Misplaced Pages

That's just from a somewhat sleepy early-morning examination of things. — WCityMike 11:56, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Comment restored from earlier deletion by Brian0918: Brian0918 seems to have taken strong offense to my comments. These weren't "accusations," and you need not take it so damn friggin' personally. — WCityMike 11:56, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and by the way, thanks for banning the IP I was using and calling me an imposter because I forgot to login. Drunk with power much? — WCityMike 03:11, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't realize it was you. The IP was different from the one listed on your user page as being your edits, and the signature was simply copied from a previous post of yours. That IP has been unblocked. Also, please don't delete discussions. If you would like to retract your own comments, you can cross them out with <s> ... </s>. --brian0918&#153; 03:27, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Section entitled "Criticism of chiropractic claims"

Regarding "However, at least some of this criticism may stem from anti-chiropractic prejudice encouraged by the American Medical Association during the 1970's and early 1980's.": I think the phrase "anti-chiropractic prejudice" is a prejudicial statement and should be changed, but a link to Wilk v. American Medical Association is probably warranted. Thoughts? Edwardian 05:47, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

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Regarding "The National Council Against Health Fraud, non-profit healthcare organization, issued a report in 1985 critical of chiropractic medicine.": I looked up NCAHF and found that one of their founders, and current webmaster, is Dr. Barrett of Quackwatch, so it should come as no surprise that they are critical of chiropractic. Although I agree with nearly everything I've read in Quackwatch, I would hate to see this become a mirror site of it. In my opinion, the article should focus on the specific criticism of chiropractic rather than who issued critical reports of chiropractic. Can someone support why they think this statement should stay? Edwardian 06:10, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Section entitled "Medical risks of spinal manipulation"

This article is primarily about chiropractic, and not the medical risks of spinal manipulation, therefore, the majority of this section would be better suited in the latter. I believe the main reason it is cited here is to indicate criticism of chiropractic, but it doesn't state that explicitly. I may have a go at it. Edwardian 06:41, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Since chiropractic neck manipulation is known to cause stroke, and has no documented benefit, the risk (however small) vastly exceeds the benefit. This should be made clear. JM

Excuse me... there is ONE documented stroke triggered, but not neccesarily caused by chiropractic. To claim there is no documented benefit implies to me that no matter how many patients relate the fact that chiropractic has worked for them, you toss this evidence out due to some unknown personal bias. So don't say there is no evidence; there is overwhelming, if anecdotal, evidence that chiropractic works, not the least of which is the widespread success and recognition of the profession.

Lots of Vitriol, no Science

Scientists love to bash chiropractics. They regularly dredge up stories of Palmer's attachment to Mesmerism.

Personally, I consider "alignment" a hoax, but the release of nitrogen bubbles from joints may have some positive effect. I crack my knuckles all the time, because it feels good.

Like almost all of medicine, the debate here centers around personal anecdotes. Have there been clinical trials that try to guage the efficacy of chiropractics?

High quality clinical trials are lacking. Those that exist show no value for chiropractic except: There is reason to think that low-back pain of short (3 day to 4 week) duration can benefit from one (at most two) chiropractic "adjustments." The benefit is comparable to that obtained from a massage. Note that a masseur does not charge as much or expect to be called doctor. JM

Section entitled "Rejection of the classical chiropractic theory"

This section is a LONG quote from NACM ]. Although I think NACM is important to mention as they do enjoy some mainstream acceptance, I think the insertion of long quotes is a lazy way to develop a Wiki article. I wanted to give a "heads up" that I may make some larger changes to this section. Edwardian 06:26, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

If you wrote an article on the Cardiff Giant, it would focus on the hoax. If you study anatomy and physiology, you will be able to understand that "classical chiropractic theory" has been thoroughly debunked. This is a fact (like the Earth circles the Sun), not an opinion.

The only reason this absurd practice continues is that, when it was demonstrated that the classic subluxation (a dislocated spinal joint) does not occurr, the chiropractors re-defined it rather than folding their tents or becoming real doctors. The current, vague description of subluxation could be shortened to "whatever we charge people for fixing." JM

Please cite some sources. Your previous charge that a masseuse does the same thing but charges less is arbitrary and unfounded. I have recently visited a chiropractor who charges $10 per visit ($5 with Alberta Health Care coverage) and will provide free x-rays and analysis. What is "classical chiropractic theory" and how was it debunked? Show me how subluxations do not occur, please. I have had more than my fair share of them, and they're not exactly hard to spot. Even a layman can feel the misalignment most of the time (often as an awkward protrusion,) and quite recently, I saw my own x-ray showing two vertebrae in my neck touching each other, causing a painful grinding that disabled me for over a week. After a single chiropractic visit, this was corrected. Can you explain this? Was it some form of faith healing? Did the chiropractor manipulate the photos to make it appear that I had an ailment exactly corresponding to what I felt? JM, I think you have a personal hatred of chiropractors, no doubt caused by a run-in with one of the many quacks in the field. (I can certainly agree that there is inadequate regulation of the practice, but there are also many good practicioners, who rely only on sound theory, and in my experience, charge from $5 to $15 Cdn per visit.) All I can say is that having a bad experience does not qualify you as an expert on the subject. - Fuchikoma

Title references in opening

In the opening of the article, it is stated that "They receive the degree Doctor of Chiropractic, (D.C.) and are commonly called doctor in the same way that a dentist is called a doctor." When an individual, like myself, is attempting to get basic introductory information on the topic, the above statement is almost information-free. In what way IS a dentist called a doctor? At bare minimum, the word dentist should be wikified, if that article includes an explanation of this, but I really think that, whatever point is struggling to be made in that sentence, it could be made better. I'll add this page to my watchlist as I continue to educate myself, as I get the feeling that this article is one of those "battleground" articles where quality is taking a back seat to combativeness. Fox1 20:32, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is. I can't answer your specific question, but I have watchlisted this because anon POV gets inserted in this just about every day. I don't know much about the subject, but most of the POV is pretty obvious. (ie, deleting the entire criticisms section, etc.) Dmcdevit·t 22:36, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

My experiences with chiropractors, naprapaths and osteopaths

When I was 15 years old my back and neck was in such a bad condition that the total amount of movement I could do was to "turn" my nose about 2 cm / 1 inch in each direction relative to my hips. That is, my back and neck was more or less locked. I could not look down on my own stomach etc. And I was in constant pain.

The medical doctors at our local hospital considered my back so bad that they offered me a full "surgical stiffening" of my back and neck. That is, to surgically attach/implant a metal rod to my spine and neck to stop it from moving and thus at least stop it from getting worse. However since that would not make me well, just prevent me from getting worse I declined the offer and decided to try the alternatives.

After about 15 treatments by a naprapath (similar to a chiropractor) my back was more or less fully healthy. Since then I have lived a normal life and one of my hobbies is actually to dance the jitterbug! (I am now 36 years old.) Occasionally I do get some "lockups" in my back so about once every 1-2 years I visit my naprapth for some "maintenance". (Usually takes 1-2 treatments to get my back in order again.)

Almost every time I get a new medical doctor (well, I have some other problems too) they read my medical history and then wonder how my back and neck is nowadays? When I tell them I nowadays am ok and dance the jitterbug they usually are stunned.

Anyway, here's what I know about chiropractors, naprapaths and osteopaths:

Occasionally when it has been time for my "back maintenance" my naprapath has been on vacation. So then I have tried other naprapaths, chiropractors and osteopaths. It seems to me they all use the same or similar techniques when doing spinal adjustments. (Basically they pull, twist, turn, bend and press to make your vertebras pop into place again.) What differ are the techniques they use to treat the muscles and other tissues on the back and neck. The chiropractors seem to mainly use massage (using their hands) to treat the muscles. The osteopaths use massage and something that at least to me resembles acupressure, that is they press special points on the body. The naprapaths use massage, ultrasound massage devices and electrical massage/training. (They strap electrodes on you and stimulate your muscles. Rather nice actually, a tingling feeling.) Personally I find the naprapaths best at treating muscles. Ultrasound and electrical stimulation does wonders at least on me. Note that I live in Sweden, Europe, and I have read that osteopath training differs a lot in different countries. But naprapaths and chiropractors are supposed to be more "standardised".

If/when you go to a chiropractor the first time you might be shocked that your back might actually hurt more after the treatment then before. But if you "listen" to the pain you will notice it is another kind of pain. Instead of pain from the spine you just have muscle pain like when you have done over stretching of a muscle. And that is exactly what it is. There are several reasons for this. First reason is that since you were in bad shape before, your muscles might have been a bit stiff and during the spinal adjustment (the pull, twist and turn etc) your muscles might get a little damage. The other reason is that suddenly your back is straight again, and your muscles are not used to that. (The muscles on one side might be to short and on the other too long since the spine has been crooked for so long.) That kind of muscle pain usually disappears in a day or two as the muscles heal and adjust to your "new" spine. Usually on the second or third treatment your chiropractor will instead mainly treat your muscles (since now your spine should be pretty ok). And that is nice! After that treatment you feel soooo good!

Note that chiropractic, naprapathy and osteopathy are more or less art forms. It is done by hand. Which means some practitioners are good but some are pretty bad. Personally I prefer naprapaths since the ultrasound massage and the electrical treatment works so well on my muscles. But a good chiropractor is much better then a bad naprapath, so mostly it is down to the individual skill of the practitioner.

--David Göthberg 09:15, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Excellent. Although it's anecdotal evidence, I'd say we don't even have much of that on the Wiki, and could do with some more as it provides SOME information. To wit, I'll chip in my own. It's written a bit defensively, but it was originally part of an argument against RK's unsubstantiated attacks. Overall, David, I've found your expeience with naprapathy matches my own experience with chiropractic.

I have personally gone for treatment at five local chiropractors, and admittedly, one of them was into new age pseudoscientific cures such as colored lens therapy, and measuring the body's reaction to proximity to different tinctures... I will keep this as unlibelous as possible and say that in my own limited experience, he was a quack. The other four were quite competent, with varying degrees of success in my particular case, and have the following things in common: - All of them warn upfront about the possible risk of harm from adjustments in no uncertain terms, and require a waiver on the first visit. In fact, in the face of statistics about chiropractic injury, they make it sound worse than it is, and are certainly not glossing over the risks. - Any would perform adjustments on children, but sparingly, and with caution. Quite simply though, there are times when chiropractic care is NEEDED, regardless of age. - They all believe that subluxations CAN CAUSE other symptoms, and I speak from personal experience that they certainly can. If you pinch a nerve in your back, you may feel pain through any part of your body. (Personally, I find my lungs, arms, head, and legs are most common. Having a lung nerve pinched by a wayward rib is NOT fun.) NONE OF THEM claim that all disease of the body is caused by subluxations. - None of them will adjust with great frequency, allowing usually at least a week or two between sessions with the exception of emergencies. They simply will not take the money for additional sessions, as they believe the body should not be too rigorously adjusted in a short time frame.

