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Proposal for new lede

Communist regimes have been accused of the largest mass killings in history, and the ideology has been described as capable of more violence than other regime type due to the changes they have attempted to bring about with the forceful mass dispossession of property from the population. Communism has been described as "the deadliest ideology in human history" and it has resulted in the murders of an estimated 100 million people. This article discusses mass killings under regimes that are commonly labeled Communist. It includes both intentional killings and those for which regime intent is disputed. Scholars place various level of blame for the deaths on the governments.

This proposal got lost in the chatter above so i am reposting it here. Lets hear your objections within policy please mark nutley (talk) 12:44, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

The "worst" mass killings? That's a pretty clear WP:NPOV violation. In addition, is the force of your evidence so strong that you can prove that they were the most "violent"? It seems more likely the sources available will only allow for conjecture (and disagreement), which should be clearly stated in the lede. How exactly do you define violence here, are we simply referring to death tolls? Also, levels of "blame" should be rephrased: try something like "The actual figures for killings attributed to communist regimes are subject to controversy". GiftigerWunsch 12:58, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

The source says worst mass killings. The source says most violent. I`m not defining violence i am using what the sources say per wp:v If anyone has a source which says communism did not commit the worst mass killings in history lets see it mark nutley (talk) 13:01, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

The source can claim that they are the "worst", but we have two issues with that: firstly, "worst" is subjective; use a more concrete, more factual, and more neutral term. Secondly, unless it has very concrete, uncontested evidence backing up these claims, the closest that can be said is that historians believe them to have the highest death tolls (or whatever standard we're using for "worst"). And with regards to the most violent; the source saying that they were the most violent is meaningless unless they explain what is meant by that, in which case it can be clarified in the article. We shouldn't use fuzzy terms like "violent" with regards to mass killings: are we quantifying this term, as a death toll, or qualifying it as how "violent" their deaths were? GiftigerWunsch 13:07, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Giftiger Wunsch. It's a lede littered with POV/OR. The article rightly contains mainstream material disputing the implications of your lede suggestion.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 13:11, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

In connection to the proposed lede Giftiger wunsch and VsevolodKrolikov adequately express my thoughts. Fifelfoo (talk) 13:14, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Changed it a bit, there is no wp:or in the proposal btw mark nutley (talk) 13:19, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

• This proposal seems to just be replacing a neutral, informative lead with an entirely negative one with WP:NPOV issues and WP:LABELs, and still some potential OR issues (and bad grammar, but that can be fixed). GiftigerWunsch 13:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

We have three editors on here who keep saying the lede needs changing. I do not see how this is negative, we use what the sources say. I do not see any labels being chucked in either, please give an alternate wording for what you think is not NPOV mark nutley (talk) 13:26, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Characterising the deaths as "murders" is OR/POV. What marknutley seems not to grasp is that views such as communism is "the deadliest ideology in human history" are disputed by mainstream academics, and as such are not suitable for bald statement in a lede. It doesn't matter what any of us think, it's what the reliable literature says, and what it says without us manipulating or misrepresenting it. The old lede is much better than this proposal.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 13:29, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) There are clearly a large number of sources being used on this article, and the article is a decent length, overall making it difficult to adequately sum up the article in the lead. I haven't looked at the sources in any great detail and I take little or no interest in this subject, I am simply trying to aide in consensus building here. The lead is entirely negative, claiming that the communist regimes are the worst, using qualitative language and labelling them as the "worst" and selectively quoting material referring to them as "the deadliest ideology", taking no other material into account and inaccurately representing the collection of sources (I haven't read them myself, but looking at the discussion here, I can see that much) GiftigerWunsch 13:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

This is really quite simple, show a source which says there were worse regime types who commited more murders. Until then we use what we have wp:v verifiability not truth. The sources used say exactly what is in the proposal there is not wp:or not does it breach wp:npov as it is widly accepted from the amount of sources that communism has killed more people than any other regime type mark nutley (talk) 13:33, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Exactly; verifiability: can you show how your sources are verifying these claims? All we can say for sure is that they're making the claims. GiftigerWunsch 13:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Mark, comparing sources to decide which one is worse is original research. Perhaps wikipedia is not the venue for what you want to say about communism - you might want to get published in the literature instead.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 13:36, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Don`t be daft Giftiger, wiki does not work that way and you know it, i`m not going to second guess reliable sources and nor should you. All the sources used here are wp:rs and the most are academic sources, that`s what wp:v is we use a source which is verifiable, we do not look at how the source reached it`s conclusions as that would be OR mark nutley (talk) 13:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Mark, that's exactly how wikipedia works. We can hardly call sources verifiable if we can't verify the claims they make. If they are reliable sources which we can verify, they will provide evidence, not just unsupported claims. GiftigerWunsch 13:41, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Erm, no. A source is verifiable by going out and looking at a book or journal or newspaper. How am i meant to verify how a researcher comes to his conclusions? Or an author? We use as a source what they write, we don`t go through their work to look for mistakes. mark nutley (talk) 13:46, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

You verify it by looking at the evidence they've presented to make their conclusions, as I just explained. You also check other references to see if there is dispute in the field; you are clearly just selectively reading the sources which agree with your POV and using it to justify colouring the lede. GiftigerWunsch 13:48, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with you, we use what the sources say thats it. There is of course dispute within the field over the amount of dead, which is why my proposal says an estimated 100 million dead. It does not give an exact number does it. Sorry but the sources say what they say, and they say an estimated `100 million dead under communist regimes, and those are all reliable sources. mark nutley (talk) 13:54, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

As I'm sure you're aware, since you've read my above comments, it's not the 100,000,000 figure that I'm disputing. GiftigerWunsch 13:55, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Do me a favour and point out what you think is actually wrong with the proposal? I have already changed it and am quite willing to do so again, make a suggestion mark nutley (talk) 13:57, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Mark, you should read what policy says about misrepresenting academic consensus. Individual reliable sources are not treated as gospel in wikipedia.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 13:58, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

The victims of Communism website used in the proposal is not a reliable source. Notice that their home page presents a documentary about Communism by Glenn Beck. The best approach is to read the mainstream literature and see what it says, rather than seek confirmation of ones opinions in sources. TFD (talk) 14:22, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I`m not misrepresenting anything.Removed accusation of personal attack which may itself be considered a personal attack. Comment on content, not other editors. GiftigerWunsch 14:47, 8 September 2010 (UTC) All the sources meet wp:rs if you don`t like it the RSN board is thataway mark nutley (talk) 14:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Given that all other editors have disagreed with your use of sources for your proposed lede, it would be up to you to appeal to RSN for extra input. The general consensus, such as it is, is that your proposal is inappropriate.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 14:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

No, all the sources are fine as laid out in wp:rs if you think they are not take it to the rsn board. If all you are going to write is WP:IDONTLIKEIT and not actually make any suggestions then why are you bothering to comment at all? mark nutley (talk) 14:55, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Frankly mark nutley, you're the only individual who has contributed to this thread without citing policy; everyone else has made policy-based arguments as to why your lede is inappropriate. Consensus is clearly against your proposal, thus far. GiftigerWunsch 15:00, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Mark, our response is pretty clear - it's worse than the old lede and should not replace it. There is a difference between an RS and academic consensus - the latter is necessary for something to be stated so baldly in the lede. In addition, as TFD points out, the victims of communism website cannot be considered to be RS. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 15:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC).

