Revision as of 08:47, 4 June 2010 editChumchum7 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users6,027 edits →Request concerning Varsovian← Previous edit | Revision as of 09:55, 4 June 2010 edit undoSandstein (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators188,191 edits →Result concerning Varsovian: cmtNext edit → | ||
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Standard header structure added and awaiting statement by {{userlinks|Varsovian}}. He has indicated on his talk page that he is unable to edit until Thursday, so this request should be held until then or until he edits again. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 05:04, 29 May 2010 (UTC) (Fake timestamp to prevent archiving: <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 00:01, 3 June 2010 (UTC)) | Standard header structure added and awaiting statement by {{userlinks|Varsovian}}. He has indicated on his talk page that he is unable to edit until Thursday, so this request should be held until then or until he edits again. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 05:04, 29 May 2010 (UTC) (Fake timestamp to prevent archiving: <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 00:01, 3 June 2010 (UTC)) | ||
:Sufficient time has now passed for this request to be processed. But in its current state it is too long and argumentative and contains too few relevant diffs. We are not interested in opinions, we are interested in evidence. I propose to close it and recommend that the filer resubmit his concerns in the standard format, that is, focused on the specific diffs of the edits that they consider problematic. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 09:55, 4 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Wikifan12345 et al == | == Wikifan12345 et al == |
Revision as of 09:55, 4 June 2010
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Click here to add a new enforcement request
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
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Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Appeal of the sanction against Aregakn
Appeal unsuccessful. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by AregaknThe appeal is for the sanction lift. Introduction:
The reasons for the appeal:
Aregakn (talk) 20:42, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I oppose the closure of the appeal as unsuccessful. The absence of interest or insufficient amount of admins should not be a basis to abandon an appeal. There have to be other ways to inform admins to participate. Aregakn (talk) 06:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC) Statement by StifleOne of the main issues related to this arbitration enforcement request was users throwing about the word "vandalism" to refer to edits with which they disagreed, rather than genuine damage to the encyclopedia. I rather doubt that this small sanction will have any serious impact on Aregakn's editing of the encyclopedia. Nevertheless, if there is a consensus that even the greatly reduced sanction I imposed after the appeal was excessive, then let it be lifted. Stifle (talk) 07:18, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by AregaknAlthough I have edited on the "Armenian Genocide" in the past I have not been involved in this particular issue. I just wanted to say that Aregakn has done a lot of good work on Armenian issues in an impossible environment where he is outnumbered by people with extreme right-wing opinions. I just wanted to say that he deserves that you go easy on him. He is doing a great job in an impossible environment. Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 01:15, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Aregakn
If there are no objections by other admins, I intend to close this appeal as unsuccessful because we do not have the required clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors to overturn the sanction. Sandstein 17:21, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
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Dr. Dan
Dr. Dan (talk · contribs) blocked 72h and interaction-banned from Piotrus and Nihil novi. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Dr. Dan
Discussion concerning Dr. DanStatement by Dr. DanThank you for your patience and allowing me time to respond. This proceeding is a very sad event. That it should be seriously entertained by anyone with authority to allow such a travesty to take place is equally sad. If anyone supposes that I should back pedal my comments and make a conciliatory "hat in hand" type of statement, I'm sorry but I can't do that. First of all because nothing provided in the so called "evidence", that I said, is untrue. It was not a personal attack, and most definitely in the context of those discussions, it was also not "incivil". Strongly worded perhaps, but not rude, and only in response to insulting and provocative comments made towards me and other editors. Secondly, when a participant in this proceeding accuses me of the criminal offense of blackmail and the parties involved who are supposed to adjudicate this matter do not immediately intercede and put a stop to such statements, this body needs to reassess it's priorities and objectivity. Or has allowing someone to call a Wikipedian a "blackmailer" become acceptable behavior here? If it is, I would appreciate hearing any evidence that I have ever blackmailed or intimidated anyone, anywhere, let alone on Misplaced Pages. I don't expect any evidence to be forthcoming, anymore than evidence was presented to prove the accusation claiming that another editor made "death threats" to this party . This entire matter arose over a content dispute at the Chopin article which was carried over to the Polish Project page, where I disagreed with Nihil's belief that Piotrus' participation had a "salutary" influence on the discussion. I'm still unsure if moving the discussion to that forum was a violation of the canvassing policy or not. In all fairness I did not even make a deal of Nihil novi's outbursts against me: In further fairness I have never brought any party to a proceeding like this in order to censure them, block them or anything of the like. Even when I have been called some pretty outlandish things. Fortunately I was not born in a society where people who are considered "opponents" need to be stifled. At this time it would be superfluous to recapitulate the remarks made by Skäpperöd, who beat me to it. I'm in full agreement with his comments, and if he had not already presented them, that would have more or less my concluding remarks. It is my hope that the persons reviewing this matter will find that this case against me is motivated out of former unsettled grudges, and therefore throw this one out. Respectfully Dr. Dan (talk) 02:20, 30 May 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Dr. Dan
