Revision as of 18:32, 9 August 2010 editDoc James (talk | contribs)Administrators312,255 edits →Statement by TimidGuy← Previous edit | Revision as of 18:33, 9 August 2010 edit undoFuture Perfect at Sunrise (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Administrators87,181 edits →Result concerning TimidGuy, Littleolive oil, and Edith Sirius Lee: measures imposedNext edit → | ||
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] ] 08:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC) | ] ] 08:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC) | ||
: Having reviewed the situation further, I have become even more convinced that the above measures are needed. I am therefore now imposing the measures as outlined above. ] ] 18:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
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Shuki
Complainer and complainee both topic-banned for 5 weeks. | ||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Shuki
Reply to Shuki's statement: The RFC had nothing to do with the legal status of the settlements or how that should be covered. And it is not an exceptional claim that Israeli settlements are illegal, and even if it were reliable sources were provided. The text is not discussing Israeli law but international law, so Israel's High Court's rulings on the legality under Israeli law is immaterial. None of this addresses the issue though, that you have repeatedly filibustered the inclusion of reliably sourced material for pure POV reasons. nableezy - 19:54, 18 July 2010 (UTC) Re Gatoclass: How much emphasis should be put on the material is certainly something that is strictly a content dispute, but Shuki has not been simply moving this information from the lead into the body, Shuki has been filibustering the content from appearing anywhere in the article. Is edit-warring the only thing that is actionable under ARBPIA? Is a systematic campaign to violate core policies of this website not actionable? Is everything that is not edit-warring a "content dispute"? nableezy - 04:12, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
I am not going to respond to many of the comments below. It is understandable that people come to the aid of what they perceive to be an ally. I'll just note that many of these same editors also came to the defense of the sock of a banned editor at a recent SPI, claiming that I was attempting to remove an opposing editor. That may well be the end result, but my purpose here is simple. Shuki's edits have violated a number of core policies of this website in contravention of ARBPIA. If there are editors that wish to show how that is not true they should make that case. Making this about me does not help anything. nableezy - 06:48, 19 July 2010 (UTC) Stifle: I understand it is easier to say "a pox on both your houses", but if you do so you are effectively saying that it is more important that there is an appearance of an equal application of the rules than it is to actually have an equal application of the rules. I have added well-sourced material about these settlements. The material I added is not "POV", it contains both the majority POV and Israel's by saying that they are illegal under international law though Israel disputes this. The material is both notable and verifiable, in fact every BBC story about a settlement contains that very same information. Shuki has removed notable, relevant, reliably sourced material from a number of articles and has done so by twisting policy such as RS and V or by giving no policy based reason for such removals. Regardless of Shuki's and Ynhockey's absurd comments about this material being "REDFLAG", there are countless reliable sources that flat out say that all Israeli settlements are illegal under international law; to record that in supposed "encyclopedia" articles cannot be seen as disruptive unless "disruption" is defined as anything the extreme right-wing of the Israeli political spectrum does not like. I understand that you all are not supposed to adjudicate "content disputes", but that does not mean you cannot actually look at the content. The material I added is backed by literally hundreds of reliable sources. Shuki removed that material on the most specious of reasons and has done so repeatedly. If people are free to simply remove whatever information they like without regard to how well sourced it is then this place truly is a complete waste of time and fails its goal of providing an educational resource. If you or any other admin is actually serious about creating an "encyclopedia" then you should not, no cannot, tolerate such behavior as repeatedly removing well-sourced content. Our "sins" are not all equal here. You have on hand a user adding well-sourced content. You have another user twisting policy and filibustering the inclusion of that well-sourced material. Shuki has in the past removed sources that say all Israeli settlements are illegal because they dont say that specific settlement is illegal. Now, the removals are of sources that say that the specific settlement is illegal because the source does not supposedly "prove" that and does not cite a specific court case saying that the specific settlement is illegal. That is plainly an absurd reason. If you want to treat both the person adding well-sourced material and the person removing it for absurd, ideological reasons then topic-ban us both. If, however, you want to ensure that our articles follow the policies of this website then I invite you to take a closer look at the circumstances. We are not guilty of the same sins here, and treating us as though we were may be easy but is without justification. nableezy - 14:39, 20 July 2010 (UTC) Re Stifle: I would like to know what exactly you say I am at fault of. I added sources that say specific Israeli settlements are illegal under international law. Almost 5 years ago Shuki reverted the same information asking that a source be provided. I provided that source. Shuki has since shifted the goalposts writing that the source must "prove" that Ariel is illegal under international law. No sane person can read WP:V or WP:RS and come to any such conclusion. What exactly did I do wrong here? nableezy - 18:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC) Discussion concerning ShukiStatement by ShukiNableezy has never shown any attempt to collaborate and make reasonable efforts with other editors. Nableezy also forgot to mention that he is violating the closure of Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Israeli settlements. Since he 'lost' that RfC he started, he has wasted no time in opening a new front with his typical and documented battleground mentality. Nableezy is I have certainly not changed any tactics, thanks for pre-empting me here with what I had just accused Nableezy on another page, I have always demanded that sources specifically mention the locality and not just in passing. There is no such thing as 'super-majority' and the RfC Nableezy filed failed to approve that peculiar non-existent policy. --Shuki (talk) 19:51, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
2nd reply, to Stifle, to 'topic-ban us both' Nableezy, and 'take one for the team' RomaC. I certainly do not believe in WP suicide, but we know that Nableezy is ready for martyrdom with many uncivil remarks made and threatened retirement when he was blocked and then surprisingly weirdly unblocked early at the beginning of the year. Frankly, I know that most 'Israeli cities, villages, towns, and more in the West Bank / Judea and Samaria Area' articles are not on the watchlists of many, if at all, and no one has been contributing to the topic of 'Israeli settlements' articles as much as me though I wish I had more help. I admit to the kneejerk reaction to what I saw Nableezy doing (evidently and his admitted flooding of articles with tendentious boilerplate one liners, contrary to Sandstein's closing RfC recommendation to deal with each issue on a case-by-case basis) was to quickly make those reverts, and hopefully merely temporarily freeze him on his admitted conquest to add it to all 200+ articles, so that perhaps the WP community could handle this much better with, hold on, collaboration and consensus. I was not going to follow him around on each page to put it in another section, given that some editors have an issue with that too - something that calm consensus should decide. I cannot recall too many instances in which we have seen a reasonable and rational Nableezy, wanting to accomplish anything except to get is POV included and he only bothers to behave if others are watching too. To his credit, and perhaps the exception that proves the rule, he did start the RfC. Unfortunately, he did not bother to pursue further dispute resolution given his failure with the RfC. 3rd, to Stifle, I do not see how a three month topic ban is proportional to merely reverting six articles once and with my long-term record which is centred primarily around creating, improving and maintaining Israeli geography articles. Since coming out of my single 1RR 'topic ban', I have managed to keep that 1RR behaviour intact except for a repeat SPA anon who was/is repeatedly just making a mess on three articles and has been reverted by others as well. On the other hand, comparing me with Nableezy who was;
and his repeated use of AE for the hunt (of me), even though warned only a month ago from making non-actionable claims
The proper thing to do would have been for Nableezy to make another RfC, or use other dispute resolution mechanism to engage editors in this issue, or perhaps get other advice from a mentor, or like-minded but mature editor or admin. I am not interested in 'taking anyone down with me' and frankly, I don't care to see Nableezy topic banned either (and I have tried unsuccessfully in the past to suggest he make positive contributions instead of only the negative edits that he characterizes him). Peace, here on WP and in Israel, will not be made by one side attacking the other but by each side wanting to progress and improve. If I could sanction Nableezy, it would be to A) get him to join Misplaced Pages:Palestine, and B1) improve above stub status 200 Palestinian locality articles (in contrast to the 200 Israeli articles he was beginning to edit), or alternatively B2) create 100 new 'pro'-Arab/Palestinian articles starting with the requested ones on WP:Palestine (not anti-Israel ones) or alternatively B3) work on getting GA status for five Arab/Palestinian articles of his choice (preferably ones that promote Arab issues, and do not include anything about 'international law', warfare and blood). Instead, until then, I see this as another frivolous attempt ato bully me and scare others as well. Many have come to support me here (surprisingly, thank you and I have not emailed or canvassed anyone either) and few have come to back Nableezy up, and there is no shortage of editors who are on 'his side'. It is a fact that the six accused edits mentioned are definitely not 'an attempt by me at filibustering', that while my accuser prefers otherwise, even if I have shown to accept inserting material my personal POV would rather not have included and I collaborate. --Shuki (talk) 00:48, 21 July 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Shuki
Shuki, where does WP:V or WP:RS require that a source "not just in passing"? I seem to remember you made the opposite argument in the past. — Malik Shabazz /Stalk 20:22, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