Indeed; you appear to be making these statements as facts, and they are by no means proven facts, nor do your references prove otherwise. Unless you can demonstrate that there is general academic consensus in favour of what you've written in the lede, we must give equal weight to all mainstream theories, and not bias the lede in such a way. GiftigerWunsch 15:18, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing in policy which says i need demonstrate that there is general academic consensus in favour of anything. Why not show me your academic consensus which says my sources are wrong? mark nutley (talk) 15:21, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Mark, you're just repeating the same thing over and over and refusing to listen to policy-based arguments; please read up on the relevant policies already indicated here and on your talk page, and reconsider your proposal having understood those policies and our arguments. Bear in mind that "you're wrong" is not an argument, only policy-based arguments will be considered in determining consensus. GiftigerWunsch 15:26, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I am stating policy, the sources meet wp:rs and wp:v that is policy. You have asked me to demonstrate that there is general academic consensus in favour of what you've written there is nothing in policy which says i have to, if there is point it out. I would like to see your policy based argument against this, not that you know stuff. Show me were it is wrong, suggest an alternative wording not just i don`t like what you`ve written. mark nutley (talk) 15:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

You've already been directed to WP:FRINGE, Misplaced Pages:RS/AC#Academic_consensus, and WP:UNDUE, and consensus is clearly rejecting your proposal. GiftigerWunsch 15:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Which part of the proposal is undue then? It certainly is not fringe, unless you have a source which says it is of course, and still waiting on your source which says there is an academic consensus which says communist regimes have not committed mass killings. As stated, there is nothing in policy which says i have to provide a source proving academic consensus on anything so drop that one please. Why not just suggest some alternative wording? mark nutley (talk) 15:39, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You're completely mis-stating everything we've said to the point that your contributions to this discussion are becoming unconstructive. Please quote when anyone has claimed that communist regimes have not been involved in mass killings. We are saying, per WP:RS/AC, you cannot express the opinions of a few sources as fact unless there is general academic consensus to support that, and no opposing theories. All mainstream theories must be given equal weight per WP:UNDUE. GiftigerWunsch 15:43, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Were am i stating anything as fact? Or claiming there is a consensus for what the sources are saying? I`m not. I have asked you loads of times now, suggest alternate wording, why is that so difficult? It`s how were meant to do things mate. mark nutley (talk) 15:48, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Your lede is NOT NPOV. It does NOT take into account the mutliple academic disputes with the assertions your lede suggests to be factual. BigK HeX (talk) 16:12, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the current lede reads more like an editorial disclaimer rather than a summary of the article. It really should be rewritten. --Martin (talk) 20:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that any attempt to write something reasonable cause vehement objection of one or another party. If you believe you are able to propose something, please do that. Another option is to try to do that together: taking into account that you and I have quite opposite POVs, although are able to listen each other's arguments, that may lead to something useful.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:18, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Paul, I don't think I can agree with the premise that we necessarily have "opposite POVs", but I do agree that we can work together. The following I propose as a summary of the article:

The killing of a large numbers of non-combatants has occurred in certain countries that have declared themselves to be communist states. A number of causes have been proposed by various scholars as to the causes for this phenomenon, ranging from direct linkage to ideology to failure of the rule of law, economic conditions or other factors. Countries where mass killings have been documented to have occurred are the Soviet Union, People's Republic of China, Cambodia and others. A number of cases of mass killings have caused debate and dissent amongst academics. Some countries have legislated and prosecuted perpetrators of these mass killings.

--Martin (talk) 16:42, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I stressed the fact that we frequently have quite different POV, because that may help to rule out possible accusations in non-neutrality of jointly proposed text. Obviously, that does not mean our POVs are always opposite. For instance, our understanding of what the words "neutrality" or "reliable source" mean fully coincide.

One way or the another, I was right expecting that you will propose a very reasonable piece of text. Interestingly, the draft proposed by you closely resembles the text proposed by me earlier,

"Intentional killing of large numbers of noncombatants, as a rule, for belonging to a particular social group, occurred in the Soviet Union under Stalin, in the People's Republic of China under Mao, and in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, and on a smaller scale in North Korea, Vietnam, and some Eastern European and African countries that declared adherence to a Communist doctrine. These killings, that took place mostly during civil wars, mass elimination of political opponents, mass terror campaigns, or land reforms may fit a definition of mass murder, democide, politicide, "classicide", "crimes against humanity", or loosely defined genocide. Nevertheless, main causes of excess preventable deaths under Communist rule were not murders or executions but war, famine and disease. Although some scholars add a considerable part of these deaths to a total democide or genocide death toll, the validity of such an approach is not accepted by others."

and which has been reverted later.

May be we should try to think how to combine these two texts together?--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:09, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Although Martintg's lead is written in less alarming language than other proposals, it still suffers from the same problems. It presupposes that there is a connection between Communism and mass killings (which it describes as a "phenomenon"), and then indicates that there is a debate about what the connection is, giving priority to a "direct linkage to ideology". A neutral lead would indicate who has made the connection and the degree of acceptance of their theories. Incidentally no country has ever declared itself to be a communist state. TFD (talk) 17:57, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

You mix "declared itself to be a communist state" and "declared adherence to a Communist doctrine" (more precisely, "to one or another form of a Communist doctrine"). For example the USSR never declared itself to be Communist, however it was declared that building of Communism was its ultimate goal. Incidentally, "Communist state" is an oxymoron: according to Lenin (who saw state primarily as a tool helping a ruling class to oppress other classes), state will be abolished in the Communist society (as a result of formation of a classless society).

In any event, if you think Martintg's lead is written in less alarming language, you recognise it is a step forward. Please, explain what should be included/changed there. It would be good if you proposed some concrete text.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:14, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

(out) Compare with similar articles about theories:

• The Protestant Work Ethic... is a concept... attributable to the work of Max Weber. It is based upon the notion....
• Intelligent design is the proposition that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause...."

We do not see these articles begin:

• Sociologists disagree about why Protestant countries were so successful.
• Scientists argue about why living beings show evidence of design.

The lead should indicate who has made the connection, what connection they have made and the degree of acceptance of their theories. If we assume that there is a connecion which historians seek to explain then we are inserting a bias into the article.

TFD (talk) 18:46, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Not completely correct. The examples provided by you discuss some single concept. By contrast, mass killings by Communist is not a single concept. Rummel discusses democide in a context of totalitarianism, not only Communism (his obsession with Communism seems to stem from his wrong estimates of the number of victims, and is exacerbated by his libertarian political views), Lemkin tried to expand his concept of genocide, which was developed to describe Nazi crimes, on Communism, Harff, or Wayman and Tago discuss a connection between autoritarianism (not even totalitarianism) and mass killings, Watson sees genocidal roots in the very Marx's doctrine, whereas other scholars note intrinsically non-genocidal nature of Marxism. In addition, many scholars simply avoid any generalisations and theorising at all, preferring to focus of some particular regime separately (or group them according to some other traits, e.g. Cambodia + Indonesia, Cambodia + Warsaw ghetto, etc). Therefore, I simply don't understand how your proposal can be implemented.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:45, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

break

The concepts of genocide, democide and mass killings by authoritarian regimes are not types of "mass killings under Communist regimes", but may occur under other types of regimes as well. There is only one major theory that sees Communist ideology as the cause of mass killings, and that is found in the writings of Furet, Courtois, Rummel and Nolte. Watson's theory has gained no following. TFD (talk) 21:10, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

...that is why I simply wrote "These killings, that took place mostly during civil wars, mass elimination of political opponents, mass terror campaigns, or land reforms may fit a definition of mass murder, democide, politicide, "classicide", "crimes against humanity", or loosely defined genocide," thus leaving the question of connection between these events and the Communist doctrine beyond the scope.

