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Revision as of 01:07, 23 January 2006

List of Louisiana Baptist University people

ATTENTION! If you came to this page because a friend asked you to do so, or because you saw a message on an online forum asking you to do so, please note that this is not a vote on whether or not this article is deleted. Despite what you may have been told, it is not true that everyone who shows up to a deletion discussion gets an automatic vote just for showing up. The deletion process is designed to determine the consensus of opinion of Misplaced Pages editors; for this reason comments from users whose histories do not show experience with or contributions to Misplaced Pages are traditionally given less weight and may be discounted entirely. You are not barred from participating in the discussion, no matter how new you may be, and we welcome reasoned opinions and rational discussion based upon our policies and guidelines. However, ballot stuffing is pointless. There is no ballot to stuff. This is not a vote, and decisions are not made purely upon weight of numbers.

This AfD process has been further disrupted by a sockpuppet of Jason Gastrich, Wiggins2. See his contributions: they consist almost solely of soliciting others to come to these AfDs and vote keep. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cyde (talk • contribs) .

As a result of the serial disruption of AfD and other questionable behaviour, I have raised a user RfC on Jason Gastrich, see Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Jason Gastrich. - Just zis  Guy, you know? / AfD? 12:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Wiggins asked people to vote. He didn't tell them how to vote. It's sad that you accuse me of having a sockpuppet when Wiggie simply happens to be of the same mind. Many Christian people think alike. --Jason Gastrich 06:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Solicitation is never a good idea. Besides, though I am not Atheist, I can simply look up a bunch of Atheist people in Misplaced Pages and solicit them to vote to delete this article. Wiggins behaves the exact same way as you do, and the edits on that account are mostly only about this article and other articles related to Jason Gastrich. Pretty blatant, eh? I would have already filed a RfC, but the paperwork is too tedious. Sycthos 06:54, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

List of mostly non-notable people connected (sometimes loosely) with a diploma mill attended by the originator of the article. A.J.A. 02:44, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. A.J.A. 02:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep. This list is like other university lists on Misplaced Pages. Helpful and informative. --Jason Gastrich 02:47, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Comment Gastrich would be the article originator who attends the mill in question. The original nomination, BTW, was removed for not being properly listed and never recieved the full vote or discussion. A.J.A. 02:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Comment: The accusations that Louisiana Baptist University is a diploma mill are being debated. However, if you read the talk page for the entry, you will see that the university clearly doesn't meet the criteria for a diploma mill (e.g. it has a campus and on-campus students/teachers/courses, founded in 1973, has 1100+ students, has lenghty degree and writing requirements, requires lengthy dissertations and theses, etc.). The only criteria it does fulfill is that it's unaccredited, but many Christian institutions elect to avoid governmental accreditation and there is no evidence that LBU tried for it and didn't get it. --Jason Gastrich 18:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, in the US the government does not accredit schools; private organizations do that. Thankfully. Kurt Weber 15:43, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Those aren't the criteria for a diploma mill. A diploma mill confers "earned" degrees for nonexistent or grossly deficient accademic work. Lack of accreditation creates a strong presumption that a school is a mill, and I've seen nothing from you to rebut that. You misrepresent the nature of accreditation: there is no "governmental accreditation", only private agencies recognized as legit by the government, one of which is explicitly Christian (and agencies not recognized, like the one that "accredits" LBU). A.J.A. 20:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, you haven't read what I wrote and what others have written. I took the 10 well-recognized criteria and showed that LBU only met 1.5/10. I also wrote above things that are opposite a diploma mill's standards. Plus, I've given my personal experience regarding the numbers of years it has taken to earn my degrees from LBU. I wrote much (or all) of this at ]. So, with all due respect, if you close your eyes, you can see nothing quite clearly. --Jason Gastrich 22:01, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, I have read it. There's no 1.5 about it. Claiming bogus accreditation isn't half a criteria, it's the whole thing. And as was already pointed out to you, the two are the main point. You've ignored that in favor of the false precision of repeating 1.5, when it's not a matter of numbers but rigor. Likewise, it can take as long as a real degree but without academic rigor it's still a diploma mill. A.J.A. 00:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

LBU doesn't "claim bogus accreditation." No, it isn't the whole thing. If it was, the list would be absurd and invalid. Furthermore, who is to say that it's the main point? Oh yeah, Dave Horn (WarriorScribe). Don't be so quick to take his word as gospel. --Jason Gastrich 06:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Ho, hum...Gastrich gets it wrong again and tries to sneak in a reference to his stolen-domain-name group (which allows no rebuttal) and his lies? Several of them have been exposed, rebutted, or refuted here:

• • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9

• • ... and he has run from every one of them...and then some.

