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As a result of the serial disruption of AfD and other questionable behaviour, I have raised a user RfC on Jason Gastrich, see ]. - ] <sup>]]</sup>/<sub>]]</sub> ] '']'' 12:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC) As a result of the serial disruption of AfD and other questionable behaviour, I have raised a user RfC on Jason Gastrich, see ]. - ] <sup>]]</sup>/<sub>]]</sub> ] '']'' 12:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
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*'''Rebuttal''': Everything above was posted to skew the voting and make people turn against me and bias their viewpoint of the nomination and the entry. It's a pretty sick tactic. It shows they care little about the actual strength of the entry; which should be the only thing considered. Since the "warnings" have been posted, some people have even said that they've voted ''only'' because of the alleged misconduct. Consequently, they and the people who are engaging in this witchhunt should be ashamed of themselves. They've done irreparable damage to their integrity and to Misplaced Pages. --] 00:59, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

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Revision as of 00:59, 23 January 2006

Mike Randall

Not a voteIf you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Misplaced Pages contributors. Misplaced Pages has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.

However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end.

Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts: {{subst:spa|username}}; suspected canvassed users: {{subst:canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst:csm|username}} or {{subst:csp|username}}.

This AfD process has been further disrupted by a suspected sockpuppet of Jason Gastrich (talk · contribs), Wiggins2 (talk · contribs). See his contributions: they consist almost solely of soliciting others to come to these AfDs and vote keep.


As a result of the serial disruption of AfD and other questionable behaviour, I have raised a user RfC on Jason Gastrich, see Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Jason Gastrich. - Just zis  Guy, you know? / AfD? 12:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


  • Rebuttal: Everything above was posted to skew the voting and make people turn against me and bias their viewpoint of the nomination and the entry. It's a pretty sick tactic. It shows they care little about the actual strength of the entry; which should be the only thing considered. Since the "warnings" have been posted, some people have even said that they've voted only because of the alleged misconduct. Consequently, they and the people who are engaging in this witchhunt should be ashamed of themselves. They've done irreparable damage to their integrity and to Misplaced Pages. --Jason Gastrich 00:59, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

The school he's president of might be notable, but he isn't. Delete. A.J.A. 05:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


