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Jiujitsuguy and Eric1985 blocked indefinitely for off-wiki canvassing regarding Israel/Palestine

This is going to be a tough one, so bear with me. Today, I blocked Jiujitsuguy (talk · contribs) and Eric1985 (talk · contribs) for two independent incidents in which they have been inciting people, through off-Misplaced Pages blogs, websites, and political magazines, to come to Misplaced Pages to correct what they believe is an anti-Israel bias on Misplaced Pages. I received evidence about their actions via e-mails from two separate editors, following a thread at WP:AE. In the case of Jiujitsuguy, I can't really point to the specific websites I'm talking about because they include his real name. In the case of Eric1985, the actions come from a website called WikiBias (the writer intentionally omits his name there); once again, though, I can't explain how the connection to this website was made because it includes exposing personal information.

You can see for yourselves the nature of WikiBias. It's not heavy on personal attacks and he also seems to caution potential recruits about violating Misplaced Pages's policies (noting what sockpuppetry, edit-warring, and the concept of NPOV are). However, the website is a clear violation of WP:MEAT, not merely expressing his views about Misplaced Pages in a general manner, but repeatedly pointing editors to discussions and asking them to participate in them (e.g. "View the discussion on the move, and chime in with your opinion if appropriate, on the discussion page." ). He also has a how-to guide that isn't just about getting started on Misplaced Pages, but rather about gaming the system.

With Jiujitsuguy, again, I can't post the particular websites, but it's more of the same. He's less systematic than WikiBias -- he's only got a couple of articles on various websites advocating disruptive behavior -- but his rhetoric is far more inappropriate, referring to Wikipedians as, for example, Islamofascists. Again, he provides a how-to guide for gaming the system on Misplaced Pages, with the intent to push his agenda. Further, Jiujitsuguy has a very colorful history on Misplaced Pages, one which -- trust me -- his block log doesn't fully express.

I'd like to get a review of the situation, but I'm not sure the evidence should be freely handed out to every single admin that requests it. Concurrent with this post, I have forwarded the evidence from Nableezy (talk · contribs) and Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs), the two editors who sent me e-mails, to ArbCom. But at the very least, the concept of this kind of off-wiki canvassing can be discussed here. During the ArbCom proceedings for the CAMERA debacle (May 2008), there was the conclusion that simply being a meatpuppet wasn't grounds alone for an indefinite block, and that one's on-wiki actions were paramount. But in both these situations, it wasn't that they were the meatpuppets; they were the meatpuppeteers. Still, some might argue that these blog posts are outside of our interest, as people are free to hold whatever positions and opinions in real life. Surely, many of the editors in the Israel-Palestine area hold similarly firm views and may even be coordinating efforts over secret mailing lists.

However, I feel both of these cases are of very serious concern for Misplaced Pages. The Israel-Palestine area, as I'm sure you know, is still a minefield, with protections, bans, and blocks being doled out on a weekly basis and some bitter dispute always brewing (and the ArbCom proceedings of January 2008 not sufficiently putting an end to the nonsense there). I don't see any reason why editors who seek to bring additional agenda-driven editors to the equation should be permitted to edit in this area or, given the clear subversion of Misplaced Pages policies, anywhere else on Misplaced Pages.

Any and all remarks on the matter are welcome. -- tariqabjotu 18:39, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget this quote from Eric1985s Wikibias: "So, I have started this blog to publish the often hidden problems of the world’s free online encyclopedia. I plan to work with other Wiki editors on this site, and we must be totally anonymous in order to keep our accounts on the site." and his post at WP Israel: "Occassionally, I send people here to help with the efforts." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:33, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

On a side note, people might also want to note the wingnut that posted a comment on the blog post you just linked to, who seems to be hosting training conferences for Zionist Misplaced Pages editors ... -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 20:09, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I saw the blocks and the report at WP:AE earlier. I believe that, assuming the blocked editors are responsible for what you say they are responsible for, then the blocks are within the terms of the WP:ARBPIA discretionary sanctions. However, rather than relying purely on your own judgement, I think your best course of action is to submit all the evidence you have to the Arbitration Committee for review. CIreland (talk) 18:45, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I forwarded the evidence to ArbCom at the same time I made this post. I fixed a typographical error to clarify that. -- tariqabjotu 18:49, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Excellent work to protect the wiki. I applaud your blocks. Binksternet (talk) 18:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

This is not directly related to the case above, but it is relevant. Perhaps ARBCOM and Misplaced Pages in general should, in the future, investigate if certain articles and areas should be restricted to edits made by a some sort of "board" comprised of appointed or elected individuals. While this goes against the mantra of "an encyclopedia that anyone can edit", its blatently obvious that the current system has failed and attempts to "fix" it are only met by abuse of the system. ARBCOM rules are routinely circumvented, and enforcement of the rules are not consistent; that is to say, we currently have editors who have stated its their mission to bring for "such and such truth" to the situation, when in reality they are just battlefield warriors intent on making sure their own position reigns supreme (with numerous blocks, bans, etc..etc to their edit history). Assume Good Faith editing has failed, and while it is a main tenant of Misplaced Pages, its being used as a tool to promote agendas and can potentially open the door for all sorts of liabilities. --nsaum75 19:06, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

This is actually an area where I had hoped that sighted edits/flagged revisions would be useful. The higher level of protection would mean that you and I and other users who have been around for a long time without getting banned or blocked can edit the articles without problem; constructive contributions by new users and IPs can get through after a little while; and trouble making socks don't get their material through without it being reversed without getting its publicity. In order to get to put stuff in directly, the sockpuppeteers would actually have to do a substantial number of constructive edits over an extended period of time which should mean that Misplaced Pages gets some useful work out of them before they can go to town with their POV-pushing.--Peter cohen (talk) 00:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Seeking other editors is acceptable. Unfortunately, Jiujitsuguy did word it in a way that was asking for some inappropriate covert tactics. I think a indefinite is a little harsh but do understand how big of a concern it was.

I still believe Nableezy outing Jiujitsuguy on a forum related to all this terrible in a completely different way. It was not his place to do that. That could have led to harassment or something even worse. And he shouldn't have mentioned it on Misplaced Pages since it came across like he was asking people to dig out the information.

Hopefully we can put this situation behind us. If Jiujitsuguy does come back way down the road and request reinstatement it should be considered and watched closely.Cptnono (talk) 19:41, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I still believe Nableezy outing Jiujitsuguy on a forum... He did no such thing. Not here, not anywhere. I never suggested he did, and I don't think Nableezy has either. -- tariqabjotu 22:44, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes he did. I'm not the only one who has commented on this.Cptnono (talk) 16:44, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

No I have not. Such a serious charge should not be made without evidence and repeating it without evidence should result in a block. nableezy - 21:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

You most certainly have, and you are aware of this fact, so your denials ring hollow. Enigma 03:25, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Some person wrote a piece in a certain online magazine saying that as a Misplaced Pages editor they did A, B, and C and that the reaction to that was X, Y, and Z. I, on a "bad site", said an editor who did A, B, and C which resulted in X, Y, and Z is editor D. That is not outing, even if outing applied to off-wiki actions. WP:OUTING requires me to post private information. The person who wrote the piece in this unnamed online magazine gave that information, I posted nothing that was not made publicly available by that person. Connecting dots that person freely provides is not outing. nableezy - 07:23, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

That is the very definition of outing, actually. How do you think anyone's identity is discovered? Someone "connects the dots" and decides to inform everyone else of the editor's identity. Every outing case I can remember was like that. So yours is a textbook case. You can call it what you like, but it was certainly outing. Enigma 12:31, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Id like to call it what it was, which isnt outing. nableezy - 19:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

It most certainly was outing. Would you like me to conduct an informal poll? You have no protection here. Tariq apparently has decided he can block people based on comments on other sites, and you outed another editor on a widely-read Misplaced Pages related site. Feel free to connect those dots and tell me the answer here. Enigma 22:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Outing requires releasing private information. The editor himself made all that information public, so it cannot be outing. I am not looking for "protection" here or anywhere else. If I did not release any private information then I, by definition, did not out anybody. Can you please tell me exactly what private information I released? If not, kindly stfu and take your inane threats to somebody who might be scared by them. nableezy - 23:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Once again, we can conduct a poll if you disagree. Insulting me is not going to help your cause. Enigma 23:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The very definition of outing is at WP:OUTING and involves "posting another person's personal information" which includes "legal name, date of birth, identification numbers, home or workplace address, job title and work organisation, telephone number, email address, or other contact information". Was that done here? I don't see it. Outing is a constant problem at WP:COIN and I deal with it all the time but I don't see it here unless I missed something. -- Atama頭 16:33, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

No, that was not done. This is exactly what happened; somebody wrote an article on a somewhat well-known online magazine that was subsequently published in an Israeli paper. In that piece they said that they were a Misplaced Pages editor who made certain edits to certain articles and that those edits drew certain responses. I, on WR, wrote that an editor who had made those exact edits that had generated those exact responses was editor D. I did not post any information that was not publicly available either from the author's own words or from the edits here. nableezy - 19:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I really can't see any effective difference! Saying "JoeEditor is (click here for name)" , or even providing a specific means (say through Google Search) is no different than naming him outright. If you connect all the dots but one, and then put the pencil in someone's hand, guiding it carefully, you haven't done anything less than connect all the dots. Especially when Nableezy is asking for a very broad interpretation of policy to allow Tariq to keep the two editors blocked through AE, to ask for a very narrow interpretation of policy on outing seems, well, self serving. Especially when he is asking for people to be blocked for stating, or repeating statements, that he committed outing.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I have not asked for anything, much less "a very broad interpretation of policy". I provided evidence to tariq and he made his own decision as to what the appropriate action for him to take was. To your first "point", the "effective difference" is that the editor himself provided all that information and made it public. Let me repeat that in case it you couldnt understand it the first time. The editor himself made that information public. It cannot be "outing" when no private information is revealed. nableezy - 23:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

n(edit conflict) Exactly. You connected the dots when it wasn't your place to. You made it known that editor x was the blogger (or whatever that stuff is) y. It was also a forum discussing Misplaced Pages so it was obvious that there were fellow editors there. Others might have been able to figure it out. That is fine. They weren't the ones to broadcast it on a forum as you did. And then you went on to discuss it on Misplaced Pages which JJG thought was in an effort to get people to start digging themselves. That makes sense to me. Also might just be over analyzing it. But at the end of the day, it was not appropriate for you to make a post with your findings over there. You should at least admit that it was a lapse of judgment. To assert that there was absolutely nothing wrong just isn't right. Cptnono (talk) 19:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

uggh. There was nothing wrong. nableezy - 23:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but if an editor publically says, "I made edits A, B and C," they've outed themselves. There's nothing to "connect the dots" with; pointing out the account name isn't outing, at that point. — The Hand That Feeds You: 22:30, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. nableezy - 23:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Well said Hand. Enigma you should let this go. If you took a poll it would not come out in your favor. Maybe you should both disengage since this entire conversation is pretty pointless and is now just turning uncivil.Griswaldo (talk) 23:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I would love a poll. There is a chance that I am wrong so I would be curious to see what people think. Several editors have called this outing and I agree. And how has it turned not civil?Cptnono (talk) 04:38, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

There is more than a chance that you are wrong. Can you, or anybody else say what private information I revealed? You can call it outing if you wish, that just makes you wrong. I am not going to respond to anymore of these bs accusations. Unless you or anybody else can say what private information I revealed there is nothing to respond to. nableezy - 06:03, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Cptnono, if you really, truly want a community discussion about this matter open up a new AN/I. Regarding your question, Nableezy and Enigma started getting uncivil to each other just above. There is no productive discussion going on here anymore about the blocks the thread concerns. You and Enigma want to piggy back your poll request onto this discussion. If you stand by your assessment of Nableezy's behavior being wrong and you think a poll is appropriate start a new AN/I and suggest such a poll and see where it goes. The current discussion is pointless though.Griswaldo (talk) 12:35, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Not exactly. More accurately, Nableezy started attacking me. I merely pointed out that "connecting the dots" regarding someone's identity is most certainly outing. Enigma 18:04, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

That wasnt an attack. If I ever do attack you it wont be asking you to either back your accusation or shut up. Can you say what private information I revealed? If there was no private information revealed it was not outing. You being an admin does not allow you to continue to make false accusations without providing evidence. nableezy - 20:08, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Facepalm Except, as we discussed just now, it's not outing in this instance. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:26, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Facepalm Except, as we discussed just now, it is outing in this instance. Or it at least might be. See how I did that? Several people think it is outing. Just because you don't... Cptnono (talk) 04:46, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Arbcom Amendment?

I started to write an Arb amendment request and I still think that may be what's needed to deal with this. I think there's a number of troubling aspects about the situation:

1. You have the WP:ARBPIA decision and discretionary sanctions which were put in place to help control these types of disputes. It has clear guidance for admins on how to deal with these disputes (though It's debatable about how effective they are given the repetition of names on the log).
2. You have the WP:CAMERA decision (note: any reference I make to CAMERA is to the decision and not the organization) which is almost an extension of ARBPIA. Here it clearly covers the topic of canvassing and in this case it was on ARBPIA articles. However, CAMERA did not put forth guidance or discretionary sanctions like ARBPIA did and it doesn't offer much direction on how to handle the very sensitive issue of reviewing the outside wiki evidence. You get into issues of WP:OUTING so you can't really make it public but if it's not public then how do you determine who gets it and who reviews it? CAMERA says to bring it to Arbcom but I don't know if that is practical.
3. I have a growing concern of witch-hunts. Those who bring these accusations of off-wiki canvassing may not have the purest of motivations themselves. In this case those involved have consumed many admin resources themselves with warnings, bans and blocks for ARBPIA violations.

I think going to Arbcom requesting some guidance is what's in order. I think the CAMERA principles of dealing with external groups and collective guilt should be added to ARBPIA. This would bring those actions under the same process of sanctions. Then a method of dealing with off-wiki evidence should be set up and I think that's something Arbcom needs to facilitate given the sensitive nature of it. Perhaps a workgroup with a mailing list solely for that issue.

All in all I think you did the best you could with the guidance we've been given Tariq. I am a bit concerned we may be condemning by association or condemning for off-wiki acts without corresponding evidence of an organized campaign on wiki. --WGFinley (talk) 19:13, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

In addition to the CAMERA Arbcom case, I think the more recent WP:EEML case is also relevant to the issue of off-wiki actions. CIreland (talk) 19:28, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm a bit surprised by Tariqajotu's actions. First, I think he should have given the editors in question the opportunity to defend themselves. Second, if he was minded to do it, he should have consulted with other admins. Third of all, if he did do it, the thing to do is allow for actual review of his actions here, rather than shove it upstairs to ArbCom. I see no difference waiting a few hours would have made. Frankly, if we're dealing with off-wiki actions, I'm a lot more concerned with Nableezy's alleged outing of another editor. In response to Tariqajotu's offer to email the evidence to any admin, I do so request.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:49, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Where did Nableezy out another editor? Diff please? All I can see is his comment "There is unambiguous proof that Jiujitsuguy has violated WP:MEAT several times, though that proof requires linking to sites which contain his real name so I cant do that here." That seems to me like an explicit refusal to out another editor. The allegation that he outed another editor appears baseless, and should be withdrawn.RolandR (talk) 20:06, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Read the thread. I did not say it was on wiki. Apparently it was in a forum. Since I have not yet seen it (Tariq has not yet responded to my request for the evidence), I have added the word "alleged".--Wehwalt (talk) 20:10, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

What editors (allegedly) do off-wiki is none of our concern. Are you proposing to start investigating and taking action against the many people (some of them apparently Misplaced Pages editors) who have identified and denounced me in countless forums? RolandR (talk) 20:24, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

It is when they're essentially saying: "Hey, let's cause shit on Misplaced Pages, but make sure they don't catch you: here's how..." HalfShadow 20:33, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah so. Does that apply to Jujitsuguy and Eric1985? If so, I suggest you remonstrate with Tariq, he's your go to guy on this. I have not proposed taking action about anyone, I have asked for more information and suggested fuller investigation of the circumstances. Something wrong with that?--Wehwalt (talk) 20:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

But the allegation against them is not that they made comments off-wiki, but that they were actively seeking to recruit and guide people to edit Misplaced Pages in a tendentious manner. In the absence of any evidence, it is unacceptable to make such an accusation against Nableezy. RolandR (talk) 20:34, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah, but the alleged actions took place off-wiki, and you just said what people do off wiki is none of our business.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:40, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Members of the community who may have information regarding similar efforts by external groups to unduly influence our content are urged to forward that information to the Committee for review. -quote from ArbCom in the CAMERA case. The commitee is responsible for determining who did/didn't do what others accuse, Phearson (talk) 20:12, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, and that's just it. I have no opinion on whether it is a good or poor block yet, Tariq has not yet sent me the evidence as I requested following his kind offer to all admins. I am however very concerned by the procedure here.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:20, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Wehwalt, you seem awfully aggressive about this. I have a life; it's not a crime to not respond to you within two hours. You don't need to repeat in every post that you are waiting for me to respond to your request to forward you the e-mails. In that time, I wish you had reread what I said, because I did not offer to send the evidence to all admins. What I said was "I'm not sure the evidence should be freely handed out to every single admin that requests it." -- tariqabjotu 22:42, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Why the need to involve ArbCom here? I think we are quite able to discuss a principle of "If you are found to be organising a large-scale campaign to undermine the neutrality of the project, you may be indefinitely blocked" just fine on our own. I don't see much opposition to Tariq's action, or why advocacy of this type is beyond our ability to deal with; generally speaking, the impulse to run to ArbCom at the first sign of drama is a worrying indication of creeping paternalism. Skomorokh 20:40, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, Tariq sent it there concurrently with his action. It might actually be wise to let them handle it in this case, if they are willing, as it is hard to judge Tariq's action without the evidence (still waiting) and so then then there would have to be a process of sending the info to admins who want to participate in the discussion. ArbCom has confidential listservs and other resources that we don't have.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:06, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Good points all, but I think there is enough publicly available information in this instance to make a call that does not rely on private correspondence; my main concern however is that the policy aspect of this is reflexively booted to the Committee without an attempt at hammering something out first. Skomorokh 21:11, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a suggested starting point for the discussion?--Wehwalt (talk) 21:26, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

It appears that you are coming very close to imposing a ban on off-wiki criticism by WP users. I suppose that you guys can do that if you choose, but the description control freak comes to mind. If you choose to prohibit these things, it will not change anything for the better more than have past arbcom decisions on I/P issues. Can anyone who proposes these restrictions show that past restrictions have benefited WP by improving I/P articles, or talk page discussion? Simple observation indicates the answer is no. Just lots of WP users (on both sides of the issue) blocked over the years, without any improvements to show for it. 173.52.134.182 (talk) 21:50, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

The problem isn't that he expressed opinions about Misplaced Pages or even about deficiencies. In my initial comment, I tried to contrast the acts of these two people with what would have been okay. An article on how to join Misplaced Pages and some information about how it works and its policies is okay; an article on how to game the system is not. An article talking generally about perceived biases on Misplaced Pages is okay, but an article specifically telling people to chime in on a particular discussion so they vote a particular way is not okay. In this area, many people's political positions have come out in their comments on talk pages, and they have not been penalized for them, even if the existence of them inevitably leads to battlegrounds. We can't prohibit people who have some opinion on this conflict -- many people do, in one way or another -- but we can prohibit disruptive actions. And meatpuppetry, which is what this is, is clearly disruptive. -- tariqabjotu 23:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Did they ask people to vote a certain way in discussions? And btw, you were going to provide evidence, I'd be grateful for a copy.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:08, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

It seems a control freak approach. Not to mention thought control. But all the trials I see occurring in the USA, of those accused of 'conspiracy' (essentially the accusation here too), strikes me as punishing those who might have bad thoughts, but have not actually done anything wrong. You have punished those you think have bad intentions, even though you may not be able to prove they have actually done more than talk. I am sure your intent is good, but think what you have done is more problematic than what those you call meatpuppets have done. 173.52.134.182 (talk) 23:18, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, I haven't called anyone anything. And that word "meetpuppet" is being thrown around awfully loosely here.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:22, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Wehwalt, you can read WikiBias yourself and make your own judgment, but yes, essentially, yes. If someone were to post this kind of comment on someone's talk page here, it would be unacceptable, as it's clearly intended to sway someone's vote a certain way. Also, I am not forwarding you the e-mails. -- tariqabjotu 23:30, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

As I understand it meatpuppet is essentially an accusation of conspiracy against WP. But can an act be proved, or is the accusation just that there seems to be what might be a bad thought? 173.52.134.182 (talk) 23:34, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't know. The individual, if it is one of those blocked, which has yet to be proved (and it seems evidence will not be forthcoming to support the allegation) gave his opinion, and then wrote "View the discussion on the move, and chime in with your opinion if appropriate, on the discussion page." I do not see the problem. Is this Wikibias web site only frequented by those sharing the views set forth in the post? And as this discussion seems to be going nowhere, it would be nice if some arb would let us know if the committee is considering this, or not. I am frankly very troubled by the utter lack of opportunity to respond to what was clearly not an emergency situation.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:50, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Well Eric has already said it himself as posted above:"So, I have started this blog to publish the often hidden problems of the world’s free online encyclopedia. I plan to work with other Wiki editors on this site, and we must be totally anonymous in order to keep our accounts on the site." and his post at WP Israel: "Occassionally, I send people here to help with the efforts." .. He has also called some Misplaced Pages users "anti-Semites" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Called them anti-Semites, hmmm? Sounds to me the focus of argument is shifting. He is free to call anyone anything he wants, off the wiki. Come on. I've probably been called a few choice things in my time by other Wikipedians! But off the wiki, it is no harm no foul.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

What shift? "Occassionally, I send people here to help with the efforts" What is this? Explain this to me. "I plan to work with other Wiki editors on this site, and we must be totally anonymous in order to keep our accounts on the site" In that entire blog he is wikistalking me and presenting his biased opinion and pushes his pov about my and other peoples edits and then redirects his followers to the talkpage and gives them a guide on how to game the system --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:36, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know it is the same guy. How can he wikistalk you off wiki anyway? The mind boggles!--Wehwalt (talk) 00:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

"Game the system"!? It's a guide on how to not get banned, which includes recommendations such as: don't edit just one controversial topic, don't edit-war, keep cool and civil. How is that "gaming the system"? --OpenFuture (talk) 00:54, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Anyway, I've got other things to do. I can't tell if this is a good block or not, but I am appalled by the procedure. I urge Arbcom to step in.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:02, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

In my view, it's about gaming the systems because it gives advise how to act in a way that improves the chances of having edits stay in the encyclopedia that would otherwise be deleted, and to create the appearance of being a encyclopedia-oriented editor, while actually staying ultimately focused on the partisan agenda.  Cs32en Talk to me  01:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Cs32. This is but a more subtle/sophisticated version of POV-pushing techniques that have previously been addressed by policy. By instructing an incrementalist approach to concerted advocacy editing, these partisans mean to slip POV edits under the radar. It is agenda-driven, it is gaming the system. RomaC 00:22, 25 August 2010 (UTC).

Of course with CAMERA we also had the Wikipedians for Palestine group, which never saw any consequences and for which no one was ever investigated. It is obvious that the CAMERA group and these pro-Israeli groups were simply more niave than the Wikipedians for Palestine. At the time of CAMERA, WfP was a secret group of about 12 members, whose membership was sanctioned by requirement of Wiki-name and evidence of acceptable edits. *This group disbanded almost immediately upon discovery. As far as we know, these 12 undiscovered members are still right here at Misplaced Pages (in whatever capacity). There is no reason to think they are not. It is also forgotten by many that the mailing list was brought forward by a Misplaced Pages editor who was also an employee of Electronic Intifada, who has since changed his name. If you can't act in a fair and evenhanded way across the I-P conflict area, you should do nothing. 66.186.163.30 (talk) 01:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Not having access to any of the evidence against JJG and Eric, I will take Tariq at his word with regards to the nature of the evidence against them, though I am disappointed by his refusal to provide the evidence to administrators who asked for it. With regards to the publicly available information, I must say I am underwhelmed by the nature of evidence brought forth against Wikibias. I do not share the characterization of the how-to guide as a guide to 'gaming the system' - is seems like a straightforward guide for new users, providing tips on avoiding disruptive actions that may lead to blocks. I also fail to see a big difference between Wikibias, and a site such as Misplaced Pages Review, where multiple Wikpedia editors (including administrators) regularly participate. That site, too, has wiki editors calling upon other editors to edit Wiki articles in a manner that could be described as recruiting meatpuppets - see this as one such example. HupHollandHup (talk) 02:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Question - I would like to know why Jiujitsuguy's off wiki activity produced no action when it was reported to the functionaries list/oversight team by nableezy in July but resulted in a 1 year block when reported at AE. nableezy was told to contact the oversight team. He did that. Nothing happened. I want to know why. This seems like an important matter to me. The lack of action by the oversight team after that report and lack of clarity on these off wiki issues (together with some email discussions I had with Jiujitsuguy about these matters) played a large part in my decision not to pursue the matter myself. Apparently, assuming that the 1 year block is the right decision, I made the wrong decision to not follow up on the report based largely on an assumption that the oversight team would act if action was necessary. Something has gone wrong somewhere. It would be good to know what went wrong, why and do something about it. Inconsistency in the I-P conflict area isn't helping. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:55, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think this is the answer you're looking for, but maybe the Oversight saw noting egregious that was worth following up on.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:06, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, perhaps but I would expect them to say that if that is what they decided. Having seen all the evidence that isn't Wikibias related it wasn't until I saw new evidence that I decided to take the matter up directly with nableezy and Jiujitsuguy. Even with all the evidence there is, in my view, a lack of clarity on how policy applies. Sean.hoyland - talk 06:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Question 2:

Has anyone thought of simply asking the editors under question to cease whatever they are doing wrong?

Like everyone else here, I don't the extent of the evidence against the two editors, but a basic perusal of Wikibias.com does not reveal any blatant meatpuppetry or policy dogding. If anything, how-to-guide is a pretty good instruction manual for editing Misplaced Pages and should perhaps be incorporated wikipedia's how-to pages.

The unilateral and drastic nature of user:Tariqabjotu's blocks are certainly questionable, at best, as noted above by User: Wehwalta and other editors.

