the atmosphere) will cause positive feedback loops - this just doesn't make sense to me because CO2 has been so much higher in the past. It is a giant non sequitur - and add that other phenomena better explain events and it all seems rather silly. TheGoodLocust (talk) 17:35, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Blaming others for "baiting" doesn't really hold water. Not only are you responsible for your own actions, but it also seems pretty clear that TGL raised the issue of climate change by saying I'm not sure how I feel about you Bozmo. I don't like that you've set up carbon permit trading (seems like a major COI). With that comment, TGL initiates the conversation between him/herself and BozMo. Guettarda (talk) 00:48, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Which was in direct response to him calling me out by name on a page I watch. I guess you missed that part. Odd how Less has the integrity to recuse himself and not the person directly responsible for my so-called breaking of the violations (and since you mentioned that comment, a person who has mistated facts about me in the past in an attempt to ban me). TheGoodLocust (talk) 01:00, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Diffs, please. LessHeard vanU (talk) 01:04, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- He stated I had done 4 reverts in 24 hours (I hadn't) and understated WMC's reverts. TheGoodLocust (talk) 01:18, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Since there were a number of complaints about tgl in a short period it seems a good idea to link to the whole conversation but as I recall the fourth revert was just outside 24 hours so I was slightly incorrect. --BozMo talk 08:25, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Odd how when there are a number of complaints against WMC in a short period they get "closed as a mess" (ignored) instead of being dealt with. And yes, you were "slightly off" in that the extra diff would've made me break 3rr, and you were slightly off in that WMC had an extra revert that you didn't count (as pointed out by Unitanode). However, I did edit war and was sanctioned for it and now understand the edit warring rules better (I'd been going by WMC's example - and I believe he'd actually been formally warned by Arbcom for his edit warring). TheGoodLocust (talk) 09:45, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm confused as to how an edit back in February caused you to break your ban on discussing climate change 3 months later. Guettarda (talk) 04:52, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not here to resolve your confusion. I'm here because WMC was trying to improve the project by dragging me back here. I hope he gets what he is wishing for. TheGoodLocust (talk) 05:01, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- You said: "Which was in direct response to him calling me out by name on a page I watch". But your diff points to an edit 3 months ago. I really don't think you're saying an edit from 3 months ago "baited" you into discussing climate change on Lar's talk page. So what are you saying? Guettarda (talk) 05:09, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- The diff was obviously about what was in the parantheseses since I assumed Less was capable of scrolling up on the previously provided diff to see Bozmo call me out by name. I thought this was quite clear and blazingly obvious, but then again I thought the same amount the simple math in our previous discussion where you required further explanation. Cheers. TheGoodLocust (talk) 05:16, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Banning an editor from discussing a topic on user talkpages is the same as banning every other editor from initiating discussion about the topic with said editor. That seems quite a restriction - why shouldn't editors be able to participate in civil discussion on each others talkpages? I see the link to where the block notice was left on TGLs talkpage, but does anyone have the link to the discussion that gave consensus to the terms of the block? Seeing that discussion would give the terms more context in light of this request. Weakopedia (talk) 07:05, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- I do not think the terms of probation say anything about requiring consensus for the terms of a block. Uninvolved admins have wide discretion to do that kind of thing and the practice of seeking consensus (and also erring on the side of inaction) is a recent practice. Anyway, this is not the place or occasion for reviewing the original decision; this is for dealing for infringments of an existing block. --BozMo talk 07:50, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed, it's not required that there be consensus. It is often helpful to get it first, and it's a common practice here (although not elsewhere), but it's not required. ++Lar: t/c 17:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- As I stated previously the "erring on the side of inaction" is not a recent thing - it is simply the status quo of sanctions for one side of this debate while the other side has gotten unilaterally banned when they get too uppity. As for weakopedia's original question, AFAIK no other admins were consulted on the ban and indeed, if standards were applied equally people like WMC would've been banned 10 times over by now due to his far worse behavior. 