Comments by Skäpperöd
Comments by LoosmarkSkapperod's comments above are a bit unreal. Dan has not "discussed the question whether it is appropriate to continue a discussion that belongs to the article's talk page" as Skapperod claims above. Had he really wanted to do that he could have just said something one the lines that he feels the discussion belongs on the other talk page. Instead he launched a completely and totally unprovoked ad hominem attack calling people "discredited", "banned", "compromised", "sockpuppeteer" etc. Skapperod's interpretation of what the Arbcom wanted or did not want doesn't make sense either, please check Coren's comments on the WikiProject Poland page: , . But of course now Skapperod knows better what the ArbCom intended than a sitting arbitrator... Skapperod's claim above that Piotrus "was desysopped" is also false. Piotrus voluntary resigned his tools as soon as concerns about his actions were raised back then. Finally I have deep concerns about Skapperod's attempt to paint the ad hominem attack as some sort of "satirical" semi-innocent comment. It sets a dangerous precedent and frankly it's the last thing that topic area needs. Dr. Loosmark 11:19, 28 May 2010 (UTC) Further comment: I find it interesting that Skapperod, Varsovian and Deacon of Pndapetzim, all known for countless disputes with Polish editors in the past, all came here trying to get Dan off the hook by trying to divert attention on Piotrus. The reality of the matter is that the incident is in no way Piotrus' fault, he did not even mention Dan in any way shape or form, nothing - Dan started a totally unprovoked bashing of Piotrus and that is not acceptable. Period. I understand it's hard to defend Dan's ad hominem but come on blaming Piotrus seems to be a real Alice in wonderland theory. Dr. Loosmark 14:48, 28 May 2010 (UTC) Comments by VarsovianI'm holding off on my full comments until I see Dr Dan's reply. However, I do find it interesting that after he has been "banned from articles about Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about same, widely construed, for one year" Piotrus is within one year engaging in discussion about whether the subject of an article should be described as wholly or partly Polish. Is Polish nationality not connected with Eastern Europe? Varsovian (talk) 11:00, 28 May 2010 (UTC) Further comment: Could Dr Loosmark kindly refrain from his standardous comments that I am a racist? Varsovian (talk) 15:12, 28 May 2010 (UTC) Comments by Deacon of PnpadetzimPiotrus' complaint here is in violation of his topic ban... "Piotrus (talk · contribs) is topic banned from articles about Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about same, widely construed, for one year. This ban is consecutive to any editing ban."Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern_European_mailing_list#Piotrus_topic_banned He still has most of this to serve. Piotrus' ban from this kind of thing was not negligence on ArbCom's part ... it was precisely to give the community a break from this kind of forum-shopping. To illustrate, the warning posted noted by Piotrus above comes from 2007. If Dr. Dan is to get a censure for his words--and even this would be a way over-the-top intervention--he should at least be warned. AE listing is complete overkill (and an example of the kind of escalatory tendencies which have caused so many problems in the area). So, a block for Piotrus, and closure of this thread. If an admin wishes to review Dr Dan's "incivility" independently, he should be encouraged to do so; but this thread and Piotrus' failure to deal with his "complaint" in the spirit of collegiality shows that, despite his three month ban, it is still unlikely that Piotrus is interested in anything more than getting one of his "enemies" punished. Very disappointing. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 14:01, 28 May 2010 (UTC) Request by SandsteinEditors who have been previously involved in Eastern Europe disputes (i.e., everybody above) are kindly requested to shut the hell up unless they have something useful to say. Everything which does not help administrators to decide whether and how to respond to this specific request is not useful, most especially general bickering and complaints about the user who is the subject of the request, or about other users. Editors who continue to make unhelpful comments may be banned from commenting on AE requests not concerning them. This is not a dispute resolution forum and indeed not a forum of any kind. Sandstein 17:02, 28 May 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Dr. Dan
I have reviewed the request and find it to have merit. The comments by Dr. Dan entered as evidence, and , violate Misplaced Pages's rules of conduct in that they make serious accusations against Nihil novi ("compromised, sockpuppeteer") without providing any diffs to prove them (I note that Nihil novi has never been blocked for sockpuppetry or anything else). Moreover, they are incivil and/or personal attacks against Piotrus ("banned, highly discredited") and Nihil novi ("churlish behavior as boorish", "base fawning"). It is entirely unhelpful to conduct interpersonal disputes in what seems to be a content discussion about a composer. The statement by Dr. Dan does not help his case, because he maintains that such comments are acceptable. They are not. Insofar as Dr. Dan alleges misconduct by Piotrus, Nihil novi or others, any such misconduct is not relevant to the request made against him here, and does not excuse or mitigate his own conduct, but can (if necessary) be made