• Gastrich has done a pretty good job of stretching out his throat and handing out knives in the last 24 hours or so. You'd think he'd want to keep me out of it; but perhaps he's a glutton for punishment. - WarriorScribe 07:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• RoyBoy already pointed out the idiocy of Gastrich's claims about LBU and his "score" with respect to a list that he picked (out of many that could have been picked). RoyBoy was quite right to point out that the it was not an all-or-nothing proposition with respect to the list, but Gastrich just can't seem to get it. Draw your own conclusions. LBU does not teach research skills, investigatory skills, nor critical thinking skills. It has exceptionally lax standards, in practice and is sub-standard as an educational institution. Gastrich's own alleged "rebuttal" to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible is actually a good example, since it served as the basis for his "Master of Arts" from the school and, according to Gastrich, also served as the basis for his "doctorate." I'll be looking over the alleged "thesis" and "dissertation" when I'm in that part of the country, come April, but if what I have seen thus far is any indication, given Gastrich's rather superficial thinking skills and almost non-existent research skills, demonstrated thus far, I don't expect to be surprised. - WarriorScribe 07:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

AJA, you call yourself a Christian, but you are very quick to offend them. Do you realize that there are 1100+ students at LBU and thousands of graduates? I'm sure your callous and erroneous accusations are quite offensive to all of them. WWJD? --Jason Gastrich 06:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Their bogus accreditation is the whole criteria. No, not criteria: "GetEducated.com’s Top 10 Red Flags – Online Diploma Mills" Red flags are not criteria you can check off mechanistically, and it never had any kind of authoritative status anyway.

I like how you seem to think a real Christian would never say anything that might offend the likes of Bill Gothard. A.J.A. 06:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• To find out what Gastrich thinks Jesus would do, consult this previous encounter that included another Christian. I find two things interesting about Gastrich's use of "WWJD.'" The first is that Gastrich has been asked this many times with respect to things that he writes or his own acts, and the reference above is the only direct response that I've ever seen. The second is that it's also interesting that, in light of his actions, he's been asked that a couple of times, hasn't answered, and now copy-cats the question to someone else. - WarriorScribe 06:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Oh, and it's almost amusing to see Gastrich complain about someone else offending Christians. You know, it wouldn't take much to go into the Google archives and find lots of examples of Gastrich doing exactly that. - WarriorScribe 07:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Funny Gastrich didn't mention Steve Levicoff and his views of

LBU from the same section. Here's a list from Levicoff's book, let's see if LBU meets that criteria.

All I've seen from Levicoff is someone posting an alleged quote of his on Usenet. While on his "sabbatical" job hunt, Horn is supposed to be getting his book from the library. Maybe he can scan a page that mentions LBU. If he could, then we'd finally have one somewhat reputable source calling LBU a diploma mill. Until that time, we have zero. --Jason Gastrich 06:14, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nomination. I thought we had categories for this list junk anyways (though I'd support this being deleted from categories as well). -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 02:56, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. List of notable people connected with a wonderful school.--Hvnhlpr 03:08, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

note: This is Heaven Helpers first edit in wikipedia. David D. (Talk) 04:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• Merge into Louisiana Baptist University. This article is vanity on its own, but the main article has an incomplete section on alumini. However, many sections, such as "General alumni," will be removed, as Misplaced Pages is WP:NOT a directory ("indiscriminate collection of information"). Sycthos 03:15, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete if merging is not possible. Sycthos 02:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Notable school. But may I suggest renaming it? SWD316 03:33, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • The school itself already has an article. A.J.A. 04:16, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

This is irrelvant. As it has been shown, 60 universities have entries and a list of people. --Jason Gastrich 22:13, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

It's relevant to his vote, which had a rational about the notability of the school but suggested renaming it, which strongly suggests he thought he was voting on whether there should be any article about it at all. The other lists aren't relevant because if we take out the deadwood (i.e., the red links and the links that are going to go red and the people only marginally connected to the mill), there's hardly anything left. Plenty of schools have a lot of notable graduates. The mill you're wasting your time at? Not so much. A.J.A. 22:38, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• Merge as per Scythos *Delete Dlyons493 Talk 03:38, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Delete Non-notable school, school has an entry at Misplaced Pages, superficially padded list of persons, mostly of little or no notability. Not helpful or informative, a space waster - WarriorScribe 03:39, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nomination. Are these types of lists even used for accredited universities? Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of unnotable people. If there are any notables put them on the university page. David D. (Talk) 04:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they're used for many universities, institutes, and colleges. --Jason Gastrich 05:15, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Wow, you're right. That is a very impressive list of 60 universities. Is there are seperate category for non-accredited universities? Or will we have to create a new category for this list? David D. (Talk) 05:35, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I know. It's a good thing and par for the course on Misplaced Pages. There isn't an unaccredited category specifically for lists right now. You can create one if you like. --Jason Gastrich 05:39, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep This is a great list. LBU is a great university with many impressive grads.--God's child 06:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

note: to date, this user has nine edits. Four on Afd's related to Jason Gastrich. Amazingly this new user found the first nomination that was not even listed in Afd. David D. (Talk) 06:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

that is something to be asked on wp:rfcu for an answer Yuckfoo 06:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

