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Misuse of Nazi images in an essay

Christopher Connor (talk · contribs) has just created the essay Misplaced Pages:On being Jewish. He has also linked to it from the main BLP policy page and given it the shortcut name WP:JEWISH.

The topic of how we decide which individuals should be considered Jewish for purposes of writing and categorizing Misplaced Pages articles may be the legitimate subject of an essay. However, Christopher Connor has chosen to illustrate his essay with two images. The first of these is an image of Adolf Hitler leading a Nazi military rally or parade, and has been given the caption "a Nazi informs his personal army of the definition of a Jew." The second image is the file "Kiev Jew Killings in Ivangorod 1942" and has been captioned "categorizing an aryan as a mischling is a BLP violation."

The use of these images, with these (or any) captions, to illustrate a Misplaced Pages space essay on categorization, is offensive and reflects a deplorable indifference to the sensitivity of these images and the events they represent. Moreover, this is not the first time Christopher Connor has conducted himself in this manner. Last month, Christopher Connor used the same image of Hitler addressing a rally to illustrate his essay "Misplaced Pages:BLP Nazi" (subsequently moved in toned-down form to Misplaced Pages:BLP zealot). Discussion on Christopher Connor's talkpage and in Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:BLP Nazi should certainly have made it clear to this editor, as if it could ever have been in question, that depictions of Nazi and Holocaust related events are not suited for decorating essays on editing policies.

That Christopher Connor has repeated this behavior suggests to me that this editor is deeply insensitive to the feelings of his colleagues here, and I recommend that he be blocked from editing or, at a minimum, that he be appropriately restricted. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:28, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

• Wow, yeah, that's pretty disgusting. I'd support any restrictions or sanctions anyone placed on him. We don't need that kind of stuff here at Misplaced Pages. Not at all. Writing an essay about Jewishness and then filling it with images of Nazis, including one of Nazis shooting Jewish people is pretty egregious. --Jayron32 05:32, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
  • It's been speedy deleted. Basket of Puppies 05:46, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Trout me if it was the wrong decision. I noticed NYB applied __noindex__ to it, so I restored it, then deleted it again, because I'm fickle like that. Xavexgoem (talk) 05:48, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
      • I don't mind its being deleted. My only concern was that deletion would make it harder for non-admins to follow this ANI discussion regarding the editor who created it, but I put in a brief description of the content above in case of just that eventuality. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:52, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Blocked for 1 week, as well. He'd been warned. Xavexgoem (talk) 05:51, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
      • Good call. Courcelles 06:38, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Why exactly is this user not instead indef blocked?— Dædαlus 07:27, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Eh...I thought about it, but his contribs go back a ways and he doesn't have a history. Hopefully he'll get the hint. Otherwise, yes, indef. Xavexgoem (talk) 07:34, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Indef block until he gets it. There is absolutely no place for that kind of...(I don't even know what he was trying to do there, extraordinarily dark "humor" possibly)...anywhere on this encyclopedia. Indef block and wait for a full apology. This is a second occurrence. N419BH 08:17, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
      • An apology? Xavexgoem (talk) 18:06, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support one-week block. Not the first time this has happened and given prior warnings it's reasonable. Opposed to indef-blocking a perfectly okay content contributor based on just this, but CC must treat this as his very last warning, or an indef would be very deserved and appropriate. StrPby (talk) 08:39, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Both the one-week block or an indef block until the user demonstrates that he understands the problem are (or would have been) an appropriate reaction.  Sandstein  11:05, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• I can't see the deleted page, but based on NYB's description and the earlier "BLP Nazi" page (which I did see), one week seems to be appropriate to drive the message home. Hans Adler 11:42, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• A week sounds ok to me. Having peeked at the essay, didn't bother to read it through, given I found it so... ugly, guess it looked to me kind of like where failed sarcasm falls splat across the pale into trolling. en.WP's not censored but nor is it "ED II, the Unleashed." Gwen Gale (talk) 12:14, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Actually, without the at best entirely thoughtlessly and provocatively chosen images and captions, there might have been a point to be made here, albeit that it's not, in reality, specific to Jewishness by any stretch of the imagination. For those non-administrators who cannot read the now-deleted revisions: Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive97#Ed Miliband, Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive645#Allegation of antisemitism, and Ed Miliband (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) were the primary drivers of this particular case. You don't really need the deleted page to see the issue and the argument, which was re-hashed here from the BLP Noticeboard and article talk page in an almost canonically ill-thought Godwin's Law manner. Uncle G (talk) 12:18, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Just want to add here that there was some other strangeness recently, when he wrote an article about, and was half pretending to be, this Christopher Connor. Submitted it for DYK, said he was particularly keen to have it used, then refused to answer questions, there and on the COI board, from people wanting to make sure he was a different Christopher Connor. Discussions here and here. It was a minor thing, but it was odd. He declined even to acknowledge that people were asking him a question. SlimVirgin 12:39, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
  • I thought at the time that that might have been being deliberately silent to make the point that according to Project:Outing an editor is not obliged to answer questions as to xyr identity, and that it's a little foolish to assume that there's just one "Christopher Connor" in the world. Or that someone's "conflict of interest" may extend only as far as having an interest in writing the articles about encyclopaedic people that happen to share xyr name. It seems that I was right. Uncle G (talk) 13:07, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Unblock request