The issues raised in this request are issues related to the contested content of a few articles, and should be discussed on the articles talk pages as such. IMO the request should be closed as non actionable because Shuki has never violated any policy.--Mbz1 (talk) 21:14, 18 July 2010 (UTC) On a side note I am surprised that Nableezy while filing the request about Shuki has no problems with IP, who inserts unsourced POV to the same articles with the edit summaries like this one for example: "an illegal settlement built on a stolen and occupied land is NOT a villeinage!!!! stop promoting lies violating wikipedias terms and the international law!!!!". --Mbz1 (talk) 22:00, 18 July 2010 (UTC) Response to Gatoclass question about Shuki editing against consensus. No, they did not, just the opposite. Please take a look at one of the articles in question talk page's discussion. Nableezy started it just few hours before he filed this AE, and there's no consensus there. As user:Noon put it:
To the closing administrator. I would like to stress out three important points provided by me and others as a small summary:
According to the above this AE against Shuki should be closed as non actionable. Thanks.--Mbz1 (talk) 01:04, 23 July 2010 (UTC) To the closing uninvolved admins, I am not going to jump into your space as very much involved Gatoclass did, but I do agree with him: banned editors should know what they are banned for. Shuki has done absolutely nothing wrong at all. The issue of the request is a content dispute, which could not and should not be enforced by AE. Nableezy did not make nearly enough efforts to resolve the issue at the article talk pages before bringing the matter up to AE. He demonstrated a battleground behavior, and it is not first time he files non actionable, time-wasting AE. That's why IMO Nableezy should be given 2 weeks symbolic ban on AE just to make him give it another thought before he files another AE. Thanks.--Mbz1 (talk) 13:47, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Comment by GatoclassWhile I certainly agree that the status of all such settlements in international law should be outlined somewhere in the relevant articles, it doesn't strike me as imperative that this status be noted in the intro, unless perhaps the intro is long and/or the settlement a particular source of friction. IMO, it's sufficient that the status of such settlements be referred to somewhere in the body of the article. In any case, this looks to me like a run-of-the-mill content dispute, and I don't see anything actionable under ARBPIA. Gatoclass (talk) 03:57, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Having just read Shuki's comments above, I am obliged to amend my position. I consider Shuki's statement that "I have always demanded that sources specifically mention the locality and not just in passing" to be an absurdity, as it's clear that if a reliable source states that all Israeli settlements in area x are illegal, one does not need to find a source which specifically mentions that settlement y in area x is illegal. If Shuki has been reverting based on such specious reasoning, that could certainly in my view be considered disruptive and thereby sanctionable under ARBPIA. Gatoclass (talk) 05:34, 19 July 2010 (UTC) an Israeli organization .... was forced to pay damages and issue a public apology to settlers after falsely claiming that a particular settlement was built illegally on private Palestinian land - Ynhockey. Well, fine, but that is quite irrelevant to this discussion. Sources can always be wrong, we knew that. The issue here is that Shuki is demanding a higher burden of proof for the inclusion of material than is required by WP:RS. He is demanding that sources specifically state that a given settlement is "illegal", when logically it is only necessary to demonstrate that a settlement is in the occupied territories to demonstrate its illegality. A source could of course be wrong in making either statement, so that's an entirely separate issue. Gatoclass (talk) 11:15, 20 July 2010 (UTC) People need to stop making arguments for their take on the content dispute since that it not the scope of these requests - Cptnono. Cptnono, there is a difference between a content dispute and sheer illogic. If someone holds a position that is plainly logically fallacious, and maintains that position even after having its erroneous nature pointed out to him, that has ceased to be a mere content dispute and become disruption. In this case, Shuki's position is rendered untenable by simple logical deduction:
There can therefore be no justification for Shuki's claim that Nableezy is required to produce sources that state a particular settlement is illegal. Nableezy only needs to produce a source which states that the settlement is in the occupied territories, because its illegality is a function of its location. If Shuki is prepared to acknowledge his error and agree to stop reverting on those grounds, perhaps there is no need for further action here. If however he is going to insist on maintaining his current view, I think that would be grounds for imposing further sanctions. Gatoclass (talk) 10:29, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
While it pains me to say so, I have to agree with Shuki's assessment of Nableezy's general editing practices (although I disapprove of the specific terms used). It is unfortunate that Nableezy has chosen not to make constructive contributions to articles about settlements, but rather to go out of his way to "prove" that they are illegal. Even if, theoretically, ample sources could be provided and the significance of this statement could be proven, it still seems like a WP:BATTLE action to just go around articles about settlements saying they're illegal and adding no other content. This WP:AE request seems like yet another piece of WikiDrama to get an editor from "the other side" banned and thus have a certain version of the article say. If Nableezy continues to edit settlement-related articles, I sincerely hope that he invests more resources into improving sections about the history, geography and culture of settlements. —Ynhockey 04:40, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Note to Stifle: I will respect any decision you make, but ask you to look at what each editor has done for the articles in question. In fact, as far as I can tell, Shuki has singlehandedly written most of the content in settlement-related articles. As I noted above, Nableezy has unfortunately failed to make any contributions to these articles. I ask that this is taken into account in any decision you make. —Ynhockey 18:38, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
I hope that any request for enforcement against Nableezy will not look like reprisal since it has been coming for some time now. The RfC closure set a very good chance to do some case by case basis with a firm reminder not to start any shenanigans. This should have been handled better and Shuki should not be shouldering the brunt of the blame.Cptnono (talk) 06:04, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Reply to Cptnonos "Diffs and thoughts and stuff" I have edited 1080 articles. I am interested in the Arab-Israeli conflict and so are many others, so those who are interested in the same topic will of course run into me on several articles. Now to Cptnonos accusations where he mentions my name:
Also, these sources are all from Guardian and BBC. While they are usually RS, they are not considered impartial in their attitude through Israel. Infact, once Israel submitted official complaint against the BBC for being biased against it. The BBC then was forced to establish a committee that scrutinized these complaints. They never published the committee's conclusions. If you search the web for it, you will find many reliable sources heavily doubt the neutrality of British media sources like the BBC and the Guardian about the I-P conflict. When it comes to settlements thing then no one is argue that the BBC came up with MA being considered as a settlement by the UN. But it does not represent the entire issue and the wording by itself is harsh and not neutral still.--Gilisa (talk) 06:24, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
This is about policy compliance. We can't have people removing sourced information because the information isn't wearing a hijab or whatever the nothing-to-do-with-policy reason was here. Editors are obliged to edit according to policy. If they are upset by reliable sources saying that Israeli settlements are illegal and editors adding that information to articles there are plenty of other subjects for them to work on. What would happen I wonder if, rather than topic bans and such like, editors who find it difficult to comply with the discretionary sanctions were simply restricted from removing sourced material from articles ? They could add sourced material, reword existing material but not remove it altogether without calmly proceeding to the talk page and making their case. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC) Another alternative to the standard and clearly ineffective methods currently employed to deal with neutrality-challenged editors might be to require them to swop to 'the other side' of the conflict for a period. This is something I would really like to see happen personally. If an editor wants to blatantly ignore WP:COI, blatantly ignore the 'Editors counseled' section of the sanctions and consistently advocate for a side in a conflict as so many do then maybe there should be a cost to the editor. Perhaps they should have to advocate for 'the other side' too and the benefit should accrue to Misplaced Pages in the form of improved content and a general reduction in silliness. If an editor is genuinely here to build a better encyclopedia they shouldn't mind adding policy compliant material for a period even if it comes from sources they don't like such as..um..the BBC and even if it makes 'their side' look bad in their eyes. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
When we have highly disruptive editors (as in, those who have been blocked three times already this year) elevating their content disputes to non-actionable complaints, in apparent efforts to further their own POV, we have a wasteful time-suck. Perhaps it's time to consider ways to slow down our most disruptive editors; especially those who gravitate towards controversial areas such as the I-P area. Something that slows down those editors who have already been blocked 3 times in 2010, say, from taking any of various steps that lead to wastes of time for the community at large (ARE, AfD, etc., in the I-P area). In the U.S., felons are prohibited from voting in many elections. And at wikipedia, when articles are controversial, we limit editing to certain editors who we view as more trustworthy -- such as non-IPs. Extending those concepts here might prove beneficial.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:54, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Just over a week ago Shuki came of a 3 month 1r restriction (AE result) this doesn't appear to have sunk in as since then:
He just doesn't seem to be here to edit collaboratively and probably requires a topic ban rather than another revert restriction. Misarxist (talk) 12:35, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Re the admin comments about 'content dispute', obviously there is disagreement about the content, but the complaint is about straight-foward multiple reverts of sourced content without discussion. As I noted above (even with Mbz1's note, yes that's not as simple as I claimed, but the 3r example is undeniable) we are talking about an a know tendentious edit-warrior. There doesn't seem to be any real argument about Shuki being sanctioned again. But the complaints about Nableezey's record (the bulk of the responses here) are not relevant to that. And if Nableezey's conduct is at fault there's going to to need to be evidence cited, the fact that he's in a dispute with a tendentious nationalist editor isn't good enough in itself. Also while the underlying and widespread dispute does need to be dealt with, this simply isn't the right venue. Misarxist (talk) 12:44, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Since the status of all land that has been conquered in a defensive war is a complex matter and the status of the West Bank finds no consensus among international legal experts, it is POV pushing to write the kind of statement that User:Nableezy is defending. I do not see nableezy questioning the status of the Western Sahara, or of Tibet, or criticizing the recent genocidal attack on the Tamil. He writes on behalf of a political cause dear to his heart. This does not make him a useful colleague. You can, after all, always find newspaper articles making flat assertions about just about anything. this is not scholarship. A simple statement that there is no consensus regarding the legal status of the West Bank would be better and could be well-supported. But I do not expect scholarship or balance from Nableezy. He is a highly contentions editor, the kind that drives moderate, informed editors from Misplaced Pages. Actually, I have come to believe that it is his goal to make editing so unpleasant that moderate people will go away, leaving the field open to him to use Misplaced Pages as a battleground to wage a Palestinian proxy war.AMuseo (talk) 20:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Although I wasn't involved in the articles mentioned above, I do feel it necessary to decry Nableezy's disruptive edit habits and intimidation of editors. On the Helen Thomas article while I explained every move I made, he vandalized my edits without any explanation, or with meaningless ones which is even worse. Once, it could have been explained away, but not a pattern of them. Then he had the gall to try to intimidate me by pretending that he is an administrator and admonishing me (for doing what is right) when he should have admonished himself for editing in bad faith. On one edit on July 13 (not pertaining to me) seeing that he can’t have it his way, he then made another controversial edit slanting the lead and explaining it with "all right, you want specifics add specifics, not just one part of the story." He seems to be using Misplaced Pages to tell the story the way he wants it to be told, as he actually admitted in a moment of truth and exasperation, of if you're getting it your way then I'll get it also my way. He sees everything as "your way" or "my way". I think he is unhelpful and a drain on controversial articles. Fandriampahalamana (talk) 21:22, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
It's unfortunate that this request is following the usual pattern of people's views on Shuki's conduct being 100% corfrelated with their views on the IP dispute. I regret that I'm conforming to that pattern. Looking at the last edits listed by Nableezy, I see that theis effect is to remove any mention of the status of these settlements under international law. It has to be a notable effect about these places that they are considered illegal by major international institutions that pronounce on and enforce international law. The major institutions I have in mind are such organs ases of the UNSC, the high-contracting parties to the Geneva Conventions, the ICC, ICJ etc. When all those that pronounce on the matter say the settlements are illegal and none dissents, then the fact has to be mentioned in the articles. To remove any such mention is a clear violation of WP:NPOV.--Peter cohen (talk) 11:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Comment by BrewcrewerAs this is apparently the place to hang out these days, I feel obliged to chime in lest people forget my existence. Unlike some other editors here who feel this is an content related dispute and should be closed as unactionable, I'm of the position that some action should take place as a result of this report. The editor who filed the report insists that the first three words of any article on an Israeli entity beyond the '48 border should be "illegal settlement". This position has resulted in lots of edit warring. Numerous editors and a RFC later (linked above) have revealed a consensus that although the argument for illegality should clearly be included in an article, it should not be the first three words, per WP:NPOV. Nevertheless, Nableezy still insists that "illegal" be in the opening sentence and any position taken to the contrary is "stupid". Not only is it "stupid", arguing that it does not belong in the first sentence is an ARBCOM violation. Nableezy claims that Shuki wants to remove any mention of illegality of article, but that's blatantly false. Each article linked by Nableezy mentions the illegality issue, some even have an entire section discussing the illegality argument. Thus, what we have here is a blatantly frivolous AE report filed by one of the most prolific AE filers, who should know better. Some sort of action should be taken so that this huge waste of time does not reoccur. Perhaps an AE ban? --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 14:36, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Concur with Peter Cohen above on all points. See many examples of Israel saying A and the rest of the world saying B, and some editors pushing A first, then a mention of B, then a rebuttal per A as "neutral." As for the admin suggestion below re: possible concurrent 3-month blocks, excuse my cynicism but I imagine Shuki might agree to "take one for the team" and be blocked if Nableezy were also taken out. There are few topic areas with nearly as much concerted partisan activity as Israel-Palestine. Yes, Nableezy may be biased, but he's also badly outnumbered which makes him sort of stick out in these content disputes. Respectfully, RomaC 14:47, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
As I understand the AE regarding the I-P articles, one of its purposes was to facilitate a reasonable editing atmosphere in this contentious area. Contributors who exhibited "battleground" mentality and aggressive behaviour were banned or were blocked for a long period of time. In contrast to this purpose, the filing party of this request is engaged for a long time in trying to get the upper hand in content disputes by making considarable efforts to ban his opponents or block them indefinitely. Just one sample illustration of his "battleground mentality" may be found here, where he says: "There were three people who had pushed for my first topic ban. One of those was later blocked as a sock of NoCal100, the one who filed the complaint has now been blocked as a sock of Dajudem/Tundrabuggy, and the last is still taking aim at me." WP is not a battleground nor a venue for shooting ducks as done in Luna Parks. It looks as if the filing party spends most of his energy either to make small controversial edits to push his political views, while violating the fundamental WP:NPOV policy, or in targetting disruptively his opponents, espacially those who dare criticizing or reporting him, until they get out of his way. Content should adhere WP:NPOV not only in the facts and refs, but also in the tone of what is written, and how and where the facts are presented (ie. either in the lead, or as a link to the relevant article where all POVs are presented, or in a separate section in the same article where more views can be presented). accordingly, and for the huge waste of time dealing with this unwarranted request, it seems that the filing party fails to adhere to the purpose of building an encyclopedia, and the I-P AE penalty guidelines may apply to him. Noon (talk) 16:03, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Stifle, Nableezy has not done anything wrong here, while Shuki has been removing sourced information. Please look at the real issue instead of what other people say here at this enforcement. Every time there is a pro-Israeli editor up for enforcement, the same group of people show up in defense of that editor. Please look at the real issue here instead. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
When evaluating sanctions, prior disciplinary history should be factored in. A look at Shuki’s record reveals two relatively short blocks, the last of which occurred more than a year ago This is an indication that Shuki is adhering to wiki policy and guidelines. By contrast, Nableezy’s block history is a mess, full of lengthy blocks and topic bans In fact, Nableezy has just come off a topic ban. In addition, Nableezy has previously been indefinitely blocked for threatening legal action against Misplaced Pages. It was lifted when he withdrew his threat but it shows that he has lost sight of reality and can not distinguish between the real and virtual worlds. It is clear from his prior sanction history that this is an editor who takes a WP:BATTLEGROUND approach to editing with a “take no prisoners” mentality. Clearly, under the totality of circumstances, the person who deserves to be permanently banned from the topic area is Nableezy.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 17:24, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
When you are a recidivist, like Nableezy, when your block log history reads like a lengthy rap sheet, like Nableezy’s when you find yourself on these boards on a daily basis, either as a respondent or complainant, like Nableezy, When you come into every I-A article with a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, like Nableezy, when an editor loses his grip on reality and threatens to sue Misplaced Pages, as Nableezy has, it’s time to ask; Is this a productive editor or a disruptive one? I leave it to the admins to decide.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:34, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
I have not encountered Shuki in the past, although it is clear from the diffs provided that he has a strong POV which is reflected in his edits. On the other side, he is prolific content contributor in the Israel content area, and most of his edits clearly improve the enyclopedia. Regarding Nableezy I have encountered him and again it is clear that his edits reflect his strong POV. That in itself is not necessarily a problem (although usually it is), but when coupled with incivility and combative language (, - some recent example, but from cases clearly a pattern), speculations and accusations about the ulterior motives of other editors (, ) it becomes a problem as it makes collaborative editing difficult to impossible. I am ignoring here the partisan editing of Nableezy and presumably Shuki - it would probably be beyond the scope and my take on it is that we probably need a fully fledged arbcom case to deal with the current detoriation in the Israel-Palestine topic area.