  • Delete. - WarriorScribe 06:35, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. hius qualifications are from a diploma mill. self-styled religious leader.Blnguyen 06:38, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • There seems to be some sort of purging of certain religious figures going on, and it is becoming difficult to stick to the assumption of good faith. This one is an Easy Keep, via Misplaced Pages:Notability. "Published authors, editors, and photographers who have written books with an audience of 5,000 or more or in periodicals with a circulation of 5,000 or more." This subject meets the qualification with two of the publications he edited/wrote for.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jaysuschris (talk • contribs) .
  • There's no reason to doubt good faith if the complete information is not in the article and a deletion nomination is made based on what is there, as well as the record of the article writer for posting a number of articles about people of questionable notability. If there is information available that makes the person notable according to WP:BIO, perhaps passing on laziness (or an attempt to inflate contribution numbers by posting many small, largely substanceless articles instead of a few, good, informative articles) might better serve the purpose of Misplaced Pages. What do you think? - WarriorScribe 07:00, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I think the first priority is not to delete articles that don't seem up to snuff, but to make them better. Perhaps the accusation of laziness applies somewhere in this mess. Four seconds on google gets you the circulation numbers for the publications the subject edited. That's all it takes to know this is a keep. Not to mention his position at his institution. - Jaysus Chris 07:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I can see your point, but I think that deleting articles that are not up to snuff should be some level of priority, if not the first. I would add that it's not up to the reader to do the research to see if the party or institution is notable--something in the article should indicate that, even if it's a short article that the writer intends to come back to, later. For example, I intend to start adding articles on some writers of history and some scientists that I think should get some coverage, but if I were to do that and only add as a "stub," I think I'd make it a point to get the notability in there--something other than "is a professor and author." Neither of those things is good enough and it would serve me right if someone came along an deleted it because it contained insufficient information. We all have time issues and we can all understand that one might want to start an article and add to it, later. That's cool. Get whatever makes that person or institution notable in there, first. Then, if you have to come back to it later (maybe even much later), it'll probably still be there, even if still a "stub." Sorry...I have no sympathy for lazy writers. I'm a tad "old school" that way. - WarriorScribe 07:40, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • It's true that the reader shouldn't have to hunt for notability. But when, through the magic of Misplaced Pages, we become the editors, we have an obligation to make sure we're not deleting useful information. I guess that's what this process is all about, but I think the default position should be "let's see if this is appropriate" versus "AFD anything I'm not familiar with that doesn't make a bold claim for notability". My opinion. - Jaysus Chris 08:00, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Well, there's a difference, too--a fine one, I'll grant--between what some might view as "notable" (Wiki's standards are a tad over-encompassing, after all) and what is "useful." These kinds of articles are not generally useful. They read like bios from corporate literature, and too often don't qualify as encyclopedic. However, I certainly think that your opinion is well-considered and valid, even if I'm not convinced that anyone is really taking the latter "default position." - WarriorScribe 12:09, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Some think that deleting articles risks losing valuable information, just because that valuable information or proof of notability isn't there yet. It doesn't. The article can be recreated with those things without being speedily deleted, and articles have been recreated in this way. See Godcasting - it was initially (rightly) deleted, then eventually recreated with the necessary information it lacked the first time, reAfDed and kept. Admittedly there was a lot of unnecessary drama on the way and I could probably pick a better example, but then it was a Christian-related subject, so so much for the evil atheistic cabal. --Malthusian (talk) 11:44, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Subject is notable enough. Logophile 07:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, anyone can write religious magazines, every school has a leader, and apparently pretty much anyone can get a diploma from LBU. To meet WP:BIO we need evidence that people outside himself and his flock have paid him or his magazines any attention. Google searches on him and his magazines suggest that they haven't. --Malthusian (talk) 09:24, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Notable. California12 02:51, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - there is nothing in the article that suggests notability. If he falls under some criterion from WP:BIO - for example, having written for a magazine with a circulation of at least 5,000 - then evidence for this needs to be clearly documented here. If this will be the case, I will change my vote. Until then, we've got a person who does not sound like he has done anything significant enough to be considered notable. --Pierremenard 11:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per Pierremenard. I detest nn-bio's. Zunaid 14:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - As far as I can tell he's a pastor (hundreds of thousands of those) and he's the president of a diploma mill (don't want to guess how many presidents of diploma mills there have ever been). Nothing about any of this says "notable". Cyde Weys 2M-VOTE 16:52, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
President of a diploma mill? It is these sorts of ignorant accusations that make me upset. He's the president of a regionally accredited university. If you would have bothered to look at Baptist_Bible_College_-_Springfield,_Missouri, you would have known this. Will you consider changing your vote, now? --Jason Gastrich 21:20, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, see List of unaccredited institutions of higher learning and the Louisiana Baptist University. - Just zis  Guy, you know? / AfD? 23:22, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
A guy who is the head of a university, but has no proper degrees from a proper university, would suggest that the "university" he leads is some tin-pot crackpot self-declared intellectual hotbed. Has this guy ever published any of his work in a respected research journal?? Blnguyen 23:55, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Published by whom? Read by whom? Nothing's stopping YOU from making it better and relevant.
  • Strong Keep university-related topics are notable. Cynical 21:48, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Edits two magazines with circulation > 5,000 and thus satisfies WP:BIO. The LBU stuff doesn't reflect well on him as a person, but doesn't really matter one way or the other for bio standards. -Colin Kimbrell 21:57, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. I read the article very carefully and did not see a single reference to anything notable that he did. He went to this school and that (I went to schools too), he's had this job and that (I've had jobs too)...but no mention of anything he did that made some kind of difference, or gained him noteriety. So he's the president of an unaccredited institution...what did he do that makes him interesting to the public at large? bcatt 22:12, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Comment: Edits two magazines with circulation greater than 5,000, which certainly seems to satisfy the spirit of WP:BIO. -Colin Kimbrell 00:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Comment: Is I said before, he's the president of a regionally accredited university; which is the highest accreditation that the government can provide in the United States. Will this make you change your vote? --Jason Gastrich 02:01, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
What argument is that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Louisiana_Baptist_University_people_%28second_nomination%29 "Something very funny happened today. I got two identical emails from Jason Gastrich through Misplaced Pages. You can make up your own mind as to whether this qualifies for meat-puppetry or stacking the vote. Here's the email. --Cyde Weys 16:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)"


