Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:32, 24 January 2006

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• AI-generated images depicting living people
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Revealing personal information

About a month ago, Tina M. Barber (talk · contribs) revealed personal information (name, workplace and position held at that workplace) about another user, a registered wikipedian, as discussed above. This obviously needs to be deleted from the archives of wikipedia, and I have given her the chance to report it here. She hasn't done that in the few hours since I posted the {{Pinfo4}} template on her talk page, which couldn't be expected from her in such short notice. However, I don't want to wait any longer. She also claims to have told the other wikipedian's employer that he is using the company's computer and internet connection to edit wikipedia. What needs to be done about her? A block might be in order, although I'm not sure it still is an option a month after the offence. But if she needs to be blocked, for how long? 24 hours? 1 week? 1 month? Indefinitely? Aecis 21:58, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

What's the point in blocking a month after the fact? Blocks are remedial, not punitive. However, WP:BP#Personal attacks which place users in danger is clear enough that a block may be imposed immediately such an attack is discovered; I rather suppose the policy has in mind that the block still be pertinent to the fact. -Splash 22:29, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand; What remediation is ever provided by imposing a block after personal information has been posted? Surley blocks in these circumstances are, if not "punitive," at least meant to discourage the behavior. Tom Harrison 23:37, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

A block will prevent the editor from adding the information again. The editor having not apparently done so, a block wouldn't be stopping anything. There is a case, sometimes, for 'electric fence' blocks, but there's really no case for much at all a month after the fact. -Splash 23:39, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Tina M. Barber (talk · contribs) has edited wikipedia since I posted the warning on her talk page, so she must have seen the "You've got a new message" box. I presume she has and I presume she has viewed her talk page and seen the template. She has not requested the deletion of the edit from the archives, as instructed by the template ("If you have posted such information, please remove it immediately. Please then follow the link to this page and inform people there that the information was posted (but crucially, do not repost it on that page). An admin or developer can then remove the information from the archives of Misplaced Pages."), so I will do it on her behalf. The edit concerned is this one, the comment can currently be found here. Aecis 13:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I believe I have now become a bit too involved, so I won't do it myself, but I think that what Tina has said on that talk page ("... his superiors are being informed about his Vandalism! I highly doubt that he is going to consider this very funny after his system is inspected!") is consistent with {{threatban}}: "Users who make threats, whether legal, personal, or work-related, that in any way are seen as an attempt to intimidate another user, are immediately blocked." Aecis

I emailed the victim of the attack, after I posted here, and he advised that T. Barber did indeed contact his superiors and also posted his name/work info on her own personal forums requesting those participants also contact his employer.

At the time she did this, a number of Wiki editors posted on the talk page asking T. Barber why she did this and telling her it was against Wiki policy and that an apology was in order, but she didn't offer one or remove her post.

Us being new users to Misplaced Pages, we didn't know what/if further action could be taken. It took a little time before I found this site to ask about this.

This caused considerable grief for the editor she "outed", but since the administrators didn't take any further action, he thought acts like that must be allowed by Wiki, so he hasn't posted since.

Will there be any further action taken? Once the person gets the Pino4 template, is there follow-up or does it just become inert if she doesn't respond to that template?

Because someone also tracked my IP address (again, being new, I sometimes was forgetting to "sign in" to Wiki)and posted my name on the page also, after that one. I don't know if that were her also or not. They used the name "Aslan" (shows IP address 70.35.67.56 03:33 before name), but I've since learned about "sock puppets", so maybe it was her and she figured nobody stopped her before so why not do it again. When it happened to me, that moderator didn't say anything about it, so again, I figured it was alright with Wiki too. I don't know if they have been able to track my employer yet.

I hope somebody can help us with these incidents because if this continues, editors are going to be pretty worried that their personal info is vulnerable if they post here.

MilesD. 02:43, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I have wondered if maybe a technical solution might help. It seems that right now when these incidents happen there is a tension between on the one hand keeping the edit history as intact as possible for a number of reasons, not least of which is to preserve evidence that the offending editor did this thing, and on the other hand to preserve the privacy and thus the safety of the victim.

I wonder, what would be the practicality of the following procedure: when there is a reported attempt to "out" personal information, the page in question is temporarily pulled; the portions which represent the sensitive information are processed with one of the common hashing/checksum algorithms, and replaced with a template expression giving the length and checksum of the redacted personal information? This would preserve as much evidence as possible but still preserve the editor's privacy. -- Antaeus Feldspar 05:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I have now requested a sock check to see if Tina M. Barber (talk · contribs) is 70.35.67.56 (talk · contribs). Aecis 10:52, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's happening again. Another post today, with just an IP address, showing a link to Tina Barber's personal website listing the personal names and information of people who may not even be on Wiki or are on Wiki but not using their "real" names. The post is as follows:

"In response to the "others" statement that over 50% of the existing ISSR breeders left in '97-98, at Tina's request, I have reviewed the database and put it into a live web page that can be shared with the entire Shiloh fancy. http://www.shilohshepherds.info/otherBreeders.htm.

"I am also preparing other documented data pages that will clearly dispell the objections that have been raised by the "other" "editors".

207.200.116.133 22:33, 22 January 2006 (UTC)"

Also, if possible, could you please check these potential sock puppet IP addresses 70.35.67.56 (as already noted by Aecis) and 207.200.116.133 (yesterday's poster) and name "Aslan" (the "name" of the poster who revealed my personal info) to both Tina Barber and also poster "TrillHill", as I do think there is a chance one or the other, or both are using these IPs and/or names to reveal personal information, as TrillHill will sometimes place posts saying Tina Barber has asked her to post (I don't know if maybe Tina Barber was blocked during those times). I'm sorry for this obvious hassle in trying to stop this, but I don't know where else to turn and it's getting really bad. Thank you very much for helping. MilesD. 06:37, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I have added the request to Misplaced Pages:Requests for CheckUser, so that those with m:CheckUser privileges can check on these users. Aecis 12:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate page move protection by User:Radiant!

Radiant! (talk • contribs • blocks • protects • deletions • moves) recently has been moving Misplaced Pages:Avoid using meta-templates to Misplaced Pages:No meta-templates, a name that has not been proposed on the talk page and one that I specifically disagreed with. Regardless of what page name is best, and their are several alternate suggestions on the talk page by many users, what matters more is that Radiant! moved the page at 23:40, and then immediately protected it from page moves. -- Netoholic @ 23:51, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

On the talk page, Netoholic had proposed that "Avoid using meta-templates" be renamed to a stronger term, e.g. not using the word "avoid". Recently, I've done just that, making it "No meta-templates" (which also conforms nicely with other policy page names) and updated the many redirects. Netoholic is apparently angry with me (see Talk:Leet for the dispute) and has reverted this (breaking the redirects in the progress) on grounds that it "wasn't proposed on the talk page". Now 1) a good-faith rename needn't be discussed, and 2) he was the one that proposed this in the first place. Since he didn't respond to my question why, I've protected the page from moving for a short while, because moving back-and-forth is a bit pointless. Of course it's now in m:the wrong version. I'm just posting the notification here, this is verging on the WP:LAME. Radiant_>|< 23:54, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Please point to anywhere I said "No meta-templates" was good name (never have). And besides, I've obviously recently said I disagree with that name, and so have others. But really, how AT ALL does that warrant you page move warring then the PROTECTING the page? The first time I reverted your rename was on 1/16 before the discussion began about Leet. I didn't break any redirects, because you only just now changed them. It is your recent actions that seem to indicate bad-faith vindictiveness. -- Netoholic @ 00:04, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

At this point protection is warranted so that the various issues can be discussed. This morning I actually advocated re-writing the policy entirely because it currently defines "meta-templates" in a way which excludes 90% of the templates which are being held to fall under the policy and concentrates exclusively on 'meta' templates while those are really only one aspect of the real problems. There are alot of different ideas which need to be worked out. --CBD _☎ 00:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Radiant!. Netoholic has just been making a real nuisance of himself all over this policy. If a page is moved a few times in quick succession, it seems reasonable to protect it from moves until consensus is achieved. I think most people working on that policy have almost exhausted their patience with Netoholic. --Gareth Hughes 00:09, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I endorse this block to sort it out in calm. Move wars are bad. Netoholic seems to quickly feel personally attacked by the slightest disagreement with him. --Adrian Buehlmann 00:16, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Did I get that right? Radiant! Gets into an edit war with Netoholic, and then Radiant! protects the page at his prefered version! Since the edit war is continuing, I have now reprotected the page. Sort it out the pair of you, please. --Doc 00:19, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it needs full protection, or even move protection, as long as Radiant! respects the fact that he's currently the only one that wants that specific name. We've got many suggestions on talk, and even discussion about a page overhaul. It was just premature to move it, and of course, improper for Radiant! to protect it. -- Netoholic @ 00:29, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

The disagreement between Radiant and Netoholic emerged about Leet (a whole different page) and then went over to a move war on WP:AUM. WP:LAME indeed on both sides to varying degree. --Adrian Buehlmann 00:26, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Ah, but after Radiant! got involved with Leet, and I chastised him for inserting unsourced information, that he moved this page again today in an act I can only interpret as spite. He knows how to push people's buttons, for sure. -- Netoholic @ 00:29, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh please. You claim someone acting in bad faith against you every time someone pushes Save page.

Other admins, Netoholic is currently in violation of:

• His ArbCom ban (editing in both the Misplaced Pages: and Template: namespaces)
• WP:AUM (revert-warring templates)
• move-warring WP:AUM
• WP:CIV

Doesn't this warrant a block yet? — Omegatron 00:48, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I would say this warrants a block. But the question is what this would help. This is a wiki. We do have to learn how to integrate the good sides of Netoholic. And, believe it or not, the timining of the move that Radiant did on WP:AUM couldn't have barely be worser (in so far I must agree with Neto as per "knowing how to push Neto's button", the thing is this button is so prominent on Neto's surface that it takes an extreme amount of self control not to touch it). The tricky thing is that Netoholic has sound technical knowledge but cannot accept opposition to any of his edits. The worst thing Netoholic did in the past was at template:language where the people around that (Garzo and others) have clearly stated that they are about to implement WP:AUM but Netoholic constantly pushes his own "Netoholic way" of how to implement that. For Neto, speed of implementing WP:AUM seems to go over anything else. Maybe a block for a week or two would be in order, but do not expect that Neto will change his mind by that. This would at least give the people at template language time to implement their solution without interruption by Netoholic. Sorry for my long post but this Neto thing his very delicate. --Adrian Buehlmann 09:49, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Is it true that restrictions placed on Netoholic by ArbCom are actually in place?

2.1) Netoholic is banned from editing in the Wikipeedia and template namespaces for twelve months, and restricted to one revert per page per day. This remedy is suspended while the mentorship in remedy 3 is in effect, and may be cancelled if the mentors consider the mentorship has been successful. The twelve months is counted from the date of the arbitration committee decision.

Passed 5 to 0 at 22:40, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

This remedy was suspended while Netoholic was under mentorship. However, the update clearly states that the mentorship failed and the above ban is in effect. There is no notice to say otherwise, so I believe that Netoholic has been in contravention of this ban since July. I would like clear opinion on this statement, as this user has been particularly rude and disruptive of late and there seems to have been no remedy for his actions. --Gareth Hughes 12:15, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• It is a somewhat complex situation. Yes, he is banned from Misplaced Pages and Template namespaces, and that is technically in force ever since the mentorship failed. About amonth ago he made a request on RFAr that this ban be lifted. The ArbCom has not responded to that, except for a short remark by Raul654 that "several arbitrators (myself and David Gerard in particular) have expressed approval of what Netoholic has been doing vis-a-vis killing metatemplates and possibly creating some sort of exception for that." The point is really that Neto is doing a good job on templates, but doing it in an overly abrasive way. Also, he's been doing some things not related to templates (e.g. Leet) that are something less than a good job.
  • The easiest solution would be to simply enforce the ban as imposed, until and unless the ArbCom sees fit to change that.
  • A more productive solution would be to allow him to continue to do good work on templates, but have someone watch him to for instance impose a zero-revert rule and a personal attack parole. That would be somewhat akin to his earlier mentorship. However, it is quite possible that such a watcher would find himself between a rock and a hard place.
  • And of course the third solution would be to ignore it as we have now, and hope the incivility doesn't get out of hand.
• Radiant_>|< 12:39, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I will unblock instantly if anyone blocks Netoholic over this. He's enforcing an oft-disregarded policy and taking the time to do it properly, and a majority of members of the arbitration committee have given him their explicit consent to do so - preventing this sort of activity was not what anyone had in mind with the original ban. Trying to bring this here is a blatant way of trying to override Misplaced Pages policy by having the messenger banned, and that simply will not stand. Ambi 15:30, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

If you are interested I can provide you with a lot of edits which can clearly not be referred to as "He's enforcing an oft-disregarded policy". I would rather say he is often enforcing his way to implement WP:AUM, ignoring other ideas and threatening people with his edit warring and wikilawyering. It seems to me you are applying here WP:IAR, but this at a very high cost. By the way, we do not need Netoholic to implement WP:AUM. He is not the only one who does and is able to implement it. --Adrian Buehlmann 21:19, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Newest example: . Others on request. --Adrian Buehlmann 09:14, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Which actions of Netoholic has the ArbCom explicity given their consent to? I'm not questioning the truth of your statement, but I am interested in exactly what the ArbCom consented to. Carbonite | Talk 15:36, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I find Ambi's comment unhelpful. It gives Netoholic blanket approval to be as disruptive as he likes. The key word is enforcement: it is not Netoholic's job to enforce any policy. In fact, giving a user who has a history of uncivil conduct such powers is bound to cause problems. If the ArbCom are serious about lifting the ban, they should do so on the relevant page. The consensus here is growing that we need tools to control Netoholic's consistent incivility. Giving him unblockable status in this way will make the situation worse: he already seems to think he can do anything. --Gareth Hughes 15:58, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• Ambi, please read my previous post again and what I said about a more productive solution? While Neto is certainly working on an oft-disregarded policy, there is substantial doubt on whether he is doing it properly. If you don't believe me, check his contribs log for the last few days and count the amount of revert wars and personal attacks. There has been a request by him on the RFAr page to rescind his probation for over a month now, that only a single arbiter has responded to. It is a longstanding tradition that good edits do not by themselves excuse bad edits, and if in upholding one policy (AUM) he is breaking several others (CIV/NPA/AGF, WP:POINT and the spirit of 3RR) he is not doing a good job. Radiant_>|< 16:38, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Ambi, please read through the relevant discussions, the ArbCom, and Netoholic's actions before making such statements. Wheel warring isn't helpful.

Netoholic is enforcing his interpretation of WP:AUM, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's doing it correctly or in a way that the developers would approve of. If you read WP:AUM and Jamesday's comments again, you'll see that constant editing of templates is just as bad for server load as templates within templates, and Netoholic's constant revert warring of templates is actually a violation of WP:AUM.

preventing this sort of activity was not what anyone had in mind with the original ban.

Actually, it is. "Netoholic was arguably completely technically correct — but he interacted so negatively with others that he actually convinced people he was not." In spite of him being correct about templates, he was banned by the ArbCom because of his behavior, which hasn't improved a bit.

Trying to bring this here is a blatant way of trying to override Misplaced Pages policy by having the messenger banned, and that simply will not stand.

This has nothing to do with the developer-mandated policy. It has to do with his behavior, which hasn't changed at all since the ban or mentorship. We can handle the policy without his "help". No one appointed him as the enforcer of WP:AUM. (And if they did, he's doing a bad job at it, anyway; ignoring the parts that are inconvenient for him.) — Omegatron 17:05, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

It's really disappointing to see my efforts being mischaracterized like this. I have recieved several compliments on my template conversions, and in fact, that conversion has inspired many creative uses for templates. In the months that my ban was fully in force, I stayed away, happily. I was drawn back by people contacting me about templates, and specifically the abominations that are the "conditional templates". Unfortunately, because of the nature of how wide-spread my work is in template-land, I have a much higher chance of running into the occasional cliques and OWNers. I can do nothing more than provide the alternative and point to the justification (WP:AUM). Often, I will try convincing them for a few days, even providing fully working replacements for them, and then leave it be for a few days. Everyone speaking negatively of me in this thread (except Radiant!, oddly) is someome that has had one of their templates challenged by me. I am still "completely technically correct", but that just makes egos bruised even more because they think I'm implying, by fixing or challenging their use of templates, that they've done bad work. All I want is to do is make things better. -- Netoholic @ 17:41, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Everyone speaking negatively of me in this thread (except Radiant!, oddly) is someome that has had one of their templates challenged by me.

And me.

All I want is to do is make things better.

How many times are you going to say that without acting on it? You must be aware of the problems many many editors have with your behavior, so why do you persist in it? Do you seriously believe that you're doing the right thing when everyone tells you that you're not? Do you just enjoy pissing people off? Your behavior is not justified by this or any other policy. — Omegatron 19:58, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

No, you too. I don't have problems with "many many editors", only a couple quite vocal ones who've decided I'm ruining their wikilife by trying to make their templates better. How can you say "everyone" tells me I'm not doing the right thing when at least 4 arbitrators in just the last week have concurred that I'm doing the right thing? My behavior has been exemplary, and my patience has been abundant. For months, Omegatron, you have had a specific agenda against me, one that borders on harassment. You and I never interact any more, so really shouldn't have any comment. Yet, when someone mentions my name, you join right in and flame the shit out of me, just like always. -- Netoholic @ 20:12, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Template:Prettytable?? The one where I agreed that it was unnecessary and helped turn it into a css class? — Omegatron 03:08, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Maybe you don't have a problem with "many many editors" but you do seem to have a problem with most editors you interact with. Apparently everyone that has had one of their templates challenged by you is someone that speaks negatively of you. The pattern is pretty obvious. Radiant_>|< 20:28, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• You've got your logic reversed... the people here complaining have had there templates challenged by me. I make a ton of edits in the template space, of which the smallest fraction turn into problems. When "standardisers working in good faith clash with those working on articles", it's probably impossible to expect that every interaction will work out perfectly. I do try and respect the aims of those others, and try to present alternatives in good faith. What's happening here, especially with Garzo, Omegatron, and Adrian Buehlmann, is a pile on attack. They see weakness in an adversary, and go for it. I don't want anyone to think, for one second, that their very vocal presence represents the entirety of my experience here on Misplaced Pages. -- Netoholic @ 20:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• Maybe you can point people to some examples of where your work has been appreciated (and note here that just because nobody noticed your unilateral changes and didn't complain doesn't mean it met with approval). And in any event, it's your behavior and attitude when you are confronted with objections that really convinces me you shouldn't be enforcing WP:AUM (let alone violating the ArbCom ban against you). Instead of working with people (or accepting that they don't like your "solutions"), you accuse them of being WP:OWNers and/or cliques (see above), when in fact it's more likely they're actually a consensus. I also like your underhanded tactic of forcing the issue with people by nominating meta-templates they rely upon at WP:TFD (see: Template:Language). So you couldn't convince them at their templates talk page, so let's try and screw them over entirely by pulling the rug out from underneath them. Bravo! *rollseyes* —Locke Cole • t • c 09:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

• Netoholic and I don't agree on alot of things (like... say, which way is 'up'), but his hard work has certainly been appreciated by many people. I recall seeing thanks for his work on the 'warbox' (now 'Infobox Military campaign' or something like that), 'Infobox City', something with dog breeds, and several others... just from what I've seen in floating around the same areas. No, compromise and dealing with conflict aren't his strongest suits, but where those issues don't arise he has done a tremendous amount of very beneficial work. His conversion of the 'taxobox' template was a major accomplishment that is now being used extensively. The 'pulling the rug out' analogy isn't inaccurate, but it is usually possible to be standing by with a new rug for the nice people and little harm done. --CBD _☎ 19:57, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I've not really interacted with Netoholic that much during this meta template brou-ha-ha, but I have done so a little. I find the user's attitude to be unhelpful, unnecessarily confrontational, and prone to unilateral actions without so much as letting people know what is going on. A prime example of this is Template:Ship table. It was previously a hodge-podge of template code, extremely complicated and prone to breaking if people did not follow complex instructions exactly. I then switched it over to the IF and then QIF templates because they were an elegant solution to the problem of optional rows. This, of course, is part of the series of actions that have provoked howls from the devs about server load. A few days ago I was alerted by another member of the Wikiproject Ships that Netoholic had unilaterally declared my template to be deprecated due to the crusade against meta templates. Netoholic had also developed a 'replacement' that used the CSS trick for hiding rows. Other users had tried to turn Ship table into a version without QIF by using the CSS trick and had nearly succeeded. There were three or four examples of QIF that needing expunging. When I found out what was going on I got rid of the last examples of QIF from the template since the really wanted functionality, ie hidden optional rows in a table, is now available in a way that does not overload the servers. I did this in a manner which did not break existing tables using the template at all. If I could do that in less than an hour why did Netoholic not post a message on my talk page about the possible solutions to the meta template situation? Why did Netoholic not work with me to fix the Ship table template? Why was it someone else who alerted me to what was going on? It is because Netoholic is behaving like a bull in a china shop and is consequently being very disruptive to Misplaced Pages's smooth running. I see no reason for relaxing the ArbCom ruling, and if it has been relaxed it should go back into effect fully. The negative contributions of Netoholic to Misplaced Pages are vastly outweighing the positive at the moment. David Newton 01:15, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

It is clear that a number of users find Netoholic difficult to work with, particularly when working on templates. It is also clear that ArbCom has found against Netoholic and has issued a ban against editing templates. The revoking of this ban has not been clearly set out. --Gareth Hughes 00:24, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Netoholic's request for clarification about his ban is here.

The "policy" that Netoholic is enforcing was written by himself in February 2005, in response to a comment in January that he didn't have the authority to say "calling one template from another is a bad practice". It was originally his interpretation of developer Jamesday's comments about Sister Project templates, though it has been warred over perpetually since then.

He persisted in trying to make it a guideline, which was heavily disputed. It was eventually declared policy and his ban violations ignored, strictly because of the connections to "lead developer" Jamesday and the server load issue. Recently, the claims about server load and the consensus of the developers were largely invalidated by lead developer Brion Vibber. His comments on the issue were, of course, immediately removed by Netoholic, and guideline status re-imposed.

So, basically, he wrote up his own policy and used its status as an excuse for all kinds of abusive behavior, knowing that admins like Ambi have his back no matter how disruptive he is.

Funny... he was accused of doing the exact same thing two years ago on Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (television).

Do you see improvement in his behavior? I don't. — Omegatron 20:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I especially find him whinging about WP:OWN hilarious when you realise he's in the middle of this particular little shtstrm. HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 09:18, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Mistress Selina Kyle

I've blocked her for disruptions and personal attacks. Will give evidence in a moment, but I'd like this in public before I get accused of impropriety--Tznkai 21:26, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. Katefan0/mrp 21:28, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Home honey, I'm hi! El_C 00:24, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Evidence

• Aggreement to avoid personal attacks, commentary, etc, and to their removal
• First occurance of an accusation This was removed assuming unwise but good faith edits.
• Continuation but distinctly more personal incidence ofthe first
• First restoration of comments
• My warning
• Second restoration , this may have occured before she could see the warning but
• Third edit and accusation, this occured after she had opportunity to see her warning.

--Tznkai 21:38, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Related

• Misplaced Pages:Administrators noticeboard/Incidents#New_Catholic_Alliance_of_Wikipedia-like_vote_stacking
• Talk:Islamofascism

Discussion

I'm not surprised.--Sean|Black 21:40, 18 January

I entered into the conflict on Islamofascism after seeing an incident on WP:AN/I where MSK complained about a supposed consnesnus. I came in, set up ground rules, and demanded they were followed. They were also agreed to. I unfortuantly, had a bit of RL life come up and hit me upside the head, and I looked away for abit. For that I appologize. This may or may not have effected my judgemnt, so I submit this for full disclosure.--Tznkai 21:43, 18 January 2006 (UTC) 2006 (UTC)

I think I may extend my block as MSK's response is less than hopefull--Tznkai 21:46, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. This is the sort of response that leaves me going "*facepalm*". MSK doesn't seem to be a troll as such, but she is presently way too hotheaded - David Gerard 22:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I think you went a bit over the top. I wish MSK wouldn't SHOUT so much, but I can't see much evidence of policy breach on her part. Could all users brave enough to be involved in this dispute please remember WP:POINT. Physchim62 (talk) 22:36, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

agree with Physchim62. I'm not sure about the block.--Alhutch 22:43, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

My concern here is, ignoring for a moment using policy rubrics, she's poisoined the well, and disrupted the project. She could easly have stated that "I do not think this voting procedure is legitimate" or "I disagree.". The point of policy is to protect the project from disruption. This was clearly irellivant and she was unwilling to stop using the discussion page to discuss editors. That to me is a violation of WP:NOT (Misplaced Pages is not a discussion board, WP:CIV states that any kind of rudeness (and poisoning the well is very rude) isn't acceptable. WP:NPA not only says repeated accusations (religious bias and vote stacking) is bad, it noticibly doesn't give a damn about the truth value of the accsations. In fact it states that you should "Comment on content, not on the contributor". Not only this but she had already agreeed to the removal of such comments.--Tznkai 22:46, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

All the same, I can't see that your action here has lowered the temperature at all; more the opposite as far as MSK is concerned! I came accross this on WP:AN, and I find it somewhat ironic that malber (talk · contribs) should complain about MSK shortly after removing a warning about NPA from his/her own talk page... sorry, that is attacking the editor, not the content... Physchim62 (talk) 22:53, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

We're here to discuss editor action, this isn't an article's talk page. I don't know about malber's complaints, and I don't relaly care all that much to be honest. Blocking MSK certainly improved the tone of the discussion on Talk:Islamofascism and She's got a whole 24 hours to calm down. In the meantime, the discussion can procede without her parciular brand of disrpution, and a pleasant side effect of any other conflicts she was involved in have a more time for calm thought.--Tznkai 22:58, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

As an outsider, it seems MSK is perpetually breaking the fundamental policy of Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia. Users who help the encyclopaedia more than they disrupt it - we want (and with the minimum of disruption, of course:) ); users who cause more disruption than good they do, we do not want. Full stop. Whatever the reason for this is irrelevant - and I'm afraid that from what I've seen it's clear that MSK is in the latter category of users, jguk 23:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I wish the notice would include mention of which diff is alleged to violate which policy. It seems that the second diff presented in the evidence is what started the process of blankings and warnings that led to a block. In the second diff, MSK posted, "Void, this section started by BYT to attempt to bypass consensus (especially regarding the vote stacking made by him for getting a false consensus): As you were already told by the admin here previously, get it listed on Articles for Deletion or Articles for Merging.. You already know about this yet you seem to be trying to ignore it.." (italics mine) I fail to see how this merited removal from the Talk page in the first place. Please enlighten me? Johntex\ 02:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

One, It was incorrect. Two, it was a direct personal comment to BYT. Three, said comment was poisoning the well, something she was explicitly told and agreed not to do. Four, I did not remove that specificly, I removed both the second and third pullet points at once. I was not super concerned with the first, but them together I was dissapointed with. I assumed at first the first comment was irksome but made in good faith. Successive edits proved that this was a going to be a problem.--Tznkai 03:35, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

"pullet points" Are those like McNuggets? FeloniousMonk 04:05, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Hello Tznkai, thanks for your explanation. I must say however, that I still don't understand what made it OK to remove this post. You say it was incorrect - but factual disputes are not a justification for removal. Neither is making a "personal comment", unless you are alleging it constituted a "personal attack". I see no record MSK agreed not to make personal comments, the diff you provided above about here agreement seems to me to be in regard to conduct on a RfC, if one was to be opened on the limited question of whether to merge the article. And finally, it seems to me from this diff that you did remove this bullet by itself, before the second and third bullet points even existed. Since the second and third bullet points had not even been made yet, it seems that they are irrelevant in justifying the removal of the first bullet point. Unless I am still missing something, it seems to me that their is nothing in this first bullet point by MSK that violated any agreement that she made, that constitutes a personal attack, or that in any other way merits removal from the Talk page. While I certainly disagree with a lot of MSK's behaviour, I don't think we help things by what I will characterize as an over-reation to her first bullet point. Johntex\ 17:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Its a fuzzy logic situation. No one thing is enough to put me at the point of blocking here, its my feeling that the collection of all of these actions showed her unwillingness to remain cooperative, civil, and productive. Remember, article RfCs take place on the article's talk page. It does seem you are correct that I removed it seperatly, and that is a fault of my memory. I do maintain however that the message was innappropriate, if not a blockable offense on its own. Article talk pages are no place for accusations against single editors. There was a clear violation of good faith. " You already know about this yet you seem to be trying to ignore it" and " Void, this section started by BYT to attempt to bypass consensus (especially regarding the vote stacking made by him for getting a false consensus):" combined with the bad faith of the previous sentance suggested a personal attack. " WP:NPA lists that accusitory comments, especially those made in bad faith (also see WP:CIV, WP:AGF are innapropriate. They certainly no place on a user page. I made it very clear I had no patience for such comments, and I used my discretion. The edits were never deleted, they were moved to history. They never should have been made in the first place. MSK had several opportunities, and was invited and then demanded to replace them with civil productive discourse. She chose not to, and instead stand up and down screaming about her right to be nasty. Fuzzy logic kicks in and says that she needs a break from wikipedia, and wikipedia needs a break from her.--Tznkai 17:59, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I may have used the term fuzzy logic here incorrectly. I meant that there is no one thing that merits blocking, but the collection of them all does.--Tznkai 18:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

If you are going to be placing blocks without any specific policy basis you don't want to first be removing the user's vote, editing their talk page comments, threatening them, et cetera. Once you find yourself taking debatable actions (and removing someone's vote should always be 'debatable') you're going to want someone else to do any blocking which might be required. As to 'accusatory comments'... I didn't see similarly aggressive actions being taken towards the 'sock-puppetry' accusations being levelled at MSK by BYT there. At that, once you stretch the policies that far... haven't you made more than a few 'accusatory comments' yourself here? --CBD _☎ 00:54, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with what CBD said. I don't find her comments about the motives of another user particularly wonderful, but I also don't find your response to it particularly well thought out either. You shouldn't remove her comment, that's a contentious and controversial action. If you disagree with the factual accuracy of her comment, then refute it with the truth, but don't remove it. To her that's just going to look like you're trying to censor her, which is ver upsetting. I don't think her comment about BYT was a personal attack, but it also wasn't neccessarily conducive to the discussion. On her part, I find it's best to provide a diff or something with the relevant quote if you're going to assert that another user feels a certain way. Either way, I don't think blocking was the way to go here. Ëvilphoenix 03:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

As for removing comments, I know I'm in a minority here, but I do that under the auspices of adminstrative and editorial discrestion, as suggested by WP:RPA. Furthermore, those comments should not exist because wikipedia is not a message board, it is not a battle ground, it is not a sniping area, it is an enyclopedia. The fact that we have all agreed to is that MSK's comments were determinental to the discussion, and to the construction and development of the encylopedia (see WP:NOT, WP:CIV and for kicks, WP:IAR).