This isn't about Shuki specifically, but the prevalence of arbitration enforcement requests and posts on AN3, ANI, and RFPP, especially as of late, regarding Israel-Palestine articles and articles that only mention something Israel-Palestine-related suggests that it's high time for another ARBCOM case. Either that, or admins need to be more willing to exact serious sanctions against editors that have been shown to be disruptive on these articles. We see the same editors being reported again and again (and the same editors doing the reporting again and again). This is one of today's most persistent and divisive conflicts, and while I appreciate people's willingness to give editors second, third, and fourth chances, the fact of the matter is, those people who edit disruptively in this arena will almost certainly always edit disruptively in this arena. This method of moderate sanctions and warnings that never get followed up on is not working. It's clear that a certain set of editors are testing the community's patience, and if they can't voluntarily move to an area in which they can more constructively edit, they should be forced to do so post-haste. -- tariqabjotu 12:28, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Unlike the Israeli legal position, which is irrelevant to it, the overwhelming international viewpoint, as embodied in such organisations as the UN, is very staightforward: the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories (including East Jerusalem) have been established in breach of international law (see the article on Israeli settlements, such documents as the text of UN Human Rights Council Resolution 7/18 and newspaper articles such as this one from Le Monde Diplomatique). The Misplaced Pages rules require, as stated by Nableezy, that articles should present the all significant viewpoints and in a proportionate manner. Those on Israeli settlements and outposts, particularly major ones such as Ma'ale_Adumim and Ariel, should reflect the main global point of interest in them (as shown by the context in which they normally appear in sources), their status as illegal settlements in occupied territory and their role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Trying to minimise or suppress the proportionate representation of that viewpoint amounts to point-of-view pushing. That is particularly true when reasons given for reverting edits, rather than being based on the Misplaced Pages rules, are, as they have been here, where a reason given for reverting was that the status of the settlements is uncertain because it has never been examined in a law court, is based in a particular viewpoint (from the international point of view, the settlements are illegal because that is the ruling of the bodies responsible for making those judgements). The reliablitly of the BBC as a source has been mentioned above. The BBC is far from infallible, but its duty as a public service broadcaster to report neutrally means that its reports are subject to more than normal editorial oversight, which, in Misplaced Pages terms, is an indication of greater reliability. In 2006, the report produced at the end of an independent review commissioned by the corporation's board of governors was, unlike the internally-produced Balen report, published. The review suggested that the BBC's reporting, if anything, favoured the Israeli side. The review panel recommended that the BBC should make public an abbreviated version of the Israel and Palestine part of its journalists' guide to facts and terminology. In light of the conversation going on here, perhaps the guideline which says, "when writing a story about settlements we can aim, where relevant, to include context to the effect that 'all settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this," which is very similar to the text that Nableezy was trying to introduce, might be seen as of interest. ← ZScarpia 21:28, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
{Reply to the comment addressed to me by Shuki at 22:29 (UTC) on 21 July 2010} Ideally every involved editor should be co-operating to produce a less single-perspective article. If the lead section were to be written by me, it would start something like:
← ZScarpia 20:55, 22 July 2010 (UTC) In regard to court judgements on the legality of the settlements, in its role as the principal judicial organ of the UN, the International Court of Justice stated the following in an advisory opinion given to the UN General Assembly on the 9 July 2004:
← ZScarpia 02:52, 23 July 2010 (UTC) The addition of statements noting the international view that particular settlements are illegal has a long history and is not, as far as I can see, a breach of established consensus. For example, in the article on Ariel, the first time such a statement was added in April 2005, a year after the article was created, by Doron. ← ZScarpia 15:20, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
it is the first time that I express my views in such a setting and being inexperienced I will probably be clumsy, please be indulgent. Some have already said things I agree with, no need to repeat them
One of the most destructive tactics to use on Misplaced Pages is the introduction of hoaxes into articles, and the use of made-up sources. At the Syria article both Nableezy and Supreme Deliciousness wanted to include the sentence "...to defend itself against Israeli shellings into Syria. According to the UN office in Jerusalem from 1955 until 1967 65 of the 69 border flare-ups between Syria and Israel were initiated by Israelis." in the article, cited to "Kamrava, Mehran, The Modern Middle East: A Political History since the First World War, University of California Press; 1 edition, p. 48". I checked the source in the library, neither on this page nor anywhere else in the book is there anything even remotely. You can even check it on Google Books, For me page 48 does not show, but it is clear that this chapters is about the pre-World War I era. You can also search for the numbers 67 and 69, the numbers 67 or 69 are not mentioned anywhere in the book. In short, these editors used a made-up source to bolster their claims and only after being caught red-handed did Supreme Deliciousness remove the fake source (see and ). I do not know how one can work collaboratively on this projekt or have trust in Misplaced Pages articles if we cannot trust our editors to be honest about their sources. This is even more important than civility and conforming to NPOV.
The comments here above from Pantherskin is clearly Assumption of Bad faith. That text was in the article and looked to me as well sourced, Panterskin removed it together with a well sourced Dayan quote and did not say anything about that the Jerusalem office text had a false source. As soon as it was pointed out to me that that specific part about the Jerusalem office had a false source, I removed it myself. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:46, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
To me it seems clear that what we have before us is not a content dispute. The dispute may be grounded in the content, but the enforcement request is solidly regarding policy violations. We have had a number of public discussions regarding how sources deal with the illegal settlements; at IPCOLL wikiproject, and across a multitude of talkpages. While there are sources which dispute the 'illegal settlement' moniker, the majority of quality sources support it. For a light primer see fx Daniel C. Kurtzer's article in Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs reprinted here:
I think it is fair to say that these are not fringe views, and they are supported by ECJ and ICJ publications. In light of the supermajority of sources which support the wording that Shuki tendentiously edited to remove I find Nableezys enforcement request entirely reasonable. Unomi (talk) 22:33, 22 July 2010 (UTC) Clarify the limitsCan you please clarify the limits of this action? Does it basically include; 1) all locality articles in the region, 2) all geography articles (including parks or attractions), 3) talk pages as well?. I made a couple of comments at Talk:List of national parks and nature reserves of Israel today. If they are included in the ban, I will refrain from continuing. --Shuki (talk) 22:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Shuki
I invite Shuki and Nableezy to show cause why they should not both be topic-banned for 3 months from articles about towns, cities, settlements, and other places or locations in Israel and neighbouring countries. And I request in advance that all comments relating to this request are added here, not at my talk page. Stifle (talk) 14:13, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
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Chumchum7
No violation of the 1RR/week restriction at London Victory Parade of 1946. EdJohnston (talk) 17:00, 8 August 2010 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Chumchum7
All editors are under the following restriction with regard to this article: “You may not make more than one revert of this article within one week (i.e., any period of 168 hours). A revert is any action that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part.” As shown about, Chumchum7 made two reverts in the space of 30 minutes.
Discussion concerning Chumchum7Statement by Chumchum7I wasn't going to post here as per relevant guideline WP:DENY, but now see Varsovian has just been blocked by SarekOfVulcan for 55 hours so this AE should be put the wider context of our community. This AE filing is, as the administrator FPAS indicates, pretty bogus; my first response is to refer to WP:KETTLE as well as the never ending WP:GAME, WP:TE and WP:DE issues with the filing user. If I am not mistaken, there can be penalties for inappropriate AE filings, especially by editors subject to DIGWUREN deterrent such as this one This AE on me was filed after WP:1RR was applied to WP:London Victory Parade of 1946 "because of long-term multiparty edit warring". Looking at the diffs on that article prior to the imposition of the 1RR, I can see that one editor does add or revert the same block of text 4 times in a relatively short period of time. That behaviour remains actionable by any party at any time. Any interested party can see the diffs with their own eyes. This combative situation has now spilled over onto AE, with this AE on me. It was filed after discussion of the WP:1RR (that has been applied to WP:London Victory Parade of 1946 ) on Sandstein's talk page. EdJohnston contributed to that discussion. When making my edit at WP:London Victory Parade of 1946, I linked to that Sanstein/EdJohnston discussion here to indicate that my edits were specifically based on administrator guidance. Varsovian knew that perfectly well before making this filing. Prior to that, I had self-reverted an edit as a precaution, while the technicalities of the WP:1RR were being clarified. Varsovian also knew that perfectly well before making this filing. FPAS has made a neutral and diplomatic request for Varsovian to withdraw this AE, to which Varsovian responds by saying he wants clarity on the 1RR: "This request is basically a request for the restrictions to be clarified", he writes below. AE is not the appropriate forum to learn about WP policy, especially not at the expense of other editors' reputation. Instead, questions about policy can be raised with editors and admins. For what's it's worth, my feeling about this AE is that it is an attempt to damage my reputation rather than to make a constructive and collegial contribution to our project. This kind of thing will continue to rob us of our time, until admins take stronger preventative action. Thanks, -Chumchum7 (talk) 09:07, 4 August 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Chumchum7Cannot see how either of these edits is a revert. Number one is a rewording (keeping one crucial element of V's previous edit, namely the grammatical information that the "not invited" didn't apply to all), and number two seems entirely unrelated to the previous edit that V claims was reverted. It also appears to be merely a re-ordering of text without adding or subtracting any, whereas V's edit was an addition, and I can't see any of his text affected by edit number two at all. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:11, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
I agree with EdJohnston: this case should now be closed with no admin action. I brought this here because I have no doubt at all that if I had made two reverts inside seven days, I would have been brought here. Despite Chumchum7's accusations and insinuations, it was he who first spilled over things to here with a 2,000 word report described by an admin as "too long and argumentative and contains too few relevant diffs". Despite being told "We are not interested in opinions, we are interested in evidence." he then posted the whole text again here. But nevermind, let's all move on. Varsovian (talk) 15:26, 6 August 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Chumchum7
The question here is a simple one, for any editors who frequent the 3RR noticeboard. The two edits that Varsovian suggests break the 1RR/week rule are two consecutive edits made by Chumchum7, which are 30 minutes apart. There was no intervening edit by anyone else. The rules that apply here are:
The two reverts by Chumchum7, listed by Varsovian as possibly breaking the 1RR/week rule, are consecutive. Hence those edits add up to at most one 'revert' for purposes of the 1RR. They do not break the rule. This case should be closed with no admin action. I'll wait a bit to see if there are any other comments. In general, it is quicker to present any violations of a 1RR rule at the 3RR noticeboard for action, since admins there are familiar with how this works. EdJohnston (talk) 03:41, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Brews ohare
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Brews ohare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Brews ohare (talk) 14:36, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- <This action by Sandstein is appealed. Following upon a request by Blackburne, Sandstein concluded that I was in violation of “normal editorial process or any expected standards of behavior and decorum”. I have three objections: first, the duration of Sandstein's penalty extends beyond the expiration date of the restriction used to authorize that action; second, the violations of decorum etc. authorizing action did not occur; and third, the warning required by the authorizing restriction was not provided.>
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- Sandstein notified with this diff; Blackburne (instigator of original request for action) notified with this diff.
Statement by Brews ohare
<The motion was this. It refers to expiration of topic ban and restrictions upon posting on physics pages and talk namepages. However, it remains that any uninvolved editor on their own discretion can decide that I have “repeatedly or seriously failed to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any normal editorial process or any expected standards of behavior and decorum”, and following a warning can “impose sanctions”. This situation prevails until 20 October, 2010.
