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A news item involving Climatic Research Unit email controversy was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 24 November 2009.

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view · edit Frequently asked questions To view an explanation to the answer, click the link to the right of the question. Q1: Why is this article not called "Climategate"? A1: There have been numerous discussions on this subject on the talk page. The current title is not the common name, as is generally used for Misplaced Pages articles, but instead a descriptive title, one chosen to not seem to pass judgment, implicitly or explicitly, on the subject. A recent Requested move discussion has indicated that there is no consensus to move the article to the title of Climategate, and so further discussion of the article title has been tabled until at least June 2011. Q2: Why aren't there links to various emails? A2: The emails themselves are both primary sources and copyright violations. Misplaced Pages avoids using primary sources (WP:PRIMARY), and avoids linking to Copyright violations. If a specific email has been discussed in a reliable, secondary source, use that source, not the email. Q3: Why is/isn't a specific blog being used as a source? A3: Blogs are not typically reliable sources. Blogs may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. Blogs should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP#Reliable sources. Q4: Aren't the emails/other documents in the public domain? A4: No. Some of the hacked documents are covered by Crown copyright, others by private copyright. The Freedom of Information Act does not affect copyright. Q5: Why does the article refer to a hacking and to stolen documents? Couldn't this be an accidental release of information or released by a whistleblowing insider ? A5: Misplaced Pages reports the facts from reliable sources. In their most recent statement on the issue, Norfolk Constabulary have said that the information was released through an attack carried out remotely via the Internet and that there is no evidence of anyone associated with the University being associated with the crime. Both the University and a science blog, RealClimate , have reported server hacking incidents directly associated with this affair. The University has stated that the documents were "stolen" and "illegally obtained". Q6: Why is there a biographies of living persons (BLP) notice at the top of this page? This article is about an event, and the Climatic Research Unit is not a living person. A6: The BLP applies to all pages on Misplaced Pages, specifically to all potentially negative statements about living persons. It does not apply solely to articles about living persons. The notice is there to remind us to take care that all statements regarding identifiable living persons mentioned in the article or talk page comply with all Misplaced Pages policies and with the law, per the BLP. Q7: What do I do if I have a complaint about the conduct of other people editing or discussing this article? A7: Follow the dispute resolution policy. It is not optional. Unduly cluttering the talk page with complaints about other editors' behavior is wasteful. In the case of egregiously bad conduct only, consider contacting an administrator. Q8: I think there is inadequate consensus on a matter of policy. What should I do? A8: There are several options. Consider posting the issue on one of the noticeboards, or starting a request for comment (RFC) on the question. Q9: Why doesn't the article report that BBC weather reporter Paul Hudson received an advance copy of the leaked content? A9: Because it isn't true. In fact, the only involvement Paul Hudson reports (see here) is that he had been the subject of emailed complaints from CRU climatologists concerning a blog article he had recently published, and that he was able to confirm that those emailed complaints which had been copied to him by the senders, and which later appeared in the zip file of stolen documents, were authentic. That is to say, Hudson received some of the later leaked e-mails, but only those originally also addressed to him or the BBC, which forwarded them. It appears that some blogs and newspapers have misinterpreted this. This was also confirmed by the BBC on the 27th November 2009 and on the 13th March 2010 when the issue arose again. Q10: Newspapers have reported that this article and a lot of the global warming articles are being controlled and manipulated. Why don't we report that? A10: The items in question are opinion columns by James Delingpole and Lawrence Solomon. Misplaced Pages's guidelines on self-references discourage self-referential material unless publicity regarding a Misplaced Pages article is determined to be significant enough to be included. This requires the Misplaced Pages coverage to be a major part of the controversy. There is no consensus that the two opinion columns meet this criterion. This does not preclude coverage of those writers' opinions on Misplaced Pages in other articles, such as James Delingpole, Lawrence Solomon, Global warming conspiracy theory, and Criticism of Misplaced Pages, but that would be a matter for the editors of those individual articles. On specific charges against an individual named by Lawrence Solomon and repeated uncritically by James Delingpole, please see this discussion on the Conflict of interest noticeboard.

Issues related to this article have been raised at the Biographies of living persons noticeboard on 21 November 2009 (archived) 28 November 2009 (archived) 31 December 2009 (archived) 6 January 2010 (archived) and at Neutral point of view noticeboard on 7 December 2009 (archived) and at Requested moves on 11 December 2009 (failed) 23 December 2009 (failed) 17 February, 2010 (failed) 17 March, 2010 (successful)

RfC: Rename article?