In connection to that, did I understand you correct that the major your objection is caused by the words: "A number of causes have been proposed by various scholars as to the causes for this phenomenon"? If yes, I have to agree that that is the most questionable part of the Martin's text: by writing that he assumes that all these events are generally considered as a same phenomenon, or similar phenomena caused by the same reason/combination of reasons. I agree that that is hardly a majority POV.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:50, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I did write "A number of causes have been proposed by various scholars as to the causes for this phenomenon", so I can't see why you would suggest that I assumed this "caused by the same reason/combination of reasons", and by "phenomenon" I meant "mass killings", which I would suggest is a term that spans mass murder, democide, politicide, "classicide", or loosely defined genocide. But taking onboard your comments and merged some elements of your proposed lede:

The killing of a large numbers of non-combatants has occurred in certain states that have declared adherence to some form of Communist doctrine. Mass killings have been documented to have occurred in the Soviet Union under Stalin, in the People's Republic of China under Mao, and in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, and on a smaller scale in North Korea, Vietnam, and some Eastern European and African countries. These killings, that took place during civil wars, mass elimination of political opponents, mass terror campaigns, or land reforms may fit a definition of mass murder, democide, politicide, "classicide", "crimes against humanity", or loosely defined genocide. A number of causes for these killings have been proposed by various scholars, ranging from direct linkage to ideology to failure of the rule of law, economic conditions or other factors. A number of cases of mass killings have caused debate and dissent amongst academics. Some countries have legislated and prosecuted perpetrators of these mass killings.

--Martin (talk) 09:36, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I reckon Martins proposal is fine as is myself mark nutley (talk) 23:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Martintg, you assume that there is a phenomenon that scholars seek to explain. In fact few scholars see a phenomenon and therefore nothing to explain. In fact the literature drawing a connection has had little if any attention in mainstream scholarship. TFD (talk) 13:42, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree. This proposal suffers the same non-NPOV problems, in suggesting that there IS necessarily a cause, when these theories are not even generally accepted by academics. This is a minority POV article, yet people keep trying to write it as if we're discussing the Laws of Gravitation. BigK HeX (talk) 14:46, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Of course, every mass killing had a cause. The question is if the cause was common.

Did I understand correct that the only major objections is again caused by the phrase: "A number of causes have been proposed by various scholars as to the causes for these killings..."? If yes, I again have to agree. This phrase still implies that all these events had some common cause (or their combination), and that majority of mainstream scholars try to find these causes. In actuality, only few scholars tried to find some commonality between different Communist mass killings, preferring to study some concrete case, or group these events according to other traits.

Regarding commonality, I think the words "as a rule, for belonging to some particular social group", which were present in my version, should be in the lede, because that reflects the position of arguably the only scholar (Semelin) whose concept of "classicide" directly links to Communist (and not to others) mass killings. The words about "war, famine and disease" should also be there, because the article discusses not only killings from the commonsensual point of view (executions, murders), but famine and deportation deaths.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:08, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I am referring to a common cause, but, IMO, removing that line still does little to move towards writing the article explicitly from the minority POV perspective, as is required by the sourcing available on the topic. BigK HeX (talk) 15:12, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

We should avoid collapsing the two issues of whether there is a recognised phenomenon - that there were large scale killings in leading communist states - with whether these killings are attributed in the literature to something in the logic of communism in principle or practice. The article seeks to cover both sides of that argument. TFD and BigHex also need to define who - for you - "mainstream scholars" are in reference to this subject. For example, few biologists - few cell biologists even - write directly on the evolution of mitochondria in cells. That doesn't make the subject of mitochondrial evolution or a theory thereof automatically "minority" ones. As it stands, there seem to be quite a few who raise the issue of the phenomenon of large scale killings in some communist societies - even if some of them seek to clearly dismiss theories that link it to communism per se, or who raise the connection with regard to any one particular country. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 15:21, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Naw ... I'd say it's not really necessary to define the mainstream, because of cell biologists. The huge difference likely comes down to serious academic dispute. As Paul Siebert would agree, there is substantial serious academic dispute with the theories that the article attempts to suggest as fact. It is a minority POV topic, and the continual efforts to write it without this explicitly recognized are all doomed to fail NPOV. BigK HeX (talk) 15:25, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

BigHex, first of all, it's just silly (or stretching AGF to its limit) refusing to say which scholars you are talking about when trying to determine notability. Is it all historians? All historians looking at genocide? All historians looking at any part of the history of any country when it had communist rule? I would understand "mainstream scholars" to be those people who one might expect to mention such a connection given the material they cover. Secondly, you misrepresent the article by saying it presents theories as facts when it doesn't (that's what the new lede proposal is directly addressing) - unless you mean there is no way it could ever do so, in which case your arguments are actually suited to an AFD, and not to a discussion about the lede.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 15:37, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

???? Nothing in my comments above mentioned notability -- I've said the article is built on a minority POV. To my knowledge, there has never been any evidence posted on this talk page, that any theories on common causal links have any substantial academic acceptance. There has been posted on the talk page, plenty of evidence of serious academic dispute with many of the theories, on which this article rests. BigK HeX (talk) 15:47, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I had understood that your agreement with TFD's statement about few scholars recognising the phenomenon was an agreement that the topic per se was not notable - I apologise if you meant something different. I agree with what you say - that there has been plenty of academic dispute - and that this is something the article rests on. The article should deal with the nature of the disputes, given that they are plenty. (I ask precisely for what "mainstream" means, and for the topic and theories of the topic not to be collapsed, because the question of whether it was something inherent in communism in some respect is raised rather frequently when scholars try to look for explanations either within or across regimes.) Is this not a version of the article you can work towards?VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 16:01, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the article topic is notable or not ... it seems to generally rely on two major authors (Conquest and Rummel), with a smattering of a few other lesser works (Valentino, Black Book). Each of these works may be notable enough for an individual article, but tying them together has always seemed dicey to me. It brings us to having an article which is based on only a small handful of heavily disputed sources --- the result being an article of such minority POV as to be arguably a fringe topic. Certainly, it is plausible that there is a significant causal link between mass killings and communism, but it has almost always been unclear in this article that these theories are a minority viewpoint. BigK HeX (talk) 16:23, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

As for what can be worked towards with the article, I'm not really sure what that article would look like, but surely a reader quickly would have an understanding that the article relates two topics ("mass killings" and "Communist regimes") for which academic theories on the relationship are disputed. BigK HeX (talk) 16:41, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

IMO, we have to discriminate between two things: (i) notability of the events which are being discussed in the article, and (ii) notability of the POV according to which these events had some common cause (e.g. Communist ideology). Whereas the former is notable, the latter is hardly notable enough to present it as a mainstream POV. I think this confusion was a reason why the article survived four AfD's ("since (i) is notable, the article should be kept"). And, simultaneously, this is a reason of the article's non-neutrality: the proponents of (ii) cite notability of (i) to present (ii) as a mainstream POV (which is obviously incorrect).--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:46, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Paul, I'm glad you've got the point I was making about distinguishing between the two. However, I disagree with you and BigHex over the notability of those on that side of the debate - who, after all, would count as a major author in this field? Martin Malia also considered communism itself a factor, for example (and the Black Book, for all its many faults, is not minor). John Gray is not a minor writer either. And Benjamin Valentino has been cited many, many times. In addition to that we can't ignore major writers who accept the validity of the question, even if they reject the answer. My whole view of (and interest in) this article is that should a user plug in something like "Communist genocide", they are directed to a page that details the dispute amongst scholars, rather than finding what you fear could happen, which is one that confirms their POV. I'm not here to have a go at communism - but to find a way of providing information on the scholarly discourse. That's how we keep it encyclopedic. And as you say yourself, there is plenty of discourse, although I disagree with you that there are very few notable scholars or publications that do make a link to something within communism itself.