2over0 simply went out of his way to diff mine and then ban me without asking other admins for input. TheGoodLocust (talk) 08:25, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Hmm. There was a concurrent complaint about you on the probation page which got closed without action as no longer necessary however. --BozMo talk 10:33, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- @ TheGoodLocust Have you ever tried discussing this with 2/0? He is understanding and listens to concerns. Your attacks here are not the way to go about things though. My understanding is that 2/0 left because he wanted to edit articles and not burn out from all of this stuff. As Lar always says, stop blaming others and take responsiblity for your own actions. You are blaming everyone above for this situation and not saying anything about your own behavior about this. I think that the sanction should be extended because of this behavior you are showing. Sorry, --CrohnieGal 13:36, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Re Lars comment in the section below; I agree that this should be clarified, since it appears that the original intent was to prevent disruption of CC related space and the antagonism of certain editors. Posting on editors talkpages where they are welcome or otherwise invited, but not where there is comment already from one of those parties with whom TGL's restriction is intended to reduce interaction, may be permitted. I also agree that RfC's, like RfArb, is an area where such restrictions are suspended. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:41, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- I think it is rather clear from the clarificationon TGL's comment at Marknutley's page , that it included "suggestions" and other indirect involvement in CC related space. From what i can recall it was either a complete ban, or a wide topic-ban - and in the interest of congeniality and a feeling that TGL might have things to offer to WP outside of this area - it ended as a wide topic-ban. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 17:07, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Which can be revised if there is a need. ++Lar: t/c 17:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Of course it can. It can also be completely overturned. But that doesn't exclude the need for full disclosure of what the specifics were, so that a decision can be based upon such. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 17:59, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Oh absolutely. Specifics are always good. We've had some confusion about what things were in force and the like, lately too (e.g. with TGL), so the point is well taken. ++Lar: t/c 18:07, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Of course it can. It can also be completely overturned. But that doesn't exclude the need for full disclosure of what the specifics were, so that a decision can be based upon such. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 17:59, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Which can be revised if there is a need. ++Lar: t/c 17:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Rather than extending the ban, I think it should be clarified/narroewd - so lets be clear. TGL is subject to a ban. He breaks it. Lar's response is no sanction whatsoever, but the ban itself should be narrowed. Yet more bending over backwards to be helpful towards the "skeptics" William M. Connolley (talk) 18:37, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- I suggest you look at Bozmo's talk page - you broke the same restriction and back then he decided that user talk pages were not subject to the climate change probation (and indeed they are not mentioned in the rules). Or, if you like, there was this time when 2over0 not only unilaterally closed a complaint against you, but refused to reopen it even after being asked to by several other admins. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:15, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed TGL is subject to a ban, and BozMo's suggestion is that the violation is noted and TGL warned against further infractions. Lars suggestion is that some consideration is given for the ban to be varied going forward, not that the violation is disregarded under a new definition of the original ban. It is within the remit of the admins to see if there is a consensus for variations of existing sanctions, since it is common practice to make them more stringent or wider ranging when it is concluded that the existing wording has not achieved the desired outcome and may also be narrowed or varied when reflection provides reason to do so. Not all breaches of the Probation, or editors restrictions and even WP policy, are met with the application of the maximum sanctions available. This is true of many editors reported here. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:38, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
The message sent by the proposed close is clear: "If there is any real or imagined ambiguity in a sanction proposed here, you should violate the sanction (or at a minimum test its limits) without asking first. The worst that can happen is that there will be a 'clarification' of the sanction." If that is indeed the message you want to send, go ahead and close the case in this way. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:27, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- As I've already demonstrated, when this exact same issue of probationary scope came up with WMC it was dismissed, and, in fact, Bozmo's opinion on the scope of the climate change probations was quite different then. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:32, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