Furthemore, MSK had several avenues open to her. My talk page, AN/I, AN, RfC, getting her favorite adminstrator to intervene, etc. Comments directed at a user's conduct belong on AN, AN/I, AN/3RR, RfC, RfAr, and user talk pages. That is, as far as I recall, the conclusive and exhaustive list. There is no policy that even suggests that MSK has the right to poison the well, disrupt civil discussion, or accuse BYT of sockpuppetry and vote stacking on the article talk page. She was invited explicitly to restate her objection in any number of ways. She chose not to.

Finally, and perhaps most tellingly, when warned of a block, she decided to flout it. Instead of going here on AN/I, responding on my talk page, or other dispute resolution processes, she decided continue adding off topic comments on the article talk page. These were never censored as they remain in the talk page history, and I even left a link to my removal of them. She had many options, and she chose uncivil disruption.--Tznkai 04:08, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

1. - The "sockpuppet accusations" thing: For a start, that was in a completely different conversation that took place several days before (the 16th) you started vandalizing the talk page by deleting other peoples' comments and so had nothing to do with this at all. Secondly, See 24.34.154.167 (talk · contribs) - I placed the notice on the pages after finding this out, at the time both the IP's user and talk pages were redlinks and it wasn't clear at all that it was BYT editing anonymously. What happened was after BYT talked about moving the page he used the anonymous IP to make the changes and as the message about it being him on Talk:Islamofascism (term) didn't appear until a few minutes after his anonymous changes and it looked like he was trying to hide the fact that it was him. Digging deeper and looking at the contributions (it seems he's used the IP quite a few times in the past, while not letting anyone know it's him), it was clear it was him, but it was very suspicious behaviour.
2. - Comments were "detrimental to the development of an encyclopedia"? This is POV-pushing. Drawing attention to vote-stacking is not "detrimental", and actually helps avoid the complete bias of consenus that BYT was aiming to achieve by mass-spamming talk pages of Muslim editors to 'come help us on this vote'. In fact, admin Demi did very much the same in a TfD discussion: and similar to you, I deleted it as I thought it was irrelevant to the discussion at the time: I was then reverted and blocked for "deleting other peoples' comments". It's sickening, the double-standards here.
3. "Warned of a block" - The fact is that you had no authority to block me as I did not do anything blockworthy/against policy. I did not make personal attacks, I was perfectly civil, all I did was bring attention to the fact that very dubious behaviour was going on with regards to the vote.
4. "These were never censored as they remain in the talk page history, and I even left a link to my removal of them." - The fact remains that you deleted them and so they disappeared from the page. That's censoring comments. The fact that they were in the history is irrelevant: When people read comments they look at the current version, not every change in the edit history. Also, it seems you're trying to fudge the facts here: You only left a link to my deleted comments a few minutes AFTER the third deletion of my vote and comment, so you can hardly claim that I was making "disruption": The fact is before you had blocked me you repeatedly deleted my comments and did not make any link to them, censoring any message you didn't agree with from the talk page.
5. There was no way linking to the administrators' noticeboard about a real thing going on - the diffs made it a fact not an "accusation" - is a "personal attack" and so would qualify under WP:RPA, but even then you still kept deleting anything I said, even after I made it clear to you that I didn't want you to keep deleting my comments. --Mistress Selina Kyle 12:06, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I first arrived on the dispute after seeing your notice on WP:AN (or was it AN/I?), and subsequent complaints. I told you then to cool down and take it easy. You had been throwing around bad faith accusations and vitrol from the moment I was aware of the dispute forward. Immediatly after I came there, I protected the article, asked what was going on, and set up ground rules. Ground rules you eventually agreed to. Furthermore, my actions are well supported by the simple fact that policy dictates that this is an enyclopedia. There is no free speech, there is no right to poison the well, there is no right to link to AN/I on article talk pages on something that isn't relivant/ is accusatory. Article talk pages are for discussing the article. Occasionally, it can be used for frequent editors on that page to slap each other on the back. These are things that foster good relations and a better encylopedia. Mean nasty, spite comments, accusations of vote statckin and the like do not.

I removed no comments before I was aware of the article. I set the ground rules from the time I was adjucating the dispute to the time forward. You don't like it, call for mediation, RFC, another admin, etc. These were all great outs. In fact however, you agreed to it.

Starting from the top then: 1. User conduct including sockpuppetry has certain channels. None of them are article talk pages.

2. You are making an assumptions on someone else's character, one that you hold and I've yet to see compelling consensus or evidence for. (see, the nice thing here, is if other people think so, I get overuled. Other people include people who aren't you. Other admins, experianed wikipedians, and people who don't care about islam realted articles are preferable). Also, this is not a votes for deletion. I have no idea what Demi did or didn't do other than Demi has not said a word on the relevant talk page. Very little of what you did here was constructive, as I have pointed out time and time again, and so have other editors on this subject.

3. You accused an editor of compromised integrity. Furthermore you linked it to religious bais. Furthermore you dragged in another admin's words that were only slightly relelvant. Then you used an article's talk page to poison the well and advertise a section on AN/I. To quote the blocking policy "Sysops may, at their judgement, block IP addresses or usernames that disrupt the normal functioning of Misplaced Pages.". I believe strongly that no matter what we argue about the specific wordking of WP:RPA WP:NPA WP:NOT and WP:CIV, this block falls well within my discretion and judgement that you were disrupting wikipedia, and you would continue to do so in increasingly dsiruptive ways without a cooldown period. Again, we must remind ourselves that you had several avenues of response, instead you escalated on the article talk page. You in fact did bring the block upon yourself, as you had lots of avenues to prevent it from happening, including complaining to a sympathetic adminstrator. There are a few around who are more than willing to overrule me, or better yet, talk to me politely.

4. You misunderstand. Syops have the technical ability to completely remove edits from history, or so I've been lead to believe. I removed the comments with a polite note for you to refactor them. I even left the convient little oppose vote. I signed that I was refactoring them. If people give a damn about what you said, they are welcome to look. It wasn't until you couldn't refactor that I linked the removed comments. This is true. I always gave you plenty of opportunity to improve instead of revert.

5. Poisoning the well! The AN/I section was your reporting. It was about user conduct. Just because it happened to be here on AN/I doesn't mean it was legitimate to insert into any conversation, let alone an article talk page. Personal attacks may infact be true. This does not mean they are constructive or helpful on article talk pages in any way. don't do them. If you want to say the vote shouldn't be carred out, say. "I don't think the vote should be carried out because there has been advertising on this vote." You don't even have to say who. People will ask, you can respond, nicely. In the meantime you leave a polite note on the relevant editor's talk page and say. "Please don't do this, its considered bad wikkiquette". As you see above BYT did not know, and has been informed. WP:AGF isn't policy, but its still a good idea as a way to make sure you follow basic CIV and EQ.

Lets review. You made accusations assuming bad faith. You singled out a single editor. You used an article talk page. You had several opportunities to refactor your comments. You agreed to avoid personal commentary (article RfCs take place on talk pages so you don't get any wiggle room here), including a specific warning against poisoning the well. You discarded several better avenues (User talk, AN, AN/I, IRC, E-mail, etc.) to discuss my actions and my block warning. Your opposition vote was based solely on accusations of vote stacking, or atleast thats all you wrote. You had several better ways of saying this (as outlined above). You have disrupted wikipedia based both fair readings of the letter of WP:NPA WP:CIV and WP:NOT, and while those are disputable, (as other admins have above) the spirit of the three supports my reading nicley. WP:BP states that "Sysops may, at their judgement, block IP addresses or usernames that disrupt the normal functioning of Misplaced Pages.". Finally, Misplaced Pages is an enyclopedia, and a sysop's job is to protect that enyclopedia. There is no doubt in my mind that you were making the discussion increasingly worse, as I outlined above.--Tznkai 17:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Latest block

I blocked Ms. Selina for 24 hours for vandalizing ] (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). See also User talk:Mistress Selina Kyle, where I posted an explanation. I don't fully understand what she's up to, but there is a clear tendency for her to get involved in sensitive issues, to make changes unilaterally and without much regard for policies or precedent, and to fail to consider that those who oppose her may be acting independently and in good faith. If it weren't for the useful edits she has made, I would be posting on WP:PE instead of here. In any case, without having to second guess her motivations, perhaps something can be done: I'd like to know if there's a consensus among involved users as to whether some form of mild sanctions could help. For example, having Ms. Selina placed on personal attack parole, revert parole, and/or page move parole. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 05:30, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

agreed. This user has been inserting nonsense and replacing images in Taiwan-related articles that can easily qualify as vandalism. --Jiang 09:19, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Posting personal information about a user

Hi, I'm an editor on the Shiloh Shepherd Dog site. This is my first experience with Wiki. This is currently an article in dispute. My signature is a "pen name" - MilesD. Following one of my posts a post was made with the following remark:

or whoever you are, you should read Ms. Barber's replies on the Shiloh Community Forums. Boy, does she have a big one ready for you! 70.35.67.56 03:33, 7 January 2006 (UTC)Aslan

No where on Wiki is the name mentioned, as this is a private name I do not wish to share. Apparently, poster "Aslan" tracked my IP address on Wiki to another outside e-group I belong to (where I use my name) and then posted it on Wiki.

Can an administrator do something to help stop this person from posting my personal information and threatening me? Also, I think this "Aslan" may be a sock puppet for user Tina Barber or possibly TrillHill as this has been done before with another user, when Tina Barber contacted his supervisor to advise he had posted from his work pc to Wiki.

Any help you can provide is most appreciated. Thank you very much. 69.173.135.114 03:18, 19 January 2006 (UTC) MilesD.

Names snipped by -Will Beback 04:14, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

You wouldn't have this problem if you registered an account since it would hide your IP address. As to what you can do now I have no idea. Jtkiefer ---- 21:53, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

@Jtkiefer: This user has an account, User:MilesD..

@MilesD.: I have searched the talk page and its archives for the comment, but I can't find it. Could you provide a link to the edit, so that it can be deleted and the user warned?

Aecis 11:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Hello Aecis: Yes, the post is on the Shiloh Shepherd Dog page, Archive #5, Content #4 titled "To the editors and moderators". The link is:http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Shiloh_Shepherd_Dog/Archive_5#To_the_editors_and_moderators Thank you very much. MilesD. 01:53, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

IAAL

I've just blocked IAAL (talk · contribs) because of his edits to Tron (hacker). This guy has also been causing problems over at de. related to the court case they are going through at the moment. His listing of de. admins as "responsible for damages" is a problem, and his additions to the article seem pure trouble-making. I'm told that he is not a lawyer, and has also been sending abusive emails to admins involved in this matter. I've got to run off-line now, but would welcome review. Please also see his talk page for my message to him. -- sannse (talk) 17:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Knew this was coming... doesnt surprise me in the least, he's apparently been a pest over on the de wiki as well.  ALKIVAR™ 19:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Is that a permanent block...? if not, please? He only came here to make legal threats, trick naive admins into following along without due process, and making a bunch of ridiculous complaints on this one topic. He serves no useful purpose here. DreamGuy 03:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

It was a month, which I thought would be long enough to let the Tron stuff calm down a bit - but if he returns and repeats, I'd be happy with an indefinite -- sannse (talk) 13:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Just as another note: This guy does not have any clue. Most of the persons on his list of responsible "admins" are not admins but normal users. German wikipedia made something they call "Meinungsbild", which means users are invited to "vote" (but because "voting" on Misplaced Pages lacks basic democracy principles, it is not called a "vote") in favor or against some topic. His list are the users who "voted" against removal of the name in question from the article. BTW: Beside the english and the german wikipedia, IAAL has also hassled the dutch Misplaced Pages . "he's apparently been a pest" seems like a gross understatement. -- Pedewikia 00:19, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Semi-protection of featured articles

It is generally understood that we do not full-protect articles while they are being featured on Misplaced Pages. Leithp recently contacted me regarding the Hero of Ukraine page, which I've semi-protected due it being vandalised constantly for the past 16 hours by anonymous editors. Semi-protection is nowhere near as prohibitive as full protection, and I believe that allowing this page to be vandalised such as this is a disservice to both Misplaced Pages and our readers. I wanted to bring this to the attention of WP:ANI for a broader discussion; it is reasonable to semi-protect featured articles? Hall Monitor 19:32, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Ah, you beat me to it. My thoughts on this are that today's FA is generally a showcase for Misplaced Pages, and so accessibility should be a priority (I seem to remember Raul654 having a template to this effect), but if I'm in a minority I'm content to leave it. Leithp 19:35, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with this. Semi-protection is no different to full protection here, as almost everyone who uses the main page for coming into Misplaced Pages is anonymous. For the reasons why protection of the FA at all is not appreciated, I can't say it as well as Raul can. ] 19:37, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

And almost everyone who has edited Hero of Ukraine anonymously in the past 16 hours is a vandal. Actually, I have yet to find a non-vandal edit. Semi-protection is very different than full protection, it allows non-administrators to edit. Hall Monitor 19:39, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

It is no different in this case. The people at whom the protection would have been targetted would have certainly been the newest users, not the non-admin old-timers. ] 19:42, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Of course most edits are vandalism, it is our most visible article ATM. But what type of example does it show people? Oh, here's an article on the encyclopedia anyone can edit... you can't edit it though. -Greg Asche (talk) 19:43, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Probably a better example than when someone wants to learn more about the subject, clicks it, and sees nothing but "YOUR MOM!!! MY MOM!!! HIS MOM!!! HER MOM!!! THEIR MOM!!! IT'S MOM!!! OUR MOM!!! YOUR MOM!!!" . Just my opinion, but that sends the worst kind of message about what Misplaced Pages is. --W.marsh 20:07, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Just because you asked, here's one and I'm sure if I looked I could find a few more. Leithp 19:44, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

No, not just most, but nearly all anonymous edits to this article have been vandalism. To say that anyone can't edit is misleading, we allow registration to any user and do not even require so much as an email address. My concern is that we are turning away readers (who may later become valuable editors) as a result of presenting them with a piece of trash every 2 minutes. Hall Monitor 19:46, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Semi protection requires having been registered for four days. ] 19:48, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

And we allow people to register, we don't make them register to edit. --LV 19:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages, the encyclopedia anyone can edit". Kim Bruning 19:52, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

You didn't see the asterisk? "Misplaced Pages, the encyclopedia anyone* can edit" - * - Only registered users with edits across 100 articles and created after the last 6% of any other users may edit a featured article, and even then you may be blocked from editing either intentionally or unintentionally. Subject to laws in florida and surrounding territory. NO WARRANTIES EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED!!  :) WhiteNight 20:16, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Because of the time constraints here, the article only has a few hours to go as today's FA, I'd like to come to a decision quickly. Can we agree to unprotect it and have a general policy discussion about whether S-protection is appropriate for today's FA? Leithp 19:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, since the concensus is that this article should be subject to vandalism while it is at featured status, I will unprotect it now while this is being discussed. Best regards, Hall Monitor 19:58, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

So, anyone fancy a sweepstake on how long until the first anon vandal edit? I'm going for 20:15. Leithp

20:32, not even close. Leithp 20:37, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Wait, were we playing by Price is Right rules? Hall Monitor 21:07, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

No, we do not protect the main page featured articles - not semi-protection and not full protection - for reasons I explain here. Raul654 20:42, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

This needs to be discussed first. Semi-protection is a new and helpful feature to Misplaced Pages, you do not have authority to unilaterally decide this. Hall Monitor 21:07, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I've been the main author of several front-page articles, and two of them (including Butter, just a few days ago) were very heavily vandalized. I was very active in fighting off the vandalism, as were a number of other good people. It was a stressful, busy day. Even if semi-protection would make it a lot less stressful, it would still be the absolute wrong thing to do. The vast majority of readers are anons; featured articles showcase what's best and unique about Misplaced Pages; that includes editability.

But you know what? Semi-protection wouldn't even make it much less stressful. Clear vandalism is easy to deal with. Roll it back. Tired of doing it? Someone else will usually take care of it too - good vandal hunters do tend to keep an eye on the TFA. The stress comes from the small flood of well-intentioned edits that are awkwardly written, or a little POV, or unreferenced... and semi-protection won't help there. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 22:01, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

As the creator of the article, I noticed only one-three good edits by annons. I seen an annon fix some of my grammar, I seen an annon provide the article's first interwiki link: to KA (Georgian) and some other interwiki links. I do not mind the article being unleashed to the world for 24 hours without any kind of protection: articles like this will rarely get touched except by me or other people who work on UA-related articles (the same with Hero of Belarus, which I also created). Zach 00:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a big problem with semi-protection. Partially because I don't hold any "wiki" ideology... just what allows a big group like us to write a decent encyclopedia. Maximize exposure and minimize the negative aspects of that exposure. For anonymous IPs on these we usually get grammar edits and interwiki. I think anonymous editing is more important to interwiki links since I'd have an account on about 13 different wikis if I did counted everywhere I've done an interwiki. While it's on the main page I don't have a big problem with semiprotection... it's just damage reduction. Like, the reason why there's a case around the Mona Lisa. ~_~ gren グレン 00:54, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The last I checked, the Louvre doesn't want you painting on any of their pieces (featured or not)... so I'm not sure I trust the analogy. The anon who makes a grammar edit today (or even a bad test edit) might be tomorrow's great editor; we had better have a really exceptional reason if we're going to turn them away from the main article at the front gate. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 03:35, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Please note that while vandalism is vandalism is vandalism, not all vandalism is malicious. Often people find it hard to believe we allow anyone to edit, and not everyone's first edit contributes positively to Misplaced Pages. I think it's a bad idea to semi-protect the featured article of the day as per Raul. Featured article should exemplify everything about Misplaced Pages, including our wiki philosophy of allowing anyone to edit. Johnleemk | Talk 08:49, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Well said. Rx StrangeLove 05:44, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Disrespect of community opinion from an admin

Jimbo just closed the CFD on Category:Living people against 88% delete — three times. ZOMG DISRESPECT FOR TEH COMMUNITY!! I fully expect some idiot to block him for "disruption" - David Gerard 21:36, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

-) The issue here, if we want to wax philosophical for a moment, is the knee jerk taking of things to CfD (or AfD) lacking any sort of discussion. The category was created this morning by Danny and amost immediately placed on CfD, and then a bunch of votes came pouring in with absolutely zero acknowledgement of the reasons the category was created in the first place.

Thoughtful consensus requires us to elevated reasoned slow discussion over kneejerk proceduralism.--Jimbo Wales 22:14, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

ROTFL. Ok. I've had my laugh for the day. You had me going for a moment. I was about to edit with an instinctive "That's no Admin, that's the boss" type response, until I looked again at who the comment was from. Good one. :) - TexasAndroid 22:18, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay, blocked. You just spend that time thinkihng about what consensus means, OK? --Celestianpower 22:20, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Simple; it's a crap idea. If you want something like this, I could make a list in minutes of articles that have a birth category but no death category, that way we won't have to go to the effort of adding another category to multiple 100,000 articles, and wont have the extra category clogging up our already over categorised articles. Martin 22:25, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Lots of dead people don't have a death date - David Gerard 22:28, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Another positive side effect. We can add them. Martin 22:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Hey, ANI gets far to full, can we take any content debate elsewhere (like ). Comment on the process if you like. Me, I think the debate is somewhat over. --Doc 22:32, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Also, lots of people don't have a birth date either... but we can definitely say if they're alive. Shimgray | talk | 22:37, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

How many have this new category though? I think possibly a lot less. Martin 22:40, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

This diff comment is priceless. Hall Monitor 22:31, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

is this a test to see if we have any guts? If we blindly follow like sheep and start categorizing under Living people, do we fail that test?--Alhutch 22:53, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

If I assume good faith on that comment, it comes out remarkably dumb. So I'll assume you're being subtly witty - David Gerard 23:05, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

please disregard my comment.--Alhutch 00:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

What is with people's antipathy towards this? This feels to me like people rebelling because their precious community isn't quite as important as they thought. Don't worry, you don't have to categorise anything if you don't want to. ] 23:00, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I have yet to hear rationaly how having these in a category will make wikipedia better in any way. The idea that it helps to NPOV them is not based in reality. It will just waste the time of good editors. Martin 23:07, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

This is simply another examle of an fair-to-average idea that, since it wasn't explained or discussed with the "community" first, goes over like a lead zeppelin. Smashing dissent is bad, but "knee-jerk" reactions can often be avoided by a little prose beforehand. Was this talked about on the pump or signpost before its creation? As to the actual cat, it's poorly executed, but an ok concept. We shouldn't be using categories for meta-data, but having a tag of some description that allows us to identify articles that are potential "problems" is good sense. This category actually worked. While mocking it for being the dumbest thing ever (prior to its purpose being explained on IRC) I looked at the only article in the category at that time. Here's the result: . Is there some reason that we are all thumbs when it comes to this sort of change? - brenneman 23:38, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Discussing is fine, but a wiki doesn't require people to make an argument for creation. Remember the all-important phrase: If in doubt, don't delete. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 02:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The idea has been kicked around on wikien-l before, in the post-Seigenthaler debate; I recognised it when it was announced, certainly. Shimgray | talk | 00:09, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

wikien-l != wikipedia - brenneman 01:19, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

agree.--Alhutch 01:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Once again those of us not on wikien-l or IRC are left behind. -- nae'blis _(talk) 03:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

You are not prohibited from joining. ] 13:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

No, I'm not, but I didn't come here with the understanding that I would be required to be in three places to get the full picture. If the discussion page of the Category itself had been used to explain the rationale here, as Aaron Brenneman says, a lot of this could have been avoided. -- nae'blis _(talk) 18:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

It appears this is not in fact the case, and a lot gets decided there. WP:ANI isn't all of Misplaced Pages either. - David Gerard 14:28, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• This is evil! We should all immediately join the pileup lynchmob vote here! This is vital for the Wiki!Radiant_>|< 01:34, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo is right. David is right. If the procedures are so moribund that they're needlessly killing good stuff, we should rely on administrators to use their brains and look behind the numbers. Any administrator should feel proud to refuse to delete an article or other organizational component of the encyclopedia if he isn't happy that an argument has been made for its deletion. The article can always be deleted another day if it's really so bad. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 02:36, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

But the procedure being moribund should not be an excuse for revert wars or wheel wars. As you said yourself, use your brains (and I would add, instead of your admin tools). Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 03:09, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I see no evidence of wheel warring here. In fact I see no deletions or undeletions at all on this category. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 07:57, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

This is all a bit besides the point, but don't you think it is a bit of a stretch to jump from "Jimbo's word is law" to "Any andmin can do whatever he pleases, as long as he's called Tony" (which, with all due respect, seems to be your opinion on a lot of things lately) ? -- Ferkelparade π 13:57, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

How on earth did we get 88% delete on a necessary maintainence category? Was there confusion about what it was for? -- SCZenz 02:48, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Err, yes? That's exactly the problem. It wasn't clear what this was for, it wasn't widely discussed, and in the absence of that, asking for it to be deleted wasn't unreasonable. Looking back at ads on the wiki, then on to user boxes, and now this, it begins to appear that someone is trying to make a point. In every one of these cases, having some modicum of respect for the peons and taking a week or two to talk about it and explain it first would have been the smart thing to do. Why are things continuing to be done the hardest way possible, followed by cheers from some quarters of "Hooray for us! Stick it to 'em!" ?? - brenneman 02:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Asking for clarification would have been even less unreasonable. ] 13:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Explaining on-wiki the need for a new administrative supercategory might have been even more reasonable. -- nae'blis _(talk) 18:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The reasons they gave for keeping the category were adbrupt and unclear - that and the fact that someone (in this case jimbo himself) blanked the page several times throughout the debate... plus the "delete voters" had several rather valid points either way they were hard to ignore. WhiteNight 02:57, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Clucking and shaking your heard about this won't do. Just use your head. Categories and articles should not be needlessly deleted. Take note of the clear message and act accordingly. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 08:00, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Again and again I ask: Why chose the most disruptive method? It's all very well to say the first ten or fifteen times "why waste time with the process, I'll just do the right thing". Eventually it must become clear that more time will be wasted by acting unilaterally. At that point, if the disruptive behavior continues, surely reasonable people can ask, "Is there some other motivation"?
brenneman 08:07, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of fact in this case nothing was deleted, and no discontinuity occurred. A few people who couldn't imagine that a category of living people could serve a useful purpose in the wake of the Seigenthaler affair came away disappointed that they didn't get to watch another category go into the memory hole, but I'm sure they'll get over it. The use of the word "disruption" here is somewhat wide of the mark.

As for your continual personal sniping, surely you recognise that Jimbo Wales and Tony Sidaway are two quite separate individuals inhabiting different continents and with quite distinct opinions, that he cannot be held responsible for my actions and I cannot be held responsible for his. Speculation that we may have a common motive for choosing a course of action of which you, personally, may disapprove and believe to be disruptive is isn't really going to help. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 10:14, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Describing everyone who opposed this in CfD as deletionist maniacs isn't helpful, Tony. The fact is that a lot of the discussion (not a vote?) on CfD was about alternatives such as Persondata or using birth dates/death dates to accomplish this same goal without the need to tag thousands of articles by hand. Truth is it was already a discussion, albeit lacking certain information, when it got cut-off by our fearless leader. -- nae'blis _(talk) 18:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you got the impression from the above that I think those involved in the discussion were "deletionist maniacs" (not the kind of language I use), and I apologise if I inadvertently permitted you to think that I think any such thing. My point pertained to people who, in deletion discussions, seem to treat them as some kind of silly game and Misplaced Pages something more closely resembling a school playground than a very large encyclopedia that requires maintainance. This does not give a good picture of Misplaced Pages decision-making; frankly the facile and unhelpful comments make me sick to my stomach. It's not about deletionism, it's about a comprehensive failure to engage with the project in a constructive manner. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 19:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I see a different message than Tony sees: When Jimbo speaks, listen.

What the situation looks like to me (from the history; I was not involved) is that the category was nominated, and Jimbo said stop. He was ignored; that was inappropriate, regardless of what objections were used to justify it. Every contributor is free to disagree with Jimbo, but they are not free to act in defiance of his authority. To make matters worse, when the vote was continued in defiance of his request that the discussion be moved, he clarified himself that the vote was to end immediately, and was ignored a second time. If that was not disrespectful enough, when he closed the CfD, he was reverted. At that point, a less patient individual would have blocked the reverter and dared anyone to think about overturning it, but he did not do that.