comment This wouldn't be the first time Gastrich has tried to astroturf an AfD vote. Mark K. Bilbo 18:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• keep please this list is informative and too big to put on the main article Yuckfoo 06:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Comment An attempt at vote-stacking. A.J.A. 06:50, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Merge into Louisiana Baptist University. Logophile 07:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. It is probably libellous to claim without clear references that people are "graduates" of a diploma mill. Whoever can be verified as actually themselves claiming a degree from LBU can be mentioned in the main article. Tupsharru 08:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Borderline libellous per Tups, borderline listcruft, borderline lack of notability, and Gastrich's vote recruiting tips my teetering vote over all three lines. --Malthusian (talk) 09:19, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• weak keep could do with renaming "List of notable alumni" or something like that. Jcuk 11:40, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete article as nn list of mostly nn people. WP:NOT an indiscriminate collection of information. I would not oppose merging only the more notable names who already have WP articles into the main LBU article. Zunaid 13:24, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep* It is our constitutual right to be able to speak on any subject that we choose and not to discriminate on basis of religion--Michaelwmoss 17:11, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Dude, your right to do something does not entitle you to do it on someone else's property. This article should be kept, but not because of anything in the Constitution. Furthermore, there is no such thing as a "constitutional right"--as the eminent 20th-century Russian-American philosopher Ayn Rand proved, the source of one's rights is man's fundamental nature as a creature that must act in his own rational self-interest for his survival, NOT in some document's fiat. Kurt Weber 15:43, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

note: to date, this user has four edits. ALL on Afd's related to Jason Gastrich. With regard to constitutional rights, who is stopping you speak? With regard to discrimination, if they are deleted it will be because they are unnotable NOT because they are Christian. David D. (Talk) 18:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

comment: This "user" needs to brush up on what a "constitutional right" actually is. Mark K. Bilbo 18:30, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Delete - mostly non-notable, a non-notable connection, and what few parts are worthy can be included on the LBU page. Constitutional rights? Gimme a break, this isn't a court. -Harvestdancer 17:13, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Merge if not delete. Mark K. Bilbo 18:32, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - The list of people isn't that long, and it appears like the more notable of them are already included in the LBU page anyway. Cyde Weys 2M-VOTE 19:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Delete This article was created by Jason Gastrich to promote his school as a mainstream institution. This is only one of around 10 articles he created promoting his religion/degree/school. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.200.116.196 (talk • contribs) .
  • Please login and sign your comments with four tildes. If you don't have a user account, register for one. Anonymous votes aren't really counted in AfDs. --Cyde Weys 2M-VOTE 20:00, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete or Merge with main article. Grimm 20:44, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Comment More vote-stacking: . A.J.A. 22:29, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete And now I see the wisdom in keeping List of unaccredited institutions of higher learning. Yes, froends, this is a list of people who are graduates from an unaccredited institution of higher learning, and yes that does mean exactly what you think it does: a diploma mill. This is more Gastrichcruft, burn it now. Just zis  Guy, you know? / AfD? 22:52, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete or merge into article on the "university", which already has a list of notable alumni. Not enough content here to merit a separate article. --Thunk 23:19, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Eusebeus 23:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, no need to merge non-notable people to parent article. JzG is right: that list of unaccrediteds is a handy place to find junk and too-fanatic-to-meet-standards when there's a question about an unknown institution supposedly of higher learning. Barno 00:04, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete there is already a (short) section for notable grads in the school article. We don't need another list. KillerChihuahua 00:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: Vote stacking accusation made here. Sycthos 00:27, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing vote stacking or wrong with encouraging people to vote. --Jason Gastrich 01:31, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Comment Funny, isn't it, that when an AfD concerns an article of yours that people never seen before come crawling out of the woodwork to vote with you? Mark K. Bilbo 14:18, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

• Delete categorize if you have to WhiteNight 01:35, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Vanity piece by Gastrich and co-agents of LBU diploma mill nonsense.Blnguyen 01:59, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom --kingboyk 03:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Guettarda 03:23, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete--nixie 04:45, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete— Dunc|☺ 09:22, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as a list of interest to very few people, apparently created just for the sake of having a list, i.e. listcruft. Stifle 17:38, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

How do you know it's of interest to very few people? There are 59 lists like it. Do you happen to know how many of those are important to how many different people? --Jason Gastrich 18:52, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Apparently the 59 others are accredited and the schools are actually rather significant on their own. Harvestdancer 20:39, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep(strong) First of all, the nom uses very subjective language. Diploma mill is a pretty crappy spin to put on things. Second, there may be someone who wants to do research on the school and its associates, why not have a page? Brokenfrog 20:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

There is a page for the school itself, which lists notable alums. This list is redundant to that page. -Harvestdancer 20:39, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

• Delete (strong) I don't see how this is necessary with the inclusion of notables on LBU's page. The discussion seems to be mostly reasonable peppered other than the personal attacks from the author. I would say that there would be vote stacking. I received notice of this from a email list headed by Jason Gastrich himself. If I could get a place to host I would be happy to post said email. To quote from that message:

"...Several weeks ago, JCSM (Jesus Christ Saves Ministries) noticed this trend and created a new ministry called Wiki4Christ. It's an organization that exists to make sure Christians have a united and represented voice on Misplaced Pages. As you may imagine, unbelievers also edit there and they actively try to silence Christian input and revert our contributions; especially Christian biographies! This is where we need you, now.

Yesterday, the entries below were nominated for deletion. This means there will be a vote on whether or not to keep them. Please come and let your voice be heard! This endeavor will only take 10-15 minutes and it will be something you can do with your online time that will further the kingdom of God. Wouldn't you like to vote to keep Christian entries on Misplaced Pages?..."