the subject of a separate enforcement request. In particular, while Skäpperöd points out that the "boorish" may relate to an earlier personal attack by Nihil novi against Dr. Dan, this does not give Dr. Dan the right to reply with attacks of his own. Contrary to what Skäpperöd says, the problematic edits are not made less problematic by being made, as Skäpperöd believes they were, in the context of a useful discussion ("whether it is appropriate to continue a discussion that belongs to the article's talk page at the Poland noticeboard for the only reason to allow Piotrus to participate") because discussing this matter does not require such accusations and attacks. Skäpperöd is also incorrect to state that "it is neither bad faith, nor uncivil, nor a PA to state that Piotrus is discredited and banned", because "discredited" is a personal opinion about the editor's merits that does not appear in any arbitral decision against Piotrus, and "banned" is shorthand for "site-banned", which Piotrus is not (he's only topic-banned). For the reasons explained on my talk page, I believe that filing this enforcement request constitutes necessary dispute resolution and therefore does not violate Piotrus's Eastern Europe topic ban. Editors who disagree may file a separate enforcement request about this. Taking into account Dr. Dan's previous block for incivility, as well as the reminders to the community at WP:DIGWUREN#Editors warned and WP:ARBRB#Editors reminded, Dr. Dan is hereby sanctioned as follows pursuant to WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions: He is blocked for 72 hours, and he is also banned from commenting on or otherwise directly interacting with Piotrus and Nihil novi for three months, except for the purpose of necessary dispute resolution (as determined by uninvolved administrators in their sole judgment). Sandstein 08:02, 30 May 2010 (UTC) |
Varsovian
Request concerning Varsovian
I've chosen not to use the AE template so as to provide a fuller account of this long story, but all the required content is here.
This filing is about Varsovian further to an Arbitration Enforcement warning here then a block here then my ANI here which led to a DIGWUREN Arbitration Enforcement warning by User:Sandstein on 26th April here and then most recently sanctions from User:Sandstein here
The DIGWUREN wording is clear: "If you, Varsovian, continue to fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process (including the policies cited above), in the Eastern Europe topic area, you may be made subject to blocks, bans or other sanctions according to the cited arbitral remedy without further warning."
I recently took a look at London Victory Parade of 1946, which is where much of Varsovian's troublesome activity has been. Sadly it appears that Varsovian has returned to his old ways there despite my ANI and the consequent warning that DIGWUREN sanctions may be applied.
Firstly, these edits are of most concern, and their misleading edit summaries are equally troubling:
In these edits, Varsovian has repeatedly re-added or defended a piece of data that other editors have contested; he has also personally synthesised this data from other pieces of information in the citation; he appears to have done this to enable him to make his own desired assertion that 'no more than 8,000 members of the Armia Krajowa were full-time armed members as of 1943' and variants of this.
It seems that the citation he uses does not specifically provide us with the data, but Varsovian has made his own calculations from data in the source and reached this statistic himself. While that could have been an uncontroversial breach of WP:SYNTH easily dealt with, the bigger problem is that the synthetic data is being used in breach of WP:POINT and WP:BATTLE. He appears to want to use this synthesised statistic as a weapon to compete with other editors on the page. Varsovian has been at WP far too long not to know that he was in breach of WP:SYNTH, and that he should not have disputed other editors' problem with this material. But he continues to defend it aggressively.
Other editors cut the data because they cannot find anywhere in the citation. Varsovian is warring to keep the data in place. As can be seen from edit summaries and Talk page discussion, there's little respect by Varsovian for the normal process of consensus-building and collegiality that is the ethos of our community.
Eventually, User:PTwardowski complains about all this on the talk page here and asks where Varsovian's behaviour should be reported. According to the above mentioned DIGWUREN warning, it should have been reported here at WP:AE.
Varsovian finally explains his rationale as to why he is reverting to keep the data in place, in response to User:PTwardowski here . In fact Varsovian's explanation demonstrates that his additions have been a clear case of WP:NOR. It had baffled other editors because the data was not in the citation, and yet Varsovian presents himself as if he has vindicated himself with the explanation, and moreover that he is the victim: "I would be most grateful if you could kindly refrain from calling me a liar." This is some kind of strange behavioural game, and I recognise a lot of Varsovian's behaviour in the guideline notes at WP:GAME.
Then, as can be seen from the discussion chain User:Loosmark joins in, with a valid question: "What exactly has that number to do with the London Parade?" The question is a fair one: the data is made up, being warred over as well as irrelevant.
Then, something even more concerning can be observed. Having already demonstrated a breach of WP:NOR, Varsovian goes on to reveal that his underlying desire is not to have any data at all: "I personally feel that information regarding size of contribution to WWII have no place at all in an article about the London victory parade" he says. So why the tendentious addition of the 8000 figure if he doesn't really care about it in the first place? It seems that by adding the data, he hopes to use it as a bargaining tool that will lead to all data being removed. Varsovian should communicate his wishes in a straightforward manner, instead of continuing to play games that could be interpreted as WP:TE, WP:DE and possibly even WP:VANDALISM.