Christopher has now apologised and agreed not to repeat his actions in an unblock request on his talk page. I think with his previously clean record, we should give him this chance. StrPby (talk) 12:13, 15 November 2010 (UTC) :I concur. The article text and the images are at odds with each other as the text was not racist nor baiting but seemed to be an attempt tp clarify and help some BLP issues. The images were clearly beyond the line and the block seems to have gotten his attention. JodyB _talk 12:21, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Unblocking. After the reading the diffs below I must conclude that this is a pattern of insensitivity. Although his block log was previously clean there is ample evidence that he has been and remains clueless. JodyB<subBold text> talk 14:13, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

I do agree there, the images are what hurled it over the line. If he'd further say he'll be more careful with any images he uses in hoped for irony, I'd see no need to keep the block. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:28, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

I've come to oppose an unblock, given CC's later answers on his talk page left me neutral but mostly because I wasn't aware of the DYK diffs shown by iridescent. Taken altogether, I've meaningful worries he may not have made these edits for encyclopedic reasons. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:00, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

• I think I oppose an unblock. "Categorising an Aryan as a Mischling is a BLP violation" under an image of Jews being executed by the Einsatzgruppen. Hard to know how to describe that if not as baiting. SlimVirgin 12:45, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

I recall that caption. I took it as sarcasm which was so startlingly botched, it indeed looked like trolling, but likely was not. I think almost all sarcasm is baiting in some way. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:51, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose unblock without question after seeing Iridescent's diffs, especially SlimVirgin 13:45, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose unblock—so let's recap: this guy writes an essay at WP:JEWISH, which he illustrates with images of Hitler and the Nazis. He is blocked for a week. He says sorry. We unblock him after seven hours. Seriously... no. I cannot imagine any good faith explanation for his actions, other than possibly the most serious case of gross insensitivity I've come across in a long while.
  In fact, the case, bears a striking similarity to Berlusconi saying that he shouldn't be blamed for telling a Holocaust joke in a speech; rather, "the bad taste was in those who published it."
  This guy seriously needs a block for more than a few hours to demonstrate to him that the project doesn't consider this sort of thing acceptable, thus preventing further future disruption. ╟─TreasuryTag►Speaker─╢ 13:03, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

  But blocks aren't punitive, and he knows that if he messes up again he'll likely end up indef-blocked. So what's the harm? StrPby (talk) 13:04, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

