Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 09:02, 26 January 2006

This template must be substituted. Replace {{Requested move ...}} with {{subst:Requested move ...}}.

Character list

I have listed the characters here, but the voice types in the score I got the characteras from seem a bit odd. For example I doubt that the third lady is actually a soprano (due to the low nature of the role). So, I consolted another score (also German) http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/vaa0618/large/index.html and found the same labels. Perhaps this is a German system that I am not farmiliar with. Either way, I think that they SHOULD be labled the way they are cast in America. Anyone with a good idea of what that would be is welcome to do that.

Also, perhaps the characters should be listed in English with the German in ( ) insted of the way i have done it, as this is a English encyclopedia.

During Mozart's time, the notion of a mezzo-soprano or contralto had not yet developed. All female singers were called sopranos. I will update to typical casting. DrG 21:29, 2005 August 16 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch Captbaritone

Other sites

Does anyone konw of any other sites with analysis of the Magic Flute (Die Zauberflote)

Title

Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions says, "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form." In my experience, English speakers are more likely to speak of "The Magic Flute" than "Die Zauberflöte". Shouldn't the page be at the common English title? (See also Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (use English).)

Unless anyone objects in the next day or so, I think I'll move the page to The Magic Flute. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:32, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Done. I've also taken care of the redirects in the main namespace. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:26, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

You have posted your question on the 13. November 2005, and waited only for 1 day and then moved the page. While it is good that you asked first, I think more time is in order to discuss this serious topic first. Or at least a moving tab with discussion should have been posted. Gryffindor 15:00, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I apologize if my move was premature. I just thought I was being bold and acting in accordance with the naming conventions. Is there a WikiProject that covers this sort of topic, to which we might appeal to find the best solution? Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 01:10, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't expect to have all of you with me on this one, but I for one would rather see a change of the naming conventions. That would, as I see it, be completely in line with how I recognize Misplaced Pages as always being very "correct". By that I mean presenting well thought-through formulations of matters rather than just resigning to lazy traditions. For example, I don't expect Misplaced Pages to use "Rollerblade" when it really intends to say "Inline skate". Bromskloss 20:35, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Another audio example

I'm sad to say that the current audio example (Der Hölle Rache) does not reach very high standards. Having one would still be nice, though. Are there perhaps another one we can use? Bromskloss 21:04, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

WP:Use English as per policy. This would be especially timely, since the Metropolitan Opera broadcast it last week. No, Cosí Fan Tutte should not be moved. :} The Magic Flute, Ingmar Bergman's film, should be moved to TMF(fim) or TMF(Bergman).

Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support Nominator vote. Septentrionalis 06:18, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose - Die Zauberflote is the real name of the opera. Would we also change the names of La Traviata or La Boheme? Should then Luciano Pavorotti be Luke? Consider the opera itself is German, then the title should remain in German. Barneygumble 16:16, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

• Support — the rule is fairly simple: how is the work most widely known to speakers of English? La Boheme is known as La Boheme, not "The Bohemian"; this opera, although occasionally performed in the Anglophone world as Die Zauberflöte, is most widely known as The Magic Flute. That's how the article should be named. See both Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (use English) and Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (common names). —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:11, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

• Support -- In the English-speaking world, this opera seems to be known as The Magic Flute. Atlant 17:13, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

• Reluctant Support -- I consider this an exception because among English speaking people, the opera has better name recognition as The Magic Flute than Die Zauberflöte. There are only a handful of operas like this: Il Barbiere di Siviglia, perhaps. –Shoaler (talk) 20:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

• Support -- Some, believing they advocate consistency, say "all titles should be in the works' original language", but the only way to be consistent is to reflect most-common usage, which is clearly, in this one case "The Magic Flute." Satyadasa 21:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

• Support --Lox (t,c) 22:28, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose this would clash with the current Magic Flute. Gryffindor 01:18, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

