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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement page.

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Viriditas

Viriditas has accused someone of being an SPA but did not indicate who was the SPA. I asked Viriditas who he/she is accusing of being an SPA but he/she has deleted this section at his/her talk page. What are editors supposed to do when other editor makes accusations but don't want discuss the accusations they make? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:19, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

So, V writes in an edit summary 'SPA' but you don't know who he means - his edit is reverted, so the article has not changed over it, he hasn't made a specific alegation against a specific person, he hasn't repeated the alegation and he is not using this opportunity to hound anyone or make long talkpage rants. So basically it is like it never happened, and you still don't know if he meant anyone in specific, or even just made a mistake.

The situation resolved itself, V hasn't named anyone and hasn't pursued the matter. So why are you? The answer to your question, in this case, is simply, get over it.

If someone uses alegations against unnamed persons to alter an article, that probably wouldn't be acceptable. However all you have here is a single (reverted) edit summary, and nothing else. Come back when you have observed a pattern that you can illustrate with diffs. Weakopedia (talk) 04:33, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Lar's comments in uninvolved section

With the strength of the Lar/WMC issues running at arbcom. Can someone please move Lar's comments to the involved section. Polargeo (talk) 11:42, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I can only call Lar's further posting in the uninvolved section as I plainly see it as arogance and bullying. Polargeo (talk) 11:51, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Polargeo, he is uninvolved. Just because a bunch of editors scream involved and take issue with him does not make him involved. Bozmo has had the same accusations levelled at him, is he also involved? Just leave it for Arbcom to decide mark nutley (talk) 11:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

No MN this is not so simple as that. As I have said on the main page it is a major case at arbcom currently running with many serious and valid points that need to be answered. This is not a standard ATren "I say you are involved" or even a simple Lar "you have edited a CC article so you are involved" case so please do not dismiss this in the usual way. Any admin worth their salt should recuse themselves in these circumstances or face some serious come back Polargeo (talk) 12:02, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

The nwhy are you not asking Bozmo to do the same? It is the same thing for both. In fact any admin who posts over there would now count as involved. Just let it go, Arbcom will be handing us all our butts soon enough. mark nutley (talk) 12:26, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

No. There are specific reasons why Lar should not comment in cases involving WMC at present. Polargeo (talk) 12:32, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Lar's last attempt to take an administrative act regarding WMC was immediately overturned by another admin on the basis of Lar's clear involvement (). I expect that any future attempt by Lar to take similar action will be similarly overturned, and I also expect that he knows this as well as everyone else does. In other words, while it is inappropriate and borderline-POINTy for him to continue to comment in the uninvolved admins' section, I doubt that anyone will bother to do anything about it unless he actually tries to take a further action. Other editors realize that trying to get Lar to acknowledge his erroneous interpretation is, at this point, futile, and it probably will take an ArbCom finding to get him to see the inconsistency in his position.

I believe that in general the other editors on the CC probation page are well aware of Lar's biases and degree of involvement; his continued insistence on misplacing his posts probably diminishes the credence given his statements. A concise, clear, and civil advisory note describing Lar's biases and involvement and reminding uninvolved admins to take his putative lack of involvement with a suitably large grain of salt would not be out of place, reminding genuinely uninvolved administrators that they should not construe Lar's comments as contributing to or obstructing consensus among them. (Place the note in the 'Comments by others' section, of course — it's not appropriate to meet his misuse of the probation page with more of the same type of abuse.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:04, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Most of this is just plain misrepresentation. Lar has taken several actions against "skeptical" editors -- he sanctioned Mark several times. This only comes up when he tries to evenly enforce both sides. The environment is so skewed in this enforcement area that even-handedness is made to appear like bias. Admins like TOAT and Stephen enhance this skewed environment by making unsupported assertions as if they were fact, as above. ATren (talk) 13:48, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

@ATren. Why do you always try to bring this back to WP:Battleground when it is not necessary? Polargeo (talk) 13:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I note that since the CC probation came into effect at the start of this year, the only use of admin tools (at least, of blocking or protection) in the CC area by Lar has been his block of WMC. I've amply supported my statements about Lar's bias and involvement through diffs and log entries at the climate change arbitration. For that matter, I even provided – in the very comment to which you replied – a link to a block log entry where another admin overturned Lar's action on the basis of Lar's apparent involvement. While you're free to weigh the evidence differently, it is quite false to claim that my statements are unsupported. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:42, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

TOAT, look at the archives of the cases. He was frequently involved in the discussions which led to sanctions or warnings to several "skeptical" editors, and he was usually supportive of those sanctions even if he didn't close the case. In particular, IIRC, he's been very strong in his opinions on Marknutley, TGL and GoRight -- in fact, GoRight filed an enforcement request against him alleging bias the other way.