I started seeing chiropractors as an adolescent, when a subluxation in my neck caused crippling headaches, and pain and stiffness in my arms to the point where I could not use them. I paid (or would have paid if not for Canadian health care,) about $10, and ten minutes later, a painless adjustment had cured me. It is rare now, but periodically I suffer from lesser painful spinal subluxations, and it is rare that one or two visits cannot return me to health. I have no qualms about visiting the chiropractor when this happens, as it is fast, cheap, painless, and very effective. I think you'll find anyone else who has been in a similar situation will tell you the same. But then again, until they have chiropractic MDs in hospitals (wait, don't they?) it will just be anecdotal, despite being obvious to anyone who's been to one for similar treatments. This isn't a "power of the mind" effect; it is an obvious displacement of the vertebrae, causing very tangible and real dysfunction. For this, a skilled chiropractor can reverse the misalignment, remove pain, and restore proper function with very little time or effort, provided the problem has not been left to worsen. (My father was in a car accident as a young man, and the severity of the subluxation, along with lack of care, has permanently damaged his spine, grinding through the cushioning tissues. It has since been straightened, but while the damage has stopped, it has gone too far to reverse.)

While this is worth little, I will at least cite sources for the chiropractors I know, unlike RK. One doctor, Lyle Whitney has retired. One is a quack and gets no specific mention. The others are doctors Wilf Foord, Donald Pedersen, and Lyle Smith of Red Deer, Alberta, Canada. If you dig a little, you'll find they are all real people, and my statements regarding them are factual. Please do not call them to pester for article information though, as they are busy people. On the other hand, while I don't check this page often, I can ask specific questions for a restored version of the main article.

--User:fuchikoma Nov. 26, 2005

My whole family has used chiropractic for many years. I, myself, remember seeing chiropractic techniques being applied to someone as early as 5 years old (I am currently 30).

My first personal experiences were when I was in elementary school, grade 5 if I remember correctly. I had jumped from the top of a snowbank and had expected there to be a soft landing under my feet and unfortunately, it was powder snow on pavement. I was taken to a chiropractor for lower back problems for a year with little improvement. At this point, my parents decided to try a different chiropractor and she was much better as results seemed to be more appearent.

As time went on, she decided to do some x-rays of my pelvis and lower back and discovered that when standing straight, my pelvis was out of level by a few millimeters. About a year of 3 to 6 week spaced treatments, the alignment issue was fixed. To date, I have had VERY few lower back issues.

I used to be very sports active and I managed to do serious damage to my right knee. By the time this damage was realized, we were now in a new city and had to find a new chiropractor. The one we tried, was convinced that her skills could fix my knee. Long story short, not so. I ended up at a sports injury specialist in 1994 and had arthroscopic surgery to repair the meniscus.

In 2000, I threw my back out lifting a 21" monitor. So badly, that I could not even stand up to walk up or down a set of stairs. It happened on a Thursday and became fully inflaimed by Sunday. I went to a chiropractor (A new one again that I was already experienced with that I liked) and 3 days later I was driving myself to work. 2 months later and I was running a chainsaw and clearing 50-100 year old forest off my newly bought land. Then later that summer I built my house.

Now, my wife has always been skeptical of chiropractic as she was trained to be a mainstream medical professional. After 3 years of headaches, I was able to convince her to go. After that one visit, it was months before she had another headache and they came back right after a nasty ride on a rollercoaster at Canada's Wonderland. Another visit when we got back home and all was well for many many months. As time has gone on, it has basically worked out to one visit every 3-4 months and she hardly ever gets the same kinds of headaches that she did before seeing a chiropractor.

In short, it just goes to show that there is anecdotal evidence from people and examples of non-addressable issues from the same people. Not to mention endorsements from once skeptical people that have tried it out.

--User:Jokerofdeath Nov. 29, 2005

most people who try alternative therapies do not have especially serious conditions; if most of them get no success, you're not going to hear anything, so a few anecdotal reports won't suffice.

in my case i had a serious and progressive pain disorder (and i still have it, but it's now under control). i went to various types of alternative medicine after various conventional doctors didn't seem to know what was going on. none of the alternative medicine practitioners helped, and unlike the md.s, most were happy to keep seeing me (and getting money) time after time. (at least the chiropractor gave up after 6 weeks of 3x/week sessions and said he couldn't help me.) the one thing these guys all had in common was total opposition to the one modality that finally helped me, which was strong pain medications.

71.145.201.221 01:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Taking strong pain medication is fine so long as you recognize that the pain is just a symptom of a greater problem. In effect, the medication is like putting a piece of electrical tape over your car's oil lamp when it is flashing. The flashing was bothering you so you cover it up. But there is a greater problem that you are not dealing with and later on down the road it will catch up to you. I urge you to keep searching for a health practitioner that will help you. Chiropractors never (or should never) claim to fix everything. Only the body is capable of healing itself. A chiropractor's job is aligning the vertebrae which has been linked to promote health, allowing optimal message flow to and from the brain via the nervous system. If it isn't working for you, then by all means seek another solution. I think 6 weeks of 3x per week was a good trial run for you with chiropractic. Now try another solution. Don't rely just on meds to mask the pain. Get to the core of the problem and fix it. Additionally, recognize that every medication has side effects. Most pain releivers will do a number on your liver or other organs if you take them over great periods of time. Again, I urge to find the core of your problem and not to rely solely on meds. Levine2112 01:26, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The problem is the lack of peer reviewed evidence supporting chiropractic

As soon as the the supporters of chiropractic want to cite peer-reviewed studies supporting their claims--studies in reputable journals that meet the same criteria for validity that the sciences require in their studies--the sooner this mess can be resolved. Until then, the claims made by the supporters of chiropractic are no better than those made by supporters of magnetic healing or Scientology.

Indeed, I note that the vast dump of references put in the usage paragraph are all case studies. None of them are double-blind studies nor population based and further the vast majority of them are published in chiropractic journals - not generally accepted medical journals such as the BMj. Homeopaths are really good at promoting their research in homeopathic journals, but for some reason can't get into any mainstream peer reviewed journals. I wonder why not? A big scientific conspiracy to stop good science being published? Or is the science simply poor or lacking. Maustrauser 04:26, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Is PubMed not a generally accepted journal? Is JVSR not a peer-reviewed scientific journal? And Elsevier, is it not gloabally the most respected collection of science, technology and medicine full text and bibliographic information? I made sure to vary the sources to show that these studies are not coming from just any one organization with a specific agenda. These are legitimate scientific studies from various disciplines of independent researchers from around the globe. Levine2112 06:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

You are obviously not aware that anybody can go to Elsevier and set up a journal. All Elsevier asks to publish a journal is your money. A colleague of mine who is a CEO of a medical profession has just made a deal with Elsevier to publish its journal. It costs $18,000 a year. Elsevier made no inquiries regarding the science in the journal, simply that the association was willing to pay. When I have time I shall look at the publishing policies of the other journals you mention. You claim they are legitimate studies reported. They may or may not be legitimate case studies, but that's all they are - case studies. Case studies are generally no more useful than anecdotal evidence. Show me the double blind population based studies and then I may consider that chiropractic is more than a fringe exercise in removing money from people's pockets — oh and showing me the physical evidence for a subluxion might help too . Maustrauser 07:02, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I look forward to you letting us know about the publishing policies of the other journals. The case studies certainly support the claim, but certainly more research is always needed. That's the wonderful thing about science. Knowledge is always expanding and growing. What was once considered quackery is now science. What was once considered heresy is now the gospel. I can point to dozens and dozens of other case studies and scientific research on the Internet supporting more chiropractic claims if you'd like. I thought the 13 I put up there was a generous supply, but there is so much scientific evidence out there. For me, I was convinced by actually experiencing it and I'm more and more convinced with evey adjustment and my continuing health. Then there's the basic logic of how the nervous system functions and how neural message interferance to and from the brain can cause health problems. To me, it just makes logical sense. Step on a garden hose and the flower at the other end will dry up. If you haven't already, I whole-heartedly encourage you to get adjusted by a straight chiropractor (one who is interested in health and not just pain relief...the pain relief ones tend to be the ambulance chasers). Experience it for yourself. To your health and to your peace. Levine2112 07:56, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Anecdotal evidence does not science make. And case studies are anecdotal evidence. Population-based double-blind studies prove that modalities work - not one off miraculous cures (even if the cures are your own). My father attended a so-called holistic chiropractor and the chiropractor fractured my father's back. And at age 61 a fractured spine is not the best position to be in. But rest assured, I am not allowing my personal experiences to prejudice my view of chiropractic, I was skeptical of it before my father's 'accident'. Indeed, I urged him not to attend. But it's not somethng one goes and says "I told you so," later. I shall research the other publications when Ihave some time. Cheers, Henry. Maustrauser 09:29, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I think there is a problem in what you are asking for: a double-blind study of chiropractic. Double-blind would mean neither the subject nor the practitioner would know whether a real chiropracitc adjustment has taken place or just a placebo adjustment. I don't think this is possible, espeicially from the practitioners stand-point. I think a chiropractic practitioner would know whether or not they are applying an actual or a placebo adjustment. There have been single-blind studies where the practitioner knew if they were giving a real or fake adjustment, but the subject did not know nor did the third-party researcher. Many of these studies have been in favor of chiropractic's claims to promote general health. As far as I know, a double-blind study would be impossible. Just like a double-blind study of a surgery. The surgeon is going to know whether or not they removed an organ, repaired an artery, implemented an artificial device, et cetera. A double-blind study would be impossible in these scenarios too. So for now, all we have are single-blind studies, case studies, and anecdotal evidence to rely on... I'm sorry about your father. But please understand - with the utmost respect to your father's suffering - that there is malpractice in virtually every form of medicine. Statistically, chiropractic's malpractice rate is miniscule compared to conventional medicine. Levine2112 22:53, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Osteoarthritis

I reverted the entry regarding the National Association for Chiropractic Medicine that states "they are essentially advocating the more liberal mixer style of treatment where manipulation is purported to be an effective treatment for osteoarthritis when there is actually no scientific evidence which supports this belief." I found a couple articles on the Arthritis Foundation website that states that manipulation may help osteoarthritis pain , so I don't think there is enough here to show that the NACM is actually advocating a mixer style of treatment. Edwardian 04:44, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

POV stuff

This page is quite notorious for it. Just keep a look-out. The ext links at present are neutral. But the ones that I had to delete twice recently are not. Drdr1989 03:22, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree, particularly the blogs. Edwardian 03:34, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Great! Just one thing: Don't be too shy to rv edits yourself next time - remember Misplaced Pages doesn't mind us being bold :). Drdr1989 05:03, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Money Money Money

Why if I open my local yellow pages do I see that chiropractors are apparently the 3rd most numerous profession in the phone book, after lawyers and dentists. They take out huge ads that out claim to treat back pain (possibly reasonable), headaches (hmmmmm.), ear infections (?), carpel tunnel syndrome (??), allergies (???), ADHD (??????), provide "holistic healthcare", "nutrition", etc. Somehow, none of them fail to mention that they take insurance, auto accident injuries, and workman's comp claims. I think I see now. --Kvuo 01:40, 19 November 2005 (UTC) edited --Kvuo 00:59, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Neck 911.com

I wouldn't say this is a bad site, however not only is neck911.com biased but it has nothing to do with the subject matter of this chiropractic article. Therefore I believe it has no place in the links section here. -- Drdr1989 04:00, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

I think I agree. Chiropractic involves many different things, but this website seems to address criticisms of spinal manipulation. I wouldn't object to it being put in that article. Edwardian 22:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Subluxion Claims

Proponents for subluxions should quote the scientific literature supporting their existence, rather than modifying the statement saying that their is 'no' scientific eviden ce for this existence. Maustrauser 03:37, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Chirobase, Skeptic's Dictionary

External links removal: These sites only serve one opinion, have an obvious agenda, and are not peer reviewed.