It is proposed that the "Climatic Research Unit email controversy" be renamed "Climategate". Is this proposed rename supported or contradicted by Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines? What are the risks and benefits of such a rename? mark nutley (talk) 11:15, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

This RFC has been moved to Talk:Climatic Research Unit email controversy/RFC Climategate rename policy query. It is still ongoing, so please join the discussion there. --TS 00:08, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

TS oh bother please tell us all what it is like in the future year 2020? Much Thanks, from BlondeIgnoreBlondeignore (talk) 17:00, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

We get to work by biodiesel-powered roller skates. The RFC seems to have died so I'm letting this section be archived. Tasty monster (=TS ) 07:39, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Daily Mail

The Daily Mail, a tabloid newspaper, is used twice in this article. I don't think it qualifies as a reliable source on anything having to do with science. I say this, because while working on the subject of Gliese 581 g, I came across this recent article in the Daily Mail, an article that appears to be a work of complete fantasy in the guise of a news story. This is very troubling, because not a single fact in this story checks out. I would therefore propose that the Daily Mail be removed on this basis. Viriditas (talk) 09:38, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Daily Mail often comes up at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. It is reliable for quite a number of things, but not of course for scientific fact (no newspapers are), and in my opinion, not for science-related news either. One way to look at it is as a recentism question. We developed our article as the story unfolded in the press, but now it is time to stand back and see how it looks after the events. One of the Mail articles is: Were Russian secret services behind it all? Er, no, they weren't. And we can do a lot better than that sort of lurid nonsense. So please do replace that source with better ones where you can. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:22, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

This is the right approach: find a better source and replace the cites you are unhappy with. Much better approach than getting into the messy arguments that will inevitably follow any attempt at a blanket ban. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 11:26, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Judith & JAJ, and it shouldn't be hard to find a better source to replace the dubious cite to the Daily Mail. Best, Pete Tillman (talk) 19:33, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Ditto.--CurtisSwain (talk) 21:11, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

We should not be using poor sources or making exceptions for them. Viriditas (talk) 22:05, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

In my experience people usually rate sources as "poor" mainly because they don't personally agree with them. This is particularly so with Newspapers on contentious/political issues, and it sounds to me that certain people are expressing their political viewpoint of the paper on what is overwhelmingly a political article which requires a broad range of sources from all shades of the political spectrum (not just the ones certain editors agree with!) Isonomia (talk) 15:47, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Please assume good faith. As I said the DM is reliable for some purposes. It's not "at the quality end of the market" though and its science coverage in particular has come under attack from a number of quarters. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:50, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

That may be the case for political issues. But with science reporting it's simply a quality issue. For most newspapers science is filed under entertainment, and the reporting is accordingly. Here is a science reporter(?) poking fun at this. In most newspapers all bigger science news stories are pressed into this corset, although it almost never fits. Only a few very high quality papers have the kind of readers who won't tolerate this and provide real, fact-based science reporting instead. Hans Adler 16:56, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

• The first Daily Mail reference is used to support the local police investigation of the server hack, that the purloined data went through a Russian server, and another bit re the Norfolk police investigation. None remotely controversial (sfaik), no science content, and all easily replaced, if anyone cares to make the effort. The second is about the alleged death threats, and if there's no better source, that bit perhaps should be dropped. Best, Pete Tillman (talk) 18:42, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

No, let's not start trying to drop the death threat reports again, we spent months on them. --Nigelj (talk) 19:09, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

If you can't find a source for the death threats, they need to be dropped. We can source that people claimed to have had death threats. The Guardian Environmental Network appears not to be a reliable source, either. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:55, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Why not? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:26, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

It appears to be commentary by The Guardian, rather than something resembling news articles. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:04, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Death threats

All of these signed, dated articles in major organs report the death threats.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/08/hacked-climate-emails-death-threats

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7017905.ece

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/7180154/Climategate-Professor-Phil-Jones-considered-suicide-over-email-scandal.html

http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/climategate-scientist-contemplated-suicide/19348067

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-02-08/world/climate.change_1_climatic-research-unit-intergovernmental-panel-mails?_s=PM:WORLD

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100217/full/463860a.html

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,687259,00.html

--Yopienso (talk) 22:31, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Most report that people 'reported receiving death threats, rather than (in the editorial voice) stating that they did.