I concur with BozMo's proposed wording, that future violations of the ban - in whatever form it takes - will result in a 3 month extension (or 6 month, if it is decided to open some avenues to a form of restricted access to be decided). I know this isn't quite what BozMo proposed, but the discussion is ongoing on the latter aspect.LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:44, 2 May 2010 (UTC) I now suggest that the original topic ban, in the most stringent reading of its provision as clarified by Admin 2/0, be extended by not less than 3 and not more than 6 months, given that the olive branch offered in varying the conditions going forward has been used as a bludgeon in reactivating old issues. It appears that the behaviour that the topic ban was intended to remove from CC related space - as I said, including editor talk pages - is still in evidence. Enough. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:30, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- OK. Re-reading commentary in the "uninvolved" admins section below it's not entirely clear what the proposed close happens to be. Lar proposes that the appropriate response to the violation is to weaken the sanction; BozMo's suggestion is to clarify the sanction. You do not have a response there, but in light of the above your response to appears to be "don't do it again, and this time we really mean it." So it appears the admins are not of one mind as I had gathered from my first reading. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) PS: As an aside, perhaps slurs against someone's nationality are acceptable because they were not explicitly prohibited by the terms of his sanction? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:25, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- lol, that's right it was a "slur." I intentionally slurred my own family (Kaiser FYI). This is the fine sort of interpretation that got me topc banned in the first place - and which is conspicuously absent when it comes to WMC et all. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:33, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- I think TGL is hardening attitudes by his continuing violation of the existing understanding of the topic ban and his apparently increasingly bellicose commentary. I am striking and replacing my comment above. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:30, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- It isn't a violation. Bozmo has stated in the past that user talk pages are not subject to the probation. I was merely following his guidance. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:33, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- The admin who placed the ban clarified that it was, and until consensus changes that is still the case. BozMo may have been voicing an opinion, but I am certain was not varying the terms without the aforementioned consensus to do so. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:51, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Clearly, the terms of applicability in terms of pages of the specific ban prohibiting tGL from discussing Climate Change widely across Misplaced Pages is not the same thing as the area on which the general probation terms apply. tGL was banned from discussing CC on a wider area than the probation area itself for reasons which are perhaps becoming apparent. This has been pointed out already but I think tGL is not managing to listen well. --BozMo talk 22:02, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- The admin who placed the ban clarified that it was, and until consensus changes that is still the case. BozMo may have been voicing an opinion, but I am certain was not varying the terms without the aforementioned consensus to do so. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:51, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- It isn't a violation. Bozmo has stated in the past that user talk pages are not subject to the probation. I was merely following his guidance. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:33, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well "clearly" if I was not banned under the rules of the climate change probation then this case shouldn't be before the climate change probation enforcement board. And yes Bozmo, the reasons are apparent, I tend to find and point out hypocrisy and inconsistency that some would rather not see the light of day. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:08, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Odd how his opinion on the rules changed so drastically in my case - either he thinks user talk pages are subject to the probation, as he states now, or they are not, as he previously stated, and which the climate change probation itself implicitely states. I would like to know what changed his mind all of the sudden. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:05, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- My mistake was that I misread probation for ban, (or the other way round). No, the Probation does not cover user talkpages. You, however, are banned from commenting in relation to CC matters everywhere except RfArb and RfC pages - and your mistake is continuing to flout the ban. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Odd how his opinion on the rules changed so drastically in my case - either he thinks user talk pages are subject to the probation, as he states now, or they are not, as he previously stated, and which the climate change probation itself implicitely states. I would like to know what changed his mind all of the sudden. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:05, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, I believe we are making some progress, but you've confused me a bit. Since the probation does not cover user talk pages, then what exactly am I being accused of? I've respected the probation ban w/ regard to how the rules are set up (no edits to any article, article talk, or even on this page until this came up). TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:30, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- While the Probation covers violations within those spaces, a sanction such as a ban following from those violations may cover more than just the probation area; such as, for instance, Misplaced Pages. In the instance upon which the topic ban reach was clarified it appears that you were attempting to proxy your arguments by presenting detailed comment at another users talkpage. Had this been permitted, then the restriction on contributing to the CC article area would have nullified. Thus you were prohibited from discussing CC related topics pretty much everywhere within project space. A ban from areas outside of the topic space is permissible, where it may be considered that they will be used to circumvent the ban. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:19, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, I believe we are making some progress, but you've confused me a bit. Since the probation does not cover user talk pages, then what exactly am I being accused of? I've respected the probation ban w/ regard to how the rules are set up (no edits to any article, article talk, or even on this page until this came up). TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:30, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- So in short, in my case the bounds of the probation were extended while in WMC's case the bounds were followed - and in each seperate case Bozmo argued that the scope was different. I find this to be a very interesting case w/ regards to Bozmo since he not only initiated the conversation which brought this complaint, has changed his mind regarding the scope of the probation, and has taken what I thought was a relatively kind gesture at his talk page as a reason to extend my ban for several months. I don't recall him being so strict! TheGoodLocust (talk) 23:29, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
n.b. BozMo appears to be a teensy bit involved in the RFC/Lar discussion, and can certainly not be considered totally neutral here. Rather like the cat in the mouse's poem in Alice. Collect (talk) 22:50, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- I like the analogy. No one claims to be neutral; articles and edits can be neutral but people cannot be. Lar and I are in amiable disagreement at present on some issues. But I can claim to be uninvolved, and actually the way this probation works having some range of views on uninvolved admins is, in my view, healthy. Generally speaking Lar and I both listen to each other's views too. --BozMo talk 08:00, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. You would be amazed how many folks here know nought abot classics <g>. (My favorites are ones who do not know about piling Ossa on Pelion.) Where it is now accepted that tGL's ban will not apply to certain process pages and user pages, does it make sense to use violations which were due to such posts as a reason for extension of the ban? You will note, moreover, that I even spoke up for the famed Okip elsewhere, so I am not a believer in using grudges as a means of determining penalties. Collect (talk) 11:04, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
- Arguable and there was a point in the below discussion when I had come to this conclusion but I went through the sequence of his contributions again and all in all I think the analysis of 2/0 is correct. --BozMo talk 11:23, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. You would be amazed how many folks here know nought abot classics <g>. (My favorites are ones who do not know about piling Ossa on Pelion.) Where it is now accepted that tGL's ban will not apply to certain process pages and user pages, does it make sense to use violations which were due to such posts as a reason for extension of the ban? You will note, moreover, that I even spoke up for the famed Okip elsewhere, so I am not a believer in using grudges as a means of determining penalties. Collect (talk) 11:04, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
As I see it, the point of the sanction was to deny TGL the use of Misplaced Pages as a soap box, so that other editors are not forced to either let his wrong claims stand or spend the time to refute them. I don't see how this purpose is served by allowing him to soapbox on certain user talk pages, whether the user in question accepts this or not. While we grant some leeway to users on their user and talk pages, these are still project pages, and not under control of the user. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:49, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
- Lar and Bozmo should follow LHvU and recuse themselves. Their involvement runs the risk of this being thrown out, which I think it should be. Polargeo (talk) 15:24, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
- Also Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation states "bans from editing the climate change pages and/or closely related topics" Lar's talkpage is not a closely related topic so if this ban applies to Lar's talkpage it is incorrect. Polargeo (talk) 15:30, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
- Lar and Bozmo should follow LHvU and recuse themselves. Their involvement runs the risk of this being thrown out, which I think it should be. Polargeo (talk) 15:24, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Thegoodlocust
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
Also at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Lar. Disrespect of existing ban stated clearly at Yes it is a clear violation now we have been reminded of the ban. Suggest we extend by a further 3 or 6 months with a ban if the terms are violated again? --BozMo talk 22:13, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- To be absolutely clear despite tgl's comments about I did not recall the terms of the ban on tgl until this was posted if I ever knew them exactly. He seems to have returned first to Lar and then to WMC's talk page then to the RFC on Lar before engaging with me. And he made some vague and incorrect comments about my involvement permit trading which invited a reply from me. I would however be interested in Lar's view before fixing a decision. --BozMo talk 06:09, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- I note the use of "really uninvolved" in the request for enforcement, which seems a preemptive strike. I don't think any of the admins here fit WMC's "really uninvolved" definition with respect to this matter, as we've all had conversations with TGL at one point or another. That includes LHvU and BozMo. This response of mine is to a direct question.