Although there are some peer-reviewed sources in the latter, I suppose that upon reviewing them a second time they are biased like you say. Drdr1989 04:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Chiromed and Chirobase both serve one opinion, have an obvious agenda, and are not peer reviewed. Also, citing sources that cite the original source is not acceptable, nor is allowing a link to that source. It apprears that Chirobase and Chiromed are attempting to acquire backlinks to build there rankings.

Lack of neutrality is not a criterion for deleting an external link. If the external site can give the reader an insight to the topic that the Misplaced Pages article can not, that's all it needs. We can include links to biased or even blatantly factually incorrect sites if they offer an insight (e.g. while you might not learn about Chiropractic from a biased or incorrect site you can learn about the controversy surrounding it), and we can even add notes to the external links section warning the reader that the external site approaches the subject from a certain angle. See for example the Creationism or Iraq War articles. Joe D (t) 08:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

In this case, this will not be acceptable. I can see that Chirobase and Chirotalk are really trying hard to keep their advantage, but Misplaced Pages is not a spring board for these particular individually owned sites to gain advantage in the search engines.

Removal of external links is not vandalism, especially when they fraught with agenda. I like the concept of organizing the links, but the article is already too heavily weighted with negative anti-Chiropractic bias, so the addition of your so called skeptic links will not be allowed. Also, I am not saying that Chirotalk, Chiromed, and Chirobase have used all "10" of their supporters to attempt to keep these links going (for all I know you could all be the same person using different log in and I.P. addresses); however, what I am saying is that they all support the same negative agenda and viewpoint. For example, the fact that they keep choosing Chiromed as a source, when there are much more reliable organizations that have more than a few supporters and actually have peer reviewed articles and studies, clearly demonstrates an agenda that does not fit with Misplaced Pages's mission. Therefore, these external links will continue to be removed.

It is not appropriate to include biased links without denoting it as such (i.e., like how it is listed now in the article). Without such denotation it is inappropriate to include "insight" that would lead the reader from an otherwise neutral article to a link that sways either way from the middle. In other words, the way that our OH friend has organized it as of now appears OK, even though he didn't quite succeed to substantiate such in prior attempts. Drdr1989 23:29, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Anon, please demonstrate why the links do not add to the article than whining about POV, which as explained is not applicable here (and incidently is grounds to removal all the other links which present only the opposite POV). If you demonstrate for example that the sites are not notable, or that there are more extensive and useful skeptical sites we could link we should go right ahead and update the article. But your complaints of POV and selective targeting of skeptical sites is why I jumped to the conclusion that you are simply trying to push POV by omission.

Please also familiarise yourself with how Misplaced Pages operates before telling us what "won't be allowed". Joe D (t) 04:20, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Here are the links anon above has been deleting. The first two are notable, relevant and useful:

www.Chirobase.com] — Skeptical Guide to Chiropractic History, Theories, and Practices

(24,500 results for "chirobase" on Google)

skepdic.com/chiro.html Skeptic's Dictionary: chiropractic]

(Published on dead trees)

chirotalk.proboards3.com/ Chirotalk: A Skeptical Discussion Forum About Chiropractic]

OK, the anon now know as "Wikismart" is now in the realm of the 3rr and continues to hypocritically delete links "with an agenda", without further attempts to justify the actions within the terms of Misplaced Pages. In my book this is vandalism. Joe D (t) 04:54, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

No More External Links to Gain Personal Advantage: There is a difference between citing a source and inclusion of an external link. This external link is not necessary and obviously a part of the agenda to gain site popularity. The section of "skeptical" Chiropractic links is also unnecessary considering the already negative tone of this article. Finally, here is the most important issue: If these so called "skeptical Chiropractic" sites are allowed to use Misplaced Pages to gain advantage in the rankings through an increase of back links and direct Misplaced Pages traffic, we will sending a message that Misplaced Pages can be used to further a site's rankings. This could spawn further individuals to do the same and thereby not allow Misplaced Pages to remain a credible source of information (how do you think that chirobase gets so many results on Google). While it may be good Search Engine Optimization techniques on the part of these sites, it is not good for Misplaced Pages's credibility. I have taken out the external link so these sites will not receive that advantage. However, I left the URLs so that a person could choose to take a look at these sites. If Chirobase, Chirotalk, Quckwatch and Chiromed really believe in their cause, they will be happy to just make their statements known to the world, without the external link advantage.--Wikismart 05:09, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I added my User for the last paragarph because I forgot to log on that time.--Wikismart 05:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I could say exactly the same about the links to chiropractic organisations. It really is hard to resist WP:POINT right now. And the external link in the sources section is there so readers (and editors) can check it's correct. Deleting that link makes you look like somebody who is only here to remove links to sites you don't like to reduce google results. I have been using Misplaced Pages for two and half years, made probably less than a dozen edits to the Chiropractic page (all vandalism reverts), all in the last few months. Accusing me of being here to promote these websites is laughable. Looking at the contributions of your account and IPs however backs up my suspicion that you care a lot more about reducing the google rankings of a few websites than the quality of Misplaced Pages. Joe D (t) 05:21, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

P.S., I have returned the external links to this page, they are here so other editors can evaluate the sites. Do not edit other people's comments. Joe D (t) 05:21, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with my I.P. addresses, I just have more than one location and have done nothing to hide this. Can you say the same for everyone else? Your accusations are as thin as your attempts to hide your affiliation with these sites. As far as the external links go, any editor can copy and paste, so I will delete them once again. Besides, I have nothing to gain from removing these links, but some individuals obviously stand to gain from it being remaining there. p.s., previously I never said you have an agenda, but as they say: "If the shoe fits, feel free to wear it."--Wikismart 07:19, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Although the sites removed are, once again, biased I still don't understand Wikismart's rationale for removing them. Although the sites should be denoted like I've mentioned above, keeping them on just provides an option for users to gain easy access to these "con" sites more than it does to promote the site. Besides, thousands of links, not one, are required to boost a ranking in Google. On the other hand, leaving these links out doesn't hurt the article; I'm really on middle ground here. I just don't think the rationale provided for removing them makes any sense.Drdr1989 19:54, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I think maybe you underestimate the power of links from a source like Misplaced Pages. The real problem is that if we allow external links to be used by individuals to gain this advantage in the search engines, Misplaced Pages become a target for this type of behavior. For example, a search engine marketer may reference his or her site on every talk page that is relevant just to gain advancement in the search engines, as well as the extra traffic it garners. I wouldn't mind seeing Misplaced Pages get rid of external links all together, but if this does not happen, then at least we can monitor against the kind of self promoting we are seeing with Chirobase, Quackwatch, chiromed and chirotalk.--70.32.198.143 05:18, 29 November 2005 (UTC)--Wikismart 05:21, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't disagree with your philosophy regarding external links, and I certainly know how popular wikipedia is to have an influence (Alexa ranking, Pagerank) on sites having links to them - not to boost rankings really, but to increase traffic somewhat. I do agree that if we don't do something now then wikipedia will be the source of excessive linkspam. And I sort of side in your opinion regarding getting rid of external links due to the linkspam potential, although there should be some "further info" section similiar to that provided in books, etc. I just didn't see what your reason had to do with removing "con" sites when there was a seperate heading for them, especially since someone else other than the promoter possibly put them there, and also since that rationale for removal is not much different if one applies that to the other two sections there. Drdr1989 20:51, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

In general you may have a good point, but if you really evaluate this situation you will find that the article itself has very little cited references, and the ones that it does have mostly reference the same view points that these so called "skeptic Chiropractic" sites share. Combine this with the fact that there are a few very passionate users who are working very hard to keep a these "skeptical chiropractic" sites linked from this article and talk page and you can easily draw the conclusion that there is a vested interest in promoting an agenda outside of Misplaced Pages. --Wikismart 04:34, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

There are a few users working hard to keep these sites in because you are unilaterally deleting them, are working passionately to delete things from the Chiropractic page alone (that's what the IP comment above was about, please don't pretend you have Misplaced Pages's interests at heart), and have so far only provided a few irrelevant conspiracy theories as the reason for doing so. Perhaps if you showed a commitment to anything other than deleting Chiropractic skeptical links from Misplaced Pages we could believe it wasn't simple vandalism with "an agenda". Joe D (t) 12:43, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Nice try Joe, but you forgot one thing; there can be no such thing as an "irrelevant conspiracy," as no conspiracy could possibly be irrelevant. Secondly, I have only just begun, so don't get too concerned that I won't be contributing anything further. Although, for you to think that link monitoring isn't important, perhaps you place too low of a priority on the reputation of Misplaced Pages.--Wikismart 07:42, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Way too many qualifiers

The intro on this is way to loaded with qualifiers: "claims", "asserts", "some", "commonly refer to themselves". I'd fix it but I have little time to delve into the reasons of the NPOV tag, read the history, and figure it all out for myself. I presume there are people that care about this article more than I — a casual reader of it. In essence: the intro reads as someone slapped in qualifiers because they didn't agree with what it said and the intro ended up being so NPOV-ish that it's distracting. FWIW to whom cares. Cburnett 15:19, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Chiropractic philosophy

I added this section because I believe it needed to be stated plainly what exactly is at the heart of chiropractic philosophy. It's nothing magical. It nothing spiritual. It's nothing cult-ish. It's basic biology. However, as there is controversy over this issue, I was sure to add to my text qualifiers such as "chiropractors believe" and "chiropractic claims" and such - to let anyone coming here for research know that this philosophy may not be an absolute fact. I am certainly in no way dismissing that there are chiropractors who adopt more New Age practices that can be viewed by Western eyes as quackery. I am simply stating the basic science at the heart of chiropractic. It wasn't mentioned on this page and I think it is important to get to the core, defining characteristics in a Wiki article.

Levine2112 18:36, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Mention of B.J. Palmer in History section

The short mention is important to the history of chiropractic. -- Fyslee 22:52, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Religious views of DD Palmer

I believe they should stay in the history section, especially since they deal with origins. .. Fyslee 22:52, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

NCAHF

Can we be honest about what this organization is? The way it is presented, it makes it seem like they have no conviction either way on Chiropractic on the onset and that they are a nationally recognized legitimate organization. Clearly, they are tied into so many anti-chiropractic organizations such as chirobase and quackwatch. I feel like all of this chiropractic dissent is essentially coming from one antichiropractic organization hiding behind many names (NCAHF, chirobase, quackwatch, et cetera) in hopes that the more organizations that they have, the more legitimacy their arguements will have. I, for one, see through this ploy and I hope others do too.Levine2112 21:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Chirobase and Quackwatch are websites run by Stephen Barrett. From the NCAHF website, we find that "NCAHF is a private nonprofit, voluntary health agency that focuses upon health misinformation, fraud, and quackery as public health problems." The NCAHF website is also run by Stephen Barrett. I don't see how this is a ploy, given that Barrett makes it obvious that he runs the websites. You may also want to check out James Randi's website, run by James Randi, who offers a one million dollar prize to anyone who can demonstrate a paranormal phenomenon under controlled conditions. --CDN99 22:55, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I am familiar with Randi. But chiropractic is hardly a paranormal phenomenon. Although sometimes the miraculous results do seem magical, yes. But alas it is science.