The block on WMC was a one hour block, and it was a direct result of disruptive behavior by WMC which had every appearance of baiting. In fact, 2/0's overturn (with literally minutes remaining) says much more about 2/0's bias than Lar's.

As is usual for WMC's supporters, you amplify the response and ignore the trigger, including the multiple warnings Lar gave before blocking, and you ignore all other evidence of evenhandedness by Lar. ATren (talk) 15:56, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

(ec) @TOAT: They're misleading, though. First, acting as an admin doesn't only mean using the block button... imposing sanctions or restrictions after a consensus among uninvolved admins was reached is also acting as an admin. All of us uninvolved admins have done that more often than we've actually blocked or protected. Second, you and others make much of that block being overturned but you neglect to mention the circumstances around that overturn, namely who overturned it, what their relationship to other parties is, and the result of the discussion at AN/I. It's not nearly as clear cut as you paint it, and you mislead when you leave that out. I stand by that block, it was the right thing to do, even if it got overturned. That's not a sign of anything other than an admin trying to do the right thing for this project as a whole. This whole thing is a last gasp, I have a great deal of confidence in ArbCom's ability to see through the smoke this faction has been laying down. ++Lar: t/c 16:03, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Lar, have you considered the fact that your "defenders" all come from one side? That usually indicates that that's the side you are playing for... EdChem (talk) 16:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

And have you considered that his attackers all come from one side? That usually indicates that the complaints themselves are frivolous and biased. ATren (talk) 16:57, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think either one of those assertions is true. At Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Lar, a number of previously uninvolved and "unaffiliated" editors agreed with concerns that Lar had become inappropriately vested in the personality politics and content disputes in this area. Similarly, a number of previously "unaffiliated" users opined that Lar had been unfairly targeted. Neither Lar's "defenders" nor those who have raised concerns about his actions in the area are limited entirely to one "side" of this topic, as best I can tell. MastCell  19:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

• I would draw attention to the case main page, where it states (in part, under a bullet point), "Until this case is finally decided, the existing community sanctions and procedures for Climate change and Global warming articles remain in full effect, and editors on these articles are expected to be on their best behavior." I do not see any restriction on any party acting as they were immediately before the case was activated. I have commented on several requests made since the case opened, involving editors I have commented upon on the ArbCom pages, and my "uninvolved" status has not been questioned. Therefore, it seems that this notion that involvement in the ArbCom case makes an admin involved for the purposes of enforcement has not been applied previously - although the contention that Lar is not an uninvolved admin was made prior to and was part of the case for a RfAR - and is based upon the individual and not the principle. In summary, I do not think a claim that participation in the ArbCom case makes an admin involved can be sustained. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:10, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Even uninvolved admins should not close threads when challenged

This is not accetable by normal wikipedia rules. Seek consensus amongst admins first. Polargeo (talk) 16:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Even if acceptable it has now been challenged so it is now unacceptable to edit the close back again without consensus. Polargeo (talk) 16:16, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Regarding ChrisO's self enforcement request

Whoever closed it maybe should sign their close, it's common practice to do that. For the record I agree with that close, this isn't the place for reassurance. ++Lar: t/c 10:12, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, BozMo. ++Lar: t/c 10:33, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, thanks for the reminder! --BozMo talk 10:58, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Remove uninvolved admin section

In lieu of the arbcom decision the uninvolved admin section should be removed altogether. We cannot have individual admins moving the comments of other admins based on their own interpretation of the rules. Polargeo (talk) 13:32, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

What interpretation is that? Do not comment if your A not an admin B Involved, stephan is and t osay he is not is ludicrous. He was being disruptive even posting in there mark nutley (talk) 13:48, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

And many times Lar has been disruptive posting there in my opinion. Also in my opinion Lar moved my comments when I was backing you up and I was not directly involved in the situation at all. Therefore the "uninvolved" admin section is currently nonsense and held only by Lar's tactics of ever so carefully never editing a CC article and using this as his trump card. It is clear that this section holds no weight whatsoever at present except what can be gained through muscle and bullying. Polargeo (talk) 14:12, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

The probation page still states:

"For the purpose of imposing sanctions under this provision, an administrator will be considered "uninvolved" if he or she is not engaged in a current, direct, personal conflict on the topic with the user receiving sanctions (note: enforcing this provision will not be considered to be participation in a dispute)."

and by that criteria Lars move was in error. But he seems to think otherwise, however, he hasn't made any attempt to change the stated criteria that I'm aware of. Maybe arbcom will void that or whatever... patience :) Vsmith (talk) 14:35, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