I also note the inconsistency with how other alleged meatpuppetry groups are treated. As noted above, Wikipedians for Palestine is ignored. See also Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive557#Facebook event to recruit Arab and Muslim editors to contribute to the Gaza War articl, where zero action was taken.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

But I really have one question that nobody seems to be discussing. Why can't we just ask the editors to stop doing whatever they are doing wrong? What's with our obsession with blocks and bans?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Brewcrewer and the one real question here is why Tariq chose to block indefinitely when ArbCom has seen the same information and chose not to act? Poor judgment to go ahead and block without first seeking input on a issue he had to know would be contentious. Enigma 03:25, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Meatpuppetry is a serious offence and experienced users like Juijitsu have no excuse if that is what they have been engaged in. Since I have not seen all the evidence, I won't make a judgement, but for a clear case of meatpuppetry by an experienced user that would certainly be grounds for an extended ban in my view. Gatoclass (talk) 08:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree. The relentless efforts of outfits such as the Jewish Internet Defense Force to alter the fundamental tenets of fairness on Misplaced Pages makes any organized offsite meatpuppetry unacceptable. Meatpuppetry in defense of an article on a fictional character at AfD pales in comparison. Abductive (reasoning) 09:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't see anything sinister about a "how-to-guide." "Don't edit war," "Keep your cool," "Do not accuse editors of bath faith..." I'm sorry but this does not look like gaming the system. Also, how do we know the editors behind this scandal are Eric and Jiujitsuguy? No mention of wikibias is made by either, it seems the administrator made the inference. An indefinite block should require more concrete evidence. Since there really isn't an historic precedent for something like this, and clearly it is a big problem - I don't understand why the admin made a block unilaterally. I also think the offending editors should be given a forum to defend themselves, why they haven't is suspect. I imagine many editors here are afraid to say anything for fear of being lumped into the wikibias movement. I don't blame em'...Wikifan12345 (talk) 10:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

There is concrete evidence, but I'm not going to present their personal information publicly to show it to you. Obviously, they're not going to say "Oh, I edit this site" on the user page, because they know it's a problem. The author of WikiBias, who, again, I'm sure is Eric, says the same on the website. You quotes of that page are highly selective. Here are some others:

• "So you want to become a Misplaced Pages editor and join the fight for truth and fairness? Excellent, we are looking for a few good men (and some great women)." Not even hiding the fact that he treats Misplaced Pages like a battleground; he's even using a battleground metaphor.
• "A simple piece of accurate information works. Just add it. Don’t use a proper footnote, genuinely new users rarely do." He could just tell people how references should be written, but he doesn't. He wants people to feign ignorance on how to edit properly, so they don't appear as meatpuppets, people instructed to come to Misplaced Pages for some purpose.
• "Sooner or later you will notice that something that you regard as a simple fact, like the fact that Mt. Hermon is located in Israel, will be deleted by an editor who doesn’t agree with your worldview." He knows his audience.
• "Keep in mind that there have been lengthy edit was over the monumentally trivial topic of hummus. An edit war can break out on any topic at any time. Some anti-Israel editors will start an edit war with a pro-Israel user with the intention of making the pro-Israel editor so angry that he will do something stupid and get himself banned." Right. And this is why he advises against edit-warring and accusing others of bad faith. Blocked and banned users can't win content disputes.
• "While you are making a lot of effective edits, the anti-Israel gangs may take it to the next level." Again, he knows his audience. It doesn't matter if he, in reality, gets readers from across the political spectrum; the point is he intends to bring people to Misplaced Pages solely to advance his pro-Israel agenda.

Frankly, I'm not sure what's unclear about this. The fact that he may not be the leader of an influential organization shouldn't matter. The intent is still there, and the effects are impossible to measure. We shouldn't be sending the message that it's okay, so long as your website isn't very popular, or it's okay, unless we can prove that people are following your commands. -- tariqabjotu 11:46, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Tips and suggestions on how to avoid getting banned is not illegal nor against policy. Reference to Mt. Hermon is irrelevant, if anything it is positive because it tells article x is an article that is often vandalized, watch out for it. We have wikipedia projects that do the exact same thing. The comment about hummus is accurate, editors do often bait other users with differing POVs into an edit-war, often stirring up the pot and provoking conflict, then editors go to enforcement boards to get their opponents banned. It happens all the time around here. The only real problem with the guide is the 1st bulletin, telling users that "we're looking for a few good men." But this isn't the same thing as meatpuppetry, you inferred there is some conspiracy going within wikibias, grouping like-minded editors to attack articles that aren't considered pro-israel. I see no evidence to support such a conclusion - you made this inference. I'm not defending wikibias, but you are exaggerating the crime. IMO I don't see anything wrong with referring users to articles that are problematic, even if it might have a pro-Israel/pro-Palestinian slant. We have wikiprojects that group articles based on their quality class, and alert fellow members of problems and issues that should be corrected. This isn't 1984, we don't know his "intent" other than your own interpretation. For all we know wikibias was created in good-faith. I'd imagine most meat puppetry occurs behind the scenes, in a private yahoo group or something less obvious as "wikibias." Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:09, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I advised Jiujitsuguy that he and anyone he recruited to edit on Misplaced Pages was expected to edit appropriately. The question is whether he has done so, and whether there are other editors, meatpuppets, which mirror any inappropriate activity. I'm going to take a look at his editing, and at the editing of others editing the articles he has been editing. When I've done that I'll have a better idea of whether we are actually dealing with extreme POV editing by either him or others. His actual role in the "call" for editors is not that clear and he denies a central role. That is why the emphasis was placed on how he, and possibly others, edited. There is no license to engage in systemic POV editing, but that is the offense which would justify a ban, not suspicion of off-wiki plotting. Fred Talk 09:05, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Arbitrary Break

I imagine that at this point arbcom or an otherwise select group have the evidence in question and is reviewing. For obvious reasons most of us will not be able to review the evidence or make any particularly insightful comments about it. un☯mi 10:50, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I've not seen the evidence, but I trust Tariqabjotu to evaluate it competently. Under the assumption that the evidence linking these editors to offsite meatpuppetry activities holds up, therefore (and they do not appear to deny that it does), I entirely endorse the indefinite block. Engaging in covert and systematic activities to make others edit this site according to a particular POV is incompatible with the position of editor of a neutral encyclopedia, whether in the I-P conflict area or elsewhere.  Sandstein  11:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I would again like to remind people that the Wikibias website is the sum of the meatpuppetry I'm talking about. You can look at the website and comment on whether you believe the person running the site should be indefinitely blocked (even if you don't yet believe Eric is behind that). It is merely how I know it's him that I'm not publicly sharing, because it requires exposing personal information.

I would love to share the evidence with more people, but I don't want to step on ArbCom's toes. I've specifically asked them whether it is okay to send the evidence to any admin who wants it, but they have not responded yet. I'd prefer to wait until they do, and I hope they allow me to do so (or do so themselves), as it seems a large number of people are withholding judgment until they see it (even though I think Wikibias provides the basis behind the meatpuppetry I'm calling Eric out on). -- tariqabjotu 11:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I can share some of the content that is linked to Jiujitsguy, because it doesn't seem to show any personal information about him (the two other websites mention his real name). This comes from a website that I'm confident is owned by him. Once again, it's a guide to gaming the system. I'm confident he personally wrote it, considering it mirrors what was said in other articles clearly written by him (including one where he admits that he's Jiujitsguy on Misplaced Pages). -- tariqabjotu 11:33, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

There are three problems that I think people are clouding people's views of your actions. First of all, yes, that you are withholding much of the evidence under which have handed out a severe penalty from fellow admins, who are given the function under ARBPIA of reviewing an AE block. Second of all, the Wikibias blog, while containing criticisms of Misplaced Pages, is facially neutral when asking people to look at the discussion. What you are saying is that by putting this up there, he's hinting what he wants. Maybe so. Facially neutral semi-canvassing goes on all the time on wiki. People ask other people directly on here to comment on an issue. That's considered acceptable, because of the fact they aren't actually asking for support, although they are, by posting at a friendly wikiproject say, really hoping for it. Even if someone went too far with that, the result would be a note asking someone to be more cautious. Third, you handed out an indef block as an arb enforcement sanction, and when it was pointed out to you that wasn't allowed, you said, OK, one year is the arb sanction, the rest is on me. That seems very result oriented to me. It strikes me that a far more balanced approach would be a request to take down the offending material, assuming identity was satisfied (and as I haven't seen the evidence, I cannot say that it has been. Note I do not accuse Tariq of bad faith, I merely say he is capable of being wrong, and would more readily trust a checkuser on this), was a block until the offending material was taken down. After all, your instant-reaction sanction has done nothing to stop the evil complained of. The blog, after all, is still out there, and the editors can sneak back with new IPs and names. I would rather see the blog down, if it is such a problem.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Since you seem to think it's so difficult to comment on these websites without seeing the proof of who ever is behind them, I'm tempted to just give the information to you (along with Sandstein and the couple other admins who have requested it) -- I'm not the only one who has seen it, for sure -- but your attitude is extremely abrasive. You can't even recognize why I might to wait until hearing back from ArbCom, even though you yourself said earlier I should have doled it over to them in the first place? What are you suggesting? That I should leave to ArbCom... and also just you? And yes, my explanation for the indefinite block despite the one-year piece on the ArbCom ruling was result-oriented. Why does it matter what it's called, whether it falls within the scope of the ArbCom decision or not? People hand out indefinite blocks for any number of reasons. I am entitled to do so as well. And what does checkuser have anything to do with this? There have been no allegations of sockpuppetry. -- tariqabjotu 12:05, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Even if the apparent intention of Wikibias is to sway results to one side, doing that on a publicly available blog can hardly be called (as Sandstein does call it) "covert". Since those on both sides have read the blog, the accusation of "meatpuppet" seems absurd. Not only is the accusation unsupported, it is unsupportable. Wikibias is just a blog where someone discusses what he/she thinks is wrong with WP in general, and a few articles in particular.

In my view the administrators responsible for indeffing the user (assumed) responsible for the Wikibias blog, without supplying any evidence that WP rules have been violated, should be desysoped. In that I see rules have been violated. 173.52.134.182 (talk) 11:59, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

(to Tariq)Please feel free to do so, if you feel inclined. Possibly you should have followed one of the above procedures I suggested. Possibly, since there was importance, but not actual urgency in the matter, you should have communicated with ArbCom immediately and let them handle it. I am also struck by your comment here where you dwell on the difficulties of someone else undoing your AE block. I believe in fairness to everyone here, possibly I have been overfair from time to time. But what I see is an admin hand-selected by parties to an AE (Yes, I saw the initial skepticism you stated), that admin acting quickly to block two editors without giving them the chance to respond, despite ARBPIA, which urges admins using AE sanctions under ARBPIA to consult, use blocks as last resorts, etc. The "secret evidence" is an issue, as it makes it impossible for anyone else to review the justice of the block, including the question of identity. I continue to express no opinion on the whether the block was warranted. The procedure I strongly denounce.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I mean, look at it like this: If you had gotten the email, and been convinced by it, what harm would have been done by either asking the editors in question for their views or just asking for advice from ArbCom or a member thereof? What harm would have been caused by waiting? I will put it this way. People are sufficiently annoyed about the reports out of Israel, in my view, that if this had been handled well, there would not have been one word of dissent.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:33, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

( Housekeeping: My comment below is out of temporal sequence because I originally top-posted, recognized the error, and couldn't insert it back into strictly correct temporal sequence because doing so would have interrupted the continuity of a discussion re meaning and indenting. This was the end-of-thread location when I placed it here. But I've evidently disrupted the space-time continuum! Sorry! - OhioStandard )

I want to express my thanks for the blocks you've made. We need people editing here who are willing and able to subordinate their own political beliefs to the higher goal of working cooperatively and openly to create a great educational resource for the benefit of the entire world. Those who come here to champion any particular political agenda just subvert that goal, and that damage is multiplied by orders of magnitude when they do it in covert groups organized for the purpose. I have nothing but respect for your decision to defend the encyclopedia.  – OhioStandard (talk) 09:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Many editors view Misplaced Pages as a battleground. This is very clear to anyone who was closely involved in any articles on Israeli-Arab conflict. I think it is very important to view this indefinite block (the wiki capital punishment) in this context. There is a wide range of behaviours of these 'warring' editors, and these two editors have been punished because they have been caught in action which apparently violates WP polcies. So the editors on the other side (who actually exlosed this behaviour) can claim temporary victory. It is possible that Tariq's actions have been technically correct and made in good faith. However they do ignore this wider picture of the battleground. I also recognise that Tariq is not some kind of god who can solve a fundamental problem of Misplaced Pages. But he needs to think if his actions are in the broader interests of Misplaced Pages. Just like in criminal law in many cases charges are only laid if it is 'in the public interest', even if the particular action is technically illegal. I also think the lack of consultation BEFORE the indefinite block is very surprsing and will inevitably be viewed as suspicious. Sincerely. - BorisG (talk) 12:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I have now briefly reviewed the evidence, sent to me by Tariqabjotu. The evidence identifying Eric1985 (talk · contribs) as the author of http://wikibias.com is convincing and, in my opinion, sufficient to support the indefinite block. On the other hand, I am not absolutely certain that the evidence linking Jiujitsuguy (talk · contribs) to various offwiki publications is compelling enough, and/or these offwiki publications problematic enough, to warrant an immediate indefinite block. While the evidence is substantial, and the offwiki publications are clearly of the "go forth and edit Misplaced Pages from a pro-Israel POV" sort, I am not sure that the border separating mere offwiki advocacy and exhortation from active offwiki coordination and meatpuppetry has been crossed. This would probably benefit from a more thorough discussion. The block may still be justifiable, but the situation is not entirely clear-cut and, as such, I think that a more thorough review of the case by the Arbitration Committee would be helpful.  Sandstein  13:30, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I've also seen the evidence and agree with Sandstein's take. I still think we need to go to Arbcom for some clarification on how to act on it though. --WGFinley (talk) 17:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I note that User:Shuki has removed the block notices from both user's pages, claiming that Tariq has no authority to issue such blocks. I have asked them what they're playing at (though having the indefblock tag on the userpage is fairly trivial in itself). Black Kite (t) (c) 15:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I imagine it comes from my past involvement in the Israel-Palestine area (e.g. Israel and Jerusalem), but this has long been ignored by them, and basically everyone else in this area, until they don't like the action. Then they bring it up. I don't care about the talk page notices, so this angle of disputing the block. The block ought to be discussed on its own merits. -- tariqabjotu 18:25, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

After much digging, and without access to any evidence other editors may have collected, I was able to independently discover who Jiujitsuguy is. I've read the off-wiki material they've written, and while it's highly critical of Misplaced Pages, and extremely biased, I didn't see anything that warranted an indefinite block. Unless other editors found something more damning that the materials I myself did, I don't think anything harsher than an indefinite topic ban (on topics related to the Israel-Arab conflict) is called for. ← George 16:39, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Both blocks should be reverted. There was no urgency in blocking two users by an involved administrator. --Broccoli (talk) 16:48, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

You need to re-read what involved means, none of your diffs constitute involvement. --WGFinley (talk) 17:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Of course all the differences I provided clearly demonstrate the involvement of the administrator in content disputes. He didn't revert vandalism. He reverted the edits and in the process changed the content of the articles in the area of the conflict. Broccoli (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you saying that he shouldn't have reverted this? I think you have only skimmed the revision without looking at it closely at all. un☯mi 18:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Right, and the first edit was followed by this one. The third -- frankly, I don't even recall performing that edit -- but I'm confident it stems from the deficiencies of the pending revision system (is someone not approving an edit engaging in a content dispute?). Notice how I didn't follow up on any of the reverts you mention -- because I don't care about them. -- tariqabjotu 18:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I've now spent almost two hours reviewing the three edits that tariqabjotu reverted, including following and reading all the refs that they introduced. Here's what I found about the three:

(1) Made by an obvious sock with only two edits in his history. First two changes it included contradicted the sources they ostensibly were based on. Third change was nowhere supported or even mentioned in the source. Fourth and fifth change were original research based on the editor's interpretation of the Law of the Sea. The sixth change introduced a section entitled "Israel's Stand" (sic.). That short section had some potential in that it cited a ref to a French news site that gave an account of the Israeli Prime Minister's statements to an Israeli commission formed to investigate the boarding of the Gaza aid ship. But its first sentence was garbled, the vertical spacing was off, and the section also was surrounded by original research. Further, the editor misrepresented the French article's title in filling out the "cite news" details in such a way as to give a false impression. The seventh change introduced a new section about rockets fired into Israel. That content could be useful elsewhere, but it was entirely out-of-place to introduce it into this Gaza flotilla article.

(2) Pure racist vandalism. Anti-semitic crap calling Israelis "pigs", etc.

(3) Consisted of four simple factual errors introduced by an account with just two edits.

@Broccoli: did you mean to suggest that tariqabjotu is "involved" in a biased or negative way? If so, the three reverts you cite demonstrate precisely the opposite. They show a diligent editor just doing his job. Any responsible, neutral editor would have done exactly the same thing with these three edits. Disagree with him if you like, by all means, but you owe him an apology for introducing these three reverts as evidence of any improper motives or involvment.  – OhioStandard (talk) 19:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

( Please note that by "you", below, Broccoli is referring to tariqabjotu.  – OhioStandard (talk) )

Well the differences speak for themselves. One will never find something like that by Sandstien for example. The fact you did not follow up on your reverts does not really matter. You are involved in editing the articles and you should not have blocked two users. There was no immediate threat to Misplaced Pages by any of them. The blocks should be lifted.-Broccoli (talk) 02:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Broccoli, I might feel the same way you seem to if I were in your shoes; I probably would, actually. I'm sorry that your people have been through such intense suffering in the past, and that Israel has enemies all around. I mean that. But not everyone who disagrees with you here is your enemy, and I'm afraid your feeling of being attacked has blinded you a bit to that. That's understandable, but please look more carefully at the three edits that Tariqabjotu reverted. I spent almost two hours reviewing them; it wouldn't hurt you to spend half that long yourself. The diffs do speak for themselves, but only if you'll actually read them, and compare them to the sources they cite. For example, Tariqabjotu was defending Israel from a racist attack in the second revert: How can you possibly object to that? He's earned your thanks for that one, at least, not your scorn. If you'll carefully review the other two edits he reverted, made by socks, btw, and read all the sources the first one relies on, I trust you'll come to a better opinion of his reverts. I hope you can accept this recommendation in the spirit it's offered, but you really do need to take a closer look at the three. This isn't the place for content disputes, but if you'd like help putting back what's legitimately admissable in the first revert, let me know on my talk page. I'd be glad to help. Best,  – OhioStandard (talk) 07:10, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Application of EEML

Per another editor's suggestion I went and looked at the more recent EEML case and it has the following: (bolds are mine)

Off-wiki conduct

11) A user's conduct outside of Misplaced Pages, including participation in websites or mailing lists in which Misplaced Pages or its contributors are discussed, is generally not subject to Misplaced Pages policies or sanctions, except in extraordinary circumstances such as those involving grave acts of overt and persistent harassment or threats or other serious misconduct. The factors to be evaluated in deciding whether off-wiki conduct may be sanctioned on-wiki include whether the off-wiki conduct was intended to, and did, have a direct and foreseeable damaging effect on the encyclopedia or on members of the community.

Passed 8 to 0 with 1 abstention at 17:29, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Having reviewed the evidence I'm not sure if the action of either of the editors meets the level of the bans imposed because I'm not certain we've established a "direct and foreseeable damaging effect on the encyclopedia or on members of the community." Thoughts? --WGFinley (talk) 17:34, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

From what has been made public, I agree, and would unblock, my opinion subject to what is disclosed down the line. I believe ArbComm's language to mean conduct that almost rises to abetting harrassment, such as posting sensitive personal information, such as their phone number. At worst, this was hoping his readers would help him out. He could have tossed a message in a bottle with about equal effect.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

If the Wikibias website is indeed the work of Eric1985 (and it appears that it is) then an indefinite block is absolutely correct. Having not seen the evidence on Jiujitsuguy, then I cannot make a judgement on them. Black Kite (t) (c) 17:55, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Grave acts of overt and persistent harassment... -- No, I don't think so. But direct and foreseeable damaging effect on the encyclopedia -- I certainly think in the case of WikiBias, that is the case, unless the ruling is saying that the conduct must have both the intended effect and the actual effect (as the former exists, while the latter does not necessarily). Regarding the websites pertaining to Jiujitsuguy, it is less so the case; it was less systematic. In Jiujitsuguy's case, though, his past conduct on Misplaced Pages did come to mind when blocking him. -- tariqabjotu 17:59, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the Wikibias website constitutes, or describes, the sort of serious misconduct the EEML decision outlines. Whether this is also the case with Jiujitsuguy is considerably less clear to me. This requires closer review, which ArbCom is best qualified to do (either sua sponte or on appeal).  Sandstein  19:44, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

A "direct and foreseeable damaging effect on the encyclopedia" is relevant for what Eric did. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:47, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

In what way?--Wehwalt (talk) 17:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Reading the Wikibias website should answer that question very simply. Linking to discussion pages and suggesting that people chime in there (i.e. canvassing); repeatedly referring to other editors (and naming them) as anti-Semites and racists; a "how-to" guide on how to appear to be a "good Wikipedian" by inflating your edit-count in non-controversial area before hitting the IP articles; "It is possible to fight and win edit wars."... Black Kite (t) (c) 18:08, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I think the worst post from Wikibias is his first one, that's clearly out of line, no doubt. The one you cited about becoming a "good Wikipedian" has things about what edit warring is, explaining revert rules, a lot of it I actually would like to see among many of the participants in these articles! There's issues there, no doubt, but are they indefinite ban issues for off-wiki activity? I don't know about that and it's probably why we need to strongly consider how off-wiki content is handled in these types of instances. --WGFinley (talk) 18:14, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I certainly don't think it was worth an immediate indefinite block under AE provisions (modified when it was pointed out the admin had erred, but emphatically retaining the AE provisions), with no opportunity for defense. After all, where was the fire?--Wehwalt (talk) 18:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd disagree on that. Indef doesn't mean infinite. My take on it is that he's only explaining those things to people so that they don't get blocked. I can imagine that new IP editors with a particular POV might get blocked very quickly if they weren't cautioned how not to behave. If you're recruiting people with a certain POV into an already controversial area on Misplaced Pages, and then telling them how to game the system, I don't think we need editors like that. Black Kite (t) (c) 18:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Similarly, blocks are not irreversible. Admins come here all the time asking for reviews of their blocks. Sometimes they're approved, sometimes they're not (and then they're reversed). The same exists here. If there is consensus that the block of either or the both of them was not appropriate, it'll be reversed or shortened. Calm down. I understand you're big on this process thing, but I don't think you're adding to the conversation by harping on certain points over and over. -- tariqabjotu 18:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Wehwalt, "In what way?" how many times do I have to bring this up? What Blackkite said above, his "how to guide" which is really a guide for gaming the system, all the canvassing posts and: "So, I have started this blog to publish the often hidden problems of the world’s free online encyclopedia. I plan to work with other Wiki editors on this site, and we must be totally anonymous in order to keep our accounts on the site." At WP Israel: "Occassionally, I send people here to help with the efforts." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Most of it is facially neutral, good advice for getting along on WP, as has been pointed out by several editors. The fact that you had to characterize it as a "guide for gaming the system" means that there should have been the opportunity to defend, rather than a block out of the blue.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

How come you don't comment on the two quotes above where he straight out says that he is meatpuppeting? In his "guide" he has a plan for the editors on his side, and its obvious who his side is by reading all the canvassing posts in that blog and texts in that "guide": "So you want to become a Misplaced Pages editor and join the fight for truth and fairness? Excellent, we are looking for a few good men (and some great women)"...."Some anti-Israel editors will start an edit war with a pro-Israel user with the intention of making the pro-Israel editor so angry that he will do something stupid and get himself banned"..."There are roving gangs of anti-Israel editors looking to pick a fight.".... So we know now that he wants to recruit editors to edit articles in a pro-Israeli way, and then he gives them advise on how to at the beginning appear to be normal editors who later on in they're Misplaced Pages careers just stumbled upon some Arab-Israeli articles. The sole intent by this is to build up a false image for these new pro-Israeli editors when they're real goal from the very beginning is to embark on the Arab-Israeli articles pushing a pro-Israeli view. "Sooner or later you will notice that something that you regard as a simple fact, like the fact that Mt. Hermon is located in Israel, will be deleted by an editor who doesn’t agree with your worldview." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Question, have you read through all of the posts on wikibias.com? un☯mi 18:34, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Are there more that have not been linked to?--Wehwalt (talk) 18:36, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

By my count there are 14 blog posts there, perhaps you would care to review them so we can move beyond "facially". un☯mi 18:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Personally I think we should simply leave it to arbcom to decide at this point, but as you are obviously keen to continue discussing it then perhaps it would best to do so after being able to commit to having read through the whole site, 14 posts aren't that many. This would hopefully work towards a better heat / light ratio. un☯mi 18:55, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Will you help me with any big words? Why don't we make an agreement to agree on the waiting for Arbcom bit and agree to slowly put down the sarcasm and back away? I will if you will.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:59, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Deal :) un☯mi 19:02, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

What is the role of WP:COI in all of this ? It says "A Misplaced Pages conflict of interest (COI) is an incompatibility between the aim of Misplaced Pages, which is to produce a neutral, reliably sourced encyclopedia, and the aims of an individual editor. COI editing involves contributing to Misplaced Pages in order to promote your own interests or those of other individuals, companies, or groups. Where advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Misplaced Pages, that editor stands in a conflict of interest." The statement is crystal clear and yet it isn't a policy, it apparently doesn't have any teeth and it's ignored in the I-P conflict area where many editors have a transparent conflict of interest and either no interest in policy compliance or no real understanding of what that means in terms of content decisions. If editors complied with WP:COI and admins were able to sanction editors for failing to comply with it we wouldn't have this mess. We can argue about details and nuances of policy and how they apply to these cases but a good start would be for Misplaced Pages to take conflict of interest seriously and act upon it. Tariq's actions are consistent with the kind of Misplaced Pages that takes COI seriously. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:59, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

According to WP:COI, "if you edit articles while involved with organizations that engage in advocacy in area, you may have a conflict of interest." So I'd say that POV-pushing for purely personal ideological reasons does not constitute a COI. COI only exists if one is also personally involved with an advocacy organization, but in practice I think the point is not very relevant: POV-pushing, especially of the organized sort, is bad no matter whether a COI is also involved.  Sandstein  19:39, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikiprojects exist that refer users to problematic articles. Editors can post articles they feel have issues, including bias. The fact that the website may have been pro-Israel doesn't matter. Editors are allowed to advertise their opinion on their userpage, including boxes that say they support the actions of Hezbollah, Al-qaeda in Iraq, Hamas (excuse me, right to "resist"). Editors can also announce their status as a hard-core Zionist and makes no differentiation between antisemitic and anti-Zionism. These editors can still edit articles, as long as they don't violate rules. Until there is evidence that edits are being made by behind-the-scenes groups with real wikipedia editors, collaborating as a unit and design strategies on how to violate the rules without breaking them, rather than explaining the rules and say don't break them - which is what the guide ultimately says - I don't see grounds for an indefinite block. I also have issues when editors are banned for alleged-actions offline or on actions made on other websites. Admins have jurisiction on wikipedia, they shouldn't take it upon themselves to battle other editors off-line without a serious discussion here or with other admins. Unilateral blocks like this should also be treated like a grain of salt.