- Rather than extending the ban, I think it should be clarified/narroewd to exempt user talk pages where TGL is welcome. A statement from the owner to that effect should suffice (this would mean mine, where he is welcome, since I host wideranging and open conversations on a regular basis, and I don't remove comments I disagree with or that are critical of me, but not WMC's, where he has been explicitly told he is not welcome and where wideranging and open conversations are apparently in general not welcome, and where comments that are critical of WMC or his approaches, or just from from people he apparently has animus toward are routinely removed. All within policy, to be sure but not likely to win any Miss Congeniality awards) Further repetition of comments on pages he's not welcome on would be sanctionable. Note that we cannot and should not extend CC enforcement to user RfCs. ++Lar: t/c 14:42, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Okay. If you are saying he was explicitly welcome on your talk page I am happy that we just clarify where he can go. I had not seen the invitation you offered him but as host to the discussion I take your views seriously. However I think he also needs cautioning about the tendency displayed above to attempt to assume bias and bad faith where none exist (or in the case of bias where none is relevant). --BozMo talk 18:07, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- EVERYONE is welcome on my talk page, but I'm happy to make explicit invitations where that's needful for clarity. In TGL's case I think I did explicitly invite him at some point, perhaps on his talk, although I don't have the diff handy nor do I know of the ordering of events exactly (to the best of my recollection, it was after he gave me a barnstar though, and WMC responded with snarky mockery (note both the words and the edit summary), and TGL went to talk to WMC about it, and was in turn disinvited from WMC's page in what was actually a pretty mild way by WMC... ah here is my invite. ). So with that settled (?) I want to turn to the latter part, assuming bias where none exists is indeed not a good practice, and we all should be admonished not to assume it where none exists. So, support this approach. ++Lar: t/c 18:20, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Meanwhile tGL is continuing to violate the terms of his probation without invitation and repeat allegations of bias etc. even here where he definitely was not invited. So the stuff on Lar's page is by invitation (thats ok), the stuff on the RFC is because even though a site ban was considered RFC's are always in play (50-50), the stuff on the RFC talk page not actually on the RFC is well, kind of nearly ok by association (75-25), the drop by at WMC's was provoked, the use of this probation to make allegations about the existing ban is... or hang on are we missing something? I am always quick to unblock people who have got the message and say they are changing but here we have a clear case of someone still claiming they are right and the world has no justice and they want to carry on. So I think I would rather add three months to the probation period, and caution against allegations. But I am open to hear other views? Oh and varying the terms a little and clarifying them is fine by me, still.--BozMo talk 21:15, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well spotted. I apologize for inviting TGL to my talk page without first checking to see if it was ok or not, within his terms, that is... But I think we still should modify his topic ban to leave out user talk pages where he is invited. Subject to all normal restrictions on behavior, it's not a carte blanche or anything. As for the RfC, I think he needs to be able to comment on the topics that the RfC raises. But NOT on the content controversies themselves, only on admin and editor actions... after that (as your examples shade into darker and darker gray areas)... all that stuff is not allowed now and shouldn't be allowed after modification, if such be done. ++Lar: t/c 03:13, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
- Meanwhile tGL is continuing to violate the terms of his probation without invitation and repeat allegations of bias etc. even here where he definitely was not invited. So the stuff on Lar's page is by invitation (thats ok), the stuff on the RFC is because even though a site ban was considered RFC's are always in play (50-50), the stuff on the RFC talk page not actually on the RFC is well, kind of nearly ok by association (75-25), the drop by at WMC's was provoked, the use of this probation to make allegations about the existing ban is... or hang on are we missing something? I am always quick to unblock people who have got the message and say they are changing but here we have a clear case of someone still claiming they are right and the world has no justice and they want to carry on. So I think I would rather add three months to the probation period, and caution against allegations. But I am open to hear other views? Oh and varying the terms a little and clarifying them is fine by me, still.--BozMo talk 21:15, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- EVERYONE is welcome on my talk page, but I'm happy to make explicit invitations where that's needful for clarity. In TGL's case I think I did explicitly invite him at some point, perhaps on his talk, although I don't have the diff handy nor do I know of the ordering of events exactly (to the best of my recollection, it was after he gave me a barnstar though, and WMC responded with snarky mockery (note both the words and the edit summary), and TGL went to talk to WMC about it, and was in turn disinvited from WMC's page in what was actually a pretty mild way by WMC... ah here is my invite. ). So with that settled (?) I want to turn to the latter part, assuming bias where none exists is indeed not a good practice, and we all should be admonished not to assume it where none exists. So, support this approach. ++Lar: t/c 18:20, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Okay. If you are saying he was explicitly welcome on your talk page I am happy that we just clarify where he can go. I had not seen the invitation you offered him but as host to the discussion I take your views seriously. However I think he also needs cautioning about the tendency displayed above to attempt to assume bias and bad faith where none exist (or in the case of bias where none is relevant). --BozMo talk 18:07, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Comment from 2over0: As a general principle, I do not think that this probation includes the authority to ban someone from RfC/U, ArbCom, or appeal of any sanction to an appropriate venue; if someone edits disruptively in the normal sense in any of these cases, standard dispute resolution mechanisms should suffice. Discussions related to climate change taking place at usertalk are, I believe, covered by broadly construed; we have certainly included such discussions when considering sanctions. Discussions unrelated to climate change, even if evidencing similar disruption, should be treated in other venues. For instance, I endorse the close of Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement/Archive6#FellGleaming (2) as falling outside the remit of this board; previous sanctions and discussions here may be presented as relevant to discussions elsewhere, but we should not overreach purely for the sake of expediency. For also instance, a topic banned editor may appeal here or at AN/I, but should not otherwise comment here.