This statement suggests conditions for reinstatement of the remainder of the initial ban, but does not authorize an individual editor to take action without a proper hearing.
This suggest that an individual uninvolved editor may impose sanctions “if, despite being warned, Brews ohare repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any normal editorial process or any expected standards of behavior and decorum.” Apparently it is this restriction that Sandstein has invoked.
I would raise the following points:
- Although the restriction does not contain wording limiting the nature of sanctions to be imposed, I would take it as implied that any such sanctions are to run co-extensively with the authorizing motion; that is, until October 20, not indefinitely. Sandstein has exceeded the authority granted by this remedy. To extend a sanction beyond the time of the authorizing restriction itself requires a full arbcom hearing.
- I was not, IMO, properly advised that such action was going to be taken. I believe that claims by Blackburne that I was warned that arbcom action would be taken are erroneous.
- I immediately desisted when advised that arbcom was to become involved.
- There was no warning of impending arbcom action; Blackburne's diffs that he interprets as warnings do not specifically indicate that unless I desist in talking about things on the Talk page, action would be initiated. In some cases, these remarks are simply bad tempered expressions of old wounds.
- There was no violation of Talk page decorum or standards of behavior. What did happen is that extended discussion of a number of points took place, in an entirely civil manner. As a result some improvements of some topics on the article page were made by a variety of editors. Some issues remained open on the Talk page at the time of Sandstein's action. They did not involve Blackburne, who brought the request. It is probable that these matters would have been abandoned in due course due to lack of agreement, and there was no need to intervene with sanctions.
- In view of the bad tempers and impatience exhibited by many on the Talk:Speed of light page, I volunteer that any future contributions to a thread that I might offer upon this Talk page will be limited upon request of any editor actively involved in that thread.
Brews ohare (talk) 17:01, 4 August 2010 (UTC) >
- Response to Blackburne on civility: As pointed out, these remarks were commentary upon actions participated in by many, and were not personal comments directed at yourself or any other edtior. Brews ohare (talk) 17:34, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Statement by Sandstein
I'll not comment on the merits of this appeal at this time for two reasons:
- I doubt that the appeal is admissible. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light does not provide for appeals to the community against administrative actions taken according to that case's provisions. The only venue of appeal available, therefore, is to the Arbitration Committee.
- The appeal raises some of the same issues as the outstanding request for clarification in this matter. To avoid parallel discussion, I recommend that the processing of this appeal is suspended until the request for clarification is resolved. Sandstein 17:19, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Statement by Headbomb
And the wikilawyering begins; procedures, formal warnings, etc... Brews the truth is admins have the authority and mandate to stabilize Misplaced Pages and fix problems. Full ARBCOM hearings aren't required everytime someone farts, and warnings don't need to come form the top before you need to heed them.
Also, I want to echo's Elen of the Roads statement "hy does he have to be warned formally EVERY TIME he starts this up. Why can't he remember from one time to the next not to do this shizz, like most of us do with things we're not supposed to do." I and other editors told him several times (see the diffs provided above) to drop the stick in the last weeks (and this behaviour started more or less on the day of topic ban expiry, give or take a week).
I'll doubt, I'll involve myself in yet another ARBCOM nightmare more than this statement (and now that the advocacy ban has been repealed, you can bet your ass that this will be long). I don't feel like debating the obvious with someone who can't grasp it.Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 15:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Statement by JohnBlackburne
The diffs were provided to show that a number of editors - most of the participants of the talk page - had objected to Brews' editing over the space of a only a few days. That some reference the previous arbitration case is unsurprising as it concerned the same page and is hardly "old wounds" as it is still in force. I'm not sure why you expect them to show a "warning of impending ArbCom action".
On civility I again point to and , your characterising other editors' contributions as "stupid" and "lazy" respectively. Or only yesterday, perhaps more typically, three good faith attempts by different editors to address your concerns were dismissed like so: . Whether any of this is bad tempered or impatient I'm sure editors can judge for themselves.--JohnBlackburnedeeds 17:22, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by <Brews_ohare>-Arbitration_enforcement_action_appeal_by_Brews_ohare-2010-08-06T20:58:00.000Z">
Just wanted to note, from reading Talk:Speed of light. Brews, you were repeatedly advised to take the extra content to the article on the Metre, which all agreed could do with the expansion. You are still able to do that - Speed of Light is the only article you are barred from. Why don't you do that, make it work, and you'll be in a much better position to convince people that sanctions are no longer required. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:58, 6 August 2010 (UTC)"> ">
Result of the appeal by Brews ohare
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I am of the opinion that this appeal is out of order as the decision does not provide for an appeal here. The appeal would need to go to ArbCom. Stifle (talk) 15:28, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps the clerks can move this appeal section to the appropriate venue?? Brews ohare (talk) 17:05, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Clerk comment: This thread is not actionable as an appeal and so it would form no part of any complaint you submitted to the Arbitration Committee. You should simply file a new request, using the old statements and such if you like. AGK 22:50, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- I need advice on how and where to file the new request, as I cannot understand the procedure. Brews ohare (talk) 03:29, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- Clerk comment: This thread is not actionable as an appeal and so it would form no part of any complaint you submitted to the Arbitration Committee. You should simply file a new request, using the old statements and such if you like. AGK 22:50, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
David Spector
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning David Spector
- User requesting enforcement
- Fladrif (talk) 15:22, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- David spector (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Transcendental_Meditation_movement#All_parties_instructed
Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Transcendental_Meditation_movement#Editors_reminded
Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Transcendental_Meditation_movement#Discretionary_sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Before the (virtual) ink is dry on the ArbCom decision, accusing other editors and administrators of bad faith, and other misconduct. Violates ArbCom Remedy #2 that all editors must assume good faith, remain civil, and avoid personal attacks, and ArbCom Remedy #1, with reference to Principle #9, Principle #11 , Principle #12 and Principle #14 .
- Personal attack on another editor, insisting that he leave Misplaced Pages, faulting other editors for tolerating his participation in Misplaced Pages, expressing annoyance and anger that reliable, scholarly sources must be the basis for articles, instead of the "truth" a he knows it. Violates ArbCom Remedy #2 that all editors must assume good faith, remain civil, and avoid personal attacks, and ArbCom Remedy #1, with reference to Principle #1 , Principle #2 , Principle #4 , Principle #5 , Principle #9, Principle #11 , Principle #12 and Principle #14 .
- Accuses other editors and administrators of bad faith, of having an agenda to push a POV, of being uninformed and ignorant of the facts/truth , and faults them for relying on published, reliable secondary sources which he finds irritating because the sources are allegedly not informed. Violates ArbCom Remedy #2 that all editors must assume good faith, remain civil, and avoid personal attacks, and ArbCom Remedy #1, with reference to Principle #1 , Principle #2 , Principle #4 , Principle #5 , Principle #9, Principle #11 , Principle #12 and Principle #14 .
- Accusing other editors he categorizes as "anti TM" of bias, lack of good faith, bullying and wikilawyering. Accusing editors he identifies as "pro-TM' of misconduct, making unsupported assertions of off-wiki intimidation by associates of editors. Violates ArbCom Remedy #2 that all editors must assume good faith, remain civil, and avoid personal attacks, and ArbCom Remedy #1, with reference to Principle #1 , Principle #2 , Principle #4 , Principle #5 , Principle #9, Principle #11 , Principle #12 and Principle #14 .
- Personal attack on an editor for citing policy regarding no personal attacks on article talk pages. Violates ArbCom Remedy #2 that all editors must assume good faith, remain civil, and avoid personal attacks, and ArbCom Remedy #1, with reference to Principle #9, Principle #11 , Principle #12 and Principle #14 .
- Essentially admits that he assumes bad faith on the part of an Administrator with respect to the positions taken in discussions on sources, complaining that Misplaced Pages should not rely on reliable published sources, but on editors like himself who know the "truth". Violates ArbCom Remedy #2 that all editors must assume good faith, remain civil, and avoid personal attacks, and ArbCom Remedy #1, with reference to Principle #1 , Principle #2 , Principle #4 , Principle #5 , Principle #9, Principle #11 , Principle #12 and Principle #14 .
- Accuses other editors of cowardice for not disclosing their real life identities and thus not "standing behind" their edits. Violates ArbCom Remedy #2 that all editors must assume good faith, remain civil, and avoid personal attacks, and ArbCom Remedy #1, with reference to Principle #9, Principle #11 ,
- Accuses an editor of being a bully and asserts that he has psychological problems. Violates ArbCom Remedy #2 that all editors must assume good faith, remain civil, and avoid personal attacks, and ArbCom Remedy #1, with reference to Principle #9, Principle #11 , Principle #12 and Principle #14
- More of the same, utterly unapologetic, in the face of administrator warning. Violates ArbCom Remedy #2 that all editors must assume good faith, remain civil, and avoid personal attacks, and ArbCom Remedy #1, with reference to Principle #9, Principle #11 , Principle #12 and Principle #14
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Warning by Fladrif (talk · contribs)
- Warning by Fladrif (talk · contribs)
- Warning by Woonpton (talk · contribs)
- Warning by Will Beback (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Warning by Will Beback (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- A formal warning per the Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Transcendental_Meditation_movement#Discretionary_sanctions
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Shouldn't this statement by AGK be in the "results" heading as a proposed remedy from an uninvolved administrator? I don't know the protocols here. Do uninvolved adminstrators commonly post proposed remedies in the "comments by others" section, or should AGK or a clerk move it to the results section? Fladrif (talk) 13:03, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning David Spector
Statement by David Spector
I am very impressed by the obvious time and energy Fladrif has put into his list of complaints against me. As usual with his lists, his summaries are actually interpretations, designed to make his citations appear more favorable to whatever complaint he is making.