  The harm comes from us sending out a message that blocks for the most outragoeous behaviour will be overturned within a couple of hours if the perpetrator says, "Oh, I'm tho thorry I made a mithtake." We need to make it plain to this editor that we will not tolerate actions such as the ones they took; if we do not make this plain, it is plausible or even likely that they will repeat them. And by unblocking this soon, it looks suspiciously like toleration to me.
  The let's-unblock-and-then-if-they-do-it-again-reblock argument should really only apply to behaviours which the person involved didn't know were problematic at the time. But this guy must have known that his Nazi snaps were inappropriate. ╟─TreasuryTag►quaestor─╢ 13:10, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose unblock. Lord help me, but I'm actually going to agree with TreasuryTag on something; an unblock for something which no reasonable person could have considered legitimate sends out the wrong message about Misplaced Pages's values and aims. This isn't a one off incident (, , , ); this looks to be someone with an agenda. – iridescent 13:19, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock Frankly, I one of the first to say Misplaced Pages can be over sensitive to Jewish sensibilities and throw round anti-Semitism charges far too quickly, which tends to have a chilling effect. However, this editor is clearly over the line. This is trolling. An apology might be good enough, if it had been a case of "he's learnt his lesson", but he was heavily criticised for his Misplaced Pages:BLP Nazi recently, and had evidently not taken the hind. A week block is very lenient, and should be served. Next time, I'd propose an outright ban.--Scott Mac 13:39, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
  • On the boosterism problem: Can either of the two of you remember where the criticism was that Misplaced Pages biographies tended to start in their first sentences with a whole string of religious, ethnic, sexual, and geographic associations, each with reams of citation cross-links, before even getting to the important stuff about a person for which they are actually known? I think that we already have a non-Godwinized essay on the general subject, which is far from specific to Jewishness, but I cannot remember where I saw it. Uncle G (talk) 13:55, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock. I fully endorse every word of iridescent's rationale. Hans Adler 13:40, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock This Editor is not a a noob, Mr. Connor knows our norms here. Especially on the heels of the BLP nazi incident. Commons sense should have WP:CLUED him in. Its not rocket science to figure out that having an essay filled with images nazi would cause an adverse reaction with out the essay being called Misplaced Pages:On being Jewish. We are extremely lucky one of us found it and not the Media or a one of the many Jewish advocacy groups. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 14:06, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock - User should be on a short leach also when it expires. Off2riorob (talk) 14:16, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock. What Iridescent said, and the diffs Iridescent provided. Saebvn (talk) 14:30, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock I agree with Iridescent. There is something not quite right here. In addition to the diffs Irridesent gave, there are many other questionable edits, for example just recently a DYK with unnecessary details of a lynching. In the diff where he created Jewish lawyer stereotype, he claimed to be one. That article has problems going back to its creation: Shylock evidently was not a lawyer in the Merchant of Venice (the "lawyer" in the play was of the fairer sex). Thank goodness he forgot Peter Taylor, Baron Taylor of Gosforth in that first irksome diff. Was it some kind of bad taste joke? Mathsci (talk) 14:49, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
  • When Christopher Connor created that article, it was actually entitled Jewish lawyer. Uncle G (talk) 15:12, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
    • That doesn't help very much, does it? Mathsci (talk) 19:35, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
      • There was relevant discussion at User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 65#Jewish lawyer, which was more about the article in general and an edit that Jimbo had made to it, and his belief that it needed to be made clear that the article was about a stereotype, which was part of the impetus for this proposal (by me): Talk:Jewish lawyer stereotype#Name change? (though of course "stereotype" was not in the title at the time.) The whole article was (and remains) at least a little disturbing, but at least the title is better. The discussion also had the collateral benefit of getting Jewish mother renamed to Jewish mother stereotype, though that is a much older article and Christopher Connor does not seem to have been involved in that one. Neutron (talk) 21:14, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
        • Renamed back to Jewish mother stereotype note. Uncle G (talk) 02:09, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock. I edit conflicted with Gwen Gale on declining the request. Editors have expressed concern over his edits in the past, in relation to DYK hooks and elsewhere, and those concerns should have given him pause - but did not. I appreciate that this editor works on articles where few editors are wont to tread, but that doesn't give him license for these edits. It may be helpful if he were able to show that he understands why everyone is so upset over this incident, and the previous ones, before requesting unblock again. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 15:23, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock at the moment. I'm not convinced the content was intended to be as bad as it was, but intent only gets you so far. Also, it's not necessarily racist to point out that "x% of people arrested for jaywalking are Lower Slobovian", if the police have a predilection to bust Lower Slobovians and let Upper Ombrians slide. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:04, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock It's pretty clear from his talk page that he doesn't get it and is blaming everyone else for the mess he finds himself in. N419BH 19:02, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock per Iridescent's diffs. There is also something ineluctably weird about the apology itself. Not buying that. Bishonen | talk 03:45, 16 November 2010 (UTC).
• Oppose unblock per Iridescent's diffs, and the fact that the essay was entirely inappropriate and a simple apology is not enough. —mc10 (u|t|c) 05:38, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock An apology is not enough. Inka 18:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Up to indef

My reading of the discussion above, especially the comment by Mathsci, is that we cannot trust this editor not to engage in subtle vandalism to insert anti-Jewish rhetoric into Misplaced Pages. Jehochman 14:54, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