As an aside, although an important one, I do think there is a content fork with Criticisms of Communist party rule. Where the two articles overlap, this one seems to be in a better state than that one in terms of POV balance. We might want to look at how the articles fit together. And some editors might have a go at re-balancing that article, although I don't mean that as a request to edit something else instead ;-).VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 16:53, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I would say it is not notable because we cannot find any article or book that is exclusively about this subject. TFD (talk) 16:53, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

The main fault with the Black Book is of course the introduction, which is the only place that draws a connection between Communism and mass killings. Courtois actually restates a theory of Furet, who himself was restating his theory about the French Revolution. Essentially both revolutions led to worse regimes that used mass killings and there is a direct line from the Great Terror to the Red Terror. Watson, who was a Liberal, of course rejected this. Communism derived from conservatism, which is why his theories have not proved popular with the Right. Also he wrote outside the academic mainstream and outside his topic of interest. I would love to see a debate between Watson and Courtois. TFD (talk) 17:13, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

You're putting forward arguments for AFD, not for how to improve the lede. Could you perhaps be more constructive?VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 17:16, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

How is explaining what the literature says an argument for deletion? I think the lead should mention the literature and what it says, and I have just explained what it says. Please do not assume that people who disagree with you are not constructive. TFD (talk) 17:28, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

The lede is meant to be an intro to the article, not a discussion of the literature mark nutley (talk) 17:30, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure how describing rationale for a legitimate AfD would not be constructive..... BigK HeX (talk) 17:39, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

mark nutley, those two are not mutually exclusive, in fact sometimes they may be the same thing. TFD (talk) 17:45, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Re: "For example, few biologists - few cell biologists even - write directly on the evolution of mitochondria in cells. That doesn't make the subject of mitochondrial evolution or a theory thereof automatically "minority" ones." Correct. However, the analogy is not good. The evolution of the mitochondrial DNA is a subject of study, not a concept. The closest its analogue in our case are mass killings in some countries. Obviously, neither former nor later cannot be neither minority nor majority POV, no matter how many scholars study that, simply because it is something objective. By contrast the concept is, e.g., the idea that accumulation of mutations in mitochondrial DNA leads to ageing and death. This is a theory, which is not shared by all scholars working in this field, and which can be considered minority or majority views. By analogy, in our case such a hypothesis is that Communist mass killings had common cause and were directly linked to the Communist ideology. That is what we can call either majority or minority views, no matter how many scholars work in this field.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Re: BigK HeX's "Certainly, it is plausible that there is a significant causal link between mass killings and communism..." Not necessarily. Consider the following:

1. Communist revolutions as a rule, are victorious in poor agrarian countries with weak democratic traditions, whose population is prone to violence;
2. These revolutions, as a rule, occur during the periods of political and economical catastrophes, which exacerbate people's tendency to resort to violence as a tool to resolve all problems;
3. As a result, the social and economic background for all social transformations required by Communist doctrine is very unfavourable, which inevitably leads to the outburst of violence. (I do not pretend to put forward any new theories, however, before thinking about some plausible connections it would be useful, per Okkam's razor, to exclude any post hoc ergo propter hoc.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:44, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Your suggestion about the role of the social, economic background and agrarian countries with weak democratic tradition being the primary cause of mass killings can be countered with the analogy of the fire triangle, where each of the three components are equally likely to cause a fire in the presence of the other two. Pour the fuel of communist ideology on the smouldering discontent of such societies, and mass killing is likely to occur. But I think we are getting off topic in regard to the issue of the lede. VsevolodKrolikov makes a valid point here, the fact that there are a number of eminent scholars in the field who believe there is a causal link between communist ideology and mass killing cannot be ignored, and that this article serves as a road map to those opinions for and against that link. --Martin (talk) 19:45, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Fire triangle is not a good analogy, because its all three components are independent. By contrast, in the case we discuss, there is a positive correlation both between poverty and a victory of Communists, and between poverty and lack of democratic traditions (which leads to violence).

In other words, strong correlation between Communism and democide, observed by Rummel, could be just a correlation, not a casual linkage. Interestingly, Rummel, whose approach is based on pure math and produces only correlations, not explanations, easily switches to conclusions about casual linkages, whereas other scholars speak just about "statistically significant correlations", leaving theoretical speculations beyond the scope. How do you propose to reflect that?--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:19, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

The way to prove the triangle theory is see whether mass killings in occurred in countries where Communism was defeated. But in fascist Europe, Indonesia, Latin America and other places where this happened the Right seemed just as likely to engage in mass killings. In fact in Russia and China, where the Communists ultimately triumphed, the Right were also ruthless. In any case we need a source that presents this theory - we cannot create one on our own. TFD (talk) 20:54, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

General comments: This latest discussion is inappropriate - it's editors' own POVs and OR, and only illustrates agendas - on both sides. As for continually putting forward arguments for deletion such that it frustrates attempts to build consensus on how to improve the article (which has been through several AFDs now), it's against how wikipedia should work (calling an AFD is the honest thing to do). And as for refusing to define terms cited continually in such arguments - it speaks volumes. I'm off to help build an encyclopedia.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 00:34, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

break 2

The arguments are not about whether the article should be deleted but about how to present it. Right now the lead is question-begging - it presupposes that there is a connection between communist regimes and mass killings, which scientists are trying to explain. In fact there is no obvious connection and therefore no academic debate about what the connection is. TFD (talk) 00:49, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Eminent scholars like Martin Malia, John N. Gray and Benjamin Valentino have made such a connection, and if this isn't an instance of "academic debate", I don't know what is. In any case my proposed lede makes no assumptions. What assumption does "A number of causes for these killings have been proposed by various scholar, ranging from direct linkage to ideology to failure of the rule of law, economic conditions or other factors" make? And what is wrong with "A number of cases of mass killings have caused debate and dissent amongst academics"? --Martin (talk) 17:02, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Points regarding "academic debate" notwithstanding, I think TFD is correct in that most iterations of this article have been question begging. BigK HeX (talk) 17:15, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Dear Martin. The Wayman&Tago's article discusses correlation between various factors and the onset of mass killings. It is a methodological article, which, importantly, does not discuss a dispute over Communism and mass killings. Instead, it discusses a methods to establish statistically significant linkage between various factors (Communist ideology being just one of them) and the onset of mass killings, leaving a casual linkage mostly beyond the scope. In other words, the article (which is, in my opinion, a very good work) is a directly demonstration of my point, namely, that the connection between Communism and mass killings is not a major subject of interest of majority scholars working in the area of mass killings.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:34, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

That broader issue is somewhat off-topic, the issue at hand in this section is to formulate a lede which is a fair summary of the current article, can we focus on that? --Martin (talk) 18:03, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

To summarize the objection to your proposed lead: We cannot assume that the connection between mass killings and Communist regimes is a fact that must be explained, rather we should state that some writers have drawn a connection. Also, we should not present alternative explanations except where they are in reply to that thesis. The lead should state who is making the connection, what connection they make and the degree of acceptance of their theories. TFD (talk) 18:15, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I fail to see what assumptions is being made by the line "A number of causes for these killings have been proposed by various scholars, ranging from direct linkage to ideology to failure of the rule of law, economic conditions or other factors", it is simply a very basic summary of the section Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes#Proposed_causes, which already discusses who is making the connection, what connection they make and the degree of acceptance of their theories. Do we really need to copy that section into the lede verbatim? --Martin (talk) 18:24, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Saying, "A number of causes for these killings have been proposed by various scholars" implies that there is a phenomenon that social scientists seek to explain. This may be apophenia: finding a pattern in unrelated events. TFD (talk) 18:35, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Concur. In addition, let me quote the Wayman&Tago's article:

"Consistently with this, we expect mass killings by military regimes to be frequent and rapid in onset, but to kill thousands rather than millions per episode. An alternative form of autocracy is a communist regime. The organizational base of these regimes is the communist party, often having a membership consisting of upwards of 10 % of the total population of the society. Communist regimes have an ideology (Marxism-Leninism) that can legitimize massive regime efforts to transform society – often including mass killings in the millions. This combination of ideology and organization permits the killing of millions in communist mass killings. But communist regimes, especially in Eastern Europe in the Khrushchev and Brezhnev eras, frequently went decades without such ‘mega-murdering.’ So, communist regimes can mobilize the society and, usually on the way to fortifying their regime, the government is more likely to commit large-scale political purges (Valentino, 2004: 99-100). While communist regimes seem to kill large numbers (Rummel, 1994), we predict that military regimes engage in the most frequent mass killing and hence have the shortest time to onset."