It is unfortunate that this situation happened, but it is an opportunity for all of us to remember that Jimbo is the boss. When he gives orders, it is our obligation to abide by them. We are free to voice our concerns and objections, and to refuse to participate in them, but we may not act in defiance to them. In this situation, if individuals object to the category, do as you are asked and voice your objections on the talk page. If the matter is not settled to your satisfaction, then decline to participate: don't add articles to the category, and don't watch the articles in the category. But, do not act in open defiance by insisting on deleting the category; to do so is disrespectful to Jimbo, without whom we would not have this project, and is disruptive to the orderly function of the site. It has been argued that discussions such as this CfD are the operation of the rules and processes that keep the site running; however, continuing this particular CfD in opposition to Jimbo's direct orders is a disruption of the most central rule to the orderly function of Misplaced Pages: The final decision on any matter is reserved to Jimbo, and there is no appeal of his decision. When we forget that, then we have forgotten that which is most central to Misplaced Pages. Essjay 08:22, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

No one is the boss of human knowledge. Jimbo's intervention here should be heeded, moreso than the intervention of any other user, but ultimately Jimbo has no real authority here. The only legal or moral power Jimbo has is to temporarily force us to relocate it to a server he doesn't control. I respect Jimbo a great deal—more than almost any other living human—and I agree we should listen to Jimbo and respect his wishes. But Misplaced Pages is not an autocracy and Jimbo is not the benevolent dictator of human knowledge. He makes no attempt to be, either—he said so himself on C-SPAN a few months ago, and this is one of the prime reasons he is worthy of our respect. — Phil Welch Are you a fan of the band Rush? 08:38, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Being a somewhat frequenter from the C2 and MeatBall wikis I see sort of where he is coming from on the CfD thing... basically that all they are is a content management system available to the public. In reality though they are terrible discussion mechanisms due to interface problems etc., plus wikis at least originally were never designed to deal with spam and if someone wanted a page they generally got it. Oh, and in the name of wikis everywhere, I just deleted the category, because I think, at the very least in its current incarnation is really bad idea - which I think may result in good discussion (for everyone except myself, of course :)). To be honest I sort of envy the nastigrams Zoe gets, so here's to some of them on my talk page! (As well as an RfC, RfAr, Immediate de-adminship what have you). At the least it is an interesting experiment and I can say that I had real BALLS! WhiteNight 09:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Whatever Jimbo thinks, but this category is teh dumbest thing ever. In fact, every category that could contain >100,000 articles is pretty dumb.  Grue  09:28, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, that category sucks. Jimbo controls Misplaced Pages and what he says has to be done, but that doesn't make this category any less stupid. cookiecaper (talk / contribs) 09:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Er, I am a bit divided here. THere are two very good arguments on both sides. For deletion: The category is ridiculous and will most certainly be horridly overpopulated if kept. For inclusion: Jimbo disagrees with the previous argument and he has the power to issue decrees. I see that RN deleted the category, since that is contrary to Jimbo's clearly expressed will I have decided to restore it. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Does he though? I can't off hand recall the board vote that gave him such powers. Incedentaly how are the french and german versions of this going down?Geni 09:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, he can. As I understand it, Jimbo controlls 60% of the board seats; he has one, and Michael Davis and Tim Shell were appointed by him, as will be thier successors when they leave the Board. Two memebers (Angela and Anthere) are elected. Essjay 10:19, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

How does appointing members mean you control them? They do not have to vote the same way as Jimbo. cookiecaper (talk / contribs) 11:05, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I've got reservations about this category (although I'm willing to be convinced), but I agree with Essjay. Of course, no one is 'the boss of human knowledge', so you are entitled to take your human knowledge and fork off. Actually, in the end, for better and for worse, Misplaced Pages is an autocracy. Thankfully, the autocrat appears willing to have a discussion - so go discuss it with him. --Doc 09:56, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Imho, the category is stupid, but if Jimbo likes it, let him have it (is this a category designed for a sort of "Living People patrol", because vandalism to LP is considered more harmful? You still need people agreeing with this, and doing it, Siegenthaler or no Siegenthaler). We have lots of stupid categories, and while there are reasons to walk away from Misplaced Pages in a huff, this is not one. (We could have a template "deleted but for the grace of Jimbo" or something but maybe that would be disruptive). dab (ᛏ) 10:44, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, that's slightly inaccurate. Tim and Michael rarely vote on Board issues, and Jimbo has undertaken never to vote against Angela and Anthere when they agree. ] 13:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, both are completely inaccurate. I do not control the board. I do not control Tim and Michael. Tim and Michael always vote on board issues. In terms of actual votes, nearly all of our actual votes have been unanimous but that's because we discuss and find consensus about what to do. In general, it is not true that Tim and Michael agree with me about everything, all the members of the board are intelligent and independent voices. Don't be misled by trolling on the encyclopedia article about me. :-)

My special powers within the community have nothing to do with the discussion about this category, but it is probably worthwhile to discuss where they come from: the community itself. Why do we have explicit exemptions written into virtually every policy in Misplaced Pages? Because of overwhelming support within the community for the notion that we are freer to explore procedures for decision making under conditions of ambiguity and consensus when we also have a safety valve. It is not my intention to be the benevolent dictator of anything, but it is my intention to protect our communities core purpose against irrational rules-bound processes.--Jimbo Wales 21:22, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

So what...it's one thing in a million...Misplaced Pages is not paper! It's good to be the king!--MONGO 10:57, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Stupidly alrge numbers of catigories don't look too good in certian skins.Geni 12:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

well, if 88% of people are going to refuse to use it, it'll just sit there gathering dust... dab (ᛏ) 13:29, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I have a feeling that number is exaggerated by the number of people who can't wait to rebel against any kind of wiki authority. ] 14:04, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Can I rebel against the tyranny of the majority?--Doc 14:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Could someone please point to a good reference for those of us who weren't around much in December and don't happen to know about the "Seigenthaler affair"? I assume Seigenthaler has accused us of libel, but I'd like to know more about the situation than what I can glean from context here. Thanks, Johntex\ 20:02, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • John Seigenthaler r.. This was a major kerfuffle and made international news, so it's in the article. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 21:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Better, see John Seigenthaler Sr. Misplaced Pages biography controversy for lots of details. DES 21:23, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

And can somebody please explain what this is about to those of us who don't use the IRC channel? Leithp 21:03, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

One last note about all this from Jimbo: I'm the absolute first to say that things should be discussed with the community first. That is, indeed, what my big beef is about the current dysfunction of AfD/CfD. Rather than *discuss* concerns about the category (some of which are of course valid, and yes, we should discuss them), on either Danny's talk page, or on the category talk page, it was immediately put up for a deletion vote without asking questions. And then when I tried to stop the vote and hold a discussion, there was a lot of bitching and moaning as if somehow I was trying to stop the discussion! --Jimbo Wales 21:15, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Uh yeah, the discussion about the deletion of the thing seems to happen on the AfD/CfD page. I think this is better than on the talk pages. Why do you not agree? cookiecaper (talk / contribs) 22:37, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

(after edit conflict): As I understand it, the proposal is for a category that would in theory apply to every biographical article for a person currently living. This would be a quite large category, albiet not the largest we have. It would surely be large enoughj not to be useful for navigation. As I understand it, the arguemnt is that it could and would be used for various mantanence tasks -- for example, via "related changes" it could allow what amounts to a special version of the recent changes page specifically for biographical articles about living people. This will only work if at lest most such articles are indeed included in the category. There may be better ways to accomplish these objectives -- at least some in the various discussions have so asserted. The category does have the advantage that it does not require and code changes to MediWiki software. And it has been endorsed by Jimbo. It seems to me that setting up a project with the defined goal of monitering biographical articles and avoiding vandalism, libel, and false info there; and discussing technical methods at such a project would have been wiser. But that isn't what the people involved chose to do. The category has been created. Jimbo has intervened agaisnt its deletion. Why not now set up such a wiki-project? The project could be a place to discuss how to use the category, and what other tools might (right away or eventually) supplement or replace the category. If the project members, including Jimbo, finally agree that the category in unneeded, its delation will probably be uncontoversial. As long as such a project is finding or considering ways to make good use of the category, I don't see why anyone ought to be intent on trying to delete it. DES 21:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

It seems like a crazy idea to me. But when this guy said 'what about an encyclopedia anyone can edit?' most probably thought that was a crazy idea too. So this guy (even if he wasn't the boss) should be given a lot of latitude to try out his crazy ideas. Certainly don't try to snuff them out at first sight.--Doc 10:29, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes if we could go back to focusing on the matter at hand that would be nice. I posted this at WP:AN but I'll post it here again. This is probably the most broad category ever made on Misplaced Pages. Do you know how much of a hassle it's going to be to list EVERY single person who's alive. That's a pretty useless, if you ask me. I don't think we need a category to help us divide the people who are alive. I think Categories should group people/things that are unique. Unique in bieng able to list a few people/things into a category of something specific that not everyone has. Something that broad like if their alive or not is hardly useful. Navigation-wise it won't help at all, it lists basically everyone! IMHO, I think this should be put up for deletion. SWD316 07:00, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Miguel de Icaza attacks me

Hi, I'm editing the wikipedia page on Mono. User Miguel.de.Icaza is always attacking me and he calls me a DotGNU advocate. He cannot be objective at all. It is like if Bill Gates would edit the wikipedia page on Windows. Can anyone limit his access to edit the wikipedia page on Mono, so that his limit to edit he page is limited to *strictly factual*?

My contact email is : krokas@email.su -- krokas

Unless you stop removing comments from Talk:Mono development platform, there really isn't much to talk about. If you cannot engage in dialogue with someone there is no way to resolve your dispute. Removing comments is against Misplaced Pages policies, and it could lead to you losing your editing privileges. Rhobite 04:54, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Why you don't just make everyone register before any editing and stick this to the top. If this is not allowed at all just remove this possibility. So being said this is very strange from wikipedia admins.

Well, please start thinking about this policy now, because it's very important. Articles are written on article pages. Comments about articles are written on talkpages. You're allowed to edit text posted by other people on article pages, that's what being a wiki means. You're not allowed to make any changes in signed comments posted by other people on talkpages, or to delete any part of them. Doing that is against policy, is dishonest (making others appear to say, and sign, something they never did say, making them appear to not have replied although they did, etc, etc), and makes dialogue impossible. Therefore, as Rhobite says, desist immediately from changing or removing other people's comments on talkpages, or there's nothing to talk about. I hope this clears things up. Bishonen | talk 22:25, 23 January 2006 (UTC).

User Miguel.de.Icaza tells absolutely wrong things about me that are false. Misplaced Pages is not his blog and he tells non-sense. He has written false things about me in the Talk|page, and they look to have the only purpose to not allow me add my opinion, as he didn't address me. And if an opinion of anyone is different to the opinion of User Miguel.de.Icaza it doesn't mean to be a wrong one. Very indicative is that user Kesla did agree with the existence of the term. And User Miguel.de.Icaza only attacked me about the frase "Portable .NET doesn't have any problem with patents" by saying to copy/past his email to User Kesla in the Misplaced Pages page. Only then he started to attack me because of the term "proprietary open source", which in fact does exist, and which was used on the wikipedia page already for 2 months, before user Miguel.de.Icaza didn't start his attack to me.

User David Björklund says in the Talk:Mono development platform "...i wrote the history-section, not de Icaza. I used this source for this (it's in the reference section on the main page)..." Yes, it just shows another time that I was right to edit the history section. An internet maillist cannot be considered as a source of verifiable information :

"...Misplaced Pages should only publish material that is verifiable and is not original research. One of the keys to writing good encyclopedia articles is to understand that they should refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by a reputable publisher..." I ask the Misplaced Pages administration to remove the editing possibility to user David Björklund untill the time he shows a possibility to follow the Misplaced Pages Policies and guidelines.

The source of the information for the Mono wikipedia page that is refered is and specifically the sample chapter which only says that Miguel de Icaza has really started the Mono project. I ask that all the extra information that was added to the history section is removed. Untill other sources of verifiable information than maillist are found please remove too the sections "Mono and Microsoft's patents" and "Software developed with Mono". Thanks.

Harassment - Jonah Ayers/Biff Rose

This user, Jonah Ayers (talk · contribs), along with possible sock puppet Maslow (talk · contribs), seems to be creating articles about non-notable people for the sole purpose of harassment, in retaliation for administrative work connected to his editing. Two editors report having received menacing phone calls, apparently from Ayers. I ask whether the recent creations are possibly speedy deletions candidates. Ayers, with Category:Misplaced Pages:Suspected sockpuppets of Jonah Ayers, is engaging in unacceptable and disruptive behavior. Is this blatant enough or do we have to go to the ArbCom to get relief from his mischief? -Will Beback 10:01, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

How has he got their phone numbers? Secretlondon 11:57, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

He has their names. -Will Beback 15:59, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

And I might add, on one occasion he posted a phone number with a request that people call to harass an editor. (The actual info has been deleted). -Will Beback 16:42, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

nope. meant to post my number, but it's one digit off by mistake, and then was told that wasn't a good idea, for what are now obvious reasons...Jonah Ayers 18:59, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

No, if that had been the case you would not have been blocked for one week for divulging personal information. Is there any help available from admins? -Will Beback 22:00, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I'll take a look at it, Will. I've noticed Maslow doing this once or twice, but I'm not familar with the background. SlimVirgin 22:03, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there is any harrassment going on here, it's much like the case of brandt, and wiki watch, etc... you're really just falling into a category of people who will be included on the encycolpedia... much as slimvirgin does not warrant an entry, or will beback, in slimvirgin's case it doesn't seem like she does much for her community other than online wikipedian work, so her information wouldn't need to be placed online, but as for Will mcWhinney, this is a person whose father is worthy of an entry, and who also works in the community, and was involved in an interesting skirmish in the ranks of the sierra club, so for that alone his article has merit, and isn't worth deletionJonah Ayers

For the record: there is an AFD ongoing · Katefan0/mrp 22:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I've speedied it because it was created as part of this dispute, which seems to have involved harassment, and if editors are being telephoned at home, it's obviously quite serious. I won't wheel war over it, so if someone else restores, I won't delete again, but I hope no one else will. I've also asked Jonah to email me, because I'm quite willing to try to help resolve the dispute if he'll allow me. SlimVirgin 22:17, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, it was clearly created in bad faith, I doubt anyone will disagree with you there. But the contents itself I don't think quite met the speedy criteria; that being said, I think it was a smelly enough move that it ought to be left well enough alone. It would've been deleted anyway. I certainly won't restore it. · Katefan0/mrp 22:22, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Being called at home, or having one's phone number published with an admonition for others to call, is harassment, plain and simple. Revealing the private information of editors is harassment. Defacing pages is vandalism, impersonating editors is harassment, violating the 3RR is prohibited, etc. This is not like the Brandt case, unless you're referring to his calling an editor's emplyer. -Will Beback 22:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean baout getting called at home, and the impersonation of editors waS started by biff rose who was editing his article as sojambi pinola, and then pinela, etc... all of whom we're banned, by you I believe. This case is similar to the brandt case in that people have been messing with edits and creating a hostile place to edit, i.e., you Willmcw aka Will Beback and its interesting to note that you were according to your posts not going to use the Willmcw as your administrator any longer, but function solely as Will Beback, you said that you would not do that, that Willmcw would end in 2005, yet as recent as january 10th you used both identities to enforce Administrative blocks and votes etc.... making one, your pick therefore a sockpuppet... So you see, it's your own behavior that is suspect, and you keep trying to turn the tables and say it is others...Jonah Ayers

Regarding your charge of using two accounts, I used my old account solely for the purpose of ArbCom voting because of a special requirement that voters must have accounts registered prior to October, and I gave both names to prevent confusion. -Will Beback 06:43, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Isn't that against the rules? I think you should work it out so you have one identity, and dont' seem to be some kind of sockpuppet. Please advise, I won't make anymore trouble with this one. Just have one of the administrators say that what you're doing is ok, and not being a sockpuppet, exercising admin rights via two different users, controlled by the same person.. if that is allowed, because voting in arbcom decisions is an admin duty, and theere is a consensus among admins that this is not in fact a punishable situation, then I will back off, smells fishy, but I want to see the honest standards of wiki enforced, because you seem to have a double standrad, blocking some people for 3rr violations, and not others, and then this...Jonah Ayers 07:07, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Having multiple accounts is not against Misplaced Pages's policies, so long as they are not used to a) be disruptive, b) evade a block or manipulate consensus, or c) violate Misplaced Pages's other policies. Besides which, he clearly identified himself. It isn't as if he was trying to vote twice. · Katefan0/mrp 07:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

To confirm: My actual name is Steve Espinola. My username is Sojambi Pinola. User:Jonah Ayers has created several sockpuppets which are variations on either my name or my username, for the purposes of confusion. He also created a username Biffrose and used it to write libel about singer/songwriter/comedian Biff Rose. Biff Rose has not contributed to Misplaced Pages. He has expressed thanks to me that I removed libel about him from the article, including claims of kidnapping and child molestation .

"Jonah" also created a username which is my home phone number. He got the number from my webpage, where I had naively included it for the sake of gig bookings. The username was deleted, but I believe admins can still access the evidence. This username posted on the Biff Rose page at 00:48, 27 December 2005 (UTC). He has called my house five or six times, one of those times at 1:40 am. Two of the times he left obscene messages. One time, right after I had left a response to his writing on his talk page, the phone message was "Stay off my talk page." That strongly implies, to me, that it was him. Hard to prove, of course.

Again: Category:Misplaced Pages:Suspected_sockpuppets_of_Jonah_Ayers

Jonah often posts as anonymous IPs. Here's a sequence of messages he left on User:Derex's page where he spells out much of his MO: ].

One of these IPs also posted on Biff Rose's message board and threatened harm to Mr. Rose at an upcoming LA show.

It may be worthwhile to check out the user contributions of User:Steve espinola. Again, that is not me, but it is the same user as User: Jonah Ayers, indulging in pretty outrageous vandalism. He created that username specifically to harrass me.

--Sojambi Pinola 15:15, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I've blocked the Jonah Ayers account indefinitely, because he continued posting personal details after being warned by two admins that he risked the account being blocked indefinitely. There has also been multiple sockpuppetry and possibly telephone calls to people's homes, so it has gone far enough. SlimVirgin 01:39, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• Here is more evidence that User:Jonah Ayers has been involved in systematically harrassing and insulting editors he considers as enemies: here, here, and here. In this last example he is admittedly using a sockpuppet to evade his blocked account . Marcuse 03:24, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Question

Jonah was just blocked indefinitely by SlimVirgin. Are we sure that User:Maslow is a sock of Jonah? If so, that account should also be blocked. --Woohookitty 06:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Certainyl seems like a sock puppet to me. Blocked.--Sean|Black 06:45, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, everybody, for the help handling this problem. Cheers, -Will Beback 07:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Laptopbomber (Contribs)

I've blocked Laptopbomber (talk · contribs) 31h for personal attacks after a warning. However, he seems to think that he's being unfairly targetted (look at his contribs first before you say anything). Since I have to go offline now, I request another admin to look the case over and, if they find in their judgment a block to be harsh, to unblock and explain. However, his persistent want of making attacks against fuddlemark cannot be condoned. NSLE _(T+C) 11:03, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I think 31 hours is fair. Secretlondon 11:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

So do I. This user has basically started editing wikipedia today (two minor edits prior to today, both in November), and immediately began a crusade against User:MarkGallagher. He needs to be told that this is not done, and a 31 hour block seems like a fair way to do this. Aecis 13:54, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Apparently he wants to file a complaint "in person"... heheh. NSLE _(T+C) 01:41, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't even know what I've done. Apparently he's unhappy that I speedied something, or closed an AfD, or opined in an AfD, some time over the past three months. If we had access to deleted contribs en masse (as used to be the case with Kate's Tool), I could at least take a look and see if I've deleted anything of his. I've never heard of this fellow. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 02:26, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Aladin (magician)

Not sure if this is the right place for it, but I'd like to have other admins' input on it. A huge revert war is going on right now, with both sides claiming consensus and/or the recent AfD I closed favours their position. I'm tempted to block DreamGuy or protect the page, but I won't do either for now (unless someone violates the 3RR). Johnleemk | Talk 12:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I would have called that afd as delete. The strongest argument in favour of keeping was that he was an advisor to the cabinet - he was actually vice chair of a Greater London Authority working group. No-one is arguing that the working group is worthy of an article.. There's been a sockpuppet check which indicated vote stacking previously. I think we are being used for PR purposes. Secretlondon 13:24, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• • Can I just point out that firstly none of the sockpuppets took part in the 2nd AFD. Only 4 sockpuppets took part in the first AFD and the result was 19-5, thus without sockpuppets it would have been 15-5. However, I understand that some of the comments by the sockpuppets could have possibly influenced peoples minds…although it was vigorously pointed out that there were sockpuppets in it by Peter_S. and DreamGuy, thus people were less likely to be influenced by them as they were made aware. There’s also a TV show about aladin’s daughter and family on the National Geographic Channel called Running For Freedom: Roxanna's Story and he’s been on a radio station called The Family Tech Show. So it’s not just like he’s been the vice chair of a Greater London Authority working group. However, I do believe that aladin was originally over hyped and this has lead to the articles contravestoy. Englishrose 13:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Quite possibly. In the meantime, I've protected the page to put a stop to the edit war. Radiant_>|< 13:26, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Also, on closer examination, DreamGuy has broken the 3RR on this one, so I've blocked him. Other people have also reverted to DreamGuy's version, so this may not actually obviate the need for protection. Radiant_>|< 13:35, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Maybe I'm not counting straight but I don't see a 3RR violation there. Could you clarify? :) - Haukur 14:02, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
      • , , , , . Five reverts by Dream Guy, within 24 hours. Radiant_>|< 14:44, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
        • Looks like 36 or 48 hours to me. Johnleemk | Talk 14:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
        • Indeed, this is not a 3RR violation. Radiant, would you oppose an unblock? android79 14:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
          • Indeed, this is not a 3RR violation. However, I stand by the opinion that this is excessive reverting. Thus, I should have said "blocked for revert warring" rather than "blocked for 3RR". If people are of the opinion that making a number of sequential reverts is perfectly fine as long as one sticks to the letter of policy and makes exactly three reverts per day, they should probably unblock. Radiant_>|< 14:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
            • I see no evidence that exactly three reverts were made per day, and it takes more than one party to revert war, but only one editor has been blocked in this case. I need to take a closer look. android79 15:00, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
              • It was DreamGuy vs. everyone else. DreamGuy was the only person redirecting it to Aladdin, everyone else was reverting it back. You can't defend him this time. Englishrose 16:09, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
                • If one editor is reverting, and a group of other editors opposes this by also reverting, both sides are engaging in a revert war. There was discussion ongoing on the talk page; either side could have stopped reverting at any time. The page is protected now; I see no need to block one party, effectively halting the discussion, when there is no longer any way for the revert war to continue. android79 17:10, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the 3RR doesn't imply a right to revert three times a day. It's the reverting without waiting for consensus to emerge that is the disruptive behavior. I'll say this till I'm blue in the face, there are few edits so urgently needed that they can't wait until consensus emerges. - Taxman 16:34, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Note: there has been a related revert war at Aladdin (disambiguation) over whether this page should include a link to Aladin (magician) or not. It seems clear to me that if the Aladin (magician) article is to be retained, and particularly if Aladin is to redirect to the dab page (as it now does) then the dab page should include an entry for the magician, while if the page for the magician is to exist only in the histroy for the redir, or is to be deleted compeltely, then there is no reason for an entry on the dab page. Anyone watching this should probably watch the dab page also. DES 18:03, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

But the article isn't going to be retained (as the vote clearly said to get rid of it) so the mention there isn't needed. DreamGuy 03:20, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Here's the summary on what happened with this page:

1) A group of now proven sockpuppets created the article at aladin claiming that such and such articles in such and such papers said such and such about the guy, which turned out to be false.

2) First AfD: The sockpuppetws were voting and a number of editors just took them at their word that these sources said what the sockpuppet (apparently "aladin" himself) claimed they did. Delete failed.

3) Page was updated to only include facts that could be verified and to remove all false claims. Turns out there wasn't much of anything there any more, nothing worth having a Misplaced Pages article about. A number of editors agreed the article had to go, but we wanted to preserve the talk page and history to prove the hoax and the sockpuppeting should the guy come back later.

4) I redirected the page, as there was nothing left. One editor complained that redirecting wsa the same as deleting so we should have a vote. AfD part 2... But those of us who exposed the hoax didn't want the proof of the hoax deleted, so we voted "KEEP BUT REDIRECT". Keep article on Misplaced Pages was small minority of votes, overwhelmingly reject by the outright deletes and redirect.

5) AfD 2 ends without it being outright deleted but with the clear consensus to either delete or redirect without preserving contents. So I redirect.

6) Now we have a person comlaining that the vote was "keep" so that it therefore can;t be redirected... OK, so, the argument I guess is if you want the page to stay, consensus to redirect isn;t enough, and then voting to redirect isn;t enough either, in fact apparently there is no way to redirect at all. I ignored this person as clearly not understanding how things work and trying to wikilawyer the results to do what only a tiny minority wanted.

7) Then some uninformed outside person came out of nowhere and decided to move the entire article to aladin (magician) and redirect aladin, which ignores the whole point that the redirect was intended to get rid of the article but preserve the history and talk. Now we have people arguing there that it can;t be redirected because nobody looking for the magician would be looking to be redirected to Aladdin, except the only reason that's even there in the first place is someone jumped in and overruled everyone who voted.

8) So, basically, we have a couple of people clearly ignoring the wishes of the majority of people who voted, demanding that redirects can never happen without a vote and then ignoring the vote when it happens, and edit warring to overrule clear consensus... and then *I* get blocked for not violating any rules or policies whatsoever? Very, very poor form. Radiant, for future reference, when you screw up and miscount a 3RR violation, the proper thing to do when your error is pointed out to you is to undo the block, not let it stand just because you are grumpy. If you wanted to protect the page, then protect it. If you want to go beyond policy and start blocking people for edit warring, there is a long list of people you should have alsoblocked at the same time.

I think what needs to be done to restore sanity on this page is to move aladin (magician) back to aladin to preserve the comments and history there, then redirect like was originally agreed upon but that some people ignoring policy and common sense keep trying to get around. Creating the new article served no purpose whatsoever other than to try to keep an article the vote didn;t want kept and was only there in the first place from a series of hoax sources from a group of sockpuppets to be used for self-promotional purposes for this "aladin" person. Furthermore, now that we have IDed these sockpuppets, a team of editors should go through and check all of their contribution histories with the goal of undoing other spam and probably hoaxes placed elsewhere. Running around wikilawyering and so forth and letting these spammers get away with it is absolutely the wrong answer. DreamGuy 03:17, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

• Solution Here's an alternative solution, how about DreamGuy get's his head out of the sand and leave things be for once? I don't claim to be an angel here, rather much I'm quite happy being one of those users who just points out the blatant obvious and the blatant obvious in this case to me is that DreamGuyis being stubborn to the point of idiocity. The vote was no consenous; keep, rather than no consenous; re-direct, the margin for the re-direct vote was so minor in fact the re-direct vote if counted properly is only touching a one or two lead, add to the fact that the article wasn't even allowed time to breathe and be verified or written correctly and Dreamguy's constant reverting Incorrectly in my opinion to a mere Aladdin alternate spelling page (at least that's how it more or less looked to me) doesn't actually help.

Further to this, DreamGuy has been acting in rather bad faith calling anyone and everyone who disagrees with him a sockpuppet. In addition he is calling all verifiable sources a hoax, an extreme accuassion. Rather than present his arguement in a dignified manner which would allow for neutral users to vote properly he hypes up the sock-puppet incidents, accusses in bad faith every single other user who comes along and revert wars the page. This is more than enough evidence in my personal opinion to result in blocking said user from even touching the article, regardless of whenever he is "right" or "wrong" since when was it for HIM to decide on a whim when a vote may be declared re-direct or Keep. My point is, the vote was so close people can interpretate it in different ways, of course DreamGuy believes that anyone with an opinion that isn't to his high god glorified standards is Wrong!

Further to this, why is it that various users have managed over MSN to present me with not just one but EIGHT verifiable links of distruptive, bad faith behaviour from DreamGuy of which, SEVEN are up and around on wikipedia. Seriously, I would think that people would take this into account, since after all we would be suspicious of a guy living next door with a criminal record as long as our arms, shouldn't we therefore be suspicious of this indiviual for his stained record on wikipedia, some of which has very dubious results coming out. What makes me wonder is why there are allegations of politics at work here. Regardless, you can take my comments how you will, make an example out of me if you so must, but this has gone to extremities this isn't a community debate it's pratically several users against DreamGuy of course, you can claim he's the victim here of mass hounding, hell we all know what he thinks don't we?

• Summary, why not just stay away from the article instead of continuing your little ego parade regardless of whenever it is in good or bad faith and just allow for those who wish to present a verifiable page do so. Then if you don't like it nominate it for a fourth, fith, sixth, seventh deletion, seeing your behaviour so far I'd theorise it'll go on to twenty five AFD votes until you finally get so many lies in a tangled web that people will finally delete it for you. Then maybe you can get back to your wonderful life outside of wikipedia? I sure would like to go back to mine! =) --RBlowes 19:29, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

But the guy is still utterly non-notable, and farcing around with procedural stuff doesn't change that. Secretlondon 20:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Summary: Look like RBlowes is making incoherent and deceptive statements solely for personal attacks and is outright lying about the results of the second deletion vote. You and yer buddies on MSN can say whatever you want, but I have no stained record here: I have an exemplary record of stopping spammers, hoaxers, sockpuppets and POV-pushers... which of course means every spammer, hoaxer, sockpuppet-user and POV-pusher who didn't get his way is all pissed off.DreamGuy 01:30, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that User:RBlowes's first edits to Misplaced Pages were only on Jan. 2, 2006, when he immediately started voting on articles for deletion... and was already talking to USer:Englishrose (who posted the fraudulent info with fake sources that turned out to be wrong and thus derailed the first vote for deletion) as old friends. I smell a sock. Certainly this person's view is extremely biased and uninformed, as he/she either is brand new and taking the word of a person who largely contributed to the hoax/spam/free advertising or a longtime user under a new account trying to make it appear like his/her side has more support than it really does. Considering the proven sockpuppets in the first vote and the creationof the article, I would recommend sock check on all these "new" users who showed up to go on the attack over this issue. DreamGuy 01:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• That's funny, bring up my edit history, yeah I guess it's "suspect" but then I'm sure anyone who is declared new is. You're just getting paranoid here, so I'll say it again, anyone who doesn't agree with you is a normal human being, they are NOT always going to be sockpuppets, meatpuppets, chickenpuppets, twitpuppets or blatant twiddlytwinkers!