That needs changing to match how things actually operate here, and we've been remiss in not doing that sooner. (policy here at WP is mostly descriptive, so where it's inaccurately describing how things are, it should be updated) May I suggest a separate section below where we hammer out an acceptable wording? ++Lar: t/c 14:54, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

The stated "definition" of involved has been simply ignored and "how things actually operate here" may be the problem. When admins knowingly ignore stated "policy" for this area and redefine things to suit their own views without seeking to clarify or even discuss the "definition" given, there is a problem. Seems one of the 3 arbcom requests leading to the current case directly involved this "definition problem" and yet the admins working this probation area have not seen fit to discuss or modify the "definition" given even after repeated disputes over it and some 7-8 months of ignoring it. But, likely rather late now and the current overdo arbcom decision may prove it moot — although if arbcom doesn't replace this or clarify things relating to it, then we should "hammer out an acceptable wording". Vsmith (talk) 15:30, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes Lar was in error as he was with his previous move of my comments. His success that time seemed to ride on the fact that I had attempted to defend WMC against his obvious bias (therefore I was cabal!) and that I had protested a little too pointedly against him. Let's hope the arbcom decision comes really quickly and puts a stop to this ridiculous nonsense. Polargeo (talk) 14:45, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

As the current sanction under discussion is site wide related to CC articles then according to what you just posted VSmith then Stephan is involved mark nutley (talk) 14:47, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

In that case it includes all people involved in the CC arb case so that gets us nowhere. Polargeo (talk) 14:49, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

The arb case is not a CC related article and i doubt anyone is about to slap NPOv tags on it :) mark nutley (talk) 14:50, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

How about placing a {{Expand}} on the ArbCom PD page? :) A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:43, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

It got reverted. ++Lar: t/c 15:23, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

The uninvolved admins section has previously been notable for polite and respectful discussion between the parties regarding the enforcement of the probation as regards the specific request. It has only become an area of contention when parties not considered uninvolved have posted there, or otherwise have posted there in regard to issues not specific to the request, or have subsequently been subject to allegations of non-uninvolvedness, therefore to remove that preserve where sysops can discuss the request without distraction is to allow the recent efforts at "modifying" the process to succeed in destroying it. The only drawback, until recently, to the section was that it lead to prevarication and delay before enactment was agreed - although it had also largely stopped the claims of biased unilateral actions by sysops. The uninvolved admins section had worked very well and instead of removing it there should be the decision to allow it to continue as before the Lar RfC where, it should be strongly noted, that no consensus that Lar was involved was found. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:37, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

LHVU, I think you are right. I have a question for the other admins active in this forum: BozMo and NW, and any others who drop by, why is it only Lar and LHVU who are enforcing the restriction on involved admins from acting as admins in these enforcement actions? Why aren't you two helping move Stephan and Polargeo's comments from the "Results" section? If either one of you were to do that, even once, it would end the entire dispute immediately, because Stephan and Polargeo would realize that they weren't going to be allowed to get away with disrupting the forum. If you two, BozMo and NW, have moved Stephan's and Polargeo's comments from the section, then I apologize for my presumption. Cla68 (talk) 22:03, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Lovely two of Lar's strongest supporters and offwiki chums (Cla and LHvU) put their particular spin on things. I think you must be having your own little joke between yourselves that you have managed to stick a cabal label on truly independent editors whilst you act so strongly together. Polargeo (talk) 10:21, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Presuambly because they don't believe Lar's assertions of non-involvement, or don't accept his assertions of Stephans involvement William M. Connolley (talk) 09:53, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

This is just a load of nonsense it is based on Lar backed up by his regular supporters setting the standards. That is why an arbcom case judgement is needed. If any of them had actually looked at my edits instead of just having a knee jerk reaction that because I had a major disagreement with Lar's position with regard to WMC plus some article overlap I was therefore obviously "cabal" then they would have seen a neutral independent editor who was not primarily on wikipedia for climate change edits in any way. Unfortunately the inevitable CC battleground reaction kicked in from Lar and his supporters (ATren, Cla, The locust and LHvU being the prime candidates - don't ask me to provide diffs the page isn't long enough). Polargeo (talk) 10:02, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Franamax Involved

As User:Franamax has been busy telling arbcom that I am involved based on the fact that I have ever edited CC articles (,) I thought I should point out that he has added more text specifically on CC than I ever have. See his addditions , , . These make him clearly involved by Lar's standards. I think Lar is wrong with his standards but we cannot have admins setting restrictions that just benefit themselves. Polargeo (talk) 09:45, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I look forward to Lar moving his comments up a section. Polargeo (talk) 09:47, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

, William M. Connolley (talk) 09:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

redacted stuff removed Jesus man just give it a rest mark nutley (talk) 10:29, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