In connection to that, I would like to point your attention at the following:

1. Wayman & Tago, as well as Valentino (explicitly) as well as many other scholars (implicitly) note that many Communist regimes were not involved in mass killings. This fact is reflected neither in the lede not in the article as whole; however, the fact that many regimes were not involved, implies that the connection between mass killings and Communism is not as direct as someone tries to present;
2. Wayman & Tago build their conclusions based on the Rummel's figures (that does not mean that they agree or disagree with Rummel, they clearly write that the question of validity of the numbers is left beyond the scope). However, since Rummel's numbers (at least in regard to Yugoslavia and the USSR) are shown to be a gross exaggeration, the statement about high mortality of Communist regimes also should be re-considered.

--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:51, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

"A phenomenon" is singular. "These killings" is plural. However, perhaps the distinction between individual and common causes should be more explicit in the lede. AmateurEditor (talk) 18:41, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. The sentence can be understood as "A number of causes for these killings have been proposed by various scholars" It should also be stressed that many scholars do not study Communist mass killings per se, they study them in a broader context (see, e.g. Valentino), or, conversely, they study separate cases avoiding any generalisations (see, e.g. Ellman).--Paul Siebert (talk)

I am well aware that the word phenomenon is singular, which is why I used the singular conjugation of the verb to be. My objection is to using a lead that presupposes that various phenomena together are part of a single phenomenon, which I described as apophenia. TFD (talk) 19:18, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Yet ironically not only does Wayman & Tago, which Paul kindly cites, treat communist mass killing as a phenomenon, they also compare and contrast it to mass killings by military regimes, i.e. communist mass killings are larger but less frequent while those perpetrated by military regimes tend to be smaller but more frequent. --Martin (talk) 22:18, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Waqyman & Tago do not state that "communist mass killings were larger but less frequent". They just cite Rummel's conclusion (which, as other authors demonstrated) were based on grossly exaggerated figures.

Again, Waqyman & Tago's article is not an instance of "academic debate" over Communist mass killing. It is a debates over the causes of mass killings in general, so to it would be against a WP policy to use this, as well as many other sources as a proof of the existence of some debates specifically aimed to establish a connection between mass killings and Communism.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:52, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Social sciences have the same standards as natural sciences. We cannot assume that connections exist unless they are accepted by scientific consensus. Individuals may draw connections between unconnected events, but we cannot do that. TFD (talk) 00:23, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

"...This proposal got lost in the chatter above so i am reposting it here..."

I don't think this trick is completely legitimate, because this chatter was a series of arguments MarkNutley failed to address. By calling all of that "chatter" MarkNutley demonstrated the lack of respect to the arguments of the others.
In my opinion, any discussion of his draft should be suspended until he addressed earlier criticism.
In particular, despite multiple explanations of what the source tell about the number of victims, he continued to cherry-pick sources which support his figure of 100 million and ignores the explanations that this figure comes from earlier estimates.
This approach (to look sources that support your POV, instead of attempting to find out what reliable source say and write the article accordingly) is deeply flawed and is a major breach of the WP policy.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:41, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Please stick to comments which will improve the article, rather than criticising the legitimacy of mark nutley's thread and his comments therein; the correct venue for such complaints is WP:WQA or WP:ANI. I think it's become clear that consensus is against nutley's proposal, and would suggest it, and this off-shoot section, be archived by an editor previously uninvolved in the discussion; it's no longer a constructive discussion. GiftigerWunsch 15:45, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Taking into account that the same issues are being raised again and again on this talk page, this discussion is constructive. The attention mush be drawn to previous criticism (and failure to address it) to prevent re-appearance of the same flawed arguments again and again.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:58, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Within this discussion, the same arguments, unfounded or illfounded in policy, are being repeated; I don't think that's constructive. In addition, consensus seems clear IMO, so I don't see any further reason to continue the discussion of this proposal. GiftigerWunsch 16:02, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Inline tags in the lede

Given that the lede is meant to be a summary of an amply cited text, are they really needed here? --Martin (talk) 20:07, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

No they weren't needed, IMO. I don't really see much justification for them. BigK HeX (talk) 20:08, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I also am not a supporter of the idea to have references in the lede. The lede is just a summary of what the article says, and all needed references can be found there. It seems to me (although I may be wrong) that the tags were added by someone who was not satisfied with some lede's statements, and that has been done just as a first step of the process aimed to delete these statements.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

That's my feeling exactly, Paul. Thanks for saying it. BigK HeX (talk) 23:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

There's no need for references in the lead; as stated, it's simply a summary of the article, which should be well-sourced. Providing there's no material in the lede which isn't in the article (which shouldn't be the case anyway), inline citations in the bulk of article should be sufficient. GiftigerWunsch 00:25, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

• Keep While they may not be required, they are helpful when new editors arrive and wish to change the lead. If there are no sources for it then it is hard to defend. If one enjoys long debates with newly arriving editors then not using sources is the way to go. TFD (talk) 23:46, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

If a lede is good (i.e. it correctly summarises the article), the refs plays only auxiliary role in the lede: every one can add them, but noone can request them. In other words, the refs are acceptable, but {cn} tags are not.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:56, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Citation needed tags are perfectly acceptable in the lead, as they are anywhere else; but if the same statement has been referenced elsewhere in the article, they are unnecessary. Per WP:Lead section#Citations, consensus should decide whether or not references are appropriate in the lead. GiftigerWunsch 07:51, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

POV tag

I noticed that the POV tag was removed although most editors agreed that this article is biased and I restored it. However User:Darkstar1st has removed it. Could Darkstar1st please explain why he has done this. TFD (talk) 03:08, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I think he just failed to notice Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. in the tag message. (Igny (talk) 04:09, 3 October 2010 (UTC))

That said we do need to try and resolve it. The issue was also discussed before, and its the argument about whether mass killings is an essential feature of communism, or something that takes place there. Its also an issue of balance. Mass deaths that arise from capitalism (Irish Famine etc.) as a result of things it doesn't do but that does not absolve guilt. Military Juntas often right wing have also been responsible for many deaths. Personally I think the article should go, with any relevant material appearing elsewhere. Another option is to have a Mass killings under political regimes article listing the ideology of the regimes. --Snowded 06:21, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the article should go, with the content integrated into the appropriate articles (i.e. killings under Stalin go in Stalin article, under Mao with Mao, etc.). -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 07:33, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

There is consensus shown in the last two AfD nominations that this article will be kept on Misplaced Pages. Discussion of POV in the article must therefore be focused on how to bring the article in line with a neutral point of view. Dismissing the article as irreparably POV is not constructive and does not justify keeping the POV tag. The template usage notes for the tag makes this point explicitly. I'll copy them here for everyone's convenience:

Template usage notes Do not use this template unless there is an ongoing dispute in an article. The editor placing this template in an article should promptly begin a discussion on the article's talk page. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant, then this tag may be removed by any editor. The purpose of this group of templates is to attract editors with different viewpoints to edit articles that need additional insight. This template should not be used as a badge of shame. Do not use this template to "warn" readers about the article. This template should only be applied to articles that are reasonably believed to lack a neutral point of view. The neutral point of view is determined by the prevalence of a perspective in high-quality reliable sources, not by its prevalence among Misplaced Pages editors.