Now that's out of the way, continue to write your blurb on anything with the word "puppet" in it, I'll make it clear though that all that convinced me to join in the aladin debate was just watching the comments roll off and my eyes roll to the other side of my head due to the sheer non-sense from said comments. Beside a no-consenous;keep > your opinion anyway. Feel free to compare me to EnglishRose in the future, although you'll find the two of us are on opposite ends of the spectrum and this is one rare case of which I find myself agreeing with him. --RBlowes 18:16, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I smell an idiot. Just for the record I've requested a sock-puppet check on me and Rblowes just to shut you up. I'm sure the evidence from the last sock check would have said that I'm from Leeds instead of the Indian magician from London that you acussed me of. Englishrose 10:56, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Please read and follow WP:NPA - and sockpuppet checks don't catch meatpuppets, of which we definitely have a bunch popping up. DreamGuy 11:42, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

You wouldn't guess it from his confrontational style but there's actually a lot of truth in DreamGuy's boasting. I don't know the particulars of this case or why DG seems to think it's so important but he does have an impressive record of stopping spam and non-sense. - Haukur 01:50, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I believe that there is ample evidence of DreamGuy's behavior being decidedly anti-social, such as repeatedly redirecting the Aladin (magician) page in violation of consensus, making personal attacks at Talk:Eenasul Fateh and other locations around Misplaced Pages, calling people's contributions "garbage", name-calling people as "obnoxious", and frequently accusing people of lying. Elonka 02:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

When people say outright "Keep but only to redirect and preserve the history", claiming that the vote was to "keep as is and don't you dare redirect it" is nothing but a lie. Sorry if that offends you, but to be blunt, only someone trying to twist facts can deny that. Furthermore, it's clear from Englishrose's actions that he/she was involved from the start in quoting sources that turned out to be fraudulent, claiming that he/she had seen the sources in question and that they said something which, upon checking, turned out to be 100% wrong. I don't know why you showed up out of nowhere and how you think you are justified in making the rather intense claims that you are, but when the article in question has been demonstrated to be part of a hoax publicty campaign by someone lying about sources and posting under a huge number of proven sockpuppets, the more you try to raise a fuss the more suspicious the whole thing looks... especially with you and Englishrose and RBlowes making extremely uncivil remarks and strangely timed accusations. DreamGuy 11:42, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• Englishrose's actions that he/she was involved from the start in quoting sources that turned out to be fraudulent, claiming that he/she had seen the sources in question and that they said something which, upon checking, turned out to be 100% wrong. That's absolute rubbish and you know it. You're the one who's trying to spin a web of deciet and lies. Fact- I wasn't involved from the start. The start of what? The article? The AFD discussion? As for qouting fraudulent sources that's also a decietful comment. The only thing I said that turned out to be unproveable was the "Internation Magician of the Year", which I took in good faith from the article. Upon research...I believe that the award does exist and is hosted at a place called Magic Castle. Quite a few magicians have claimed the won the award. As for the "claiming that he/she had seen the sources in question" that's even more lies from you, cause I've never claimed that I've seen anything without giving links to the relevant sources. You are creating a web of lies in order to fulfil ur dying obsession of trying to make the article out to be false. Just like you were wrong when you claimed that British Press releases are hoaxes. Englishrose 18:21, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• Question to admins: Is this an ok think to do on your own talk page? Petros471 13:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Yeah, it's his talk page, and the edit summary he used there sums it up -- anyone looking solely at his talk page for the story on this block will not get the whole story. Proper talk-page archiving is strongly encouraged, but not required. android79 14:38, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Fry Mumia

Hi, I just tried to create a page entitled Fry Mumia to describe the cultural phenomenen of the Free Mumia movement and the political reaction the phrase has elicted from others. The article was just created yesterday, and has not had a chance to be properly edited, as it came under almost instantaneous attack by Mumia supporters. Could you please add some sort of tag or do something else to allow the article to mature. Much too early to delete. Now I know what it means to be "bitten" as a newcomer on Misplaced Pages. Thanks. Morton devonshire 16:44, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Does it exist or is it just a witty tshirt? It looks like a POV article in any case - how could it be expanded?Secretlondon 16:49, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The point of the article is the cultural movement of Free Mumia and the cultural backlash, not the t-shirt. Morton devonshire 16:51, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Here's something to think about - FRY MUMIA is a response to FREE MUMIA, right? Do we have an article on FREE MUMIA? Then why should we have one on FRY MUMIA? Something to think about. --Golbez 17:04, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sad, I thought I came up with FRY MUMIA all on my own back in 1998. :( Anyway, this chap has a persecution complex . Let's try not to justify his whinging too much. --Golbez 16:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Whinging? Just let the article mature, or is that too much to ask? Morton devonshire 17:00, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Why not just add a para to the Mumia article? If it were to be an actual article it would be called something like Conservative responses to Free Mumia Abu-Jamal protests which doesn't seem to be worthy of its own articleSecretlondon 17:02, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The backlash to Mumia activism could be covered in Mumia Abu-Jamal or a spinoff article. I don't think the current Mumia article covers the opposition to "Free Mumia" enough. However, an article about a little-known T-shirt slogan is not the proper way to cover this movement. The article provides no evidence that this is a notable rallying cry for anti-Mumia activists. Rhobite 17:03, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Tried to add a reference to the main article, but it was removed by the Mumia-protection-society. No chance to actually edit the article, as it keeps getting vandalized with tags, etc. Why not give the article a chance to mature? Morton devonshire 17:05, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Repeating that plea won't get you anywhere. And you didn't just add a single reference to it, you linked to an article you just made, without equal due to "Free Mumia." It's a minor slogan to respond to a less minor slogan, and neither deserve articles. Why do we have to give your article a chance to mature, if there's more to add, add to it, but the consensus seems to be that there is nothing more to add. (Also, the pic you put in the article has no source info) --Golbez 17:08, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The consensus is manufactured sockpuppetry. Morton devonshire 17:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

If you think that it's not remotely possible that so many people think that such an article is inappropriate, why should we take you seriously? --Golbez 17:17, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't take you seriously, because I think you are all the same person. Morton devonshire 17:22, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Well I know I'm not.. Seriously - we're writing an encyclopedia which means references etc. I'm not in the US but I can't imagine that there wouldn't be a backlash to Free Mumia campaigns. Our aim is Neutral Point of View which means we document both sides, as an independent observer. Secretlondon 17:29, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Oops, there goes that last tiny bit of credibility... Carbonite | Talk 17:26, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

So much for admin neutrality. Oh well, no hope here. I'll just stick to the article from now on. Morton devonshire 18:09, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Finally, I now have a list!  : ) Morton devonshire 17:28, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

"Tried to add a reference to the main article, but it was removed by the Mumia-protection-society" - this is pretty much a textbook example of POV forking. Guettarda 17:30, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Secret, would you help edit the article. I don't want it to be my article, I just want to have an article discussing the cultural phenomenen of the FM movement and the cultural backlash. Could use many editors. I invite all of the naysayers here to edit the article. Thanks. Morton devonshire 17:34, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I just did - I removed links about "Free Mumia", since this is an article about "Fry Mumia". All of this should be merged into the Mumia article with a single sentence or two - no more. --Golbez 17:37, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I invite all to contribute to the article. The purpose of the article is to describe the Free Mumia movement as a cultural phenomenen, rather than to discuss the case for or against the man, and rather than the narrow issue of a Fry Mumia t-shirt (which is just an expression of the phenomenen, not the subject itself -- I probably picked the wrong article title). For some, the movement has taken on much larger issues than the man himself, and that's worth exploring and describing. Have at it! Thanks. Morton devonshire 17:46, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

IF you can find evidence for there being a cultural phenomenon, then conceivably we could have an article about that, but certainly this T-shirt slogan hasn't had any evidence presented that it is worth an article. - Taxman 19:15, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

This is just silly. I put up the article for afd, though I didn't know at the time it was so new. In any case, thinking T-shirt slogans don't need individual encyclopedia articles is hardly a political position. However, instead of merely disagreeing and advocating his views, Morton Devonshire has removed the afd tag and accused the editor who restored it of "abuse" and accused those who voted delete of being sockpuppets and biased editors. Gamaliel 20:46, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

You're right, it is silly. Just let the article get edited without all of the Misplaced Pages mechanical tactics -- they just get in the way of creating an acceptable article. Make it "Free Mumia" if you wish -- the title isn't important. I don't want to fight with any of you over votes for deletion tags, neutrality tags and the like -- just edit the friggin article people. Golbez -- quit stalking me dude! Morton devonshire 23:05, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I stalk all martyrs, it really makes them sweat. --Golbez 00:17, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I have redirected the page to Free Mumia Movement, in an effort to try to find some balance. My hope is that editors will discuss the political phenomenen which is the Free Mumia Movement, which is larger than the man himself and his case. Please help me to do this by removing the Afd and other tags. Thanks. Morton devonshire 05:26, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Lewes Priory School administrators vs. students

Per conversation on Talk:Lewes Priory School, I was wondering about some policy precedent. Briefly, a content dispute ensued when an administrator of the school found the Misplaced Pages page about the school and changed it to conform to the "school's views". Users IDing themselves as students of the school changed it back. Protection was enacted and discussion went to the talk page. The problem is that somehow the school admin has found out which students are the contributors on the Misplaced Pages. Due to the admin's tone in the past, I am concerned that some sort of harrassment or coercion may occur. Thoughts on precedent or further action? — Scm83x 17:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Harrassment of Wikipedians by other Wikipedians should result in the harrassers being blocked from editing. User:Zoe| 17:51, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Either way one of the users involved - 80.237.132.33 appears from this diff, to be using an open proxy and I have indefinitely blocked it per standing instructions. --Alf 20:38, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion (and from just a cursory glance at the dispute), there's really nothing we can do except try and explain our policies, guidelines, and standards to the involved parties. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 02:44, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Legal action threatened against Misplaced Pages (and me)

Made by Jmk56, here. Frances Farmer article. Wyss 21:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I have blocked him for making legal threats. FearÉIREANN\ 21:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I just got an email from Jmk56 about this. More to come - David Gerard 17:45, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I've got quite a collection of the things. He's complaining about copyvio's an lible. I haven't managed to get him to say exactly what the copyvio is.Geni 17:48, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

collateral damage

I've permablocked JKpen (talk · contribs) as a troll. Apparently he was using AOL, and now I'm getting e-mails from AOL users affected by the IP block. What do I do? I don't see the address that got blocked with the account name (this is ridiculous. admins need to see IP addresses. This is like hitting people with a club in the dark). dab (ᛏ) 22:51, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Probably, he got caught by the autoblocker. When you block somebody and then they try to edit from an IP address, the IP gets blocked for 24 hours. Since it's AOL, I'm sure other people are now trying to edit Misplaced Pages and are getting thwarted by the autoblocker. You have to look through the blocklog to see the autoblock notice; just click on unblock and lift it. · Katefan0/mrp 22:54, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I lifted a bunch of the autoblocks. You can see the blocklist at Special:Ipblocklist; I had to scroll back about 4-5 pages. · Katefan0/mrp 23:00, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I lifted 5 or 6 also. DES 23:03, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, like 2 whole AOL Ip adresses was blocked and I got severly infected by it as I use AOL. Thanks --Jaranda 23:06, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

UN fortunately AOL changes IP with each Page viewed, so a block on an AOL user can cause the autoblock to affect lots of shared IP addresses. DES 23:09, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Note that this was exactly what the vandal wanted, and even bragged about it on his talk page. What a putz. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 23:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Isn't wikipedia great, I get all my mom's Yiddish phrases even when I'm away from home. gren グレン 23:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Yeah, that's kind of frustrating. The block logs can be a pain to look through. gren グレン 23:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

It would be nice to have a autoblocking whitelist and add all the AOL IPs on it. --Deathphoenix 03:47, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes that would be good I'd think. Should be fairly easy to do. File a feature request/bug report. In the meantime, I think that if you unblock the first autoblock that comes up, then it turns off autoblocking for that username. - Taxman 16:12, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

GNAA member targeting me

Just to let everyone know: Someone pointed me to this edit. Seeing that I knew people who died in the World Trade Center attacks, I find that calling me a terrorist is mildly disgusting and generally a mean thing for us to just brush off. If we want to get really technical about it, we have several policies that specifically talk about this sort of thing, such as Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks. I have politely asked that Blackheartiez remove the statement from his user page, and I am informing the admins that I am trying to deal with this in as cool of a manner as possible. If someone can back me up (or fight this for me; I don't want to lose it because of these lowlives), I'd appreciate it.. Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 01:08, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

This user had only a few surviving edits (eight), none productive. I straight up deleted his user page, and indefinitely blocked him. If this was a bit much, revert me, but this was called for. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 01:24, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, man. Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 01:26, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Sounds just the right thing to me - David Gerard 01:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Blocked user still editing, threatening

Blocked user:Jmk56, having given up on impersonating me, is still editing Frances Farmer and leaving harassing/threatening notes on my talk page, using IP user:67.42.212.86. Wyss 01:29, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Blocked him for 48 hours. Reblock if he continues after the expiry. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 01:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Ongoing vandalism and problem user, block requested

24.2.153.112 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) trying to test the limits of the system by vandalizing Avon, Connecticut received final warning and kept vandalizing. I also suspect this IP to be the IP of Totalnoob911 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who made identical edits. Please block IP and run CheckUser, blocking user if they match. I have tried reasoning with this person. Instead of stopping, they just stopped logging in. -- —WAvegetarian_CONTRIBS 02:08, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

The vandal hasn't called by since 2241 UTC, so doesn't need a block right now. When/if it returns, report it at WP:AIV right away, noting that it is a returning vandal. -Splash 02:10, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Came back roughly two hours after this post. Was blocked by reverter. User:Totalnoob911 hasn't been heard from since my last dealing with them. Hopefully this block will be enough. —WAvegetarian•_{CONTRIBUTIONS}• • 06:30, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

User name: Rillian

I've had problems with Rillian recently and I see others have had problems with him in the past as well. He unfavorably edits VMI's pages, removes archived comments, etc. Please take a look at his contribution history, as he also favorably edits another site. I would greatly appreciate if he would stop reversing my edits and I have communicated this to him as well. Thanks in advance for your help. Tuf 02:22, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Has Jmk56 been unblocked already?

Has Jmk56 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) been released from his indefinite block after a couple of hours? After impersonating me twice, being blocked twice more, then vandalizing my talk page and being blocked again? (see above) Here he is deleting the block notice from his talk page and here he is again posting from an anon IP and asking me to send him a private email. Wyss 02:27, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I can only see him having been blocked once, and never unblocked in the block log... NSLE _(T+C) 02:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I was going to ask the same question: who unblocked him? I don't see any information on an unblock. FearÉIREANN\ 02:33, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I get it. He can edit his talk page using his blocked username. He asked for my email address using yet another anon IP. Wyss 02:35, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

He's now editing from IP user: 207.200.116.138. Wyss 02:40, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Jmk56 blocked but still editing with IP sock

Indefinitely blocked user:Jmk56, after four previous blocks tonight, is still editing from IP user:207.200.116.138 (deleting content, asking me to send him a private email, accusing me of "slanderous lies", claiming he's not the one who's been impersonating/harassing me and would all those "Frances Farmer fans" out there please "stop harassing Wyss." Reminds me of the Sollog wars). Wyss 03:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

• I've walked away from it for now. Wyss 04:07, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

• Now he's calmed down a bit (after all this) and made some very helpful and restrained edits/corrections to Frances Farmer (using the anon proxy), without removing any content. Wyss 05:19, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

• Only to document this, sockpuppet user:207.200.116.138 admitted he was blocked user:Jmk56 in this edit. Wyss 06:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Jmk56 used an IP to post more legal threats on his talk page against Wyss. The threats were removed and the page protected to stop any more legal threats being posted. The AOL IP being used was then given the standard AOL-length block. FearÉIREANN\ 06:09, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

The moment I thought he had calmed down and after I actually thanked him for the edits (even if he did make them as an AOL sock, whilst I warily watched) he threw out another legal threat, in effect claiming my thanks were some form of abuse. Wyss 06:18, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

lol. He posted this on my talk page:

another Admin is working with me on the Wiki listserve, so I think you all better revisit this decision rather rapidly.

Oooh I'm trembling! lol FearÉIREANN\ 06:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

What he said leading up to that rather beggars the imagination, too. Wyss 06:33, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Ummmmm......

Jmk56 emailed me about this. He appears to be an expert who is not used to the rough and tumble of Misplaced Pages. I'll update all further on this one - David Gerard 17:46, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

User page vandalism

User:IAAL's user page is being vandalised by anons who are inserting the full name of the Tron hacker. IAAL is currently blocked and so cannot revert his own user page. Regardless of what anyone's opinion is of IAAL or of naming the Tron hacker, his user page should not be modified in a way which is undoubtedly offensive to him. I've already reverted it three times; can I suggest someone else revert again and consider sprotecting the page.-gadfium 05:47, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted and semi'ed it. Dragons flight 06:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks.-gadfium 07:24, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

But no-one bothered to delete the edits that show the full name? WTF. Lapinmies 20:29, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Reason170 blocked

I've blocked Reason170 (talk · contribs) for 24 hours for these two edits ( ) under our Misplaced Pages:No legal threats policy. Talrias (t | e | c) 13:50, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Copperchair

This user has been banned from editing until resolution of the arbitration process, see the temporary injunction Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Admin_enforcement_requested#Temporary_ban_on_Copperchair_editing and is now editing again (in the same way that led to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Copperchair), a couple of days after his last one-month block for the same offense expired. Kusma (討論) 17:44, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I thought he had already been banned from editing until the conclusion of the arbcom case. Jtkiefer ---- 20:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

That's why I am reporting him here, since that ruling says he should be blocked if he edits any page besides his user page. Kusma (討論) 20:30, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Río de la Plata

A renaming poll was held on WP:RM and the consensus was to KEEP. Apparently, some editors didn't agree with the outcome of that poll and decided to reopen it, less than a week after it was finished and without listing in wp:rm. This is a blatant violation of WP rules and will prompt any editor that doesn't like the result to immediately keep reopening discussions until he gets his way. I urge fellow admins to assist in this matter and I plan to oppose the outcome of this pall by whatever means possible, even if it means protecting against moves. I hope it doesn't get that far. Sebastian Kessel 17:50, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but that really does make you sound bad. This poll is listed on WP:RM and has been created because the original one was not done in the most appropriate manner. If the result you want is really the right one then it will be chosen again. It just appears that you are worried that you won't get your way. Also, please can we have this discussion in one place rather than here, on that discussion page and on my own talk page. violet/riga (t) 18:02, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

At the time I wrote this it wasn't. By the way, the initial poll was started by one supporting the "losing side", and it was done in a PERFECT manner. And not, we can't since you seem to try repeating votes until you get your way. Sebastian Kessel 18:43, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm neutral, so I don't have a way. The original poll was not correctly done because there was debate as to which way around it should've been conducted (the move should really have been undone before the WP:RM, with a no-consensus result thus having the opposite result). violet/riga (t) 18:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

It spent a week on wP:RM, strange no "neutral" parties intervened then. Also, weird that you intervened "neturally" at the behest of a non-neutral party AFTER the 1st poll concluded with a result against their desired. Also, a NEUTRAL admin closed that RM with proper procedure. I don't consider you neutral. Sebastian Kessel 18:52, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I've performed hundreds of WP:RM requests, and ALoan knew that - he asked me to take a look and I did. I repeat, the first poll was badly done and I was trying to help out. Reread that sentence, or at least the end of it until you understand WP:AGF. violet/riga (t) 18:55, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Strange that you complain about it being "badly" done... I don't think you would've intervened if the first poll was won by "River Plate" proponents... who DID create that poll. Finally, if you wanted to do a "proper" RM, you should've discussed the options for the naming vote before opening the polls, since some people disagree with the choices that were arbitrarily given. Giving two options for "Rio de la Plata" (with and w/o diac) only confused readers, such as myself, and some may not have realized that they could vote for both. If you solve that problem, I would be more amenable to let the whole issue go and wait until the 2nd poll is over to make further comments regarding this RM. Sebastian Kessel 19:04, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't have intervened - I wouldn't have known about it! I'm sorry that you didn't read the instructions that are really quite clear, and I did even link to the approval voting article for you. violet/riga (t) 19:08, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with violetriga on the need for a new poll (although I disagree with her opinion on the name itself); however, I do not agree that the original poll was "not correctly done" -- rather that it simply became an out-of-control mess. The move request discussion had degnerated into a morass of vitriol and ill-will, with accusations that the one or more earlier moves had been done inappropriately. While there was a majority voting to keep the name at Río de la Plata, that cannot accurately be described as a "consensus". At best, it can be said that there was no consensus to rename the article. But since several had questioned the validity of earlier moves, this all became rather convoluted, to say the least--thus the need for a new poll. BTW, you may not have looked hard enough for the entry on WP:RM, as the entry was added at 13:01, January 21, 2006 UTC, more than three hours before your note above. older ≠ wiser 19:03, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I apologize if it was, but the template in the talk page certainly wasn't there. Having said that, I've seen strange things with wikitime. I don't want my last sentence as an insinuation that that's what happened here, it's not (although I know it sounds like one and I apologize in advance). Sebastian Kessel 19:08, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

You mean this talk page template added 2 minutes after the poll? violet/riga (t) 19:11, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't characterize the discussion as an "out of control mess", but it was certainly going nowhere. That said, the poll itself wasn't conducted in the best manner possible, and I suspect intentionally, so that the losing/initiating side could fall back on the failure as an excuse to look for more hanging chads. As I said on the talk page there, I'm not prepared to question violetriga's neutrality, although I do question whether or not s/he read the discussion thoroughly. I'm not opposed to revoting, as long as the "losing" side (yes, in most cases, it really has degenerated to "sides") agrees to leave the issue rest for at least a year, regardless of which name prevails (and I'm the one who made the move!)... Given the resorting to sockpuppetry of at least one of the "River Plate" proponents, I'm not sure that wish will come true, but... In the future, violetriga, may I just suggest that more prominent notice of the WP:RM entry be given where the discussion is actually taking place, rather than just the template at the top of the article (to which nobody's paying any attention anymore). Also, whoever closes the poll, please summarily archive the talk page...I swear it's the longest single-issue talk page on all of en:WP. Tomer 09:11, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the poll needed to have a more prominent notice - there are plenty of votes there already, and those that have not voted this time but did last time will be notified shortly before the deadline date. As for my neutrality, I really have no interest in the name of some random river I'll never visit and have never heard of before, and am just trying to sort out what was a bad WP:RM situation. violet/riga (t) 12:03, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Sprotect Frances Farmer?

Since blocked user:Jmk56 seems to keep popping up again (this time as user:80.237.152.53) perhaps the easiest thing is to sprotect Frances Farmer for now? Wyss 18:20, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Instantnood, probation, Mainland and Hong Kong Closer Economic Partnership Arrangement

The last two week history on Mainland and Hong Kong Closer Economic Partnership Arrangement is Instantnood reverting another user over and over and over. He has not made any talk page discussion or any other method of resolving his issues. To make it even more petty it is strictly a matter of presentation, not even content.

As Instantnood is under Misplaced Pages:Probation for precisely this kind of revert warring, can I ask an admin to page ban him? SchmuckyTheCat 18:36, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Instantnood, probation, Classified information

Instantnood has similarly engaged in aggresive edit warring with another user over the presentation of HK vis-a-vis China in Classified information since early January, and has only starting making comments in the relevant talk page on 14 January after an uninvolved user took the initiative to begin negotiations. Even as he continue to discuss, however, the edit warring continues, pausing with his last edit on 15 January only because his "opponent" has not returned. Considering the Misplaced Pages:Probation frowns upon destructive behavior particularly in any issue related to China or the HK question, should this also constitute justification for a page ban?--Huaiwei 19:00, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Jadger: userpage attacks

We don't allow user pages to be used to maintain personal attacks against other editors, and I think the user page of User:Jadger qualifies as a personal attack against User:Molobo, User:Space Cadet, User:Lysy and User:Halibutt. Specifically, he lists these editors as amongst those he "hates", and referring to their "utterly stupid" "childish attacks". Moreover, his comments are very close to being anti-Polish slurs: "These are the type of people that allow the Polish stereotypes to continue, by fitting perfectly the stereotype", and quoting Bismarck, apparently with approval given the context, talking about "the destruction of the Poles".

I've asked Jadger if he would consider rewording his page, and he has declined (see User_talk:Jadger#User_page). Should he be required to do so, or is this still in the realm of acceptable criticism? — Matt Crypto 20:30, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I've reinforced your request. He probably belongs in RfC, except RfC is a cesspit and won't do any good anyway. No obvious solution to this problem exists. Kelly Martin (talk) 21:33, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. There is the part of WP:UP that reads, "If the community lets you know that they'd rather you deleted some or other content from your user space, you should probably do so, at least for now - such content is only permitted with the consent of the community...If you do not co-operate, we will eventually simply remove inappropriate content, either by editing the page (if only part of it is inappropriate), or by redirecting it to your main user page (if it is entirely inappropriate)." — Matt Crypto 21:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Boothy443 blocked

I have blocked User:Boothy443 for 24 hours for violation of WP:NPA here. Jtkiefer ---- 21:21, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

His one comment is not enough for a block, although it is borderline. If it was more severe or he was been doing this several times in a few hours, then a block is justified. If he was, then tell me. If you want to re-block instead, I will not block again, but I don't advise it.Voice of All 21:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I strongly feel that it's enough to warrant a block especially since he knows that he can take advantage of attitudes like yours so he can continue his trolling, though I'm not going to reblock since I don't want to get into a wheel war over this and it would just be playing into his hand if we wheel warred over him. I strongly urge a 3rd party admin to reblock him. Jtkiefer ---- 21:51, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Reblocked. Boothy has more than earnt it, and a damn short leash is necessary in his case IMO - David Gerard 01:42, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

If I had my way he would have been perm blocked a long time ago as a troll and a vandal but since many people are too thickheaded to see what he actually is I guess this will have to do. Jtkiefer ---- 03:07, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Jtkiefer, just because people disagree with you about permanent blocks doesn't mean they are "thickheaded" - I find that to be a personal attack against everyone who holds a different opinion. Boothy443 has made a number of good contributions and while his behaviour has by no means been impeccable, especially his votes on RFA pages in the past and the actions he took on his user page in July - which I blocked him for - people who contribute well shouldn't be permanently blocked. They should be watched, certainly, but not prevented from contributing. Talrias (t | e | c) 03:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I had removed my latest comment until you decided to reinsert it and reply to it so I feel no duty to respond to your criticisms of it. Jtkiefer ---- 03:33, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Uh, what? All I did was reply to your comment. Talrias (t | e | c) 03:35, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Check the page history. I removed the comment before you replied to it specifically because I realized that people would probably interpret it as a personal attack. Jtkiefer ---- 03:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, I just replied and hit save page. Talrias (t | e | c) 03:42, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

It was a bad idea for Voice of All to undo the block without discussion. That is seldom helpfu. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 03:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily a bad idea in principle but it was a bad idea that he reversed the block as the first thing after I posted notice of the block before anyone else could even comment, that seems to show disrespect towards my decision to block because it's pretty much saying I don't want to hear what other people think about the block I'm just going to reverse it and people can comment on it later. Jtkiefer ---- 03:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Bad idea in principle. :) Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 05:14, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Leave Boothy blocked, and consider blocking wheel-warring admins in the future. This is getting seriously out of hand. --Ryan Delaney 03:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Who the heck is wheel-warring? I said "If you want to re-block instead, I will not block again, but I don't advise it". So obviously nobody was going to wheelwar. I must point out that "Don't be dick" is the most childish idiotic, ad hominem, "policy" to site, and it is oxymoronic. When I said that Boothy may have trolled, people attacked me like I was evil, no everyone can casually say it know, even though little has changed. I don't like it when one personal attack to an implied personal attack gets someone blocked, maybe if it is like "FUCK YOU, I"M GONNA KILL YOU", then fine, but Boothy was more argumentative than insulting...If other admins want to block then fine, as I said, I am not going to wheelwar. I really think that Boothy needs to go to arbcom instead, to finally resolve this issue. Also, indefinitely blocking someone who still contributes by one admin is bad for Misplaced Pages, IMO.Voice of All 19:30, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

It was a 24 hour block, not an indefinite block. --Ryan Delaney 20:21, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

"If I had my way he would have been perm blocked a long time ago as a troll".Voice of All 21:14, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

The point Oleg was trying to make, and I fully agree is that you shouldn't have undone another admin's action without discussing first. That is exactly what starts wheel wars and keeps them going. Unless an admin action was clearly wrong, leave it alone and discuss. If most people feel it was wrong then it will be quick and easy to get agreement to overturn it. But undoing an admin's action just because you wouldn't have done it is the problem. I don't understan why it is so hard for the people that start wheel wars to understand this. - Taxman 14:59, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

People, please remember WP:AGF. VofA, JTK could've had his way and perm-block and didn't. OTOH, people may have come on to you way too hard, and I also understand your position. Just an outside view. Sebastian Kessel 15:53, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

No he couldn't have. Other admins undid his infinite block and the few others that tried to reistate it. If he wheelwarred it would have gone to arbcom. So he had to let boothy be unblocked, as other admins disagreed with unilaterial indefinte blocks of actual contributors (not vandals).Voice of All 15:57, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

GoldenBoy1

user:GoldenBoy1 has shown up at Frances Farmer saying he's a relative of hers. Possible sock of blocked user user:Jmk56. A temporary sprotect of the article may be the thing to do for now. Wyss 21:44, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

• Now I'm sure user:GoldenBoy1 is blocked user user:Jmk56, who has been blocked 5 times in the past day or so for various legal threats, impersonations and anon IP abuses. Wyss 21:55, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

• His behaviour seems ok for now. I've asked him for specific cites on the stuff I'm having trouble verifying on my own. Wyss 23:01, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

• I have sprotected the page. User:Zoe| 20:07, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

JAIS (Just Another Iasson Sockpuppet: Mpikso

I've indefinitely blocked Mpikso (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) as another Iasson sockpuppet, and reverted all of his edits (regardless of quality), with the exception of this helpful edit of updating Iasson's ban time. He's laughing at us. I wish we could do something proactive instead of just banning his sockpuppets. --Deathphoenix 22:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

86.10.231.219

Attacks on Talk:Mumps. Tedious. Probably something to do with Ombudsman by the pattern of other interventions by htat IP address. I'm unonvinced there is a meritorious one among them. Midgley 23:33, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I second this. A close look at Talk:Mumps and several other edits by 86.10.231.219 (talk · contribs) will reveal a series of personal attacks, clear deliberate POV editing and possibly a reincarnation of abusive troll 81.111.172.198 (talk · contribs) (who also edited mumps and got block for trying to publish personal details of myself on Misplaced Pages). JFW | T@lk 08:18, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

86.10.231.219 on Epidemiology This now seems to be a series of attacks on me, suggesting that as a BMA member I can't be trusted on medica matters (which is, I'd say, a somewhat unusual argument in the world) and mixed less than usefully with efforts to turn multiple pages into rehashes of a single very little accepted argument on immunisation.