I cannot equal his detailed citations or show the flaws in each of his summaries to defend myself as meticulously, since I have other projects in real life that demand my attention and little time to get to them. That's why I edit WP in spurts, when I have time.
I avoid any substantive editing in the family of Transcendental Meditation movement (TMM) articles almost entirely, knowing that my edits will only raise barely rational complaints from Fladrif and WillBeBack. The remaining (pro-TM) editors can work in such an hostile environment; I cannot. Note, if relevant: I am partially pro-TM and partially anti-TM in my POV, but I can easily put both aside and edit neutrally.
Unfortunately, the TMM articles are dominated by pro-TM editors who, although very polite, are currently only kept in check from transferring their POV to the articles by Fladrif and WillBeBack, other anti-TM editors having left of their own choosing. Thus, I wouldn't feel justified working to get either one of these editors banned, even though it would certainly create a beautiful atmosphere in which to do some excellent editing (the articles are simply terrible as a result of their long history of edit warring and wikilawyering to PUSH pro and con POVs). So, that's why I mostly stay away from those articles, as one can see in my contributions history.
Fladrif has been a thorn in my side ever since I started telling the truth and complaining about him (which, I admit, does not conform to WP policy). He almost single-handedly got an informative article on Natural Stress Relief, written by one of its clients, deleted. Natural Stress Relief is my nonprofit, all-volunteer organization dedicated to providing an inexpensive alternative to Transcendental Meditation (I currently have over 900 clients). The only thing wrong with that article was that it had few /significant references, since the organization is only four years old and has not yet been discovered by reliable sources.
While I agree that my best policy would have been to ignore him (AGF) because attacking an unreasonable person only makes the situation worse, I resent bullies like him, with his constant wikilawyering against me and other editors, getting away with their clever but antisocial behavior. I don't know why the other editors put up with it. I can't.
I am very glad he has brought this formal complaint, because hopefully one or both of us will be banned from the TMM articles, which in my view will cure a big headache for the TMM articles, their editors, and for me personally.
Note, in case it is relevant: although WillBeBack, whom I mentioned above, constantly objects to any proposed edit by the pro-TM editors and always sides with Fladrif, I have absolutely no other complaint about him. He is always polite; his suggestions are reasonable. His remarks are genuinely polite and respectful. He clearly wants the articles to be good. He and I have maintained a private correspondence which I have found helpful for the articles and which have helped me understand some of what goes on there. David Spector (talk) 18:12, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning David Spector
- The issue here is a chronic failure to assume good faith. It's hardly even necessary to look at the links since David's statement here shows again his inability to avoid making negative personal assertions and assumptions about other editors. Will Beback talk 18:29, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- My perception is that David's presence (and even indirect influence, as much of his comments are in relation to TMM but made in threads on user talk and other areas outside of mainspace) is an unhelpful one. He professes to have withdrawn from the TMM topic area altogether, but the influence of the negative comments about those still active there that he continues to make elsewhere cannot be underestimated. It may be necessary at this point to prohibit him from participation in discussions relating to Transcendental Meditation movement articles or the activities of any users who frequent them. (A three month topic ban would not be unreasonable.) I was at first minded to show leniency in light of the reduced incidence of unhelpful TMM-related comments by David in the fortnight gone by, but it remains the case that he was still sniping about Fladrif and others well into July; considering the case ended early in June, I suspect this is one soapbox that David will not step down from without a push. AGK 22:47, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Reply to Fladrif: My comment was a preliminary one and I'll be awaiting comment from other uninvolved administrators before proposing any action. Also know that the clerks have no involvement in this process as it is not strictly ArbCom business (but rather staffed by members of the community). Regards, AGK 14:21, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- This diatribe, dated August 6, I find especially concerning, including: While I don't pretend to be a therapist or a loved one of Fladrif, I do consider myself a friend (yes, it is possible to be a friend even to a wild animal). While there's no doubt that Fladrif has had some civility issues in the past, since the arbitration case closed his behavior on the TM talk pages has been overall quite good, and I don't see any provocation that might reasonably account for these continuing and escalating personal attacks.
- The assertion in David Spector's statement that Will BeBack "constantly objects to any edit proposed by pro-TM editors and always sides with Fladrif" is simply and demonstrably inaccurate. I don't have time to look up diffs at the moment, but as a longtime observer of the TM pages, I am quite sure that diffs can easily be found showing Will disagreeing with Fladrif and agreeing to proposed edits by pro-TM editors. Woonpton (talk) 17:06, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning David Spector
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
Appeal by Loosmark
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
- Appealing user
- Loosmark (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Dr. Loosmark 20:01, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Statement by Loosmark
I am appealing the sanction because it seems harsh and well useless. I don't know if technically broke the interaction ban, however it's clear that my intention was to avoid getting into trouble - that's way I asked admin Sandstein what I am allowed to do. I think such behavior - (asking an admin when in doubt) should be encouraged rather than punished. What exactly is Sandstein trying to prevent with this block? That I ask him again what am I allowed to do? Dr. Loosmark 20:01, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Statement by Sandstein
I recommend that the appeal be declined for the reasons given on my talk page. I did consider taking no action in this instance for the reasons enunciated by Fut. Perf., but then considered that this is Loosmark's fifth block for violating his interaction ban (I wonder what it takes to get the message across that "no interaction" means "no interaction"?) and I am heartily sick of the general waste of time caused by the persistent inability of these two editors to work productively together.
To help contribute to wasting less time, and taking into consideration that such sanctions are meant to be discretionary, if I come across such appeals on unblock patrol, I do not submit them to the community for review just because I personally would have come to a different conclusion (which is frequently the case), but only if the sanction is both substantial and clearly unjustifiable. I ask Fut.Perf. to consider adopting a similar policy in the case of future appeals. Sandstein 20:51, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)
Statement by Tropical wind
What about this offensive insult? Tropical wind (talk) 15:55, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Loosmark
I'd be inclined to support an unblock here. Sandstein's instructions about what to do and what not to do in case of mutual complaints between the two users involved in the no-interaction ban were clear but (justifiably) quite intricate – so intricate indeed that I wouldn't hold it against a user if they momentarily couldn't remember what they were supposed to do or not to do (in a situation where both had just made a complaint against the other, within the rules). Loosmark merely asked if he could comment , and in doing so, he carefully abstained from making any implied or covert comments or hints as to what he was going to say, so this was not, in my reading, an attempt to wikilawyer his way around the restriction, but an honest question. I understand Sandstein wishes to be as precise in his execution of the rules as possible, but I personally wouldn't have blocked for this. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:23, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
I completely fail to grasp why Loosmark can't ask for clarification of his ban. As to 5 bans of Loosmark-3 of them are made by Sandstein. I think that this perhaps is getting too emotional for both sides which are becoming to engaged with each other.In regards to the above ban, Loosmark was clearly asking for simple clarification of what he can do, that isn't harmfull or disruptive to my view.(The whole interaction ban btw is failure in my view, since blocks depend on nothing precise and are decided it seems on what Sandstein thinks and obviously neither Varsavian or Loosmark can guess that without asking Sandstein in the first place. Clear rules should be made and explained rather than vogue descriptions that can't be be even asked about as this would result in potential ban).--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 01:22, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Sandstein, I think it was perfectly understandable for Loosmark to ask about this in the first place even though perhaps in the strictest sense it was a violation. Also, with the block put in place I think he clearly understands that even making such innocent inquiries can be interpreted as a violation of the ban. So the block really serves no purpose at this point - how about just rescinding it with the understanding that Loosmark understands etc.?radek (talk) 02:10, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Loosmark
Closing this as not overturned, since the appeal is evidently not getting any further traction from uninvolved administrators, and will soon become stale because the block will expire within the next day anyway. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:10, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.41.132.*
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning 41.132.*
- User requesting enforcement
- Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:18, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Anonymous editor on 41.32.* range at Bulgars and related articles, most recently 41.132.178.5 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary sanctions (incivility, edit-warring, POV-pushing)
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Edit-warring against consensus of multple editors, OR-pushing, on Cumans:
- Same on Bulgars:
- Incivility: (and see also the edit summaries of those above)
- Refuses to heed WP:V and other policies
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- "DIGWUREN" warning by Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs)
- patient attempt to engage in discussion by Cplakidas (talk · contribs)
- 3RR warning by Fut.Perf. (latest rv's were after this warning)
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- Topic ban from all articles relating to Bulgaria, the Bulgars, and other Turkic groups
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- This is a highly persistent anon POV-warrior who has been pushing nationally motivated OR/fringe positions on Bulgaria, Bulgars, Bulgar calendar, Cumans, Kipchaks and other related articles for several months, revert-warring against a consensus of multiple expert editors. Most of his edits are to remove or argue against the scholarly consensus that the ancient Bulgars and other nomadic group in early medieval Europe were Turkic peoples. He edits from semi-dynamic IPs in an easily recognisable range. We need a topic ban, i.e. a blanket license to revert and block new IP appearances on sight.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning 41.132.*
Statement by 41.132.*
Comments by others about the request concerning 41.132.*
- Fully agree with Fut Perf. This is a highly disruptive, combative, uncivil and opinionated editor, who doesn't seem ready to ever sit down and discuss, not when it is about The Truth. Constantine ✍ 16:47, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Seems to be a hopeless case. A cautionary post from at the anon's talkpage resulted in a reply on my talkpage with heading "Ignoramus". And I should point out that I haven't even hinted at any kind of opinion about the subject issue. Peter 17:05, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Procedural note: the IP has been blocked for 24hrs as a short-term measure against the ongoing edit war, by Courcelles . That of course means he can't comment here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:13, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- I've notified the IP about this and pointed out that it's possible to make a comment or appeal at the talkpage (I'm assuming that the block doesn't cover that too). Peter 23:09, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with Future Perfect, Sandstein and PhilKnight that a topic ban should be applied. Since this editor hops IPs, it may help to clarify where he usually edits from. All his edits so far come from the range defined by 41.132.178.0/24 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)). The individual IPs that are clearly him are
- 41.132.178.5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 41.132.178.34 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 41.132.178.85 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 41.132.178.195 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 41.132.178.235 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- (His earliest edit is 14 May). IPs from this range who *may not* be him are 41.132.178.229, 41.132.178.11, 41.132.178.180, 41.132.178.183, 41.132.178.237, 41.132.178.192, 41.132.178.217, and 41.132.178.132 (this is going back to 22 March). In case there is any trouble getting him to observe a topic ban, I think a block of the above range for up to two months might be considered. EdJohnston (talk) 17:12, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning 41.132.*
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
I agree that this seems to be a persistent and disruptive WP:TRUTH-pusher and am inclined to impose the requested topic ban, unless the user makes a very convincing statement why that should not be done, or another admin objects, in the next 24 hours. Sandstein 19:45, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Agree that a topic ban should be applied. PhilKnight (talk) 20:10, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Russavia
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Russavia
- User requesting enforcement
- radek (talk) 19:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Russavia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- "Russavia (talk · contribs) is prohibited from commenting on or unnecessarily interacting with editors from the EEML case, except in the case of necessary dispute resolution."