I would love to actually have a productive discussion of specific POV issues in the body of the article or the title of the article. But refusing to engage in such discussion does not mean that the POV tag should stay indefinitely as a "badge of shame" for the article. AmateurEditor (talk) 01:07, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you could provide us with an article or book published by a university or academic press that discusses the topic which we could use as a model for the article. TFD (talk) 01:35, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I could. But, since that was one of the first things done for the article, I have a better idea: why don't you specify exactly what you believe is biased in the article so that we can discuss it. AmateurEditor (talk) 02:01, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The SYNTH issue with the single society case study sections, which don't speak to Communism in general, but to the CP PRC, CP USSR, the unique Kampuchean party mentality. The sections on academic debate need to be rewritten. Last time I was here and read Valentino he only mentioned specifically communist causes for mass killing as a separate category in one text, in the other it was an example of his type "dispossessive mass killing". There's also a great deal of SYNTH/OR from inappropriately terse and biased explanations of academic's positions in a very confused literature, past editors had the habit of deep text searching for any mention of communist rather than actually reading sources. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:34, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Please point to something specific within the article, all you have done above is make vague suggestions about all manner of things mark nutley (talk) 11:12, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

For one, "Theories, such as those of R. J. Rummel, that propose communism as a significant causative factor in mass killings have attracted scholarly dispute; this article does not discuss academic acceptance of such theories." Fifelfoo (talk) 13:45, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Is it meant to? mark nutley (talk) 13:57, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

All POVs that can be documented in reliable sources and are not fringe should be represented. If your favorite POV is not represented - please add it, with proper citations. If you think that there are WP:Fringe POVs in here or that there is WP:SYNTH please take those discussions to the proper places, e.g. Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard and Misplaced Pages:No original research/Noticeboard Smallbones (talk) 21:46, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Per the template usage notes I posted above, the editor who added the NPOV tag to the article is obligated to discuss what in the article violates NPOV. AmateurEditor (talk) 21:07, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I asked him to per the probation on this page , he has not bothered to. I suppose we need to bring it to enforcement? mark nutley (talk) 21:12, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I probably can explain. The article is written in completely wrong way. Concretely, it creates an impression that mass killings are immanent to Communism, although there are some exceptions, although in actuality the real state of things was reverse. It should not start with generalisations, because these generalisations are not supported by majority scholars, but, by contrast, it should list the most clear examples (Great Purge, Cultural revolution, Pol Pot), and then add that some scholars proposed theories that draw general connections between Communism and mass killings, add other mass mortality cases (famines etc) to this category, etc.

The really neutral article has to discuss not Communist mass killings, but Communism and mass killings, including those mass killings that were specific to Communism (land reforms, etc), mass killings that were specific to some particular Communist regime (Stalin's and Mao's political repressions), mass killings that were not specific to Communism (during anti-partisan warfare, civil wars), and mass killings that were prevented by Communists.

In addition, it is needed to move general definitions etc., discussion of genocide, democide etc to the mass killing article. Until all of that is done the tag cannot be removed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:02, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

The article is POV because it implies that there is a connection between "Communists regimes" and "mass killings" without explaining who made the connection and how widespread that view is. Also, unless there is a consensus that such a connection exists, it is wrong to provide details of individual killings without explaining how they relate to the topic. Incidentally, the editor placing this template should promptly begin a discussion, which I have done. TFD (talk) 22:01, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

In addition to what Paul and TFD said above. Here is my view. Consider an example of POV wording in the paragraph on Valentino's book

He applies this definition to the cases of Stalin's USSR, the PRC under Mao, and Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, while admitting that mass killings on a smaller scale also appear to have been carried out by regimes in North Korea, Vietnam, Eastern Europe, and Africa.

It is presented as if Valentino came up with the term "mass killings" in order to specifically deal with the communist states. Even the link in the reference uses the phrase "Communist Mass Killings: The Soviet Union, China, and Cambodia" taken out of context of the book "Final solutions: mass killing and genocide in the twentieth century". Clearly someone did great job by filtering "communist cases" out of the much broader picture of "mass killings of the 20th century". As it is written, the article can and should be renamed into "mass killings under totalitarian regimes", the current content trimmed into a section there, with a subsection on theories connecting communism and totalitarianism, other mass killings should be discussed for broader picture and wider context.

Please do not tell me that it can not be done. I surely can do that, and so can any one of you. So until that or some other solution to the POV presentation of the theories in this article is implemented, the POV tag stays. (Igny (talk) 00:12, 6 October 2010 (UTC))

Correct. One more example of this filtering. The second para of the page 91 of the Valentino's "Final solution", the same page the words about the Soviet Union, China and Cambodia were taken from, starts with the words:

"Communism has a bloody record, but most regimes that described themselves as Communist or been described as such by others have not engaged in mass killings"

In other words, Valentino explicitly warns against generalisations. I pointed at these words many times, and these my words have been repeatedly ignored. Once again, we either expand the article's scope to bring it with accordance with what the sources say (followed by the article's renaming), or we narrow the article's scope to include only obvious and non-controversial cases. Note, the article started as an article about Cambodian genocide, and that was quite justified.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:44, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

What I read above as justification for having the POV tag is that you do not like the content of the article - but that is not sufficient cause to use the POV tag. WP:NPOV is about including all POVs that can be documented in reliable sources. What POV has not been included? Please identify it, and if you can document it - include it in the article. If you fail to include it in the article, it is your own fault. Nobody has been deleting the viewpoints that are more sympathetic to the Communists, rather there has been systematic deletion of viewpoints that say "This was a terrible crime." Smallbones (talk) 01:07, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Please, read the above posts carefully. The problem is not with inclusion or exclusion of some POVs but with the very article's concept. In addition, I cannot understand why the Synth tag has been removed. IMO, Igny and I gave good examples of selective filtering of the sources that is prohibited per WP policyas synthesis.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:13, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The article is POV because it implies that there is a connection between "Communists regimes" and "mass killings" without explaining who made the connection and how widespread that view is. Also, unless there is academic consensus that such a connection exists, it is wrong to provide details of individual killings without explaining how they relate to the topic. TFD (talk) 01:13, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

If as PS says "The problem is not with inclusion or exclusion of some POVs but with the very article's concept," then the POV tag should not be used, rather, take it again to AFD, where you can expect to get the same result as the last 6 AFDs - the article stays. TFDs comment is also unrelated to the use of the POV tag and simply wrong: The article lists several people (in reliable sources) who make a connection between "Communists regimes" and "mass killings." I conclude that there are no excluded POVs that folks want to add, and that the POV tag should be removed. Smallbones (talk) 03:19, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

None of the sources that draw the connection are mainstream opinions and therefore there are no mainstream views to balance them with. The article is POV because the article implies that there is a consensus accepting these views. If you disagree could you please provide an article in a peer-reviewed article or in a book published by an academic publishing house that shows there is a consensus that any connection exists. TFD (talk) 04:22, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Why don`t you provide one which says no such consensus exists? Or that the sources currently used are not mainstream? There is noting in policy which says a peer reviewed source is needed for such any reliable source will do the job mark nutley (talk) 10:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Re "Why don`t you provide one which says no such consensus exists?" Per WP:BURDEN--Paul Siebert (talk) 12:28, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

No paul, you are the ones saying no such consensus exists, so prove it per WP:BURDEN thanks mark nutley (talk) 13:52, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

TFD states that "there are no mainstream views" in the article. Frankly I think this is nonsense: there are just no mainstream views that he agrees with. In any case please add what you think the mainstream views are, as long as they are found in reliable sources. TFD and PS imply that only consensus views are acceptable in the article - but this is exactly the opposite of WP:NPOV which says that all non-fringe POVs found in reliable sources should be included. I suppose the next argument that somebody will put up is that the Black Book of Communism (published by Harvard University Press), etc., etc. etc. are fringe. This has been argued many times before and found to be false. Smallbones (talk) 13:17, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