So whether it is chirobase, quackwatch, or ncahf - it will all be the same anti-chiropractic opinion coming from Stephen Barrett (an MD) or the members of his organizations. Why not just have one site then? Or one orgainzation? Why cite each one as though they are independent voices? As it is, it does seem like a ploy using something official sounding such as "National Council" which makes it seem as though it was federally recognized as an authority rather than just another chiropractic hate group. Levine2112 23:09, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Why does it matter how many sites the man has, and why does it matter that he is a medical doctor? He gave it the name "National Council..." likely because it's a council with members throughout the nation. You criticise his group because it "claims" to be federally recognized, but at the same time you criticise the many dubious "alternative medicine" groups with loaded words in their titles (ex. National Health Federation). This is the end of this discussion. --CDN99 02:23, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I am very confused by this response. When did I criticize alternative medicine groups with loaded words in their titles? What is the National Health Federation? I certainly haven't cited any reference to it nor have I criticised it. I never heard of it.

My point here is that Barrett and his supporters clearly have an anti-chiropractic agenda. He has many organizations that are all him saying the same things (and using his various organizations to cross refernces each other in order to give his claims legitimacy). For instance, QuackWatch will have a stat that he will cite as coming from NAHCF which will have a report that comes from ChiroBase. That seems dubious to me. I just don't think that it is reliable information when it is coming from one organization disguising itself as many. This seems highly deceptive for the users of this Wiki article.

This is not the end of this discussion. These talk pages exist to foster discussion, not quelch it. I sincerely look forward to reading intelligent responses to this. Levine2112 20:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I seem to have misplaced my keyboard and/or my fingers. Regretfully, I must leave this intelligent discussion. I bid you adieu, good sir. Sincerely, This Guy --CDN99 21:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

CDN99, please read Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines, specifically those related to disruption, vandalism and good faith. Further disruptions and vandalism will not be tolerated. Levine2112 00:01, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Chiropractic revisionism at its most primitive level

DD Palmer claimed that subluxations were the cause of 100% of all diseases. Period. To my knowledge, no chiropractic historian has ever dared to question that fact.

There have been several attempts here by chiropractic supporters, most notably Levine2112, to get around this historical fact. He keeps editing it back to 95% (which would be bad enough!), but DD Palmer was a well-known megalomaniac who made large claims. He did claim to have reached his goal.

A very superficial reading of the following quote by a chiropractic novice might result in such a mistake, but for Wikipedian chiropractors themselves to do so takes a superhuman effort to (deliberately?) misread it! Do they have blinders on?

Here it's explained, using his actual words:

Chiropractic theory is rooted in the notions of Daniel David Palmer, a grocer and "magnetic healer" who postulated that the basic cause of disease was interference with the body's nerve supply. Approximately a hundred years ago, he concluded that "A subluxated vertebrae . . . is the cause of 95 percent of all diseases. . . . The other five percent is caused by displaced joints other than those of the vertebral column." He claimed that subluxations interfered with the body's expression of "Innate Intelligence"-- the "Soul, Spirit, or Spark of Life" that controlled the healing process. He proposed to remedy the gamut of disease by manipulating or "adjusting" the problem areas.

1. Palmer DD. The Science, Art and Philosophy of Chiropractic. Portland, Oregon: Portland Printing House Company, 1910.

Read it again!

Let's parse the key words of that quote carefully:

• Subluxated vertebrae (that's the spine.....;-) account for 95% of all diseases.

• Other displaced joints account for the other 5% of all diseases.

Let's see now, a little second grade math:

• 95 + 5 = 100.

Wow! It actually works! DD Palmer could do his math. He didn't make a mathematical error when he claimed to have found the cure for ALL diseases. He did make such claims, as ALL serious chiropractic historians have known all along.

I hope this settles the editing wars on this point. A NPOV is based on accurate figures and quotes. The 100% figure stands. Please leave it alone! -- Fyslee 23:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. But if you are really relying on what the founder of chiropractic said over 120 years ago to support your antichiropractic arguments, that's pretty sad. Look what MD's were doing 120 years ago. Can I cite that to discredit their profession? I suppose I could, but that would be pretty weak and I don't think I would sink that low.

"Antichiropractic arguments"??? This is history, and thus conforms to NPOV. You keep interjecting POV and revisionism. Why deny the history of chiropractic?

What do MDs have to do with it? Quit trying to change the subject. That's too old a chiropractic ploy. Come on with your life. -- Fyslee 00:06, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and yes 95 plus 5 does equal 100. But the article read's "subluxations are the cause of 100% of all diseases". Subluxation. Not "displaced joints". There's a difference. So it would seem that the correct number is "95" and not 100. That's a little second grade English for you. Levine2112 23:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

That's an interesting twist! Palmer was obviously using the generally accepted definition of the word, which is (partially) displaced joints. That the "chiropractic subluxation" has also been (and still is by some chiros) imbued with metaphysical qualities, is another matter. Palmer was using the normal definition of subluxation. English is my mother tongue, so I don't need a lesson on this particular point. As a PT, PA, and long time student of chiropractic, I can easily get Keating to back me up on this one, but I'll let you check with him. If you can get him to state that I'm wrong, then I'll have to dig up some of his own research on the subject.

Here are the key revision attempts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chiropractic&diff=34541932&oldid=34503778

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chiropractic&diff=next&oldid=34541932

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chiropractic&diff=next&oldid=34545717

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chiropractic&diff=next&oldid=34549361

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chiropractic&diff=next&oldid=34592883

current version, with corrections: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chiropractic&diff=next&oldid=34653974

-- Fyslee 23:54, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

and he dares to change it back again!: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chiropractic&diff=34681334&oldid=34680025

If this keeps up, we have to get administration to block his IP address.

Levine, grow up. -- Fyslee 00:10, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Why all the Anti-Chiropractic Hate?

I am curious. Why do you hate chiropractic? Please be specific. I seriously want to know your grievances. Please list them here. Levine2112 23:57, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

No hate at all. Only skepticism of the quackery aspects of chiropractic. If you'll just stay honest and civil, we can have some interesting discussions here. If you continue getting nasty, you'll get nowhere, other than revealing the nasty side of your motives. -- Fyslee 00:13, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

The same goes for you. I fight fire with fire. Just my nature. You seem highly motivated to hurting the profession. There must be a reason. I just want to know why. Levine2112 00:15, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Where is the fire? You repeatedly attempted to improperly revise accurate information. I simply exposed your attempts and corrected them. You can stop anytime. -- Fyslee 00:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I say your information is not accurate and I show exactly why. Here's some fire: "Levine, grow up". Or "If this keeps up, we have to get administration to block his IP address." And "Come on with your life". And "a little second grade math". Now to be fair, I never got this personal until you did. I understand that Wiki has strict guideline against this and I will refrain from make furthere juvenile comments as it doesn't help what we are trying to do, which is create and honest non-biased article. Now please, answer my question... Why do you hate chiropractic? Levine2112 00:27, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I have answered it. I don't hate chiropractic. I oppose the quackery found in chiropractic. If you don't identify yourself with it, then you need not be defensive. That's all. I'm interested in accurate information, just as many chiropractors are. I get my information from them, and they agree with me. -- Fyslee 00:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

It has been settled on the "quackery" page that chiropractic is not considered "quackery". If you want to address the certain aspects of chiropractic that you deem to be quackery then please do it on a more specific page and not the general chiropractic article. The agreement is that "quackery" is a pejorative term. Using it incites anger. Using it to blindly label a profession is hateful and typically inaccurate. Levine2112 00:36, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

When I get some more time I'll have to take a look at it. I wrote about the quackery "in" chiropractic. That's not the same as labeling the whole profession quackery. There are very divided opinions on that subject.

The use of the word "quackery" certainly can be pejorative, but it also has legitimacy in many situations, and there will naturally be controversy in each case. That's life, and it doesn't detract from the legitimacy of the word, in fact the controversy just shows that it really does have legitimacy. Only the quacks will keep quacking.....;-) -- Fyslee 00:44, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty happy with the "Chiropractic" article as it is. As long as the core scientific belief of the profession is there and most prominent - Removal of subluxations allows for better communication between the brain and all of the body's systems, thus promoting health. Levine2112 00:51, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

WP:3RR

Can you keep the argument on the talk page, please. Ta, Joe D (t) 00:52, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

The Three-revert rule (or 3RR) is an official policy which applies to all Wikipedians. The policy states that an editor must not perform more than three reversions, in whole or in part, on a single Misplaced Pages article within 24 hours of their first reversion. (This does not apply to self-reverts or correction of simple vandalism). This does not imply that reverting three times or fewer is acceptable. In excessive cases, people can be blocked for edit warring or disruption even if they do not revert more than three times per day.

95 or 100

You (Fyslee) are saying that there is no way of telling that Palmer made the distinction between subluxations and joint displacement in the quote. You are referring to this quote that you added to the article, right? - "A subluxated vertebrae . . . is the cause of 95 percent of all diseases. . . . The other five percent is caused by displaced joints other than those of the vertebral column". Clearly, he made a distinction, otherwise he would have said 100%, no? Levine2112 01:56, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Levine, you may be needlessly confusing the information; DD Palmer said that the cause of every disease (100%) is disrupted nerve supply, and this disrupted nerve supply is due 95% to spinal subluxations and 5% to other joints. I don't know how much clearer that could be. --CDN99 02:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Then please reword this "the original chiropractic hypothesis that subluxations are the cause of 100% of all diseases". Because, as you said DD said that 100% of disease is caused by disrupted nerve supply...not subluxation. Is that clear? Levine2112 02:20, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Look up subluxation in a dictionary. From dictionary.com, the first definition is "Incomplete or partial dislocation of a bone in a joint." In other words, DD claimed that disease is due 95% to spinal dislocations (or subluxations), and due 5% to other dislocations (or subluxations), and that subluxations disrupted nerve supply, no matter where the subluxations were; thus DD did claim that disease was due 100% to subluxations (95% spinal, 5% other), and this is what Fyslee is saying in the section "During this time he tried to find a single cause for 100% of all diseases. He reached a point ....." --CDN99 02:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Then why the distinction the quote? "A subluxated vertebrae . . . is the cause of 95 percent of all diseases. . . . The other five percent is caused by displaced joints other than those of the vertebral column".Levine2112 03:01, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

You know what? It doesn't even bother me that much. Leave it. NACM doesn't hold much water with anyone anyhow. Just yet another face of Stephen Barrett. Levine2112 03:04, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Levine, even though you've been here only two months, you must understand Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines, specifically those related to disruption, vandalism and good faith. In 2004/2005 a user highjacked the alternative medicine section of Misplaced Pages to promote his own website and ideas, and started countless edit wars with numerous users, including me. He was banned from editing for a year in spring 2005 (his third banishment), and we're still cleaning up his mess. I'm not saying that you're like him, just that you may be heading in the direction of arbitration, considering your edit history. --CDN99 04:15, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Huh? I'm the one under attack here. Levine2112 06:47, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Comparison

I am reverting the deletion of a comparison which is a response to:

The practice of greatest concern is the rotary neck movement, sometimes called "Master cervical" or "rotary break", which has led to trauma, paralysis, strokes, and death among patients.