Could he be blocked please.Midgley 16:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I would be thrilled to block this troll myself, but I'm involved and hence will not. Could any other admin please have a look? JFW | T@lk 18:43, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

70.182.219.158 | talk | contributions

After looking in at a dispute over whether NAMBLA should be categorized with gay organizations, this anonymous user proceeded to initiate a compaign of harassment and defemation (recorded in detail at a previous RFC that did little good) against users whose opinions differed from his or her own. By referring to the RFC pages, you will see that this user has for just about a month now made libelous accusations (accusing users of molesting children and downloading child pornography), vandalized articles, vandalized talk pages, obstructed dispute resolution, and been an all-around menace to Misplaced Pages. To top things off, the user has shown no remorse or capacity to understand the problems with his or her actions, which portends further violations. Despite being blocked four or so times in the past month, this user continues to vandalize user pages and to revert improvements made to other articles by people this user has targeted for harassment (see , , , . Further action seems to be necessary to prevent further abuse of and disruption to Misplaced Pages. Corax 00:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

USC Trojans football

I put a hard block on this article. there is a continued edit war going on. i encourage the users involved to discuss their POVs in the talk page. Kingturtle 01:57, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I replaced the {{block}} template with the {{protected}} template, which seems to be more appropriate. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 02:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

And I added it to Misplaced Pages:Protected page also. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 02:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

This isn't really the place for protections unless they are controversial. PP is the place to record them, not here. --Woohookitty 06:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Indefinite block

I have indefinitely blocked NONCENSORED_Popeye (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). The user is a self-proclaimed Gay Nigger Association of America troll who has no useful contributions that I could find. --Ryan Delaney 03:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Good riddance to bad GNAA rubbish. Jtkiefer ---- 04:43, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Could you explain why you banned him? Being a member of GNAA isn't a bannable offense. At first glance nothing obviously comes to mind - plenty of his edits haven't been reverted. Secretlondon 09:40, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Check User talk:Timecop - these fuckwits are playing up again big time, particularly as we've started shooting their unusually obnoxious trolling userpage boxes - David Gerard 14:56, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

In particular, have a look at the deleted templates User:Timecop/JEWSDIDWTC-2, User:Timecop/JEWSDIDWTC-1, User:Timecop/JEWSDIDWTC-0, User:Timecop/JEWSDIDWTC-4 for what I mean - David Gerard 16:08, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Nice comment on mad POV userboxes, were they used anywhere as they seem to be in someone's userspace. (I'm not suggesting that they were suitable for an encyclopedia before someone asks) Secretlondon 10:24, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Adding pictures of feces to people's userpages is model behavior ? (take my word for it, you might not want to click that link). --W.marsh 16:11, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Well that's an article and it does fit - although it may be shocking for some people. I didn't suggest "model behaviour", I was questiioning life block. Secretlondon 10:24, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

If you like, you can go discuss it with him on his talk page, because it looks like he has something to say about this block . --Ryan Delaney 20:24, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

OpenInfo on Messianic Judaism

I'm having what I consider to be a sever problem on Messianic Judaism with user User:OpenInfo.

By way of background, almost all Jews consider Messianic Judaism (a form of Judaism which honors Jesus as the Messiah) to be a contradiction in terms. The article has a long history of being heavily slanted against the practice of MJ, and has often had statement of dubious truth value.

OpenInfo, however, has crossed some lines. He engaged in hate speech on my user page User_talk:NathanZook in response to an erroneous post I made on his talk page User_talk:OpenInfo. This I ignored, although others did not. He appears to have revereted the MJ talk page. And he has stated that one organization, which I specifically disavowed, has been given "millions and billions of dollars..." AFAIC, he has demonstrated that he is a conspiracy "nut". I know of no way to reason with such an individual.

NathanZook 05:50, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

User Okasha links

Can someone keep an eye on the user Okasha, who is adding links to a Chinese version of the Quran all over the place, in addition to copy and pasting from an article about Jesus in Islam. It may need some admin power, as all my messages so far have been ignored. Thanks. --Jgritz 07:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry at WP:AGF

Some vandal is in the process of revert warring at WP:AGF, regarding the use of a nonsensical image to represent good faith. Even though dozens of editors have reverted the image away, the sockpuppets continue to re-add it until the page is semi-protected. Can we get a checkuser to identify and block the sockpuppets?

Also, it might be a good idea to run checkuser on Cool Cat, seeing as he had the image in question created at his request, and engaged in a revert war a few weeks before all the socks started. Hexagonal 07:10, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

This is Hexagonal's 42nd edit, and Cool Cat is a trusted user. For Hexagonal (talk · contribs) to dive straight into Misplaced Pages: is more of a sign than not that he himself is a sockpuppet. NSLE _(T+C) 07:28, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Addendum: Looking at Hexagonal's talk page, this user may have been stalking Cool Cat, thus his edits straight into the project space. Also harassing Cool Cat as seen from his talk page, who's asked him to stop. ("Excuse me can you please leave me alone? I do not know what your problem is and I frankly do not care. GO AWAY!") NSLE _(T+C) 07:30, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

WP:AGF. And checkuser them both, though I doubt hat Cool Cat is behind this, he's been impersonated lots of times - looks more like someone is trying to frame him. But we should make sure. -- grm_wnr Esc 07:35, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I also doubt Cool Cat is behind this, but I do believe a single individual is behind the repeated vandalism at WP:AGF (be it Cool Cat as alleged, or someone attempting to make him look bad). At least ten sock puppets have been blocked so far.. —Locke Cole • t • c 07:48, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• Agreed. Run checkuser on both parties just to be on the safe side. - Mailer Diablo 07:52, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Who do you think I am... a vandal? I have freaking beter things to do than vandalise wikipedia. This is like suspecting Jimbo for vandalism and I spend hour after hour RC patroling for wikipedia... Pathetic... Hear User:NSLE a bit wont ya? --Cool Cat 17:03, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Lets look at the issue here, without any specific names:

1. User A asks for an image to be created. 2. User A inserts said image into a policy page, without consensus. 3. User A engages in edit warring to keep said image in article. 4. Sockpuppets make identical edits to page, as done by User A. (there were no other supporters of this image)

This is a situation for checkuser. If the socks can be shown to be coming from the same IP as Cool Cat, the issue can then be brought before the arbcom with evidence. If the socks can be shown to be coming from another contributor's IP, then that contributor can be reprimanded for impersonating and framing Cool Cat. If the socks can be shown to be coming from an open proxy, then that proxy can be blocked and any sleeper accounts ferreted out.

Making an issue out of who I am only detracts from vandal fighting efforts. If I were Cool Cat, I would be asking for the checkuser to be run too, so that any socks can be found and linked to someone else. I don't know why he fought the checkuser request the last time the sockpuppets attacked the article, but I do find that suspicious. There is no way I'd approach Cool Cat otherwise, because he has a history of harassment and childish behavior leading up to an arbcom decision against him. Thus, I chose to use a non-disruptive role account, which is NOT prohibited by policy. Sorry, but I don't need one more person harassing me, I already get enough standing up against a systematic homophobic bias in other articles. Hexagonal 08:09, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Either way, something about that image gives me the weepy creeps (never mind it's not nearly simple and stark enough for a logo icon). Wyss 09:31, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

It looks Christian, though I'm not sure why. It may be the halo type things. Secretlondon 09:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh nah its really ambigious. Very loosly based on Image:Goddess Relief Office.gif. One of the greatest mistakes I made was suggesting the introduction of that image to AGF. I was only trying to add an abstract art representing AGF, but everything I sugest must be bad... My idea was that people would assume good faith and welmcome the image which has no malicious intention. For that I have to deal with stuff like this. --Cool Cat 22:06, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

In anycase. I feel it is likely Hexagonal and all those sockpuppets are MARMOT's creation. Furthermore Checkuser maybe inconclusive as MARMOT abused a wikimedia vunrability (User:Brion VIBBER/Cool Cat incident report) allowing him to appear like any ip he wishes. Any evidence prior to the fix of the bug may be disgarded if it is indeed incrimnating me.

I have not used a single sockpuppet to revert on that page. The level of impersonation I deal with is rather ridiclous, I do not care if anyone is believing me or not as I am feeling quite down already.

In adition the users (Hexagonal (talk · contribs)) contribution must be reviewed. User is on a holy cause against the image or something like that. Users entier contribution was a campaign against the image. He tagged it speedy 3 times. See:

I find it striking that a new user with very few edits campaigning against me or at least attempting. Also same time MARMOT was harrasing me on IRC. Also striking is how a user with less than 50 edits with majority of his contribution to the "project" namespace. See: --Cool Cat 21:46, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Several possible sockpuppets

Users Mrbelvedereposter21, 20, 19, 18, 17 and 16 were all created within a couple of minutes, and earlier accounts (Mrbelvedereposter12 for instance) have been blocked for being sockpuppets. smurrayinchester 09:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

It looks like they've already been blocked. Sorry. smurrayinchester 09:52, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Adding admins to WP:AIV

Several accounts have taken to adding current admins to WP:AIV, mostly User:Doc glasgow, they also have vandalised by removing a section of the WP:AN/I archive. First 64.191.78.165 (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) who was warned, then Woemyres (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log), next Jaxxred (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) and now Jundip (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log), I've blocked them all indefinitely however the edit of User:Jundip post dates the other blocks, so they maybe using proxies or dynamic IPs. (Just seen: EdinburghLazza (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) and Granum1 (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) --pgk 12:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

It's running rampant there right now. I'm so close to semi-protecting it. Sadly. --LBMixPro 13:30, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I've semi-protected, and blocked a few of the accounts. SlimVirgin 13:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Though they've found an older account A1x (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) to use. --pgk 13:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I thought it meant the protection hadn't worked. ;-) I've blocked that account too. SlimVirgin 13:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Interesting to note that the section being removed from the archive is also a section that the older account was a participant in tying to avoid getting the issue reported to the university where it was originating from. Given that it was a UK based univeristy, yet the IP in the list above appears to be North American there might be some proxies being used (or the other way around the original might have been through a security flaw and really originated from NA) --pgk 13:52, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Outrageous harassment of Bumpusmills1 continues

Yet more threats against User:Bumpusmills1 and his family posted, by User:Deathmills1, an account obviously created for the purpose. This is double-take stuff, far beyond what we usually discuss on this page. Is there really nothing we can do? Bishonen | talk 15:04, 22 January 2006 (UTC).

Update: Bumpusmills1 gone. :-(

As I type, I just now see Bumpusmills1's response: he's gone, it seems. :-( Bishonen | talk 15:03, 22 January 2006 (UTC).

Bumpusmills1 has been guilty of some inappropriate POV-pushing, but I agree that such threats are always completely un-called-for. *Dan T.* 15:29, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Not just POV-pushing, but pure harassment, cyber-stalking, and vandalism. I was on the recieving end of it as was pointed out once before on this board. Even though Bumpusmills1 isn't innocent, these threats are abhorrent. --BWD 18:59, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Hisroyalhighness_721 and User:213.130.122.51

These two users seem to be the same user. If you look at their contributions (12), they are all juvenille attempts to hurt what seems to be a school classmate. The user has vandalized many articles over many months. The user has been warned. I consider Hisroyalhighness_721 and 213.130.122.51 to be the same user due to having the same target and using the same article (Qatar).

I suggest a temporary block. It seems like a middle schooler who needs to learn that people pay attention and Misplaced Pages isn't the forum for insulting a peer. --Matt 16:10, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, but they haven't posted since your last warning. I'll keep an eye out and block at the next inappropriate edit. Though my gut feeling is that they're most likely cheerfully abusing away from a different sock account by now... Somebody remind me again why we ever bother to block anybody? Bishonen | talk 18:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC).

Update: User:Hisroyalhighness 721 hasn't stirred since the warning, in fact from beginning to end he has only done two edits. User:213.130.122.51 has done a silly edit to Wassily Kandinsky but reverted her/himself eight minutes later. That's all, so there's not a blocking situation so far. Bishonen | talk 21:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC).

More vandalism, this time to Brad Pitt's article. Weird pattern though. --Matt 07:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Blocked user Jmk56 is back

I'm being trolled (and in effect, threatened) again by blocked user:Jmk56, here, from what I suppose is an AOL IP, user:207.200.116.138. Wyss 16:29, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• I think maybe you should step back from Frances Farmer for a day or two - it looks to me like there has been at least one massive misunderstanding here; I'm not sure on whose part, but the world won't stop if poor Ms Farmer's article sits in a state you don't like until the misunderstanding is cleared up. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 19:00, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
  • From what I've seen, the misunderstanding is entirely Jmk56's. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 22:54, 22 January 2006 (UTC) Struck out as it's more complicated than that. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 01:54, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
    • I've started talking to Jmk56 in email; I'll see if I can clear anything up. In the meantime, it's probably better to let things rest a little; I believe the Frances Farmer article is now in fact in a reasonable state from all participants' perspective. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 00:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
      • There's a conversation going on on my talk page if anyone wants to stick their nose in. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 01:34, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Baphin and User:JohN

They are making repeated bad-faith edits regarding content dispute on List of Freemasons. Baphjin is adding Turkish Freemasnos that cannot be verified. The only source is in Turkish, and thus creates a problem with WP:Verifiability. I explained ot him on his talk page that all he needed ot do was add a cite to the page, and hiss response was repeated personal attack.

I warned User:JohN about disputed edits he made on List of Freemasons, and he obfuscated an edit here by atating he removed thwe word "president", but he also added two men whose membership is unproven, with no citation. He then accused me of warning him unfairly on his user page, which I explained.

There is a distinct possibility that these users are sock pupeets of User:Lightbringer or other sock or meat puppets of his, given their fixation on a very minor item in a Freemasonry related article and their response to the more than fair attitude exhibited by myself in regards to explaining how to fix the edits. However, rather than follow posted policy or find the citations, they would rather argue publically, which tells me, at least, that they have no interestin fact, rather only their agenda. IMHO, it's vandalism, but there's no precedent or template to warn on it, so I have no other course of action until they violate 3RR, which I am sure they will avoid. MSJapan 18:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Note: Baphin is clearly gaming the 3RR, which legitimate new users don't do. MSJapan 21:59, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Gmaxwell

(Copied from WP:AN/3RR, because there were edits that amounted to vandalism, as well as excessive reverting)

He has reverted Template:User freedom seven times despite repeated calls to stop from multiple editors. The version he is reverting to is far different from what the creators and users intended it for. I consider these edits to be an act of vandalism.--God of War 05:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• 1.
• 2.
• 3.
• 4.
• 5.
• 6.
• 7.
• 8.

• 05:38, January 22, 2006 Sean Black blocked "User:Gmaxwell" with an expiry time of 3 hours (Lots of reverts at Template:User freedom-needs to cool off) Jtkiefer ---- 05:45, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Note that I have protected the template. The then-standing version was Gmaxwell's, on which I protected without endorsement. However, since Gmaxwell is blocked, some other admin may wish to revert to before the whole 22nd Jan silliness. -Splash 05:54, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I've reverted to the version from before the vandalism, and added noinclude tags to fix it on userpages. Mark 12:16, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Looking over this page, it appears that a 3 hours block is slightly on the short side for edit warring? Noting of course, that we usually unblock if the person agrees to quit the behavior anyway. - brenneman 06:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
      • Yes it is on the short side but you have to remember that blocks are not meant to be punitive. Jtkiefer ---- 06:05, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
        • I think you'll find that I am in fact the person who added that into the blocking policy. I do not see anything on either User talk:Gmaxwell or User talk:Sean Black that indicates that any discussion took place where Greg indicated that he would lay off. If we keep giving shorter blocks to cabal members (Tony Sidaway, Snowspinner, and now Gmaxwell) we should at least be honest and edit blocking policy to say "24 hours if for the little people". These are guys we should hold to a higher standard than normal. Giving them a slap on the wrist when they violate one of the siplest and most straight-forward policy we've got is very poor form. - brenneman 12:00, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
          • I'm also surprised by the length of the block, because he was engaged in vandalism, not just edit warring. I'd block him myself but I was involved in a dispute with him over an image recently. Three examples of the edits I see as vandalism: he changed a box supporting the American military to one supporting the Iraqi insurgents. He inserted an image of a woman "hogtied" and gagged into a box opposing fox hunting, and changed the fox hunting link to BDSM. On Template:Wikiproject Terrorism, he replaced the image of a terrorist with one of a nuclear explosion. SlimVirgin 12:22, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

(start comments not pasted from 3rr)

• The last one I'd leave off the list as just bad taste. - brenneman 13:40, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

This is not a 3RR or vandalism, although its fair to say it is disruptive. It is however incredibly notable that Misplaced Pages policy in no way implies freedom of speech, and that Jimbo has left us all a polite message exhorting us to keep our political views off the project, as keeping them on the project may cause it harm. Any of you who think good faith is an adequate reason not to block someone should take note.--Tznkai 17:34, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

If I can chime in here- Greg was upset. He needed to calm down, and I thought he would be able to do so after 3 hours. I was evidently wrong (see the header below), but I did what I thought was best.--Sean|Black 07:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

You did just fine. 3 hours stops the current problem and is probably long enough to give time to discuss the need to extend it. - Taxman 15:18, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Gmaxwell and copyright notices

Alert to all admins. Gmaxwell is going around to every user page that displays any kind of thumbnail or flag from Misplaced Pages Commons and declaring them "copyright violation". He is then blanking the user page and putting up a copyright violation notice. Is there any justification for this? It seems to me there should be nothing wrong with displaying a picture on a user page so long as the picture itself is not a copyright violation. -Husnock 18:54, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I reverted Gmaxwell's blanking of User:Karol Langner, which did not even have any fair use images on it. I don't understand the rationale here.--Alhutch 19:09, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I recall that there's an official policy somewheres (I think at WP:FU) that says fair-use images are not to be used in the user: namespace. Mackensen (talk) 19:11, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

This is the policy from WP:FU: "Fair use images should only be used in the article namespace. Used outside article space, they are often enough not covered under the fair use doctrine. They should never be used on templates (including stub templates and navigation boxes) or on user pages. They should be linked, not inlined, from talk pages when they are the topic of discussion. This is because it is the policy of the Wikimedia Foundation to allow an unfree image only if no free alternative exists and only if it significantly improves the article it is included on. All other uses, even if legal under the fair use clauses of copyright law, should be avoided to keep the use of unfree images to a minimum. Exceptions can be made on a case-by-case basis if there is a broad consensus that doing so is necessary to the goal of creating a 💕 (like the templates used as part of the Main Page)."--Alhutch 19:15, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

(After edit conflict)
Yes, I inadvertently fell foul of that a while ago. On that occasion, though, the person who alerted me merely removed the image and left me a polite note in explanation. Gmaxwell has for some time been behaving very oddly and aggressively with regard to image violations (real or occasionally imagined). Here, he's misapplying a rule about fair-use images to the use of public-domain images, and doing so in a heavy-handed manner. Judging by the comments on his Talk page, he's heading for an RfC. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 19:21, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

The heavy-handedness is totally unncecessary. I agree with Mel Etitis, all you have to do is be polite and notify people if they have done something wrong, not go around unilaterally blanking people's user pages.--Alhutch 19:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I've spoken to him several times about his aggression, since a dispute I had with him recently about an image (in which he called me "hysterical" and accused me of vandalism because I dared to revert his removal of it). What with this today and his behavior last night (see above), I'm unsure of the best way is to proceed, but something needs to happen. SlimVirgin 19:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

His behaviour is outrageous. Firstly, where fairuse images are wrongly on user pages it is invariably due to a misunderstanding, not an attempt to break the law. All he had to do was leave a message, not post a massive notice all but accusing the user of being a lawbreaker. Secondly, he is not removing the offending image, but all images, even those that can be displayed. Thirdly, blanking a user's page is grossly disrespectful to other users. Frankly, he is out of control at this stage. This bullying behavour of his has to stop. FearÉIREANN\ 19:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I am confused, the original poster (Husnock) says Gmaxwell is declaring user pages using Misplaced Pages Commons images copyvios, surely Husnock meant fair use images rather than Commons? The commons doesnt accept fair use images and Misplaced Pages Commons images can be used freely. Martin 19:53, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I move that all his edits be reverted and considered petty vandalism, and that the said user be blocked for a period of one week. We don't have time to entertain him or his dubious edits. εγκυκλοπαίδεια* 19:57, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, his contribs list is beyond the pale. It's vandalism, pretty clearly. You just need to remove the image and leave a talk page message, and you don't need to blank others' userpages. It's behaviour I'd expect from an editor on a rampage, which, frankly, Gmaxwell is. Note in particular User:Carnildo/Unusual Files, which is merely a list of links to images, and contains no images at all. Evidently, Gmaxwell has blindly been applying his new policy without any thought. I've reverted all his edits (yes, with rollback), and yes, I know that exposes fair use images in userspace. Gmaxwell can jolly well go and remove them as appropriate by hand+talk page if he's that concerned about it. Further, he's been doing ridiculous things with userboxes very recently, and calling people assholes. He's now taking a 24 hour Wikibreak to reconsider his general behaviour. -Splash 20:00, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this course of action, as Gmaxwell definitely needs to cool down.--Alhutch 20:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Splash, but I'd have given him 72 hours at least. :-) εγκυκλοπαίδεια* 20:03, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Start out with short blocks to get the message across and to have the block be remedial (now he can't continue his various crusades for a little while) rather than punitive. Imo, anyway. -Splash 20:09, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

The speed, systematic and indescriminate way this is being approached (Special:Contributions/Gmaxwell) really suggests to me that he is using at least a precompiled list, if not a bot, to do this. While it is in the interest of existing policy, the handling is clearly unnecessarily rough. Dragons flight 20:05, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

It is probably something like User:Gmaxwell/user fairuse. Do note the blind manner in which he has been carrying this out, as per the example in my previous post. -Splash 20:09, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I note the fact that they all have identical edit summarries and content, are all marked as minor (the pywikipedia default) and are occurring at 30-60 second intervals (the pywikipedia default throttle). Also Gmaxwell is responsible for the Roomba bot. I am prepared to assert with near certainty that these edits were made by a pywikipedia bot. Dragons flight 20:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

He blanked User:Karol Langner, which has an image which is not fair use, but rather public domain needing a tag update.--Alhutch 20:11, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Hey DF, long time no see! εγκυκλοπαίδεια* 20:06, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Some of these edits seem a little odd. I see clear evidence of good faith efforts made by the blocking administrator and others to raise these edits with the user on his talk page, but no response.

In particular I thought the blanking of User:Carnildo/Unusual Files looked odd because at first sight it contained no inlines. However on investigating I discovered that it contained "Image" links with no preceding colon--it's possible that Greg is interpreting these as inlines, although in practise the ogg files in question are presented as links. I interpret this as a good faith error, or at least an alternative interpretation of a borderline case, by Gmaxwell.

On the blanking of the fair use pages, I think that's a very laudable objective, but the lack of interaction here is worrying. If one performs a lot of quite provocative edits--even if as here they're clearly reasonable and defensible, it's important to be responsive and available to discuss and defend them and to help repair damage caused by errors. Notices on talk pages explaining the issue and asking for the user in question to remove disputed fair use material would have been wise; I am looking but as yet see no evidence that this mass blanking was preceded by such efforts.

I want to stress again that I regard the objective here as laudable, and I'm certain that "fair use" claims on inline uses of image file on user pages will one pretty soon become a thing of the past on Misplaced Pages; the legal exposure to the site is too great to ignore for long. This was not the way to advance towards that objective, however. The block was necessary to stop the user continuing his ongoing actions without discussion. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 20:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Note: User:Majorityrule is going around doing the same thing now. 68.39.174.238 21:07, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Blocked --pgk 21:09, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Would it not be much more sensible to post a templated message on user's talk pages notifying them that they have fair use images on their user pages which they should remove? Arniep 21:13, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

it certainly would.--Alhutch 21:18, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to just address the fellow in English instead of templatese? This might promote a dialog in which the user could be educated about the liability issue with respect to use of images to which there is no free licence. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 21:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

In the past when Greg has left notes he has been very confrontational, which causes the situation to flare up. In his case, using a template would be a good idea. SlimVirgin 21:42, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

On the evidence, it seems that Majorityrule was a sockpuppet of Gmaxwell. I have extended Maxwell's block to one week. Given his behaviour, if they are an admin perhaps a move should be made to have them desysoped. FearÉIREANN\ 21:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Wow! Look what I started! As to my own userpage, are flags a violation of these strange rules and regulations? Displaying a country or city flag on a user page should not be a problem, but some of the flag images come up as fair use. As far as the original user blanking all these pages, it is vandalism as far as I'm concerned. Not the right way to do it. Back to the flags, if there is a problem with displaying them on user pages then we have an even bigger problem since hundreds of user pages probbaly display a flag or two. -Husnock 21:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

The flag image issues is explained in detail at User_talk:Husnock#Flag_images_question. Brief version: the flags were tagged as a PD template, which I moved in late 2005 to one that makes flag images fair use/maybe PD. User:Zscout370 14:49, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

What evidence is there that this was a sock of Gmaxwell? How sure are you that an extension of the Gmaxwell block is justified? --Tony Sidaway|Talk 21:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

He isn't an admin and supeficially performing exactly the same set of edits does suggest a sock puppet (my initial reaction), though of course it's possible that it is someone up to mischief. --pgk 21:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the original block is justified but the extension is not, I am going to reduce back to the original block time. Jtkiefer ---- 21:39, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Both Маjоrіtуrulе (talk · contribs) (cyrillic letter substitutes) and Minorityrule (talk · contribs) were recently created and blocked before editting on the presumption of being additional sockpuppets. Dragons flight 22:01, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Checkuser says: These appear not to be Gmaxwell at all, but a troll stirring up shit. They also created FіrеFох (talk · contribs) and Vаndаlbоt (talk · contribs) (both Cyrillic substitutions) and previously used Misplaced Pages is not evil. (talk · contribs) - all impersonation or near enough. Majorityrule (talk · contribs) is Greg, however. This appears to be Greg wanting to go out with a bang because he's sick of Misplaced Pages. Argh. - David Gerard 22:24, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Well that proves me right then in my choice to reduce the block back to original length. It's also a very bad idea to block for sockpuppetry without checking into whether they're actual sockpuppets or not. Jtkiefer ---- 22:57, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not enitrely sure it does, reread "Majorityrule (talk · contribs) is Greg", that's the one which caused the block extension. --pgk 23:16, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

That proves that Gmaxwell did engage in sockpuppetry which means it was right to extend the block.--Alhutch 00:05, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Greg obviously wants an indefinite block and I'm in favor of denying it. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 01:04, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

It should be noted, blocks on Greg have very high collateral damage. Specifically, they block Mindspillage. Phil Sandifer 07:25, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Not a big worry. If Mindspillage needs the editing priveleges returned every time Gmaxwell decides to be a jerk, she can always unblock the autoblocked IP. Sjakkalle (Check!) 15:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Something positive

There's a lot of angry guys around, and talk of an RfC on Greg's talk page. I'm afraid to look at the RfC page, because I might see that it already exists, but surely that's the last thing that this situation calls for? There are a two possibilities: This user intends to return, or is trying to "go out with a bang".

If it's the second, we should save ourselves the time and energy of a pointless and almost certainly damaging RfC where lots of people would probably say regrettable things. If it's the first and they've just gone nuts, surely something more along the lines of an intervention would be a better way to return him to the fold? Has anyone been able to just chat to him?

brenneman 00:03, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that talk of an RfC has been overtaken by events. He obviously wanted out and required some assistance in making the break. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 01:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Recent discussion on his talk page suggests that he doesn't want to leave after all. -- grm_wnr Esc 06:54, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I strongly agree with brenneman's conclusions. Although I think Greg was very much out of line here, there's been enough of a pile-on regarding that. Greg should be given time to cool off, and any blocks (if they prove to be necessary) should be preventive, not punitive. Let's give him time to cool off. I don't think he's recovered from the Roomba image problem of last month, which appeared to upset him considerably. Johnleemk | Talk 01:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Recent statements on User:Gmaxwell's talk page

All that being said, I'm still concerned about the edits he's making to his user page. If any other user said words to the effect of "you want to see damage to the encyclopedia, I can show you damage," we wouldnt be holding back. I ask again, is there anyone who's had a (real-time) chat with him? - brenneman 06:59, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Greg still has his tool server account, he's still a talented developer with a fairly good knowledge about how the site works, and he states quite honestly that if he truly had evil intent he could do a lot more damage than a few silly page blankings. I don't think there's serious cause for concern in the circumstances. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 07:24, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

We don't, under normal circumstances, care if a person can actually follow through on their threats to "DESTORY WIKIP{EDIA!1!!", we care about the mindset behind those threats. My concern is for the future of an editor who had apparently made large contributions, when he'll regain his composure, and how much damage he's doing to himself as a Wikipedian in the meantime. - brenneman 07:30, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any evidence of malice here. He sounds bitter and disillusioned but really that is very well founded. As he sees it, some Misplaced Pages editors are jeopardising Misplaced Pages for reasons of selfishness and ignorance and his reasonable, patient attempts to protect the Foundation have been rebutted by people whose support he expected. Some of us are very buoyant and thickskinned, and that kind of nonsense is like so much water off a duck's back, while some of us are easily hurt and may sometimes overreact. Greg is of the latter persuaion. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 18:45, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. He's not known for making "reasonable, patient attempts to protect the Foundation," unfortunately, but for acts of aggression that have led other users to leave the project. I'm concerned that, in his most recent statements, he has announced his intention to continue being disruptive, and has said he'll evade any blocks that are applied. That's a direct threat to the project, not an attempt to protect it. SlimVirgin 18:52, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I feel the block on Gmaxwell ought to be extended so that he has a chance to reflect on whether he's able to edit within our policies. His behavior is frequently disruptive; this is far from being the first example of it. After being blocked yesterday for three hours for what was arguably vandalism, then for 24 hours for mass blanking of user pages and unapproved use of a bot, he carried on blanking pages using a sock puppet, User:Majorityrule, which check user confirmed was him. He frequently makes mistakes (e.g. wanting to delete supposedly orphaned images that are in fact being used in articles) leading to lots of time-consuming arguments during which he is very rude, with users having to undo his work, and people even leaving the project because of him. He also deletes posts from his talk page so that it's hard to keep track of all the disputes he's causing (says he's archiving, but then doesn't).