In reply to MN's WP:PA a personal attack by me against MN has been narrowly averted by a rare injection of common sense , oh and the fact that I let personal attacks slide off my back like water off a duck rather than starting RFE's every time. Or adding lists of dubious diffs to Arbcom cases. Polargeo (talk) 10:37, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

• Come on. If I move Lar's or Franamax's comments I will be punished by Lar's supporters. Lar should not continue as uninvolved with regard to WMC (at least until the arbcom judgement) and Franamax should not be commenting as uninvolved at all by Lar's self defined standards. Let us have some consistancy here. Polargeo (talk) 10:37, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Diffs of a single substantial edit from last September? Any signs of that edit being part of a controversy along factional lines? Come on, this looks like a bit of a POINT violation. If you yourself think the criterion that would stamp him "involved" on this basis is wrong, then it's not much use pressing for it here, is it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:19, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
    • This is the whole point. I do have a problem that Lar seems to have defined where the boundary lies, and it is at a place that suits himself. If you can find such a substanital edit directly on climate change from me such as Franamax has made then I would be very impressed. Some consistancy is needed here to prevent this becoming a Lar fiefdom. Can you find a single one of my article edits that comes as close to peddling climate change views as this single edit by Franamax? I actually think on this particular issue Lar is involved and Franamax is not but if we apply the Lar criteria that he uses regularly to remove opposition to himself then Franamax is involved. I just notice Lar does not apply this criteria when an ally comments on any situation. Polargeo (talk) 12:18, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
      • Yes, I guess that is the whole WP:POINT then. Your argument may well be right (or not, I have no idea personally, I'm neither familiar with your history in this domain nor with Fran's), but whatever the merits of the argument, this way of pursuing it is sorta the textbook example of WP:POINT tactics (i.e. arguing an issue not because you're convinced of it but in order to reduce ad absurdum somebody else's position). Please drop that, it's not productive. That said, I've gone on record myself saying that Lar shouldn't act as an admin here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:40, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
        • I am not presently here on the talkpage based on WP:POINT, if I was trying to disrupt I would be moving Lar's comments myself so please do not dismiss my arguments based on POINT. I am here trying to argue a case that is being consistently ignored whilst admins allow Lar to move other admin's comments on whim and define who is uninvolved himself whislt commenting on cases he should clearly not be, without so much as a peep from other admins. Polargeo (talk) 14:41, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry if you think it`s a PA, it`s not. It is pointing out that these continued rants against lar are pointless and reflect badly on you. Leave it for the Arbcom case to sort out mark nutley (talk) 11:16, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

@Mn: Of course it was a personal attack, so you might please consider stopping it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:19, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

It was no more of a PA than ChrisO's comment - and it is unseemly for you focus only on issues coming from one side of the argument, and ignoring the same from the other side. GregJackP Boomer! 12:36, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Darn it. I will back you up a hundred percent that WMC should not have refactored your comment, he was completely wrong. Please don't fight every battle with a partisan hat on. Polargeo (talk) 12:45, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

(ec - to Polar)You and I appear to agree on a number of issues -- other than thinking that "involved" is a magic word here. You have made your point often now (reaching "quite enough" status), and adding more is unlikely to convince anyone at all of much <g>. (appending to MN) - the term "quite enough" applies to this entire topic. Collect (talk) 11:21, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I shall also pass on the supplying of diffs, but there are other "uninvolved admins" who have edited CC/AGW pages in the past; 2over0 and BozMo. They were also the admins in situation when I first started adminning, and I found them helpful and courteous. When, later, the practice of discussion between uninvolved admins became common, they were neutral and fair in their commentary and were proactive in working toward a consensus. Thus I never had reason to question their status. (It should be noted, however, that some editors have questioned their neutrality, including the current Arbcom case.) I suggest that uncontroversial edits, plus an apparent desire to work together with other admins to find consensus does not disqualify an admin from participating in that section - but being a major contributor and editing toward a recognised viewpoint, or being being disruptive and combatative otherwise does. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:07, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I totally support your viewpoint. But I must contend that it should not be applied or decided upon by Lar (or you) and it should not rest upon a few article edits. For instance I was never given the opportunity to show that I was fair because when I tried to be so I was opposed Lar. I was put firmly into the involved category simply because I had opposed Lar about his obviously involved status with regard to WMC. Therfore this needs arbcom not LHvU judgement. Polargeo (talk) 13:14, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Hey, my internet is back on. What a time for it to quit! Polargeo, I don't think you're being helpful here. If you disagree with definitions, it's much better to raise them in a general fashion, rather than engage in point-scoring exercises. I did indeed add text on the relation between ozone depletion and Antarctic temperatures, I saw it in Nature and asked an editor about it before adding it. An editor who I knew had expertise in the area, it was, let me think - oh yes, Polargeo. But why didn't you include this, where I added the section on ice mass balance? You must remember it, you made 12 edits just after, adding sources and rewording it. (And it was a pleasure working with you BTW)