  Just to clarify, my support (and I assume other peoples' support) is to also move The Magic Flute to The Magic Flute (film) as suggested in the proposal --Lox (t,c) 12:52, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose Teodorico 12:47, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support following policy and using the much more widely recognized English name. Jonathunder 21:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support - finally persuaded that there are perhaps a dozen popular operas where the English name is significantly more common and we don't have to worry too much about the borderline cases. -- Solipsist 09:02, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Branagh is also doing a film, so disambiguate them now is probably a good idea. Septentrionalis 06:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. In the world of opera an opus is generally called by its original name, because it is almost always the language it is performed in. Performances in English translations (I don't know why) have become uncommon. So the Metropolitan Opera shows "Die Zauberflöte", "Il Barbiere di Siviglia", "Die Entführung aus dem Serail", "La Forza del Destino" etc. If we chose, however, to change it to its English name, this rule should apply to all other foreign operas listed in Misplaced Pages as well. Currently you'll find Götterdämmerung, Der Rosenkavalier, Il Turco in Italia, La Traviata, Orfeo, Il Pastor Fido, Der Freischütz and so on. Those would have to be renamed, too. Teodorico 08:33, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that this is usage. English usage for this opera appears to be strongly The Magic Flute (the Met, which I checked, is an exception; and their broadcast used both). Of the above six operas (and Fledermaus) usage is strongly against translation, except on The Turk in Italy and The Faithful Shepherd (probably because the original sounds so canine in English). And it's not clear enough to move those. Septentrionalis 20:02, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm conflicted on this one. In general I strongly support WP:Use English and this is an opera which is frequently known by its English translation — sufficiently so that I could support the move. However with operas in general, most are known by the title of their original libretto and it is only the most popular ones that become known by their English translation. The problem is what to do on the borderline cases such as Die Fledermaus which is occaisionally performed as The Bat but probably not enough to warrant moving the article to the English title. As such it might be safest to agree to an exception to WP:Use English for operas.

Counter examples might be famous foreign language books (In Search of Lost Time is at its English title) and famous foreign language films (The Battleship Potemkin is at its English title). Ultimately, 'What links here' should be your guide and it is clear from Whatlinkshere/The_Magic_Flute that several people are actually trying to link to the opera. Whatever happens, the Bergman film should be moved to The Magic Flute (film) (or The Magic Flute (film 1975) since it looks like another film by Kenneth Branagh is due this year) and The Magic Flute should become/redirect-to the opera. -- Solipsist 12:45, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I do recognize the appeal of having a standard of "accuracy" to avoid tedious case-by-case arguments, but I feel that this particular case is fairly strong. In addition to the "What links here" test Solipsist mentions, an English-language Google search for "The Magic Flute" gives 592,000 results; an English-language search for "Die Zauberflote" gives only 473,000. (I deliberately omitted the umlaut, since this includes both entries with and without it in the search; if one searches for "Die Zauberflöte", there are only 194,000 results.) Most other operas are best known in the Anglophone world in their original titles, so there would be no need to move La Traviata or Der Rosenkavalier.

However, this opera is referred to as "The Magic Flute" in sources as widespread as the letters of Cole Porter and an episode of Red Dwarf (which, by a staggering coincidence, I happened to watch just last night). Misplaced Pages's policy favors common usage over accuracy in article naming — this does not mean that the article should be inaccurate, but that we should work to increase the probability that a casual user searching for a subject will find the article he or she is looking for without having to go through a redirect or disambiguation. I think the opera should be at The Magic Flute, with a disambiguation page (The Magic Flute (disambiguation) pointing readers to the Bergman film at The Magic Flute (1975 film) and the Branagh film at The Magic Flute (2006 film). —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:47, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I regret that a straw man may be seen in this discussion. I said I didn't want to move Cosí Fan Tutte. I don't want to move La Traviata or La Bohême either. Septentrionalis 20:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I hope you are not referring to me with your remark about "the straw man", Septentrionalis. If you feel that way, I am very sorry, but I was just trying to make a point with La Traviata by applying the same standard. And if the Met does, I thought I was in good company. But if the others agree with you, that’s perfectly fine with me. You called for a discussion, I made my point. Teodorico 15:04, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but your point appears to be based on an inaccurate understanding of what's being proposed. Just to clarify, the standard being suggested is not "put all opera articles under English names", but "put operas which are most widely known in the Anglophone world under English names under English names". "La Traviata" is irrelevant. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:33, 25 January 2006 (UTC)