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Russavia has inserted themselves into a middle of an ongoing dispute between myself, Chumchum7 and others. The question as to whether the controversy about Polish participation is notable or not has been a long running subject of this dispute and Russavia is obviously taking a side here, unnecessarily interacting with me, and so in a clear violation of his restriction. The edit can also be seen as provocative in and of itself, and given the heated nature of that dispute this appears to be a straight forward attempt at "pouring gasoline onto a fire"
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- block
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- This is Russavia's second violation in a short period of time, after this . Wait. Actually it's his fourth if we count his comments at Miacek's appeal and his request at this very board not too long ago against himself in violation of WP:POINT. Russavia is clearly and deliberately trying to test the boundaries of his interaction ban. Since the ban is mutual, I am of course also forbidden from interacting with Russavia except for purposes of necessary dispute resolution. This is necessary dispute resolution, as Russavia jumped into an argument I was having with somebody else.
- Re to Future Perfect: Future Perfect, it's not even about editing the same article. If Russavia had only edited the section on Australian participation then I would not have had a problem with that. But instead he chose to edit the section on Polish participation, one in which I have been extensively involved. That's not participating in 'necessary dispute resolution', that's CREATING a dispute between himself and me, where none existed, in clear violation of the interaction ban. Am I allowed to undo his edit or revert him? Am I allowed to edit articles on Nashi or Air Fiji or The Diplomatic Relations of Russia and Australia? Am I allowed to edit the article on the 2010 Moscow Victory Parade? Specifically making edits against Russavia?
- The fact that editor A edits an article does not AUTOMATICALLY mean that the article is off-limits for B. But it does mean that B should not jump into any disputes that A is having on that article and should take care to avoid interaction with A on that article. Russavia's not doing that - quite the opposite.radek (talk) 20:38, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Or think of this way. Now Russavia has made this edit to the talk page . I take my interaction ban with him to mean that I cannot respond to this or to undue his edits to the article. Yet, this is precisely the subject I've been involved in on the article for some time now. If it is okay for him to make these statements despite his interaction ban, and I cannot reply to these comments, I am effectively frozen out of the discussion that I had been a part off much longer then he. If I CAN reply to them, then the interaction ban is pretty meaningless. So a different way of phrasing your question would be: if editors A and B have a mutual interaction ban, and editor A is working on the article and editor B comes in - and this is judged not to be a violation of the interaction ban - then is editor A prohibited from replying or continuing to work on the article? The obvious answer is "no". But that means that either the initial edits by B are in violation of the interaction ban, or the interaction ban simply doesn't exists for all practical purposes.radek (talk) 20:46, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Right. So on the same day that all of sudden Russavia pops up in an article I am involved with, which he has never edited before, and inserts himself into the middle of a dispute I am involved in, his close buddy Petri Krohn also pops up in an article I am involved with, which he has never edited before, and inserts himself into the middle of a dispute I am involved in. Oh yeah, sure, coincidence, one was just checking Parade articles and the other looking for random articles to move.
I would also like to ask that whoever the administrator is that takes on this request, they allow me to contact them privately, as I'm pretty sure something else is going on here which I do not care to discuss on Wiki.radek (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Russavia
Statement by Russavia
Comments by others about the request concerning Russavia
- I'm not entirely certain to what extent the "no-interaction" ban is meant to cover also editing of the same articles. After all, the rule contains the modification "... except in the case of necessary dispute resolution" – which implies that there must be conceivable, legitimate occasions where the editors involved actually have a dispute in the first place, which seems to imply content disagreements over articles. Does the ban really mean that once A has edited an article, that article is off-limits for B? Not sure. Thoughts? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:24, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Arbitrators don't usually intervene in these discussions, but as the drafter of that language in the decision, I can state that it was not intended to mean that these users can't edit the same articles. Of course they are required to abide by all other applicable policies and any relevant restrictions when they do so. (Not commenting on the merits of this request beyond answering Fut.Perf.'s question.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:57, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- I find nothing surprising in Russavia editing the article – after all he recently created 2010 Moscow Victory Day Parade. However, I find this accusation by User:Radeksz that I was stalking him at Talk:Jewish community of Danzig#name unacceptable. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:10, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Russavia
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
User:TimidGuy and User:Littleolive oil and Edith Sirius Lee
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning the above three editors
- User requesting enforcement
- --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:27, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- TimidGuy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Littleolive oil (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Edith Sirius Lee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- "that editor repeatedly or seriously violates the behavioural standards or editorial processes of Misplaced Pages in connection with these articles."
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
A RfC was filled here TimidGuy deemed these editors misinformed and thus no need to listen to their advice. These violation have been ongoing by these WP:SPAs. Many incorrect accusations have been made including Timidguy insults my usage of source , little more than a personal attack. They continue to agree among themselves and attempt to use Misplaced Pages as a method to advertise their organization.