My assessment of you as "involved" revolves largely around two factors. First, you are a researcher in the field (literally) thus I have a reasonable apprehension of bias. That may not be totally fair, I'm sure you'd rather be judged by your on-wiki actions only, but nevertheless going by my "personally willing to sanction" definition of uninvolved, I think it would be a bad scene if you were to block someone in the CC area. The second factor is similarly nebulous: your vocal and continued opposition to the sanctions regime itself. You have expressed your opinion that the regime is illegitimate and was foisted on the community by a small group manufacturing local consensus. I'm not particularly comfortable with the way the sanctions were finalized, I just did my best to give input on the structure at the time. It's unfortunate that you didn't know what was coming down the pipe, it would have been nice to have much more input at the time - but it is what it is and we need to make it work. I don't feel that you have sufficient commitment to upholding the sanctions regime to add input in the "uninvolved" section. Your initiation of this very thread casts doubt on your motives - do you wish a declaration that I am "involved" or do you wish to discuss what "uninvolved" means? Your title indicates you wish a judgement on my status. Your content however seems to be more digging at Lar. Incidentally, I raised the issue of my edits to Antarctica on the very page where the sanctions were discussed and enacted, no-one had a big problem at the time. I think this is closable as: I'm uninvolved; you think Lar is involved; in retrospect, the definition could have been written better in the statement of sanctions. Franamax (talk) 15:24, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

@Franamax. You are completely wrong. I am a glaciologist not a climate scientist. Please look at my GA which is based on my research Pine Island Glacier and try to find anything about climate change in that article, or for that matter any one of my newly created articles on glaciers (]), there is nothing. However, you put in loads of text on climate change into an Featured Article (Antarctica) without citing a single reference. As an Antarctic glaciologist and wikipedian I then had to tidy up these additions, hence my edits, which you were very pleased with at the time. I think this proves that I am here to improve wikipedia not to add a POV. Polargeo (talk) 15:36, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, where did I say you were a climate scientist? I'm well aware of your work. The PIG has seen increased ice flow in recent times, and this is intimately bound up with global warming. The increased flow may or not be a consequence of AGW, or maybe it's that volcano. It's still an interconnected field, more so than, say, running a machine tool or cutting hair. Please don't rewrite history, go back and look at our discussions on Talk:Antarctica, we were trying to clarify which Antarctic ice could contribute to sea level rise and how likely it is that the ice cuold turn to water. I was very clear at the time that I wrote the section as "free verse" so as to properly outline the concepts, and I sought your input as to veracity and where it would be appropriate to use some of the 2 dozen or so sources I'd assembled on the talk page. Later I added verbiage about the relation between ozone depletion and measured temperature, in the same fashion. Every single word was backed by sources of impeccable quality, which sources I clearly noted on talk. It was a collaborative effort, a successful one that I'm proud of. I think it very much improved a featured article which to this day gives the world accurate and neutral information. I certainly didn't anticipate that you would retrospectively claim you "had to tidy up". Should I simply avoid you in future? I think you are a great editor, I just don't think you should be acting as an admin in climate-related areas. This seems to be straying off-topic, or I'm not sure what exactly the topic is. What resolution do you wish from this thread? Franamax (talk) 16:19, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

All great stuff. But why exactly aren't you "involved"? William M. Connolley (talk) 16:22, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Because I've never expressed an opinion on the "A" in AGW, never added material subject to any dispute whatsoever, never taken a sustained interest in articles remotely close to the issue (save Antartica, where I added facts gleaned from Nature), never had editorial disputes with the main players in the CC arena? Franamax (talk) 16:30, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

If "never expressing an opinion on the A" is a criterion, nearly all qualified editors will count as involved. But note that Lar has expressed such an opinion - so why does that not make him involved? More generally, the requirement to chose between improving articles or administration means we lose every knowledgeable admin for one task or the other. That leaves the ignorant ones, who, not recognizing problems, are under less compunction to fix articles, but also are less able distinguish between constructive and destructive contributions. I do not find this a healthy recipe. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:47, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Franamax, you should know that their definition of "involved" is "having any opinion whatsoever that is counter to their own, including opinions on enforcement". So naturally, in their eyes, you are. ATren (talk) 16:51, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Do you read what you reply to? If yes, read again. If no, please indicate this so that people are not confused. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:07, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Stephan Schulz: That's quite an ironic comment considering ATren's post was addressed to Franamax. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:12, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I usually tend to resist linear thinking along the lines of "If A is B, then C must be B as well" and try to look at this kind of thing as "on-balance". IMO Lar is a known quantity and has expressed a consistent and cogent viewpoint. I can deal with that. On the general issue, it seems to be the nature of the beast. You go through a week of hell at RFA, then it gets worse. It's distressing enough to have to sit back from fixing an article because you are riding herd on squabbling editors. Then you have the attempts to paint you as involved simply because you have become familiar with a dispute and take a stance on the underlying behaviour. I think it just comes with the territory of adminship beyond page moves and deleting CSDable articles. I know that right now I'm thinking of calling Telus up and asking them to re-disconnect my DSL line. :) Franamax (talk) 17:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