• support the diffs by Iridescent show crystal clear agenda that is harmful to wikipedia. The Article created log makes the pattern even more disturbing The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 15:01, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
  • What harmful agenda is being revealed by 2004 European Open (snooker), Smolarek, Personality of the year, Protection of Children Act, draw sheet, and Climbié? Uncle G (talk) 15:12, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
    • I said the diffs provided by Iridescent, show an agenda. Creating articles like Indigenous Australians and crime, Talk:Black people and crime in the United Kingdom, Lynching of Ell Persons, Jewish lawyer, The Color of Crime, Racial hoax, Criminal black man stereotype combined with Today's Nazi page show a troubling pattern which i think can be reasonably identfied as an agenda. I could also support the Topic Ban as well which would probably solve my concerns as well. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 16:13, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
      • You also said that that agenda was part of a pattern shown by the likes of List of Israeli ambassadors to France, 2004 Grand Prix (snooker), Society for Anglo-Chinese Understanding, and 2007 A.S. Roma–Manchester United F.C. conflict. These are your examples, that you pointed to, remember. Moreover, what's "troubling" about racial hoax? You seem to be conflating an interest in race relations topics with some sort of unspecified "troubling" racialist agenda. Have you not thought that you're proving Christopher Connor right? Write about race relations topics, and people will not look further than the titles and accuse one of racism. What's "troubling" about education.gov.uk? What's "disturbing" about Stationary office? What harmful pattern is Office of the Children's Commissioner revealing? ‎ Uncle G (talk) 17:05, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
        • I am not saying Stationary office is a bad article thats a straw man. Singularly Nothing here is "bad." But combine with the creation of the the articles I specified combined with the diffs Iridescent's. I dont think its unreasonable to have concerns of pattern. I would love to assume no clue but all this together looks suspicious. Take this DYK suggestion I am looking at a dozen less provocative facts that could have been used in the Article same with Black people and crime in the United Kingdom. The conversation that followed indicates he doesnt get it why people might have an adverse reaction. I am NOT saying he is a single purpose account to promote racists views on Misplaced Pages. But I have to question what he is thinking when he does pulls stunts like what I discussed above becuase I have a hard time believing and Editor can be that Clueless. I said I would be willing to accept a topic ban as alternative but some of his editing patters do raise flags in my book The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 17:51, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Weak opposeHaving read others comments a critique of my arguements and some thought off Wiki. i have stricken by support of topic ban. I still have serrious reservations about this editor but a topic ban seem to more appropriate for now. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 20:03, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose I support the block for the present essay creation (and the BLP nazi one earlier). However, I'm not seeing a pattern of vandalism. I'm seeing a number of politically incorrect editing interests, and nominations, but nothing more. Has been inserting stuff unsupported by sources? Perhaps he's being deliberately provocative — but I've seen worse. The essays are over the line, and he needs to get it, and not repeat it. But I don't want to ban for being offending liberal sensitivities.--Scott Mac 15:23, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support, broadly per my comments above. ╟─TreasuryTag►Africa, Asia and the UN─╢ 15:37, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose at this time.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:01, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support His unblock request clearly demonstrates his lack of sincere apology, including a non-apology apology. It is clear he does not appreciate the horror of his actions have caused. No small number of my family were murdered in the Holocaust. I strongly support an indefinite block and severe future sanctions. Basket of Puppies 16:53, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - No block history, quite a few contribs. User had not been sufficiently warned for an indef. Remember that he's blocked for provocation, not for being anti-semitic (or generally white-supremacist), and it's just too easy to conflate things when reading his apologies or unblock requests. Xavexgoem (talk) 17:53, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support I doubt this will gain consensus, but it appears this user is doing quite a bit of race baiting here. If this isn't enacted, a topic ban is definitely in order. AniMate 18:10, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose indef for now. Block log was clean, I don't think it's fair to indef without warning an editor who in over 3 1/2 years has made over 3000 edits with few if any kerfuffles. At the very least, he has tried to sensationalize some racial articles and two essays and this is worrisome, but edits to racial topics have been a small slice of his editing history. His answers to questions about his edits tend to be a bit coy for me, it may be how he is though, I don't know, but it's why I don't support an unblock. The week long block may be needed, giving him time to think things over. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:57, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose indef block. Although I agree that some of this user's edits, and his lack of comprehensive explanations for them, are disturbing, the level of disruption is not very high. This is his first block and a repetition of this behaviour would quickly lead to a much longer block. I do not believe this editor engages in, or is likely to engage in, subtle vandalism to push any particular viewpoint; in fact he engages in somewhat odd borderline trolling and introduction of controversial material for unknown reasons. If he were trying to push a viewpoint, he would not be deliberately courting controversy as he appears to have done on occasion --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:57, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

