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I see that I have gained especial attention ("another of Nicky's overly-verbose additions"), and now you have purged a pile of stuff from the Interpolation_search article that lacked attribution to approved sources. Had you sought suitable sources? Even though this would require effort on your part, for instance by retaining parts for which you had found sources. Presumably, your high-level contributions will be applied impartially to other effusions of mine, as well of course to other persons. I had been contemplating reporting an actual comparison of the methods "linear", "binary" and "interpolation" on the same data file (coordinates of Arapawa Island, as it happens), but this would clearly be "original research" and so I hadn't bothered, even though examples are helpful towards comprehension. NickyMcLean (talk) 04:11, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, my edit summary was a reference to the fact that on at least a few articles that I've stumbled across (e.g. Self-modifying code, Binary search algorithm, For loop), the wordiest parts seem to be attributable to your edits. You of course know that phrasing such as that removed in my first edit is inappropriate for an encyclopaedia article. You are also of course aware that the original-research policy doesn't allow one to run a bunch of one's own experiments and then write what amounts to an essay on the results with no independent sourcing.

If sources for this material are really as easy to find as you imply above, then please feel free to add them yourself! I have no objection to this sort of content if it can be (a) sourced, and (b) written and structured appropriately. Oli Filth 09:07, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

"The generative fixation hypothesis" is back

I see you removed it here . It has been added back here: Theory_of_genetic_algorithms. I'm mostly motivated by organizational issues and am concerned that the text for "The building block hypothesis" is copied en masse. But, I'm not really sure what to do with this other section about "The generative fixation hypothesis," since it seemed to be in dispute. What do you think? One simple option might be to just redirect Theory_of_genetic_algorithms back to Genetic algorithms. thanks, ErikHaugen (talk) 14:00, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I've indeed created the redirect for now. If there's scope for Theory of genetic algorithms to have a raison-d'etre, and to contain material other than simple copy-and-paste, then perhaps it should be recreated. But not in its current state! Oli Filth 14:30, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Exactly what I was thinking. Thanks, ErikHaugen (talk) 14:31, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

FYI, it's now been recreated; see the argument at Talk:Theory of genetic algorithms. Oli Filth 14:56, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

About the GFH

Dear Oli, I see that you've removed my recent edits to the genetic algorithms article on the grounds that it is "self promotion"? I'd like to get a sense for what you mean by this. Is it automatically "self promotion" when an author writes about his published work on Misplaced Pages? The generative fixation hypothesis is one of just two non-folk-hypotheses about the adaptive capacity of genetic algorithms (the other being the building block hypothesis). There is indeed a large body of "theory" about genetic algorithms; but, this work is best understood as "theoretical approaches to genetic algorithms"; apart from work related to the BBH and the GFH, none of it has, to date, produced a plausible explanation for the adaptive capacity of genetic algorithms. Another question: Eric Haugen writes above that the generative fixation hypothesis is in dispute. What are his sources? Keki Burjorjee (talk) 16:47, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

In general, editors who cite themselves (in particular, in cases of very new publications) are doing it purely as self-promotion. If that was not your intention, then I apologise for jumping to conclusions, but it's a very common pattern here at Misplaced Pages. If your work is notable (I have no idea; I don't claim to be anything close to a subject expert), then I'd prefer to see it referenced by other editors, because otherwise it raises questions of conflict of interest. I'd also prefer to see evidence of wider notability (i.e. has the notion of "generative fixation hypothesis" been picked up by others in the field? have your papers been cited?, etc.) Oli Filth 16:53, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I understand your reservations. I believe that the generative fixation hypothesis is notable by virtue of being one of only two published, peer-reviewed non-folk explanations for the the adaptive capacity of genetic algorithms. It is also the only published, peer-reviewed explanation for the adaptive capacity of simple genetic algorithms with uniform crossover. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keki Burjorjee (talk • contribs) 17:21, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