@F: that is nice. When has PG done these things? @AT: do you think you could leave out the waste-of-time snarking? William M. Connolley (talk) 17:04, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I've outlined quite clearly above the main factors I consider to arrive at my definition for Polargeo. On balance, I find it much preferable that he not act as an uninvolved admin in this area. Yes, my definitions are flexible - I try to be guided by common sense. Franamax (talk) 17:21, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

You've totally failed to produce a convincing case for PG's involvement. You've invented an arbitrary criterion (research in a related field - so what?). Your own rather un-nice behaviour is in stark contrast to the arbs on this case - see CHL at Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate_change/Proposed_decision#Re-Up William M. Connolley (talk) 17:38, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Mother Mary an Jozef, people... drop this stuff and go do something else. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:25, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd be very worried if the definition of 'uninvolved' (or 'neutral' for that matter) became, "From what I know, I just can't decide if man is contributing to global warming or not". That sounds to me like either a very biassed or a very uninformed view of the topic. An uninvolved, neutral (or ignorant) point of view is not what we need, it's the application of WP editing policies to the existing, verifiable body of knowledge, and, where relevant, to its critics. --Nigelj (talk) 19:31, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with that. I consider myself an "alarmist" with regard to the likely impact, and consider the science pretty settled at this point. That has absolutely no bearing on my involvement or lack thereof, nor should it. ++Lar: t/c 19:56, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Please remove all of Lar's comment with regard to WMC

All of Lar's "uninvolved" comments with regard to WMC are completely untennable until an arbcom decision is made. Yes WMC will likely recieve a ban but for the sake of drama minimisation please remove all of them. Polargeo (talk) 13:21, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Beat on the messenger would you? WMC is the root cause to these issues. Temporarily ban WMC now and end the disruption. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 13:27, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes and ban you too whilst we are at it. That has no bearing on my comment and is the usual smokescreen put up by Lar's supporters. Polargeo (talk) 13:30, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Unilateral actions versus consensus.

JEHochman has just decided to unilaterally impose a sanction on WMC, in the face of a consensus just about arrived at to do something rather different. I'm not sure that's a productive approach. I've moved my comments on his action from there to here on talk: ++Lar: t/c 18:36, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

• I don't think you have consensus for either of these unilateral actions. The latter, especially, seems to be imposing a much more severe restriction on WMC than the consensus here before you decided to act unilaterally. I suggest you participate in the consensus finding process on an equal footing with other uninvolved admins instead of trying to impose things. That's not helpful and might well lead to wheel warring. The sanctions found here using consensus tend to stick. ++Lar: t/c 18:31, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

It is not severe to give WMC a break of a few days from the CC melee. ArbCom will post their decision soon, I think. I am planning to give a similar restriction to anybody else who persists in argumentum ad nauseum, wikilawyering, battling or similar behaviors. (I cast my eye towards you. Take the hint.) Jehochman 18:39, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

You are not the sheriff. No one of us is, we use consensus. Stop trying to be one. I suggest you participate in the consensus finding process on an equal footing with other uninvolved admins instead of trying to impose things. ++Lar: t/c 18:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, no. The probation says "any uninvolved administrator". It does not say "a consensus of uninvolved administrators". We already have a severe problem of administrators who's status is ambiguous, and who's participation here is not accepted as objective. Considering that your actions are under scrutiny by ArbCom, that much evidence has been posted alleging bias on your part, I think it is untenable for you to continue participating here as an administrator. Actions by you only breed more conflict, which is not good for the encyclopedia. If you are wise, you will recuse. These pages will not fall apart if you leave. Somebody else will take your place. Jehochman 18:47, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think I have to remind you, that you yourself are not without critics in this area (raises hand). Glass houses and all that. Arkon (talk) 18:52, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Could you link to the relevant section of evidence in the arbitration case? Jehochman 18:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

That may have been the worse 'hey look over there' I've ever seen. The only reason you aren't there is because you ran for the hills the first time you came under fire. Arkon (talk) 19:55, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