1. Guardian Environmental Network appears to be a news aggregator; we can't tell whether specific articles, even from The Guardian, are subject to normal editorial review

   Two of the scientists involved in "Climategate" – the e-mail hacking incident at the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia, UK – have been emailed death threats since the contents of their private e-mails were leaked to the world. No further information can be revealed about these particular threats at present because they are currently under investigation with the FBI in the United States.

   This article was published on guardian.co.uk at 09.28 GMT on Tuesday 8 December 2009. It was last modified at 16.45 GMT on Tuesday 8 December 2009.

2. The Times reports that Jones reported death threats.
3. The Telegraph reports that Jones (and others) reported death threats; there are no comments on confirmations or reports to the police.
4. AOL News, probably also a news aggregator, reports that Jones reported death threats.

   Theunis Bates Contributor Theunis is a London-based journalist. He writes for Time, Fast Company and Business Life.

5. CNN reports that Jones reported death threats.
6. Nature reports (as an aside) that Jones received death threats.
7. Der Spiegel reports that there are death threats on the Internet. I've received death threats on the Internet. I'm not convinced this is worthy of report.

   The Internet is full of derisive remarks about him, as well as insults and death threats.

— Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:02, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I've inserted quotes from some of those sites in small print. You are correct that it was Phil Jones himself who made those claims. It had not occurred to me the WP community would doubt his word. Naively, I had not. Journalists (or professional free-lancers) Kate Ravilious, Richard Girling, Aislinn Laing, Theunis Bates, Hilary Whiteman, Matt Knight, Olive Heffernan, Marco Evers, Olaf Stampf and Gerald Traufetter believed him. (I now have my doubts as to the reliability of the last 3 from Der Spiegel.) Does anyone know if Jones received specific threats, or if they were all rude, anonymous individuals on CBS reader comments and the like? --Yopienso (talk) 00:17, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

If Prof Jones made such claims to the Norfolk police, and later to the FBI, and then couldn't back them up with evidence, I think by now we would have heard about his charges for 'wasting police time'. As to the other slant here, we went through people at the time claiming, 'Where I live, it's so violent that everybody receives death threats at work every day, so it's not worth mentioning'. I have lived in East Anglia (though not admittedly, Norfolk) and it wasn't like that there a few years back. --Nigelj (talk) 11:48, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

For that last, I'm referring only to the Der Spiegel article (at least, that's what it used to be called); it said "death threats on the Internet". They may be more prevalent against climate change scientists than against controversial Misplaced Pages editors, but the article didn't say that. Thinking it over, however, I'm probably wrong about The Guardian; although it seems to say it's an aggregator in the article sidebar, the description at http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/ seems fairly clear that it's a tag, so that article (which is the most specific) seems adequate. Still, I do not agree that most of those authors "believed Jones", or they would have said so. The only articles which stated that Jones received death threats were:

• The Guardian
• Nature
• Der Speigel (reported that there were death threats on the Internet)

Most of those which stated that Jones reported receiving death threats didn't mention reporting them to the police, so the only thing we could say is that "Jones reported death threats". However, The Guardian seems adequate. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:11, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

The Guardian article is identified as from the environmentalresearchweb I'm unfamiliar with that site, but it appears to be an aggregator of other blogs, and so is unlikely to be a WP:RS. --Pete Tillman (talk) 18:04, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

WTF? "Death threats on the internet" is not a literal quotation from the Spiegel article. Here is the literal quotation: "The Internet is full of derisive remarks about him, as well as insults and death threats. 'We know where you live,' his detractors taunt." In no way is this evidence that there were no death threats outside the web. If you insist on drawing synthesised conclusions from this passage, it seems more natural to assume that the German magazine found it harder to verify Jones' claim by asking the police in an English-speaking country and instead went with something they could easily verify on their own by just surfing around. This definitely doesn't invalidate anything that others have reported. Hans Adler 09:02, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

This was discussed yonks ago. Multiple climate researchers reported death threats to the authorities in the wake of the hacking, and criminal investigations were opened by police and other law enforcement agencies on at least three continents. I do think it would be bad form not to record this, as it's rather unusual for theoretical scientists working behind desks with computers and pencils and things to suffer such threats. --TS 08:10, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Fox News Channel does not check facts