He goes on to give links to all of his articles that are noted for deletion. He also doesn't point out these articles are authored by himself. - I would say that this languaged is charged to skew voting. I have been a longtime fan and user of Wiki and this is the first time I've been interested in its process. Jazzscrub 21:05, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

This borders on paranoia "unbelievers also edit there and they actively try to silence Christian input and revert our contributions". First, I suspect that not all people voting to "revert Christian input" are "unbelievers". I challenge Jason Gastrich to offer evidence for a single case of "Christian input", that is both notable and NPOV, being successfully reverted by unbelievers. I have only seen non-notable edits and POV edits from Christians being reverted. This is not a conspiracy since we all know that the "unbleievers" who post POV and non notable contributions are also reverted. Please stop trying to provoke trouble. David D. (Talk) 21:21, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Comment: I actively try and get people to come and be a part of the Misplaced Pages community. I don't want anyone to ever come, vote, and leave. This is obvious from the verbiage on my organization's web site . --Jason Gastrich 21:51, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

You are spreading gossip about wikipedia and presenting it in an unfavorable light. Will the new editors arrive expecting hoardes of "unbelievers"? Stick to the facts. Thankyou. David D. (Talk) 22:07, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

He's also making a quite serious accusation about me personally, only he doesn't have the guts to come out and say it. All this is specifically about my nominations, so this stuff about "unbelievers" means me. Only I'm a Christian, as he was aware of before writing. So he's accusing me of being a false brother, without having the courage or honesty to say it plainly, or even the basic fidelity to Scriptural teachings to discuss it with me privately first. A.J.A. 00:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

So we can keep this on topic, I'll reply to you on your talk page. --Jason Gastrich 07:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Comment Nonsense. Your emailing specifically names articles of yours and the deletion votes ongoing. You're not "encouraging participation," you're trying to influence the AfD votes. And quite blatantly at that. Mark K. Bilbo 21:55, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep university-related topics are notable. Cynical 21:48, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Care to back that up? This isn't a university. It's an unaccredited school that happens to use the word university in its name. --Cyde Weys 22:52, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Merge any actual notables into the university article, otherwise delete. Solicited a favourable vote from me via email because I am listed as an inclusionist. I would like to point out that the inclusionist motto is "with truth preserved."...not "with vanity preserved." Well established, accredited institutions usually do warrant a seperate list of notable graduates...Harvard, for example, is very likely to have a huge list of notable graduates which would be too long for the main article...but LBU's list (even if they are all truly notable) is short enough to fit fine into the main article. If this article is kept, then I vote to have an undeletable list of all people who have read the Invisible Pink Unicorn article. bcatt 21:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Merge any actual notables into the university article, otherwise delete. --Devein 22:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep or merge with original article. This AfD appears to be in danger of going off-topic. This is suppose to be about whether or not the article is worth keeping, not about whether or not LBU is a "degree mill" or not, or the merits of accreditation, or other stuff this AfD is bringing up. Let's get back on topic, does this article deserve to exist? I say yes, why not, otherwise, we should begin removing other school's lists. It could probably be paired down to be just notable alumni, but it still deserves to exist.--Azathar 23:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: The quoted phrase from your post above, "or the merits of accreditation," is incorrect. Misplaced Pages is WP:NOT a directory of vanity. I agree with the merge, but Louisiana Baptist University is an unaccredited institution of higher learning and is not notable enough to deserve its own page for alumini. The only thing more ridiculous is that there are vanity biographies made of these non-notable people featured on the alumini. Finally, Jason Gastrich is making personal attacks and encouraging people who obviously do not know the entire situation to blindly support him via email. I am not criticizing Christianity, but this method of vote stacking is inexplicably ludicrous. I am trying very hard to restraining myself from making stronger comments, but that may not be possible in the near future. Sycthos 01:54, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: Upon reviewing the Wiki 4 Christ site, and its objectives, I have several comments to make. It is fine that you are creating this organization, but Misplaced Pages's vanity rules take priority over everything. Lists of alumini on unaccredited universities and biographies on non-notable Christian missionaries are unacceptable. If you have a dispute, create your own wiki site. Sycthos 02:00, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: Thanks for your comment. However, I disagree with you and I believe that some unaccredited universities deserve lists of people associated with them. For instance, Bob Jones University is unaccredited. Why shouldn't they have a list? The fact remains that there are many notable alumni and a list is a good thing to have, so they can be organized and, well, listed. The fact that they haven't sought government accreditation means little; especially in light of its alumni and academic requirements. --Jason Gastrich 02:06, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, BJU is accredited. A.J.A. 02:17, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Gastrich you made two errors: LBU did apply for accreditation and was denied. And BJU does have accreditation from Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS), Accreditation Commission, see .

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.200.116.196 (talk • contribs) .

I don't see anything about them applying and being denied. Also, this link doesn't tell me that they are accredited, now. I've read that they have applied for TRACS accreditation and were waiting on their decision. --Jason Gastrich 02:31, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The LBU 1998 request by TRACS (the people who approved BJU) was denied-- this was explained once to you already on the LBU talk page. A discussion about the inquiry with Steve Levicoff and the denial of the approval in 2000.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.200.116.196 (talk • contribs) .