@JEH: I think it's rules lawyering at this point, after months of successfully using a consensus driven process, to insist that you can suddenly come in and unilaterally act. That's true regardless of whether I continue to participate in the uninvolved admin section or not. You are not Mighty Mouse, flying in (without context) to save the day. Stop trying. ++Lar: t/c 18:53, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I do not think past performance of this board can be held up as a model of success. We'll have a short time to wait until ArbCom renders a ruling. Pressure is building and people are acting even worse than usual. We need to keep a lid on this for just a few more days. (I'd appreciate if you'd do your part by removing your personal insults. It is not acceptable to call somebody "Mighty Mouse".) The insidious thing about these conflicts is that people get excited and say and do all sorts of things the normally wouldn't, but they have trouble seeing themselves objectively. Please, please, please trust your friends when they tell you that you're getting overwrought. Jehochman 18:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Is it an insult to say that a person is not a particular thing? That seems rather an odd request on your part. I'm not aware of any of my friends telling me I'm overwrought, although I wouldn't be surprised if you got such input yourself. This is, I think, the third time you've acted unilaterally here, and each time it has been singularly unhelpful. You really ought to stop. I'd be happier to step away for a while if you were participating the way the rest of us do but this sort of thing is worrisome. ++Lar: t/c 19:10, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I consider it an insult the way you worded it. Is it expensive for you to upgrade the civility of your comment? Jehochman 19:14, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Jehochman, the probation rules permit administrators to act unilaterally without consensus. That is a subtly different thing from acting unilaterally against an obvious consensus of administrators. This is a minor enforcement request with little actual disagreement about the appropriate sanction. I believe you are needlessly multiplying the drama here. It is not helpful and you should stop. Thparkth (talk) 19:01, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you involved or uninvolved in the conflict? Jehochman 19:02, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I am as uninvolved as they come (and not an administrator). Thparkth (talk) 19:03, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Good, so your opinion needs careful consideration. It doesn't matter whether you are an administrator (to me, anyhow). Perhaps I should make clear that my restriction is not based narrowly on the instant thread. It is based on the nature of comments I've seen WMC making around wiki, and the entire history of this conflict. I will consider modifying or removing the sanction if WMC asks me to do so. He may very well see the wisdom in removing himself from the battle for a short time. Jehochman 19:06, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

So you first unilaterally impose a sanction against the developing consensus of what to do, followed by unilaterally unimposing it if asked by the sanctionee? I think you're getting farther and farther afield now. You are not the boss of all the other uninvolved admins, who have been working here peacably. ++Lar: t/c 19:12, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

(@Jeh) I think in practice several people would benefit from taking a voluntary few days off from CC articles and enforcement at this point. The dramaometer is pointing to "overload". Nothing productive is going to happen until ArbCom publishes the proposed decision. It would be better for many people's wiki-careers if they just backed off of the whole topic area for a little while. The question for those of us who feel this way is, how to offer that advice in a way that does not seem like an attack on those people? And how can they accept it without feeling that they are conceding wrongdoing in some way? Thparkth (talk) 19:16, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Excellent suggestion. That's exactly what I was thinking. Perhaps we could give out some "no fault" restrictions saying, "while you may have done nothing wrong, we want you to disengage from the fight on these pages until ArbCom posts a final decision, and we are ready to block you if you refuse to do so". Would you like to assemble a list? Other clearly uninvolved editors are welcome to comment on how we could best implement this (and improve the initial implementation with respect to WMC). Jehochman 19:20, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I endorse the suggestion but a couple caveats, both of which I think are reasonable.

First, Timing. Identify an end time, and include a calendar date, with a whichever comes first clause. While I anticipate Arbcom results in a few days, and could support a freeze on CC editing for a few days, if a few days turned into a month or more, it would be untenable. So after defining the event triggering the end of the restriction (whether first or final draft), add a clause that says if that event hasn't occurred in say, 30 days, something else will be considered.

Second Scope. I've voluntarily adopted a no CC article editing ban, but not CC talk. You obviously intend this to cover CC articles. What about talk? What about this sanctions page? What about WP pages such as ANI? (Would it make sense to create special page just to give people a place to vent, and a page that might be archived later, with the ability to mine it for useful comments, should any occur?)

Finally, and independently of how this proposal is structured, please ensure that there are sysops on call when the proposed decision is revealed. It isn't hard to imagine that an editor seeing a proposed long ban might decide to make the most of the time until the ban starts.