- Littleolive reverts consensus in RfC:
- TimidGuy reverts consensus in RfC:
- TimidGuy does not follow RfC:
- Littleolive does not follow RfC:
- TimidGuy removed references in the lead
- Edith Sirius Lee reverts changes
- Prior warnings
Timidguy was warned above. Littleolive oil was warned here Edith was warned here Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:39, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- block
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning above users
Statement by TimidGuy
Doc persists in putting erroneous information in the science paragraph in the lead. For example, he writes, "Independently done systematic reviews have not found health benefits for TM beyond relaxation or health education," and his citations include Ospina 2007. But Ospina found just the opposite in regard to relaxation: "When compared to PMR progressive muscle relaxation, TM produced significantly greater benefits in SBP and DBP ." This is the only meta-analysis in Ospina that used relaxation as a comparator. Why is this objection, in Future Perfect's words below, "nitpicking" and "patently without merit"? There are three randomized controlled trials on TM that use relaxation as a comparator, two on blood pressure that show a benefit beyond relaxation and one on anxiety that doesn't. Is Doc correct to generalize this single trial on anxiety to all health conditions? Doing so is another misrepresentation, in my opinion. Please please please don't come to judgment on this without looking at the details. I can document many false statements made by Doc, not only in the article but in dispute resolution. For example, at RSN he characterized Ospina 2007 and Cochane 2006 as being "one of the only independent analysis of TM research.". But in fact there are scores or even hundreds of independent reviews that include research on TM. (If you do a search on Pubmed on meditation reviews, you'll get about 275 results.) Will I be given the opportunity to document his misrepresentations rather than have a rush to judgment? Future Perfect made his recommendation before I even had a chance to write a statement, let alone document the misrepresentations. In regard to respect for consensus building, look how hard I tried in this thread to build consensus regarding the science paragraph in the lead. I had tentative consensus among four editors, including Will. Fladrif kept objecting but wouldn't say specifically what he didn't like. Then Doc came in after a months-long absence from the article and, in my view, completely took over the process and subverted my effort at consensus building. TimidGuy (talk)
Regarding the specific diffs. I made a single revert to the version that had corrected some of Doc's misrepresentations. The second diff shows my addition of sourced, relevant material. The third shows a deletion of a source that Doc had misrepresented. Doc quoted statements from the source that were directly about the four randomized controlled trials that were examined in the review. None of those four studies was on TM. TimidGuy (talk) 11:28, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- I am more than happy to address Timid's point as I have on the talk page for the article. Let me provide the exact text supporting the passage:
Independently done systematic reviews have not found health benefits for TM beyond relaxation or health education. <ref>{{cite book|author=Ospina MB, Bond TK, Karkhaneh M, Tjosvold L, Vandermeer B, Liang Y, Bialy L, Hooton N, Buscemi N, Dryden DM, Klassen TP.|url= http://www.ahrq.gov/downloads/pub/evidence/pdf/meditation/medit.pdf|title= Meditation Practices for Health: State of the Research|publisher= ]|page=4|date=June 2007 |quote=A few studies of overall poor methodological quality were available for each comparison in the meta-analyses, most of which reported nonsignificant results. TM® had no advantage over health education to improve measures of systolic blood pressure and diastolic blood pressure, body weight, heart rate, stress, anger, self-efficacy, cholesterol, dietary intake, and level of physical activity in hypertensive patients}}</ref> <ref name=Cochrane10>{{cite journal |author=Krisanaprakornkit T, Ngamjarus C, Witoonchart C, Piyavhatkul N |title=Meditation therapies for attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) |journal=Cochrane Database Syst Rev |volume=6 |issue= |pages=CD006507 |year=2010 |pmid=20556767 |doi=10.1002/14651858.CD006507.pub2 |url= |quote =For this study there was no statistically significant difference between the meditation therapy group and the drug therapy group on the teacher rating ADHD scale (MD -2.72, 95% CI -8.49 to 3.05, 15 patients). Likewise, there was no statistically significant difference between the meditation therapy group and the standard therapy group on the teacher rating ADHD scale (MD -0.52, 95% CI -5.88 to 4.84, 17 patients). There was also no statistically significant difference between the meditation therapy group and the standard therapy group in the distraction test (MD -8.34, 95% CI -107.05 to 90.37, 17 patients).}}</ref> <ref name=Cochrane06>{{cite journal|author=Krisanaprakornkit T, Krisanaprakornkit W, Piyavhatkul N, Laopaiboon M |title=Meditation therapy for anxiety disorders |journal=Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews |volume=|issue=1 |pages=CD004998 |year=2006 |pmid=16437509 |doi=10.1002/14651858.CD004998.pub2 |ref=harv| quote=The small number of studies included in this review do not permit any conclusions to be drawn on the effectiveness of meditation therapy for anxiety disorders. Transcendental meditation is comparable with other kinds of relaxation therapies in reducing anxiety}}</ref>
- So the executive summary support the comparison to health education. The 2006 Cochrane paper supports the comparison to relaxation. And the 2010 Cochrane paper come to similar conclusion for ADHD not finding evidence of effectiveness. Progressive muscle relaxation is not the same as relaxation. In the rest of TimidGuys response he misunderstand what a Cochrane meta analysis is. Cochrane looks at all the studies done by doing an exhaustive review of the literature. It specifically discusses a couple trials on ADHD and TM. And based on the poor data concludes that the evidence has not found benefits.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:03, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning TimidGuy
Statement by Littleolive oil
I'll be able to comment later today. In the meantime, I would request commenting admins look carefully at the diffs Doc presented, the research section of the TM article and in relation to the lead, so they are aware of the research. Further, could diffs be provided that indicate non compliant behaviour, per individual editor, such as the supposed tag team editing, so decisions are informed and fair. Thanks.(olive (talk) 15:24, 9 August 2010 (UTC))
Comments by others about the request concerning Littleolive oil
Statement by Edith Sirius Lee
Comments by others about the request concerning Edith Sirius Lee
Prior to registering a username, ESL also posted fairly extensively for ~10 days as
- Special:Contributions/67.230.155.29;
- Special:Contributions/67.230.155.38;
- Special:Contributions/67.230.154.111;
- Special:Contributions/67.230.154.243;
- Special:Contributions/67.230.154.70; and
- Special:Contributions/67.230.154.96.
It has been suggested that ESL is not a new editor, given a level of familiarity with Misplaced Pages policies that is atypical of new editors. I genuinely think that ESL is not a sock of one of the editors who were parties to the TM ArbCom case, solely on the basis of the occasional odd sentence structure or choice of vocabulary, suggesting to me that English, or at least standard American/Canadian/British English, may not be ESL's first language. Whether or not that perception is accurate, ESL was advised, prior to the edits Doc has listed, and in connection with other problematic edits, including an earlier reversion of sourced material which Doc has not listed , that the TM ArbCom decision's discretionary sanctions apply to all editors, not just editors who were parties to the case at the time. Fladrif (talk) 15:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- I must say I am quite dismayed at the 'rush to judgement' type comment that was posted by Fut Perf six hours after the case was opened. It was posted before any of the defendants had made any statements and it makes many sweeping generalizations that, in my opinion, are not accurate. Anyone who takes the time to examine the diffs and the talk page threads and the edit history's of the accused editors, and their accuser, will see that DocJames has a long history of mis-representation of sources and disruptive editing. As for COI accusations, this has long been used as an intimidation stick by some editors and accusations of COI and POV pushing were levied against parties on both sides of the fence on the recent TM ArbCom but there were no findings, at that time, against any party on either side. Our job now is look to look at recent edits since the decisions on June 4, 2010 and determine who is violating the ArbCom decision. Is it the accused or the accuser?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:16, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning TimidGuy, Littleolive oil, and Edith Sirius Lee
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
I agree that some of the behaviour described above is problematic. What I see on Talk:Transcendental Meditation is a persistent effort, mostly by TimidGuy, to block consensus by an endless row of objections of wikilawyering and nitpicking nature, aimed at deemphasizing the findings of studies critical of TM. Many of these objections, mostly about the correctness of summaries of the research literature proposed by other editors, appear to be patently without merit. Taken in isolation, such objections would probably count as normal good-faith content disagreements, but in the larger picture and given their constant, long-time effect of blocking effective consensus-building, they take on the character of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT disruption, especially as he and the other editors who support his viewpoint are refusing to listen to independent outside input, which was successfully elicited by the RFC.
There is also evident tag-team revert warring. Moreover, Edith Sirius Lee (talk · contribs) is yet another single-purpose agenda account that suddenly appeared after the conclusion of the Arbcom case. In this topic domain, which has been plagued by single purpose editors and COI problems, this is in itself highly problematic.
I therefore propose to enact the following sanctions:
- TimidGuy (talk · contribs) to be topic-banned from TM-related articles and discussion for a short-to-medium period, let's say 2 months, to give the discussions a bit of breathing space.
- independent of this, all three editors (TimidGuy, Littleolive and Edith Sirius Lee), to be placed on a collective 1RR limitation to stop tag-team reverts (that is, these three editors together are not allowed to revert more than once per 24hrs).
Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- Having reviewed the situation further, I have become even more convinced that the above measures are needed. I am therefore now imposing the measures as outlined above. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Δ
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Δ
- User requesting enforcement
- 67.80.250.138 (talk) 08:11, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Δ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- term portion "1. You edit under only one username" of the provisional suspension of his community ban as recorded at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard/Archive 4#Provisional_suspension_of_community_ban:_Betacommand
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- and Explanations in no uncertain terms by Xeno (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Explanation by Jack Merridew (talk · contribs)
- and Explanations in no uncertain terms by Kirill Lokshin (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- and Explanations in no uncertain terms by Anomie (talk · contribs)
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- block and rescind provisional suspension of community ban (reinstate community ban) for Betacommand, Δ, Δbot, and their doppelgangers
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Between 22:14, 15 July 2010 and 15:56, 28 July 2010 (UTC), Δbot (talk · contribs) made 78 edits at the direction of Δ (talk · contribs)/Betacommand (talk · contribs) and in violation of term portion "1. You edit under only one username" of the provisional suspension of his community ban as recorded at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard/Archive 4#Provisional_suspension_of_community_ban:_Betacommand, before doing so was approved in the motion Enacted at 07:02, 31 July 2010 (UTC) and recorded at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Betacommand 2#Motion. Furthermore, the last of those edits appears to have been an automated task emulating DumZiBoT (talk · contribs) and linking to User:DumZiBoT/refLinks, which automated task was not one of the "automated tasks directly related to the clerking of sockpuppet investigations only as specified and authorized by the Bot Approvals Group" per Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Betacommand 2#Motion, and was therefore unauthorized.
@Future Perfect at Sunrise the last edit was not authorized by the Committee, BAG, or the Community. 67.80.250.138 (talk) 08:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Δ
Statement by Δ
I wish people would come to my talkpage before coming to places like this that just stir up drama. I was given a three day trial for the bot, (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Bots/Requests_for_approval/%CE%94bot&diff=373692824&oldid=373680411) which covers all but one edit. The last edit was an accident, I am working on a wikitext parser/cleanup tool and was attempting to include the features of reflinks.py (a pywiki script) into my parser and I made a mistake with a single edit that was logged under the bots name. Its was nothing major and wont happen again. So instead of trying to stir up a drama over nothing lets just get back to improving wikipedia. ΔT 12:18, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Δ
- Why on earth let the opportunity to continue the lynching go by??? Way to go, anon-IP! <cough> --Hammersoft (talk) 13:40, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Δ
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
This seems evidently stale, given that the rules have been superceded by the new Arbcom motion, which has explicitly authorized Δbot. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:38, 9 August 2010 (UTC)