So you've read the Black Book? You'd be aware like I am that the chapters are all single society case studies, except for the introduction and conclusion, where Courtois advances a thesis that bad things happened in the Soviet Union, and also (for two to three short paragraphs) in China and Vietnam because of an absence of Godliness in communist thought (he advances this view in the last four paragraphs of the introduction). The chapters in the Black Book are of the expected quality of academic work, and Courtois' writing is unremarkable either way, but he does not present a thesis that Communism in general is in anyway a causative factor, or that the selection of included chapters advances a general thesis. This does not compare well to Valentino's general theory of causes of mass-killing in his monograph, for example. Milovan Djilas' general theory of the sociology of Communist elites is more credible as an explanation for why bad things happen in some states, but not in others. Fifelfoo (talk) 13:34, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Smallbones, I did not say there are no mainstream views "in the article", but that there are none to balance the fringe theory promoted by the article. I did not say only consensus views are acceptable, but that the article should not imply there is a consensus for a theory when none exists. Could you please not misrepresent what I have written. And yes the intro to the Black Book is fringe and has received no academic acceptance. TFD (talk) 13:48, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Please provide a reliable source which says the views (letting us know which ones would be nice btw) are fringe, thanks mark nutley (talk)

mark nutley, fringe just means that it has received no academic acceptance. Asking for a source is like asking for a source that someone is not famous. The onus is on you to show that the view has academic acceptance. TFD (talk) 14:18, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

No not at all, you need to prove this is in fact a fringe theory. Also it matters not if it has academic acceptance, there is no policy which says a wiki article has to have such mark nutley (talk) 14:38, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Per WP:BURDEN we do not need that. By contrast, you have to prove it is not a fringe theory.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:33, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I see sweet FA in WP:Burden which says i have to prove anything, you guys keep saying this is fringe, so give me a source which backs your assertion. Just becasue you say it is fringe does not make it so mark nutley (talk) 23:34, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

No, you must support all edits you wish to make. By the way, could you please avoid colloquialisms, especially semi-obscene ones, that lower the tone of discussion. TFD (talk) 23:54, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Lede revert

It was requested that I explain why I reverted "worst mass killings", etc out of the lede. For starters, "worst" looked like superlative that needed far more explanation than the lede should afford, and even outside of the lede it seems a disputed assertion. BigK HeX (talk) 18:18, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. As I've mentioned before, "worst" is subjective and against NPOV. Do we really need to keep having these same discussions? "Worst" is not an appropriate measure of mass murders. "Highest death tolls", providing the evidence for such a statement is strong, is much more suitable. GiftigerWunsch 18:39, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes i asked you to as it is one of the restrictions on this article, i thought you knew about it? The source used says worst, why is valention`s book now suddenly not wp:rs? But i`m happy to use highest death tolls as Giftiger says mark nutley (talk) 19:11, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Controversial or not, we're really missing something here.

Germany, circa WWII (remember that?), the holocaust. People try to argue otherwise, but the NAZIs were and did declare themselves to be socialist. Rarely mentioned is the point Hitler himself declared there to be no difference between National Socialism and Communism.

Would someone who thinks they are a truly liberal thinker and fair expositor of TRUTH like to add the missing data?

Thank you.Aaaronsmith (talk) 19:02, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Well i know that but you require a source which discuss`s it mark nutley (talk) 19:12, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

So all that Brownshirt violence against the communist party was just a love fest was it? --Snowded 20:39, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Nope, just two ideology's slugging it out, but there is bugger all difference between them is there? Well apart from the body count i suppose mark nutley (talk) 20:44, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Suggested Topic: The problem of the causes of mass state violence against civilians by Communist governments in Genocide studies (yes it needs work)

Wotcher, Doing my brain in trying to explain some meta, I had an insight into what I believe the actual topic of this article is. Having read Lemkin, Courtois, Rummel, Valentino, and a number of other papers and chapters (yea, even a monograph for this article), the actual topic being covered here appears to be "The problem of the cause mass state violence against civilians by Communist governments in Genocide studies." Hear me out

1. There is a genuine social science and historical literature of genocide studies (broadly construing "genocide" in genocide studies)
   1. This literature covers both single state cases
   2. And comparative studies
2. Genocide studies have a real academic problem with the causes of mass state violence against civilians
   1. There are clear examples of societies which went through periods of mass state violence against civilians
   2. But these weren't continuous temporally or geographically in single states
   3. And some Communist states weren't racked by mass state violence against civilians internally (though they did under go individuated state violence)
3. So genocide scholars attempt to deal with the problem of causation
   1. Through single society studies
      1. With causes 1..n per society
   2. Through comparative studies of states which had such violence
      1. With causes 1..n per theory
   3. Through comparative studies of states with and without such violence
      1. With differential causes 1..n (Mainly Valentino, some critiques of Democide)
   4. Through universal theories of mass violence in all modern states

There's the article. It ties a literature concentrated on an unresolved scholarly problem, it allows for the major theories of single society studies to be contrasted to over-arching theories. The presence of single society studies will please editors who want to see certain section headings, but the presence of a solid scholarly problem: mass violence in some but not all, at some times but not all times, Communist states. It lets the theories touch ground as and when they're linked to the core scholarly problem. And it is written primarily out of Reliable Sources of scholarly opinion, weighted and noted where contested, following the structures present in literature devoted to the core problem of causation.

What do editors think? My proposed running order would be Universal theories with a concentration on the problem of mass violence in communist states, comparative shared or unshared cross cultural theories of communist cause, society specific theories. Each noting the main example present in the literature at the first instance used. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:38, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for a good faith attempt at consensus. We could use more of that. It seems to me that your proposed title "The problem of the causes of mass state violence against civilians by Communist governments in Genocide studies" is essentially a different topic than this one (or even than the "Proposed causes" section of the current article) as it is a level of abstraction removed from it. That is, rather than being about the causes of the mass killings per reliable sources, your article would be about the study of the causes of the mass killings, which is significantly different. I would say that it is different enough to be a section of this one or even its own article (provided that there are actually sources which discuss the study of the causes of the mass killings so that we would not be engaged in original research). AmateurEditor (talk) 20:57, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your considered reply. I agree that the topic of the article I'm proposing is different to the current topic. The current topic is, "mass state violence against civilians by Communist governments". I surveyed the academic literature for this topic, and the presentation of "mass state violence against civilians by Communist governments" never appears without an argument of causation or a clear moralism speaking to prescriptive policy. The arguments of causation and moralistic prescriptive policy are, "The problem of…in Genocide studies." The argument I'm putting is therefore that the current article fails to reflect the scholarly and popular discussion of the topic "mass state violence against civilians by Communist governments" as this is never discussed by itself in the literature, it is always discussed as a scholarly problem of causation in the field of genocide studies. As such, I'm claiming the current topic fails to reflect the topic in the scholarly reliable sources, even the ones we're using, and the topic should be changed to reflect the sourcing basis. Thoughts? Fifelfoo (talk) 00:27, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I would say the article's content is held together by just few sources: Rummel, Semelin, Goldhagen and, probably, Valentino (where the term "mass killing" was borrowed from), and few others. Rummel in his scholarly articles focuses mostly on correlations between totalitarianism and democide, and prefers to avoid direct attacks of Communism specifically and Guinness-type discussions of "megamurderers". Valentino also prefers to discuss a broader issue of mass killings in general. Semelin with his term "classicide" seems to be more specific and more appropriate to this article. Other sources are either descendants of Cold war propaganda, or they discuss each country separately. Therefore, I think the article in its current version will never become non-controversial, neutral and stable. It should be either expanded to include all totalitarian mass killings, or to cleaned from all tangentially related theorising and facts.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:00, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

PS Lemkin seems to be quite irrelevant to the article's subject because Communist mass killings (except Cambodia) do not fit the narrow definition of genocide, whereas loosely defined genocide becomes something that is not historically unique and therefore is applicable to too many XX century events, including those Western democracies were involved in.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:06, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