Hello,
I noticed that you were listed as a Christian Wikipedian. I am, too. I wanted to let you know that in the last 24 hours, someone has nominated 12 Christian biography entries for deletion. Not only does this seem like bad faith and an affront to a lot of hard work, but I'd like you to come and vote on the entries. These nominations seem peculiar because some people are even presidents of universities and well known authors.
Below are some of the links that need attention. Thanks for your consideration.
By the way, I recently started an organization called Wiki4Christ (see http://wiki4christ.com). If you’d like to join a network of Christians with a purpose on Misplaced Pages, please see our site!
Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich


http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Louisiana_Baptist_University_people_%28second_nomination%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/J._Otis_Ledbetter
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ron_Moseley
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mike_Randall
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Thomas_Ice
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/James_Combs
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Neal_Weaver
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Daniel_Dorim_Kim

Thats insinuating bullshit. There is nothing wrong with alerting users to the fact that a bunch of delete-wannabies are attacking articles and demanding they get deleted without having any good reasons at all for the delete except the POV rantings of a guy that for some reason got to be an admin. Where do you get the facts to backup the claim that User Jason Gastrich used multiple accounts to further his articles? Now this is going out hand. When you people turn to personal attacks and blatant lies and slandering, it gets personal. Itake 01:13, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Gastrich is saying those who want to delete the articles have "bad faith." If that's not pressuring for ballot stuffing nothing is. No insinuation. Facts. http://en.wikipedia.org/Category:Misplaced Pages:Suspected_sockpuppets_of_Jason_Gastrich Arbustoo 03:48, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Oh, you'll get used to it. Opposing any opinion of Gastrich is "bad faith," "harrassment," "persecution of Christians" and, anyway, you do it because you're an atheist who "hates Jesus." Why, I'm downright scum. It's a cross I bear. Mark K. Bilbo 03:55, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I never called you scum. If I did though, it would be only a fraction of the negative things you commonly say to Christians. As you know very well, I've never cursed you, but I've summarized the things you've said, with cited quotations, for your Misplaced Pages entry;(see Talk:Mark K. Bilbo#Controversy) only to have a couple of your friends delete them. For those who wish to see the truth about Mark Bilbo, I've compiled 11 or 12 links to his statements on Usenet where he swears at Christians, calls them names, and mocks Jesus and God. So, as I was saying, I don't judge you and I don't call you names. However, you frequently open your mouth and do reputable atheists a disservice by the things that come out of it. --Jason Gastrich 05:28, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep notable enough --Vizcarra 02:03, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete not notable. Arbustoo 03:48, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep—notable per WP:BIO: chief editor of and regular contributor to magazines, one with a circulation of over 5000 copies and membership including some 3500 Baptist preachers, another one with a circulation of over 32,000 copies, reaching an estimated 100,000 people. The latter writes about him: "An interim editor, Mike Randall, was appointed and subsequently became permanent editor in May" (1995).... "He is well known for his business acumen, ministry and publishing experience and has earned the respect of a broad cross-section of the Fellowship.". This article cannot be voted away if Delete voters do not even try to explain why WP:BIO would not apply here. AvB ÷ talk 17:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
"Dear Advertiser: Thank you for your interest in the Baptist Bible Tribune... The Tribune circulation is over 32,000, reaching over 100,000 people". So they claim to have a circulation of over 32,000 - to a prospective advertiser no less. That does not meet WP:BIO, as they claim to have over 32,000 readers, but there is no third-party verification here. --Malthusian (talk) 20:43, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes - "Every foreign missionary of the Baptist Bible Fellowship International (currently almost 900) and all the students in our approved colleges receive a copy." So not only is it handed out free, but you don't even get a say in whether you get one or not. That means that 32,000 figure has to be taken with an even bigger grain of salt (several grains of salt?) We deleted Bath Impact, the Bath University fish wrapper, for this reason. --Malthusian