Today he seemed to indicate he has no intention of following our policies:

• "Like I give a crap about being blocked, it doesn't even inhibit me from editing."
• "Man. You think I've stopped because I'm blocked? Please! Blocking doesn't actually stop anyone but twits!"
• "You're still wrong about me being blocked accomplishing *anything*, since I can still edit whenever I please... in fact, being blocked gives me far less incentive to be nice about it, in so far as there can be far less than nearly none at all."
• "I feel great because I can still do what I want, and I don't have to worry what rude jerks think about me ... I can continue to do whatever I think is right without the burden of explaining myself to a shreaking mass of people."

That's not even to mention the personal attacks. Users are frequently blocked for long periods for less than this. I think we need to show some consistency. SlimVirgin 19:42, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Exactly! After this latest episode everyone should know now that claiming "fair use" for copyrighted images on one's userpage is against Foundation policy and increases the legal exposure of the project. So block everyone who restored their pictures or won't take them down. Pilatus 21:34, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Those comments are very troubling. Anyone else making them would likely be facing a substantial block for that alone. There's only so much goodwill the community affords each of us, and GMaxwell was using up his prodigiously prior to making these comments. I'm concerned about someone making comments like that and still having access to the tool server. FeloniousMonk 22:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately if we block Gmaxwell, a side-effect is that Mindspillage is also prevented from contributing. What do people suggest? Talrias (t | e | c) 22:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

No, that's not correct. We can do a user-account block without blocking the IP address (block the account, then unblock the IP). SlimVirgin 03:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

kinda. You could block the account but not the internet, but then he might just come back as a sockpuppet so yeah (although there's a possiblity that he might not do that also arguably you'd be better off knowing who is actually him) =| --Mistress Selina Kyle 23:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Wow. That's... awkward. android79 22:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

The comments by Gmaxwell show disrespect to the project and its participants ("rude jerks"). Gmaxwell's actions appear to have been disruptive and rude. This is seriously inappropriate behavior, and deserves a strong response from the community. -Will Beback 23:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Ignoring the strong reek of double standards emanating from some contributors here, it's odd that anyone should hesitate at the notion that Gmaxwell be blocked for any other than practical reasons, given the pile of evidence against him. Those reasons are also fairly minor, though, surely; just about anyone could edit through sockpuppets, and some do — our response isn't to agonise over whether blocking is a good idea, but to block the sockpuppets as and when they appear. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:55, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Mel. Moreover, many WP policies are intended to protect the project from disruption. Editors feel insecure and unsure how to respond to problems when these policies aren't followed evenly (never mind they aren't, and would go far in stabilizing things around here if they were). Wyss 00:12, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

If I could make a comment here -- It seems to me that Gmaxwell's head has gotten extremely big. It's extremely frustrating to see him make so many rude comments and vandalous edits without reproach. "Double standard" is exactly what comes to mind. Anyone else who would've acted as he has would've been dealt with much more vigorously. As an administrator-hopeful, I find it absolutely disgraceful that someone such as Gmaxwell has been permitted to continue on as he has. Wikipedians agree to edit by consensus, and with his recent actions, he seems to think he is above policy. ~MDD4696 01:30, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Possible response to User:Gmaxwell

Greg is obviously hurt and angry, and blocking him further now will deepen any feelings he has that Misplaced Pages has "turned against him", despite it looking like that's what he wants. I'm more worried about getting him to continue doing positive things in the future than I am about stopping him doing negative things right now.

But something needs to be "seen to be done", or alienate people who are not in the cabal. This is the third example of high-profile violations getting a short block in the last few weeks. Last time, I looked over the previous 5000 or so blocks and only found four 3RR blocks of less than 24 hours, for example. Do we expect that we'll have happy Morlocks slaving away forever with this inequity?

A possible (non-punative) measure is having ArbCom issue an injunction stating that Greg is on 0 revert, 0 attack, 0 bot (?) parole, etc etc, with a statement that he's welcome to continue contributing in a positive manner but that damage to Misplaced Pages won't be allowed. Sadly, this should be paired with an indefinite block of the IP until he promises not to blow shit up, as is standard. If his promise is by IRC, e-mail, or voice, a statement that it has been received should be placed somewhere public. No need for an apology or any of that nonsense, but a clear message that blocks will be applied, and an injunction means that no one has to hesitate to perform them.

brenneman 02:53, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

An indefinite block of Greg's IP would also be an indefinite block of an Arbitrator just elected to a three year term. Are you quite certain this would be a good idea? Kelly Martin (talk) 03:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

It should not be difficult to help Mindspillage find a proxy that he can use for editing. True, Gmaxwell might be able to take advantage of that too, but that doesn't mean we should be paralyzed with fear. Nandesuka 03:34, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Kelly, the block of the IP can be undone, leaving only the block of the user account. A block of Gmaxwell will not affect Mindspillage. 03:36, 24 January 2006 (UTC)SlimVirgin

There's no need to block the IP. Any sockpuppet causing trouble of the kind Greg has caused will be recognized pretty quickly and blocked. It's the Gmaxwell account that needs to be blocked for longer than 24 hours. I wouldn't say indefinitely, but I think the week-long block ought to be restored, to give him a chance to consider whether he wants to be part of the project, with all the frustrations that necessarily entails, and which he currently seems unable to handle. SlimVirgin 03:40, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm operating on the assumption that we'd treat this independant of whom it is that's acting up. I find it hard to credit that if a static IP has run a destructive bot from a username and again from a sockpuppet that we'd think for more than five seconds before we'd block the address until that person foreswore more bad behavior.
brenneman 03:59, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm reminded of Wik. He was hardbanned for the same kind of thing. I appreciate Greg's concerns about copyright but I'm not sure that the right response to not getting your own way on day one is to start vandalising the place on day two. As he's noted on his talkpage, he's technically adept enough that banning him would not be sufficient to prevent him from carrying out further vandalism but it sure would give him a message.

I think you have to separate the user -- bad -- from the agenda -- good -- and give him the message: you're banned until you turn the dial down and try to achieve your goals a bit more patiently. Grace Note 04:06, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything more than we can or should do at present. Greg has developer rights on the toolserver, and his investment in the project as a whole is not in doubt. I think we should just wait for him to cool down as very little damage has been done except for hurt feelings.

And honestly if anybody brings up "morlocks" and "little people" again I shall vomit. Greg is precisely that, not an administrator or an arbitrator, and by his hard work and talent he has made himself a great asset to the project. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 05:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

LOL. You read my mind! You know damned well that if someone you didn't like was doing this, you'd be leading the charge, Tony. It has nothing to do with "investment in the project". Lir made many good edits. So did Wik. Grace Note 05:13, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

To be frank: While Greg is indeed neither an adminstrator nor an arbitrator, one needs only to scroll up a bit to discussions of "collateral damage" to see that he is politburo at the least. If we continue to give senior contributors free ride to wheel war, vandalise, run bad bots, and generally do whatever the hell they want, let's not be suprised that the peasants are revolting. I suppose we could just quote the ArbCom and tell them to fork off, but good luck maintaining 934,826 atricles without them.
brenneman 05:30, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

As much respect as I have for Greg, I have to agree with Brenneman. We can't tolerate this shit. It's one thing to gawk at punitive blocking. It's another to gawk at preventive blocking to prevent further crap from occurring. The practical problem, of course, is how to get Mindspillage to edit. Presumably she will have to use a proxy, or we'll have to disable the autoblocker for Greg's account, as the autoblocker will automatically block any IPs he has been using. Johnleemk | Talk 06:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

John, he is a technically adept user. He can easily circumvent any block. So it's pointless seeing a block as a way of actually preventing him from editing. But if his ID is blocked and his IP left untouched, he is given a message. Or we could just all purse our lips some more and tell ourselves how much we "respect" a user who respects other users by blanking their userpages rather than talk to them. Grace Note 10:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

What are you getting at? I've already said I want him blocked as long as he continues to damage the encyclopedia. You're talking to the wrong person here. Johnleemk | Talk 12:09, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

And who pretends to be an admin, threatening to block people who disagree with him, regularly makes personal attacks, tells people they're using Misplaced Pages as free webhosting because they don't want their user pages to be edited by others (nothing to do with images, mind you), and asks good editors to stop editing outside the main namespace because he doesn't like the way they voted in an RfA. The people defending him have to realize that they've weakened their own positions regarding the next time they call for a troublemaker to be blocked. If they're prepared to take that on board, good luck to them. SlimVirgin 11:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I think he asked people to stop editing outside the main namespace. But that doesn't make it any less ridiculous. Sjakkalle (Check!) 11:59, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Sjakkalle. Fixed it. SlimVirgin 12:05, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Xerves

I have blocked Xerves (talk · contribs) indefinitely for threats to disrupt Misplaced Pages and for a legal threat at User_talk:Haikupoet#Rant.2FThreat_from_Xerves. If he would like to discuss his disruption and recant the legal threat, I will consider unblocked him. User:Zoe| 19:34, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• Xerves has apparently used a proxy to edit User:Haikupoet/Wehatetech_trainwreck. I moved his comments to the talk page for that item, but I felt a note should be made. Haikupoet 06:57, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Piecraft, part two

Time for a stupid question from a new admin. Ever since his 24 hour block last month, Piecraft (talk · contribs) has disdained logging in, and has instead continued to contribute anonymously from a variety of IP addresses and sockpuppets. He's even gone as far as to use them in attempts to vote twice at several AfDs. Some of the accounts, but probably not all, have been collected at Category:Misplaced Pages:Suspected sockpuppets of Piecraft. Apart from that, should we be doing anything else? - EurekaLott 20:08, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Dispute between Pamento and Pickelbarrel

This is a rather nasty quarrel. I have to admit that I am finding it rather difficult to spot where it all began, but at the moment this much is clear (or not as the case may be!). I was contacted by a somewhat distressed User:Pamento yesterday regarding this matter on my talk page. He asked me to give him advice about how to stop User:Pickelbarrel harrassing him. I then told him that he should avoid anything confrontational and to report Pickelbarrel to an Admin for harrassing him if he kept on.

Pickelbarrel's response to this was to start harassing me on my talk page and to ask User:Cenestrad how best to get rid of me.

Right. Now as far as I can see, on the 14th of January Pamento made a perfectly reasonable comment on User:Uncle G's talk page asking about his opinions on WP:NOT dictionary policy. Then Pickelbarrel makes an unsigned comment on Pamento's talk page telling him not to harass UncleG (around 5:00 UTC), for no other reason, in my opinion, than newbie jealousy. Pamento then, stupidly, rises to this making an unsigned vandalistic comment on Pickelbarrel's talk page. This then begins a chain of events which lead to Pickelbarrel blowing this out of all proportion, attacking Pamento at every opportunity, using Uncle G's name in vain, Pamento getting nasty with Uncle G as a result... well you can see for yourselves really, all the pages I have found which link to this 'dispute' are linked above. To write it all down here would make for a dissertation.

I just hope that you Admins can make out of this a good and lasting peace! Dan 22:05, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I will add that although this probably doesn't fit the page guidelines, I was sent here by an Admin... so don't blame me! :-D Dan 22:08, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• I've already asked both editors to stop, and I've twice told Pickelbarrel that we should be civil to everyone here. I don't want to become embroiled in this dispute, which really has nothing to do with me. I'm rather busy working on WikiSaurus at the moment. Support from other people, reinforcing my requests to desist and to be civil, would be welcome. Uncle G 09:01, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
• Move along, nothing to see here. Really folk, just leave these guys to it if they so desire - it's not really doing any harm (only their talk pages) and they're both much the same. They'll get bored at some point. See also: User talk:Wangi#Asking for possible help re an uncivil Wikipedian. Thanks/wangi 09:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
  • ... and my talk page. Uncle G 09:43, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
• I've looked and as I just told Sam Korn, I don't see an actual dispute (you know, like content, spelling, article naming, etc.), I just see two people kicking and spitting at each other--in such similar styles and levels of hmmm "contributions", in fact, that I'm considering the possibility that they're actually both the same person. They/he/she really needs to take a time out. Tomer 09:25, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
  • It would be interesting to see the IPs of all involved in this! ;) T/wangi 09:41, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Well, my problem seems to be that I seem to be the only person who has a problem with this. However... it appears to me to be a very bad thing that we let this sort of madness continue, and also if these two are separate entities then we are giving Pamento especially (as a newbie) a very raw deal. He is clearly being harrassed by Pickelbarrel, whose behaviour (as well as his spelling) is atrocious. But that's just my opinion. Dan 22:00, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
    • I happen to think they're both in need of a time out. Forced, if necessary. Tomer 22:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Dan, his only contributions are to his own, Pickelbarrel's and some of our talkpages: Special:Contributions/Pamento... oh, and one real edit. If these guys are making a mess of your talk pages then just clear it up - that's your choice to do on your own talk page. However I don't think there's anything much here to get excited, or waste time, about. Pickelbarrel has made a number of edits, and at least one new article, and he seems most excitable, but lets not piss on the parade of two (if they are two :) potential new editors. By taking this to this platform we're stooping to much the same level level that they are operating at - pointlessness! Lets try to encourage rather than ban, after all these guys are not vandalising the encyclopedia. Thanks/wangi 23:18, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
      • You mean "this guy". ;-) Tomer 06:30, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

User:WritersCramp

This person's userpage routinely containsoffensive content, for instance 'This user is a proud homophobic. Gaylords not welcome'. I have asked the user to cease and desist, because he violates WP:NPA left right and centre. I will block him if offensive material is re-added to his userpage. The Land 22:14, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

blocked for 48 hours for blatant violations of WP:NPA as well as violating a number of other policies. Jtkiefer ---- 23:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Ditto. The Land 23:05, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Considering that he has been repeatedly blocked in the past, including a one month block back in November, what do you think a 48 hour block will accomplish? User:Zoe| 23:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

It will keep him off wikipedia for 48 hours ;-) Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 23:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

If he keeps doing it after this, I think a considerably longer block would be justified. I, somewhat lamely, hadn't checked the block log on him. The Land 23:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Given that "homophobe" is actually a personal attack lobbed by homosexuals, and given that noone here seems to be named "Gaylord", I think complaining about hir user page (which is obnoxious in the extreme, don't get me wrong) is really counterproductive in complaining about hir making personal attacks. It seems like blocking him for adding material, taken by some editors as offensive to them personally, to his userpage is, at this point, simple vindictiveness. Misplaced Pages content is not censored for the protection of minors, but users are blocked if some editors don't like other editors? Something is fundamentally wrong with that approach. (WP:NPA is another matter, which has nothing to disagreeing with someone's politics or holding them in disdain for their sexuality.) Tomer 09:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

He is using his userpage to shout 'I hate gays'. He uses 'homo' as an insult in edit summaries. He refuses to stop doing so when asked to. He is an unpleasant troll who shouldn't be allowed to troll on wikipedia. The Land 10:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

It's only the first sentence of that summary that I was calling into question. People use their userpages to proclaim hatred for all kinds of people. If it's OK for people to hate George W. Bush on their userpages, it's OK for WritersCramp to hate gays. Abusive edsums and trolling are different matters. Tomer 17:41, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

See also Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/WritersCramp, in addition to his continued disruptive behavior, he has several sockpuppets, some with names that are specifically personal attacks meant to incite people. - Trysha 17:47, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I suspect that he has created an account to work around the block, the account User:BionicBoner has picked up in conversations where WC left off right after he was blocked. Same style of userpage, same interests - and by username policy, (clearly refers to genetailia) this account should be blocked as well. - Trysha 22:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

While I don't support his behavior, I have to say I can't help smirking at his inventive account names. :-) Anyone know anything about his ISP? Tomer 06:29, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Danielle Cunio

I'm not the "North Carolina" vandal. Just because I do supposed "vandalism" doesn't make me be the NC vandal. I am new to Misplaced Pages and want to know why there are so many claims against me?IWKA 22:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Onefortyone may be violating probation

Onefortyone inserted a (in my opinion) poorly sourced paragraph of hearsay and rumors about Cary Grant's sexual orientation into that article. I reverted, with an explanation on Talk:Cary Grant about the inadequacy of the sources and the prior discussion on that page about the need for very strong sources if the article is to include claims that Grant was gay or bisexual. Onefortyone has re-inserted the text twice, ignoring my request that he wait for comments from other editors, and attacking me in an edit summary: Could it be that you do not like sources which prove that Cary Grant was bisexual? I went to Onefortyone's talk page and discovered that he is on probation for just this sort of behavior. If this is a violation of his probation - I think it is, but I could be wrong - I would appreciate an admin assist. Thank you. | Klaw ¡digame! 23:33, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Onefortyone has stopped re-inserting, although he has repeated the personal attack twice on Talk:Cary Grant and has not addressed the question of the sources' reliability. | Klaw ¡digame! 23:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Onefortyone re-inserted the text again and continues accusing me of anti-gay bias. I am at three reverts, so I'm done for the day. | Klaw ¡digame! 00:12, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, you are the person who has completely deleted my contribution to the Cary Grant article. Months ago, there was already a discussion on the Talk:Cary Grant page concerning the same topic in which another user said about your reverts, "Don't presume to whitewash someone else's life just because you don't agree with it." See . Onefortyone 00:31, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Those comments weren't about me or my reverts or edits to that page. Those comments were placed on the talk page on August 7th. My first edit to Cary Grant came on August 16th. | Klaw ¡digame! 01:23, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for confusing you with another user. Onefortyone 01:58, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

The claim is clearly sourced from published books with named authors and so belongs in the article. All it needs is more NPOV phraseology. FearÉIREANN\ 00:45, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

My argument is that the single source is not reliable, as it relies on double-hearsay and its accuracy is in question. While the text can easily be balanced with counterarguments (Grant's widow and one surviving ex-wife both vigorously argued in TCM's documentary on Grant that he was heterosexual), a battle of hearsay sources isn't my idea of encyclopedic. | Klaw ¡digame! 01:23, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

But all Grant's wives have to go for evidence was . . . hearsay. They weren't with him every minute. They weren't married to him when he was with Scott. One of them wasn't even born. All they had to go on is things he might have said to them (how many gay or bisexual husbands tell their wives the truth?) or they might have heard from other people. In other words, hearsay. If the personal opinions of ex-wives count, so do the personal opinions of colleagues and friends. It is all or nothing. You can't say 'I believe source x rather than source y' because that is POV. FearÉIREANN\ 01:40, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

That's what I said - hearsay is not good enough for an encyclopedia, and unless we have something stronger than a questionable author saying that someone told him that someone else said Grant was gay or bisexual, it shouldn't be in the article. Onefortyone has no other sources than that one book; the comment from Arthur Laurents is completely unsourced, while the line about Bringing Up Baby is unsourced and probably irrelevant, as it's based on his own interpretation of the word "gay" in the film's dialogue. My point for the original post is that Onefortyone's probation appears to require him to strongly verify edits about the sexual orientation of actors and actresses. These edits appear to violate the probation. | Klaw ¡digame! 02:18, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I have now added some quotes from Arthur Laurents's book, Original Story by Arthur Laurents: A Memoir of Broadway and Hollywood to the Talk:Cary Grant page. See . For the gay subtext of the Bringing Up Baby line, see . Onefortyone 03:15, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

This quote is from that last link: There is no conclusive evidence that Grant was bisexual. (That's the conclusion of a graf on his sexuality.) If a site dedicated to the topic of LGBT culture in Hollywood says that there's no conclusive evidence, then Onefortyone's edits are merely rumors, which don't belong in an encyclopedia. | Klaw ¡digame! 03:56, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

The source only says that there is "no conclusive evidence", which means that there is some evidence, supported by hearsay of the time. Biographers are frequently discussing the topic. Certainly rumors are part of a celebrity's history, especially if there are several independent sources which support the claims. 80.141.240.145 04:07, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Onefortyone has posted the text of the Laurents source on Talk:Cary Grant. It's clear that Laurents himself was unsure of Grant's sexual orientation and had no concrete evidence to say that Grant was gay or bisexual. In other words, Onefortyone's edits do not match the source material. I still believe the content should come out and Onefortyone has violated his probation. | Klaw ¡digame! 04:57, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Requesting assistance with a Wiki Admin

Hello, I am requesting help with a particular admin here that has stated I could be banned for what my personal position is on discussing matters with other Wikipedians. For some background information and I also want to clearly state my problem. I joined Misplaced Pages in December of 2005 in response to the actions taken concerning the wiki article "wehatetech" or "we hate tech." The article has been pulled several times and I do understand that once it's voted on somehow, not exactly clear on that, it's removed from the encyclopedia. I am NOT here to fight for that particular article. i understand that there is a guideline for articles, BUT my observation and opinion is that the rules were not followed properly in the process of deletion. Why am I still here? Well, in a nutshell, I have seen people removed from the site or blocked for various reasons I also do not agree with, but it up to those individual people to address their removal. I decided to stay in order to provide constructive criticism of the deletion process and to add another viewpoint to the issue. I feel improperly judged, reading from responses to my post, a "one issue candidate" and have been threatened with removal from the site, being a sock-puppet for "we hate tech" and accused of "cluttering" talk pages.

My purpose is not to clutter the site or be on any type of mission to tear down Misplaced Pages. I wish to understand why certain things happen here and hope to add thoughtful insight and more information to topics in order to resolve an issue. I do feel like I am being pushed around and generally really upset with the whole process with a select group of individuals either working behind the scenes or posting on my talk page. Two Wikipedians have stood out in this whole situation, User:Haikupoet and admin User:Zoe. I have had several exchanges with both, with Haikupoet moving one comment and then deleting my response to because I was under the impression that it was deleted. My response comment was then deleted, which resulted in the blocking User:Xerves. The block happened due to a supposed "legal threat" by "Zoe" which has now threatened me with the same. It's not MY forum I am promoting. I am a member of such forum and website http://www.wehatetech.com and I am NOT trying to promote in the first place.

I AM promoting that fellow Wikipedians discuss issues and not stomp over other postings by others. I am being totally honest and upfront. I do not have a hidden agenda. Have I been totally innocent? No, there are two comments / edits on my behalf that broke regulation. i was dealt with in a proper manner by those admins and I am thankful for that. If further investigation yields that I be removed from Misplaced Pages then so be it, as long as I am adequately told as to such infractions. i only wish to resolve this issue. i have deleted none of my post and will not edit any of my post to make myself appear in a different light. Everything is available through my user history.

Thank you. Kmac1036 23:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Greetings, Kmac. Your complaint would be more appropriate at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. If you move it there, you're more likely to get a response. – Quadell 23:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I have move this here per suggestion by "Quadell." Thank you. Kmac1036 00:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

• I'm User:Haikupoet, and I thought I'd tell my side. First off, I moved Kmac's posting from my main page to my talk page. If that's not allowed, than I apologize, but I think it entirely reasonable as talk pages are where that sort of thing is supposed to go. Second, I have tried to explain to all parties involved in the Wehatetech mess how Misplaced Pages is supposed to work (check my user page for a summary of what I've tried to tell all of them). What I think we have here is a clearcut case of refusal to understand the system -- the WHT crew simply don't want to accept "nonnotable" as a reason for disinclusion in Misplaced Pages, and continue to try to force the issue long after any other AfD would have run its course and been forgotten. As for Xerves' comments and subsequent banning, he did not threaten me, it is true, but he did threaten (implying that he was speaking for the WHT community as a whole IMHO) to drag the fight out until they get what they want. Haikupoet 00:42, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I told Kmac that if he were to carry out his threat to disrupt Misplaced Pages by repeated insertions of wehatetach, then he could be blocked for WP:POINT (). I said nothing to him about legal threats. The legal threat was made by Xerves, as I explained above. #User:Xerves. Kmac is also repeatedly accusing me of having blanked his User page, which is not true, and which I repeatedly try pointing out to him that he can read the history to see that I have made no edits to his page, but he repeatedly accuses me of using "admin tools" to hide my edit. User:Zoe| 16:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

External campaigning group spamming talk pages to pack Misplaced Pages debates

• Wiggins2 (talk · contribs)
• Jason Gastrich (talk · contribs)

Content of the spam is:

Come and vote your mind

Dear Christian friend,

I saw you on the list of Christian Wikipedians and wanted to let you know about something. The other day, someone nominated 12 Christian biography entries for deletion! They include a Christian university list of people (not unlike 68 other lists like it), presidents of universities, and authors of many books.

Since that time, people have been voting. Please take this message as a call to vote; not a call to vote a certain way. I respect you and your ability to come, read the entry, and make a wise decision. In other words, I’m not vote stacking or campaigning; simply letting you know something that you’d probably like to know.

By the way, my friend recently started an organization called Wiki4Christ. If you’d like to join a network of Christians with a purpose on Misplaced Pages, please see the site!

Below are some of the links that need attention. Thanks for your consideration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Louisiana_Baptist_University_people_%28second_nomination%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Neal_Weaver

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jimmy_DeYoung

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/James_Combs

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Robert_Morey

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Daniel_Dorim_Kim

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/J._Otis_Ledbetter

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ron_Moseley

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mike_Randall

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Charles_Pack

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mal_Couch

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Thomas_Ice

God bless you, Wiggins2 07:24, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

--Tony Sidaway|Talk 00:52, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Somebody tell me now this isn't a good enough reason to delete POV user categories. Hermione1980 00:55, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes. That still isn't a good enough reason to delete such categories. If liberals, conservatives, pro-lifers, pro-choicers, Irish users, British users, monarchists, republicans, Americans and others can all notify each other about debates that interest them, why can't christians? What can't users in a free society communicate with likeminded individuals on an issue of mutual interest? Sometimes it seems as though the least liberal and least pluralist individuals are those who proclaim themselves liberal and pluralist but who insist that their views and agendas are right and everyone who disagrees with them are wrong, a bigot, a fascist, a conservative, or something else. FearÉIREANN\ 01:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

You completely missed the point. The whole thing is that nobody should be doing that. -- SCZenz 01:08, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Why on earth not? Irish users let me know if there is an Irish-related topic being voted on. Writers on royalty let me know if there is a topic on monarchy being voted on. UK editors inform me if there is a vote on UK issue being voted on. Do you imagine that people are physically able to keep track of every debate? They can't. Like-minded individuals will always let others know what is going on. It seems to me that the issue here is that its those damn pesky Christians doing it! And that annoys the likes of Tony, who can be every bit as intolerant as those they accuse of intolerance. BTW I am not religious. In fact I oppose much of the Born Again Christian agenda. But they have every right to communicate among themselves, as I do with everyone else. FearÉIREANN\ 01:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I understand that letting people know about the discussions they're interested in is reasonable. However, taken to too great an extent, what this guy is doing does disrupt our consensus-forming results by overloading the discussion with people on one side of the issue. People have no right whatsoever to disrupt Misplaced Pages. This has nothing whatsoever to which POV is being pushed--can you please stop setting up that particular straw man? -- SCZenz 01:23, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

This is a more complicated issue than either side makes it out to be. On the one hand, we don't want people to bring in tons of meatpuppets from outside Misplaced Pages to interfere with deletion discussions. On the other hand, we don't want to delete potentially valid articles without the contributors knowing about them. As mentioned above, people can't always keep an eye on every article they've edited in the past. If someone nominated one of my articles for deletion for whatever reason, I might not even know about it until after it was done. Maybe the answer is more notification requirements on AFD debates in general? Then this kind of campaigning would be unneeded, and could be stopped. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 03:05, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

The issue is bringing in people who have nothing to do with an article, because you expect their opinion to agree with yours. That's different than notifying authors, and it is a problem. -- SCZenz 03:10, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

• I suggest we block Wiggins for a few days for disrupting our consensus-forming process to push his POV and to make a WP:POINT. Radiant_>|< 01:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea - that would be one way of determining whether he's a Jason Gastrich sockpuppet or not ;) Guettarda 01:37, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Whats the policy on blocking accounts that are role accounts?--nixie 01:41, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

• It depends from your definition of "role account". There are different definitions. An account that can be used by multiple people fulfilling a single role is frowned upon. But an account used by a single person to distinguish edits made when that one person is acting in a particular role (from other edits made by that one person) is generally acceptable. ('bot accounts fit the latter description, after all. Uncle G's major work 'bot (talk · contribs) is, in this sense, one of my role accounts, for example. I have also seen some administrators that that have secondary accounts that explicitly do not have administrator privileges.) Accounts that are purported to be role accounts, but that are actually not role accounts are frowned upon. Two purported role accounts that are both contributing to featured article/talk page/deletion discussions are not actually accounts where a single person is acting in distinct roles. Uncle G 10:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with a block as there seems to be broad consensus for that I'll carry it out.. If it's thought to be a sock then someone will ask for it to be sock checked. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 01:46, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Fully support block. NSLE _(T+C) 01:50, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Support block, but I think we need to be very clear that the problem is any POV-pushing of this type, not the particular POV being pushed. It's an easy mistake to make, I think. -- SCZenz 01:58, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I blocked him for 48 hours for this incident, and on going to checkuser requests I saw he's already listed there as a possible sock of one Jason Gastrich. Seeing Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Jason_Gastrich, where he openly admits using socks, I'd like to study this more but my gut instinct is that we should probably start discussing whether it would be appropriate to indefinitely block all accounts of this fellow.

