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Revision as of 22:12, 1 February 2006

Article about Hakata in Polish. --Ttyre 17:33, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

The Jews who keep trolling this article are merely trying to cause a problem. If they weren't then why are they always together, Jewish and all on topics even just slightly related to Jews? Maybe they should learn to read Polish? God forbid that I would stick up for the little guy, whilst these jackasses won't stop their ganging up. I've already been threatened with a promise by User:Humus sapiens for my legit criticisms of their hostility. TShilo and Jayjg are trolls and they should be banned, plain and simple. TheUnforgiven 00:38, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

For the record, I found out about this article and Witkacy's pushing for the inclusion of HKT here, because of Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Anti-Polonism. Your personal attacks are a blatant violation of WP:NPA, your blind reverts are trollish, not Jay and I, your negative characterizations of your "guess" regarding my or anyone else' except Witkacy's contributions are a violation of WP:AGF, and overall, basically everything you write on Talk: pages and in your edsums are violations of WP:Civility. Misplaced Pages is a collaborative effort; one of the prerequisites for collaboration is working together, something which you have not yet demonstrated either a desire nor an interest in doing. This begs the question, "Why are you here?" Tomer 00:46, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Any time that you gang up on people you don't like, with other Jews as a "collaborative effort", you are violating NPOV and is Misplaced Pages:Gaming the system. You foment unrest and aggravation by your trolling. Your Ad hominem reverts are based on those who are not Jewish or your brand of Jewish. Don't be a hypocrite, because you're speculating on Witkacy's motives when you are suspected of harbouring ulterior motives yourself. You are hardly in a position to judge or guess. This apathetic way of dealing with everybody on Misplaced Pages is also a violation of WP:Civility and WP:POINT. Nobody cares about how tough you think you are and how much you can push people around. Everything you are doing in effect is breaking WP:NPA. The two pages on VFD are pushed because they only violate the will of certain Jews. TheUnforgiven 00:58, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

English language sources on Hakata:

• Richard Wonser Tims, Germanizing Prussian Poland; the H-K-T Society and the struggle for the Eastern marches in the German Empire, 1894-1919, New York, AMS Press, 1966 .
• Tomasz Kamusella, The Dynamics of the Policies of Ethnic Cleansing in Silesia in the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries, Open Society Institute, March, 1999. , see pp. 224, 229-230, 241, others or search for Deutscher Ostmarkenverein. --Ttyre 01:14, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Right. One reference to H-K-T society. That's the one I found. The other says "known to Poles as Hakata", not "HKT". Jayjg 01:58, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you can see that others have the right to edit according their knowledge, just as much as you? What gives you the right to doubt so much of everybody else? Here, you've barely conceded the worth of other edits from your own. Try humility some time. TheUnforgiven 02:20, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Nationalistic or not?

In my opinion, the society was indeed nationalistic, because it aimed at making the new German national state more German by oppressing the Polish minority. @Sciurinæ: Of course it was only "german nationalistic", not "polish nationalistic", since it only granted the Germans the right to have an own state, not the Poles. I think that doesn't contradict the definition of Nationalism, at least not Misplaced Pages's definition:

Nationalism is an ideology which holds that the nation, ethnicity or national identity is a "fundamental unit" of human social life, and makes certain cultural and political claims based upon that belief.

The Eastern Marches Society did make cultural and politic claims on behalf of national arguments, but only in favor of the "superior" German nation. --Langec 09:12, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

According to Oxford's Advanced Learner's dictionary, 'nationalistic' is defined as "(usually disapproving) having very strong feelings of love and pride in your country, so that you think it is better than any other." To 'disapprove' is defined as "~ (of sb/sth) to think that sb/sth is not good or suitable; to not approve of sb/sth". In other words, the word 'nationalistic' carries negative connotations in it (or else Molobo wouldn't use it) and is therefore not really congrous to the NPOV-policy. I must admit that I didn't read the Wikipedian article as I think neutrality often ends in wiki-articles where international relations or politics in general begin. Having read it now, I think that the wiki-definition is pretty vague and for consistency you would have to label the Silesian Uprisings or any resistance movement in the same way. Anyway, because Molobo could find one example with Google that describes the organisation as 'nationalistic' he would insist on the adjective until I could find "a source contradicting that Hakata was an antipolish nationalistic organisation" so I give in here. Sciurinæ 13:40, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

So maybe this discussion boils down to redefining "nationalism" in the Misplaced Pages ­-- Why not? But, to make sure I understand the definition correctly: Does the word "nationalistic" have different connotations in the English and German language? My German "Wahrig" dictionary (I'm German, as you are) defines "nationalism" as "overreaching national feeling" (German: "übersteigertes Nationalgefühl"), which is far more general than the Oxford definition, and would suit this article quite well. --Langec 22:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

When I told you about the meaning of "nationalistic", I was confused because the OUP dictionary referred to "nationalism" as "1)the desire by a group of people who share the same race, culture, language, etc. to form an independent country 2) (sometimes disapproving) a feeling of love for and pride in your country; a feeling that their country is better than any other". And it defined "nationalist" as "1) a person who wants their country to become independent 2) (sometimes disapproving) a person who has a great love for and pride in their country; a person who has a feeling that their country is better than any other". But when it comes to "nationalistic", it reads "(usually disapproving) having very strong feelings of love for and pride in your country, so that you think that it is better than any other". (no, I did not italize the letters of "disapproving", it is this way in the book) So why is "nationalistic" different? I can't answer you that (any more than I can answer you whether 'nationalistisch' and 'nationalistic' have developed different connotations) but look at the definition of the Cambridge dictionary here. I was obviously right in guessing that now that Molobo has managed to Google one page on the net that refers to it as "nationalistic", this is it, no more talking, 'nationalistic' it is. I've briefly toyed with the idea of searching for sources on the net describing Lech so-and-so (the right-wing President of Poland) as "nationalistic" but then, I won't step to the same level and having managed not have the organisation slyly indirectly accused of 'Genocide', as Molobo had tried is a success. Sciurinæ 21:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Yawn I have the book since 7 years at my home Sciurinæ. And as always you ignore any source you don't like --Molobo 22:12, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Those were the days of Hakata, the German nationalist association with the aim of ousting Polish landowners and peasents from their lands, by every cunning trick and chicanery" Myth of the Nation and Vision of Revolution: Ideological Polarization in the Twentieth Century by J L Talmo

Historia 1871-1939 Anna Radziwiłł. Wojciech Roszkowski.Polish Ministry of Education year 2000. Page 82. "...it was an lobby group, representing German nationalists from eastern territory of German Empire. which aimed to influence administration, to pursue and continue to fallow an antipolish course on territories of Prussian Partition." Now please provide a source contradicting that Hakata was an antipolish nationalistic organisation. --Molobo 17:11, 26 January 2006 (UTC)