Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:20, 9 September 2010

Norbert Basil MacLean III

Norbert Basil MacLean III (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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Delete -- Article does not satisfy WP:BASIC or WP:ANYBIO criteria. (I have an interest in the article in that I have undertaken considerable tagging, discussion, and editing of article in an effort to clean it up.) Discussion:

• BLP himself (Mr. MacLean) has objected to the article and states his contributions to public policy & debate are quite minor. (See Talk pages). To this, I quite agree, and I commend him for his modesty. His service with the military was limited in time and while he received appropriate recognition as a lower enlisted sailor (actually the recognition he received was typical in our professional military), his service was marred by a court-martial in which he plead guilty to writing bad checks.
• Subsequently (9 years later) he instituted litigation to reopen his court-martial case, but did not succeed in having his conviction overturned. These efforts were reported upon by various newspapers, but the reporting had little, if any, follow-up. (He did, it seems, have some administrative success in having his court-martial conviction "mitigated", but records of his efforts in the military and civilian courts remained.) BLP's efforts in the federal courts became the basis for this article, but really represent a history of futile court filings.
• He did "lobby" his Congressional representative to have the law changed which would have (not in his case) allowed for a final appeal to the US Supreme Court. This proposed legislation is now the subject of a separate Misplaced Pages article, which will, with proper editing, properly discuss the subject. But his own "lobbying" with Congress was basically citizen advocacy. (He did write a preface to a congressional report, but this preface has not been provided as a resource.)
• In any event, as BLP's own article evolved over the years, it grew to over 80,000 bytes with all sorts of images and lengthly POV discussions. Efforts to edit the article were successful to an extent, and it is now about 20k in length. (The editing took place after I and others undertook tagging and discussion of its many flaws.) It was a textbook case of WP:PUFF / WP:LARD. More seriously, the article was polluted with POV edits. Still, despite much editing, much non-notable info remains today.
• As mentioned, BLP himself (user:Norbert3) wants the article removed and he has undertaken edits in other articles to remove non-notable references to himself. This effort by BLP seems to have started after I proposed inclusion of information related to his litigation efforts on behalf of prisoners incarcerated in the State of California prison system. I pointed out several lawsuits that he filed, all of which are available for viewing in public records. To be clear and to provide proper background, I referenced that BLP himself was twice convicted of felonies in the California Superior Court for the County of San Diego.
  • These convictions are available for viewing as public records. (I do not know of any orders sealing his records. Sealing such records is rarely done. It is possible that BLP received a Certificate of Rehabilitation from the State of California, but he would have had to resided in the state for over 5 years after he was released from parole. His move to Australia may have disqualified him from this administrative procedure. It is also possible that he had his records expunged, but the fact that they are available for public viewing makes this problematic.) The over riding point is that BLP (or actually the editor who has sponsored and supported his article) cannot have it both ways. That is, if BLP is notable for having fought for service members legal rights (and such litigation or advocacy arose because of his own experience), then his earlier effort on behalf of prisoners should be notable as well, and should include his own experience. In this regard, WP:PERP may be the appropriate guideline.
• Now Mr. MacLean has recently undertaken a project in Australia to honor the remaining living Aussie veterans of WWII. This is in connection with his membership in the RSL. He is an officeholder in a sub-branch of the RSL. (The RSL has a national headquarters, branches in the various states, and then various sub-branches in cities or neighborhoods.) And he has received some limited recognition and commendation for this, including a letter from QEII. However, I submit that this effort is too recent and too minor to include in Misplaced Pages. S. Rich (talk) 16:12, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
• Neutral - I, having been one of the editors assisting with the article's issues, have found that WP:RS and WP:N/WP:BLP have been mostly satisfied. I am moved to being neutral because the BPL (Norber MacLean III) is wanting the article to be removed. I know that in the past that this alone can't have an article removed. We are hoping for good consensus in regards to this and opinions on the articles inclusion.

I have the greatest respect for Pmedema (despite his having sent me off on a wild goose chase) and his input is most welcome. Query, though, how do we deal with BLP's litigation on behalf of California inmates? Omitting it hardly seems proper when the whole basis of his efforts on behalf of service member arose because of his own court-martial conviction. Do we keep one WP:RGW section/effort because it had some un-measurable effect, but omit the other? (My rhetorical question is posed for others, not necessarily Pmedema to address.)--S. Rich (talk) 17:48, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Keep It - Who cares what this guy wants? (Assuming it really is 'him' and not someone playing games.)

• I am sure that Charles Mansion or Adolf Hitler and other criminals would not want Misplaced Pages articles about them, but so what?

• This guy is a homosexual who got kicked out of the service and has spent years trying to hide or litigate away his record.

• PACER records and the records from the National Personnel Records Center are all public documents and are first-rate sources. The same is true of the court records in California or whatever the hell he is from.

• What I see happening here is an example of the Streisand effect and truely this guy is wasting his time trying to delete history.

• If he didn't want his name in the paper, or on the internet, then he probably should not have been a homosexual and he probably should not have gotten involved in all that BS litigation, etc. But facts are facts. It would not surprise me to find that someone servicemember with access to personnel records will get ahold of this guy's stuff and put it on some file sharing site for all to see and obtain.

• As an attorney, I can tell you straight up that there is NO WAY to get an expunction of records from an offense that one has been convicted of. No way, Jose. Otherwise, what would be the point in convicting someone if they can just turn around and delete the records and pretend that they are normal citizens? This fool even has his only blog in which he talks about this stuff.

http://www.blogger.com/profile/11541747908998572920

• None of his criminal records from San Diego have been expunged since they are still in the NCIS (I just checked), and they are also still in the San Diego DA's system (I just checked). California Penal Code section 1203.4 controls over whether or not someone can get records expunged. All that happens is that the conviction is set aside (upon successful complete of probation), so the guy can claim that he/she was never convicted of a felony. But the court records, arrest records, etc., are all still there and available.

• This guy seems like a flake and a deadbeat and his 'request' should be ignored. Not to mention a convicted felon. Republic of Texas (talk) 22:20, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

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