The 8000 figure is just the tip of the iceberg.
After the completion of the ANI and the warning on 26th April, I edited the "Political Controversy" section of London Victory Parade of 1946, up until this edit on 27th April. In response to my changes, Varsovian chose not to revert them (which was often his behaviour) but thankfully disputed them on the Talk page instead here .
In his dispute, he alleges I engage in WP:TE, which is precisely what my ANI about him had just been about, and had led to his DIGWUREN warning. I chose not to report Varsovian's allegation against me at WP:AE, despite the severe DIGWUREN deterrent he is under, because I hoped it would all cool down instead.
Around the same time, Varsovian took up his issue about the London Victory Parade of 1946 at the Chopin page here This seems to be an attempt to canvass editors in dispute with alleged Polish nationalists, to gain support at the London Victory Parade of 1946, to my mind in breach of WP:CANVASSING.
There was then an ANI about off-topic incivility at the Chopin talk page here which could probably been reported here at WP:AE instead.
Varsovian's Talk page dispute with my edit of London Victory Parade of 1946 failed to gain any support whatsoever. Between my edit on 27th April until 18th May my edit seems to have proven generally uncontroversial, and in broadly in keeping with consensus. There were edits by other editors, and Varsovian reverted several of them.
Two weeks after my edit and Varsovian's talk page dispute of it, he still hadn't gained even one voice of support, while the edit history indicates that my edit seems to have been largely in keeping with consensus. But Varsovian disregards that, and states he is going to go ahead and apply his desired changes anyway: . User:Loosmark protests, and a very long fight ensues between them on the talk page.
Despite Loosmark's opposition to Varsovian's proposed changes, Varsovian carries on regardless. Early on he attacks me directly in this edit summary , alleging my use of bold text in a block quote is a case of me manipulating the source: "Removing false claim that source emphasizes certain information" he says.
I made a "false claim" by bolding some text within a block quote? A more helpful edit would have been to add "" at the end of the quote, as per WP guidance. Varsovian's incivility was unnecessary, in defiance of the DIGWUREN warning, and seemingly an attempt to provoke my reaction. I didn't react. But a week later, Varsovian is back again, and rips out the entire block quote, including the citation that I had transcribed it from:
All of the above demonstrates Varsovian's unwillingness to learn or to change his ways, and his wilful contempt for the ethos of our community. I am reporting all this in keeping with Administrator guidance at the ANI and the DIGWUREN warning, both linked above. I hereby request enforcement.
I have not recently looked up Varsovian's behaviour elsewhere, other than what is mentioned here, but I have been troubled by Varsovian's edits at other Poland-related articles. I defer to Administrators' judgement, but I am aware that my request is needed here. Given the issue now is less about attempting to improve Varsovian's behaviour, and more about preventing him from damaging Misplaced Pages, I would have to recommend a ban. -Chumchum7 (talk) 01:17, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- Additional note: I have just seen a thread (dated after Varsovian's DIGWUREN warnings) at the Chopin talk page where Varsovian seems to indicate his general, long term axe to grind: where Varsovian says "I'm sure that it will be unacceptable to certain editors (who all just so happen to be of a certain nationality)." The innuendo is unequivocally a generalised pre-judgement about Wikipedians from Poland and a massive breach of WP:INCIVILITY if not WP:NPA. User:Kotniski replies with a comment about the "anti-Polish" gang, when instead he should have said nothing and taken it up here at WP:AE. Varsovian's immediate response: "Could you perhaps refrain from accusing other editors of being racists? Thanks in advance." Later in the Chopin talk page, Varsovian spells out his feelings with a list of Poles who he says many Poles deny are Polish because they don't fit Polish national myth. These denials by Poles might after investigation turn out to be verifiable, but Varsovian's apparent pre-judgement and generalization about Wikipedians from Poland is unacceptable. He goes on to imply Polish nationalism is motivating some Wikipedians here . This is equally as unacceptable as it would be to allege British Nationalism on talk pages. Now, the cause of anti-nationalism is a noble one, but it should not compromise fundamental Misplaced Pages standards. I am saddened that Varsovian is still stuck on the same mission, because much time ago I took the step of expressing my heartfelt concerns here and here . This was an opportunity for Varsovian to see the problem. But Varsovian took offence, and said the latter was an accusation of racism, here and in so doing dismissed my concerns as unreasonable. That was all a long time ago, and Varsovian has had plenty of opportunities to change, but his actions prove that he hasn't. There is a wider policy issue for Misplaced Pages, beyond this case, and I would like to know if it is addressed in WP guidance somewhere. Especially in the WP Eastern Europe topic area, we should be as vigilant about the assumption of nationalism as we are about nationalism itself. The former can be used as sport, to provoke nationalistic responses. Remember that Senator McCarthy fought a noble fight against American communism, and yet he himself was probably the single US citizen most obsessed with American communism. He made his own monsters in order to slay them. History indicates his moral crusade was less than candid. -Chumchum7 (talk) 10:55, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- Precedent: When administrators come to making a decision here, useful points of reference will be the type of sanctions that have already been imposed in the Eastern Europe topic area that should already improve Misplaced Pages by acting as a cautionary deterrent to all editors. Such precedents that I am aware of are the cases of User:Jacurek, User:Loosmark, User:Dr. Dan and User:Piotrus - all of which can be used to inform decision-making here. To my mind, one should make an assessment about to what extent Varsovian's behaviour has been better or worse than these peers in the topic area. That should be considered in addition to my above account of Varsovian's long-term pattern of behaviour, his multiple breaches and warnings, when making an enforcement decision here. -Chumchum7 (talk) 08:39, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