The search isn't working on my computer, but this article states that Bob Jones University has recieved accreditation. Sycthos 02:46, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

To be exact, they have candidacy status , which means they're in basic compliance with the standards. It's apparently a kind of probationary accreditation. IIRC, even before they were accredited BJU was considered to have one of the top accountancy programs in the country, which to my mind is enough to overcome the presumption that an unaccredited school is a mill. (Still wouldn't want to go there.) A.J.A. 03:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Well, we could first remove anything from this list that wasn't WP:Verifiable from Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. That would be the barest of minumums, and is absolutley beyond negotiation. We could then take the little (if anything) that is left and merge it into its parent article, probably deleting the redirect as useless. We could then have a bun-fight on the article's talk page about what is meaningful to keep, ending up with like four names. Or we could simply delete this now, as its only purpose is to provide a list of articles that are AfD candidates as they don't meet WP:BIO. - brenneman 02:14, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: According to a google test, Bob Jones University has 1,010,000 results, while Louisiana Baptist University only has 782. Bob Jones University is clearly more notable than Louisiana Baptist University, so that is a different case. Sycthos 02:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Google isn't the only indicator of notablity. --Jason Gastrich 02:31, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Very true. However, from a Yahoo! test, Louisiana Baptist University scored 1,570 hits while Bob Jones University scored 772,000. The margin of difference is simply too large to consider otherwise. From an Alexa test, Bob Jones University has a ranking of 82,173, while Louisiana Baptist University dosen't even have a ranking. Sycthos 02:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Delete As others have stated, these seems partially redundant with the notables list, and the author's arguments do not persuade me of this list's worthiness (or indeed, the worthiness of many of the list's items) KrazyCaley 03:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Merge, if not delete. I may be an inclusionist, but I'm not stupid. —Nightstallion (?) 06:59, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Merge any actual notables into the university article, otherwise delete. ··· rWd · Talk ··· 07:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Merge into Louisiana Baptist University. Alphax  07:30, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Merge with Louisiana Baptist University. Yes, Gastrich, I'm an inclusionist. I also have absolutely no problem with alerting people to ongoing votes, and think that people who vote against simply because of that are being incredibly dense, but that doesn't mean I don't weigh the article's merits once alerted. I'm not going to pass judgment on whether LSU is a diploma mill or not, but don't think I'm just a tool to use for voting keep on every article on the deletion listings. I'm going to give each of the articles you sent to me careful consideration, and will vote accordingly. If you were expecting me to charge in and vote keep without reading anything, you don't know me very well. Rogue 9 10:31, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Merge. Useful content, but doesn't need to stand in an article of its own. --StuffOfInterest 12:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Abstain. As soon as this started turning into a Christian vs. everyone else debate I lost interest. Unfortunately, many of those voting keep are claiming that everyone else is anti-Christian. This wasn't so, but if it is repeated enough it may become truth. --StuffOfInterest 20:30, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep We can't just throw out something related to something intellectual (in this case, a university) while other articles related to things like sport are kept. It is not of stub length, and is useful and informative. This could save someone a lot of searching. - 13:14, 20 January 2006 (UTC) The Great Gavini
• Keep. Useful content is useful content; keep it around. Kerobaros 13:17, 20 January 2006 (UTC)kerobaros
• Strong Keep This is a perfectly viable encyclopedia article on a public institution that could very well be the subject of someone's research in the future. In such an event, wikipedia would come in handy. That is what wikipedia is for. I haven't heard a single good argument to why this should be deleted. There is no wikipedia article on "Diplomamill". User:Itake|Itake]] 14:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • This is not a discussion about the article on Louisiana Baptist University (which is not a public institution). That article has not been nominated for deletion. This is only about the list called List of Louisiana Baptist University people. BTW, there is an article on diploma mill. Tupsharru 15:00, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• keeep I think it can be notable and it is interesting. Gubbubu 22:42, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

abstain I don't know enough about this here yet so I'm abstaining for now. But it seems to me that alot of these articles here, the bio's I mean, pass into the notable stage and are verifiable. I'm not a christian by a long shot and I have issues with fundamentalism in a big way but that doesn't mean these folks don't deserve to be here. The criteria for me here is, "is this article useful as a way to initiate research" and clearly it is. If I was interested in, say, the history of baptist thinking or wanted to make a wash list of baptist notable, I could use this as a start. A PERFECT WIKI ARTICLE in my opion.

And just to be above board here, I was asked to come vote here by the author. This is not vote stacking or Ballot stuffing , it is simply campaigning. Those of you opposed to this author or these entries will just have to trust that the people who are brought in can make up their own minds regardless of how they got here. Personally, I'm questioning the objectivity and neutrality of both sides here. This is an encyclopedia without page limits and in order to avoid charges of bias especially in these controversial areas, we should always err on the side of inclusiveness.Ginar 14:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