As if we needed another illustration as to how nonsense like the CRU "controversy" is spread by the media, today, October 11, Fox News Channel decided to run the same, bogus story spread earlier on October 1 by the Daily Mail about Gliese 581 g. The original Daily Mail story mixed and matched facts from a story published in The Australian over a year ago, on May 9, 20009. At the time, The Australian originally reported the discovery of Gliese 581 e, which was announced on April 21, 2009. The story in The Australian mentioned Ragbir Bhathal, an astrophysicist at the University of Western Sydney who reported in April that during a SETI search in December 2008, he found a one time signal from the direction of 47 Tucanae. This is nowhere near Gliese 581, located in the Libra constellation. What is interesting here, is how this game of Chinese whispers, begins with The Australian in 2009, an asset of Murdoch's News Corporation, and ends with the FOX News Network, even though it is attributed to space.com. How can it be, that in all this time, not a single journalist or reporter can be bothered to fact check or follow up on this story? No, I'm sorry, but neither the Daily Mail nor Fox News have a reputation for fact checking or accuracy, and this incident proves it yet again. Neither publication should be allowed in this article. The story by Niall Firth in the Daily Mail never occurred, and the story by Denise Chow of space.com as repeated on the Fox News website never happened. What did happen, is that one reporter got the story wrong, and another repeated those mistakes. We have no use for these kind of sources on Misplaced Pages. Viriditas (talk) 01:31, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I think you are taking "reputation for fact checking" too literally. The distinction between formally reliable sources and other sources is just a bright-line rule that people are more and more centering on for no good reason other than wiki dynamics. "Reputation for fact checking" is just a way of expressing the idea of "something like a newspaper". Newspapers are notoriously unreliable, and it's just more obvious in areas you know about. The RS/non-RS distinction is not a substitute for intelligent reading and evaluation of source quality and relevance. Hans Adler 09:08, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

The problem, as I see it, is that the definition of a reliable source on Misplaced Pages differs quite remarkably from the definition of what a reliable source is considered off-wiki. When asked why this is, I'm told that the difference prevents a conflict with the NPOV policy, but I don't believe that is true. Viriditas (talk) 21:46, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Add Cato Institute scholars have been particularly energetic in promoting the Climategate scandal, per August 2010 The New Yorker article by Jane Mayer.

Cato Institute scholars have been particularly energetic in promoting the Climategate scandal, per August 2010 The New Yorker article by jane Mayer. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer 16:56, 11 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.102.177.123 (talk)

I'm beginning to have doubts about Jane as fact-checking. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:14, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Yet again more Innuendo, by you, User:Arthur Rubin ... 99.155.148.183 (talk) 04:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Der Spiegel, in a recent article on climate change denialism ("Science as the Enemy" ), focused on Fred Singer, who was in Germany recently for lobbying, and the Marshall Institute. Apparently Singer, Fred Seitz of the Marshall Institute and Patrick Michaels were all consultants for the TASSC, originally a front for the tobacco industry's fight against science. I think the increasing number of press reports in that vein should be covered together and in some detail. Since Der Spiegel didn't mention Norwich that had better happen elsewhere, perhaps at climate change denial. But that still leaves room for a one-or-two-sentence summary of the reporting as it pertains to "Climategate" in the present article. Hans Adler 08:28, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

What I find interesting about the Spiegel article is the description of TASSC's strategy: Reporter sollten angesprochen werden - allerdings nur von Regionalzeitungen, wie es ausdrücklich heißt: "Keine zynischen Journalisten von Leitmedien." (only reporters from local media shall be contacted, not "cynical journalists from the leading media"). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:05, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Leak vs.Theft vs. illegal release

The FAQ for this page says that they should identify that the emails are stolen. However, repeated talk page discussions have failed to find consensus for either "leak" or "theft." A quick google search comes up with roughly equal number of hits for using either term (~53k each) . So both terms are acceptable and supported by reliable sources (don't have the time to dig up actual sources, but there are thousands of words expended arguing between the two in the archived talk page discussions). However, given that both are emotionally charged words, a neutral, NPOV compromise, would be to call it an "illegal release." Calling it either a theft or leak imparts a POV to the article. Sailsbystars (talk) 03:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

See for instance, here or here and I'm sure there are more. See also WP:DEADHORSE. Sailsbystars (talk) 03:59, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