- Further evidence of WP:GAME can be seen on Varsovian's first entry below. He has misleadingly characterized this as a 'content dispute' seemingly between him and myself, without even a passing mention of his breaches that I have listed above; and despite the fact that I have not been engaging with him on articles and talk pages in any dispute for weeks, while I have observed other editors' engagement with him. Secondly, Varsovian identifies 'winning' as something that is even possible in Misplaced Pages: this again demonstrates his WP:GAME tendencies, his attitude that the editing process is about winning and losing rather than building a consensus in a constructive manner. Neither Varsovian, nor any other editor, can win or lose, because Misplaced Pages is not a game but a group effort toward a non-competitive goal. The evidence I have provided demonstrates Varsovian's long-term refusal to accept this fundamental principle of Misplaced Pages. -Chumchum7 (talk) 08:01, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Varsovian
Statement by Varsovian
Please note that I am actually out of the office (and so limited to posting on my iPhone, which makes searching and copy pasting rather tricky) until at least Monday of the week after next, not thursday of next week. However as the last time I explained that to a certain admin, that admin decided to ignor my statement and sanction me anyway (despite giving me one hour from my next edit to provide information he requested), I fully expect to be perma-banned by the time I next log on from my computer. Which means that a certain somebody will have won the content dispute and can write the article exactly how he wants it to be. Varsovian (talk) 16:16, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Varsovian
Result concerning Varsovian
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
Standard header structure added and awaiting statement by Varsovian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). He has indicated on his talk page that he is unable to edit until Thursday, so this request should be held until then or until he edits again. Sandstein 05:04, 29 May 2010 (UTC) (Fake timestamp to prevent archiving: Sandstein 00:01, 3 June 2010 (UTC))
- Sufficient time has now passed for this request to be processed. But in its current state it is too long and argumentative and contains too few relevant diffs. We are not interested in opinions, we are interested in evidence. I propose to close it and recommend that the filer resubmit his concerns in the standard format, that is, focused on the specific diffs of the edits that they consider problematic. Sandstein 09:55, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
Wikifan12345 et al
Lev Reitblat, ChrisO and Wikifan12345 banned from editing Richard Goldstone and associated talk page for 14 days by HJ Mitchell |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Wikifan12345 et alRelated discussions:
This request relates to a biography of Richard Goldstone, a South African judge and leading anti-apartheid figure, who has also headed the UN war crimes tribunals and various UN commissions. He has recently attracted controversy for a report on the Gaza War. On 6 May 2010, the Israeli tabloid newspaper Yedioth Ahrinot (YA), which has been very critical of Goldstone's report, published claims about his record in South Africa that are contradicted by the overwhelming majority of previous sources, are plainly wrong in fact, and that have been rejected by the man himself and by his judicial colleagues in South Africa. A discussion at the reliable sources noticeboard reached no consensus about the suitability of YA as a source and it was widely considered unsuitable to source extraordinary claims. A number of editors have repeatedly sought to edit-war this material into the article and, in addition, add material sourced to WorldNetDaily, unequivocally an unreliable source (per numerous BLP/N discussions); self-published material in violation of WP:BLPSPS; a malicious and defamatory quote comparing Goldstone with the Nazi war criminal Josef Mengele; and a malicious and defamatory quote relating to a fringe individual's attempts to ban Goldstone from entering the US; the latter are violations of BLP's avoidance of biased or malicious content and claims that rely on guilt by association. These issues are discussed in more detail at Talk:Richard Goldstone#Summary of BLP issues. In the subsequent discussion, a substantial majority of editors (including virtually every uninvolved editor) agreed that none of this content should be included. WP:BLP#Restoring deleted content states explicitly that "consensus must be obtained first" (emphasis added) before restoring content deleted due to good-faith BLP objections. This has been ignored repeatedly by Wikifan12345, Lev Reitblat and Juijitsuguy and 98.233.73.108. They have made no attempt to pursue dispute resolution, or in Juijitsuguy's case even to participate on the talk page, but have attempted to bulldoze the content into the article without consensus and over the objections of the majority of editors. In addition, the editors listed above have consistently pursued a hostile approach to other editors and to me in particular. I have done a great deal of work to expand and improve the article using numerous academic works, journals and contemporary news articles (compare before and after). The revised version has been welcomed by most editors, including all the uninvolved ones who have commented. The editors above have responded with a constant stream of denunciations, sarcasm, assumptions of bad faith, personal attacks and unrelenting hostility. Wikifan12345 has been by far the worst in this regard; the following is just a sample:
Wikifan12345 has a long history of disruption and was topic-banned from the entire Israel-Palestine topic area for much of 2009. He has been by far the most disruptive and hostile editor on this article. He is exhibiting exactly the same behaviour that got him topic-banned last year (see and ). This Wikiquette alert from nearly a year ago documents identical problems and this administrator's comment on AN/I from last July perfectly describes his behaviour here: "His editing and use of sources is poor, he reverts constantly, and filibusters on talk pages, making normal editing close to impossible on whatever page he's working on. When thwarted, he reverts to insults." His mentor has recently advised him not to violate civility but he has continued regardless. He's had enough warnings but shows no sign of changing his behaviour. Jiujitsuguy was blocked for wilfully violating a 1RR restriction in force on this article, and was previously blocked for "3RR and endless aggressive edits" in this topic area. Lev Reitblat is a new single-purpose account, created on 14 May 2010, and has edited nothing other than his own talk page and this article. The account looks extremely socky. (Another involved editor, Momma's Little Helper (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), was recently blocked as a sockpuppet of NoCal100. It would not surprise me if this was a reincarnation.) 98.233.73.108 is clearly one of the above editors trying to evade the 1RR limit by editing while logged out. The timing suggests that it is probably Lev Reitblat. Trying to deal with these editors has been an incredibly frustrating experience. I have done my best to answer their queries. Uninvolved editors have attempted to get them to suggest changes to my rewrite of the article, other than merely restoring the removed content. However, it's clear that they reject entirely any BLP or sourcing concerns. They reject out of hand everything that I have added to the article, apparently because it does not fit with their evident hatred of the article's subject. They denounce my rewrite as "fluff" without ever saying what they object to. They falsely accuse me of "eliminating all criticism" despite the fact that I've systematically added it to the article. They are consistently hostile, incivil and tendentious. They disregard BLP's requirements. Several of them have repeatedly restored material removed because of BLP concerns, even though they know there is no consensus to restore it as required by BLP, and in one instance violating a 1RR restriction. These comments of E. Ripley, an uninvolved editor, sums up the situation. This can only be resolved by article- or topic-banning these disruptive editors so that those of us who aren't trying to re-fight the Arab-Israeli conflict on a South African judge's biography can get on with editing peacefully.
Discussion concerning Wikifan12345 et alStatement by Wikifan12345ChrisO has been threatening numerous editors at Goldstone with arbitration for questioning his edits. I really don't like being constantly threatened with sanctions in talk over basic content dispute. I've ceased editing the article for now and have regulated the dispute to talk. I can't gauge the goal of this AE other than removing disputing editors from the article permanently. This has almost become a cliche. Content dispute, arbitration request, arbitration closed, repeat ad nauseum. Why bother? Can't we resolve disputes without banning other editors from the show? Wikifan12345 (talk) 11:12, 29 May 2010 (UTC) edit: I actually decided to read Chris' wikilawyering post in its entirety. I vehemently reject his personal attacks and his attempt to paint me as some rogue editor. I have not been the most vocal editor nor "disruptive." Chris has been extremely hostile and dismissive to me and others, and routinely accuses editors of trying to smear Goldstone and being a part of a witch-hunt to taint his legacy. It's becoming extremely frustrating and the whole process wreaks of fear-mongering. ChrisO came into the article and removed nearly 4 paragraphs worth of information with a very, very weak rationale. Apparently many users supported this, others did not - and since then Chris has been trying to silence users who support edits that may conflict with his own version. This is unacceptable. I might have reservations about the articles' present status but I'm not gonna try and ban editors who don't agree with me. Is this not a serious abuse of the wikipedia process - using AE as a means to censor other users? If ChrisO was genuinely interested in collaborating on Goldstone and gaining a legitimate consensus, he would first go to dispute resolution before trying to ban others. I also don't understand why he has selected me specifically. There is nothing particularly controversial or unique about my statements - several users in talk have the same issues I do. I wasn't the first. Wikifan12345 (talk) 11:24, 29 May 2010 (UTC) Even if we assume the most extreme interpretation, we're dealing with talk-based incivility. As demonstrated by numerous diffs, it seems many other editors in talk could potentially be topic-banned, including you - if we apply your methodology. This whole situation has been exacerbated by constantly relying on enforcement-systems to settle content disputes. I didn't come into the article and unilateral remove paragraphs of information, then send most of the users in talk who disagree with me to AE. Can't we all just get along? Wikifan12345 (talk) 19:45, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Statement by JiujitsuguyReal world obligations have prevented me from responding sooner. My sole contributions to this article were two reverts within 24-hours. I was unaware (my fault for not paying closer attention to my Talk page) of the 1R restriction and received a sanction of a 24-hour block. I have not made an edit to the article since and intend to abide by the 1R restriction.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 02:26, 30 May 2010 (UTC) Statement by Lev Reitblat1RR is the only restriction on the disputed article and I’ve never violated it. WP:BLP is a stronger restriction, if it was applied there were no sense for applying 1RR. So the fact that the only mentioned restriction is 1RR proves that WP:BLP is not a case. It’s a very strange situation when a person gets a notification not to apply a reversion more than 1 time in 24 hours and is send on Arbitration enforcement for exactly 1 reverse per 24 hours Statement by 98.233.73.108Comments by others about the request concerning Wikifan12345 et al