It would be nice to have this conversation somewhere else. Anyway, I disagree that it's notable because there are only 2 theories. It's notable when other reliable sources refer to it, etc. To be clear, I am not weighing in on whether it is notable; I am just discussing the criteria. ErikHaugen (talk) 17:32, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Erik, that's certainly one criterion. But is it the only one? When evaluating the notability of a new, published, peer-reviewed theory, I believe that some additional points should also be taken into consideration---especially in a proto-scientific field like genetic algorithmics: i) the degree to which the new theory diverges from the prevailing theory, and ii) the potential impact on a field if the new theory turns out to hold water. Scientists sometimes take time to digest fundamentally new ideas. So, a new theory might not be cited immediately after its publication. Does that automatically make the new theory non-notable? The Generative Fixation Hypothesis is the first theory since the 1970s to give the building block hypothesis a run for its money. And, as I've previously mentioned, it is the only plausible explanation that has ever been proposed for the adaptive capacity of genetic algorithms with uniform crossover. I believe that removing all mention of this hypothesis from the genetic algorithm article does curious, seeking readers a disservice. Keki Burjorjee (talk) 04:58, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Please see WP:NOTABILITY for the Misplaced Pages policy on notability. We can't just invent new criteria for protoscience. If this theory does have an impact on the field at some point in the future, then it will be cited, and then it will fulfil the criteria for notability. Until then, there's no need to mention it in the article. Doing otherwise really would be doing readers a disservice, because it would give a false impression of the notability of a particularly nascent school of thought. Please see WP:UNDUE. Oli Filth 08:17, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I concede that my most recent edits may (kinda sorta) give the impression that the GFH is "equal" to the BBH in terms of adoption. Giving readers this impression was not my intention. I sought only to inform readers that there is an alternative to the BBH (a theory whose failings are well known), and to give a brief overview of the GFH. Nevertheless, I can see why you might view these changes as "overreaching". Would you be okay with rolling the article back to the point before my most recent edits? Another option is to let my edits stand, and to add a banner to the section on the GFH that cautions readers that the section contains material that may violate WP:NOTABILITY and WP:UNDUE. Keki Burjorjee (talk) 16:38, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, the latter is certainly not an option! And to be honest, I'm not particularly keen on the former idea either. As far as I'm aware, your theories were published a little over 6 months ago, and have not yet been cited or discussed by any independent authors. The fact that you had to add them to Misplaced Pages yourself is indicative that they have not reached even the lowest rung of notability yet. This is not meant to be a criticism or a putdown; I'm merely pointing out that with the available evidence, there is no compelling reason to mention your theories at Genetic algorithm yet.

I would suggest that if you wish to continue to debate the issue, then bring it up at Talk:Genetic algorithm, so that a wider array of editors may air their opinions. Oli Filth 17:32, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Six months eh? If only scientists were that reliable ;-)

I think you forget that you and Erik aren't the only policemen on this beat. There are others with domain knowledge greater than yours who would have removed, or contested my statements, and the reference to my dissertation if these were indeed unhelpful, or misleading. (My statements are provocative enough, and so is my dissertation) That neither have been removed, or contested for months should tell you something. In any case, I've raised the issue on the Talk:Genetic algorithm page as you suggested. I don't know how many people actually read that page without being prompted. Is there a formal procedure for getting some third party attention? Keki Burjorjee (talk) 06:39, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, see WP:3. However, it says "If more than two editors are involved, 3O is not appropriate." So I suggest you read through WP:DISPUTE to find a different approach.

By the way, don't be so sure that "no-one removed my edits" == "my edits were fine"! All sorts of inappropriate material (nonsense, vandalism, self-promotion, etc.) sneaks its way into Misplaced Pages articles all the time, and often sits around for months or years before anyone notices. The people that read the talk page are typically the people that "police" the corresponding article page, so if your guess that perhaps no-one will read that talk page without prompting is correct, that could also explain why some of your edits stuck around for a while. Oli Filth 08:48, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure about that? I've done some deleting on Genetic algorithm myself (not enough, unfortunately), and can't say I've spent much time on the talk page. Thanks for the links. Keki Burjorjee (talk) 03:49, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I did some digging. It turns out that your application of WP:Notability is incorrect. The nutshell box at the top of that page says "Notability does not directly affect the content of articles, but only their existence". I am not trying to set up a wikipedia page devoted to the generative fixation hypothesis; so, WP:Notability does not apply. It also turns out that a Ph.D. dissertation available on UMI (mine is) is considered a reliable source because it has been vetted by a committee of scholars. See the subsection on Scholarship in . Up next, Conflict Of Interest. On Talk:Genetic algorithm you write "This was added as a COI edit; linking to one's own PhD thesis almost never acceptable!". You assume, in other words, that writing about one's own work is almost-by-definition a COI edit. The following sentence from Misplaced Pages:No_original_research#Citing_oneself says otherwise: "If an editor has published the results of his or her research in a reliable publication, the editor may cite that source while writing in the third person and complying with our neutrality policy". As mentioned previously, Ph.D. dissertations available on UMI count as reliable publications, and I do believe that I've abided by Misplaced Pages's neutrality policy. As mentioned previously, I agree that my most recent edits fall short with respect to WP:UNDUE. I'll figure out how to handle this better. In the meantime, I'd like to roll the section on the building block hypothesis back to its state in the following revision . Any objections? Keki Burjorjee (talk) 07:06, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

In response:

• You are correct about WP:N; however the criteria it sets out are, in practice, typically used as a benchmark for article content as well. If we didn't do this, it would be a free-for-all of people adding mentions to all sorts of non-notable research.
• I never claimed that it wasn't a reliable source!
• There's a difference between citing your own work to back up existing article content, and adding a section to an article about your own work. This is a case of the latter, and that is a conflict-of-interest. With respect, the fact that you are now fighting tooth-and-nail to get this reinstated is a further indication of COI.
• As I've already said, unless you get some kind of consensus (basically at the thread you've set up at Talk:Genetic algorithm), there's no justification for adding this material back. If your work is truly worth mentioning at the moment, then let another editor bring it to the article (that's the spirit of WP:COI). Oli Filth 08:39, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

In response to your first point: You can't have it both ways Oli. Either we are both bound by Misplaced Pages's written policy, or neither one of us is. Whether or not there would indeed be a free-for-all is beyond the scope of the present discussion. If you feel that the spirit of WP:N does not match what's written in that article, you should take your complaint to its talk page. In my opinion, the sentence "Notability does not directly affect the content of articles, but only their existence" was given pride of place for a reason.