On another note, I've witnessed plenty disputes that start from 2 or 3 involved editors trying to gain a consensus, and then a day later 20 editors with no involvement in the article show up to support their buddies. This is a real problem that should be stopped. I think this scandal has been turned into a lightening rod to distract from the real issues on wikipedia. I personally don't feel victim to an Israeli conspiracy. Many editors, who will remain name-less, have a vested interest in banning users they don't like for ideological differences. We all know this happens so let's not kid ourselves.Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah yes, the good old anti-Zionism = anti-semitism and 'they support the terrists!' canards. I was wondering when somebody was going to pull those out. --Andrensath (talk | contribs) 00:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, according to Martin Luther King, Jr. "Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism". Martin Luther King repeated the same thought at least one more time Martin Luther King responded to a black student who harshly criticized Zionists "Don't talk like that! When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism."--Broccoli (talk) 12:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Have you or are you going to apologize to Tariq over your misunderstanding regarding the reversions? By the way the MLK quotes are regarded to be a hoax see here. un☯mi 14:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Only by some. Whether King actually said it is still open to debate, I beleieve. See Anti-Zionism#Anti-Zionism_and_antisemitism. -- Avi (talk) 06:19, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I never said that. Editors can openly advertise their political agenda on their own userpage. You have this userbox on your page:

This user recognizes the right of Iraqis to resist occupation.

.

RolandR makes no differentiation between Zionists and Nazis on his own page.

Of course I distinguish between Zionists and Nazis. It is an unwarranted smear to insinuate otherwise, and I request that you strike out this comment. RolandR (talk) 12:57, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

This user advertises his sympathies with Hezbollah. Does this mean they cannot edit articles even though they clearly have a POV that is obviously not neutral? No, of course not. Just like editors who openly profess their gushing, unconditional support and obsession with Israel are allowed to work on articles regardless of whether they are about Palestine or Israel. The fact that Wikibias is inherently pro-Israel does not necessarily mean it is criminal. what if wikibias had no political agenda, but still referred editors to problematic articles? I have a feeling users would be less blood-thirsty for bannishment. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:34, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

"Openly advertising" your political beliefs on your user page, is not the same as saying that you have a political agenda for editing Misplaced Pages. Wikibias, Yesha, et al. have specifically said that they want to inject their Zionist bias into Misplaced Pages (see , for instance). This is not the same as saying they are Zionists, but want to try to neutrally edit Misplaced Pages without a POV. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 04:17, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The issue is about wikibias, not some settler Zionist fringe organization. I don't see anyone saying they want to "inject their Zionist bias into wikipedia." That's just you talking, and that's biased. No evidence has been provided that any meatpuppetry going on. It looks like a pretty honest website directing anyone interest towards articles that are considered to be biased (hence, wikibias). I don't see a forum or a place where people can apply for membership. It doesn't look like an organized movement, other than the reference to "we need more people like you" but that's vague and shouldn't be interpreted by Israe/Palestine admins. My main beef is that an admin acted unilaterally beyond his jurisdiction. Misplaced Pages admins are not supposed to police the internet. Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:02, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

"No evidence has been provided that any meatpuppetry going on.".. Amazing how some people read only what suits them: --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:29, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I've just been reading through this thread and the sites in question. They are certainly disturbing, and certainly a matter for Arbcom. Blocking the accounts involved for admitted meatpuppetry is probably necessary to protect the project at this stage, although I do believe the final decision should be arbcom's. To Wehwalt (and anyone else who is concerned about the indefs), would you be satisfied with a reduced-length block that would nevertheless keep the accounts blocked until Arbcom could issue a ruling? It may be more semantic than anything, but at least it's not an indef handed out against an AE guideline. Throwaway85 (talk) 03:19, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Sure, were it understood that if Arbcom chooses not to take the case, any admin can unblock the usual way in his discretion. I suspect that the ominous silence we hear from Arbcom right now means something is up, but I'm fine with that. Say thirty days on each account, AN/I to consider a topic ban if Arbcom doesn't act?--Wehwalt (talk) 03:27, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I was going to suggest something very similar. I like that approach better than leaving the current indefs in place. The topic ban would undoubtedly be a necessary consideration should Arbcom decline to act. Throwaway85 (talk) 04:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I still believe, based on what I've been able to personally find from the person I believe to be Jiujitsuguy, that a topic ban would be more appropriate than an indefinite block. However, whoever the author of Wikibias is was clearly trying to organize a campaign to subvert Misplaced Pages's neutrality (per tariqabjotu's analysis above, at 11:46, 22 August 2010), and deserves a full an indefinite block. ← George 03:38, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that in Jiujitsuguy's case it isn't clear from the evidence and from what policies actually say right now that there has been a violation. Furthemore, the full story can't be obtained by simply looking at the evidence out there. Jiujitsuguy has his version and interpretation of events and that information does impact on what the evidence means and the conclusions that can be reliably drawn from it. There are already ambiguities here in terms of how policy applies based on the evidence but those ambiguities are magnified when you add in J's version of events. Now, I personally don't think J should be editing in the I-P conflict area because I consider his objectives to be in conflict with Misplaced Pages's but from his perspective his objectives are entirely consistent with Misplaced Pages's. Arbcom do need to look at this case because it's not straightforward. I can understand why Tariq would block J given the nature of the I-P conflict area here, the nature of the evidence and exisiting policy but there are lots of grey areas here. It would be better if there were simple bright line rules but there aren't. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:02, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I'll also add that while I personally favour the merciness crushing of persistent POV pushing beneath the full weight of an Israeli targeted killings-like approach to dealing with partisan editing here (and I applaud the recent efforts of both Tariq and WGFinley in acting to reduce conflict in several flashpoint articles by imposing editing restrictions quickly in response to trouble), the existing policies and sanctions don't really seem to support my views. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Is there a thought that we should see if there is consensus on Throwaway85's proposal?--Wehwalt (talk) 13:22, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't see the point. Keeping the current block in place, which can end at any point by nature of being indefinite, and then modifying it if there is consensus or ArbCom decision to do so, produces the same effect. -- tariqabjotu 13:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

If you are willing to drop the AE part of it and leave it as an indefinite block for violation of WP, that is not unreasonable. However, if you are insisting that your block is AE-related, then I think we should discuss whether to move ahead.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:09, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Fine. It really makes no difference to me. -- tariqabjotu 01:00, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. As far as I am concerned, I'm satisfied with that and the unblock. The indef block is within your discretion, and if someone else (I'm not doing it, in case you were wondering) wants to unblock, they can consult with you and move from there. As far as I'm concerned, we can put this one to bed.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:07, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

With respect to Jiujitsuguy there is a pattern of poor editing (By which I mean less than stellar in the I-P context) but not the sort of sustained aggressive POV editing that is required to support an indefinite block. I think Tariqabjotu's closing of the Arbitration Enforcement debate, which was quite inconclusive, and then adding on an indefinite block in addition to the permitted one year block was over-reaching. It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that he is very much an involved party and should never have closed the discussion or blocked anyone. Fred Talk 19:16, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

As someone who has followed Jiujitsuguy's edits from the start, I fully agree with Tariqabjotu's assessment of Jiujitsuguy. I know I speak for many fellow Misplaced Pages editors when I say that encounters with Jiujitsuguy has been very frustrating as Jiujitsuguy's editing patterns has been marked with aggressive POV-editing from the very start. Tariqabjotu has shown great integrity as an administrator and he should be applauded for that. --Frederico1234 (talk) 19:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

That, if true, would support the block, even a ban. I'll keep looking at his edits. Fred Talk 19:57, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

It could. However, we should deal with this block first, not look for alternative justifications, then consider what is to be done through the usual processes, if anything.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Fred, I did not close the AE debate; in fact, it's still open. Unless by "closed" you meant "blocked one of the editors in question for a charge completely unrelated to the one the initial report was about". Also, please check your e-mail; I sent you an e-mail more than twelve hours ago, which you have not yet responded to. Or at the very least, look at Jiujitsuguy's talk page.

Secondly, I'm really tired of this "I disagree with the block; therefore you are involved" conclusion. Aside from this being a non sequitur of epic proportions, I have not, insofar as I can remember, had any involvement or disputes with Jiujitsuguy. I would expect that kind of attempt to make things personal from one of the editors who has traditionally sided with Jiujitsuguy on content disputes, but I certainly didn't expect it from you (and, for the record, Jiujitsuguy's own responses to me on his talk page and via e-mail have been nothing but cordial, avoiding suggesting any personal reasons for the block). You are entitled to disagree with the block, but it's borderline insulting to see you join the attempts to divert attention away from the merits of the block and toward the merits of me. I can see reasons to oppose the block on its own merits; stick to talking about those. But regardless of whether the block is overturned, and it's increasingly looking like it will be (I offered to do so myself on Jiujitsuguy's talk page, pending your response to the e-mail I sent you twelve hours ago), this shouldn't come down to "oh, the fact that his action was disputed by the community indicates he has a bias in this area and should never involve himself in Israel-Palestine issues again". Really, Fred, I expect better from you. -- tariqabjotu 23:31, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

And, as a follow up, I have unblocked Jiujitsuguy. -- tariqabjotu 01:00, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Fred, I agree with Tariq, he's said nothing about closing the AE that I've seen and in fact I think he put this on AN/I in a good faith effort to have peer review of his action so I think you have misread something here. However, I think there is little to be gained from going on like this, we have the usual names on each side of the debate and a few people that are trying to give honest opinions but end up getting drowned out by the partisan sides. I started to work this up for an Arbcom amendment request and I think that's the route to go with this. --WGFinley (talk) 23:41, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Reasonable, I would say, do you think asking for a full case would be better?--Wehwalt (talk) 23:46, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Although I really loathe the drawn-out process of a whole ArbCom case, I have long argued that this area needs another ArbCom case. First, the conflicts on Israel-Palestine issues are pervasive and never-ending; the first case has done nothing, it seems, to put an end to them, although perhaps it's just a reality that there isn't a whole lot we can do. Many here, including myself, seem to agree there are a lot of editors who treat Israel-Palestine articles as battlegrounds (not to say all editors who edit in this area do). And it seems we're tacitly, if not explicitly, agreeing that we ought to tolerate it to some extent (what that extent is is a matter of debate). That we are agreeing to compromise on one of our five pillars (and a point that has repeatedly been upheld as a principle in ArbCom cases) is a point that should be addressed, in my opinion. -- tariqabjotu 00:07, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Would you be happy skipping Arbcom and simply starting an RfC/U in support of a topic ban? Alternatively, as the issue doesn't seem to be going anywhere, we could start an arbcom case asking for a ruling that *any* offsite canvassing/astroturfing/meatpuppetry of this nature is grounds for a topic ban, of a length to be determined on a case-by-case basis. Between Camera, this, the JIDF, DailyKos, and the inevitable future cases, we really have a pretty well-established pattern. If we can get a clear ruling so that each new case need not go through Arbcom, that would clear things up a bit.

As I have said, I'm personally content with the outcome, while not applauding the actions that were taken to get us to this point. If Eric asks for an unblock, that should be considered on its merits. After giving it some thought, if the only thing an Arbcom case gives us is a set of rules that both sides immediately start wikilawyering around, it's kinda pointless. Still, the question of offline conduct is going to be a continuous problem, if ArbCom can come up with a bright line test, it would be worth having.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:43, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

The fact that the Eric editor is an inactive as well as the jump to block, judge, jury, and executioner with no discussion from the accused shows the absurdity of tariqabjotu's actions. --Shuki (talk) 14:45, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to ask you to strike this statement, or reword it, to avoid being uncivil. This is not a trial, and no one has been "executed." — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:36, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Incivility / harassment by User:7mike5000

Hello. I've posted links and diffs regarding a problem between another user and myself on the Wikiquette alerts page, but nothing has come of it (See: Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette_alerts#Incivility_by_user_7mike5000). I've tried to determine what board is best to report this problem, but the chain of command isn't clear, so I'm posting here. Would an admin either direct me towards a functioning committee or group which covers this sort of thing or bring other users into handle this? Since I'm not sure this is the correct page, can someone else notify User:7mike5000 of this comment if it's appropriate to do so? Thanks. TeamZissou (talk) 02:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

He's been informed. - Donald Duck (talk) 02:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I've brought the diffs from WQA here and dropp them into the above archive box for ease. S.G. _ping! 08:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Although he is correct in his tagging of the articles (i.e. they do need references or whatever) that doesn't mean he is necessarily tagging them for the right reasons. I would say that mass removal of a section is a bit of a decisive application of WP:BRD and you might want to have tempered it a bit with discussion first, but the other user's comments are completely dickish. I draw attention to the initial response of "People like yourself crack me up, with your twisted logic and your rude mouth"; "Tell you what mouth, out of the millions of people who access Misplaced Pages the fact that you run into know it all, trouble makers like yourself is pretty much a given, it's like you people flock to Misplaced Pages, what is it not enough love from mommy?"; "Displaying bravado and wise comments are easy to do when you sit behind a computer screen. Nobody died and left you boss, and if you want to try and belittle somebody, try harder" and so forth. I am especially interested in why he signed himself "Saddhiyama" I'll ask User:Saddhiyama. --S.G. _ping! 09:08, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

In this thread on his/her talk page, I pointed out that trawling through another editor's history and tagging their stubs is combative - though in my case, most were justified. Having done it again to TeamZissou, let me just say explicitly 7mike5000, it's inappropriate.

In this thread I recommended 7mike5000 refrain from calling people names and instead "politely argue your case on its merits."

In this post on TeamZissou's talk page, 7mike5000 said, "I myself am going to control my temper. I can state my case in a rational manner without resorting to calling people J***-off"

7mike5000 has admitted here that "I have a tendency to lose my temper and respond with infantile vulgarity" and here that "I tend to overreact so I apologize."

So 7mike5000, you are aware there is an overreaction problem, and you want to modify that behaviour. Please do, because you have a lot to offer. Please thoroughly familiarise yourself with WP:AGF and don't rise to perceived bait. Polite argumentation wins the day. I also suspect you need a firmer grip on WP:NOR and WP:MEDRS. Following these as well as (given your comments about a tendency to overreact) WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL, should make your time spent here peaceful and productive. Anthony (talk) 09:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I made a good faith edit/addition to Smoking. It gets deleted without commentary by TeamZissou. I reverted and state just to use the edit summary. Deleting someones' edit without commentray is rude. He then deletes it again. And leaves this uninformed tirade;

think that there's some bias and misreporting going on here, in that smoking is far more common among people with mental heath issues ranging from depression to schizophrenia, but that the affects of tobacco smoking serves as a "band-aid" for the underlying issues. Also, this entire section was tobacco-centric, and we've gone rounds on this talkpage reminding contributers that there already exists a tobacco smoking article. Indeed, there's already a mental health section in the Health effects of tobacco article. Beginning a section with weasel words like "There is a proven correlation between cigarette smoking and depression," doesn't make for factual articles. The lay reader would interpret that in the same way a non-scientist would interpret a wording such as "Evolution is just a theory." The point I'm trying to make is that this is not the tobacco smoking article -- this article is on the practice, culture and history of smoking in general, and pamphleteering to persuade isn't the point of the Misplaced Pages project. 19:28, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Using comments like; there's some bias and misreporting going on here

and like this: and pamphleteering to persuade isn't the point of the Misplaced Pages project

is enough to gey anybody incensed. If that isn't condesceding, rude, impertinent and uncivil I don't know what is. The audacity to instigate an alteration, then receieve a like response to go complain and try to twist facts.

The fact is that he another user asked this individual to tone done his wise comments concerning others twice.

Complaing about this: I've just learned that User:7mike5000 has gone through and tagged or altered the following articles I've started, all of which are listed on my user page:

• Bulliform cell (changes here: )
• Plastic Utopia (changes here: )
• Geomys (changes here: )
• George IV Bridge (changes here: )
• Henry E. Dixey (changes here: )
• Norderoog (changes here: )

They were tagged with appropriate tags. To delete other people's edit and talk down to somebody, then preach what Misplaced Pages is or is not, and your own "contributions" fail to meet even the most basic tenets, such as a reference. I failed to notice where it states anywhere, that you can't place an APPROPRIATE tag on somebodies article if there has been some disagreement.

This comment:Thank you for the condescending answer. So I take it that means you have nothing to back up your claim with. --Saddhiyama (talk) 19:05, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

7mike5000 (talk) 20:36, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

The edit history doesn't reveal a user Saddhiyama making any changes -- I'm not sure why this is there, unless it was a botched attempt at sockpuppetry, which is something 7mike5000 has gotten into trouble for in the past, as I will show later. The only wiki-anything user named Saddhiyama I could find was this page (Saddhiyama), and it seems they contribute mainly to the Danish project. I have not contacted this user.

--Saddhiyama (talk) 19:05, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 

7mike5000 (talk) 20:36, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Its from TeamZissou contributions page, its kind of funny because now its not there, that's convenient, is it possible for someone to alter or delete user contributions from their history? Of course it is, if you know an administrator or are one. There was a problem with a pictures uploaded at Wikimedia, an adminstrator in Germany fixed the issue, and cleared up the upload summary. So that's what happened here. That's a little disurbing to go through that effort. Forgot to take care of this though:

19:12, 9 April 2009 (diff | hist) User talk:TeamZissou ‎ (→Question about my history: oh you silly goose) 19:09, 9 April 2009 (diff | hist) User talk:Saddhiyama ‎ (→Re: Question about my history) 19:06, 9 April 2009 (diff | hist) Talk:Enlightened absolutism ‎ (→Benevolent dictatorship: some people just like to cause problems.) and this: I would have preferred not to be dragged into that conflict, for my part any disagreement I might have had with TeamZissou is a closed chapter. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Intitiating rude behavior this is all from his contributions page, cur | prev) 20:07, 7 May 2010 TeamZissou (talk | contribs) (9,574 bytes) (added photo (again) -- it was removed by some zealot with a vague comment about it being (""out of context""). Hopefully that user is no longer active, and this useful image remains this time.) (undo and this one 19:46, 2 September 2009 (diff | hist) History of Icelandic ‎ (I came here looking for sources, and found not one.) 23:11, 19 July 2009 (diff | hist) List of punk films ‎ (→U: not even a hint of tangibly relating to anything punk, either in the film or in any element of culture inspired by it) 06:19, 17 July 2009 (diff | hist) Meadow jumping mouse ‎ (Removed poorly written, unsourced material. Ref to Smith was a little distorted -- Good idea for a section, but a very bad section without better language and accurately cited statements.) 18:44, 9 May 2010 (diff | hist) Scythians ‎ (Undid revision 361068696 by Gabhala (talk) The pro-Iran rewriting is annoying. Undid revision--look @ previous page edits.)

Someone who has a history of initiating altercations with rude comments, deleting the contributions of others and is obvioulsly on an infantile vendetta.

A simple comment in the edit summary on his part would have avoided the issue, to follow it up with rudeness and condescension just escalated it. To go out of his way to alter or ask somebody to alter his user contributiion log, is, and there is no euphemistic way of putting disturbing. 7mike5000 (talk) 19:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

And yet you were quite uncivil yourself. S.G. _ping! 20:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I specifically said in the original revert AND the second revert that the complete edit summary was on the talk page of the smoking article, and that I not only included the entire section but also outlined what I found wrong with it's content and placement. How long are you (7mike5000) going to continue this? Pointing out another example of my bad behavior in the past isn't helpful. Just drop it, and know that I'll be surveying my watchlist everyday for when you nominate my articles for deletion. Saddhiyama is right in that whatever we were arguing about IS a closed chapter, but it seems prudent that I have to now watch closely for nitpicking and juvenile retribution -- no, that's not meant to be insulting, rather it's descriptive. There's no other reason for doing what you've been doing than bullying. I don't want to be back here in a month when you start nominating articles I've started for deletion or moves simply to feed your issues. Also, stop trying to bait me into a bitching fest -- dealing with internet tough guys is wearisome. It's working, but if that's your agenda, stop. If not, what gives? TeamZissou (talk) 02:13, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I type one finger at at a time so it's getting a bit annoying now. The succinct version:

• YOU initiated a confrontation with somebody else by arbitrarily deleting a well referenced appropriate contribution in an appropriate section.*
• In response to being asked to use the edit summary, you leave a condescending and insulting reply in the Smoking talk page.
• Considering that this is an administrator complaint board and I'm being called a "dick" "but the other user's comments are completely dickish". Anything I have said doesn't seem so egregious.
• You brought attention to yourself and to articles you "created". The fact is a majority of them are woefully inadequate, and that you are content to leave them like that, so I placed appropriate tags on them.
• This:I have to now watch closely for nitpicking and juvenile retribution -- no, that's not meant to be insulting, rather it's descriptive. There's no other reason for doing what you've been doing than bullying. I don't want to be back here in a month when you start nominating articles I've started for deletion or moves simply to feed your issues. Also, stop trying to bait me into a bitching fest -- dealing with internet tough guys is wearisome. It's working, but if that's your agenda, stop. If not, what gives? TeamZissou (talk) 02:13, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
• IS FROM WAY OUT IN LEFT FIELD, if you you are not capable or are too lazy to create an appropriate article, that's your personal problem not mine, I merely place the right tags on them.
• Placing this on the "article" Sherman Trap shows your maturity. Thats not the way you reference something:
  • Numerous scholarly articles
  • Numerous academic texts concerning small mammals and ecological surveys
• Placing this on the Talk page of Sherman Trap ; again shows your maturity.
• "stop trying to bait me into a bitching fest -- dealing with internet tough guys is wearisome"

not for nothing that is pretty wacky comment considering you seem hell-bent on creating an issue in the first place and then perpetuating it with this bogus complaint. It seems you thrive on a being part of a "bitching fest"

• Dealing with people like yourself is getting " wearisome" to me. You detract from Misplaced Pages by initiating anomosity, and when you can't deal with what you dish out, complaining about it.
• I don't appreciate being slandered and maligned on the internet, unlike yourself Mike is my real name, it doesn't take to much effort to see that I don't look like Mister Bean, because my picture is on the Internet. And trying to make me look like a jerk-off is getting "tiresome". My nature and my character are self evident by what I write and what I have contributed to.. So enough already, I have things to take care off, and wasting time with an adolescent on a vendetta isn't part of it. I have no intention of doing or saying anything else in regards to this nonsense. If others feel this B.S. warrants otherwise, your prerogative, do what you got to do. I won't be responding for quite a while because I wont be on Misplaced Pages or the internet in general.7mike5000 (talk) 19:25, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Half of your justifications for your actions comes from completely unrelated material I was involved with a while ago. You're not being slandered or maligned, but you are doing quite a bit of that yourself. The original and only problem you've ever had with me that's anchored in something directly related to you was my revert of your edits to the smoking article. You accused me or removing your text without explanation, which was false. You went out of your way to insult me instead of discussing the problem or recognizing that there was a perfectly good spot for your content on the appropriate page. You then came to my talk page and continued insults as well as pointing out everything you could find disagreeable about my history on Misplaced Pages -- in no way relevent to your problem with my revert, which could simply be overcome by placing your contribution on another page. You've focused on my character over and over without discussing the actual problem, merely to emphasize a personal attack on me, rather than move or fix your contribution. You've invoked the same rhetoric and played the same baiting games this whole time, and a copy of your content still sits on the smoking talk page waiting to be amended and/or moved by discussion of its merits and proper article place. If you're afraid of people thinking poorly of you in real life, Mike, then don't act like you have here in real life and hope others won't act that way either. Because, if this were real life I'd be like the neighbor who told you that you couldn't park your car on the boulevard, and you'd be the neighbor who yells at me over the fence, throws my newspaper away, and then addresses the city council on the finer points of how I haven't shoveled or cut my grass by the rules every time. How could I not view this as "wearisome"? And, using your own words written just above, who is the one making you look like a jerk-off? PUT THE SECTION YOU WANTED ON THE GENERAL SMOKING ARTICLE -- THE LENGTHY, IN-DEPTH AND WELL-CITED ONE ON HOW TOBACCO SMOKING CAUSES SUICIDE AND TOBACCO SMOKING CAUSES DEPRESSION -- OVER ON Health effects of tobacco, IT'S NOT THAT HARD, AND STOP ACTING LIKE A WP:DICK ABOUT IT. TeamZissou (talk) 19:56, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Awesome, "IT'S NOT THAT HARD, AND STOP ACTING LIKE A WP:DICK ABOUT IT." I sincerely do appreciate the advice and since were pals now, I have a few helpful pointers, if you need help on writing articles, expanding them beyond a sentence or two, or the finer points of adding a reference I think you can find help here: WP:Mentor or here: Misplaced Pages:Adopt-a-User, I found this to be helpful as well Misplaced Pages:Your first article. I feel so much better now that we are giving each other useful advice, maybe we can exchange recipes some day, or go get our nails done together or even do each others hair. I've been to South Dakota, I was at Pine Ridge and Rosebud, maybe we can hang out together someday and sing Kumbaya, or any song you like, I think that would be groovy. Have an excellent day TeamZissou, your a real swell pal. 7mike5000 (talk) 22:19, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The best thing that's coming out of this is that every single comment you make will make it all the easier to have an admin ban you the next time an editor does something you don't like and you feel compelled to spend the better part of a week being an internet tough guy. TeamZissou (talk) 02:50, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Yelling at people in caps and calling them names isn't going to win you any sympathy from admins.— Dædαlus 09:07, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