These articles aren't controversial in any way. The self-proclaimed "deletecrew" that haunts this site makes topics like this controversial by attacking them because of their own POV views.Itake 14:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Question Comment - How many people are here because Gastrich emailed all the inclusionists on the vain hope that you automatically vote to keep articles? An argument for delete can be made that should be acceptable to inclusionists - put the valuable intellectual content where it belongs, in the LBU article, and no content is lost. I know that there are several such inclusionists here, although since Gastrich used email instead of talk pages, there's no Wiki trail of proof like there is for his wikichrist crowd. -Harvestdancer 15:55, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - If this page gets deleted, another obvious candidate for deletion is List of LBU people which is only a redirect to this page. -Harvestdancer 15:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Could you atleast try and hide your own POV like all the others do? Seriously, I'm asking again. Give me a good argument why this should be deleted. Itake 16:05, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I already did. Unlike Harvard, LBU is not as significant an institution of higher learning. Some schools warrant their own page of notable alumni simply because of the size of such a list. This page, on the other hand, can easily be included in the LBU article without any loss of content and therefore, by mergist principles, does not warrant a separate page. Will you try to hide your POV, like you say everyone but the two of us tries to do? -Harvestdancer 16:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Delete: per nom. Justin Eiler 16:16, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I do hide my own POV. And comparing the LBU to Harvard is nothing short of silly. They aren't even in the same league. The LBU is noteworthy in its own way. Its an american institution, which is why it listed on the english wikipedia. On the Swedish wikipedia, alot of small schools have their own entries. None complains. So no, thats not a good reason. There are no other articles with these names, so there's no name conflict. There's no nothing, except silly notions about the standard of education on the school. This guy is by all accounts an important person, so he deserves a page. Itake 18:01, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Something very funny happened today. I got two identical emails from Jason Gastrich through Misplaced Pages. You can make up your own mind as to whether this qualifies for meat-puppetry or stacking the vote. Here's the email. --Cyde Weys 16:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Hello,

I noticed that you were listed as a Christian Wikipedian. I am, too. I wanted to let you know that in the last 24 hours, someone has nominated 12 Christian biography entries for deletion. Not only does this seem like bad faith and an affront to a lot of hard work, but I'd like you to come and vote on the entries. These nominations seem peculiar because some people are even presidents of universities and well known authors.

Below are some of the links that need attention. Thanks for your consideration.

By the way, I recently started an organization called Wiki4Christ (see http://wiki4christ.com). If you’d like to join a network of Christians with a purpose on Misplaced Pages, please see our site!

Sincerely,

Jason Gastrich

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Louisiana_Baptist_University_people_%28second_nomination%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/J._Otis_Ledbetter

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ron_Moseley

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mike_Randall

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Thomas_Ice

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/James_Combs

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Neal_Weaver

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Daniel_Dorim_Kim

comment I got this email to. And I'm here because of it. But I can make up my own mind about these things. I'm insulted by the implication that just because I was led here by this email, someone I can't distinguish or discern. I CAN. I won't vote automatically to keep these articles but I'm really questioning the objectivity of both sides here. Equating a campaining email like this with vote stacking, ballot box stuffing, etc. does not follow. He's simply fishing for support and there is not a damn thing wrong with that. Now, I'm not saying that the author is not biased or that he does not have a POV. Its obvious he does and its obvious what it is. But CLEARLY, many of the people who are voting to delete here HAVE a POV and it is EQUALLY OBVIOUS. The question for me is, can we verify this article, is the list a useful research tool, and can it be made to confirm to the NPOV requirements of the wiki. Ginar 16:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

there's obviously a lot of emotion on both sides and for me, that's a red flag for bias and personal involvement. Maybe both sides need to take a step back from the computer screen and evaluate their positions and statements on this. Ginar 16:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

You can't have it both ways though. When the "Wiki4Christ" or whatever club goes out and solicits votes it's "campaigning". But if I were to go out and solicit votes for deletion I would get accused by Jason Gastrich and others of being some sort of evil atheist censorship cabal. I find the hypocrisy in this AfD alarming. And if you'll look below you'll see that meat puppetry is starting to have some success ... look at those various keep votes from users with hardly any edits. --Cyde Weys 23:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't see campaining for the delete side as a bad thing either. And I'm seeing a lot of hypocrisy on both sides. You know, both sides are adopting a "holier than the other guy" the "other side is evil" stance. Can't you see it? I'm abstaining from these votes because I think both sides really need to take an objective look at their actions and commentsGinar 18:52, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Don't start crying now. And try to keep the users religious views out of this. Misplaced Pages is for everyone, not your elite cadre of people with no life and +10 000 edits. Everyone can vote. Also, this is an encyclopedia, not a gaming club. Use english, not made up words like "meat puppet" (what is that?). Itake 23:24, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Um, the term "meatpuppet" appears in the official policy document WP:SOCK. It wasn't just made up on the spur of the moment. Mark K. Bilbo 00:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, solely based upon the merits of the article. The actions being taken here on either side are divisive and very, very troublesome. Silensor 16:37, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I've noticed no actions taken by the so-called deletionist 'side' that compare with vote-stacking, meatpuppetry, personal attacks, and above all, the attempt to divide Misplaced Pages into martyred Christians and the atheist cabal. There is absolutely nothing wrong with nominating an article for deletion that doesn't actually contravene policy in good faith, as some people are trying to make out; that is what AfD is for, so editors can nominate articles they think aren't acceptable and leave it to others to decide. Making a fuss just because something is nominated, almost before people have even begun to vote, shows either a) lack of knowledge of the deletion process or b) lack of confidence in the ability of the article to survive outside scrutiny. I know the only thing worse than making sides is picking one, but really, there is no need to try to be even-handed just for the sake of it here. --Malthusian (talk) 16:48, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Nice, but very silly rant. What was the point? Itake 18:01, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Sarcasm is not so Christian. His point is the last time you participated in an AfD was Aug 2004. i would have thought that was obvious. David D. (Talk) 18:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Neither is being an ass. The last time I participated in an AfD has very little to do this. Itake 18:56, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm an ass for stating the obvious? Gastrich e-mailed you to participate and here you are. That is neither POV or controversial its just what happened. Or do you think that Malthusian is wrong? David D. (Talk) 19:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