(talk) 20:45, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

If the figure is not correct, they are swindling their advertizers (at USD 1000 a page no less). Somehow I do not find the argument that we need third-party confirmation convincing. AvB ÷ talk 21:25, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I'm not saying the figure is a lie. I'm saying that sending a free magazine to 32,000 people who are automatically signed up when they enter college is not the same as 32,000 people actually going to a newsagent and buying it. Advertising is an extremely painful market and everyone involved has finely-tuned bullshit detectors. When a free newspaper tells an advertiser they have 32,000 readers, they will automatically think in terms of how many people actually read it and don't just dump it straight in the bin. We need to do the same. --Malthusian (talk) 00:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Are there anywhere near 31,100 students enrolled in Baptist colleges? AvB ÷ talk 01:46, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete non-notable in my book. His contributions to the magazine mentioned by AvB are just reports on what's happening at his school rather than significant articles. Would we have an article on the guy who puts together the weather report of a national newspaper? By the way, I, like Stuffofinterest, would like to think that semi-notable atheist figures would be given the same respect... and deleted. --Spondoolicks 19:41, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Even if this were so, that would leave The Baptist Preacher. Which means he is notable amongst Baptists which in MY book is sufficient qualification to warrant inclusion in WP. As far as I know this may well be one of the reasons for the very low cutoff point of 5,000 copies. However, The Baptist Bible Tribune is not online. How can you be sure that Randall only contributes "reports on what's happening at his school"? Oh, and if you can point me to an atheist's (or indeed anyone's) bio article being AfD'd while having met the 5,000 WP:BIO limit, I'll be happy to come over and vote and argue for that article to be kept. AvB ÷ talk 20:35, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Serious meatpuppetry in progress here. Stifle 00:30, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete Article is about unnotable with promotion links to his websites/ministry. This is basically a spam article. Arbustoo 02:42, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Abstain with preference to merge. Little known, but would be great if merged. Further Note: I was brought here, like many others by Wiggins2, or as he wants to be called, "Wiggie". I think we shouldn't be so quick to shoot him down, as I, & probably many others, are grateful for his post to draw our attention to this subject. I wouldn't mind if the other "side" did the same. But we cannot ignore the fact that this is defintely going to open wikipedia into two halves; Those who want to keep. Those who don't. I.E. Christians, & others. However, this should not be about religion. I would be ashamed of the christians on here if they only voted to keep the articles because they were christian orientated. This should strictly be business as usual, even though it does seem strange an editor would nominate so many christian articles. Maybe a hidden agenda? If an article's crap, then it should be deleted. Being an inclusionist, I will probably keep the most mundane article. However, the list of notable people list is like many others, & should not be here. To do so would be obvious bias. I ask everyone to not be drawn in with a strict "You're wrong, I'm right" situation, but be open & find a way to keep peaceful.... Spawn Man 04:23, 22 January 2006 (UTC). BTW, I hope my vote isn't discounted, I count myself as a influencial editor...
  • Keep The individual clearly exists Kurt Weber 17:10, 22 January 2006 (UTC)