Of course there is nothing intrinsically wrong with socks, appropriately used, but this fellow's stated reasons aren't convincing. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 02:03, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

kill his socks but give the main account one last chance after the current block expires.Geni 02:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I too support this. What I take issue with here is the attempt to push POV. Notifying users who already have a stake in the discussion (as in, they already gave input) is fine, as if the situation has changed, it would be good if they could clarify their stance WRT the changes. It is also okay to notify users who might know something about the subject -- in other words, "Experts". For instance, if a Malaysia-related article were put up for deletion, it would be best to ask Malaysian editors about it to see how notable it is. Likewise, something may be very popular in Ireland, but the article being AfDed may not have made this context clear -- Irish folk can help clear this up. But there are at least a billion people who claim to be Christians in the world, and the chances of finding one who knows something important about theology (and can thus expand the AfDed article or explain a point of importance on the AfD) are rather slim. Thus, this is not an attempt to clarify the facts (which should be done more often, but isn't done for fear of POV pushing) but an attempt to push POV, which must be strongly condemned. Johnleemk | Talk 02:07, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

See also this where someone called "Jason Gastrich" boasts about the success of "Our latest ministry, Wiki 4 Christ". Misplaced Pages isn't a place for spiritual ministries to operate. I am going to block this fellow Gastrich's main account for twenty-four hours with immediate effect pending discussion of what we do about this. I'd like to get agreement, ideally, for an indefinite block of this user and all socks in the hope that we can deter Gastrich from trying to bring his ministry to Misplaced Pages. . --Tony Sidaway|Talk 02:13, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

That's going way too far IMO given the ambiguous nature of the comment. Some American Christians refer to almost anything they do as a "ministry", rather than reserving the term for actual preaching alone. Can anyone show evidence that actual disruption has taken place here, and what the nature of that disruption was? We don't expect our editors not to have POVs, just not to insert those POVs into articles. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 03:09, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

If he has been disruptive, ban him for disruption on the same terms as anyone else. Let's not, and let's not seem to, ban someone for proselytizing. Tom Harrison 03:18, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

You guys should read the link Tony provided, for example take a look at this:

We are a network of Christian Misplaced Pages contributors. We have five main objectives.

Our main objectives:

1. Make sure Christian entries are fairly and accurately represented

2. Contribute new Christian entries

3. Network together to make each entry as good as possible

4. Voice our opinion on the inclusion of Christian entries

5. Glorify Jesus Christ

Item 4 indicates an intent to disrupt Misplaced Pages. What's inherently wrong with having a "ministry" of whatever kind here is that it's an effort to use Misplaced Pages for a goal different than its purpose: to make a good encyclopedia. -- SCZenz 03:26, 23 January 2006 (UTC)Is

In any case I don't buy the "Some American Christians refer to almost anything they do as a "ministry"" line. If they think that I don't think they're likely to be capable of working within out neutrality policy. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 04:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't remember you ever complaining about my working within the neutrality policy. Maybe you should review my work and see if any bias has crept in. Tom Harrison 04:26, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

You're zooming way over my head here. Take it slowly. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 04:40, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

The 'line' you say you don't buy, that everything I do is a ministry, is a principle I subscribe to. Am I then incapable of working within our neutrality policy? Tom Harrison 04:45, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, I think that Jason's consecutive nomination of about a dozen atheist articles for deletion (described in his RFC) is indeed evidence of disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point and I would have no problem with a 24-hour block on that basis. I just don't want this to turn into some kind of witch hunt against fundamentalists (as much as I disagree with fundamentalist ideology myself). Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 06:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

This chap contacted me in email and I've told him I'll unblock his main account if he can list his sock puppets so they can be blocked. He does sound like he sincerely wants to promote contribution to Misplaced Pages and I have no quarrel with that as long as he can find a way to do so without breaking the neutrality policy. The other isues with his behavior can be addressed in the normal way but at this stage I'm trying to look for evidence that this guy has a good faith wish to work with us and start a dialog. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 06:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I have, I think, three major problems with Gastrich.

First, his use of socks. He is quite open about past use of socks, professes intent to use his main account for "the vast majority" of edits going forward, but still appears to be using socks (or possibly meatpuppets) to evade 3RR on articles where he is in an edit war. I can't offhand think of a credible reason for him to use a "role account" (I have considered using my old account for main space edits now my new account shas sysop rights, but even then I'm hesitant).

Second, his blatant intent to use WP as "ministry". There is nothing wrong with being guided by faith, and nothing wrong with openly working to ensure that Christian subjects are covered, it's working to the effect of having them coveredto a specific viewpoint which is the issue. He removed Ben Franklin from the list of deists citing his own "evidence" on his website; Franklin is on record as openly a Deist, and there is authoritative evidence now linked form the resotred entry in the list. Gastrich appears to be one of those black-and-white people, and that is always going to cause friction. His representation of the Louisiana Baptist University entries as "Christian biographies" is a case in point: LBU is, according to the available evidence, an unaccredited institution teaching fundamentalism to fundamentalists. These fundamentalists then go on to teach other fundamentalists, creating a sort of walled garden.

Third, his incivility - or rather, the fact that he tends to personalise everything. Not that I am unfailingly polite myself, anyone can kick back when riled, but it's his invariable tendency to ascribe motives to actions; anyone who AfDs an article on somoene who happens to be a Christian is thereby anti-Christian (even when they are a self-declared Christian) - much more, all on the RfC. There was an edit war over the inclusion or non-inclusion of a Gastrich book rebutting The Skeptic's Annotated Bible. Both sides were pushing POV: one pushing a critique of Gastrich's critique, the other pushing Gastrich (being mainly Gastrich himself, anons on what is stated to be his ISP, or suspected socks). I solved this in the usual way by removing both and taking it to Talk, with the comment that it seems to me that there is sufficient dispute about the authority of the Gastrich text that including it is unacceptable at this stage absent consensus on how to handle it, which I would have said was pretty uncontentious, especially given that those removing it had cited some pretty scathing and apparently well-informed criticisms of Gastrich's books. This provoked a very aggressive response, and a vigorous assertion that Amazin reviews are reliable, and that the fact that many of the reviews were high star ratings automatically made the source a good one - omitting to mention that the high star rating reviews were accompanied by some very well-argued one-star ratings, and in any case Amazon reviews are not a reliable source.

I would like to be satisfied that Gastrich will be massively less aggressive in the future, but his RfC response is utterly defiant. I believe he genuinely can't see what's wrong with what he's doing, and that is probably the fundamental issue.

Apologies for the long reply. - Just zis  Guy, you know? / AfD? 12:21, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

So he is uncivil, tries to force edits against consensus, uses sockpuppets contrary to policy, and you reasonably expect him to continue all these. That sounds block-worthy to me. His religion may have brought him here; it should not be a reason for us to send him away. Tom Harrison 13:08, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think anybody ever suggested that his religion was the problem. But when he pushes his religion to the point where it disrupts Misplaced Pages, then it's a problem. The disruption's the thing. · Katefan0/mrp 16:18, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I would strongly agree with this. Jason Gastrich is disrupting Misplaced Pages to push his religious POV, accuses everyone else of disrupting Misplaced Pages, not assuming good faith, making personal attacks, being religiously intolerant, etc. etc. Stifle 16:41, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Tom, I appreciate your point that using words like "ministry" and whatnot doesn't necessarily taint the fellow's contributions, and I agre that his religious motivations aren't the issue here. Since he contacted me he has been very quiet and I think he's just waiting out the block. This doesn't bode well; I had hoped to see him make a full disclosure of socks and start a dialog, but no response so far. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 18:34, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Which seems to be par for the course. From what I can find of his participation in other fora across the web, he's treated each as a vehicle for self-promotion and witnessing. I counted four different fora that he has permanently blocked from participation, all for self-promotion and/or witnessing and refusing to abide by policy. I don't doubt he'll follow the same pattern here. FeloniousMonk 18:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Tony; I don't oppose blocking him. As Katefan0 says above, the disruption is the thing. Tom Harrison 19:47, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

• "Kosebamse's law - People of strong opinion are not banned or blocked for promoting strong opinions. Eventually, they are banned or blocked for violating social standards in the attempt to defend their views." Very applicable in this case. Radiant_>|< 21:43, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I just checked my email. He did get back to me (there was a confusion over my identity which wasn't his fault, and one reply went astray). He has identified the following accounts as socks, but they're all blocked already.

• Adelaey (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Big_Daddy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Big_Hater (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Big_Lover (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Chacha1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Chochi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Neutered (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

These were all blocked in November by Karmafist (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

He says that Wiggins2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and God's child (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) are people known to him and coordinating with him, not socks per se.

He has noticed the block on his account by Felonious Monk:

• 05:35, 24 January 2006 FeloniousMonk (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) blocked "User:Jason Gastrich" with an expiry time of 24 hours (Continued participating on AFD despite RFC and admitted sockpuppetry disruptive. Blocked pending outcome of checkuser investigation)

His comment on this is "I do not use sockpuppets and I have done nothing wrong." Hmm, I think this chap has some re-education ahead of him. I've replied saying:

• Well I think you've admitted using socks, and there do seem to be quite a lot of things wrong with your behavior. I advise you to step back a bit for now and try to work out what all these people are upset about, and how you are going to make things right for them. It's a hard job to do but essential if you are to learn how to work with Misplaced Pages. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 09:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view recent edits

All -- there have been some questionable edits going on recently at WP:NPOV, with some concomitant edit warring. I'd encourage everybody to stop by the page and weigh in on the debate over these changes. · Katefan0/mrp 01:49, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Dabljuh

Further incivility, mindbogglingly enough, on the RfC about his incivility. Someone please block User:Dabljuh for an appropriate amount of time. (Just the latest in a long string of unbridled abuse.) I'd block him myself, but I'm arguably "involved", since I supported the RfC from the outset... Tomer 02:21, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Admins can't block for personal attacks unless they rise to the level of dissrupting wikipedia.Geni 02:53, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Have you read the RfC? Tomer 07:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Skim read it. Just appears to be the latest shots in the cercemsission issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geni (talk • contribs)

I assume "cercemsission" is supposed to be "circumcision". The RfC does not concern circumcision, however, it concerns gross incivility that is, in fact, an egregious part of the user's disruption, as it happens, of circumcision-related articles. Tomer 08:10, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Statements such as "Since that time he's been obsessed with circumcision-related articles...edits to such articles comprising well in excess of 95% of his subsequent edits. First contribution on the subject is incivil, unproductive and overtly trollish. Circumcision-related edits have overwhelmingly dominated subsequent contributions " make me question that. The number of people signing up is low enough to make any claims of dissrupting wikipedia questionable.Geni 08:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

So it's OK then if his disruption is limited then to a narrow group of articles and his personal attacks limited to just a few editors, notably those with whom he happens to disagree who, as it happens, contribute to those articles? Until you actually take the time to go through his contribs, it seems to me you should reserve judgment. I think we're done here, as this has now become a discussion of his RFC tho, not of his continued disruption. Tomer 09:00, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

From what I can see Dabljuh's behaviour is in violation of various policies, but not in a particularly vicious manner, and is stimulated by the ongoing dispute over circumcision. I don't see any reason to block him. The Land 13:13, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say it was ok. I just said it was outside the juristion of admins.Geni 13:36, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

There's a reason why user conduct RfCs have a link to the user in question's contributions. If you check it you'll see that his disruption is not only obvious (including on his own rfc), but not limited to circumcision. Take this gem for example. Tomer 14:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Apology from Hotrocks vandal

This was posted to my talk page:

We are sorry for the 'hotrocks' (User:Hotrocks) vandalism - instead we agree to become good contributors - and we have decided that we don't get any entertainment out of it.

This is a genuine apology and we are sorry.

Apologies again,

--Hutracks 12:11, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't have time at this moment, can someone else familiar with the incident in question please investigate and possibly unblock? Thanks :-) - David Gerard 12:49, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

The blocklog indicates that User:Hotrocks was blocked as a Willy on Wheels. However, there is only one surviving contrib in their history (a misleadingly summaried addition of a {{totallydisputed}}). Presumably, all their moves have been deleted, so it seems hard to verify whether they were in fact Willy or not. Kate had a deleted contribs browser; is it possible to somehow construct that by hand if you're an admin? -Splash 12:53, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

We were a group of WoW-impersonators who did a sort of breaching experiment. David blocked some of our sockpuppets, we didn't mean any harm, sorry for our vandalisms. Now we come back to do positive edits. --Hutracks 13:47, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

• Tough. Actions have consequences; breaching experiments often have the appropriate consequence of rendering the experimenters unwelcome in the society in which they performed the experiments. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

But is the blocking policy not for preventing damage rather than punishment? -Localzuk (talk) 16:37, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

It also calls for indefinite blocks for people who act like indefinitely banned users. --Deathphoenix 17:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

If any admin wants to give them another chance (everyone is theoretically forgivable), they can unblock and then watch closely just in case of damage - David Gerard 17:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

He "apologised" to me on October the 27th (User talk:Finlay McWalter#Hotrocks Vandal); his apologies are as worthless as everything else he's done here. Block, revert, ignore, repeat. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:31, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Repeated personal attacks

Misplaced Pages's policy on No personal attacks gives as an example "Negative personal comments", and "Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views". How many is an individual allowed to get away with? The latest (although quite mild) was posted a few hours ago (references show diffs):

These are all from user:ScienceApologist, who used to by the username of user:Joshuaschroeder before changing it .

• 23 Jan 06: "...not in the mood to educate you on improving your baloney detector at this time"
• 21 Dec 05: "Marmet and Carezani are well-known woo-woos"
• _9 Dec: "...it's only fair that Arp's pathological skepticism (reference to scientist Halton Arp)
• _5 Dec: "Iantresman is on some strange personal vendetta may be true"
• _3 Dec: "User:Iantresman, very incompetent in this regard,"
• _1 Dec: I am "...an avowed Velikovskian and hasn't received formal training in physics or astronomy."
• _1 Dec: I am a "nonscientist layman"
• 18 Nov: "... a list full of "critics" who range from geologists to the out-and-out insane (such as VanFladern)." (Referring to astronomer Tom Van Flandern)
• _8 Nov: Removing credentials from physicist Dr. László Körtvélyessy

--Iantresman 15:03, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

1. Not a personal attack.
2. Are these Misplaced Pages editors? If not, then it's not a PA.
3. As above.
4. You do appear to have a personal vendetta against Joshua, as evince by your rejected RFAR and harrassment like this. He is describinb your behaviour, not your personality. Not a PA.
5. Questioning your competence on a matter is not a PA.
6. Is it an attack to call you a Velikovskian? This is not a common insult, but if you are offended by it maybe you should have advised Joshua that you consider it an attack. As for the second part - either you have formal training in physics (in which case it's a factually inaccurate statement) or you don't. But it's not a personal attack.
7. "Non-scientist layman" is not a PA.
8. Again, unless VanFlandern is a Wikipedian, this cannot be construed as a PA (and even if he were one, I don't think NPA forbids one to comment on the quality of a person's off-Misplaced Pages professional persona).
9. Nowhere near a "personal attack".

Guettarda 19:04, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Guettarda, on reading the Misplaced Pages's policy on No personal attacks, the 1st two sentences read "Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Misplaced Pages. Comment on content, not on the contributor." (my emphasis). Bearing that in mind,

(1) "not in the mood to educate you" is clearly aimed at the contributor, and questions their education.

(2) (3) (8) These may not be aimed at Wiki Contributors, but are still personal attacks, because (a) they are aimed at individuals, (b) seem to fail the very first sentence on the policy page. I wouldn't expect to see any of these comments in an encyclopedia, or professional journal.

(5) "User:Iantresman, very incompetent in this regard," again is aimed at the contributor

(6) "... hasn't received formal training in physics or astronomy" (6) "Non-scientist layman", again are both aimed at the contributor. ScienceApologist, doesn't know my education beyond what I have on my personal web page, and whether the comment is true or false is irrelevent to the content of my contributions.

--Iantresman 23:01, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

At the head of this page is the following text:

Please be aware that these pages aren't the place to bring disputes over content, or reports of abusive behaviour — we aren't referees, and have limited authority to deal with abusive editors.

What do you want? If it is some kind of sanction for those comments, then it is extremely unlikely that you'll get it here. You should consider a WP:RFC (and whatever follows in the WP:DR). Latinus 23:05, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

If Adminstrators have limited authority to deal with Personal attacks, then of course there is no point my mentioning it. I just assumed that if there was a Misplaced Pages policy against something in order to focus on content rather than contributors, we'd get a better encyclopedia. It also seems pretty ironic that Guettarda suggests that I am harrassing ScienceApologist, merely by bring to attention evidence of contravention of a Misplaced Pages policy; a bit like punishing whistleblowers for speaking out --Iantresman 00:58, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Excesive Vandialism by User

User:209.12.51.207 recently vandalized Personification . I checked the User Talk page and the user already had a "last warning" test 4 on it. Does that means somebody should ban the IP? Where (talk) 15:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Looks like this IP's been blocked for 3 hours. If you want to report on a user that should be blocked immediately for vandalism (such as a user vandalising articles even after receiving a test3 or test4), try WP:AIV. To report on a user who is vandalising articles, but doesn't necessarily need to be blocked immediately, try WP:VIP. --Deathphoenix 16:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Consistant NPOV reverts

User:Ramkumar.k keeps on inserting non-NPOV material into Jimmy George. I have reverted the edits 3 times, but s/he continues to put the stuff back in. Please advise. Where (talk) 16:09, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

It may be time to avail yourself of some of the suggestions in Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. If this person (or yourself, or anybody) reverts an article more than 3 times in a 24 hour period, however, they may be blocked for violating the three revert rule. You can report such violations here. · Katefan0/mrp 16:21, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Improper block of User:Mirror Vax

I was reading the history for Canadian federal election, 2006 because I wanted to see if the disclaimer template that I nominated for deletion was actually being used on that page. Apparently, not only was it used, but one contributor was blocked for removing it. User:Physchim62, the template's author, placed it on the page at 9:39 AM . User:Mirror Vax then removed it. This turned into a revert war; Physchim62 placed the template three more times and Mirror Vax removed it. Each of them had exactly three reverts. (Psychim62's reverts: ; Mirror Vax's reverts: ) In other words, both of them were right at the limit of our "electric fence". All well and good, except that Psychim62 then blocked MirrorVax for a spurious WP:3RR violation, despite the fact that (1) he had not made a fourth revert, (2) Psychim62 had also made three reverts, and (3) he was involved in the edit war, thus making his block clearly an inappropriate use of administrative powers.

Can someone please undo this block? I've worked with Mirror Vax in the past on Commodore-related articles and can verify that he is a good contributor. And the block clearly violated Misplaced Pages:Blocking policy, specifically: "Use of blocks to gain advantage in a content dispute. Likewise, users should not block those with whom they are currently engaged in an article-editing conflict." Thanks for your assistance in this matter. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 18:49, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

You're right, he only reverted three times. Not stellar performance, but not blockworthy either, particularly since he was involved in a content dispute over what sort of template to use with the blocking admin. As a courtesy, I'll ask that he unblock him. If he isn't available to do the unblocking in a timely manner, I'll do it. · Katefan0/mrp 19:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Also used his rollback button to revert. Tsk. · Katefan0/mrp 19:07, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Mirror Vax is now unblocked. Please note that the first of my diffs is an edit, not a revert. It was to place {{ElectionResultsCA}} on the page, as discussed on the relevant talk page. This template has also been discussed at length on TfD, where there is a near two-thirds majority to keep (and hence to use it on the page for which it was destined). During that discussion, the wording of the template has been edited to try to address the concerns addressed. Unfortunately some editors are not willing to accept this consensus: User:Mirror Vax seems to be one, given his edit summary "this is an encyclopedia, not a pulpit for intimidation and propaganda". User:Crotalus horridus also seems unwilling to accept that the template does not fall under WP:NLT. I apologise for the incorrect block, and I hope that other administrators will better keep their calm about this page tonight. Physchim62 (talk) 19:10, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick reply, Physchim. I understand the frustration. Maybe you could encourage the folks discussing this template at TfD to come to the page in question to help build a more lasting consensus. · Katefan0/mrp 19:15, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Canadian federal election, 2006

(continuation of above) I should mention that there has been lengthy discussion of the problem (official blackout of certain results of the Canadian election between 00:00 UTC and 03:00 UTC 2006-01-24) on Talk:Canadian federal election, 2006, TfD and VP policy. A great deal of consensus has been reached, but some parties remain unsatisfied. Given the timescale, I cannot see any greater consensus being reached before the polls close. Hence, unfortunately, there is likely to be edit warring tonight. No by me, I'm off to my European bed—I just felt I should warn the duty admins of what to expect. Physchim62 (talk) 19:30, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

• You and another user has reached a lot more consensus that the rest of us! Consensus may be in the eye of the beholder. Nfitz 20:04, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I say let them post that information, unlike Yahoo and Microsoft we don't help countries censor their citizens. Jtkiefer ---- 21:52, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Saugeen Stripper page protection

Request for page protection on the Saugeen Stripper article while a deletion review is in progress due to various users trying to avert process. --OntarioQuizzer 19:03, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

New Instantnood and Huaiwei Bans

I banned Instantood and Huaiwei both from Clock tower. Revert warring without discussion and the usual jabs in edit summaries.

I also banned Instatnood from Category:Transport in Hong Kong, Category:Transportation in Macau, and Category:Transportation in China, reverts on old fights in otherwise stable articles (or cats as the case may be) without summaries or discussion.

The full list for bans per this ArbCom ruling can be found here. --Wgfinley 19:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

And I just added Lists of country-related topics as well, missed one. --Wgfinley 20:24, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

And another....Singapore Science Centre, both Instant and Huaiwei, blatant revert warring. --Wgfinley 20:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

7 Day Blocks

I have blocked both Instant and Huaiwei for 7 days effective immediately for continued and incessent edit warring despite numerous warnings, pleas to reconsider, and article bans accumulating at more than one a day (not to mention what I'm sure we're missing). This blatant disregard of their probation requires a more direct response and I believe this block is in order given their continued edit warring and disturbance to Misplaced Pages. --Wgfinley 20:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Request for semi-protection

There are three pages that are being consistently vandalized by different IP addresses (anonymous postings), as can be seen by their history (whoever is doing this is hitting all three pages most of the time) - perhaps even an automated program?

These three pages are very low-volume posting pages, so semi-protection should be of minimal hinderance. IP blocking seems pointless. Thanks! John Broughton 19:46, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Ananda Marga (15 incidents of vandalism since January 2nd)

User talk:Prozak (24 incidents since November 7th)

User:JesseW/Full mirror list (22 incidents since December 16th)

User:66.194.104.5

This ID was apparently being used to make death threats back in June of 2004, and User:RickK blocked it. I don't have any information about the ID myself, except for seeing the kinds of threats being made. We have received an email at the Help Desk mailing list from St. Petersburg College claiming it is their firewall internet address. The email came from a person in their network technical support staff. Should this ID be unblocked? User:Zoe| 19:58, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and unblocked it. User:Zoe| 21:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Saugeen Stripper protected in violation of WP:PP

I am highly concerned by the precedent being set here, although I still hold out hope there was a mistake. To summarize. Article was created in december and was AfD'd. Result was non consensus/keep. Immediate deletion review. It was immediately AfDd again. Again result was non consensus. Now there is another deletion review. Fine, that is the process. But while it is deletion review, a couple of users have chosen to redirect the article endlessly, despite the fact that the AfD result was keep. I posted a message requesting temporarily page protection of this article at least until the deltion review took place, and now (either as a mistake or out of spite) the BLANK article has been protected. Can someone please do something about this? Phantasmo 20:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

No, sorry... there wsa no consensus to DELETE, but that doesn't mean there is no consensus to redirect. 46 people wanted the article removed, only 20 people wanted it kept as is... that's a clear consensus. So it's been redirected. No we have people who were on the side that had less than 1/3 of the vote trying to claim that they can force their will upon everyone else and being deceptive about what the votes were in order to try to keep it as a full article. The redirected article has been protected, which is certainly clearly within process of how things should be handled. Deletion review has no bearing on whether the article is redirected or not. If they do consider redirecting as part of the official delete vote, then they would also have to consider the 46 votes to remove and then go ahead and redirect anyway. People who lose votes need to stop playing little wikilawyering games where they try to claim that no consensus to do one specific action means consensus to do their action, because that's not how things work. DreamGuy 20:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Who lost the vote? The result was non consensus KEEP! Those who favored deletion then put this up for deletion review. While the deletion review is taking place, the article should remain in the state that the AfD result dictated, which is KEEP. The guy who placed the article up for deletion review (below) even agrees that the redirect is a misuse of power!!! All I ask is that the process be honored. I have no personal stake with this article, but I do have a stake in wikipedia's processes being honored. This is an end around at best, a blatant violation at worst.Phantasmo 20:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

No, the result was "no consensus", which defaults to keep. It's an important subtlety. AfD and DRV have no bearing on what form an article takes, only whether or not it exists. android79 20:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

This is semantics. The article in question is up for discussion in deletion review. Those who supported deletion redirected as an end around. Now, the deletion review process is meaningless because there is nothing left to judge. The article was a non con keep. Not a merge redirect. That also results in a clear difference. Secondarily, no matter how you slice it, R Fiend has violated WP:PP. That much is a fact. Phantasmo 20:53, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Looks like it's time to trot out that old comment that too many people keep bloody forgetting: AfD is not a vote! Maybe I should make up a template. Or a userbox? They're all the rage, right? "This user knows something about AfD that you evidently don't."

Oiy vey...For goddsakes, this is not a hard concept. I understand that AfD is not a vote. I am not the one falling back on #'s! I am basing my comments on the closure result. The simple, unalienable stance that I have is this. AfD twice was closed with the result of No Consensus: Keep. Not Merge redirect. Not delete. Not KEEP. I believe that there is no detriment to leaving the article as a standalone article while the deletion review process plays out. If the result of deletion review is delete, let it be deleted. If it is relist, let it be. I just believe that is the most acurate representation of the process as it is supposed to be. I understand that the power to redirect is always there, but following a 2nd non consensus keep, a redirect/protect in the middle of a deletion review by an admin involved in the back and forth editing REEKS of impropriety and abuse of power. It just does. There are even proponents of deletion who believe this. Just because something CAN be done doesn't make it the right thing to do. Phantasmo 01:10, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Apparently the admin that protected the page has also been involved in the edit war itself. This is, unfortunately, a violation of WP:PP. --OntarioQuizzer 20:25, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, so perhaps it's not appropriate for me to comment. I voted "keep" in that latest AfD, but when I did so I counted the votes, and it looked pretty clear that "redirect" would be the result. If WP:PP was violated, that's another matter, but I think the vote's result was pretty clear. | Klaw ¡digame! 21:21, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Klaw, perhaps, but the closing admin declared it non con/keep as only 40 of 66 favored deletion. Whether or not that was a correct closing is a discussion for the deletion review page. Until then, the AfD decision should be upheld. That is policy. And the WP:PP violation was blatant. Phantasmo 21:24, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

A redirect is fairly clearly in line with policy in this situation, so long as no content gets lost. However, while I was tempted to protect it myself, I don't think that's the right thing to do. The Land 21:52, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

• Since there was an obvious edit war, protecting is proper. Since one side was supported by strong consensus on the AFD page, protecting it in that version is acceptable. Please stop wikilawyering, an AFD is neither binary nor a vote. Radiant_>|< 21:55, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

• • I heartily concur here with Radiant!. The closing admin's decision was no consensus which, as he said in making the closing, supports neither keep nor redirect. Johnleemk's closing decision was most definitely not "keep". Either keeping or merging would be acceptable purely as a result of the AfD; which one ought to have been hashed out on the Talk: page rather through an edit war. The edit war resulted in page protection, as always on m:The Wrong Version. -- Jonel | Speak 01:48, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not up to date on this whole debate, but I'd just like to comment that an AFD result is never an argument against creating a redirect and/or merging. This is a wiki, and creating a redirect is an action any editor can take.. -- SCZenz 22:15, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

True, but the issue is one of page protection. It would be appropriate the create a redirect and protect it if the consensus had been delete, but the article kept being recreated. There are two concerns here - one is that the page was protected by someone who was involved in the edit war, and the other is whether the page needs protection at all (the decision should have been made by an uninvolved party). Guettarda 01:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I was the closing admin, and anyone who is claiming the AfD supports them should be shot (yes, this means both Phantasmo and DreamGuy are wrong). The AfD got no consensus, defaulting to keep. This does not preclude the formation of consensus in the future (and not necessarily through AfD) nor can it be used by itself as a reason to either keep the article as is or redirect it. I intentionally typed this message in caps to highlight this on the AfD, since I've noticed more and more of this retarded "OHNOES NO CONSENSUS === KEEP SO FUCK OFF YOU DELETIONIST REDIRECTORS" occurring in the wake of no consensus AfDs. Apparently the message didn't get through: AFD HAS ZERO BEARING ON THE CONDITION OF THE ARTICLE NOW. IT'S OVER. IN THE PAST. IRRELEVANT. FORM CONSENSUS BASED ON DISCUSSION NOW, NOT A DISCUSSION OF TWO DAYS AGO. Johnleemk | Talk 06:13, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

John, again, I have to defend myself here. I understand that the closure of AfD does not preclude a redirect. All I am saying is, I think it is inappropriate for those who were pushing for deletion to suddenly reverse course and push for a redirect as soon as the AfD is closed, and while the deletion review is taking place. I also think that it is inappropriate for an admin involved in teh debate to protect a redirect version of the page. I think that your remarks in your post above are unnecessarily hostile. The deletion review should have taken place and then redirect could have been considered. There would have been no great harm in that, and it would have shown greater adherence to the spirit of wikipedia policies, if not the actual letter of them. Phantasmo 14:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

There's no reason this dispute can be hashed out on the talk page. No reason at all. Shifting this out to DRV or AfD is a delaying tactic from whichever side is behind this (I honestly don't care who it is) to delay getting consensus. You can discuss this on the talk. There's no need for a DRV, and even if the DRV is filed, you don't need to discuss potential redirection there -- the talk page isn't automagically deleted if a DRV or AFD is filed. I honestly don't care if those "delete -- be gone!" people changed their minds overnight, but without bothering to examine their actions in depth, it makes sense to me, unless they all specifically stated "delete -- no redirect". All this reflects is the pointless AfD custom of having only one "vote". I wouldn't be surprised if, when asked to prioritise, they would have put delete first and redirect second. Perhaps this sort of instant run-off voting (except we don't call it voting; we call it alternative recommendations in the debate. ^_^) would be helpful, if people actually practiced it. Johnleemk | Talk 15:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes...the BS that AfD has become. It should NOT be a vote. If many people want to merge or redirect, then no consensus obviously does not equal keep. The article should be a merge at best, consider that only at Misplaced Pages would you find such untterly unnoteworthy cruft and ignorance to the process. If THAT cruft is notable enough, then Misplaced Pages is .01% of what is size should be right now, 99.90% of this site should be BS cruft that only a small of minority (often related to the topics themselves) want in there. This is getting way out of hand. Process...process...process...people just keep milking this to find any excuse to put in BS, and then complaint about those who try to trim out the fat by protecting. Protecting may have seemed unreasonable before, but it seems justified now. I bet Britannica never has to have editors actually have to argue over the inclusion of BS, its like having arguing why -2^(1/2) does not exist five times...what a waste of time.Voice of All 15:50, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