There were mistakes all around and this list could be longer or shorter depending on your tolerance. Chriso might have been overprotective of his edits and some of what Wikifan referred to does happen. He of course should have worded it much nicer since an extra pointed word or two in an edit summary is enough to set editor's off in this topic area (that includes me). Since this is not about Chriso, I'm going to mention my thoughts on Jujitsuguy. It is no secret that I see the good in his edits even though I have seen him hit the revert button when he shouldn't. Since he was already reprimanded on the 27th for his second revert listed here there should be no worries unless he does it again. The talk page could have gone much better. The article is still in desperate need of some reworking to limit WP:RECENTISM and to get some of that sourced criticism (better in a chronological order instead of a separate section) in. Disagree that defamation is a problem overall. Some sources are OK and some aren't. I'm surprised that some of the sources were written off.Cptnono (talk) 10:35, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
ChrisO forgot to mention that an uninvolved admin who protected the page said some of this information should be allowed into the article , but he, as OWNer, refused to allow it. This is obviously a content/WP:OWN dispute. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 11:04, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
I expect that the reception of this request will be colored in part by the fact that it is ChrisO who has made it. I think it would be unfortunate if that sort of concern dominated this discussion. I was headed towards AN/I myself concerning Lev Reitblat, who received good advice re editing BLPs but has showed a rather recalcitrant attitude, on his own talk page and in his article edits. AE might be premature for Jiujitsuguy; the block seems to have gotten his attention. As for Wikifan12345, I think the comments regarding filibustering, insults, and hampering of normal editing are spot on, and it is extremely frustrating to see this kind of persistent behavior. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 11:09, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
At its heart, this is a dispute about the adequacy of sourcing and appropriateness of including very contentious claims on a BLP, which has been made almost intractable by the volume of uncivil accusations and snide personal remarks on the talk page by people on both sides of the argument. My own involvement has been primarily attempting to get people on the "include" side to make a real attempt at engaging in fruitful content discussions, which routinely were ignored in favor of more heated rhetoric. As it currently stands, I believe the question of whether Yediot can be used to source the contentious claims it has made has been resolved as a no. Very contentious claims require very reliable sourcing and Yediot does not qualify; this was made clear with the discussion at the WP:RSN, which at best resulted in no consensus -- to my mind, the level of disagreement exhibited there means Yediot can't be considered a "very reliable source" for this purpose. The BLP guidelines clearly state that when information has been removed as a good-faith BLP violation, which this was, a consensus must be gathered to re-add the information. That consensus has not appeared -- opinions are very clearly split, which means until a stronger consensus to include emerges, we should err on the side of exclusion. In that sense, people who have been edit warring to re-include the disputed information are behaving contrary to policies. To the extent that a content dispute remains, it involves whether it is appropriate to reference the incident that Yediot reported on not by using Yediot as the primary source, but by noting that other outlets that can be considered reliable have mentioned the Yediot story, or mentioned Goldstone's refutation of the accusations, absent any new reporting on their part to try to verify or refute the original claims. There is also no consensus on this topic, with the sides breaking down as before. ChrisO has made some regrettably intemperate remarks and his passion for the subject has at times led him to flirt with some ownership issues. However his position has been one of erring on the side of caution, which I personally believe is appropriate in the absence of a strong consensus, and I believe his intentions are good. Of the group Chris has accused in this request, Wikifan12345 has been the most recalcitrant and sharp-tongued (although I would add, for steaming up the talk page, No More Mr. Nice Guy and before, Momma's Little Helper (since banned as a sock) have done just as much to help derail productive debate). Jiujitsuguy and Lev Reitman have helped exacerbate stability problems on the article through reverting over the past couple of days but as relative newcomers I'm not sure their activities rise to the level of disruption -- particularly on the talk page -- exhibited by others in this group. My own suggestion would be to again query RSN and possibly BLPN to ask whether other uninvolved editors believe it is appropriate to include anything about the flap over Yediot's original claims (including Goldstone's denial), sourced to more reliable sources, or whether the questionable nature of Yediot's reliability, since it so far is the sole source asserting the veracity of the claims, should be enough to keep any specific reference to the claims out entirely. If a strong consensus to include arises, or if opinions are again split, then I think an administrator should enforce the community's decision in either helping to craft something referencing the flap, or to enforce the BLP policy about requiring information removed as a BLP violation to garner a consensus before it is re-included, depending on how the opinion goes. — e. ripley\ 15:06, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