(Regarding Lemkin, read the journal article attacking his politicisation of genocide which is given in the article, Lemkin modified his theory in order to meet funding demands from emigre Eastern European communities in the USA. Lemkin's modifications were not taken up by international states in their discussion of genocide. It is quite a good journal article, and clearly presents the extent and limits of Lemkin's theorisation). Where my proposal differs from the current coverage is in allowing single society case studies in. This would allow for particularly highly notable studies of causation in single societies to be discussed, broadening the sourcing basis and solving a number of issues related to the reluctance of specialist historians to assign causation to general factors when they believe that society specific factors were the cause. These elements of the literature have been "defined out" of the current article, even though the present a coherent discourse along side general theories of causation in the scholarly field. It would leave the article structured around the academic discourses in single society and general theories, and present social incidents when they are used, and only used by Misplaced Pages to the extent they are used, by scholars as examples of their theorisation. Such a wikipedia article would present Valentino's belief that mass killings in communist states are an exemplar of his category of dispossessive mass killings, and note, "such as the collectivisation in the Ukraine which resulted in wide spread famine, estimated by Valentino as leading to ____ deaths." Fifelfoo (talk) 01:16, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

If I understand your proposal correct, that is close to what I proposed: to try to avoid unneeded generalisation and focus not on connection between Marxist theory and mass killings (which hardly exists in actuality; moreover, some sources, which are not cited in the article, tell the opposite, namely, that it was a Marxist ideology that prevented Stalinism to develop into a fully genocidal regime), but on some concrete examples. It is necessary to show how national specifics caused mass killings during the attempts to implement Marxist doctrine (which was modified in each particular case). For instance, it is quite necessary to tell that there were three major factors that caused Kampuchean genocide: desperate economic situation of Khmer peasantry, Khmer nationalism (including their traditions of revenge) and deeply misinterpreted Marxist doctrine (which by definition is not applicable to the agrarian society). It is also quite necessary to explain how Mao's interpretation of Marxism lead to disastrous Great Leap (and that was a reason why Chinese bosses warned Pol Pot against too radical transformations). It should be said that the Soviet mass killings in Afghanistan were a results of Soviet attempts to secularise archaic Afghan society, etc. By doing that we probably can convert the article in something reasonable.

Re "Valentino's estimates", he never did his own studies. He, as well as Rummel, just collected other secondary sources and tried to draw conclusions based on that. Therefore, it would be more correct to use the sources that deal with each concrete case separately.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:14, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with the scholarly practice of conducting second order research, it is generally the way that larger theoretical claims are made in the social sciences. My proposal is that this article ought to follow the narrative and focus present in the scholarly second order literature, and scholarly general theories of mass violence specific to communist societies, and scholarly general theories of mass violence operating at a higher level of causation than communist societies. Such an account would give the actual scholarly opinion on causation: some scholars believe causes are socially particular, some scholars believe causes are particular to certain communisms, some scholars believe causes exist at a level beyond communism (totalitarianism, modern state apparatus, etc.). The concrete objects would then be Bar's Theory A (concrete example1, concrete example2), Baz's Theory B (concrete example3), Foo's History of The Terror for its argument of Causation, etc. For theories of Marxism causing mass violence, and their academic reception, see the article's current section on Robert Grant destroying George Watson's fringe work. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:25, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, however, if the Bar's theory A in actuality was developed to describe the onset of mass killings under totalitarian regimes, whereas the Baz's theory deals with mass killings under authoritarian regimes, they hardly can serve as a framework for the article devoted to the mass killings under Communist regimes. Re second order research, in the Valentino's case they are fourth order research: he uses, among others, the Rummel's data, and the former didn't work with primary sources, preferring to do his estimates based on existing secondary sources.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:41, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

We do have the article "Crimes against humanity under communist regimes", but we would have to change the name of the article because no one has ever written specifically about mass killings under Communist regimes. While some editors have called it a tertiary source, it meets the criteria of a secondary source for Misplaced Pages. It could be used as the major source for the article. TFD (talk) 03:00, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

If I read you correctly, you like the idea of focusing the article around the scholarly problematic; but, in your opinion, the centre of scholarly discourse on the problem of abhorrent behaviour by communist societies in comparative study is centred in the general crimes against humanity issue, and not in the specific mass killing / genocide studies issue? Having just read the introduction, and publisher checked, Klas-Göran Karlsson and Michael Schoenhals, Crimes against humanity under communist regimes: Research review Stockholm: Forum for Living History, 2008; this source is a scholarly field review, of recent period, which would allow for an approach rooted in a High Quality Reliable Source reviewing literature which is esteemed to be of High Quality and published in a Reliable Source mode in wikipedia's meaning. Basing my proposal above off Karlsson and Schoenhals 2008's framework, and getting an agreed topic change and page move would be a good thing. Can we discuss developing a consensus around this? Fifelfoo (talk) 03:13, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Let's just stick to the topic we have and keep it simple. There's no need to re-name and move the article again. Smallbones (talk) 04:20, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it is easier to propose than to implement. Simple addition of other points of view will lead to an eclectic and completely unreadable article, because the very article's structure is flawed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 12:33, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

If we keep it under the same title, then the lead should begin, "A number of scholars have developed a theory connecting mass killings under Communist regimes with Communist ideology. These scholars have been accused of inflating mortality figures in order to make Communism to seem a greater evil than Nazism. While these views have become popular with the far right, they have gained no academic acceptance." That anyway is what peer-reviewed articles have to say about the subject. TFD (talk) 12:53, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

If we keep it then something like that is key --Snowded 12:55, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Replying to Paul Siebert, given the closers opinion on the most recent AFD, I would propose a blank, full move with redirect, and rewrite from Klas-Göran Karlsson and Michael Schoenhals, Crimes against humanity under communist regimes: Research review Stockholm: Forum for Living History, 2008 and Valentino for structure, then filling in other major theories out of HQRS. Then after the theory sourced structure is down, filling in the pertinent sections of the article with content to the extent it is cited out of the HQRS written structure. The closer's note encouraged discussion focused on deep rewriting, rather than deletition.

Replying to Snowded, there is a genuine topic somewhere in this mess, and that genuine topic is for a comparative and topical article. Repeated AFDs demonstrate that the community of AFD editors are unwilling to kill the article outright. I believe Karlsson and Schoenhals, as well as Valentino's section treatment, and the variety of single society case studies and general theory studies which reference communist societies as evidence bases indicates there's a topic here somewhere. The topic is the scholarly discourse, theories of association or absence of association.

Replying to TFD, I suspect we sell the wikipedia short if we restrict such a topical article, as "Communist Genocide" and "Mass killings under Communist regimes" have been in the past merely to "Reporting the popular beliefs as a result of theories accusing actually existing Communism as an ideological system of having a direct causative role in causing mass abuses of human rights leading to large scale unexpected mortality in Communist governed states for the right and far right particularly in Western Europe and the United States after 1970." I'd like to actually cover the content of the scholarly debate, with appropriate contextualising evidence as found in the full variety of scholarly sources, as it exists around this problematic. I think you would too.

Should the result of this discussion be a more formal proposal for article direction and RFC to form consensus? Fifelfoo (talk) 13:07, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Wiki is not for covering the full extent of what scholars debate about, it is for presenting factual information, hence wp:v. The article direction is fine as is, apart of course from the usual suspects wishing it away mark nutley (talk) 14:07, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

It is incorrect to refer to WP:V when the issue is in WP:NOR and WP:NPOV.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:34, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

1. Valentino, Benjamin A. (8 December 2005). "3". Final solutions: mass killing and genocide in the twentieth century. Cornell University Press. p. 73. ISBN 978-0801472732.
2. Kramer, Mark; Courtois, Stephane; Panne, Jean-Louis (15 October 1999). The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression (1st American ed.). Harvard University Press. ISBN 978-0674076082. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
3. "Communism's Crimes Against Humanity". The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation. p. 1. Retrieved 7 September 2010.
4. Shleifer, Andrei (Autumn, 1998). Journal of Economic Perspectives. 12 (4). American Economic Association: 133–150 http://www.jstor.org/stable/2646898. during the 20th century, communist governments killed over 100 million of their own people {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)
5. Peou, Sorpong (10 November 2008). Human security in East Asia: challenges for collaborative action (1st ed.). Routledge. p. 145. ISBN 978-0415467964.

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