As to the list, add me to the list. While I've worked hard to be neutral, and hope I've been a positive contribution to the CC area, I predict that if editors are allowed to self-decide their status, the list will be quite short. SPhilbrickT 20:08, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I would be willing not to edit CC articles and talk pages (excepting ArbCom discussion) provided that everyone else (in both factions) are under the same restrictions. GregJackP Boomer! 19:46, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I've highlighted this problem before. We have a probation that is specifically intended to encourage administrators to take action in this area, yet some administrators have persistently misinterpreted the clearly worded probation so as to mean the opposite: to wit, that no administrator may take action in the area without first jumping through extra bureaucratic hoops. This is wrong, and I do hope the arbitration committee will say so clearly and provide clarification. Actively hampering administrative action in an area that badly needs it is very counter-productive. Tasty monster (=TS ) 19:31, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Without commenting on the question of unilateralness and all that for the moment, just a question of clarification to Jehochman: do you intend this ban (or the others) to last all the time until the final decision of the arbs? Because you were talking somewhere of "a few days". But the way Arbcom has been working, "a few days" is a realistic timeframe until the first draft. Until the posting of the actual decision, we are probably talking several weeks, right? Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:41, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I read it as until the decision, not until the first (or subsequent) draft. GregJackP Boomer! 19:44, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I think we should apply a "no fault" sanction to a list of editors (including WMC), asking them not to touch any CC pages (except arbitration) until a decision is rendered. If it takes ArbCom too long to reach a decision and this restriction becomes more onerous than we had intended, we can lift the restrictions. We do our part to end the conflict, and ArbCom should be expected to do their part. How about we allow a voluntary sign up. If need be, uninvolved administrators may add names to the list. Jehochman 19:57, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm fairly uninvolved in the whole climate matter though I started following it a week or so ago, and FWIW, I think the whole matter is currently miles beyond ridiculously out-of-hand. It looks like Jehochman's sanction is a bit of a shift in gears, as far as administration. If so, then it does suck that there has to be a "first victim", but I think the project is better off if it becomes known that decisive administrative actions (such as Jehochman's) could become the new norm. BigK HeX (talk) 19:55, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Also .... I think it's kinda nuts that there's not more solid information on when ArbCom's decision will be rendered since the last update (AFAIK) seemed to indicate a decision was imminent two weeks ago. The "pending" decision seems to be a reason cited for people to wait on a lot of things. BigK HeX (talk) 19:58, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Define "reasonable time", when that is cleared, i'll sign up. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:57, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Two weeks should be more than enough. I hope it would be much shorter. Jehochman 19:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

That is reasonable - i've signed myself up. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:02, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I think that if the arbitration committee moves enforcement to WP:AE then some folk will be in for a very rude awakening. The history of this page is one of slow decisions resulting in insufficient and ineffectual sanctions. Moreover, the willingness of some administrators to engage in protracted debate with overtly factional editors and to indulge rather than sanction the continuation of battleground behaviour during enforcement requests is largely the cause of those administrators' current and recurring difficulties. I completely support Jehochman's recent action and the principle that he may take similar action without any requirement for debate prior to such action. CIreland (talk) 19:58, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I wish my comments above would had said it as well as you've done here, CIreland. BigK HeX (talk) 20:00, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Sign up for the CC restriction

I hereby agree not to touch any CC pages until ArbCom renders a decision (within a reasonable time: two weeks), and any uninvolved administrator may warn or block me if I fail to keep this obligation.

1. --GregJackP Boomer! 20:02, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
2. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:00, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
3. ATren (talk) 20:06, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
4. User:Sphilbrick --SPhilbrickT 20:09, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
5. Polargeo (talk) 21:19, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
6. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:24, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
7. I may work on a draft CC article in user space, but I won't touch main space. Cla68 (talk) 22:19, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Placement on the list is not an admission of fault. Voluntarily placing one's own name on the list may be viewed as a sign of good faith.

Clarifications

• Talk, template, file, and every type of pages are included. A nice peaceful break is what you are signing up for.

Discussion

• Question, is this until the case closes or until a proposed decision is posted? Cla68 (talk) 22:19, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

• It would be simplest if it was until the case closed, but I don't think that will be two weeks. I would suggest the voluntary restriction should be until a proposed decision is posted or two weeks (whichever is sooner). Once a proposed decision is posted, some people will be too busy discussing that to do much else. Some will drift off and want to get back to whatever they normally do. At the point the proposed decision is posted, I would suggest re-visiting this voluntary agreement and extending it until the case closes for those named in the proposed decision. Carcharoth (talk) 22:55, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Many of those signatures are meaningless. TGL is already banned. GJP has never shown any interest in improving any of the articles, ditto ATren William M. Connolley (talk) 23:03, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

This can make it possible to stick to a more limited restriction where you don't edit the articles on the front line of the dispute with sceptics and edit other articles instead. If e.g. you don't have to argue that the "hockey stick illusion" is a bad source (because Cla68 won't raise this), then that leaves you with more time to work on articles that are about the technical aspects of climate science. Count Iblis (talk) 23:17, 5 August 2010 (UTC)