When a slanted unqualified statement such as that is made, it is intended to scare people away from seeking chiropractic as an alternative medicine. Therefore, I feel it is appropriate that if that statement is going to remain, then the following is an adequate comparison for a response:

Although serious, these complications due to spinal manipulation remain very rare having been estimated at 1 in 3 or 4 million manipulations or less. In comparison, between one in eight and one in fifteen patients admitted to a hospital can be expected to contract a hospital sourced infection or suffer other significant medical complication.

That being said, I would be more in favor of deleting the weasel words here completely. Putting in one biased statement will typically lead to a counter statement from the other side. It will go back and forth until we have an article wrought with opinions rather than the plain facts. Levine2112 23:54, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

No, it is a simple statement of documented fact, written without emotion or distortion. Therefore it is not a POV issue. Removing it would reduce the section to a non-issue, which it definitely isn't, except for some chiros who won't look at the evidence. It may not be a matter of "concern" for them, but the rest of the medical and scientific community is concerned, and to ignore them would be pretty foolish. It speaks to "their" concern, not the concern of chiropractic.

Leave it alone until we reach a concensus here. -- Fyslee 01:17, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Let's leave it until we reach a concensus. But let's also leave the comparison. It's is only fair. After all, all health professions have malpractice. Chiropractic is remarkably low statistically compared to other health professions. I think stating that fact is a mtter of concern for the entire world.Levine2112 01:24, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a better history of manipulation before chiropractic?

When you have a better one, then use it. Until then, leave the one I placed there intact. It's a good review of the history.

Make improvements, not deletions of other's work. Show a little respect.

your revision

-- Fyslee 01:13, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't consider a depiction of history that likens chiropractic techniques to cultism very respectful or honest. You added the information, it is up to you to cite it with unbiased documentation. Why don't you find something outsifde of the Stephen Barrett world of quackery. It may hold more water. Levine2112 01:17, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Fyslee, per you request I have replace your link with another link that doesn't liken chiropractic to cultisms. Levine2112 01:32, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

The book was written by a second generation chiropractor, and the chapter involved deals with the history of manipulation. The link is only to that chapter.

Those few paragraphs you replaced it with are a joke! A very short coverage. Dr. Homola's coverage is much more thorough, and has nothing to do with Barrett. It was written long before Barrett got involved with quackbusting. I have a hardbound copy of Homola's book, and it's still a classic. Even the ACA admitted that he was right and offered to restore his membership, after many years of sanction for writing the book. He should have followed his father's (a DC) advice and not become a DC. He has recently retired. -- Fyslee 01:40, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

BTW, that was your third revert, but I'll give you a chance to restore my original link. If not, you can expect to get sanctioned by Misplaced Pages. -- Fyslee 01:40, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

No, because that wasn't a revert. That was an edit that you even asked me to make. But maybe you're right. I'll wait for sanctioning.

Dr. Homola is associated with Barrett as depicted here: buddies. He is extremely anti-chiropractic (in that he speaks out against mainstream chiropractic establishment) and therefore I don't think that he could provide a very fair history of it. Levine2112 01:45, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

64.230.76.119

Sysop, this IP address has been spamming articles (including Chiropractic) with a link as well as vandalism. Please check their activity. Levine2112 05:20, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed! I have been following this activity, and whoever it is is sending from Ottawa. It looks like they are being overzealous, and they probably don't understand how things work here at Misplaced Pages. -- Fyslee 10:39, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I have posted the following warning on both the User and Talk pages. Let's hope they listen!

Warning!

Ottawan,

Your editing is untimely, heavy handed, very poorly done, inaccurate, and very improper.

I'm a chiroskeptic, but this is making Chirotalk and chiroskeptics look bad. If you are a chiropractor and that is your mission, then you are succeeding and will be exposed. Investigations are in progress. Please stop immediately! -- Fyslee 12:07, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

-- Fyslee 12:16, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Secretly I was hoping that the IP address was from Loma Linda. ;-) Levine2112 20:40, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Ha ha! That was a good one. Some others might not understand why, but I originally come from Loma Linda, and William Jarvis, PhD (the founder of the NCAHF) was a professor there in the School of Health until his recent retirement. There are a lot of skeptics in LL, but also a lot of true believers. -- Fyslee 23:25, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

External links improvement

After a reversion after vandalism, caught by User:Steinsky, I have tidied up the External Links section with better headings and plenty of good links on both sides of the issues. I have used the alt. med. page as a model, since it's a common way to do it here at Misplaced Pages. The NPOV is best preserved by including both sides. I can't be accused of not being fair.....;-)

Several of the links under "Critiques" are from chiropractic's foremost historian, chiro professor Joseph C. Keating, Jr., PhD. He has been employed by the profession for ages, and is so knowledgeable and important for them, that he can get away with telling the truth. Subluxation based chiros hate him, but he has support from many teachers, researchers, and some in the very top (who don't dare to identify themselves publicly, but who participate at Chirotalk under pseudonyms. Very interesting phenomenon! -- Fyslee 10:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Chiropractors work, - personal experience here!!!

When I was 13 i broke my right leg right at the very very top, too high for a cast, so i spent 4 months in traction. Whilst my left leg healed, my right leg grew, so when i left hospital my right leg was 1/2" longer than the left.

As i got older, i had terrific bachache, that lasted till i was 45. For 30 years, multiple doctors had no idea what was causing it, and just gave me pain killers. Then i went to a chiropracter. After 15 minutes he said 'your left leg is shorter'. I said 'and...........', and he said 'thats why your getting backache. When you stand straight up your entire body leans sidweys, and so your spine has to twist right to keep your balance. Because your spine is a three dimensional curve, its causing huge stress on certain muscle on your left side'. I asked him if we can solve it, he told me to go buy a pair of shoes, take them to the cobbler, and have the left one built up sole and heel by one centimtre. I did, and after two weeks, and with several sessions, my backache disssappeared. I only get it now if i try excessive lifting (because 30 years of abuse have damaged it slightly permanently), but 20 mintes on his couch and its gone. Once or twice, ive been and you can feel and hear the vertebrate click back into place and its instant relief.

Chiropracters are bloody marvellous, and know more about backs and backache than all the bloody useless General Practioners and NHS Consultants put together, after all look the score card - NHS doctors 30 years, no solution: Chiropracter, 15 minutes, job sorted.

So dont knock em until you've tried them.

user:lincspoacher

The only reason they seemed to work in your case is because conventional or allopathic physicians are so poorly paid and trained in the UK. American physicians are subject to stricter training and examination requirements and earn much more. That's why all the rich people keep coming from the UK to America whenever they need the very best surgery, therapy, or drugs. --Coolcaesar 21:59, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Curious if you have any chronic health problems in the past 30 years? If so, any change since your visits to the chiropractor?

I have had a similar problem growing up. One leg shorter than the other. I too sought traditional medicine (in the US) for help, but all they could provide was pain relief with pills. Five years of these pills nearly destroyed my liver. On the recommendation of a college professor, I went to a chiropractor. The doctor xrayed me and aside from adjustments, he prescibed foot-levellers - a shoe insert to balance me out. However, I did not have to wear them for all that long, because the length difference was actually caused by my pelvis being out of place. A month of visits and my legs were balanced out. Now I need only go once a month for maintainence. My liver soon repaired itself 1) because I stopped taking the pills and 2) because my body was now functioning healthier. But more amazing, was something that I thought was unrelated. I have always had a problem with asthma. Oddly, that vanished too since my visits to the chiropractor. You can call it coincidence, but this is something that I have had ever since I could remember, through college and long after my adolesence had ended. The chiropractor explained how the whole body works better with chiropractic. I am now a believer 72.129.6.122 00:59, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Anecdotal evidence is worth nothing. Only population based studies show whether something works or not. My father had his spine broken (!!!) when he visited a chiropractor. He was paralyzed and died shortly afterwards. Now do I claim that chiropractic is rubbish based on my father's experience or do I claim that no population based studies have shown that chiropractic is better than any other treatment and quite often worse? Maustrauser 12:20, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Testimonials mean absolutely nothing...but I have a couple of my own. My current landlord had her thumb fractured by a chiropractor about a year ago (he was adjusting her wrists and hands to cure her arthritis and "brain fog".......), and since she is a "believer" she decided to wait until tomorrow to go see a real doctor. Although my father didn't die as a result of having his spine adjusted, he has had chronic back pain following an "adjustment" by a chiropractor to fix a pulled muscle. It seems that for every "cure" there is a debilitating injury, so following on the logic that population based studies aren't needed, wouldn't my experiences and Maustrauser's effectively cancel out the above miracle stories? --CDN99 15:29, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Testimonials do mean something or else people wouldn't be compelled to testify. Frankly, I want to hear people's personal experiences before I choose my physicians. And yes, population studies would be amazing - did anyone say otherwise? Double-blind studies, however, would be impossible to execute I think as at least the practitioner would know whether or not the adjustment was a "placebo". The malpractice rate in chiropractic compared to other healthcare professions is miniscule so I feel that saying. for every cure there is a debilitating injury, is unfair and untrue. I know chiropractors that see an average 100 patients a day. Are you suggesting that 50 of those patients leave with debilitating injuries? Levine2112 20:43, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that 50 of those patients leave with debilitating injuries? Well, I wouldn't be surprised; the patients wouldn't attribute their injuries to their chiropractic treatment if they're "believers." I always considered it common sense that enormous pressure should not be abnormally applied to joints, especially in the spine, but I guess that's just my background in science talking. Population based studies should have been performed long ago, but they haven't (why? it's not for lack of funding or support) BTW, has the malpractice rate for chiropractors ever been measured? --CDN99 21:25, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Tremendous force. Hardly. My experience with over a dozen chiropractors has been that the force has been no more than an average hug. You seem to be a true believer that chiropractic is bad. Have you tried it for yourself? Was the force tremendous? The statistics show the minimun or rare case of malpractice that could happen in chiropractic (like in any other healthcare profession) when you compare how many people die daily as a results of prescription drug reaction and unnecessary surgery for conditions that could be solved if instead of trying to discredit the well respected chiropractic profession, we an work together for the benefit of the people's health. You say you wouldn't be surprised if 50 out of 100 patients walk away with debilitating injuries. Yet, all evidence points to quite the contrary. See, that is your opinion based on your own feelings. Science is based on evidence. Evidence can be found in the statistics that show that chiropractic has an extremely low malpractice rate. I guess that's my science background talking now. Levine2112 21:59, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Tremendous force? I said enormous pressure.... I've seen many chiropractors work (there's four chiropractic offices in my town of just 8,000!), and they aim for a "pop" sound and keep pressing harder until they and the patients hear it (i.e. hardly an average hug; and they seem to ignore any "crunch" sounds or gasps of pain from the patient). I will, however, never try it for myself. Could you cite "the statistics" that support your point please? --CDN99 22:11, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I performed a cursory search and found this link - Under the "Is Chiropractic Dangerous?" portion, the author cites numerous statistics and studies concerning chiropractic and malpractice. I found this paragraph enlightening:

The governments of several countries, including the United States (A.H.C.P.R.) and Canada (Manga), have found manipulation to be the most effective form of treatment for back pain. In fact, the Canadian report suggested that Chiropractors be the “gate keepers” for back pain saying that it would save Canada hundreds of millions of dollars if their citizens saw Chiropractor’s first. After reviewing all published studies, it was determined that there were “no medical procedures that were as safe as Chiropractic treatment.”