You're an ass for being an ass. Simple logic. When did anyone mention an email being sent to me? And yes, I think user Last_Malthusian is wrong. Itake 19:51, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

From you that comes as a compliment. Gastrich has been e-mailing Christian contributers in wikipedia. Since your info boxes are supportive of his position it is likely you would have received one. If that is not the case I apolgise for the presumption. Others have said that that is the reason they are here . David D. (Talk) 20:03, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, This information is valuable and should be included. Salva veritate Lerner 17:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Merge Given it's current state, it should be weaned and merged into the main article under the Notable Alumni section. Wynler 17:23, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep I see no reason to delete this article. --Shanedidona 17:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. List of financial transactions, in effect, and not verifiable by reasonable means short of people's receipts. Charles Matthews 17:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep same as above. --Yonghokim 17:42, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep silensor says clearly what I was thinking... article establishes its reason for existing. It does appear it may have problems keeping focuses however.  ALKIVAR™ 18:56, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. What a waste of time. The vote to delete the parent article was lost. (The first vote seems to have been abandonned rather than closed - pity, needs cleaning up when the dust settles.) The list of delete arguments above includes some valid ones but also many ad hominem and other irrelevancies. (Let me pre-empt two others by saying that I am a Christian, and I have been emailed on this. See user:Andrewa/creed.) For example, if we were to delete every article on a university contributed by any of its alumni, we'd lose a lot of good content. A brief mention of lobbying and sock-puppet allegations is appropriate, but alleged vested interests are at best borderline arguments IMO. What should count is user contribution history, and the article itself. Andrewa 19:52, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Theologist101 (talk • contribs) .

User has a total of 14 edits. Arbustoo 06:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep. --Hayson 21:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC) (The previous unsigned message was not from me)
• Keep Regardless of people's opinion of the information, it is still good information. I actually found the article quite useful.the1physicist 21:30, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Weak delete, since most of the people listed aren't notable in themselves, but if Mike Randall et al. are kept, then my vote can be for a weak keep instead. Including it (or not) should depend on the results of the related AfD's. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 23:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Strong DELETE; -- why not have an article for every unknown fringe person who graduated from South Succotash High School in an article. This is just ridiculous self-promotion. Jim62sch 02:01, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: Please refrain from personal attacks. Disagree with the idea, not the person. I am not using this statement to attack a specific side of the debate, as both sides are violating this policy. Also, stay cool when the editing gets hot. This is the internet, which means that everybody should have the capability to give their points of view without directly offending others. Sycthos 03:28, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Finally, please sign all of your posts with four tildes, ~~~~ to ensure that others know who posted the comment. Sycthos 03:34, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete article, non-notables list takes up room. Arbustoo 03:36, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Riiiiiiight. --Jason Gastrich 07:54, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Your comments to those that oppose keeping this and your emails to those who will likely side with your views really shows your character. You are not right and thus only way you get people to support you is to a play the religious martyr role--- which many people don't buy. Arbustoo 02:59, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. A few of these people are editors, and authors, and notable people. They belong on an encyclopedia. Эйрон Кинни 18:45, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

• Which few are you talking about? One option is to merge them into the Louisiana Baptist University page. David D. (Talk) 18:57, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually they already appear on the Louisiana Baptist University page. I don't really see why people are talking about keeping the names page (they are already on the article page) or merge. Arbustoo 02:59, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• strong abstain. deep breaths everyone! Ginar 18:55, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

You don't see why people are talking about keeping the names page? That's what this nomination is about! Furthermore, there are 68 other "names pages" like it for various universities. They haven't been merged with their university. --Jason Gastrich 06:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

How many times are you going to post you abstain. Arbustoo 02:59, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I hope something is going to be done about this ballot stuffing. Arbustoo 02:59, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. I was brought here, like many others by Wiggins2, or as he wants to be called, "Wiggie". I think we shouldn't be so quick to shoot him down, as I, & probably many others, are grateful for his post to draw our attention to this subject. I wouldn't mind if the other "side" did the same. But we cannot ignore the fact that this is defintely going to open wikipedia into two halves; Those who want to keep. Those who don't. I.E. Christians, & others. However, this should not be about religion. I would be ashamed of the christians on here if they only voted to keep the articles because they were christian orientated. This should strictly be business as usual, even though it does seem strange an editor would nominate so many christian articles. Maybe a hidden agenda? If an article's crap, then it should be deleted. Being an inclusionist, I will probably keep the most mundane article. However, the list of notable people list is like many others, & should not be here. To do so would be obvious bias. I ask everyone to not be drawn in with a strict "You're wrong, I'm right" situation, but be open & find a way to keep peaceful.... Spawn Man 04:06, 22 January 2006 (UTC). BTW, I hope my vote isn't discounted, I count myself as a influencial editor...
  • Dude, it's not a Christians vs. the Detroit Lions situation. I'm an atheist (because I reject Christ's far-left socialist teachings)--I want to keep it because anything that actually exists is worthy of an article. Kurt Weber 15:46, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Wiggins2

Click the link and learn Jim62sch 02:05, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for starting a new section. I have a wimpy browser that won't load the whole thing into the textbox and I've had something I wanted to say. User:Ginar wrote:

"The criteria for me here is, "is this article useful as a way to initiate research" and clearly it is. If I was interested in, say, the history of baptist thinking or wanted to make a wash list of baptist notable, I could use this as a start."