You are correct, and I support your edit. The CBS opinion piece does not belong here and is superseded by better sources. Viriditas (talk) 04:31, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I also support your edit, though I see it has already been reverted. I think I once proposed "unauthorized release", but yours has a better chance to gain consensus, I think. Best, Pete Tillman (talk) 06:21, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

This is a delicate question, but I think "illegal release" is the most balanced suggestion I have seen so far. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 06:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Changed to that version, which appears directly in the official government response on behalf of her Majesty. It would be very impolite to disagree with her! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

"Release", by itself, completely mistates the nature of what happened, and pushing a POV that's not supported by the sources. I think it's been pretty conclusively established that this was not something done by anyone with permission. Hence my revert back to "leaked". I can handle the "illegally released", but I think "leaked" has more support from the sources, and is more NPOV than "illegally leaked". Ravensfire (talk) 14:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Please directly address the points raised above and point to better sources. Viriditas (talk) 20:54, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

The only reliable sources we have on this matter are the University, the police, and the independent investigations. They strongly come down on hacking, illegal release, theft, call it what you like. Without lawful excuse emails were stolen and their contents released.

I think we have to stop pretending to countenance the false notion that speculation in newspapers amounts to a reliable source. It isn't, it's just some bloke on a swivel chair typing stuff into a computer to meet a deadline. --TS 20:58, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Coming at this question from the other direction, the only things we actually know about this is that the emails were released (whether by an insider, making a leak, or an outsider, making it a hack), that the release was unauthorized, and that the release was illegal. The phrase "illegal release" is carefully chosen and should keep people happy, whatever side of the question their personal suspicions lie on. I suspect that Tony and I are diametrically opposed in our opinions as to what probably happened, but we're both happy with "illegal release". Jonathan A Jones (talk) 21:26, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It seems reasonable to go with the official Royal & Ancient United Kingdom report, per Stephan Schulz upthread. Impeccable source. Authority of Her Majesty. Rule, Brittania! Cheers, Pete Tillman (talk) 21:38, 15 October 2010 (UTC), who has (sfaik) no blood of an Englishman up the family tree....

Even The New Yorker (article mentioned in the above section) calls it Climategate scandal and leaked (mysteriously): "Cato scholars have been particularly energetic in promoting the Climategate scandal. Last year, private e-mails of climate scientists at the University of East Anglia, in England, were mysteriously leaked, and their exchanges appeared to suggest a willingness to falsify data in order to buttress the idea that global warming is real." (my bolding). Nsaa (talk) 21:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

And we can also choose sources that call it an illegal theft and hacking. This discussion indicates that a compromise resting comfortably in the middle of what is known and unknown is best. Viriditas (talk) 21:56, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Removal of Climate Change Probation headers

It occurs to me that with the closure of the CC ArbComm case, the climate change probation header at the top of this and other CC talk pages should be removed, since the community sanction has been superseded via Remedy 2. --DGaw (talk) 06:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, we can remove them from every article. --TS 11:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I removed the probation notice and a related 1RR notice. I'll take the 1RR for review at WP:AE to see if admins there think it should be renewed under the discretionary sanctions. --TS 11:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Following up to confirm that this article is remaining under 1RR rule in case anyone missed the change in notice at the top of the page. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 11:46, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

This sounds very BAD. From Conservapedia. Comments?

Starting in February 2003, Connolley set to work on the Misplaced Pages site. He rewrote Misplaced Pages’s articles on global warming, on the greenhouse effect, on the instrumental temperature record, on the urban heat island, on climate models, on global cooling. On Feb. 14, he began to erase the Little Ice Age; on Aug.11, the Medieval Warm Period. In October, he turned his attention to the hockey stick graph. He rewrote articles on the politics of global warming and on the scientists who were skeptical of the band. Richard Lindzen and Fred Singer, two of the world’s most distinguished climate scientists, were among his early targets, followed by others that the band especially hated, such as Willie Soon and Sallie Baliunas of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, authorities on the Medieval Warm Period. All told, Connolley created or rewrote 5,428 unique Misplaced Pages articles. His control over Misplaced Pages was greater still, however, through the role he obtained at Misplaced Pages as a website administrator, which allowed him to act with virtual impunity. When Connolley didn’t like the subject of a certain article, he removed it — more than 500 articles of various descriptions disappeared at his hand. When he disapproved of the arguments that others were making, he often had them barred — over 2,000 Misplaced Pages contributors who ran afoul of him found themselves blocked from making further contributions. Flower taster (talk) 12:33, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

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