I found this from another site:

Yes. Statistics prove that chiropractic care is one of the safest types of healthcare in the world. You only need to compare the malpractice premiums paid by chiropractors to those paid by medical doctors. Doctors of Chiropractic pay only a small fraction (approx. 1/20) of the price medical doctors pay in malpractice premiums. 250,000 people will die this year as a result of bad medicine, making this the third leading cause of death in the United States of America (The Journal of The American Medical Association, JAMA; Vol.284, July 26, 2000). Of the millions of people receiving chiropractic adjustments, each year, only a handful will even make a complaint. Levine2112 22:16, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

But you left out: 3. Nearly 10,000 studies have been performed on manipulation (making it the most thoroughly studied form of treatment for back pain) and the great majority have found the following when compared to medical treatment.....After reviewing all published studies, it was determined that there were “no medical procedures that were as safe as Chiropractic treatment.”.....

Wow! The author read all 10,000 studies done on chiropractic, plus every study done on the safety of every other treatment? That's quite impressive, but he didn't cite any of them.... How about some statistics from a neutral source, something other than the National Chiropractic Mutual Insurance Company Group Incorporated? --CDN99 22:27, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I would think that a company that insures chiropractors holds the greatest financial risk if chiropractic was dangerous. Are you suggesting that they are lying about their annual malpractice claims? You may want to read this article as well: . It makes a similar point but is supported with 20 references. Also, I have added links to the actual chirorpractic article with research performed by MDs and PhDs and other kinds of non-chiropractic related researches that all tout the benefits and safety of chiropractic. What more do you want from me? Now you made the claim that half of chiropractic patients receive debilitating injuries from adjustments. Can you cite something to back up your statistics? Levine2112 22:36, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

As I didn't make the claim that 50% of patients are injured from adjustments (I merely hinted at the possibility), I don't need to cite it. That was a very informative article that you gave me, and I read the whole thing! Now here's an article supporting my side of the argument: Chiropractic's Dirty Secret: Neck Manipulation and Strokes. This article cites articles from a variety of sources other than chiropractic journals/textbooks (as were cited in your article). --CDN99 23:41, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I've read it, but as the article I pointed out say about this statistic:

To place this in perspective, if we agree that the risk of dying from a stroke after a neck adjustment is 1/4,000,000, there may be as much as a 100 times greater risk of dying from an ulcer due to taking a prescription NSAID like Motrin. If you drive about 8 miles each way to get to your chiropractic appointment, you have a statistically greater risk of being killed or seriously injured in a car accident getting to the office than of having a serious complication from your treatment.

The Institute of Medicine report and others tell us that medical errors and malpractice rank anywhere from the 3rd to the 8th leading cause of death. More Americans are killed by medical error and malpractice every year than by car accidents, breast cancer, AIDS, cardiovascular disease and even handguns. According to Dr. John Eisenberg, Director of the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, "If the fifth leading cause of death was a disease, we'd invest hundreds of millions of dollars trying to understand its cause and research for new drugs. We've got to pay that kind of attention to this cause of death."

Comparitively, you'd have to say chiropractic is safe. Levine2112 23:52, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, it seems chiropractors say chiropractic is safer than other treatments, while medical doctors say it isn't. --CDN99 02:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

No, actually I have pointed to a number of reports by a number of MDs that also attest to the safety of chiropractic. Levine2112 06:50, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

A plan to delete or revise passage for NPOV

I am calling into question the NPOV status of the following statement currently in the article:

To date there is limited scientific evidence of the existence of "subluxations", in terms of quantifiable measures. Nerve conduction studies of human spinal nerves identified as being subluxed by chiropractors were shown to be normal by conventional scientific measures. Studies involving X-ray and CT scanning of the human spine before and after chiropractic manipulation show no changes in joint position as identified by radiologists. This lack of a clear definition of "subluxation", supported by scientific evidence, is one of the major sources of chiropractic's struggle for acceptance within the traditional medical community.

I feel this is extremely slanted. There is a tremendous amount of respected scientific research that does show the existence AND the effect of the vertebral subluxation. Granted, a lot of this research is by chiropractors and chiropractic organizations, I can also point to a number of researchers and doctors from other professions that have documented the existence of the vertebral subluxation and its consequences. Sir Sidney Sunderland, MD in "Nerve and Nerve Injuries" documented:

Narrowing of the lumbar intervertebral distance, whatever the cause, results in the subluxation of the apophyseal joints in which the facet of the vertebra above is displaced inferiorly across the surface of the facet of the vertebra below. As a result of this displacement, the medical branch of the lumbar dorsal ramus, which is fixed in this region, is involved in two ways:

1. Inflammatory swelling of the joint reduces the lumen of the tunnel containing the neurovascular bundle.
2. The inferior articular pedicel comes to press directly on the nerve.

Similar finding come to us from Rene Cailliet, M.D in his textbook "Neck and Arm Pain", "Scoliosis Diagnosis and Management" and "Tissue Pain and Disability". Dr. Cailliet also found that evidence that chiropractic care can reverse osteoarthritis—something previously considered impossible. According to Dr. Cailliet - a respected authority on orthopedic disorders - Surgery "should only be considered as a last resort". More evidentiary research showing the existence and effect of verrtebral subluxation comes to us from "The Cervical Syndrome" by Ruth Jackson, M.D. who reported that an analysis of more than five thousand patients who had symptoms referable to the cervical spine revealed that over 90% of these patients had one or more injuries to the cervical spine, either recent or remote. A study by Von Torklas and Gehle of the University Hospital, Hamburg, Germany, has found that even in the “healthy” children, the age group under eight years shows a 40% subluxation tendency. Gutmann, a German M.D., concluded in a paper published in 1987 in “Manuelle Medizun” that blocked nerve impulses at the upper neck cause many clinical features from central motor impairment to lower resistance infections, especially ear, nose and throat infections. He states, “Chiropractic and radiological examinations are of decisive importance for diagnosis of the syndrome.” He further states that chiropractic can often bring about amazingly successful results. Maigne, the eminent French orthopedist, states that “trauma to the cervical spine and head can cause irritation to the sympathetic fibers in the cervical spine, causing such problems as headaches, vestibular troubles, auditory problems, visual disturbances, pharyngolaryngeal disturbances, vasomotor and secretional problems.” Maigne adds that manipulation of the neck achieves excellent results with many of the conditions. And it goes on and on. I keep doing Google searches and I keep finding more well-documented, published independent studies supporting the existence of the vertebral subluxation.

Therefore, I feel it is a POV statement to write:

To date there is limited scientific evidence of the existence of "subluxations".

Depending on your definition of "limited", this statement would seem to be an opinion (and a false one at that).

As for the next sentence:

Nerve conduction studies of human spinal nerves identified as being subluxed by chiropractors were shown to be normal by conventional scientific measures.

Perhaps this is true sometimes. What studies? Who did these studies? I have cited and can cite much more that says just the opposite.

The same goes for the next sentence:

Studies involving X-ray and CT scanning of the human spine before and after chiropractic manipulation show no changes in joint position as identified by radiologists.

What studies? Please cite them.

Finally:

This lack of a clear definition of "subluxation", supported by scientific evidence, is one of the major sources of chiropractic's struggle for acceptance within the traditional medical community.

Vertebral subluxation is clearly defined by chiropractors today basically as a misalignment of the vertebra. You'd be hard-pressed to find legitimate chiropractors who say anything else. The spiritual definition was D.D. Palmer's rudimentary ideas over a 100 years ago before x-rays, CT scans, and a whole lot of other medical advancements and chiropractic research. I don't think it is fair to cite that and say that there is still confusion about the definition of subluxation. As for the rest of that sentence, clearly there is scientific evidence that supports subluxation, and while chiropractic does continue to struggle to gain acceptance in the traditional health community, I don't think it is because of a semantic debate over the word "subluxation".

Given the mixed opinions on this subject, I would like to suggest that we do one of two things.

1. Strike the paragraph completely, as it stands now it is mostly representive of the opinion that subluxations do not exist OR
2. Revise the paragraph to be more NPOV

A revised paragraph would note that there have been scientific studies that show the existence of vertebral subluxations and scientific studies that show the non-existence (of course, those studies would also need to be cited - as it stands now, it is just a blanket statement with no reference to anything).

Thoughts? Suggestions? Anyone want to take a shot a reworking this paragraph with me? Levine2112 04:16, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Safety concerns

Purpose of this section

The purpose of this section needs to be clarified. Of all sections of this article, this one should not be used to sell or defend chiropractic (neither should this article be used for that purpose). Chiropractic only needs to be defended against unfair or inaccurate presentations of the subject. That means that both positive and negative aspects should be covered.

This section should be concerned about patient safety, and any slanting of views that detracts from that end, should be avoided

Attempts to downplay risks involved in chiropractic procedures, primarily cervical manipulation, are counterproductive to this end, and only serve as protectionism for the interests of the chiropractic profession.

The continued downplaying of the risks of cervical manipulation has only fueled the fires of the public discussion, and in fact has been very counterproductive to the reputation of chiropractic. It has already been documented (Chiropractic twist on truth may have sparked inquest) that chiropractic leaders have deliberately and knowingly lied in public about this issue, in the sole interest of protecting chiropractic from bad publicity. That was a fatal error, which resulted in lost lawsuits and a great deal of negative publicity for chiropractic.

Such denials and downplaying should not be continued here. If they continue, they will only lead to increased attention to the problem, and will also lead to a sharpening of the language in the text of the article. There is plenty of research that can be included, if that becomes necessary.

I have collected a little(!) bit on this subject:

• Dangers of Chiropractic Therapy

The title is based on a video, "Dangers of alternative medicine" (a must see!!!), but my comments on that page make it clear that I consider this to be a matter of concern for all who use cervical manipulation, including my own profession of Physical Therapy. My conclusions are very clear on this point.

If patient safety is to be improved, any error in interpretation should be on their side, not on the side of chiropractic, which has a vested interest in burying this matter.

Editorial changes

User:Levine2112 wrote: I just NPOVified it. I think you'll agree with my edits. Maybe?

User:Fyslee replies here:

Fair enough. Let's fine tune it a bit more.

I understand your viewpoint very well, and also understand why this section needs to be kept as balanced as possible (as with all other Misplaced Pages articles).

Since this is an area with great disagreement, not only among chiropractors (the majority seeking to downplay the risks), but within the medical and scientific community (basically no attempts at downplaying, but more about just how great the risks really are), we should not consider this an area that is finally "proven" or conclusively "documented" as yet. More and more research is uncovering a serious underreporting problem.

To aid our discussion, I'll place the "before" and "after" versions below, with the keys words highlighted and numbered for ease of reference:

My version, before Levine2112's editing

• Many chiropractors report that these serious complications due to manipulation of the cervical spine remain rare, having been estimated (1) at 1 in 3 or 4 million manipulations or fewer. Such estimates are considered (2) to be highly unreliable because (3) of vast (up to 100%) underreporting problems. While still rare, the true incidence must (4) be much higher, and further research should (5) shed more light on this situation.