After reading through everything 7mike5000 has said, how he has said it, and in consideration of why he has said it, how would you respond? It makes me angry that after making a legitimate edit and criticism about text placement, all I've received is a stream of insults and jeers irrelevant to the origin of the dispute, which (as far as I know) still hasn't simply been placed on it's appropriate page. And, I think the tactic here by Mike is to draw this out as long as possible until the original problem is obscured and the argument comes down to who's doing more of the insulting, which is precisely why I'm claiming that he's baiting me. Ignoring the problem will not make it go away -- if he's continued to pursue this as roughly and tenaciously as he has over something he could have simply taken care of by three mouse clicks, I have little faith that he'll stop here and continue to target my edits and contributions for no other reason than spite. Because of this, I encourage anyone who comments on this issue to review the problem and the exchanges starting as the very beginning -- the evidence will speak for itself. One editor reverted an edit in good faith and reason, and another decided to take it personally and spend their time spitefully harrassing and taunting that editor. The issue here is will this stop, and if not what are the solutions? Given the length of time and the depth of retribution over reverting one chunk of text in good faith, it isn't unreasonable to expect further harassment in the future, and so what solutions can be considered there? I posted to the admin board seeking such solutions, and the old "don't say anything" doesn't appear to be a good one. I've personally been banned from editing for half an amount of hot-headedness as what Mike's done. Returning to the possibility that I've not seen the end of his disproportionate animosity, this record in the very least provides a foothold to address future attacks. 7mike5000 has clearly been wikihounding me, and I've asked the admin community to review the situation and offer guidance regarding Misplaced Pages:Harassment#Consequences_of_harassment. My only other option is to go to Misplaced Pages:Admins_willing_to_make_difficult_blocks, but jumping on that option isn't very Wikipedian. Other than "ignore him", input? TeamZissou (talk) 11:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) 7Mike5000, has been causing problems elsewhere, including repeated unprovoked abuse on the ADHD talk page to Doc James and other editors, see this for example,Talk:Attention-deficit_hyperactivity_disorder/Archive_19#Congratulations and only a week or so ago he injected himself into a dispute which had nothing to do with him on Tom Cloyd's talk page where he character assassinated SandyGeorgia and he has now likely escalated a dispute between Sandy and Tom out of all proportion which I was hoping to try to resolve.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 13:26, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I have notified both Doc James and SandyGeorgia of this discussion incase they want to contribute their thoughts on these issues with 7Mike5000.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 13:32, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification; I agree with LG's and AnthonyCole's characterizations of 7Mike5000's problematic edits and behavior. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:41, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Definitely Mike needs to be more open to feedback. I concur with LG and Anthony.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

WP:BACKLOG is backlogged

I only wish I was being funny. We have images in Category:User-created public domain images that have been in backlog since 2002. Articles in Category:Articles needing additional references are dating back to 2006. Same with about 4 other categories. So, could a group of people (admins too) take a look WP:BACKLOG and see if we could knock some of this mess out, please? Thanks. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 04:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, that is pretty funny. 69.181.249.92 (talk) 06:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Damn. That page is depressing. I'll see what I can do, but... Damn. Throwaway85 (talk) 07:02, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Ugh. 26,421 unsourced BLPs. If an admin is feeling particularly bold and wants to delete the lot of them, I'll write a bot for it. Half-joking. Throwaway85 (talk) 07:11, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure you want to open that can of worms again? Personally, I'd like to see something akin to Misplaced Pages:Proposed deletion of biographies of living people instituted for ALL new articles. That, and some diligence to the backlog, should have things cleared up in, oh, five years or so. 69.181.249.92 (talk) 07:37, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

That works great for new BLPs, does nothing about the 26k existing. I'm actually more in favour of someone deleting all of them during quiet hours and seeing if anyone notices/cares enough to go through and restore them. Permanent solution. But no, I really don't want to open that can of worms, particularly here. Throwaway85 (talk) 07:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I think it was that kind of tactic that eventually led to the PRODBLP policy in the first place. Mass deletions, or at least mass tagging, started the whole ruckus. 69.181.249.92 (talk) 08:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

That's the beauty of my method. Take em out in one fell swoop. Rather than bickering, anyone who restored them would have to admit that they are worth having, and I don't see many admins making that admission. It'd also probably get admin desysoping pushed through as well. Hell of a way to go out. Anyway, on to the actual topic of this thread, what are some of the categories where my help would be most meaningful and appreciated, without sapping my will to live? Throwaway85 (talk) 08:39, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

And they'd have to provide sources since the burden would then be upon them. Brilliant, if a bit Machiavellian. 69.181.249.92 (talk) 09:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

You obviously didn't see the mess last time someone tried that. Mass-delete went to mass-reinstatement, which led to wailing and gnashing of teeth. Wouldn't be any better a second time around. — The Hand That Feeds You: 13:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

It seems we have an alarming 311,000 articles with no sources, out of our 6,451,621 articles. One tenth of our articles have no sources. After I read Neutral Homer's post last night I added coordinates to eight articles; that took 30 minutes (there are 180,000 articles tagged as having no coordinates, so at this rate I will be done, uh, never). I am always puzzled when people argue for retaining poor articles when we don't have time to look after the stuff we've already got. Here is something positive people can do: The WP:GOCE has been hard at work on our backlog of copy edit requests and we have reduced it from over 8000 articles at Chrismastime to 6300 today. Another backlog elimination drive starts September 1. Feel free to sign up. --Diannaa 16:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't know we had backlog elim. drives, my goof. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 23:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The public domain images aren't actually from 2002. That was caused by a SmackBot date tagging error. I've been trying to help deal with that backlog by tagging them with the correct date. It doesn't really help clear the backlog, but I like to think that it's at least somewhat helpful in identifying which images really are the oldest and should be dealt with first. Reach Out to the Truth 23:12, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I proposed a setup for prods on any unsourced article a while back, but it never did get off the ground. Really too bad, it could certainly cut down the number of unsourced articles we've got. BLPPROD is a step in the right direction, but we really ought to require sources for every article, first edit onward. Seraphimblade 00:34, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

That was over three years ago. Time to try again? 69.181.249.92 (talk) 01:03, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the first two BLPs I picked were easy to reference. Also some articles have had refs added, but the refimprove tag hasn't been removed.Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:32, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

User:Doncram at List of Masonic buildings

User:Doncram is becoming increasingly disruptive at List of Masonic buildings. Since he started editing the page he has demonstrated increasing lack of good faith... especially towards me. He consistently demonstrates WP:OWNership of the article, and has a strong case of WP:IDIDNTHERETHAT. Multiple editors are telling him the same thing... The article continues to have serious OR and sourcing problems... but his response is to stonewall, ignore, change the subject, and blame the messenger. His repeated removal of issue tags (specifically a {{refimprove}} and {{Original research}} tag, without any effort to address the issues is the last straw for me... rather than continue to edit war (both of us have been guilty of that), I am seeking assistance. Blueboar (talk) 15:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

This is approximately #84 in a series of discussion sections opened by Blueboar, regarding the List of Masonic buildings article and related others, including at their Talk pages, at ANI, at various Wikiprojects, etc. I have participated reluctantly in many of the discussions, responding to the consistent demonstration of WP:OWNership and WP:IDIDNTHERETHAT in one or two other editors' comments. At the talk page and in the article, the current effort by Blueboar seems to be to question by tags whether there are any buildings in the world that have Masonic association, and whether any of them are listed in that list-article. I have explained why I was removing the tags in the Talk page discussion. I'll watch here too, but can't participate a lot today. Thanks. --doncram (talk) 15:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I left some comments on the talk page and made some article improvements. I think the article does need work - but seems mostly a content dispute that is better solved with a WP:RFC or on one of the content dispute noticeboards (maybe WP:RS/N) before coming to AN/I :) --Errant Tmorton166 15:54, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

This has now gone on for some significant time, and I would support the suggestion that Doncram is refusing to engage with any discussion about inclusion criteria.

I've now explicitly asked him three times in the last few days what obvious actually means in evidence terms. This is a behaviour issue, Doncram has been called on his personal comments a number of times, but there is no evidence of Good Faith given that he's ignoring any objections to his inclusions.

ALR (talk) 15:59, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I've shown plenty of Good Faith in efforts to engage with blueboar and other editors, inlcuiding trying to help them channel their interest into actually reading and using sources to add to wikipedia articles in mainspace. I can't keep responding indefinitely to the same complaints forever, however. Eventually i do question the other editors' interests in tagging and otherwise disrupting some sensible development going on. About the inclusion criteria, i pointed out early on that the general discussion was pretty useless until some more material was actually developed and the significance of various buildings became clear (as has been proceeding slowly by efforts of a couple editors including me). I believe that progress in their understanding has been made. For example I believe they are relenting in their wish to make the article a directory of current Masonic meetingplaces, knock on wood. And a big discussion about a useful reference has wound down. These topics are properly covered at the Talk page of the article. --doncram (talk) 16:22, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Have you given any though to why the same complaints keep getting raised over and over again? There are more ways to develop an article than just "adding" material. Defining the subject, removing material that is questionable, and requesting sources is article development. Blueboar (talk) 16:37, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

All I'm asking for is some form of clear statement of inclusion criteria. You keep saying that its obvious but you will not articulate what obvious means in real terms. Once we have some form of inclusion criteria then evidencing inclusion can be pretty straightforward.

What I do have an issue with is expecting that we can treat each entry as an independent entity and do enough Original Research to eventually conclude that entry can remain. That way we quite quickly end up with a list of items which have different inclusion criteria, so the value of the list itself is questionable.

If inclusion really is obvious then it should be pretty straightforward to articulate that. I've asked for that articulation a number of times now, and each time the question is just ignored and you continue trying to force entries in without any real clarity around why.

All I'm asking for is some clarity around why something should be included, what evidence do we expect to see.

ALR (talk) 17:30, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

What I am asking for is that you stop complaining about the number of times I and other editors have raised issues at the article, and start addressing the issues we have been raising. That you stop attacking the messenger when you don't like the message. That you stop assuming that every edit I make and every issue I raise on the talk page is focused on "killing" the article. That you stop removing tags that notify both readers and editors that there are problems with the page until you have shown a good faith effort to address the issue that cause the tag to be added there in the first place. Blueboar (talk) 17:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

If I may, what specific administrator action is required here? UltraExactZZ ~ Did 18:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The complaint is around the intentional and persistent removal of quality tags on the article, identifying the risk of Original Research and the lack of credible sourcing for the list rationale and the content. The further discussion is clearly demonstrates the need for those tags and some meaningful discussion around how to resolve the issues.

Whatever sanction appears reasonable given that behaviour would appear appropriate.

ALR (talk) 19:10, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the persistent removal of tags was simply the latest incident in a pattern of behavior. Whatever sanctions appear reasonable is fine with me. But I think a short block (say 24 hours) is called for to drive the point home. Blueboar (talk) 21:39, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. Who is this Doncram editor. From what i can see, this editor responded many times to unreasonable demands, patiently adding sources, developing articles, providing responses to endless complaints.

The cruel and unusual punishment most readily available is to torture him/her with endless discussion at Talk:List of Masonic buildings. How about opening a new discussion section about inclusion criteria, to add to the previous few dozen. And how about claiming anew that there are no relevant sources, that no architectural history book and no Masonic books have ever talked about buildings, and that no building-specific sources exist (ignoring the content of all such sources). How about breathlessly asking, anew, the same stuff, ignoring now-vast archives of responses to the same.

On the general principle that no good deed should go unpunished, it would seem best to punish this Doncram by more of the same endless complaining. Please proceed! --doncram (talk) 14:27, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

*dumps a load of WP:TROUT in Doncram's car a la Mystic Pizza*--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:38, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I did laugh at that. :) --doncram (talk) 19:09, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Maybe this "endless discussion" would be progressing more if you accepted that the list should have inclusion criteria and suggested some, instead of complaining that other editors are harassing you about it. Maybe those editors have been total jerks, I don't know, but from skimming the last few days of discussion at the article talk page, it looks like they keep asking you to define criteria more explicit than "the items that doncram thinks are significant," which seems a reasonable request, and you keep flatly refusing to do so ("You don't own this article, and you don't get to judge that 'Masonic building' must be defined in some formal way" -- no, we have a guideline that says it must be defined). I don't know why you see that as so burdensome -- you must have a thought process about what items you think belong on the page, so just make it explicit. Maybe if it's listed as a Masonic building on the NRHP, it should be included. Maybe if a reliable source states that it is an NRHP, it should be included. You can have multi-pronged criteria. Propaniac (talk) 16:26, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Because Propaniac seems to want more responsiveness by me there, and because ALR is showing frustration, I replied just now with this reply about what i previously said was obvious at the Talk:List of Masonic buildings discussion. Propaniac, you are welcome to join the discussion there and try to sort out inclusion criteria now. After about 40 discussion sections on that article alone, and many related ones, I no longer believe that any good interpretation of fact or wikipedia policy, or any proposal for anything, even if agreed upon by consensus of all, will stick for any amount of time. Anything settled will be reopened. I don't have infinite patience for this. There are one or a few editors excessively close to the topic of Freemasonry there.

Anyhow, about this ANI report, I see no merit in any complaint here, and no specific request worth considering. There's no need for further discussion here, IMHO, and this should be closed. --doncram (talk) 19:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

As an outside observer, I disagree. Your behavior is in question here. If you do not have the patience to propose inclusion criteria, you should probably step away from the article entirely. Also, unless you have specific evidence of a conflict of interest, I strongly suggest you refrain from claims that editors are "excessively close to the topic of Freemasonry." — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:53, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Jewish Internet Defense Force

I mentioned this Earlier today on AN, but now We got multiple socks coming out of the woodwork at Jewish Internet Defense Force. Could we get some blocks here? Weaponbb7 (talk) 20:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I see another admin has protected the article. Has that helped?--Wehwalt (talk) 20:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

No a suspected sock (thats already auto-confirmed) has popped up causing trouble. Weaponbb7 (talk) 20:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

It looks like an obvious sock puppet. Hinata talk 21:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

In any case, they appear to be edit-warring, so a block may be warranted on that grounds alone if it persists. GiftigerWunsch 21:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

here's one popped up. Can someone block it as a WP:DUCK sock or does it need an SPI? --Errant Tmorton166 21:23, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Its all as Peter Cohen piointed out the users are all User:Einsteindonut or a close assocateWeaponbb7 (talk) 21:25, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The account currently edit-warring was already reported by Peter as a suspected sock on 11 March, but at the time no action was taken, as the account had been protected. I have submitted a further SPI, with a CU request. RolandR (talk) 21:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Whatever happened to AGF on Misplaced Pages? There is a current campaign on the page of anti-Israel/anti-JIDF activists with an agenda to falsely claim that the article reads like an advertisement. Every single point in the article (including the criticism section) is from reliable sources. Consensus about it "reading like an advertisement" has not been formed. --Miamiville (talk) 21:46, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure I understand how you can ask about AGF and then start talking about a "campaign" with an "agenda" to make false claims. I also find it unusual that you stated that you're new to wikipedia, and yet appear to be familiar with policy. GiftigerWunsch 21:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

A perusal of their edits indicates this is not a new editor. Just their edit summaries shows that. Who's been blocked or banned in this subject area recently who might want to re-enter the fray? Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

And also an article can be fully referenced and still read like an advert, it's about neutrality not verification. S.G. _ping! 21:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

This thread, of course, relates to the discussion above about other attemtps to organise Zionist meatpuppetry. The JIDF differs from these other groups by having more people on its alert list than Eric1985's little effort and by being only interested in Misplaced Pages in as far as how it affects the portrayal of their organisation.

Giftiger wunsch has spotted a trademark Einsteindonut/"David Appletree" behaviour in Miamiville, that of turning up as a supposedly new user and yet already knowing Misplaced Pages policy. This new user has also magically found its way to this discussion on its first day on Misplaced Pages. As usual, it isn't clear how many of the accounts operating on behalf of the JIDF are "Appletree" himself and how many are his acolytes. What's probably going to happen is that some puppets will be blocked and the page will be fully protected. What I again say should be doen is that the sighted edits/reviewing experiment should be extended to problematic articles like this and then it can be placed on level 2 protection so that long term Wikipedians can edit the page, good faith newbies can have their contributions reviewed and accepted and the JIDF COI contributions can be kept away from affecting the page.--Peter cohen (talk) 22:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)Ps. in case anyone thinks I am "outing" Einsteindonut by calling him and hsi clones "David Appletree", the latter is the pseudonym used by the man who runs the various JIDF sites and not his real name.--Peter cohen (talk) 22:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I've added some specific issues to resolve on the article's talk page, and suggest we take some time to fix them while the page is protected. There clearly is an astroturfing/whitewashing campaign at work here, and some admin attention is needed. I'm not sure what Arbcom is doing in regards to the jiujitsu/eric1985 issue above, but it's looking like we're going to need some overarching framework to deal with this kind of concerted off-wiki organization and POV-pushing effort in the IP area.

As an administrator previously uninvolved in this or related articles or discussions, I have indef blocked Miamiville as an obvious sock/meat puppet. If any additional ones surface, please let me know here or on my talk page and I will do the like. DGG ( talk ) 22:38, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Given that Miamiville was merely continuing the edits of User:Mreditguy when the latter reached 3RR, it's fairly obvious that both are either socks or meatpuppets, and so I have blocked Mreditguy as well. Black Kite (t) (c) 22:59, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks both. There is an SPI open for them where CU has been requested. I've made comment there about how IPs in three different countries have also been acting in this.--Peter cohen (talk) 23:23, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Delete and salt?

Is the JIDF of such importance that it needs an article? Might it not be better to simply delete and salt the article and its redirects so that genuine Misplaced Pages editors need not have to respond to David Appletree's antics?--Peter cohen (talk) 23:23, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• No, this is a content issue, not a deletion one. It would pass AfD easily. Black Kite (t) (c) 23:26, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) Well it certainly seems to pass WP:GNG with flying colours; I don't think a bit of vandalism is a reason to delete a perfectly valid page. Such a decision should be made at AfD, in any case. GiftigerWunsch 23:27, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
• For all the article's issues, it is notable. Could probably do with a re-write, though. I'm not particularly fond of the current layout, which bears more resemblance to a list of accomplishments than to a description of the group. Throwaway85 (talk) 00:09, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• No, the topic is clearly notable. Delete the unsourced or non-neutral content, not the article. The article needs improvement, not deletion. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 22:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Community ban?

Since this seems to be a problem going back years, I propose a community ban for Einsteindonut (talk · contribs). A community ban will allow us to revert any sockpuppet edits without violating 3RR. And rather than deleting an article about a group that does demonstrate some notability, this lets us keep the content while (hopefully) eliminating the sockpuppet/meatpuppet issue. Burpelson AFB (talk) 00:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Provided we are satisfied it is him, I don't know the user well enough to know. S.G. _ping! 07:01, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

The JIDF site which Einsteindonut runs has the explicit purpose of encouraging meatpuppetry at social networking sites. It is therefore sometimes difficult to tell whether posts are by him or by his acolytes. However the pattern of wave attacks on the JIDF article, its talk page, user talk pages, the drama boards, OTRS and the Arbcom mailing address all make it clear that it is oen person initiating things.--Peter cohen (talk) 10:08, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

support This is a good proposal. However it needs careful wording to make it explicit that all meatpuppetry is covered. Einsteindonut/"Appletree" runs a website that has a lot of followers and also uses twitter and other means to alert his acolytes. While verbal and behavioural analysis of the latest activity all has the mark of it being him acting alone, it does involve the use of IPs from several different countries. So a ban that makes is clear that reversion of anything that quacks is immune to 3RR would be good. perhaps in conjunction with adding him to the list of long-term problematic vandals so that people can go straight to AIV for blocks. I am suggesting this as AIV has the best record of fast blocks when such problems occur. BTW as a measure how much this user is motivated by a battleground mentality, I've just had a warning posted on my page by someone from OTRS who is obviiously unfamiliar with quite how manipulative Einsteindonut/Appletree is.--Peter cohen (talk) 10:02, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support - I have not heard too much about this group, however I took a few minutes to look at the edit history of the JIDF page and what I have seen there convinces me to support this nomination. Specifically, there is a long history of attempts to control the article by means of sockpuppets and unregistered IPs, and going back a little shows me that they have even attempted to insert a link to a page hosted on the JIDF website that attacks and attempts to out a list of Misplaced Pages editors . This article also needs to be watched more closely as many of the sockpuppets and IPs have openly edited and engaged in edit warring there for some time without being blocked. The vast majority of them appear to fall under WP:DUCK. Kindzmarauli (talk) 17:29, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support It is clear that the JIDF site is being used to recruit and organise tendentious editors, particulaarly (but not only) on the JICF article. These editors are not here to improve Misplaced Pages, but explicitly to edit-war their (extreme) point of view into pages. This is not simply individual POV editing, which can be dealt with on an ad hoc basis, but an organised attempt to subvert Misplaced Pages. A community ban, and an entry on the long term abuse page, will help deal with this. RolandR (talk) 18:50, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• support I started this ANI thread and have been watching the article for a while i agree with the above. Weaponbb7 (talk) 21:11, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. Doesn't it seem unfair to block someone, rendering him unable to defend himself, and then start a discussion about banning? It's like throwing someone in jail, then not letting him out to attend his own trial. I'd like to hear Eisendonut's side. Also, does this sort of thing really get decided via a popularity contest? Having been the subject two such ban discussions recently, I'm a little sensitive to Misplaced Pages's reliance on popularity contests to resolve disputes. Noloop (talk) 21:25, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Einsteindonut was indefinitely blocked 18 months ago, for "Abusing multiple accounts: and harassing editors by email and at JIDF". The discussion above relates to changing this indefinite block to a community ban, since the abusive behaviour has continued, and apparently increased in recent weeks. We do not need to lift the block, and enable even more abuse, in order to implement this administrative amendment. In any case, the outcome will be the same: abusive socks will be blocked. But the change will make this simpler to report and effect. RolandR (talk) 21:56, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support -- This kind of deliberate campaign to systemically bias Misplaced Pages cannot be tolerated. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 22:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

User:Sugar-Baby-Love

I would like to report user Sugar-Baby-Love for continued violation of WP:OR and edit-warring and wikihounding. I also suspect he has a sockpuppet (user:Cybermud) but I will take these specific concerns to another notice board.

Sugar-Baby-Love has been adding original research to articles and disguising it as viewpoints advanced by reliable sources. He then starts edit warring with anyone who points out to him that material needs to be attributed to a reliable source. Here are a few examples.

• This entire section is original research because nothing in the source lends support to anything said in the section as I have pointed out here .
• Here his original research is the claim In this context, which is the general opinion of modern feminists, masculism is inherently opposed to the equality cause and is labeled as a form of anti-feminism and as a source he provides this book which doesn't even remotely support his original research and doesn't even mention the term masculism or masculinism.
• Here his original research is the claim that the first definition is as the advocacy of men's rights and the adherence to, or promotion of, social social theories and moral philosophies concerning issues of gender with respect to the interests and legal protection of men. In this context, masculism is a particular aspect of the more general moral cause of gender equality under the law- in which advocates protest against alleged unfair treatment of men in issues such as divorce law.. His two sources don't support any of his claims as I have pointed out to him here and here .
• Here he yet again provides a source but the source does in no way support his claim that The term masculism itself gained currency in the late 20th century, particuly in the 1990s as advocated by authors such as Warren Farrell Jack Kammer, in the context of changing gender roles in society.
• Here he adds a bunch of original research not supported by the source . He writes misogynistic false interpretations when the source says misogynistic interpretations, he adds sentences like Many other scholars have taken differing interpretations and in the end of a deadlocked personal dispute which are never even implied in the source. He misrepresents a source that is about the religious sanction of violence in Islam and its implication for domestic violence and writes a paragraph about misogynistic false interpretation adding original research not supported by the source.
• Here he adds things like self-described biblical egalitarians and and Christian theology emphasised equality between the sexes which are unsupported by the source.
• Here he he just adds extremely controversial claims without even sourcing them.

User Sugar-Baby-Love has been engaged in extreme edit-warring and removal of reliable sources. At this point it's impossible to add anything without Sugar-Baby-Love reverting it. Here a few some examples:

• Here he reverted an edit although I explained that the source doesn't support his claims
• Here he reverted an entire edit and reinstated his original research
• After I have rewritten his edits and removed original research, he simply reverted the edit and called it "revert POV pushing" ironically
• Here he simply deletes a viewpoint advanced by sociologist Allan Johnson during an interview on GenderTalk Radio
• Here he reverted an edit and called it revert POV pushing (again, ironically) even after I explained my actions here

This user has been following me around and joined discussions to attack me or discredit me. Just a few examples:

• Article about misandry: Here he accuses me of ‘’making huge changes of material based on nothing but own personal bigotries’’ because I added this reliable this view attributed to this source
• Article about masculism: Here he accuses me of censoring information because I pointed out that he needs reliable sources for his original research
• Article about Warren Farrell: Here he states that he agrees with a source and therefore I have no right to include it in the article.
• Article about Christina Hoff Sommers: He states that the interview with Allan Johnson on GenderTalk Radio is not a reliable source and therefore the material has to go. “Zippo.”

The most important problem with Sugar-Baby-Love is that this user doesn’t react to explanation on talk pages as to why he can’t just add original research and then add a random source and hope that nobody will check them and see that it doesn’t support his claims. And then he simply reverts edits that he doesn’t like and follows me around to attack disrupt my work. He has been using Misplaced Pages to circulate his original research, edit-warring and wikihounding me and perhaps other editors and I believe that he should be banned from Misplaced Pages. Randygeorge (talk) 22:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Note that Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette_alerts#User:_Sugar-Baby-Love also appears on-going. Thanks, Fæ (talk) 22:56, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

What we have above is an example of an editor who has made huge, dramatic changes in context while being reverted by multiple other editors. Then, her or she falsely accuses the other editors of doing exactly what him or her is doing.

When you click on every single link above, you see context that shows that George is being deliberately misleading. For example, he or she has highlighted these two edits without noting the fact that I did provide citations for that information later-- which you can see at Masculism right now.

In any rate, what we have here attempting to circumvent genuine content disputes already in discussion-- see here and here-- by banning involved users. This is a clear mistake.

I humbly ask George to retract his request for a user ban. Sugar-Baby-Love (talk) 22:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

This is also at the content noticeboard and the BLP noticeboard and is some kind of content dispute spread across multiple articles and related to a similar topic field . IMO both editors need to back off a bit and take their time and use discussion of the talkpages more and try to find additions acceptable to both of them and get some outside opinions. Off2riorob (talk) 23:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with content noticeboard and BLP noticeboard. Those are content disputes. This is strictly about an editor who has been circulating original research and disguising it as content advanced by reliable sources. An editor who keeps edit-warring and wikihounding people. Please check the incidents I described and tell me if Sugar-Baby-Love hasn't been using original research and edit-warring with people who told him that this he needs reliable sources. I tried to use talk pages but said user doesn't react when I tell him that what he adds is original research. Read this and this and notice that the user hasn't addressed these issues. I haven't even begun to address what I believe is sockpuppetry. But I think his habit to add entire sections of original research and refuse to work with people who point out that it is original research and then engage in edit-warring and wikihounding should be banned. Randygeorge (talk) 23:54, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

You can clearly see from that one link (that he or she linked twice for some reason) that George disagrees with what is stated by two reliable sources. When you look at that article's history, you find George promoting a particular view that he or she feels is correct coupled with the removal of a view that is opposed to him or her.