To clarify, my statement to Wikifan on his talk page should not be construed to mean that I believe his behavior is the sole disruptive force in this situation. I am agnostic regarding the behavior of the other involved editors. In my capacity as mentor, I commented solely on Wikifan's behavior, since I have no reason or standing to evaluate the behavior of the other editors in this dispute.--Danger (talk) 16:13, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
In the nature of AE, I think we need to look deeper into ChrisO's role in this issue. There is a serious problem in the pattern of editing he has displayed recently both in relation to the Goldstone article and stemming to the Israeli-Arab conflict in general. Aside from the WP:OWN mentality mentioned above as well as severely hostile and incivil comments to people he disagrees with, there are a few other things that remain unsolved. Since I started seeing ChrisO's name appear in articles that I edit, I have noticed that he is using WP:ARBPIA as a tool of intimidation against editors with whom he is in dispute. He has given the template to a handful of editors recently, all of whom he was heavily involved with. First of all, the template is clear: it is only effective if given by an admin. Second, after drama ensued regarding his giving of these logs contrary to the template, he went ahead and unilaterally changed the wording of the template to remove the requirement for an admin to give it! Since then, an admin has reverted his change, and a conversation has developed on the talk page of ARBPIA concerning whether or not the admin requirement should stand. Through the duration of this conversation, where a majority of editors and admins have commented that it is an important and necessary requirement, ChrisO has continued to use the template as a tool of intimidation, notifying additional editors. Furthermore, he has recently followed another editor to an AfD and voted against him after having another dispute with him. I find it highly unlikely that he randomly found his way to that editors AfD after never having contact with him before. This is just another example of the WP:BATTLE mentality that ChrisO is accusing all these other editors of demonstrating. What's particularly troubling is that ChrisO is no stranger to the Arab-Israel conflict on Misplaced Pages, and has been reprimanded by ARBCOM in the past for his role in I-A issues, along with others, which eventually led to him being desysoped as an admin. However, the behaviour appears to be continuing and something needs to be done to stop it. Taking a voluntary 2 week break from Goldstone will not send the message, I'm afraid. Breein1007 (talk) 17:34, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
I would like to thank ChrisO for his efforts and patience despite the typical provocations, unpleasant behavior and general nonsense that are unfortunately commonplace on the BLP talk pages for people who have criticised the actions of the State of Israel since Operation Cast Lead as part of their professional duties. I also commend his attempts to remind editors that they must comply with the sanctions. Someone said AE is premature for Jiujitsuguy. It isn't. Can someone please have a word with him to make him understand that Misplaced Pages is not a battlefield in the I-P conflict. I find the comments below particularly inappropriate.
I was the one who submitted the SPI against Momma's Little Helper and while in theory I strongly object to being cast as a combatant in I-P conflict for doing so, in reality I couldn't care less. However, what I do object to is the rabble-rousing and general battlefield attitude. That isn't just Jiujitsuguy of course. There isn't a single editor who has advocated inclusion of this material that should be going anywhere near the Goldstone article. The sanctions quite clearly say "Editors who find it difficult to edit a particular article or topic from a neutral point of view and adhere to other Misplaced Pages policies are counseled that they may sometimes need or wish to step away temporarily from that article or subject area." Perhaps it should say "are counseled that they will be topic banned" because people clearly aren't getting the message. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:09, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Additional commentary in response to administrators
Result concerning Wikifan12345 et al
Regarding HJ Mitchell's suggestion, I personally feel it's a bit extreme, but neither is it completely unreasonable. Just to spell things out, if we followed this course of action, it would mean the following:
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Will Beback
Filer blocked indef as an obvious sock. Tim Song (talk) 02:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Will Beback
Discussion concerning Will BebackStatement by Will BebackTwo unblock requests have been reviewed by uninvolved admins, who have both endorsed the block. User talk:Albert Sumlin The block had nothing to do with Prem Rawat or the Natural Law party. Instead, this account was blocked as an obvious sock of user:Herschelkrustofsky, a serial sock puppeteer. See WP:LTA/HK. Even if this user was not a sock, this is not the right way to appeal a block, as he is engaged in block evasion by filing this enforcement request. Will Beback talk 02:03, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Will BebackStatement by NeutralhomerOP is an admitted sock of indef blocked User:Albert Sumlin. Requesting sock be blocked and case against Will Beback be tossed out forthwith. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 02:09, 4 June 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Will Beback
Filer blocked as a sock. Tim Song (talk) 02:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC) |