Levine2112's edited version

• Many chiropractors report that these serious complications due to manipulation of the cervical spine remain rare, having been documented (6) at 1 in 3 or 4 million manipulations or fewer . (7) Such estimates are believed (8) to be highly unreliable based on the possibility (9) of vast (up to 100%) underreporting of problems. While still rare, the true incidence could (10) be much higher, and further research may (11) shed more light on this situation.

To start with, please explain why you felt these changes were necessary. Were they made from a concern for

• (1) accuracy,

• (2) patient safety and protection, or

• (3) to protect chiropractic's reputation (by downplaying the risks and - as earlier done - to compare "apples and oranges" regarding other risks that aren't comparable)?

I fear that you are prioritizing chiropractic's reputation, to the detriment of accuracy and patient safety. -- Fyslee 12:45, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Levine2112's reply

Yes for accuracy.

Changing words such as "considered" to "believed" more accurately depicts that this statement is not a fact but an opinion. The same goes for changing "because" to "based on the possibility". "Because" refers to definite causality. But as this belief is just a debated theory, the belief is only a possibility. That would go for the word "must" which insists that there is "vast underreporting" - but again that is just a theory with little proof. "Should" again suggests a definite result; whereas "may" defines only the possibility that research will shed more light on vast underreporting.

Yes for patient safety and protection.

Now this is just an opinion, but it is as relevant and valid as your opinion on this matter: I feel that by scaring possible patients away from chiropractic, you are putting their health in jeopardy. I beleive this because I believe that chiropractic promotes health.

Yes to protect chiropractic's reputation.

As a knowledgeable advocate of chiropractic, I felt that the way the paragraph was worded, it was stating as fact that chiropractic is gravely dangerous. Without any documentation, your theory supposes that chiropractors must be vastly underreporting cervical neck trauma. I take offense to this not only as a chiropractic advocate but as a truth seeker. I found the paragraph POV and manipulative against chiropractic. But I am not trying to downplay the truth - that chiropractic has one of the lowest malpractice rates of any legitimate health profession - I was merely downplaying a supposition that was being presented as fact.

Now please read a paragraph that I added a while back:

Philosophy of the Subluxation

Chiropractic philosophy holds that much of the body is controlled by messages sent to and from the brain along the nervous system. The medical community agrees that all messages - whether it is the brain commanding the foot to move or an organ telling the brain it is in need of repair - pass through the spinal cord; which acts as a kind of cerebral router. An outgoing message from the brain passes down the spinal cord and through the appropriate spinal nerve branch held between the vertebrae on either side of the spinal cord. There are 31 pairs of spinal nerves that emerge from the spinal cord; all of which are housed by vertebrae. If the vertebrae are misaligned (subluxated), chiropractors believe that a spinal nerve can be squeezed or pinched and therefore message flow can be compromised. By aligning the vertebrae and removing restrictions on the spinal nerves, chiropractic claims to allow the spinal cord to more effectively relay messages to and from the brain; thus promoting better health.

Even though I truly believe in my heart of hearts that correcting subluxations does promote health, you'll notice that I was sure to point out that this is just a belief, not a fact. I used words such as "claim" and "believe". I even called it a "philosophy" rather than "science". I did this because I wanted to keep this article fair but at the same time educate a possible Wikipedian on what is at the core of chiropractic philosophy. I'm not trying to sway a researcher or possible chiropractic patient into believing anything. I am simply presenting them with information and clearly letting them know what is fact and what is theory. I feel that this paragraph exemplies what Misplaced Pages means by NPOV.

I took this very same approach when editing the paragraph in question in the Criticism section. Regardless of it being pro or anti chiropractic, I applied the very same standards of NPOV that I applied to my paragraph. I truly feel that I am acting resonably and completely fair considering the equal but opposite passions that we both have for this issue. Levine2112 21:58, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

removal of argumentative vandalism

Good catch! This guy works fast. I have written a warning on his User and Talk pages. -- Fyslee 22:49, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Problems with summary

Hello,

There are some inaccuracies in the article on chiropractic that do not reflect the latest research. I posted some corrections under AJB but they were deleted. These changes should be restored. They discuss how chiropractic doesn't meet the burden of proof that standard medicine requires, cost to benefit problems in chiropractic overutilization of cervical manipulation and its iatrogenic effect-stroke, the continued use of disproven and questionable chiropractic techniques, and the problem of chiropractic asserting that spinal misalignments are primary etiology rather than the effects of other conditions-which is quite established. There is also an irrelevant paragraph on upper cervical chiropractic-which is practiced by only 1% of chiropractors and hasn't made any significant discoveries because the cited techniques follow an orthogonal model that ignores individual anatomical variations (only Blair Technique, which is not mentioned, accounts for this). Another problem is the statement that straight chiropractors want to work with legitimate medical professionals. This is absolutely untrue. Straight chiropractors routinely disparage medical doctors, spread anti-vaccination propaganda, and rail against diagnosing problems calling it inaccurate. The real truth is that they delay necessary diagnosis rather than are responsible in their referrals. All of these problems need to be addressed to make the Wikki article factual.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Abotnick (talk • contribs)

POV in article

This article seems to be very biased towards chiropractic care. We're over 1000 words into the article before we are informed for the first time that "The use of manipulative therapy — especially as practiced by chiropractors — is regarded with controversy by medical authorities in many nations."

Then when we get to the part about the American Medical Association's position on chiropractic care we are told "Chiropractic has gained general acceptance in the last 40 years as an appropriate treatment for certain back and neck problems. This was partly a result of the prolonged litigation between the powerful American Medical Association (AMA) and various chiropractors over the legitimacy of the field (see Wilk v. American Medical Association). The AMA is politically opposed to chiropractic as a healing discipline and disputes the concept of subluxation."

That whoever wrote this wanted to qualify AMA with the adjective "powerful" does not bely POV as much as saying the "AMA is politically opposed to chiropractic". Politically opposed? That doesn't make much sense to me - they are medically opposed to it, or at least, after the lawsuit, adverse to it.

I have no desire to make a statement that since the mainstream AMA, doctors with medical degrees and so forth, consider chiropractic care to be a quack medicine, that it is so. But I do think this article does need to display more prominently and straightforwardly what the position of the AMA was and is on chiropractic care. The view of chiropractors and their supporters can be represented as well, and the reader can decide. But the AMA case presented here is buried deep in the article, and is not made well at all. Mr. Know-It-All 23:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I think adding that to the overview as you have done is all right. But the fact that there is an entire Criticism section, should also help balance out this article. Levine2112 03:21, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

This needs correcting

These sentences, found under the heading "Safety concerns," have been worked over and so far seem reasonably satisfactory:

• Many chiropractors report that these serious complications due to manipulation of the cervical spine remain rare, having been documented at 1 in 3 or 4 million manipulations or fewer . Such estimates are believed to be highly unreliable based on the possibility of vast (up to 100%) underreporting of problems. While still rare, the true incidence could be higher, and further research may shed more light on this situation.

....but there appear to be problems with what follows in the rest of the paragraph:

The following sentences introduced by an anonymous Australian user, are extremely one-sided and actually inaccurate on several points:

• Still, the safety of manipulation, by all accounts in current literature, appear to be superior to many non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, and spinal surgical procedures. The safety issue is again made controversial by the fact that much reported manipulation that resulted in stroke was not actually performed by chiropractors (see Terrett, AG). Also, stroke appears to be a random event in people of all ages, including babies.

To understand the nature of the problems, we'll need to analyze and deal with each sentence by itself, since each sentence has different types of problems:

Sentence 1

1. "Still, the safety of manipulation, ..."

The very first word ("still") is a biased POV, that sets the stage for the rest, which is designed to undermine the intent of the whole section (safety concerns about possible risks) and downplay the known risks. It is therefore unnecessary and counterproductive to the paragraph and to the sentence itself.

2. "..., by all accounts in current literature, ..."

The next phrase - "by all accounts..." - is an absolute (never say "never"....;-) and broad (it couldn't be broader!) statement, without any documentation (impossible to list it all), and is in fact untrue as regards cervical manipulation, the object of the "safety concerns." If it is to be kept at all, one could substitute "many" for "all." One cannot really claim "all", when cervical manipulation has been shown to have rare, but very serious, risks. The phrase simply ignores all the literature dealing with the risks of cervical manipulation.

3. "..., appear to be superior to many non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, ..."

The rest of the sentence is a misleading apples and oranges comparison on several counts:

• Many NSAIDs are self-administered for a myriad of conditions, many of which are not for problems comparable to those treated by chiropractors using spinal manipulation. (Okay, there are plenty of chiros who treat literally everything using "adjustments!") Therefore one cannot, in all fairness, compare the risks.

• Self-administered treatments should not be compared with treatments very carefully and deliberately administered by a practitioner.

• Since this section is about "safety concerns" involving cervical manipulation, the comparisons should be with methods used to treat the cervical spine, not all kinds of other things. (Ironically, the most (in number) serious chiropractic injuries I have actually seen in our clinic have been fractured lumbar vertebrae....! Of course the dead patients didn't come to me at all, but some strokes have been suspect....)

• Chiropractors regularly manipulate the cervical spine for problems that have no relation to it. Thus these "adjustments" are a totally unnecessary risk factor, and therefore should not be compared with other procedures with even greater risks, where there can at least be some excuse for their use.

4. "..., and spinal surgical procedures."

• To compare unnecessary and avoidable cervical "adjustments", often used for totally unrelated problems - or even when used for innocent neck problems - with complicated, risky and necessary "spinal surgical procedures," which are reserved for absolutely necessary and unavoidable situations, is one of the worst examples of typical chiropractic POV propaganda arguments around. One hears it all the time, and those who use it are either incredibly stupid, or are unethically and deliberately attempting to brainwash people. It violates a number of the rules of logic by making unfair comparisons ("apples and oranges"). The risks are extremely different, because the situations are totally different, so claiming that "the safety of manipulation, ......appear to be superior" is a bunch of crap.

I agree that the sentence is POV and could be reworked a bit. However, you can't call people "stupid" or "unethical" or accuse them of deliberatley brainwashing people. Your vitriolic attacks are uncalled for here. It is only your opinion that cervical adjustments are "unnecessary and avoidable". I happen to disagree and so do a lot of doctors, scientists and a large and growing portion of the general population. There is a lot of science out there that shows that chiropractic cervical adjustments are extrememly beneficial for more than just neck aches - but also for systems that you deem "completely unrelated" such as the immune, respitory, digestive and ciculatory. I know that there is also science that you point to that says just the opposite and cites the risks, but that doesn't excuse your use of opinionated, hate-inspired terms like "a bunch of crap". Please try to be more sensitive and rational when stating your case.

Furthermore, given chiropractic's strong anti-drug / anti-surgical stance, making comparisons to drug treatments and sugeory is completely warranted. Bear in mind, that generally chiropractors do believe that drugs and surgery are necessary at times; it's just that drugs and risky surgeory are massively over-prescribed. Chiropractors opt for more natural, less invasive routes to help their patients heal and help prevent futher illness. However, chiropractors are certainly aware of their own limitations and therefore it is of no surprise that chiropractors quite commonly have one of the highest referral rates of any health practitioners. Levine2112 18:41, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Sentence 2

"...The safety issue is again made controversial by the fact that much reported manipulation that resulted in stroke was not actually performed by chiropractors (see Terrett, AG)...."