George has a habit of making drastic, fundamental changes in article information without editorial consensus, edit warring when he or she does not get his or her way (with many different users reverting him or her besides me), and then making wild attacks on those who criticize his or her actions.

If George is not willing to drop this patently frivolous complaint, then I hope that an administrator can do it for him or her. Sugar-Baby-Love (talk) 00:20, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

In the interests of transparency Randygeorge, could you please detail your wiki-editing experience prior to starting this account? Your edits do not appear to be those of someone who's only been here for three weeks, and your use of templates in your first few edits is a little more advanced than what we tend to see from new users. Throwaway85 (talk) 00:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I take serious issue with being called a sockpuppet and am, quite frankly tired of dealing with George as I've documented in the other discussions on him/her being an obnoxious drama queen (never used that term before but if it walks and quacks like a duck...) and refusing to play by the rules or respect other editors opinions. I should have been notified of this discussion (since I'm an alleged "sockpuppet") and was not -- yet another of the many problems with George's behavior. It is pretty clear that George is here to promote Misplaced Pages:The Truth and sees a conspiracy theory behind every attempt to censor it--Cybermud (talk) 02:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

A couple points. If you think someone's a sockpuppet, and have enough anecdotal evidence to back it up, report it at WP:SPI and request a sock check. If you think someone has been naughty in their editing behavior, open a WP:RFC at the user conduct section. I've now seen variations on this theme reported at about four noticeboards with no discernible impact on the level of vitriol between these two or three participants, so perhaps you should consider another route to working out your differences. MedicationMediation or an article RFC, or as I mentioned a user conduct RFC for the individual participants. — e. ripley\ 12:29, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

A few more points. Only one of the "two or three" editors is making these noticeboard requests. I don't think anyone's a sockpuppet and am defending myself against that accusation for agreeing with SBL. And suggesting editors defending themselves seek "medication" is a pretty despicable thing to do unless you're genuinely trying to be helpful and suggesting what has worked for you (something that is not at all clear in your comment.)--Cybermud (talk) 17:56, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

It was simply a typo, I meant mediation, as I have made clear in one of the other venues where this dispute has been discussed. I apologize for any confusion, but really, WP:AGF. — e. ripley\ 18:28, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about all of the details here, but I just want to add that on one of S-B-L's most edits at Misogyny (bullet point #5, above), Randygeorge appears to be 100% correct--S-B-L's edit does actually add false statements, exaggerates others, and places statements together to imply things the original does not state. I have no idea about everything else, but others may not want to dismiss his claims out of hand. After reading the citation, I'm sure enough that S-B-L was flat out wrong that I reverted. It's certainly possible that both editors here are pushing POVs, but it doesn't appear to be quite as one-sided as some above have stated. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:59, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

As I said, I will deal with the sockpuppet issue on another noticeboard.

This is not about working out my differences. It's about an editor who uses Misplaced Pages as his soapbox and a platform for his original research. It's about an editor who habitually disguises original research as facts by reliable sources. An editor who engages in endless edit-warring even after you explain to him that he can't add original research to articles. The wikihounding has gotten worse and now he has stalked me to another talk page . It's about an editor who tries to rally support by posting this on various talk pages . I think that these are very serious issues and shouldn't be dismissed as one editor harping on another editor for petty reasons. Randygeorge (talk) 13:12, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

These are not very serious issues, this is a open free to edit website, not a life or death situation, you disagree with his position and he disagrees with your position, please find a meeting place somewhere in between using talkpage discussion, thanks. Users that only edit a single topic field and want that topic field to reflect their strongly held position are a lot of trouble for little editorial benefit, why not branch out and contribute to other areas of the wikipedia. Off2riorob (talk) 14:58, 24 August 2010 (UTC).

Again, this is not a petty content dispute or a disagreement of positions. Please look at the diffs I provided and tell me if the sources in some way support the user's extremely controversial claims. You will see that this user continues to add his original research to articles. This research is not supported in any way by the sources he provides. So I disagree with original research disguised as reliable sources rather than his position. Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox but the user uses it as a soapbox. In addition to that, he stalks me to most articles I've edited (with the exception of one article) and reverts my edits. When I explain to him in detail that his theories aren't backed up by the sources () he ignores this as long as his theories stay in the article. This is not a content dispute. Content that is sourced and verifiable is always welcome. But the user just adds original research and Misplaced Pages doesn't like or allow original research. I ask you to please read the diffs. Edit-warring, wikihounding, and misusing Misplaced Pages as a place to publish one's theories are serious issues in my opinion. Randygeorge (talk) 15:30, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Same old same old, do you see anyone queuing up to sort this rubbish out, no. If think this is a serious issue perhaps you need to reassess your position here. Off2riorob (talk) 15:34, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

By all means I would be more than likely to leave Misplaced Pages forever if George would agree to leave with me. I'm very, very tired to having to clean up his or her messes. Sugar-Baby-Love (talk) 19:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) Perhaps this seems resolved, but this does not actually appear to be a content issue. If either SBL or RG are doing what the other one says, then either of them is clearly violating the requirement to edit in an NPOV way. Again, in the one I checked so far on S-B-L, he flat out misrepresented a source. I don't know if this was a competence issue (in the sense of being able to capture the essence of a source in an NPOV way) or if it was a deliberate attempt to spin the source to say what he wanted, but it was very much a violation of WP:NPOV, and in a deceptive way. If this is a pattern, it's a very difficult one to root out, because his paragraph on the face of it looks accurate, but, in fact, is not at all what the source said. Again, RG could easily be just as bad for all I know. But, again, if either of them are doing this regularly it's not a content issue.Qwyrxian (talk) 21:35, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

The above is not at all a fair representation of the editorial disagreement. I included a citation in which I referred to some things in the citation and not others. This is typical discretion undertaken by every editors. Qwyrxian and George have an editorial disafreement in which they want to and have referred to other things mentioned in the source. I very strongly encourage all interested users to go to Talk:Misogyny and see what is actually being disputed. Sugar-Baby-Love (talk) 01:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

At Talk:Misogyny I note how I absolutely have not "misrepresented a source". Further discussion should take place there. Sugar-Baby-Love (talk) 02:05, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

User:Romaniantruths (the former and blocked User:Romanianlies)

After being blocked for breaking username policy, this editor created a new account with a ironical name. He vandalizes articles about Romanian aviators, including:

• Coandă-1910 (see pre-edit-war stable version. He is adding some dubious references, even if there are many reliable sources which support the stable version of the article:
• Jet aircraft (dsee stable version from before his attacks)
• Aircraft engine
• Henri Coandă ‎ (79.117.193.129 (talk) 07:27, 25 August 2010 (UTC))

3RR-warning given to both of you. Please stop IP-hopping. Thank you. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 07:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• User:Romaniantruths is a sockpuppet of the blocked User:Romanianlies
• He has already broken 3RR on Henri Coanda (4 reverts between 17:50, 24 August 2010 and 21:45, 24 August 2010), so he should be blocked
• It is not an content edit war, but a vadalazing of the articles, as he changes the stable version which is supported by a plenty of sources: (YellowFF0 (talk) 07:53, 25 August 2010 (UTC))

Wikiposter0123 off the tracks

Just to save uninvolved editors time, the posting of this matter on the dailykos website which may have influenced the RFC can be found here BritishWatcher (talk) 00:33, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

During an epic RFC (Addendum: that was reported on by DailyKOS), editor Wikiposter0123 (talk · contribs) has declared that "We are restarting the voting process anew down here, thus the double vote". I am unaware of any policy or precedent by which an editor has the authority to declare an RFC (most especially one this lopsided) invalid, especially when his justification is based on a lawyery definition of "meatpuppet". I suggest that his actions warrant (at the very least) some administrative attention. I'm not willing to strike or otherwise modify his declaration, but I certainly don't think it's valid or should remain. Thanks in advance. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 23:56, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• Comment by User involved After like five or so people voting over the course of about a day we all of a sudden had a massive influx of around 50 nearly identical votes of inclusion from SPA's, people who had not posted in over 3 weeks, and people who had never posted on the topic. I decided to make a new section after the massive pile-on was attributed to the Daily KOs site which has been edited since its discovery to sound less like meatpuppetry. I simply assumed the voting would start over, and that any editors actually involved in would just re-cast their vote. Besides, I didn't voting really mattered. I'm not declaring the RFC invalid(despite Blaxthos suggestion that perhaps the Daily Kos article was an attempt to invalidate the RFC process) I am just resetting it and allowing users to bypass scrolling down the epic pile-on to get to the relevant arguments.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 01:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

It is hell on that page because of blatant attempts to rig that RFC, its not hard to see how someone could go "off the tracks" with that much crap on the track. The RFC should be closed and the debate restart. If that RFC results in the issue in question being included in the article then it is going to encourage clear cheating like that in the future. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:11, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

With a ratio of something like 70:5, and you're one of the 5, I'm not surprised you want to just ignore the RFC. Doesn't the policy actually require us to find consensus through discussion? As I understand it, there can only be "cheating" if we're counting votes. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:14, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

If we're not counting votes why does the ratio matter, and how can you delcare consensus. We've heard from a number of people who happen to read about the story from a source that doesn't always think kindly of Fox News. I'm not saying they should be thrown out, but to say there was absolutely no disruption is silly. We have no consensus, let others who aren't DKOSers respond before declaring such. Misread, See comment below Soxwon (talk) 00:20, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

(ec)Blaxthos, IMO the material is relevant to the page and should be included. IMO an untainted RfC would also reach that conclusion (perhaps not at 70:5) ... but this RfC does look like a smelly pile of something. It might be good to start over. Where did all those editors come from? In fact its so ridiculous that its hard to even imagine that someone who wants the material included initiated that. More likely someone is trying to derail the entire process for fun or because they fear losing the RfC (probably the former).Griswaldo (talk) 00:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I highly doubt that anyone supporting exclusion would go to all the trouble of finding editors that would vote include, and then contact them all (possibly hundreds if only a small percentage responded).--William S. Saturn (talk) 00:31, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment: Blaxthos, don't take this the wrong way, but did you contact users about this RFC?--William S. Saturn (talk) 00:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely not -- I do not participate in mixing Misplaced Pages and anything else in my life.  :) To Griswoldo's point, I submit that the consensus among any cross-section of the respondents is that it should be included -- even if you ignore all the anonymous IP's and obvious SPA's, there is still a clear consensus amongst the established editors to include the material. The three or four opponents are trying every trick in the book -- it was unreferenced, then it's not relevant, then it's really about newscorp, then it is meatpuppetry, now it's about "restarting the vote". Time to call a spade a spade. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:29, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I am then calling you a shovel, because your statement is not true. The very first comment, mine, was that this article was FNC and the issue was about NewsCorp thus not relevant. It was never an unfreferenced issue. The SPA's, and Established Editor Meatpuppets are just extra dirt for the cause. Arzel (talk) 13:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Meatpuppetry is clearly what is taking place there. The policy clearly states Meatpuppetry is the use of editors as proxies to sway consensus. While Misplaced Pages assumes good faith, especially for new users, the recruitment of new editors for this purpose is a violation of this policy. . All those new editors in the RFC are attempting to sway the debate and cause certain material to be included in the article. The RFC should not continue. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Someone needs to run a check-user on all the accounts that were otherwise dormant and all these IPs. I'd freeze the RfC until that is done. See what shakes out then continue it. A normal RfC would definitely come down on the side of inclusion IMO.Griswaldo (talk) 00:31, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

There's no need to run a checkuser on IPs; by the nature of the checkuser process, it wouldn't be able to reveal anything you can't already see. Checkuser is only able to reveal otherwise-hidden data about logged-in users. Nyttend (talk) 00:35, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification.Griswaldo (talk) 00:39, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Note to William S. Saturn and Griswaldo and other's interested, This is where all those editors came from. I think Blaxthos is pointing out that Meatpuppetry doesn't matter as long as we look at arguments made and who is making said arguments, rather than number of arguers (my case in point, I am for inclusion despite being not of the DKOS persuasion). Soxwon (talk) 00:33, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Soxwon is correct. My apologies for not including that in the initial report -- it's kindof assumed knowledge over in the asylum, and I lost track.  :) To Arzel's kneejerk attack, that's just another WP:AGF violation. There is no "coordinated effort" here, nor is it meatpuppetry... a third party website pointed out an RFC already in progress. No, it wasn't me. No, no one was "told" to go !vote. I have no doubt this is all smoke and mirrors in an attempt to discredit an RFC with which 3 or 4 editors are dissatisfied. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Any closing admin is just going to ignore all the spurious !votes anyway, so their presence there is fairly irrelevant. The only question would be what the consensus is when they are disregarded. Black Kite (t) (c) 00:42, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think Arzel's comment was retracted, it looks like it was accidentally removed in an edit conflict. As for the meatpuppetry, if a biased third party website brought up the RFC, it was encouragement to a particular group of people with their own POV, destroying the legitimacy of the RFC. Also, the votes from the DailyKos may have encouraged a pile-on from non-Kos editors unfamiliar with what was going on.--William S. Saturn (talk) 00:44, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

The Daily Kos post specifically asked people to come here.

A REQUEST FOR COMMENTS forum has been called to resolve this matter in the talk section (bottom):http://en.wikipedia.org/... It's essentially two guys against Fox...so if you have an account on Misplaced Pages, please contribute and let your voice be heard! Misplaced Pages is always a top search result of just about any topic, so this does matter--Fox knows it.

The language has since changed. Arzel (talk) 00:56, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Note, this was orginally addressed here. Blaxthos, you know what you can do. Arzel (talk) 00:48, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment by User involved After like five or so people voting over the course of about a day we all of a sudden had a massive influx of around 50 nearly identical votes of inclusion from SPA's, people who had not posted in over 3 weeks, and people who had never posted on the topic. I decided to make a new section after the massive pile-on was attributed to the Daily KOs site which has been edited since its discovery to sound less like meatpuppetry. I simply assumed the voting would start over, and that any editors actually involved in would just re-cast their vote. Besides, I didn't voting really mattered. I'm not declaring the RFC invalid(despite Blaxthos suggestion that perhaps the Daily Kos article was an attempt to invalidate the RFC process) I am just resetting it and allowing users to bypass scrolling down the epic pile-on to get to the relevant arguments.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 01:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

There's a couple of issues there, though. Firstly, there are comments from regular editors mixed in with the "pile-on" votes; you clearly can't ignore those, and nor will a closing admin. Secondly, you've now !voted twice (I haven't checked if anyone else has). You need to strike the duplicate. I would let the RFC run and collapse the extraneous arguing about the re-set, the closing admin will take the pile-on into account. Black Kite (t) (c) 01:23, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

• Comment First, to get my biases out of the way, I believe mention of the donation and the resulting controversy should definitely be included. That said, I do share BritishWatcher's concerns that the DailyKOS article has fatally damaged the integrity of the RfC. I would be just as concerned if Fox News had admonished its readers to "lend a hand" on Tea Party to combat "radical leftists". The rapid influx of editors unfamiliar with our policies and practices pretty much tanked any chance at reasonable discussion, and made what discussion there was impossible to follow. Let's redo it, in a lower-key venue. Some interesting points were raised on both sides, but it's nearly impossible for someone to make sense of the discussion at this point and respond to well-reasoned, well-supported arguments with ones of their own. Wikiposter should not have made the decision to "restart the poll" unilaterally, and I am highly suspicious of his motives in doing so. That said, it does appear to be the right course of action. Throwaway85 (talk) 01:25, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

So, is it your contention that we should not consider the reasoned offerings of editors who just happened to learn of the RFC through a third party? Is it your belief that any "legitimate" editor should have to come and explain his position twice? I just don't see how that's a more reasonable position than for the closing admin to simply consider the discussion in its entirety. All your solution does is reward grossly inappropriate behavior (like unilaterally declaring "I am starting this RFC over" when things don't go your way) for disrupting the process and ignoring the policy. The vast majority of respondents offered a rational opinion, and did not just show up and !vote "include"; admins are not idiots, and are certainly skilled in reading the signal from the noise. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 01:54, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

(ec) For the same reason that I would be crying foul if Fox did it. It has nothing to do with "legitimate" versus "illegitimate" editors, it's the fact that an outside organization with a political axe to grind admonished its readers to come here and influence the RfC. Now, I don't think there was anything particularly nefarious about it, but I am worried about setting a precedent. What happens when the next I-P conflict boils over and a conservative Israeli news agency tells its readers to make sure their view is reflected? The project is far better off protecting itself against undue gaming by outside organizations, even if that involves more work and wasted effort, than letting itself be used as a political chessboard. Throwaway85 (talk) 02:02, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Rather than letting "an outside organization with a political axe to grind" disrupt our process, we should ignore them and move on. Their comments will be considered accordingly, as noted by other editors in this discussion. In other words, the process of starting over is the precedent we don't want to set; because if we have to start over every time someone disrupts the process, then we'll never get anything accomplished. Akerans (talk) 03:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

The primary question then becomes "How do you determine who was part of the disruption?" There were only a few editors involved before the Daily Kos disruption. The new editors and IP's are pretty easy to ignore, but there were a substantial number of registered editors that clearly fall into the same realm. Editors that actually care about the project should still care about it even if the process is restarted, and would be far easier than having an admin go through all of the editors to determine which are which. The worst part about this, and I should have cached the entire DK post right away before it was changed, was that the DK poster fully realized that this approach may not work, but at the minimum they would suceed in wasting our time. They have certainly suceeded at that! As a secondary note, could we please close any action against Wikiposter0123. He was certainly following the spirt of the WP project regardless of whether anyone feels he went against any WP policies. Arzel (talk) 04:02, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not really worried about the process of weeding out the grain from the chaff, as that's the closing admin's job and it's no different from any RfC close, just more complicated. I'm worried about the precedent it sets, and the taint that will hang over it. If the admin decides to close in favor of the inclusionists, then the exclusionists cry foul and say it was all because of the Daily Kos. That in itself is fine; people on the losing end of arguments throw tantrums all the time round here. The problem is when other people look at it and think "hey, the daily kos ran a piece getting their readers to influence wikipedia and it worked! We should do that!". If, on the other hand, the closing admin finds in favour of the exclusionists, there will be a huge uproar (given the overwhelming consensus), and a new RfC will be started anyway. I think we're just better off doing it again now. Throwaway85 (talk) 04:32, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

As Akerans points out, we should ignore them and allow the policy (which deals directly with this circumstance) to work. Regardless of whether you restart the RFC now or later, calling a mulligan and starting over only rewards a persistent and vocal minority who have stopped at nothing to derail an RFC that didn't go their way and sets a very dangerous precedent. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 09:47, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Inserting the text now will reward the vote rigging that took place, it will certainly be seen in that way by those responsible. Far better to restart the debate sensibly than expect someone to close that RFC and sift through all the comments by those who are not meant to have taken part. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

(I don't generally get involved in policy discussions, being more of the gnome/sloth persuasion, but hey there's a first time for everything.) I think the problem is that either way we're going to be rewarding someone's bad behaviour. Either you come down on the side of the SPAs/vote-rigging, or you come down on the side of obstructionist tactics. Both set a bad precedent, but I think it's unavoidable. It'll just have to be made clear that the result was not due to the messing around, but rather points made on Wiki policy. In that case, I agree that we should just deal with the current mess and let an admin close it. EvilStorm (talk) 13:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Several comments: (1) Wikiposter0123 was incorrect to unilaterally declare a restart/do over/reboot, as that is a consensus process. Even eliminating the obvious SPA votes, there still is overwhelming consensus in the RfC to include the questioned content, both in terms of numbers and strength of arguments. (2) We have had many contentious discussions before, even some major battleground ones. America is deeply polarized and the US Senate is nearly totally dysfunctional with almost every vote partisan. Considering the societal forces, is it surprising they play out here as well? It would help, I think, to avoid flinging labels around and questioning motives. (3) The neutrality of Fox News is clearly a politically charged issue and there is bound to be passionate involvement, even by editors that didn't participate before. (4) If an uninvolved admin can't separate the wheat from the chaff in that RfC discussion, he/she shouldn't be closing it. (5) Totally against restarting the RfC, as that would be caving in to pressure, internal and external. We spent far too many resources to throw it away. — Becksguy (talk) 10:33, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

You are wrong about the overwheliming concensus. There were only two editors (Blaxthos and SemDem) involved before it was hijacked by the DK's (per the original Daily Kos poster). A SPA initially asked why it wasn't included, to which I responded and then Blaxthos then made a snide remark. SemDem then started to insert the material with no discussion to which I and a couple others removed. Blaxthos then started the RfC (for no real apparent reason since there was almost not discussion at that point) and then DK hijacked the process. A few other valid editors weighed in after, but there is no valid overwhelming concensus. The vast majority that actually have accounts have little or no contributions to this topic and are clearly the result of the off-site canvassing. The process was corrupted and given Blaxthos' recent actions here I am starting to question whether Blaxthos had anything to do with it. The original DK post clearly stated that "They" had tried to add it and were unable. The "They" can only be user:SemDem or Blaxthos, there was no one else before the SPA Meatpuppets showed up. Failure to restart the RfC will only encourage similar tactics in the futre. Better to restart now, if it really does belong then it will come to that point regardless. Arzel (talk) 13:47, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

The whole point of an RfC is to get other people to look at the matter. Just because there were only 2 inclusionists prior to the RfC is no reason whatsoever to believe there wouldn't have been many more after. You can't say "The vast majority that actually have accounts have little or no contributions to this topic and are clearly the result of the off-site canvassing". An RfC is intended to provide visibility, and it did. Also, your liberal use of the terms "SPA", "valid editors", etc is unhelpful, as is your insinuation that Blaxthos is behind the Daily Kos article. Those kinds of accusations require strong evidence, and you don't have any. I'd ask you kindly to stop. Nevertheless, we do agree that a new RfC should be held. In addition to the reasons I listed above, I simply can't see the editor interactions on that page improving if this RfC is used, especially with Wikiposter's attempted redo. Let's just get it over with. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Throwaway85 (talk • contribs) 15:34, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

The previous four RfC's on the more visable FNC main page were 13, 10, 9, and 5. Since the 2008 election, there has been a decreasing interest on FNC. Now over 70? Sorry, I don't buy it. I stated that I didn't think Blaxthos was behind it from the beginning on my initial report, yet he insinuated that perhaps I was, and then he files this pointy ANI? This whole process smells of manure, and you don't have to be a statistician to see the statistical probability of what has happened to be inconcievably statistical significant. The vast majority that chimed in, where canvassed to do so, and the obvious evidence is overwhelming. Arzel (talk) 16:29, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

There's no guarantee starting over will prevent another pile-on. So, we'll have to keep starting over until all those people are no longer interested, or we can simply ignore them. Soxwon has taken the time and effort to mark new editors as SPA and mark existing editors as "haven't edited in X weeks", and I believe the closing administrator will take that into consideration. Akerans (talk) 17:36, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

We just recently had a contentious RfC on WP:RSN about whether Fox News was a reliable source. There were about 60 participants (including me). So the roughly 70 participating in this RfC is not that unusual. Not for a hot button issue like Fox News. — Becksguy (talk) 20:38, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Despite this ridiculous argument going on here where people like Blaxthos are inventing quotes by me saying "like unilaterally declaring "I am starting this RFC over" when things don't go your way" which I did not say, the RFC is still going uninterrupted. I created a break after the pile, told people to continue discussion. After I and some other guy recast our votes Blax questioned why we were voting twice, I then said "We are restarting the voting process anew down here. Because votes don't actually matter these are really more just statements of our side." which in response to this I have written:

We are restarting the voting process anew down here. We just assumed the voting process had started over, thus the double vote. Because votes don't actually matter these are really more just statements of our side.

Despite Blax and others claiming I have unilaterally declared a restart of the RFC, what actually happened is I told people to continue the discussion, and after myself and another recast our "votes" twice I said we are restarting the voting process because that is what I thought was happening.

There has been no damage to the RFC, it is ongoing without any problems, so what Blax is asking for assistance for I do not know unless he is trying to get me banned from posting arguments. Before the massive influx is was multiple editors against Blax and Sem who were the only people for inclusion, so his representation that I am trying to rig this RFC because I'm losing is absurd. I think our arguments are getting more steam, and expect a consensus to ultimately be reached in our favor.(which is why I have not once suggested a restart of the RFC).Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:31, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

You're right, your actual wording was "We are restarting the voting process anew". Sorry for any confusion. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 02:24, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Disruptive editting at Defamation of religions and the United Nations

Could I get some eyes at Talk:Defamation_of_religions_and_the_United_Nations#Factual_accuracy_tag_dispute? There is a dispute over the factual accuracy tag on the lede section. User:Pyrrhon8 is justifying the tag with issues that have already been addressed, and his comments look like ownership if you ask me. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 02:03, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

As on the article section, looks like a content dispute. Dispute resolution is probably indicated, if a third opinion didn't work, there's always RFC or mediation. Seraphimblade 02:07, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Or, god forbid, someone could read a few paragraphs and take a stand. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 02:17, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

well, I would, but I've run into Pyrrhon before (with unpleasant results) and my entry onto the scene would not improve the situation. Pyrrhon has his own peculiar take on UN Human Rights issues, and he has a truly tendentious manner of approaching it, but he only has 600 edits or so, so... It would be nice if sysop with a calm, reasonable manner would stop in and have a discussion with him about collaborative editing. as it stands, though, the article doesn't look too bad, and the continued presence of the tags is not too painful. ask Pyrrhon if he's willing to abide by a wp:3O on the matter. --Ludwigs2 02:46, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

We already had a third opinion, by his request, and the third opinion sided with my version. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 02:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

and what happens when you remove the tag, with a 'per 3O' summary? --Ludwigs2 04:59, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Pyrrhon is still calling his version the "consensus" version, referring to the article's recent AFD result of "keep" I guess. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 06:27, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I would do that, but I've also had less than favorable interactions with Pyrrhon, actually with Ludwigs2, so I'll recuse from doing anything. NativeForeigner /_Contribs 05:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

He says he will not remove the tags until the "consensus lede" (his version) is restored, and makes no mention of factual inaccuracies in the current lede. Also, amusingly, he filed a complaint against me at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Can someone please take act? AzureFury (talk | contribs) 21:40, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

req4DESYSOP

rsn:INTEFERENSbyINTIMIDATNw/RFC/U -----Please note, I have ] and find typing very hard. I use a form of shorthand, which may be difficult to understand. I can be contacted through MSN (sven70) or Skype (sven0921) if my meaning is unclear. (talk) 04:41, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Wrong venue. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 04:47, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Y,wiklawyer!-----Please note, I have ] and find typing very hard. I use a form of shorthand, which may be difficult to understand. I can be contacted through MSN (sven70) or Skype (sven0921) if my meaning is unclear. (talk) 04:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any interference. What I see is a patent refusal to work well with others. Having a disability is not a free pass regarding WP:COMPETENCE or WP:CIVIL. --Jayron32 04:55, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Sven didn't notify me, but I found this anyway, so don't worry about substing {{aninotice}} on my talk page, i'm aware of the discussion. I stand by my warning. I warned him that if he continued to whine about the WMF et al discriminating against him, he would be blocked. He responded...by whining about discrimination! I'm not going to block myself, because I could be seen as involved, but I think someone else should. The Wordsmith 05:00, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

1inotifydbutnowikilaerin2urC-INBLINDclique —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sven70 (talk • contribs) 05:12, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Notification as in post a message on his talk page so he knows, but anyway, let's try to keep RfC issues at RfC. Netalarm 05:18, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

hestalkongme[butno wklwyr~formalityzas2WHER

• uplDUNEVNOurownprocedur~stifl] and find typing very hard. I use a form of shorthand, which may be difficult to understand. I can be contacted through MSN (sven70) or Skype (sven0921) if my meaning is unclear. (talk) 06:07, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

(ec) you vandalized my sig -- twice. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 05:20, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

UVnoideaboutWOT=vandalismNDAD=GRAVCONCERN,PROB-CREATR!