In fact, some of us did just that: "Merge and redirect, don't count this as a keep" I believe is approximately what I wrote. The protection (hell, the closing of the AfD) by an involved editor of the page was a conflict of interest, but this binary thinking about the outcome of the AfD is sort of skewed... -- nae'blis _(talk) 15:57, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Wiki-stalking by malber

malber (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) was previous blocked for making personal attacks on me including saying that autism is a "social construct to hide behaviour" and that people with it should "just accept the fact that she's a jerk", comparing me to some pig thing from star trek and so on

I'm posting this here because now he is going around trolling and wiki-stalking me - reverting any change I make, presumably because I pointed out his previous nastiness (I have quotes and diffs in a comment on my talk page for reference, near the top)

His first follow-on was to the template Template:User Aspie, where he placed the template on his page (he does not nor has claimed to have AS (form of autism) and said it's a "social construct for hiding bad behaviour") and then used that as an argument for provocatively hanging the template from it's design that many people were using and had been agreed with on the talk page to an ugly-looking bright purple and green one (he also tried to claim that the userbox and category should be deleted, given his clear bias against the group of people in general you can see why, really)

An admin caught this but now he is doing more of the same behaviour as you can see looking at his contributions. He has been following around reverting edits I make on purpose just to harass me.

some links:

• (Eve Angel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - see history, as well as removing the site (simply because I added it) he also has been repeatedly adding an "offensive content warning" to the article (and maybe other articles too) - which having read around quite a bit about this there is definitely no consensus to do)
• Rehabilitation Project Force (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - I have edited this article and most of the content he deleted was made by me. Given the edit regarding "skills" -> "people communication skills" I suspect this all might have something to do with me being a "known" against Scientologist or "Suppresive Person" as it looks like malber has some knowledge about Scientology and may be a member of the Church of Scientology - a possiblity, anyway)
• (Racial steering (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - again, just because I added the content he pops out of nowhere and reverts me)
• (Strap It On (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - again, follows me in a very short space of time onto an article he's never edited, obviously stalking me via looking at my contributions, and reverts me, this time claiming it's an "advertisement" (because its a link to an article about a video series))

I don't think anything can really be done at this point, I dunno, but it'd be nice if someone could at least watch him (I wouldn't be surprised if via his contributions-stalking he appears here and comments soon) as he's clearly just trying to troll against/harass me. --Mistress Selina Kyle 22:50, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

He also left a message replying to MSK on my talk page, here. - FrancisTyers 22:58, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Just keep us posted here, and if it escalates, appropriate actions will be taken. Can you give diffs of when you've warned him about this stuff, and whether anyone else has too? Thanks. Harro5 07:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Yet another Zephram Stark sockpuppet

Same old drill. I've blocked Cunning_Linguist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) as the latest ZS sockpuppet. See the mostly complete list here After I blocked KIMP (talk · contribs) (a Zephram sockpuppet confirmed by CheckUser), Cunning Linguist picked up when he left off and continued spamming people's talk page's with KIMP's message. Also, notice that CL's fifth edit was to accuse me (and Jimbo) of vandalism. Once again, no doubt at all that this is Zephram, but I welcome review by other admins. Carbonite | Talk 23:02, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry on Geoffrey Bolton by user:Velela

And the socks come thick and fast. See block log. I've blocked Velela 48 hours for this little piece of fun. Look out for more socks on this article - David Gerard 23:10, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Help me

Please help me contact Bishonen, I want to negotiate the unblock of the fighterforfreedoms, but her page is locked. This is urgent, please. - Talk

negotiate?... PAGE NOT FOUND. Jtkiefer ---- 23:41, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I think they mean User:Fighterforfreedom who is indefinitely blocked. This seems to be a sockpuppet of said blocked user. Makemi 00:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I am not a sockpuppet of fighterforfreedom. I am a war buddy of his. He was having difficulty thinking because of the medicine he was taking for the 5 bullets he took in Iraq. He would apoligize for his actions if he was unblocked. Thank You. Fffreedom 00:10, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

How do we know that he's going to be any clearer-thinking if he's unblocked? User:Zoe| 00:12, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

We pretty much know he won't, because I've tried it. Yes, my pages are locked — semiprotected — not for long, I hope — and Fighterforfreedom (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is one of the reasons. I've seen his apologies before and I'm through assuming any good faith with them. The first time he apologized I unblocked him. Bad idea. The other times the apologies have expressed desperation, indeed, and a kind of parody of every feeble excuse ever grasped at by a vandal. See here one typical cycle, posted in rapid succession and starting at Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters' page:

"I hope you lose the right to be an admin. you flaming homo Communist bastard, and yes I know I will never be aloud to edit anything again Bishonen you dumb assed bitch truckstop prostiute." Incomplete apology mode: "I am sorry. But I come from a culture that talks like that ... Please accept my apology and let me edit again or else me and my KKK friends will come into your house at night and slit your throat.". Full apology mode: "I apologize from the bottom of my heart. I am from a minority, and I feel I have been discriminated against not only on this but all of my life. I think Jimbo Wales would be disappointed if he saw this kind of racism on his own creation." My sister used my computer: "I accidentally left my computer on this and my sister pulling a prank decided to cuss everyone out. Please let me back in. If I put one toe out of line you can bann me for life."... Back to full abuse mode: "I took five bullets in Iraq for asswipes like you, and the lulu faggot, just so you can block me and write books about sexual wars!!! It outrages me!!! You both can be expecting a visit from my neo nazi friends, and when I get issue 457 passed, it will pave the way for me to seize power in Washington, and I will have people like you murdered by the thousands.". There are zero good edits. I understand that FFF has problems and is experiencing a strong psychic need to post on Misplaced Pages, and feels frantic. I'm sorry for it, but I don't really see that we can help. Bishonen | talk 01:37, 24 January 2006 (UTC).

He has been off his medication for a week now and is doing all the things he was before he got shot except moving his left arm which was hit by the bullets. Fffreedom 00:14, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

If you are not Fighterforfreedom, why did you make the exact same edit to Ward Churchill that he did? User:Zoe| 00:14, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry. That was a mistake on my part. I was looking through the damage he had done and accidently saved that archive. I apologize for my mistake. Fffreedom 00:18, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Fighterforfreedom is still wondering whether he will be unblocked soon or not because he would like to make some good, well thoughtout contributions to wikipedia on his time in Iraq. Also he would like to apologize for the creation of fighterforfreedom2 and fighterforfreedom3. Fffreedom 00:46, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

(And the creation of User:FighterforfreedomIV, huh?) Not, if I have anything to do with it. I'm sorry. Bishonen | talk 01:43, 24 January 2006 (UTC).

Thank you for replying Bishonen. I was not aware of FighterforfreedomIV. He did not tell me about that one. Once again he was on a rough doseage of pain medication that made him not think straight. He is now off of it and is thinking clearly. He is not here to get therapy or anything. He is trying to return to this wonderful community to further his knowlege and make good contributions when he can. Fffreedom 01:48, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Um hum. FFF is now also posting from 69.223.69.87 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), using the soft tone you see on this page (sorry, but I refuse to pretend this isn't him), yet, please note, concurrently still abusing Lulu in the other tone he has. Bishonen | talk 02:16, 24 January 2006 (UTC).

I'm with Bish. And stop using the "got shot in Iraq" ploy, please, it won't buy sympathy, not especially with what's going on. If he's "off his medicine" and no longer "not (thinking) straight" he shouldn't be attacking Lulu. NSLE _(T+C) 02:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

He didn't vandalize Lulu in the past 3 days. I am beginning to think the admins are discriminating against veterens. I saw a post where a vandal apologized and he was immediatly unblocked. I don't care if you don't support the war, just don't take it out on the soldiers. Fffreedom 20:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure it matters. Are not the death threats cited above enough to get him blocked for a loooong time, if not banned for good? --LV 20:47, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I think we should unblock him. I have been on pain medication before and know how bad it is. -GTBacchus 20:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks GTBacchus. Fffreedom 22:03, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Multiple Accounts / Admin Abuse

I'm having an issue with an admin who claims he can reveal one of my other editing accounts if he feels like it even if I'm not violating or planning to violate WP:SOCK. I think I'm protected by WP:SOCK#Multiple accounts and Misplaced Pages:Harassment since it's very easy to find personal information about me with the other editing account. The admin in question disagrees and also claims that a supposedly personal attack I made (disputed since the admin himself is personally involved in the matter) justifies his claims. Are there any official/unofficial guidelines for this situation? --ZimZum 23:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Requesting review from (an)other admin(s) would be a sensible step, but we'd need more information for that. -- SCZenz 00:59, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

From user's contributions said admins seems to be Tomer. NSLE _(T+C) 01:03, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

How does he know that your 2 accounts are connected. If you told him, I don't really think it would be harassment for him to reveal that publicly. -Greg Asche (talk) 02:52, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

From the conversation it became clear that the admin in question used admin privelidges to compare IP addresses. I'm mainly asking if it is normal for admins to 'reveal' double accounts whenever they run into one, especially when in a situation where they are not in a neutral position. To me it felt like harassment, the admin in question states his behavior is acceptable. --ZimZum 10:47, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

No, he didn't use admin privileges to compare IP addresses. It's a common mistake to think that admins can do that, but they can't, for privacy reasons. Only the handful of people with Misplaced Pages:CheckUser privileges can identify the IP addresses of logged-in users, by using the CheckUser tool, and they're only allowed to do that if there's independent good evidence for suspecting that a pair of accounts are a) related, b) being used abusively (for instance for one person to vote several times). Please see the CheckUser page for these safeguards of users' privacy. Tomer had no special "admin" way of finding out you were running a sock, so I suspect you told him, maybe unintentionally. Anyway, that's why Greg Asche is asking how Tomer knew. We can't say what's "normal" when admins "run into double accounts", because they simply don't run into them. You'll have to give us more information. Bishonen | talk 12:14, 24 January 2006 (UTC).

People have all sorts of reasons for running multiple accounts, e.g. people who edit a type of article they'd rather not have associated with their main account, admins who like actually editing articles without having trolls follow them around, etc. I don't (I have User:Querulous but haven't actually ever used it for anything), but if they're not doing evil with them then that's not actually a problem. If I spot multiple accounts with CheckUser, what I do about it if anything depends if they're actually doing evil with them. If one person is using two different names in two different areas, it actually looks just like two different people.

(And now I expect some idiot to follow up with "Ah but who are YOU to define evil?!" or something) - David Gerard 12:28, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Ah but who are YOU to define evil?! ;) Aecis 12:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I have no reason to believe there were any traces linking the two accounts. The admin in question didn't deny when I accused him of using admin priveleges, leading me to believe he did use an ip based method, or had someone with checkuser abilities do it for him. I also think it's questionable when an admin engages himself in 'user account guessing' which I believe is frowned down upon as well though I'm not overly familiar with wikipedia's guidelines. --ZimZum 12:37, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I really don't feel a need to "defend myself" here. The ZimZum account was initially created for the specific purpose of endorsing User:Dabljuh's bizarre response to RfC. Anyone with one working eye and access to Special:Contributions/ZimZum can figure that out. Examining those contributions and the writing style that accompanies them and comparing them to the interests and style of the other user makes the association a no-brainer. "ZimZum" might think there were no traces linking the two accounts, but as they say, a leopard can't change its spots. Of course I didn't deny using admin privileges to link the two accounts, as I said in my RfA, responding to trolls is counterproductive. There really was very little "user account guessing" required. Regardless, ZimZum himself confirmed beyond a reasonable doubt exactly who he was by his response. As for what's "questionable", that'd be the claim that ZimZum is Bo Peep's sheep. The account is being used to harass another user on Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/Dabljuh and elsewhere, and to engage in other truly questionable behavior. Tomer 12:54, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Linking the accounts is a far stretch, and I find your explanation not very enlightening. You and another user seem persistent in continueing the harassment. Justifying this kind of harassment by throwing wild accusations toward me in turn isn't changing much to the situation. TShilo12's post shows a rather disturbing viewpoint on how to settle disputes. --ZimZum 13:11, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

ZimZum, if you have a problem with me, I recommend you draw up an RfC, or try to resolve it some other way. In the meantime, please cease and desist from the accusations of harassment until you can provide evidence. Tomer 13:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Like I explained the other account can be used to trace my indentity which makes me uncomfortable when editing controversial topics. This falls under Misplaced Pages:Harassment, and I already asked you to stop it. I guess we'll just leave it at this and I'll quit contributing to wikipedia. --ZimZum 13:51, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I was more than happy to leave it rest. You're the one who brought it here. Tomer 13:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Professor Von Pie

Professor Von Pie (talk · contribs) repeatedly inserts POV edits into the Bob Hope article and is repeatedly reverted. I have asked him not to insert his personal opinion, but he just continues and now he sends me an email which says, "It will be reverted daily, possibly hourly". User:Zoe| 02:55, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to try sweet reason then block when if it fails - David Gerard 12:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd seen him previously. His edits are careless (little apparent heed for blending content into narrative flow- often only tacks something onto the end of a sentence turning it into a glaring run-on, sometimes ignores simple stuff like double spacing a para break) and the details are frequently wrong or misleading, the wonted gossip thing. Wyss 22:29, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

NPA Violation?

Does this diff rise to the level of WP:NPA violation, or am I being oversensitive? Thanks. --SarekOfVulcan 00:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Not quite, in my humble opinion, but it is uncivil. We know it was mean in any case, so what exactly it violated doesn't really matter, now does it? -- SCZenz 00:58, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

A little uncivil, not really an attack. But, really, you should know that you're not the boss of him. ;) · Katefan0/mrp 01:14, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Unless you're Boss Hogg, that is! El_C 01:52, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Another Zephram Stark sockpuppet?

Maybe somebody should keep an eye on Doctor Nicetan (talk · contribs). On his first day of edits (24 Jan 2006), he blanked the section on Inalienable rights that was previously blanked by Zephram Stark (talk · contribs), and another sockpuppet of his (Peter McConaughey (talk · contribs)). This "new" user seems to be familiar with wikipedia, using wiki acronyms, citing wiki policy, etc. --JW1805 (Talk) 03:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

• He's using an image uploaded by his earlier sockpuppet KIMP, using profanity, attacking other users.... All standard Zephram Stark behavior. --JW1805 (Talk) 04:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Using an image uploaded by his earlier sockpuppet KIMP isn't a standard Zephram Stark behavior. --Doctor Nicetan 04:29, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Ummm... sooooo socklicious . --LV 04:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Yep, it is pretty obvious. Just examine the Inalienable Rights edit history. There are three users who have a passionate hatred of the Criticism section and use exceptionally long edit summaries. They are Zephram Stark (talk · contribs), Peter McConaughey (talk · contribs), and now Doctor Nicetan (talk · contribs). It's the long edit summaries that give him away....that and the crazy ramblings on his user page. --JW1805 (Talk) 05:04, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh that's just great. Make fun of the handicapped guy. --Doctor Nicetan 06:57, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I've blocked Doctor_Nicetan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) indefinitely as yet another sockpuppet of Zephram. He's almost becoming a parody of himself. Anyway, he certainly is persistant, got to give him that... Carbonite | Talk 11:15, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

User WoohooDoggy has been blocked by a bot (page moves)

User:WoohooDoggy has been blocked by a bot intended to block pagemove vandalism.

Please check the move log for this user and unblock if this was an error.

Please delete this message after the situation has been resolved.

This message was generated by the bot. -- Curps 04:07, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Good block, page move vandal. They got away with much more than usual. Cleanup is needed.-gadfium 04:18, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup is complete. (Mostly done by others, not by me)-gadfium 04:26, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedians who dislike George W. Bush

is obviously not an "attack category" unless dislike is now a form of attack, there are clearly too many people in this category to simply delete it anyway, can't you just leave it alone?! Or at least stop the double standards and take all the anti-liberal templates and categories with it--205.188.116.65 04:47, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

• and yet it still gets deleted--The Creatorer 05:03, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

• double standard? nah--The Creatorer 05:08, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

This category was marked as deleted by a deletedpage template, which is silly. I removed it. I'd say that it's an extremely divisive and toxic category and I'm sure I'm not the only one, but those who delete it really should first ensure that it's depopulated first, Sticking deletedpage there won't delete the category, it'll create it! --Tony Sidaway|Talk 05:53, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

As it was apparently deleted out of process, I have recreated it pending any vote that occurs at WP:CFD. I encourage any interested parties to discuss it there, as the neither the Admin noticeboard nor the deletion log are appropriate places. —WAvegetarian•_{CONTRIBUTIONS}• • 20:30, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I didn't see this discussion in time and deleted the category again. I'll now work on depopulating it. (Update: The categories are essentially depopulated, but this is not reflected in the category pages, due to a well-known shortcoming of the MW software.) I'd like to point out that I also deleted Category:Wikipedians who like George W. Bush and Category:Wikipedians who support George W. Bush and replaced all three of them with Category:Wikipedians interested in US politics. It was pointed out that not everyone who has an opinion on George W. Bush is necessarily interested in US politices. That may be true, but then again, why should we care? If a user is interested in US politics, that's potentially useful information as far as the 'pedia is concerned: that user can be invited to join various politics-related projects, etc. But if a user is decidedly not interested in US politics, why should we care about their opinion on Mr. Bush? That's irrelevant, non-actionable information as far as the project is concerend, in the best case. I'd still like to ask anyone who disagrees to list these categories on deletion review, rather than simply recreating them. Thanks, --MarkSweep (call me collect) 20:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

• a nice empty gesture, since Category:Wikipedians who dislike George W. Bush has 65 articles under it, where as Category:Wikipedians who like George W. Bush and Category:Wikipedians who support George W. Bush have a total of three one articles under them, one of which is a template userfied template--152.163.100.65 21:14, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
  • The number of articles in each category is a random number determined partly by the number of templates that referenced each category, the number of users who transcluded each template, the number of users who who subst:ed each template, as well as the server's current mood. Most of these categories are essentially empty, what you currently see is just the ghost image still present in the cache somewhere. And I strongly resent the implication ("empty gesture") that real-world politics has anything to do with this, precisely because real-world politics is entirely irrelevant on this wiki, as I've tried to explain above. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 21:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I have now confirmed that all three categories are indeed empty. The fact that some pages are still being listed under these categories is due to a cache issue, which I was unable to resolve for now. This issue is expected to vanish during the course of the next couple of hours or days. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 22:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

User:LaShawn Barber

I have blocked this user for using a celebrity's name. The user claims it is her real name. Can we AGF and unblock, or should it stay blocked? User:Zoe| 04:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

See the user's talk page. I've unblocked. -- Longhair 04:58, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

User:☠

Thoughts regarding a username that's just a skull-and-crossbones dingbat character? I admit it: it makes me nervous. Perhaps I was swashbuckled by pirates once toward the end of a former life, I dunno. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 05:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I'm jealous.  :) Here's to hoping he (or she) turns out to be a productive member of the project... and not some dingbat. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 05:42, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

HA!! On a serious note, aren't folks with symbols as usernames generally blocked becuase of browser compatibility issues? For instance, this symbol just displays as a box for me. · Katefan0/mrp 05:47, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Ask them nicely to choose a more readable name, and show them how to put their pretty symbol into their signature…I've started the ball rolling. HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 10:15, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

MR. BRUXVOORT IS A WANG!!! vandalism by 67.162.148.73

User:67.162.148.73 is vandalizing the macroevolution article, replacing subject headers with "MR. BRUXVOORT IS A WANG!!!" This IP has zero other edits. Justforasecond 06:17, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Disposed of. Thanks. --Golbez 06:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Liberal Party of Canada leadership convention, 2006

I am being bold and have recreated this deleted article. It was deleted by an AFD a few days ago as it was speculative. As Liberal leader Paul Martin has tonight announced his resignation the reasons for which the article was deleted no longer exist. As this is a significant news story in Canada and the article will be in demand immediately I have taken the initiative of recreating it rather than going through the deletion review process. Homey 07:45, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with that. But couldn't you write this entire article as one section within Liberal leadership conventions? There are already sections for all the other leadership conventions by year, and the article is not big enough to break into separate subarticles. There's nothing special about this year's leadership convention that gives it merit as a separate topic. silsor 08:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

The Liberal Party of Canada leadership convention, 2003 has it's own article. The current one will doubtless grow. Homey 22:58, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

66.211.223.200 Vandalism

This user has some earlier edits and cleanups that appeared to be of marginal use, but then started going a little crazy. Since those weird edits, he's just been going around engaging in subtle link vandalism (with an odd obsession for articles on the French Revolution). Can an admin look into this guy? JoanneB has done an admirable job of following him around and reverting his vandalisms, but it would probably be better if we had a more lasting solution. KrazyCaley 08:48, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Ack, just noticed that the aforementioned JoanneB is one step ahead of me and has already blocked the guy. Apologies. KrazyCaley 08:55, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Zanimum2

I have blocked this account indefinitely because I think it is an impersonation of the administrator Zanimum. Looking at the contributions list I see only user talk page edits, can anyone please review? Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:51, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes it has to be.

So is user:kooorooo,after edirting a ku klux klan userbox,he joined zanimum and zanimum2 on an editing spree,deleting fair use images from user pages until he was blocked by user:Curps.

As he edited,the summary was given as -user:zanimum asked me to delete the images.

Zanimum2 also did a similar thing and made peronal attacks on user:booren page(also blocked).

he is probably a sockpuppet of kooorooo Batzarro 09:30, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

User:zanimum2 is not me, nor is Kooorooo. Three ways of telling Zanimum2 is not me...

1. I have an odd habit of not using the ~~~~ thing, and just going ]</wiki> to sign posts, leaving the user part visible; Zanimum2 has used the <nowiki>~~~~ thing.
2. Not that you can really prove this, but I never write or speak swear words. (I do think them occasionally.)
3. The userboxes on Kooorooo's page are on Zanimum2's.

As for proof Kooorooo is not me, I can offer little, except the fact I'm Canadian, and his userboxes are very Amerocentric. -- user:zanimum

I'm with zanimum on this. I have made a request for CheckUser on all impersonations of zanimum. Aecis 13:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Batzarros's userpage, need help

I need some help here, because I'm a bit confused now. I think the events are as follows.

1. Batzarro had some fair use images on his userpage removed by Zanimum, repeatedly.
2. Zanimum protects the userpage to prevent further additions of such images.
3. Batzarro asks me to unprotect his userpage and promises not to readd FU images.
4. I unprotect Batzarro's userpage.
5. Batzarro adds two FU images to his userpage.
6. I remove them and protect the userpage again.
7. Batzarro now claims that the images are either public domain or his creation and that they have the wrong tag.

I have trouble deciding what to do now, can somebody please help? Sjakkalle (Check!) 10:01, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

The star wars pic image:AEAT is a pic I made on my computer. The dog pic is from public domain. When I added the tag,I did not care about domain . Batzarro 10:07, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Are you Mike or Dave Sharples? The Star Wars image was originally credited as the joint work of the Sharples, but you uploaded the current version which has that credit coloured in. The two images are in all other respects identical. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 10:40, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

One of the key objection I had to your and Ferall's userpages is that the images were not fair use that were at least used in the encyclopedia itself, as well as on your userpage, but that they were exclusively used on your userpages. -- user:zanimum

Batzarro (talk · contribs), 220.247.254.190 (talk · contribs) and 220.247.252.135 (talk · contribs) have been violating WP:POINT by editing other user pages in retribution. The account and the IP's also seem related to Ferall (talk · contribs). Aecis 11:10, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I also believe that the Kooorooo (talk · contribs) and zanimum2 (talk · contribs) accounts have been created by Batzarro to prove a point. The wording Kooorooo has chosen on User talk:Kooorooo is completely out of character of zanimum, and is completely consistent with Batzarro's choice of words. Aecis 11:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, as the real User:Zanimum. Sadly, I must add Booren as another suspected sockpuppet. Booren's only real edits are to his userpage, which was taken down by Kooorooo in my name. Also Batzarro's usertalk page evidences he's a fan of Ashida Kim, the image added to this new user's page. -- user:zanimum

I've added User:Booren to the list. Aecis 13:17, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Ah, now we can add user:Zanee. Cute. -- user:zanimum

Curps has just blocked Kooorooo indefinitely. -- user:zanimum

I am not a fan of Ashida Kim but believe in neutrality. There is no proof that he is honest,no proof that he is a fraud either. The dog pic I uploaded was from a public domain site perrosdelargentina or something like that if I am not mistaken. I cant remember. Besides most of my edits and uploads were useful,except that i spend 25% of the time on my userpage which I narcistically fawn and croon over. Kooorooo edited the kkk template I added. I am an Australian/SRi Lankan/Indian/Singaporean mix not an American. As for kkk I have little caucasian ancestry.

Anyway just unblock my page?

The ADMIN who blocked me;user:zanimum had some fair use images on HIS userpage.He is the root cause of all the drama.Batzarro 17:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Why is this user still permitted to edit? Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:14, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Zanee (talk · contribs) keeps on removing the "suspected sockpuppet" tag from his user page. I am probably too involved to block him for this, so I would like another admin to keep an eye on him. If he continues, however, and noone steps in, I see no alternative but to block him myself. I will start at a 1 hour block, and I will then double it at every new revert. Aecis 17:34, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Other admins, note that Zanee has edited the article "Batzarro", adding a link to user:batzarro's page. Only Zanee, Batzarro, and Booren have yet to be blocked, anyone find the evidence against them enough to do so? -- user:zanimum

Slow-motion edit warrior

An anon at a moveable IP, most frequently editing at 129.241.94.253 (talk · contribs) but also using 129.241.94.254 (talk · contribs) and 129.241.28.247 (talk · contribs), persists in changing the disambiguation page Lost into a redirect to Lost (TV series), without discussion. Multiple attempts have been made to engage editor in productive dialogue (see Talk:Lost and the user talk pages for all the IPs); when these received no response, user was repeatedly warned, most recently at 15:27 UTC today, by Kukini. User ignored this, and made the same edit at 17:50 UTC. I think it's time for a block. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that blocking is the best answer, since he's used so many IP's. I think a page protection might be the best course; perhaps that will compel him to actually use the talk page. · Katefan0/mrp 19:40, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

That does make sense, although I think that if the warnings are to be taken seriously they ought to be followed by action. In this case, 129.241.94.253 was given a level 4 warning, which is supposed to be the "final warning", and then another one after that. A short block might be in order, just to show the user that the warnings aren't empty threats. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:52, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

If it's an anon, them semiprotection is probably a lower impact option. Guettarda 21:25, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

True, but the anon isn't vandalizing, it's a content dispute (or rather, a dispute over where the content should be housed), and semiprotection is explicitly not to be used to exclude anons from participating in a content dispute. · Katefan0/mrp 21:42, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Timecop Permablock

I'm definitely no fan of timecop or his ilk. However, I find the spurious accusation thrown by User:David Gerard that he is a sock puppet rather ridiculous. This flimsy accusation ultimately led to a permablock by User:Alkivar

Obviously, I whole heartedly support a permaban of timecop and all GNAA members. But at least be honest and up front about the circumstances. Wikicrusader 21:15, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

David has checkuser - it's his "job" to ferret out sockpuppetry. Guettarda 21:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

If there are any other confirmed accounts editing from the same IP as timecop, they should be considered the sockpuppets, not timecop. This is backwards. silsor 21:45, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

The dickyrobert account was the first indef blocked account of the person... all the others were linked to it... as we knew this as DickyRobert... it only makes sense that the puppetmaster gets marked as such.  ALKIVAR™ 21:51, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Problem User

Troll Penis (talk • contribs), potential long term vandal, unconstructive edit wars, vandalism, trolling, all efforts at dispute resolution seem to have failed--152.163.100.65 21:34, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

No such user. Typo? -- Curps 21:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Hoax. -- Curps 21:43, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

User created after the above. Blocked. Impostors too. -- Curps 21:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Indefinite block, User:Tommstein

At 22:21, 24 January 2006 (UTC) I placed an indefinite block on User:Tommstein, because frankly I have had enough of his obnoxious behaviour towards myself and other Wikipedians. In particular, his post on my talk page accusing me of "fruity-cult-standing-up-for-fruity-cult bias" , and his reply to my request to leave me alone where he states "... I'm about to get banned because of being painted as a bad guy and the only bad guy by your bias for a fellow cult" . This stems from his view of my Scientology background, which he reiterated (along with misc. other ad hominem) in what was essentially a spurious RfC against me, Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/NicholasTurnbull. He's been repeatedly warned by many people, including myself, and continues in this pattern of horrid behaviour; his contribs show this is a consistent pattern. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 22:37, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Good show.--Sean|Black 22:40, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

There's an AC case in the queue or accepted, but anyone in a case can email the AC, and doesn't actually have to be unblocked to participate. Just so's y'all know - David Gerard 23:10, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Kempler video

User:Kempler video (David Rutstein) has, for months, been editing Misplaced Pages for the sole purpose of promoting a conspiracy theory about the murder of Yitzhak Rabin. In recent weeks he has been re-writing articles to promote his view, and to insert links to his personal conspiracy website. He has also developed another conspiracy theory, that User:gidonb is actually a writer named Stephen Plaut who is paid to keep "truth" about Rabin's murder out of Misplaced Pages (gidonb made the mistake of linking to an article by Stephen Plaut). Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to manage this self-promotion and conspiracy theory mongering? Jayjg 23:18, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

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