• That statement is patently false. The "safety issue is" not at all "controversial," because - although "Terrett did expose a few (not "much") cases of misreporting - it didn't make that much difference in the overall picture, with chiropractors still being greatly overrepresented in the statistics of injuries and deaths, and Physical Therapists not being responsible for any deaths (revealed in another study - (below)).

• Quote (which mentions Terrett's study):

"The graphs are interesting, especially Figure 2, where the type of practitioner was adjusted according to the findings by Terrett. PTs were involved in less than 2% of all cases, with no deaths caused by PTs. DCs were involved in a little more than 60% of all cases, including 32 deaths."

Given your stance on "apples and oranges" above, the comparison here to PTs seems strangely convenient (especially coming from you, a PT). Also, I read this article that you referenced above and could not find what you quoted. I did a text search on the page, read it again, and scanned it several more time and still I could not find this quote. Please explain. Levine2112 18:58, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Oops! Wrong quote marks (or link). Let's try that again:

• The following link is to a study that was guided by the observations from Terrett's study. The graphs are interesting, especially Figure 2, where the type of practitioner was adjusted according to the findings by Terrett. PTs were involved in less than 2% of all cases, with no deaths caused by PTs. DCs were involved in a little more than 60% of all cases, including 32 deaths: Manipulation of the cervical spine: risks and benefits

Please point out where in this article it is said that DCs were involved with 32 deaths.

Good catch! Nice to get that cleared up. DCs were involved in a little more than 60% of all cases of injuries and deaths, and PTs were involved in less than 2% of all cases, with no deaths caused by PTs. Death occurred in 32 cases. The information on the website doesn't indicate just how many of those deaths were caused by chiropractors. The graphs are still quite interesting Figure 2.

From the summary:

• "The most frequently reported injuries involved arterial dissection or spasm, and lesions of the brain stem. Death occurred in 32 (18%) of the cases. Physical therapists were involved in less than 2% of the cases, and no deaths have been attributed to MCS provided by physical therapists." -- Fyslee 00:27, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Also, if we are in the middle of discussing a possible edit to a section, why did you go and delete it?

Because I don't need to ask your permission, and the sentences were so full of obvious inaccuracies and POV statements. -- Fyslee 00:27, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't asking for you to get my permission. But you put the matter to discussion and asked for ideas to edit it. Then you deleted it. Certainly, be bold with your edits. But don't put the matter to discussion if you are just going to disregard anything anyone says.Levine2112 00:54, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Further, perhaps I am being oversensitive, but I don't appreciate you telling me that I don't understand "apples to oranges" in the manner that you did. It was a condescending remark. I feel I understand the concept of "apples to oranges" completely. The now deleted paragraph was stating (though perhaps not clearly articulating) that with regards to some neck trauma, chiropractic care is much safer than drugs and surgical treatment. There is a direct comparison between two schools of thought in treating the same issue. That is "apples to apples". Levine2112 22:24, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you are indeed "oversensitive." You still don't seem to understand the application of the "apples and oranges" concept in this case, because they are not "treating the same issue". There is no comparison between the problems chiropractors treat and the problems surgeons treat.

No, actually I pointed out how they are comparable. They are treating the same thing: disease. The comparison is quite applicable. Levine2112 00:54, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

A logical fallacy

Comparing "apples to oranges" is a logical fallacy. Here's an explanation for this case:

We have two different professions dealing with the same part of the human anatomy, but for hugely different problems.

Just because chiropractors and surgeons may be dealing with a neck problem, doesn't mean that the relative safety and risk can logically be compared. The problems are so different that a comparison is nonsensical.

If the problems were the same, then a comparison might be legitimate.

• Some examples of problems commonly treated by chiropractors using neck manipulation:

headache, stiff neck from muscle tension, problems elsewhere in the body, allergies, ADHD, etc.

None of these would be treated by a surgeon using surgery.

• Some examples of problems commonly treated by surgeons using neck surgery:

neck cancer, fractures, some herniated discs, cervical instability, bone grafts, etc.

None of these should be touched by a chiropractor. These are cases of "last resort" where other more conservative measures have either failed or are not applicable.

Conclusion: The risks for the two approaches should not be compared. -- Fyslee 07:27, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, from the extremely limited examples that you provided above, you are right. There is no comparison. However, when you take into account that DCs and MDs are both health practitioners, that they both are doctors, that they both treat illness, that they both treat common diseases and symptoms such as colds, the flu, migraines, muscle pain, neck and back pain, stiffness, soreness, Crohn's, IBS, allergies et cetera, et cetera... now all of a sudden there is a plain and obvious comparison. The differnece is that DCs opt for a more natural less invasive approach while MDs typically opt for drugs and surgery. That is a direct comparison. Once again: Apples to Apples. (My favorite boardgame!) Levine2112 17:38, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd be amused if this weren't so tragic. You still don't get it, or you're just refusing to stick to the subject.

This "extremely limited example" happens to be THE SUBJECT! You have an agenda to whitewash chiropractic by smearing medicine. But that's not going to work here, because that's not the subject.

The subject is the risks of cervical manipulation, no matter who practices it. Now stick to the subject, because you are making a fool of yourself with these cheap and amateurish tactics. Keep in mind that I've dealt with chiropractors and their tricks for years. Discussing anything controversial with them is like trying to pin Jello to the wall with a thumbtack. They are so brainwashed that they don't even realize that they are evading the truth at all costs.

At least you do admit I'm right for a few seconds, but you just can't accept that fact and have to feebly attempt to weasel your way out of it: "Yes, from the extremely limited examples that you provided above, you are right."

In a certain sort of way, I'm rather pleased that you are the one exposing chiropractic's disingenuity, because you parrot the party line so well. Lots of chiropractors don't even do it that well. Unfortunately for yourself you have chosen to defend an outdated version of what many chiropractors still believe. Fortunately more and more of them are abandoning that indefensible position. -- Fyslee 19:19, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

You are so "oversensitive" that you are complaining about me. That's called being "thin-skinned. You conveniently forget all your easily documentable vandalism, POV edits, personal attacks, and all the "hate" remarks you have made about me while following me around Misplaced Pages. You're an expert at attempting to whitewash chiropractic. You've really made me feel very welcome here!

True, I did start out in Misplaced Pages making personal attacks for about 4 or 5 days, but that ceased immediately after I was told about Misplaced Pages ettiquette. Since then, I have made no personal attacks and no "hate" remarks. Not to you, not to anyone. If anything, I've been fostering fair, rational discussion to create better Misplaced Pages articles.

Now this is not the place to post these kinds of discussions, so I will stop here. If you have a personal matter to discuss rationally with me, please reserve it to my or your talk pages.Levine2112 00:54, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Complaints by Levine2112:

• Rude comments and personal attacks from User:Fyslee and others against User:Levine2112 on Fyslee's discussion page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette_alerts&diff=36305362&oldid=36300978

• More rude comments from User:Fyslee about User:Levine2112. Please see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette_alerts&curid=1573552&diff=37003907&oldid=36925942

Don't try to play innocent with us.... "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." -- Fyslee 00:27, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

• This is the largest and best quality study on this subject I can think of right now. What's interesting is that it didn't intend to focus on chiropractors at all, but they unavoidably came into the picture. Its purpose was "to identify cases of injury involving treatment by physical therapists," but also "to review previously reported cases in which injuries were attributed to MCS,....and to describe the risks and benefits of MCS." That of course meant a thorough review of the literature.

The summary:

Manipulation of the cervical spine (MCS) is used in the treatment of people with neck pain and muscle-tension headache. The purposes of this article are to review previously reported cases in which injuries were attributed to MCS, to identify cases of injury involving treatment by physical therapists, and to describe the risks and benefits of MCS. One hundred seventy-seven published cases of injury reported in 116 articles were reviewed. The cases were published between 1925 and 1997. The most frequently reported injuries involved arterial dissection or spasm, and lesions of the brain stem. Death occurred in 32 (18%) of the cases. Physical therapists were involved in less than 2% of the cases, and no deaths have been attributed to MCS provided by physical therapists. Although the risk of injury associated with MCS appears to be small, this type of therapy has the potential to expose patients to vertebral artery damage that can be avoided with the use of mobilization (nonthrust passive movements). The literature does not demonstrate that the benefits of MCS outweigh the risks. Several recommendations for future studies and for the practice of MCS are discussed.

Key Words: Effectiveness, Physical therapy, Risk, Spinal manipulation, Vertebrobasilar accident. -- Fyslee 19:37, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

(Levine2112's remarks copied here for ease of continuing the discussion.)

Given your stance on "apples and oranges" above, the comparison here to PTs seems strangely convenient (especially coming from you, a PT). Also, I read this article that you referenced above and could not find what you quoted. I did a text search on the page, read it again, and scanned it several more time and still I could not find this quote. Please explain. Levine2112 18:58, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

An understanding of the concept of "apples and oranges" comparisons must have escaped you.

This is a perfectly proper situation for comparison, since the identical treatment method is being applied by different professions, and the results are compared. You can't get it any better than that. Apples are being compared to apples.

The "quote" was a paraphrase from the summary, and shouldn't have been in quotation marks. Now you have the whole thing and can read it. I'd suggest you read the published study. It's very interesting and informative.

To make sure you don't misunderstand my opinion on this matter, don't think PTs or MDs get off the hook! I'm an equal opportunity skeptic....;-).

My opinion on cervical manipulation:

• Before adjusting the numbers according to the findings by Terrett, it looked like DCs were involved in more cases than was actually the case. The revised figures made DCs look a very little bit better, but were still far too high. A casual glance at these numbers could lead to the partially incorrect conclusion, that manipulation, when performed by a chiropractor, is much more dangerous than when performed by other practitioners. No, that would not be entirely correct. They should be seen more as a reflexion of the fact that manipulation is most often performed by DCs.

• Regardless of who performs the manipulation - the more it gets done, the greater the risk. Sooner or later someone is going to get hurt. It needs to be used much more judiciously, by whoever it is that uses it, than most DCs use it today. If a PT or MD were to use spinal manipulation in precisely the same way, extent and frequency that DCs do, they would be exposing their patients to the same risks that chiropractic patients are exposed to every day. The statistics would then reveal more injuries from PTs and MDs.

• While the technique itself is potentially problematic, the attitude of most chiropractors towards it makes it doubly so when applied by them.

• Here is a conclusion from the summary of the article above:

• "The literature does not demonstrate that the benefits of MCS outweigh the risks."

• Source: Dangers of chiropractic therapy -- Fyslee 19:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Sentence 3

"...Also, stroke appears to be a random event in people of all ages, including babies."

• Not so. It is far from simply random, with many documented risk factors. One of those - the subject of this section - is often deliberately and carefully applied in often inexcusable situations. That places it in a very different class than the other risk factors. It is directly linked as an independent risk factor. Here is just one study right to the point: Spinal manipulative therapy is an independent risk factor for vertebral artery dissection.

Suggested improvements

Simply drop those two sentences. They are inaccurate and don't apply, plus their only purpose is a strongly biased POV attempt to downplay the risks by making invalid comparisons. This is a typical chiropractic attempt to distract attention from the issue at hand. The fact that the risks are "rare" is mentioned twice should be enough to place things in their proper perspective. -- Fyslee 07:33, 27 January 2006 (UTC)