I stand by my

FINAL

warning. I warned him that if he continued to whine

ALREDYDEwordchois=RUD,DENIGRATIN+OFENSIV!>DESYSOP!

about the WMF et al discriminating against him, he would be blocked.

RFC=BLOKFEST,IC— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sven70 (talk • contribs)

I can't find anything offensive about that message. It was a final warning (which I believed you've received many times now) to discuss your issues with other users. Yes, you are of course allowed to discuss it with other editors, yes you are allowed to ask them for their views, however you are not allowed to harass or or attack other editors (calling them Nazis, etc.). I understand that it may be hard to keep your temper if people are rude to you, but no one has done that. So let's all engage in a reasonable discussion and resolve this issue. Netalarm 05:27, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I can't find anything offensive about that message. It was a final warning (which I believed you've received many times now)

oye-NEDGLASES??testimony2deBIASDNSfr.OUTSET!!

yes you are allowed to ask them for their views, however you are not allowed to harass

ALURBL'EVIDENS'wherPPLINVOLVD,butMAKINTHINGSUPASUGO'MEDIATN'

or or attack other editors (calling them Nazis,

DEYWEREGUDW/DISABLDL2,AO-SV]etc.).

it may be hard to keep your temper if people are rude to you, but no one has done that

LUK@F+GREGLPOST,O,O,BUTnotOFENSIV,DENIGRATIN+DISPARAGIN-TAKESCALSOFUREYS+LEARNBOUTPC!!

• Does anyone else think Sven70's signature is insanely too long and probably violates WP:SIG rules? - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:28, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

NOdadISC.GEN-SORTRudnsOUTOFUR"COMUNITY"THENDISABLDMITENOTNE2TRYnsufer!!DADMUCH!!---Please note, I have ] and find typing very hard. I use a form of shorthand, which may be difficult to understand. I can be contacted through MSN (sven70) or Skype (sven0921) if my meaning is unclear. (talk) 06:07, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I've tried to get him to use a shorter variant that links to the information he wants to present, but he doesn't want to use it, as he thinks it may cause confusion. Netalarm 05:30, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Wha? That mess where he gives his MSN and Skype information is confusing enough and probably opening himself up to all sorts of problems. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:33, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

NO1HASabusdDADVENUE+dad'mess'hasbenCAREFULYREDACTED2GETHEW/ACONCERNDADMIN-a-buti'cantcolaborate[genstanSERTIVDISABLD=fre4al-shameonuppl!> LUK@DEHOLWMF/WP/WIKTmesHARDLYANY1wants2JOINANYMORE[HINT:1RESN=DEABUSIVFAKSDADPOPULATEDISPLACE, ocasionalexc.permitinBUTCALMEDEVANDALdadSCAPEGOATIN'lsolvit---Please note, I have ] and find typing very hard. I use a form of shorthand, which may be difficult to understand. I can be contacted through MSN (sven70) or Skype (sven0921) if my meaning is unclear. (talk) 06:07, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Can someone translate this mess? If you can type all that, you don't have any "Repetitive Strain Injury", you are just being disruptive. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:17, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I have made a rough translation: No one has abused that venue (hardly anyone used it either) and that mess (no denigrating, empathy, less immature people) has been carefully redacted together with a concerned admin (a minority, admittedly). But, I can't collaborate is a free-for-all, shame on you people! Look at the whole WMF/Wikipedia/Wiktionary mess, hardly anyone wants to join anymore (hint: one reason is the abusive fucks that populate this place). but call ME the vandal (who never vandalizes)? That's scapegoating . The Wordsmith 06:31, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I am not calling you a vandal. I am, however, saying that you are attacking other editors and that it needs to stop, immediately. The Wordsmith 06:20, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

If he has 'repetitive strain disorder', why is he even here? 'Hi, I use a method of communication that is literally incomprehensible; please allow me to vomit a mass of text on your page so you can spend ten minutes trying to figure out what I'm saying.'

Frankly his disorder is his problem; if he can't type coherently, why would he even think that being on a website (where text is literally the only method of communication) would in any way be a good idea? That's almost trolling in its ignorance. HalfShadow 06:41, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

It is not "ignorant" to want to contribute to an encyclopedia just because one has a disability; we cater for all sorts of editors who could probably find less difficult ways to spend their free time. Furthermore, it's not like we hand out bans for people whose grasp of English is sub-optimal, which results in a similar problem. His articlespace contributions are fine, and that's supposed to be what we're all here for. A lot of people are not doing themselves favours on this thread. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 10:17, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

An editor can have excellent content contributions and still be indeffed for incivility. sonia♫ 10:25, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I am absolutely not in disagreement with that. However, a great deal of the rancour directed at Sven is due to his writing style, such as the above comment (where he has been called ignorant to the point of trolling for daring to think that he could contribute to Misplaced Pages. That's utterly unacceptable, and yet I've lost count of the number of times I've seen editors spout it after twenty seconds looking over Sven's edits. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 11:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Block

Among the various acts of incivility in this edit we have a particular area:

HINT:1RESN=DEABUSIVFAKSDADPOPULATEDISPLACE

Which I translate as "Hint: one reason is the abusive fucks that populate this place".

This is but the latest of a string of personal attacks against anyone who has criticized this user's behavior. These cases are well outlined in the user's current RfC and its talk page.

I believe the community has been more than tolerant of these various attacks on various members and the time has come for this to stop.

1. Misplaced Pages is not Wiktionary and his grievances shouldn't have been brought here to begin with. He's been told this many times but still persists, it's gone on months in my review. This is a constant disruption.
2. I have applied criteria one would in real life that is, is this behavior a manifestation of Sven's disability? Clearly it is not. His RSI does not cause him to make these personal attacks on people.
3. He has been warned multiple times about his behavior but it has not changed.

Accordingly I have blocked him indefinitely for constant disruption and multiple instances of personal attacks. This may be changed pending further developments on his RfC or a ban proposal I have noted below. --WGFinley (talk) 07:00, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support This behavior needs to stop because it is not compatible with the wiki. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:29, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support Seems like a disruptive troll who insists in communicating only in his own invented language, which gives me and others headaches trying to interpret. This is the English encyclopedia, not the "shrthndijstnvntedtday" encyclopedia. Give me a break! Edison (talk) 04:07, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Ban proposal on User:Sven70

Uninvolved admin note: 1 - Per community ban best practice, this should be allowed to run for a minimum of 48 hrs, excepting extreme circumstances; 2 - A number of the ban proposals and some extraneous comments cross the line into abuse of the user, so-called "tap dancing on this users' grave", which is not tolerated. I would like to request that those commenting below strike hostile comments they may have made, and that others not make further abusive statements. If this continues unabated it would fall under the aforementioned extreme circumstances clause... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:07, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I am proposing a siteban on User:Sven70, as it has become painfully clear to me of his blatant disruption here on en.wiki, which has actually been brought here from other wikis. I hate to say that he is using his disability as leverage to engage in disruption and harassment here because I believe all should have their fair treatment, but I am afraid that this is the case. WP:COMPETENCE applies here, and Sven70 is abusing that in his favor, as he has done on the other wikis. –MuZemike 06:33, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support: Especially due to this mess of shorthand writing which few can read anyway, but he writes in volumes. "Repetitive Strain Injury" my foot. I have Tendon Tunnel (think Carpal Tunnel, but for tendons in your hands) and I can still type in normal everyday English. Combine that with the apparent disruption and harrassment in other areas, yeah, this guy needs to be banned. Indef block already in place, by the way. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

• Strongest Possible Oppose. Don't you know that disagreeing with someone who has a disability is discriminatory? So is taking any sort of administrative action against them! The Wordsmith 06:36, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Dude, I am really hoping you are joking. I have a disability, it is called Aspergers and I have been taken to ANI more times than I can count and blocked a shitload, didn't say "hey, sorry, disability, can't block me". Doesn't work that way. We don't have the ADA here on Misplaced Pages. You screw up, disability or not, you are out. Plain and simple. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:40, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Bull. A handicapped person cannot abuse his driving privileges by triple-parking sideways from a handicapped spot into two non-handicapped spots and get away with it. This is what this basically is. –MuZemike 06:44, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
  • For those who didn't get it, this is an attempt at humour. Probably not a very good one, since it is nearly 3:00 here and I need sleep, but an attempt nonetheless. I actually support a ban, for the same reasons I warned Sven about. The Wordsmith 06:50, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
    • Well other than the fact that it was a bad joke, ban discussions are serious about totally removing someone from the project and they should not be treated lightly, so even the attempt was unhelpful + inappropriate. I suggest you actually strike the comment now (if you have not already done so). Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:55, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
      • No, not a good one. Some, like myself, take matters of disability serious, plus can't read between the lines on subtle humor...now that I can blame on my Aspergers, but I am learning on that one, so my apologizes for getting upset over a joke. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
        • It wasn't particularly subtle, but I'm sure Wordsmith didn't mean to offend anyone. Throwaway85 (talk) 07:34, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Cut the crap > Support No-one needs to be called a Nazi w/o retraction, no-one needs to be called names. It's over. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 06:42, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Enough is enough. He's been given many, many chances to change his behavior, and has wildly ignored them. Disability or not, everyone must abide by the same rules regarding civility and personal attacks. Sven, if you read this, I would like to let you know that I am NOT doing this because of your RSI. I am doing this because of your constant attacks, incivility, calling others Nazis, claims of stalking, and general disruptiveness. (X! · talk)  · @327  ·  06:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support. User:BarkingFish/Sven70Response Translation tells enough. He could use a more intelligible form of shorthand, too. --Rschen7754 06:59, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support Although I see it's been implemented now. I've had hand/elbow problems that made it hard/painful to type, that's no excuse, no matter how bad, for this sort of behavior. Dougweller (talk) 07:18, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support. Incredibly disruptive behavior. I can't see this editor's return causing anything more than constant further problems, on several levels. Doc9871 (talk) 07:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Strong support, and sincere apologies that our block of this user on Wiktionary only caused him to take his abuses elsewhere. As an aside, I use a screenreader set to read each thing I hover the mouse over, in order to compensate for moderately severe dyslexia, and cannot read Sven's comments without an hour of effort, which gives me a headache and then makes it harder for me to continue to read things afterward. The screenreader simply garbles anything he writes. Oh yes and I also have numerous bone spurs in my hands that make it a relatively slow process to type if I want to retain hand function, and yet I use complete English sentences, too! --Neskaya 07:23, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose inasmuch as this seems to have proceeded rather quickly. I understand that Xavexgoem had to some extent (I am not sure how much) taken Sven70 under his wing and/or agreed to act as some sort of intermediary. I suggest that we put this on hold until Xav has a chance to discuss with Sven and weigh in here. →ROUX ₪ 07:39, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• I've always been amazed at how hard Misplaced Pages users will allow themselves to be trolled, but this might be the king of them all. You guys have been used, all of you. Grandmasterka 07:46, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
  • That's kind of... cryptic. What do you mean, Grandmasterka? Doc9871 (talk) 07:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Entirely doubtful, Grandmasterka. He really did try, just in the totally wrong ways. Totally wrong. Xavexgoem (talk) 08:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - indefinite block is enough. And no less than; I support the block. There is the chance he'd be more productive/friendly with voice-to-text in the future. Ban does not allow him recourse should he one day invest in voice-to-text and a better computer. Xavexgoem (talk) 08:04, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Note to Roux et al: I have blocked him from my Skype, so cannot reach him. I don't believe my going over to his talkpage will help anything.
  • That's what appeals exist for; should such circumstances arise, he can appeal to BASC. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
    • I just think it's overdoing it. This is a procedural matter; his chances of unblock are close to nil anyway. I don't need a final nail in the coffin. And to clarify on my !vote: There is the possibility (boy who cried wolf, blahblahblah) that his perceived victimization spiraled to such a point that everything wrong he did do -- insofar as it all makes his shorthand a rather minor point -- became a part of that perceived victimization, causing him to loss all perspective. That's the most optimistic take, unfortunately. Xavexgoem (talk) 08:14, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
      • I can appreciate that; I've kept my support for the block, but I don't really have a view (be it support/oppose) on a ban at this point. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:36, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support (if I can). As a big sufferer of RSI the short hand is a red herring. Sven his doing himself damage using such a cramped typing technique (trust me - I used to try it.... big mistake). His specific shorthand doesn't strike me as particularly efficient. I recommend he gets a voice->speech if he is unable to edit for any specific length of time. What I find helps is 5 minuts editing then 10 minutes doing something else. Inefficient but it saves your hands :) None of that, though, excuses his behaviour - a non-disabled editor would have been banned long ago --Errant Tmorton166 08:28, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oh, absolutely not. A block is, sadly, appropriate here, because while I reckon some of the comments directed at Sven are reprehensible he's clearly not helping the project by posting personal attacks all over the place. However, his articlespace work in general is fine and I've found him to be helpful and cooperative (perhaps because I didn't treat him like a second-class citizen). Let the RFC run its course, and let Sven known what needs to be done to get him unblocked (basically, to stop reacting to people: it's the Internet, and most people on it are going to be idiotic and offensive, and everyone has to deal with that). The degree to which people have been happy to unperson him is ridiculous, and the project is not being aided by a ban here in any way. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 08:42, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Request: I see the above evidence of direct incivility with regards to this thread, which certainly makes an indefinite block appropriate (indefinite until user demonstrates his ability to work within the rules). Usually when I've seen ban discussions before, there is some accounting of past disruptions, and I see no info here other than the above ANI post (which, again, definitely seems block-worthy to me). I took a look at the RfC, and I see 8 listed diffs of disruptive behavior. I don't necessarily think we need an exhaustive list of diffs, but are editors above willing to vouch for the fact that this behavior is more extensive than has so far been described, and is in fact so extensive that we are saying "Sven70 should never be allowed back on Misplaced Pages?" I know that bans can technically be appealed, but the message of a ban is still "You are unwelcome here, forever." As opposed to an indefinite block, which says "You are blocked until you can demonstrate that you have learned from your mistakes and can show us that you won't make them again."Qwyrxian (talk) 08:47, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support - A quick glance through his contribs shows he is able to type clearly. Per that, the above kind of looks like trolling to me. If the user is unable to act in a civil manner, when they clearly can, I see no reason why they should remain.— Dædαlus 09:31, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
  • I think that was him quoting someone else, as he tends to do. sonia♫ 09:33, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
  • It's comments like this (off-handed and half-researched attacks) which led to this situation in the first place. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 10:01, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
    • Question - How are edits such as this perfectly legible entry performed by this user? This is no "cut and paste". If it took him three hours to type this, it's still better than what he's been doing recently... Doc9871 (talk) 10:45, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
    • Comment/Reply - I don't believe he was quoting someone else; it looks as if he genuinely typed that out. That aside, having a disability does not justify calling people nazis.— Dædαlus 19:39, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support. User seems to be unwilling to communicate either civilly or intelligibly. I do not believe that doing both presents unsurmountable technical difficulties no matter what one's condition is, and clear written communication is a non-negotiable basic requirement for contributing to any written medium. We are an encyclopedia, not therapy.  Sandstein  10:54, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
  • I've communicated with him "civilly" and "intelligibly" for several months now. Doing so requires a little more effort and the assumption of good faith, which is apparently too much for some people, but it is not grounds for a siteban. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 11:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose I will not be a party to banning an editor who has tried every avenue to have his legitimate complaints dealt with, only to be met with a wall of indifference, derision, ignorance and facile diagnosis. While I realise that not everyone has been as arrogantly stupid as the wanker over at Wiktionary to declare that Sven70 has "Münchhausen Syndrome", there has been a disappointing disinclination to discuss the issues that he complains of rather than the manner in which he does it. There are (far too many) examples apparent above - and I am the person who wrote Sven70's signature, so that he would not be declared a vandal by people too stupid or lazy to try to make the attempt at deciphering his text(Struck, because I would not want anyone thinking I was referring to one editor specifically... - and I wrote my comment before noting this "vandalism revert". LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:25, 24 August 2010 (UTC)). It is unfortunate for Sven that when people do get the gist of what he is saying, they realise that he is rude and abrupt and is generally in the wrong venue to address his concerns. In so far that this is disruptive, I am not opposing the indefinite block - but I would note that if these issues of disruption were addressed to the communities satisfaction then I would be prepared to unblock Sven70. LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
  • What about him being too stupid or lazy (your words) to use speech recognition software? One person's effort versus the entire community's effort, the onus is on him to improve his writing, not us to decipher it. --Golbez (talk) 16:00, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
    • He is not too lazy or stupid to use speech-recognition software. Good lord! He's running a very weak computer in a far-away land; he has immense difficulty even getting a computer that can handle speech recognition software. Not to mention the prohibitive cost of speech recognition software in the first place. Was "too stupid or lazy" really necessary? No. Xavexgoem (talk) 16:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
      • I do hope you'll share the same ire with LessHeard vanU, who called people lazy and stupid for not wanting to decipher his 'writings'. If you had vision that wasn't relegated to a tunnel, you would have seen I was simply using his words. And I'm sorry, there's no such thing as a "very weak computer" that can still run Skype and MSN Messenger, not to mention a modern browser. If it can run those and Firefox, it can run some version of Dragon. Period. Being in a "far away land" has nothing to do with ... well, anything, so I don't know why you brought it up. He has a computer. He claims it can run Skype. I once ran a copy of Dragon in 1998 that was pretty passable, and I'm reasonably sure a wristwatch could run software written in 1998, let alone a computer capable of running Skype. It should be trivial for him to obtain some speech recognition software that runs on his computer. It seems to me he has chosen not to, and based on his continued statements about being "discriminated" against, I can only assume he enjoys the attention. --Golbez (talk) 18:17, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
        • And how do you know this person's circumstances well enough to pass judgment? If he's living in a far away land, as he says, it might be difficult to get speech recognition software. Your statement that he seems to effectively have Munchausen syndrome (albeit indirectly) is incredibly vicious, and based on what I've seen (I've been following from the outside, not commenting until now) are not grounded in reality. As someone disabled myself (PDD-NOS), I would have the same reaction if someone were to claim I intentionally misinterpret comments because I "want attention". No, personal attacks are not good, but it's in response to very nasty accusations. Think about what your response would be if you were in his situation. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:30, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. An indef block is enough (and I support it); however, I don't see the pattern of egregious disruption or sockpuppetry usually required to ban an editor. Salvio 13:17, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose per LHvU, indef (<>infinite) is enough, but I'd say that as an RSI sufferer myself (I have no feeling in half of my right hand) I'd find it just as difficult to type Sven's "shorthand" as I would normal sentences, and it'd be a hell of a lot less confusing for both me and everyone else. A lot of those "shorthands" hardly use less keystrokes than the translations of them. And there's a lot of characters that need a shift key, especially the square brackets. I do find my credibility strained slightly by this. Black Kite (t) (c) 13:20, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• What the f*ck was all this?! Uh... looking at contribs, this guy was editing just fine on articles - long blocks of text that were properly typed and all - but in talk space, not so much. I'm seeing disruption to the max in those community areas, probably deliberate. Support unless we see some level of improvement in communication. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:26, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• The indef is enough - no need to overdo it. Connormah 17:17, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• All posts on Misplaced Pages talk pages should be in English, per Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines so that "comments may be comprehensible to the community at large. If the use of another language is unavoidable, try to also provide a translation of the comments. If you are requested to do so and cannot, you should either find a third party to translate or to contact a translator through the Misplaced Pages:Embassy. Misplaced Pages talk page guidelines." This applies equally to someone who claims to be only able to type in a unique idiosyncratic shorthand. I can't tell what he is trying to say in most of the posts, and I expect that applies to many other editors. If there is no possibility of him getting someone to provide an English translation, he should find technology such as text to speech to make his posts comprehensible, or he should not be posting. Edison (talk) 17:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose No need to repeat wiktionary's mistakes. Protonk (talk) 17:34, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - Dragon NaturallySpeaking - It works great. I should think that anyone with the disability he describes would have gotten it long ago. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 17:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Comment leaning support I don't know enough about his history to decisively vote on the ban, but while a lot of the comments are related to his disability/style of shorthand, I wonder how deep the issue of his personal attacks go? I don't buy for a second that his repetitive stress injury justifies the gibberish he is typing, but it is his apparent habit of attacking people that is the greater concern in my view. Resolute 18:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support - I am patently stunned that you chummers are playing directly into his hands and claiming that his disability (and how he was treated on Wiktionary) are mitigating circumstances. News flash: Claiming disability does not give someone the right to accuse other editors of being Nazis (which, need I remind you, is above and beyond the pale compared to most other insults). And given the other comments in this thread above, I smell a troll. I do not believe, for a second, that his RSI is as severe as he's attempting to make it out to be. (Disclaimer: I am a mild Aspergian myself.) —Jeremy 20:29, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support - I don't think there's enough AGF in the world to believe this user must resort to such cryptic Leet, but can edit articles without any trouble. Even assuming that this is the truth, there's been too many personal attacks to let slip by. I've interacted with other editors who have serious disabilities, and they were able to do better than inventing a cryptic shorthand for interacting with the community. If the user can show they will refrain from personal attacks, and perhaps seek a better way to interact than cryptic abbreviations, we can lift the ban & block. — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:35, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand; if we're saying that we're willing to consider a future change in behavior and let him return, that means an indefinite block, doesn't it? Qwyrxian (talk) 21:56, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Bans can later be overturned by community consensus. The difference is, indef can be lifted by an admin at any point; bans need community discussion to be lifted. This is a very contentious issue and, if a ban is placed, needs a discussion before it's lifted again. — The Hand That Feeds You: 22:58, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose: After thinking about my previous comment and some of the other comments here, I can's see why need a ban anyway--does anyone think he's going to start sockpuppeting, so we need the ban to justify immediate blocks? Why can't we just say "You're out until you prove to us that you can stop the personal attacks." I guess what I'm saying is, for those who want a ban, what specifically do you think a ban accomplishes that the indef doesn't?Qwyrxian (talk) 21:56, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

See my comment above: indef can be overturned by a single admin's decision. Given the disruption and general attacks, I'd prefer his return require community debate & consensus, which a ban would require. — The Hand That Feeds You: 23:03, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support Per Edison, WP:COMPETENCE, and WP:NOTTHERAPY. As others have pointed out, this user's insistence on using shorthand when they are capable of using normal english in the mainspace is rather suspicious. As Edison has pointed out, talk page guidlines require the use of english on talk pages. According to WP:NOTTHERAPY, disabilities are not an excuse for disruption. IMO, the suggestion that sven70 invests in a voice to text program is not unreasonable. If they can't afford it, that's his problem. IMO, in general, if a person decides to engage in a regulated activity, they must be able to adhere to the regulations for that activity. If they are unable, then they should not engage in that activity. For example: would it be reasonable to let an owner of a chemical plant continue to operate said plant with faulty safety devices because they couldn't afford to replace them? No. Same logic applies here, IMO. RadManCF ☢ open frequency 22:12, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support - Many of the points I would make to explain my position have been made by others (and especially succinctly by RadmanCF), so I won't belabor them. MSJapan (talk) 22:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
• OpposeA site ban is an extremely drastic action, and to adopt in with a single day's deliberation for something which is adequately handled without it seems to be using power for the sake of showing that one has it. DGG ( talk ) 22:31, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

The user hasn't been banned yet, so calling it "a single day's deliberation" seems premature. And I'm surprised you would go straight to bad faith with "power for the sake..." etc. We're still discussing it, so it's not gone extreme yet. — The Hand That Feeds You: 23:03, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

There's a very strong suggestion that much, if not most, of the support here comes from people who took less than five minutes to look over Sven's edits, got annoyed that they couldn't read them, and decided to unperson him. Quite how you decided that DGG is assuming bad faith while earlier having pronounced that AGF was essentially impossible here (which is false, and offensively so) is beyond me. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 23:56, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

There is also a very strong suggestion that many of the supporters here are from people who have spent months and countless hours interacting with him who have decided that it's gone too far. Myself included. (X! · talk)  · @064  ·  00:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that all of the support here is from rubberneckers, but that a worrying proportion of it is. That's problematic considering quite how serious a ban proposal is. There's no doubt that something needs to be done here, but the question is whether an indef (which has halted the disruption) genuinely deserves to be upgraded to a siteban. Given that Sven obviously has a short temper, proposing such on the same day as the block (which has, almost inevitably, resulted in further flameouts on Sven's talk page) is likely to mean that he's seen in the worst possibly light here. Considering that his block log is hardly extensive, a ban on the grounds of unmanageability would be an extreme reaction. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 00:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Chris, that dog is more than dead; I don't care if he writes FAKNasWLE, fNKsshOl, or fucking asshole; nZI@min, ADM=NZee, or Nazi admin -- I can read all variations. Shouting req4DESYSOP after a final warning that wasn't offensive with the rationale and complaint ALREDYDEwordchois=RUD,DENIGRATIN+OFENSIV!>DESYSOP! while continuing insult others is inappropriate no matter how it's spelled. Telling me UVnoideabout after his reinstating his own vandalism is a blatant lie. Thus far any well-meaning comment or point has been dismissed with the accusations of oye-NEDGLASES??testimony2deBIASDNSfr.OUTSET!! or some such. None of that has anything to do with the way he chooses to type. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 00:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support Unfortunately. I feel kinda bad for him having a physical disability but WP:COMPETENCE was written for just that reason. It doesn't have to be a punishment or because we "don't like him", or because he is operating with malice, it's to prevent damage to the project. Burpelson AFB (talk) 01:22, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support User appears to be a net-negative producer around here. I have had RSI myself, and have known multiple other people who have had carpal tunnel or other similar disorders, and do not find the users assertion that he has a disability either credible, or if actually true, sufficient justification for his communication style or behavior. When he can formulate a proper BASC appeal, and commit to communicating effectively in written English, his participation can be considered on its own merits. Jclemens (talk) 03:22, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support Block this disruptive troll, who persists in only posting in his own invented language/shorthand, due to his claimed disability. Edison (talk) 04:11, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
• Comment It would be a mistake to give the impression that a contributor was blocked due to their disability, setting aside for a moment whether it is in fact true or not. Further, the competency of Sven should not be in question, only the user's ability to communicate effectively, which is an obvious requirement for building an encyclopedia. Still, I would like to see a ban discussion with little or no discussion on the Sven's disability and more on Sven's behavior before I would be likely to support it.   Thorncrag  04:23, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support - I am unsure if anyone realizes it but Sven70 has a sockpuppet that was blocked as a vandalism-only account. He names the account on his own userpage and the account also edited Sven70s userpage once. The socks contributions are at Special:Contributions/史凡. I support the siteban. Kindzmarauli (talk) 05:30, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support Hard to tell if this is a very sophisticated troll or an upset, misunderstood person with a genuine problem (all the contrib's I looked at at Special:Contributions/史凡 were constructive but account was banned as vandalism only). Nevertheless, the "shorthand" doesn't work here. When you have a system that supports Dragon, apply to have the ban lifted and it will be considered sympathetically. Anthony (talk) 06:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose, but keep the indef in place. Communication with this user is nearly impossible, due only in part to his shorthand. Every message I've seen is inflammatory and accusatory, and I simply don't think he's a good fit for the project right now. Maybe after getting voice to text set up we'll have an easier time communicating with him and he won't be as frustrated and out of control, but his current attitude is incompatible with our mission here. While we certainly should not discriminate against those with disabilities, we should not coddle them either. Sven has accused everyone, from admins to editors to the foundation himself of discriminating against him any time someone raises an issue with his conduct. It's a tired excuse. Let him back when he's better able to communicate without flying off the handle. Throwaway85 (talk) 07:00, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Is there a good reason for the ban when a block suffices?