With respect to your third point:

• Since when is engaging in a civil discussion, even a long one, an indication of misconduct? Aren't discussions like this supposed to make Misplaced Pages better? Your assumption that I've engaged with you here in bad faith is rather cynical. I'm actually enjoying this, and have learned quite a bit about Misplaced Pages and its policies.
• If you follow the link I provided previously (), you'll see that in the revision I want to revert to, the generative fixation hypothesis does not have its own section, and is mentioned in the Criticism of the Building Block Hypothesis subsection.
• I misstated my objection to your sentence "This was added as a COI edit; linking to one's own PhD thesis almost never acceptable!". What I should have said is that an edit that violates WP:COI, while fraught, is not in and of itself bad. While the WP:COI article discourages conflict of interest editing, it does not forbid such edits, even at the article level: "Conflict of interest is not a reason to delete an article, though other problems with the article arising from a conflict of interest may be valid criteria for deletion." Misplaced Pages:COI#How_to_handle_conflicts_of_interest. This same section also has the following to say to editors dealing with conflict of interest edits: "Assuming good faith, start from the idea that the contributor was genuinely trying to help increase Misplaced Pages's coverage".

As far as I can see, the only rationale for barring me from mentioning my work is if you know that an impartial domain expert writing from a neutral point of view would not mention my work. Note: the domain expert is under no obligation to mention only work that has been cited. Since, by your own admission, you are not a domain expert, you aren't in a position to make this call.

So, I ask again, I'd like to roll the section on the building block hypothesis back to its state in the following revision . Do you object? Keki Burjorjee (talk) 08:39, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not about "having it both ways". "Notability" is not only a Misplaced Pages policy, but also a guideline that governs decisions about what's appropriate article content (along with common-sense, etc.). You're absolutely right when you state further down that "an impartial domain expert ... would not mention my work", at least in the context of this Misplaced Pages article, and at least in the context of today. That is because all content must be justified, and I'll say it again, there's no reasonable justification for mentioning a theory with no credence or acceptance in the field. Your theory is not even in the position where, for instance, it's been studied and rejected as invalid (even then it might be worth mentioning), it simply hasn't gained any exposure at all. Per WP:UNDUE and so on, Misplaced Pages should reflect this level of external coverage, i.e. none.

With respect to COI, please note that I'm not accusing you of bad faith; I'm suggesting that you're giving your own work undue importance. Why does your PhD merit mention in Misplaced Pages above the all the other hundreds or thousands that get written every year on the subject of genetic algorithms? If all we have to go on is your opinion that "this is the only plausible explanation for the capacity of genetic algorithms" (to paraphrase), then that's not good enough I'm afraid. That's where coverage by independent reliable sources would have helped.

So in summary, yes I would strongly object to rolling back, and I'd wager that if you started a request for comment, you'd get the same response from anyone else. In one sense, I suggest you do file a RfC if you want to carry this forward, because you aren't going to persuade me, and I guess you aren't going to persaude Erik either (not sure if he's following this or not). Oli Filth 09:03, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Oli, your latest comments suggest that you are not just, as you put it, nowhere close to being an expert on genetic algorithms, you actually have little, if any, knowledge about the field. If you read my edits (and what I've repeated at different points in our conversation) you'll see that I've never said that the "generative fixation hypothesis is the only plausible explanation for the capacity of genetic algorithms". What I've said is that the generative fixation hypothesis is, *to date*, the only plausible explanation for the adaptive capacity of genetic algorithms *with uniform crossover*. Do you understand the difference between the general class of genetic algorithms and the specific class of genetic algorithms with uniform crossover (UGAs)? Do you know that UGAs frequently outperform genetic algorithms with one point crossover, even though according to the building block hypothesis they shouldn't? Are you aware that since 1989, when the utility of uniform crossover was first highlighted, there has been no serious attempt to provide an explanation for the adaptive capacity of GAs that use this form of crossover, much less explain why they outperform GAs with one-point crossover? Do you know how deeply the Building Block Hypothesis, despite its shortcomings, continues to influence contemporary research in evolutionary computation? Do you understand the repercussions of any new theory that lays the building block hypothesis to rest? Can you appreciate why such a theory might not get cited immediately? Do you care to educate yourself about "details" such as these?