At the risk of invoking IAR, the question of whether an edit is covered by a ban should be viewed in the light of whether or not it furthers a climate change related dispute or is acting to circumvent or obviate the ban. LHvU's reasoning follows my own in noting that the evident primary effect of the edit in question was to continue to participate by proxy. It is well-established by wikiprecedent that such edits are covered by a topic ban. I chose to warn TGL instead of enacting a ban-evasion block because I hoped that the minimal intervention would resolve the issue; at least in the short term after that warning, I think that events bear out my reasoning.
It is the primary responsibility of a banned user to remember any restrictions on their contributions to this collaborative project. Intentionally baiting someone in an attempt to inspire a lapse of judgement or encouraging someone to edit outside the bounds of a ban would of course be disruptive. I do not think that either of these cases obtain here. A polite note by TheGoodLocust noting his withdrawal from the area should have prevented the matter from proceding any further. Honestly, for me, a non-disruptive chatroom style discussion at usertalk of general issues rather than specific articles or edits should require nothing more from us than a polite reminder that the entire rest of the internet remains available.
Crohnie brought this discussion to my attention a few hours ago (thank you); I have been avoiding this topic area for the last few weeks for a variety of reasons, but I feel I would be remiss to fail to comment on an issue where I am already involved. Glancing at the relevant pages then, I expected to leave the matter here. Looking more closely, however, TheGoodLocust is in blatant violation of his topic ban with edits such as: or . I believe that the standard procedure in these cases is to reset the ban. Given that he has also been continuing a personal dispute (ex:), making comments like I'd assumed you hadn't posted it to the appropriate area because this was some sort of elaborate joke and that you couldn't possibly be serious in your request., and generally adopting a highly combative tone, I see no reason to act differently in this case. I am not really a fan of civility blocks, but I would like to remind TheGoodLocust that Misplaced Pages:Civility is good policy. - 2/0 (cont.) 07:21, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ok so to move to a close, we reset the ban duration from now, clarify that RfC/U, ArbCom, legitimate appeal and Lar's talk page are explicitly excluded from the ban (you want this Lar?), and give a civility reminder? Fine by me. --BozMo talk 07:56, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
- Rather than naming my talk page specifically, I think a phrasing such as "user talk pages where TGL has been explicitly invited to participate" (and then maintaining a list) or similar might be better as it doesn't mean we have to modify things if someone else issues an invite. I do not myself see this set of transgressions as serious enough reason for a reset, I'd suggest instead tacking a month on to the end, but I'll go along with consensus as it appears to stand. ++Lar: t/c 12:10, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with preferring a general statement (preferably one that can be used as precedent) rather than naming Lar's talkpage specifically. I am uncomfortable with whitelisting talkpages on an invitation-basis given the established issue of proxying, but I also do not like the idea of telling Lar what he can do with his talkpage. Absent this topic ban, that discussion would be perfectly normal and well within WP:USER. At the same time, explicit discussion of articles needs to be included for the ban to mean anything.
- I think we are in general consensus on the RfC/U, ArbCom, and legitimate appeals points. If someone wants to work up some boilerplate for future topic bans under this probation that might not be a bad idea.
- In the interests of getting this resolved, I am okay with amending the ban to exclude Lar's talkpage and trusting him to give a nudge if discussion veers towards disruption or ban violation. I would prefer a reset in the interests of making enforcement more predictable, but in light of the above discussion I could accept tacking on a month. - 2/0 (cont.) 14:39, 3 May 2010 (UTC)