Can someone explain to me or anyone else curious why a ban is better than an indef block? My understanding is that a ban is largely a social measure with little in the way of recourse. I understand that there is recourse, but wouldn't it be easier to request an unblock -- if and when that happens -- from the userpage? Forgive me if this all seems a little ridiculous. What's done is done, isn't it? Xavexgoem (talk) 06:58, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Agreed - blocks are cheap and easy to undo. Bans require community consultation. Why do we need to dance on his grave? → ROUX ₪ 07:00, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
• Agreed - I'd be willing to consider a ban if, upon his return with legible communication, he still displayed the same behaviour that got him blocked. I think this thread is about ready for a resolved tag.
• The reason for a ban is that an admin can't unilaterally decide to unban someone, it requires discussion. Indef's can be removed at a moment's notice. Also, if a user is formally banned, any sock he uses to try and post something can be removed regardless of its alleged quality. Bans always carry either a threat of suspension (on a topic ban) or a concurrent suspension (on a site ban). ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 07:07, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

OTOH Bugs, I doubt it would be too hard to spot a Sven sock. Pretty easy to block them too. Throwaway85 (talk) 07:16, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Don't Agree: Even during discussion, people who could make out what he was saying said he was still showing the same disregard for policies as before. Plus, with the finding he created a sockpuppet account (and edited in perfectly legible English for the most part) shows this jumbled nonsense far above was just there for nothing more than disruption. Plus, the current !voting is leaning clearly toward support for the ban, so this is all moot anyway. Ban is pretty much in place, let's move on. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 07:18, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Off-topic policy question
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Annoying Point Of Order - I know know one actually reads these headers, but at the top of this page under "Are you in the right place?": "To start a ban discussion, see the administrators' noticeboard." Shouldn't this be moved there, to keep in line with this? Jus' sayin'... ;> Doc9871 (talk) 07:28, 25 August 2010 (UTC) No. This belongs here because it followed on from an ANI report. If the rule in the header was going to be enforced like that, as I said at the time, it would need to be changed to explicitly provide ANI as another venue. At the time, there was agreement to only mention AN to encourage users to start ban discussions at AN - this is in circumstances where there is no incident report that later prompted a ban proposal. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC) AN is preferred, but there's an acknowledged exception for ban proposals flowing out of other problem reports here. I will crosspost a notification regarding this there, however. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:34, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Thanks! I just wanted to be clear on this. Feel free to collapse this as immaterial to the discussion.  :> Doc9871 (talk) 07:40, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/hat User:HareKrishnaPortal This user has created or edited several unsourced and non-neutral POV/promotional pages and a portal relating to Hare Krishna. Portal:Hare Krishna Hare Krishna media gallery Krishna consciousness philosophy Vedic Cosmology All of these have been nominated for deletion by myself or others, after explaining Misplaced Pages policies regarding RS, NPOV, Not a Soapbox, etc. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Vedic Cosmology Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Krishna consciousness philosophy Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Hare Krishna The user responded by making strange religious statements and other spiritual threats . This user was blocked for a period of time for randomly adding mfd tags to atheism-related articles , but IPs showed up soon after and continued to edit Portal:Hare Krishna and harass myself and other editors among others. P. D. Cook 05:08, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Update. The user continued adding mfd templates to the atheism portal and off-topic addition to an active mfd . I reported the user to AIV. P. D. Cook 05:25, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I ended up blocking him indefinitely. The community can decide here if they want it to stay like that but he was clearly not listening to warnings or willing to talk and had already been blocked for similar issues a couple days ago. James (T C) 05:34, 24 August 2010 (UTC) "atheists face repeted rebirth and death life after life. Chant Hare Krishna instead if you are intelligent" and asking DanielRigal whether xe is a demon or a sinner tells me that this person isn't really here to build an encyclopaedia, or is in any way attempting to embrace the neutral point of view. Whether we have such a portal or not, this person is wholly unsuited to writing it (and possibly anything else) based upon all contributions so far. Uncle G (talk) 10:02, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Oh yeah. I got one of those too!. P. D. Cook 11:34, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Isn't HareKrishnaPortal the same as Qualities108? Shouldn't they both be indeffed? Everard Proudfoot (talk) 19:19, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Jrod2 being uncivil and posting messages on my talk page after he's been asked not to I contested a PROD placed by User:Jrod2 who then (against policy) restored the contested prod . Jrod2 then placed this uncivil post on my talk page - basically telling me to not contest his PROD. The top of my talk page states that I will reply to messages left on my talk page on the sender's page. At Jrod2 talk page I left this post thus starting a thread for Jrod2's further replies (if necessary) But instead he deletes my post on his page and posts this uncivil post on my talk page. I reply here telling Jrod2 directly that he is not to post messages on my talk page. Ignoring my request to not post on my talk page, Jrod2 taunts me by posting this rude message on my talk page. I request that Jrod2 be sanctioned for his uncivil behaviour. Inniverse (talk) 05:08, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I don't see anything wrong with the message he just posted on your talk page, Azviz. –MuZemike 06:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Editor talk pages exist to allow other editors to post notices, etc. Forbidding users from posting there, absent a clear history of harassment, is inappropriate. You can always delete messages after you've read them.   Will Beback  talk  06:49, 24 August 2010 (UTC) You can still ask people not to, which is a good way of avoiding drama. But then, running to ANI to get "sanctions" straight away runs somewhat counter to that strategy. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 10:10, 24 August 2010 (UTC) The only thing that I can see wrong on JRod2's part is in thinking that Misplaced Pages:Proposed deletion of biographies of living people applies to an article created in March 2007. Inniverse, on the other hand, is seeing incivility where it doesn't exist; and this report is ill-founded and possibly a continuation of a long-standing pattern. MuZemike's note back in June on Inniverse's past behaviour with respect to Proposed Deletion is informative. Uncle G (talk) 09:43, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Yes, I've noticed this with articles that I've PRODded recently. Inniverse removed the PRODs with spurious rationales ("has a large fanbase"), then !voted Keep on the resulting AfDs (here, here, here, here and here) with an equally spurious rationale (as Uncle G - clearly a notorious deletionist, I don't think - has pointed out to them), and then tagged them for {{rescue}} for no apparent reason. He does dePROD correctly sometimes, but some are very shaky. And the talkpage issue isn't appropriate. Black Kite (t) (c) 10:55, 24 August 2010 (UTC) The only "-ist" I espouse being is encyclopaedist. ☺ I'm less happy about Jrod2's interactions with Off2riorob. The advice some days before to not template the regulars didn't sink in. Perhaps that practical experience of the reaction of some regulars, who don't just chuckle to themselves at the naïveté when someone does that sort of thing, will help it to do so. Uncle G (talk) 19:39, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I don't see anything uncivil in what Jrod2 has said, and I do not think Inniverse has the right to forbid people to post on his talk page. That's what they're there for after all. Reyk YO! 10:31, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Agree I see no incivility. In any case, WP:OWNTALK permits messages to be removed at will and even rolled back; if you don't wish to receive the messages, revert them. Short of actual harrassment, it's inappropriate to administer a ban on posting to the talk page. GiftigerWunsch 10:59, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Usurped account - history incomplete and talk page Resolved Hello, I requested at Misplaced Pages:Changing username/Usurpations last week to usurp the account User:Amakuru, having been known as User:Muraho. This was carried out successfully. However, there appear to be two issues: My talk page has not been moved, so is still at User talk:Muraho, while the User talk:Amakuru page is now a redirect to User talk:Amakuru (usurped), which is the talk page for the now usurped user (who has never made any edits). My edit history has only been merged into the new account up until May 2006. All edits made as User:Muraho and another username I was previously known as, between then and now, have not been merged. I understand that it may take some time for the servers to catch up with the move, but it's been five days now. Is this expected? Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 07:27, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I have moved your talk page. I think the merger of the edits may take quite some time, though other people are probably more familiar with the technicalities of user renaming. Ucucha 08:30, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Thanks for doing that, Ucucha, and for the renaming of old links. I will wait and see what happens with the edit history. — Amakuru (talk) 09:43, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Misplaced Pages:BN#CHU processing delays? may be of interest. TNXMan 11:50, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Ah OK, thanks for the heads up. I will follow the "2 days is no cause for concern. 2 weeks, start to wonder. A month, ping a developer" rule then. — Amakuru (talk) 16:56, 24 August 2010 (UTC) bugzilla:23819 will help with this. –xeno 16:58, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Pricer1980 evading block Resolved A few days ago, an editor named Pricer1980 (talk · contribs) added false company information to film articles. I started a WP:ANI discussion as seen here, and it resulted in him being blocked for one week. (He had been blocked once before and has never communicated with anyone except to blank his talk page.) The IP 86.174.166.61 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is editing in the exact same manner and is evidently Pricer1980 evading the block. Since the WP:ANI discussion supported undoing all of his contributions, I've done that so far, but the edits continue, and I think a preventative block of the IP is necessary. Could someone please take action? (I contacted JohnCD, who had blocked the user account, but he has not responded yet, so I wanted to notify a larger group.) Erik (talk | contribs) 10:48, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I have blocked the IP for a week as an obvious block evasion. Question is whether to extend Pricer1980's block as well. Favonian (talk) 11:15, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Considering the lack of communication that has taken place, the harmful and easily-overlooked contributions to Misplaced Pages, and the continuance of disruptive editing on his IP, I would favor an extension of Pricer1980's block. Erik (talk | contribs) 11:19, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Would anyone object to me making it into two weeks? Blood Red Sandman 13:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I wouldn't objec to you making it indef, to be honest. Black Kite (t) (c) 13:08, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I'm always careful on WP, as my home wiki (WN) tends to issue stronger blocks than here. I'm happy to indef; I'll sure not miss them. Blood Red Sandman 13:12, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Thank you. I will watch for the editor's pattern in the future. Erik (talk | contribs) 13:30, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Visa requirements for Palestinian citizens Resolved – I AFD'd the article, no admin action needed --Errant Tmorton166 12:34, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I don't know how to deal with this in other venues, there is no obvious formal reason to AfD it, so I decided to put it here. The article is an unreferenced mess, which has been subject to sockpuppetry and edit-warring for the inclusion of unreferenced and utterly fictitious information for months . Maybe I am out of touch with reality, but the list looks completely bogus to me. 30 days of visa-free travel to Canada, the US, Austria, Belgium and visa on arrival elsewhere? Kinda hard to believe, given that the Jordanians, Egyptians, Lebanese and Israelis have much less opions. Please take care of it to make it verifiable. I can't monitor it on a daily basis. Colchicum (talk) 12:14, 24 August 2010 (UTC) AfD, borderline {{db-hoax}}. The information is very clearly wrong and not supported by any sources. -- tariqabjotu 12:28, 24 August 2010 (UTC) AFD it as unsourced and possible hoax. There isn' really any admin action that can be done/needed. --Errant Tmorton166 12:29, 24 August 2010 (UTC) User:Eddie Schluessel Resolved Since yesterday (August 23), User:Eddie Schluessel has been inexplicably reverting any edits I make to articles despite being warned not to. It started with their very first edit after creating their account on an article about a 1924 film where they did what appears to be a blind revert which I reverted back because, in addition to removing some material (which is wholly unneeded), I also made stylistic changes (flag icons removal & proper date formatting) and added more specific categories. The edit also restored a bit of long-standing silly vandalism as I'm certain Leo Sayer wasn't in a silent film (well, maybe he was but not this one). After that edit, Eddie Schluessel seemingly went though my history reverting any edit I made to articles. A few were reverted by another IP user ( and ) and I restored the rest. I left a rather curt message on their talk page regarding their edits as did User:Jeff G. Today I come on to find yet another one of my edits from yesterday inexplicably reverted. It seems this accounts sole purpose is to follow my edits around and revert them. Can someone have a word with them? 70.241.16.221 (talk) 14:01, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I have had the requested word. I gave him one chance to get his act together, if he fails he's blocked. The way he rather appeared from nowhere suggests an SPA sockpuppet to me; can you think of any likely candidates for a sockmaster? Blood Red Sandman 16:10, 24 August 2010 (UTC) User indefblocked. Blood Red Sandman 23:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Thanks for the swift action. 70.241.16.221 (talk) 03:23, 25 August 2010 (UTC) User:Dodo19 - stalking User:Miacek and compiling his 'Little Black Book' Dodo19 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) I am running out of patience with a user (and a couple of IPs). I once came across a certain Dodo19 @ Zeitgeschichtliche Forschungsstelle Ingolstadt, who after our encounter immediately started stalking me across all the articles I edited on that day (3 August, 2010), mechanically reverting my changes, adding bogus edit summaries like this, until both of us were blocked for 'edit warring', though only Dodo19 technically broke 3 RR. When he returned from his block, he immediately proceeded with edit warring @ Viktor Suvorov, but gave up there, after I was supported by another user. Since then, this user has been busy with stalking my edits, and during last weeks compiling basically a ’Black Book’. Here it is (47 diffs with the stand of August 24) He clearly functions as a single purpose account of stalking me and collecting 'evidence' against me (he also included at his talk page a couple of diffs against other users, under special subheadings, whom he, it seems, either thinks to be my sock puppets or ‘suspiciously similar’ in appearance). For some time, I didn't pay attention to it (though as I watchlist the page since my first encounter I noticed this at the beginning), thinking that he'll give up anyway, considering that Dodo actually claims to be {retired}. But as there's been no sign of this circus ever stopping, today I finally decided that enough is enough, and told the user that such practice is unacceptable and asked him to remove this attack page. He proceeded to erase my notice in 5 minutes (suspiciously quick given that he has never edited any articles under this account since 5 August!). No wonder that he just removed my comment: It is his standard practice to just immediately undo any warnings that more experienced users have posted on his talk page . What makes me even more concerned, is the fact that all my edits in the contributions list are being constantly very closely scrutinized by another German IP user (IP range 78. …), who has been making biased edits to BLP articles since Dec. 2009. I have reported both this IP range stalking me and his BLP violations, it seems the latter issue is improving, as other impartial users have joined in to address my concerns there. As was to be expected, however, the IP 78...'s stalking of my edits at the very moment I am writing these lines (note that it was the wrong year that he entered there into the article I had just created). It should be noted that Dodo19 has also edited as IP 92.225.139.239. Not surprisingly, IP’s from that range have propped up to edit war in some of the articles I have edited. , . They might be connected with Dodo19, but might not be. I want to start new articles and improve others without being harassed by a couple of German trolls. However, regardless of the fact if these two issues are connected, I want some action taken against Dodo19’s campaign against me. It is a single purpose account devoted to collecting ‘evidence’ against me. His diff compilation on me constitutes an attack page by now. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 14:45, 24 August 2010 (UTC) User:Dodo19 notified. DMacks (talk) 14:56, 24 August 2010 (UTC) 92.225.139.239 == Dodo19 per this edit (didn't look deeper or in the surrounding IP range). However, Dodo19 has continued editing (both article-space and user-space) despite that "retired" tag. His diffs collection is totally outside scope of WP user/usertalk pages. If he's retiring, then bye bye, no need to have that there and no need to continue here. If he's not, then it suggests on-wiki-stalking, which is not allowable either. Dodo19's edits themselves don't stand well (many others on talk-pages keep trying to point out his problems with WP:OR, etc). We're left with problematic edits (though he does discuss them, so not itself a fatal problem) but all recent behavior appears to be following Miacek around usually picking in his edits or comments. So...zero asset to wikipedia at this time. DMacks (talk) 15:09, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I laughed out loud at these paragraphs. BTW, the IP you are talking about appears to be obsessed with you. I hope I made no offense to you. Hinata talk 15:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC) What the IP has been doing is not funny at all. It is a classic case of Wikihounding. He behaved like that with User:Mrandsl, once they had met in German wikipedia. The IP 78's bias was so heavy that one subject of the article had to register and complain of the manner the article had been composed. By that troll. Yesterday, I couldn't even edit a minor article related to Prussia/Poland without that loony appearing to revert me. The IP may be “obsessed with” me or with other users, but that's exactly why we should set admin tools ready for those, who are not interested in writing an encyclopedia, but in smear campaign and hounding. As for Dodo, I agree with DMacks' opinion that it is time Dodo uses his right to leave. He is either incapable of creating or not willing to create encyclopedic content. His attack page should be deleted. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 16:12, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I will agree with DMacks. If the editor is truly gone, then this is resolved. If they continue to edit in a problematic way, either as a registered user or as IPs, then action needs to be taken. Any "evidence" collected can probably be ignored unless they decide to do something with it. -- Atama頭 20:32, 24 August 2010 (UTC) The IP user went on yesterday and continued today. It's nothing but following my edits, posting 'warnings' at my talk page, pointless inaccurate changes of my contributions. Note that I avoided everything controversial today, he would start edit wars otherwise. Secondly, if Dodo19 has left, then he should stop collecting incriminatory diffs against me and blank his Black list. He continues with the opposite activities. Such compilations are NOT acceptable. If this is not wikihounding, what is? Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 20:54, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I just want to note that calling DoDo19 a "singe purpose account" is patently ridiculous. He has been on Misplaced Pages since 2008 and edited articles on World War II and associated subjects. Some of these articles that Miacek is accusing him of stalking him on, DoDo edited long before Miacek, so if anything the stalking goes the other way; and the diffs DoDo19 is collecting appear to be a defense/documentation of that fact.radek (talk) 20:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I don't see it as ridiculous at all. Whatever contributions Dodo19 has made in the past, the editor's recent behavior seems to be that of a stalker. It also seems very deceptive to claim to be retired and to stop editing with their main account just to stalk someone while not logged in. I reviewed the addresses and they all seem to be plausibly the same person; same ISP and identical geolocation to each other, and we have confirmation that one of the IPs is definitely Dodo19. I'm not sure what can be technically done here, I fear a rangeblock might have too much collateral damage. But something needs to be figured out here, harassment is a big deal. -- Atama頭 21:32, 24 August 2010 (UTC) The point, which you're missing, is that Dodo, an established editor with a clean block log until this happened, was active on some of these articles BEFORE Miacek. Hence, charges of 'stalking' are absurd, not to mention the fact that calling him things like "single purpose account" (is he? Diffs please) or a "German troll" (diffs please) like Miacek does is very offensive and clear violation of WP:CIVIL. No wonder the guy wanted to retire. I don't know if the IPs are him. But what apparently happened here is that DoDo19 was a productive and valued contributor to many articles on World War II. Then he got in these spats with Miacek and got a block for edit warring which apparently he felt was unfair. Add to that Miacek's persistent accusations and attacks and it seems DoDo did two things: 1) began collecting diffs to document Miacek's behavior and then 2) decided to retire. Now, if he says he's retired he should either remove that banner from his page or really retire. But it often happens that when productive users feel they've been treated unfairly (which is continuing here btw) they get mad, and wish to leave the project, but can't quite let go without "tying up loose ends". There is no evidence of harassment (gathering diffs on one's talk a page does NOT qualify) nor of stalking.radek (talk) 01:53, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Radeksz is a user I have recently clashed with on a number of issues, and in cases Dodo19 was involved, Radeksz and his former cabal pal MyMoloboaccount invariably agreed with Dodo19. Radek is a partisan user on that matter.As for Radek's further hints, Dodo19 has a high editcount just because he has made thousands of bot-type edits like categories. The number of content-related major contributions is low. On the other hand, I have started over 60 articles, so it doesn't matter who registered first.Dodo19 has a long history of POV pushing, e.g. in case of Estonian history (I'm from Estonia, too, btw). As the issue of IPs has been once raised, let us look further into the matter. The trouble with the 78… range started on 4 December, 2009, as User:Mrandsl had made some changes to Alfred de Zayas here, and at the same time complained of partisan description at the corresponding German Misplaced Pages article http://de.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Alfred_de_Zayas&diff=prev&oldid=67594097 (the edit summary is in English). His edits were all reverted in German wikipedia . User Mrandsl was a contributor who started a number of articles on controversial German historians here. Looking his comments, I'd agree with him in that his opponents engaged in WP:UNDUE and WP:BLP violations (the latter having been my special concern recently). True, he, on the other hand might've been too uncritical of the subjects. For this, a vendetta was conducted against him by IPs like 78.53.32.121, 92.229.61.33. The user account Dodo19 represented similar POVs. As for the IPs, please note the inflammatory category he added into the article), trying to paint as negative a picture on the historian as possible. Note also that at the same time this IP is defending the leading far-left newspaper in Germany. All of this is even more astonishing, if we consider that the person(s) behind those IPs has/have much knowledge on German historiography, as does Dodo19. There might be some conflict of interest, or just a will to disparage colleagues with different theses. Now, 92.229.60.29 (editing recently) is also active in similar topics, wherease from the same range 92.225.81.242 has also stalked my edits recently (me editing German Communist Party? Here it comes - he with his (factually dubious) change, too!). 92.225... is a certified range of Dodo19. 78.53.47.215 showed up at Party of Freedom, a page I've edited for years. Naturally, he defended a particular POV. Besides adding bogus warnings to my talk pageThe fact is, both POV and the manner of action - stalking and often mechanically undoing the perceived opponent's (since August 3, it's me!) edits, is exactly the modus operandi of Dodo19, the 78... range and a couple of times 92.... range. Even if those aren't one and the same person, following my edits on a daily basis must stop. Just a IP range block for some time might help, after all, he gave up his POV-pushing on SS matter and more recently in case Viktor Suvorov, after he saw that he won't succeed that easily. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 22:27, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Nice. First you attack Dodo19 by calling him a "single purpose account" and "troll" and when I point out that he is neither you respond by attacking me. I'm starting to see a pattern here in terms of how you deal with people who disagree with you. And if you're going to throw epithets like "former cabal pal" around, you might as well provide enough context that you're a "former cabal pal" as well. And in terms of the relevant content dispute, all of these "historians" are individuals associated with the far right in Germany, which Mrandsl was trying to hide.radek (talk) 02:03, 25 August 2010 (UTC) I am sorry, Miacek feels harassed by other editors editing "his" articles. After I clashed with him earlier this month, I decided to stop editing. Frankly, I did not see any chance for a productive cooperation due to fundamental differences in political opinion. I have come back though occasionally to check on Miacek and his pals, saving some links to edits I found interesting. Since he's been doing something similar, I didn't see anything wrong with that. As to edits by IPs, may I point out, that I am living in a major European city with a high percentage of the population qualifying as "far left" (from Miacek's POV). Incidentally there are also loads of Russians living here. Some of them might share the same ISP as I do and edit on the same articles as Miacek does. If that's it what's troubling him, I can't help it.--Dodo19 (talk) 01:46, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Kww and WLU Kww is abusing his admin tools to intimidate an editor trying to uphold our BLP standards in order to advance his personal Point of View. He and WLU are removing accurate and undisputed descriptors of William Dembski's career from the lead because they disagree with his positions on Intelligent Design. Apart from the clear BLP violation that these edits have with their potential to damage the man's career, there is also the very serious issue of abuse of admin tools, a subject which I have (quite unfortunately) am acutely aware. Freakshownerd (talk) 14:59, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I had a look and can't see Kww taking any recent admin action on that article - can you point directly to what you mean (with diffs or in the logs) --Errant Tmorton166 15:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC) He's using his tools to threaten to block me for maintaining BLP despite my requests that he take the issue to the BLPN noticeboard if he disagreed that removing content on a man's career to make them look bad was inappropriate and in violation of policy. That is an abuse of his tools. Freakshownerd (talk) 15:17, 24 August 2010 (UTC) The core of the matter is that this is a content dispute; Freakshownerd contends that the removal of the term "mathematician" from the lead sentence of the article is a BLP violation, and has thrice reverted to keep that term in the lead. Kww and others have pointed out (correctly, I believe) that this is not a BLP violation, and that focusing on the mathematician term is a violation of undue weight. Extensive references throughout the article make the subject's involvement in mathematics clear to the most casual observer, so there is no danger of the subject being considered a non-mathematician. In this particular case, there appears to be no abuse of the tools - no tools have been used in the debate. Freakshownerd, moreover, has repeatedly accused editors of bad faith, and has done so using personal attacks and gross incivility. The most recent block, yesterday, resulted in the removal of the editor's ability to edit their talk page following a pretty nasty tirade against myself and others after I attempted to explain why I declined to unblock. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 15:10, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Your description is inaccurate. He is removing that he is mathemetician, theologian, and philosopher (BASICALLY ALL THE INFO ON THE MAN'S CAREER) from the lead, despite that content being sourced to Time magazine and indisputable. He is doing this solely for the purpose of disparaging a living person who he happens to disagree with. Freakshownerd (talk) 15:17, 24 August 2010 (UTC) He also failed to notify Kww and WLU. I'll do that momentarily. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 15:10, 24 August 2010 (UTC) (edit conflict) Toddst already did that. Anyway, I don't see any misuse of administrator tools. Here are Kww's logs, talk page of the reporter, and the history of the article in question. - Donald Duck (talk) 15:20, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I notified both and was responding to the related discussion on my talkpage. You failed to note that you have been in dispute with me over similar attempts by you to push your personal point of view, and over Rd232's abuse of admin tools. Maybe you should leave this discusssion to the uninvolved? Freakshownerd (talk) 15:17, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Toddst1 notified Kww, and Freakshownerd and I Edit Conflicted in notifying WLU. Done. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 15:15, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I did briefly block Freakshownerd for an earlier edit-war on the article on August 12. I unblocked after it was pointed out that Freakshownerd had self-reverted as his final reversion on that day. Freakshownerd is edit-warring on the article, and is falsely portraying his edits as reverting BLP violations when, in fact, no BLP violations have been made. Personally, I consider Freakshownerd to be a hopeless case: no concept of what it takes to edit collegially, personal attacks whenever crossed, and basically a single-purpose POV account. I'm to WP:INVOLVED to do it, but I'd propose holding him to a 1RR limit on all articles.