The fact is, you couldn't. Most aren't notable at all, and most (like 99%) notable Baptists have nothing to do with the place. As for LBU being a starting point for the history of baptist thinking, I'm insulted. I mean that seriously. You think that's all we've managed to come up with?

The article is worthless for both uses you suggested it could have. It's not only non-notable, it's presence, by claiming notability it doesn't have, is positively misleading. A.J.A. 03:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I think fundamentalists are weird and really misguided but I really think that you're overreacting. The university is not a diploma mill. I get advertistments from diploma mills and this one isn't of the same genre. It is simply non-accredited and their is precedent for institutions avoiding government accreditation because of the restrictions that come with that. Now would I hire a graduate from this school? no. but that doesn't mean the school isn't notable. If it has thousands of graduates and it graduates go on to publish stuff, its notable.

As far as the rest of the people on the page, clearly most of them probably don't deserve to be on the page and really the page should me merged with something else -- not enough content. But I think the data deserves to be here regardless of how questionable the tactics of the author are and I really think that those of you pushing so hard to remove this data are as biased as the author of the articles. You are just biased in another way. The problem here is your particular bias carries with it the aura of objectivity (cause your defending accreditation and all the other "holy above holy" academic stuff) but its not. Its bias pure and simple.

nothing is lost by leaving a portion of this data here (merging). Just note the university is not state accredited (and any other qualifiers you want to add) and let the readers decide for themselves. Its ridiculous to try and purge the wiktionary of all this stuff. Fact is, fundamentalism is a big deal in the US and it should be represented in this WIKI.

oh, and I abstain from voting. I hope that gives at least one person severe chestpains tonight. :-) Ginar 04:25, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking to as I lay in bed, being non-accredited is irrelevant here. If we really want to judge this university fairly, we should call a few other baptist type universities and ask them what they think of this university. This way we can assess the school using a rubric that includes the relevant constituency. Of course, I don't think that doing this make the university respectible. I'd expect to find a lot of bias in such an institution and I wouldn't be inserting it into any mainstream flows. But at least we would honor the constituency which the institution purports to represent and not engage argumentation which, to many baptists, must appear quite insulting.

Anyway, I've said enough. what am I doing typing this late on a saturday night when I have better things to do???!?!? Most of these bios should be deleted and the one or two notables could be merged into another article and this wiki really needs to come up with better criteria for judging articles. Either that or we all gotta buy some boxing gloves ;-) Ginar 07:10, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

So does this mean you'll be abstaining from this vote?  ;-) David D. (Talk) 07:18, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm just going to abstain from this abstention. I'm currently in the process of re-evaluating my status as wiki-inclusionist and may change my mind re the whole abstention option. Perhaps what is needed are new abstention categories. soft abstention, 'hard abstention, etc. :-) Ginar 16:11, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep The subjects of the article clearly exist. Kurt Weber 15:43, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• Indeed they do. And the ones who are genuinely notable (and a few who are not) are already linked in the LBU article, which is certainly not overlarge. So this separate article is unnecessary. - Just zis  Guy, you know? / AfD? 23:12, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Unencyclopedic list. Vote stacking attempt leaves a bad taste in my mouth. --Blu Aardvark | 15:48, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Vote stacking, sock-puppetry, and general disruption has made it impossible to fairly evaluate this article, but it appears to be a list of non-notable people associated with a non-notable school. At the very least, merge. Crunch 16:59, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - Yes I was found this all by myself - Keep this per Kurt.--God of War 18:34, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Crunch. rodii 19:31, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Crunch. --Dragonfiend 22:16, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: How can you justify putting something that is still under discussion and something that hasn't gone beyond the status of "suspected" at the top of the page? That is OBVIOUS POV and should not be tolerated. Putting it somewhere in this crumb text would be okay, but putting it at the top makes it look like a fact and obviously influences other users. This concerns this page aswell as the other LBU-related AfD. Itake 00:34, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. It was all done to skew the voting and make people turn against me and bias their viewpoint of the nomination and the entry. It's a pretty sick tactic. It shows they care little about the actual strength of the entry; which should be the only thing considered. Since the "warnings" have been posted, some people have even said that they've voted only because of the alleged misconduct. Consequently, they and the people who are engaging in this witchhunt should be ashamed of themselves. They've done irreparable damage to their integrity and to Misplaced Pages. --Jason Gastrich 00:45, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Mote, beam, etc. The person whose integrity has suffered most is you, for ineptly using a sockpuppet to recruit votes. The warning wouldn't be necessary if you hadn't attempted to disrupt conensus. --Malthusian (talk) 00:53, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Again with the lies, again with stating suspicions as a facts. Can ANYONE provide a good argument for why the intro should stay? Itake 01:07, 23 January 2006 (UTC)