—Kww(talk) 15:18, 24 August 2010 (UTC) And I propose that you be stripped of you admin tools for abusing them, as you admit in an unfounded block, and for consistently abusing your tools in cases where you are involved. I know you have strong opinions on Intelligent Design, but that does not give you the right to disparage article subjects, especially living ones, or to abuse your administrative status to go after good faith editors seeking to uphold our most basic standards. Freakshownerd (talk) 15:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I believe an RFCU is in the works, as this person is almost certainly our old ANI-haranguing friend ChildofMidnight (talk · contribs). This savage lashing out at every single admin or user who takes an opposing opinion, especially when the discussion is in regards to his blocks and the perceived ganging-up, injustice of it all, etc...should be quite familiar to those who have had to deal with CoM in the past. Tarc (talk) 15:23, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I have no doubt that it is, and I hope checkuser will confirm it soon. In the mean time, this thread should be closed to avoid further time-wasting. (FWIW, I agree with F that the removed text at Dembski was better left there on NPOV grounds, though removal hardly constituted a BLP violation since the info was still in the article.) Rd232 15:28, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Both Freakshownerd (talk · contribs) and WLU (talk · contribs) - have overstepped WP:3RR on William Dembski today. Freakshownerd is claiming a WP:BLP exemption that I do not think applies as I am not able to direct anything libellous or really contentious. Codf1977 (talk) 15:25, 24 August 2010 (UTC) (filed at WP:AN3 here) Codf1977 (talk) 15:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC) The BLP policy is clear: Tone BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a disinterested tone, avoiding both understatement and overstatement. Articles should document in a non-partisan' manner what reliable secondary sources have published about the subject... Attack pages Further information: Misplaced Pages:Attack pages and Misplaced Pages:Criteria for speedy deletion#G10 Pages that are unsourced and negative in tone, and which appear to have been created to disparage the subject, should be deleted at once if there is no policy-compliant version to revert to; see below. Non-administrators should tag them {{db-attack}}. The idea that it's not a BLP violation to remove all the content about someone's career from the introduction of their article despite it being well sourced and indisputable is outrageous. Freakshownerd (talk) 15:30, 24 August 2010 (UTC) COM? Is that you COM? Only two days ago Freakshow was blocked by another admin as a sock of Grundle? Has anyone actually made a report? (there is nothing that I have seen that if a big enough issue to be a BLP revert exemption) Off2riorob (talk) 15:28, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I have been accused of being the socks of four or so different editors. It happens every time someone disagree with my positions. And Rd232, who abused his tools in another matter where he was involved and edit warring, has said he is engagede in an an off-wiki campaign to get checkusers to block me (ie. a witch hunt). The conduct of these abusive POV pushers and corrupt admins is truly outrageous. If someone thinks the edit is appropriate let's hear why instead of trying to attack and disparage me for upholding our BLP standards. Freakshownerd (talk) 15:32, 24 August 2010 (UTC) If you can't produce diffs or log entries showing that tools have been abused, you really need to stop crying abuse. —DoRD (talk) 15:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Also this is another case of crying abuse from today. Codf1977 (talk) 15:54, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Has a sockpuppet report been made by anyone? Off2riorob (talk) 15:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Grundle sprang to mind and prompted my investigation, which showed from the edit history it's clearly CoM (though it's getting to the point where F's comments alone could be enough). I prefer to keep the details private, since pointing out the socking errors will just make CoM's future socking more effective. (I'm not surprised F has been subject to previous sock allegations - there are various clues that it's not a first account.) Again, I'm awaiting checkuser result, hopefully today, and hopefully that will settle it. Rd232 15:40, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Have you made a proper report, citing your evidence for requesting checkuser? Nothing in your edit history, two days ago you blocked him because you were sure he was a sock of grundle and now your sure hes a sock of COM and no report nothing just a please check this user back door request to a checkuser, with the claim that you don't want the evidence to help future socking attempts, imo that is a rubbish claim for checkuser and you should make an open up front report as you are already accused of involvement and a poor block that was quickly unblocked by another admin. Off2riorob (talk) 15:43, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I've emailed detailed evidence to a checkuser and half a dozen admins. I won't quote from private emails, but I can say it's deemed easily sufficient for a checkuser. Rd232 15:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I have consistently been accused of BLP violations, and have consistently asked for clarification on which part of BLP I am breaking. I have yet to get a reply that helps me understand, though I have been accused of vandalism repeatedly. Note edits like this one I made, where I note his former position as a professor of theology. Dembski is primarily a proponent of the creationist pseudoscience intelligent design. I've never removed "all of the information on his career", in fact I have added the listing of degrees he has attained and noted them in the lead. That sentence, "Dembski holds advanced degrees in philosophy, theology, mathematics and statistics, and has written numerous books and articles on the topic of intelligent design and Christian apologetics"? I put that in. It's hard to accurately summarize Dembski's career, given the propensity of ID promoters to claim far more than is their due (Dembski amusingly claimed to have discovered a fourth law of thermodynamics); I think the best position to adopt is to list affiliations and qualifications, and leave it at that. He's certainly not a real philosopher, since he doesn't publish in philosophy journals or write on real philosophical topics. He's not really a theologian either, but he does write extensively on Christian apologetics. Much of this has played out in aggressive edit summaries rather than talk page discussions. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/complex 15:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC) You may be right, but Time described him in that way, and clearly the issue requires more than edit summary discussion. Rd232 15:58, 24 August 2010 (UTC) There should be enough behavioral evidence so this really should be at SPI if it isn't already, though I share Off2riorob's concerns in that I don't think the evidence needs to be kept private - given the whole blocking while involved and perceptions of fishing. Just looking at the circumstances of his editing, his commentary, and his style, I think he's a sock of CoM. It seems pretty obvious to me and CU isn't the be-all and end-all. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Agreed with Ncmvocalist & Rob. Open an SPI report - if the evidence really can't be public (and I'm not sure I like the idea of it being private...) then at least the CU is all official and documented. --Errant Tmorton166 15:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC) As a coincidence, Freakshownerd's account was created exactly 3 days after CoM's last edit. That should probably be taken into account. -- Atama頭 17:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC) That's part of the circumstances I was (vaguely) alluding to, though it would follow that I was a bit more sceptical and didn't interpret it as a coincidence in this case. :) Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:09, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I'm afraid you've boobed there, it's 19 March and 22 May. In fact Freakshownerd was created some weeks after User:Electroshoxcure's last edit (the previous CoM sock). Rd232 17:10, 24 August 2010 (UTC) This being another part of the circumstances. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:15, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I did goof with the dates, sorry about that. -- Atama頭 19:14, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Note - I have blocked User:Freakshownerd for 48h for obvious 3RR violation reported at WP:AN3. The issue regarding WLU ((link here) is more complex - would someone else like to take a second look at it for me please? Black Kite (t) (c) 17:47, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Given this edit, I would suggest removing Freakshownerd's ability to edit his/her Talk page. If it's only going to be used to lash out at and insult admins, there's no point it leaving it open during the block. Once the SPI results come back, we can determine if we need to extend or shorten the block, but there's no point letting the user spout vitriol in the meantime. — The Hand That Feeds You: 21:20, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Abuse Resolved – IP blocked by User:SarekOfVulcan HalfShadow 16:44, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Block evasion I submitted a complaint last week about abuse by Centpacrr and Jamie. I don't see it here anymore. I don't have my own computer and was using one at the place where I volunteer. I left a note saying I had to leave for the day, and couldn't continue the discussion, but I guess no one paid any attention to that. Can someone please tell me what the results of the complaint were? Thank you. 64.252.140.128 (talk) 15:11, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I certainly can. It's right here. I don't think you'll like it, though... TFOWR's left sock 15:15, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Oh my! It took a long time to read through all that. All the abusive comments by Centpacrr. And he got his pals to chime in too, Jusdafax said he was asked by Centpacrr to comment. I bet the others were too. I'm stunned at what horrible things people say about each other on Misplaced Pages. There is a lot I don't understand. Like why Eurytemora says we're the same person as someone from Stratford. New Britain is nowhere near Stratford. I also don't understand why someone would not believe me just because I don't have access to a computer and can only contribute when I'm here at the outreach center. Centpacrr said that "that he/she also only has access to the internet at the "church outreach center" and nowhere else, a truly preposterous contention" No, Centpacrr, YOU are preposterous. To think that everyone in the world has the same amount of money as you. Don't you read the newspapers? Don't you realize we're in a recession? Last week when I went for a walk in the park, I came across a tent set up by a homeless person. Yesterday I saw that the tent was burned to the ground. Everything that the homeless person owned had been burned. I saw what was left of a sweatshirt and a towel, but everything else was ashes. Centpacrr, you are no better than those thoughtless, heartless kids who burned that man's house down. You have no idea about how most people live and probably don't care either. Not everyone can afford the latest electronic gadgets. I do not have a computer. I use the one in the outreach center when I'm here. And your claim that "he/she has a record of making thousands of edits at all hours of the day and night and on every day of the week over at least three years" is a lie, just like all the lies you wrote on our page. The only contributions I have made to Misplaced Pages were removing the abuse you posted on our page and filing this complaint. I don't have a lot of time on my hands to waste writing on Misplaced Pages. I just don't understand why you would make up such outrageous lies or what you have against us. I'm angry, but I also feel sorry for you. You must have some serious problems to go around lying like that all the time. You seem to know a lot about lying - you wrote a lot about how to do it in your comments. Maybe if you got out more and made some positive contributions to society, you wouldn't be festering away in your fantasy world. Helping others would also make you feel better than bullying poor people. I truly feel sorry for you. I will add you to the prayer list at my church. I feel sorry for all the other people who believed Centpacrr's lies too. I really don't understand why you would believe all his exaggerated, dramatic claims. But I'm praying for you too. It's sad that nothing can be done to stop all this abuse.64.252.140.128 (talk) 16:35, 24 August 2010 (UTC) WP:CIVIL. Thank you. Hazardous Matt (talk) 16:40, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Actually, given that it's been effectively proven this is an IP sock, perhaps we could just nail him to a tree or something and be done with this little parade of stupid? HalfShadow 16:43, 24 August 2010 (UTC) The above postings of the community banned User:Techwriter2B (as anonymous IP sock 64.252.140.128) seem to provide a perfect demonstration of the telltale signs and issues inherent when a fabulist engages him/herself in the creation (and ongoing promulgation) of multiple, complicated fabrications of events, identities, and other unsupported, unverifiable "facts." For instance does this user really think that anyone believes his/her demonstrably false claims that: "I do not have a computer." or "I also don't understand why someone would not believe me just because I don't have access to a computer and can only contribute when I'm here at the outreach center." or "The only contributions I have made to Misplaced Pages were removing the abuse you posted on our page and filing this complaint." or especially "I don't have a lot of time on my hands to waste writing on Misplaced Pages." all of which he/she made in just one posting above? Really? (The detailed, verifiable evidence presented here demonstrates that each and every of of these "claims" is absolutely false.) As Scottish poet Sir Walter Scott cogently observed two centuries ago in Canto vi., Stanza 17, of Marmion, his epic 1808 poem about the 1513 Battle of Flodden Field: "Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive!" Yet again it's another case of Res ipsa loquitur. Centpacrr (talk) 21:17, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Possible illegal sig Resolved Would someone have a look at Hinata (talk · contribs)'s sig a little ways up this page, diff and let him know if it violates policy? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 18:18, 24 August 2010 (UTC) WP:Signatures specifically mentions that signatures should not contain blinking text; it's rather annoying. GiftigerWunsch 18:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Please do speak directly to editors prior to bringing an ANI thread. Had you visited their talk page, you would've seen that they've had messages from two different administrators since their last edit. –xeno 18:26, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Also, you are required to notify anyone you discuss here, but xeno has done that for you. The user has since changed their signature, and I've gone ahead and disabled the blink above. Cheers —DoRD (talk) 18:32, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Ah, dammit, you're right, didn't notify. Seemed like such a small thing, I figured a quick word from someone who knew policy better than me would suffice. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 19:12, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Not a huge deal. –xeno 19:14, 24 August 2010 (UTC) That must be why he asked me if I liked his new signature. It wasn't flashing for me, so his comment didn't make sense. Maybe there are indeed advantages to operating a vintage machine. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:30, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Vintage machine? Hinata talk 23:40, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Steam powered. HalfShadow 23:50, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Perhaps his steam-powered computer is still running this cranky "operating system". —DoRD (talk) 03:00, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Will someone now delete Ross Moody? Resolved There has been a PROD on Ross Moody since March 2010, with no objection by anybody. Please, can it be removed now? The subject is not Notable enough to be in WP. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 18:30, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I don't see a {{prod}} template on the article. Nakon 18:31, 24 August 2010 (UTC) It appears you've mistaken a maintenance tag for a prod. See WP:PROD. –xeno 18:31, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I just added a prod tag, since there wasn't much in the way of notability asserted.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:34, 24 August 2010 (UTC) A speedy tag was added, but I declined it because the article asserts importance by playing up his journalism. I still think it fails notability and left the proposed deletion tag alone. Unfortunately the article was created 11 days too early to be considered for WP:BLPPROD. -- Atama頭 20:40, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Official Languages Act vandalism The Official Languages Act has been a target of vandalism on August 11 3 times by User:198.103.109.141. It has been blocked once before in 2009 for 24 hours. What's particular about this is the location of the IP and the vandalism in question. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Official_Languages_Act_(Canada)&oldid=378446635 is such a example. It compares us Québecers to nazis by adding this at the start of the article: Quebec Nazi Act. The IP (followed by a simple IP whois) points the IP to Correctional Service of Canada's office in Ottawa. CBC and Radio-Canada have reported that vandalism. Canadian MP Denis Coderre said he was angered when this was revealed. What do you think we should do? I have sent a email to the foundation... --Zalgo (talk) 19:01, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Interesting. The Correctional service has begun an investigation according to the CBC. I suspect whoever made the vandalism will be reprimanded by their employer. From an administrative perspective, there is not much we can or should do at this point. But, I will watchlist the article in case there is further nonsense as a result of this news story. Resolute 19:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC) As an aside, I am rather amused that Coderre is calling for an inquiry into how the page was altered. That will be the shortest inquiry in history. "Official findings: They clicked 'edit'." Resolute 19:20, 24 August 2010 (UTC) It's a good thing nobody at a school in Quebec has ever vandalized wikipedia. We might have to get the PM involved. :p Toddst1 (talk) 19:40, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I often thought that someone setting up an open proxy through Quebec would cause chaos... Blood Red Sandman 19:48, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Just noting that it's Official Languages Act (Canada) instead. The vandalism continued a bit; I've put it on pending changes for now. -- zzuuzz 20:03, 24 August 2010 (UTC) One of the posters of comments to the newspaper article reporting this article, calling himself BostonWalker posted "Mr. Coderre, I just edited your Misplaced Pages page." (Denis Coderre is the MP who noticed it & entered the complaint.) And so he did; I have reverted the vandalism and indef blocked the Misplaced Pages editor, who has made no other contributions. (and semiprotected his page for a few days) DGG ( talk ) 21:50, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Troubles sanctions - seeking community clarification I'm seeking some clarification on the {{Troubles restriction}} template (maybe the wrong furum but not sure where to post) and the sanctions arising from it. This partly arising from a request for clarification that I made to ArbCom a few months back. That produced the surprising response (to me and I'm sure others) that this template, and what it purports, is not in fact an ArbCom ruling. Now, given its wide-spread use, it may have community sanction status - but if so can we clarify that? Also, though not wanting to forum shop, can I ask for comment here on a proposal to put Republic of Ireland under this restriction as "Troubles-related". That would seem to me as being as widely cast a net as putting United Kingdom under the same sanction, particularly as there have been no Northern Ireland or Troubles-related incidents on the article in memory. --RA (talk) 22:19, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Posting cross-links here from the relevant Wikiprojects. --RA (talk) 22:20, 24 August 2010 (UTC) The 1RR should be restricted to articles specifically about the troubles, not country articles or anything that mentions them. I remember someone mentioned a year or so ago about an article on someone who died long before the troubles should be considered as under the restrictions too. Such a serious rule which can easily catch editors unaware out and result in potential blocks should be restricted to specific pages and clearly labelled both on the talk page and on the edit page of the article for all to see. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:45, 24 August 2010 (UTC) To quote "All articles related to The Troubles, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland". At different times we have different groups involved over multiple articles. At the moment it appears to be British nationalism. Best to apply it in this case where the edits relate in any way to the history or the status of the state etc. Its a good calming measure. --Snowded 03:30, 25 August 2010 (UTC) IP is overusing "reqphoto" A overactive user is adding the reqphoto" template to multiple pages, every minute, effecting hundreds of pages. Some articles don't have images, but many do. I'm assuming this is a bot, just blindly going along, based on a category. --Rob (talk) 02:03, 25 August 2010 (UTC) You should probably specify the user's name, so someone can check out their editing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:07, 25 August 2010 (UTC) It's 137.186.233.209 (talk · contribs). Looie496 (talk) 02:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC) That does appear to be a bot, whether unauthorized or just not logged in. It's looping alphabetically over categories and then moving to a new category. Really, it ought to be blocked until there's some explanation. — Gavia immer (talk) 03:08, 25 August 2010 (UTC) I've blocked the account. I'm going to bed, though, anyone is free to unblock if they see fit. TNXMan 03:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC) I've gone ahead and done the cleanup work. Surely if this was something we wanted done, re-doing it won't take much effort... AFTER it's gone through WP:BRFA. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 03:35, 25 August 2010 (UTC) I watch BMO Centre which I created. The IP properly requested a photo for this article, but that useful tag was undone by Shirik. I have now looked through many of the photo requests made by the IP and it seems that 95% of them were properly requested. I don't see any evidence that the IP was "looping alphabetically over categories and then moving to a new category" as stated by Gavia immer. Can you point to a dif that demonstrates that behaviour? It appears to me that the IP was acting properly to tag articles that needed photos, and that it was Shirik who was just "blindly going along" undoing a lot of good work. Inniverse (talk) 04:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Further Comment: Geolocate puts the IP in Calgary, Alberta - the same city as the location for the photo requests. It doesn't look like a bot to me. It looks like the anonymous editor was "photo request" tagging articles about his/her home town. Inniverse (talk) 05:02, 25 August 2010 (UTC) I also took a look as an uninvolved person, and these are all Alberta articles. Nothing wrong with the edits. Recommend Shirik revert his unnecessary reverts and the IP be unblocked. Did anyone think to talk to the IP before taking this to ANI? That is how things go around here. Talk first, then ANI. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC) (edit conflict)As to why I think it was a bot: three edits a minute (which I could easily do manually) over a span of many hours (which no human could or would). As to why I think it was looping over categories: check the contributions; they are doing individual groups of edits in alphabetical order, then starting another group of edits in alphabetical order. I suppose this could be a manually-assisted tool; in that case, they need only give an explanation to be unblocked. Also, I agree with you that they are likely an editor with a direct interest in Canadian topics, since they have often created talk pages with a WikiProject Canada tag on them. Also, the editor's talk page does have an outstanding request to discuss their edits, though it appears it was left shortly before the ANI thread was started. — Gavia immer (talk) 05:11, 25 August 2010 (UTC) @Gavia immer: It could also be someone opening a crapload of tabs and pasting in the template and hitting save...rinse, lather, repeat. That could be done manually and quite quickly if someone wanted to. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:15, 25 August 2010 (UTC) I do know all the tricks to make manual edits efficiently. The IP has a sustained edit rate of not less than two edits per minute from 16:42 UTC - 19:09 UTC . It is not reasonable to assume that the editor was just opening a bunch of tabs for that length of time. — Gavia immer (talk) 05:23, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Around here, nothing would surprise me, seriously. But I honestly don't see (be them bot, tool, or manual) these being vandalism edits. They are just requesting a photo, what is the harm in that? - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:28, 25 August 2010 (UTC) I have not said "vandalism", personally. However, if other editors say their edits were disruptive, they probably were disruptive, and avoiding disruption is one of the reasons that we require approval for bots doing things like that. — Gavia immer (talk) 05:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Seeking assistance from Admin to move article / something (user?) is blocked Hello - Not clear on what's happening or what changed since last contribution to Misplaced Pages, but now this user is (apparently) blocked...hmmm. Just created a new article which is notable: http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Johncmorley/CamboFest,_Cambodia_Film_Festival Can an admin here pls kindly handle its move to the main space? Thanks, JCM —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johncmorley (talk • contribs) 03:42, 25 August 2010 (UTC) User:Amp873 Amp873 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) I am a bit at a loss as to what to do with this user. I don't want to get involved in this anymore, mostly because I am having trouble believing this user is editing in good faith: The user is brand new to Misplaced Pages, but has extensively edit warred already. Amp's second edit was a revert. This includes, in his/her barely 100 edits and 4 days, about half a dozen reverts to Conscription (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and three reverts to United States (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). The user has edited with an agenda, which is why the reversions have been necessary, because people have routinely been reverting this user. For example, as I detailed on User talk:Amp873, routinely referring to the American/Indian wars as a "gruesome genocide" and the European colonization of America as an "invasion", and conscription as sexism, discrimination, and slavery. Misleading edit summaries: And of course, a demand on my talk page: and immediate assumption of bad faith which showed that the user has no intentions of paying attention to my common sense uw-npov template on his/her talk page After my talk page response, Amp simply had the courtesy to make another revert with a misleading edit summary and the same NPOV problems. It's obviously s/he will just ignore anything I say. It would be nice if another experienced editor or administrator could respond to the issues on Amp's talk page. Magog the Ogre (talk) 04:56, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Update: user removed this thread. Magog the Ogre (talk) 05:21, 25 August 2010 (UTC) I note that Magog has notified Amp873 of this discussion and the user has blanked their talk page afterwards. I have placed an "only warning" for removing this discussion. I believe this user needs a block as they are not contributing in a collegial manner, are being disruptive, assuming bad faith, leaving false edit summaries, among other problems. Kindzmarauli (talk) 06:28, 25 August 2010 (UTC) A block is absolutely called for, at the very least. Removing a thread about oneself from ANI?! What could exhibit more contempt for the process by which we work together here? We don't need editors like this.  – OhioStandard (talk) 07:11, 25 August 2010 (UTC) They were up to something like 20RR on Conscription, combined with disrupting ANI by removing the thread here... I have blocked for 48 hrs. I pointed them to specific policies and the Pillars. I would like to encourage others to do things like that, on encountering problematic new users, as exposure to our policies and discussion may help head them off from having to be blocked... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:24, 25 August 2010 (UTC) User:MZMcBride re-opening his closed RfA Resolved – Wrong venue. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 05:41, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Nihonjoe just closed MZMcBride's most recent RfA as NOTNOW because it's obviously not happening. But now MZMcBride is going through, un-closing it and adding it back to the list of current RfAs. Access Denied contribs editor review 05:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC) This seems like an unwise action for MZM to take, but would perhaps be best dealt with via BN. →ROUX ₪ 05:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Agreed, this is nothing that admins would probably walk into. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 05:37, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Nihonjoe is a crat so it belongs elsewhere. This will handle itself, no need for drama. Shadowjams (talk) 05:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Please see Misplaced Pages:Bureaucrats' noticeboard#Early closure of RfAs for a more appropriate venue. -- Avi (talk) 05:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC) User:68.236.155.129 User talk:68.236.155.129 has been adding WP:POV material to Akahi Nui. Normally, I'd just report him to WP:ANI, but he's making threats and disputes about Arbcomm and such so I'm not sure how to proceed. If someone could check it out I'd appreciate it. Falcon8765 07:10, 25 August 2010 (UTC) I would like to add my talk page, where the said user makes references to "outside remidies" the user also leaves his/her e-mail address: spendrick@hotmail.com Df747jet (talk) 07:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Admin GorillaWarrior has applied the loving bananna hug of correction to the IP for a month. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:30, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Block request to Cameron Scott I request to block the user Cameron Scott because he keeps deleting uw-npa1 from his talk page for 8 times and cleared all his notices for 2 times, resulting a blank talk page. I stated WP:RPA for several times but he didn't listen. Now all the notices were deleted by him. I post uw-npa1 because he used bad altitude in Talk:Nokia C6 and . Regards, Claudeemann --ZirconiumTwice (talk) 07:41, 25 August 2010 (UTC) I will investigate the general behavior, but, as a rule, people are always allowed to remove warnings or comments on their talk page. Declined unblock requests are pretty much the only exception. It's assumed that if someone has removed it, they are responsible for having read the comment and acknowledged its receipt. Please come see an administrator sooner in the future, if something like this starts... Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC) I am not seeing them making abusive behavior. Can you list the particular diffs which you believed were personal attacks? The editorial discussion on Nokia C6 and its talk page should be more constructive, but I don't see that he's done anything wrong under our policies. Can you please try to engage with him cooperatively? Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC) But he deleted other notices, too. --ZirconiumTwice (talk) 07:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC) He is allowed to do that. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

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