(clarifying my comment - I should have said "the level of disruption is not very high when compared with the constructive contributions" - I was not suggesting that the offensive behaviour itself was insignificant, even if not intended to be offensive) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:45, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose let's not get ahead of ourselves. Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:51, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose Not yet. Inka 22:09, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Response to this thread by Christopher Connor

On his talk page. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:06, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

• Here's the whole thread on his talk page: User_talk:Christopher_Connor#Block_note

Regarding "But simply proposing those hooks is, according to ANI, racist. That seems to me to be twisted", you've had it explained to you (repeatedly) what the issue is, but each time go into WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT mode; see the discussion here for instance. You're cherry-picking facts (e.g. "15.7% of those convicted for homicide in Australia are indigenous", "indigenous Australians make up 2% of the population"), disregarding other information (differential conviction rates, relative probabilities of success of police investigations in close-knit communities vs large urban areas) to come up with the synthesis of "Indigenous Australians committed 15.7 percent of homicides in Australia". If this was a one-off incident then yes, these things happen, but as you yourself recognize you have a long history of being warned for inappropriate comments and suggestions (from most people I'd take this as a ham-fisted joke, but in this case I'm not sure), but your response seems always to be that the problem is with everyone else, not yourself. – iridescent 15:23, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion - topic ban

I suggest letting the week long block stand, and then imposing (preferably with his agreement) a topic restriction on all race-related content, commentary and comment. He also should not initiate any new essays without consulting others as to their appropriateness.--Scott Mac 15:29, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

"Without consulting others" is a woolly and meaningless phrase which is essentially courting disaster. Needs tightening. ╟─TreasuryTag►You may go away now.─╢ 15:38, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree; just make it clear that he's prohibited from initiating new essays at all if he cannot be trusted, or throw the last line out altogether. As for essays relating to race, that's covered by the first part of the topic restriction. Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:57, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Supportin lieu of full of indef block this seems to be a good alternative The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 16:14, 15 November 2010 (UTC) This seems to be the most reasonable action for now The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 20:06, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Support the topic ban. The nature of the restriction on creating essays needs to be made clearer, if there is to be a restriction at all.--Korruski 16:33, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Support the topic ban, can't see the point of the essay thing (assuming the topic ban wld preclude essays dealing with race/ethnicity issues)appears to be more a problem of pushing peoples buttons occassionaly, hopefully the block will get the message thru--Misarxist 17:17, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Support The block should stand, and if an indef block isn't applied he should at the very least be restricted from all race related topics. AniMate 18:08, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Support, strongly. Basket of Puppies 18:16, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Support ban on racial topics/edits, broadly construed, throughout the en.WP space, which he can ask to be lifted after 3-6 months. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:03, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Support Good solution. As others have said, it should be broadly interpreted so as to include all the problematic articles mentioned so far. Mathsci (talk) 19:56, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Support, but... when I read this whole thread, User:Wassermann, indefblocked since June 2009, kept popping into my head. You remember Wassermann's incessant bad-faith category lawyering? Connor's ban must, apart from articles and essays, include categories, very broadly construed; i.e. he doesn't get to add categories touching on nationality or ethnicity in any way. We need to set something up that doesn't take up too much of the time and energy of other editors to check on and argue about. Do we also need to make a sock check? I'm asking, not accusing; not being much good with socks. Bishonen | talk 04:28, 16 November 2010 (UTC).

Comment A broad topic ban across the en.WP space would mean categories were out of bounds, too. So long as the ban was broadly racial/ethnicity, I think that would cover any contentious nationality cats. A topic ban needs to be simple and straightforward, easy to understand and follow, otherwise breaches and a long block are more or less foregone, I think. Gwen Gale (talk) 11:14, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Support - The essay alone shows he can't be trusted in this area, let alone the other dubious edits he's made. Skinny87 (talk) 08:30, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Support The diffs provided above show the editor is using Misplaced Pages to push an inappropriate agenda: if there is no indef block and no one is volunteering to closely monitor the editor, a strong topic ban is required to avoid further wasted time. Johnuniq (talk) 09:26, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - have you looked at the article he created on the Lynching of Ell Persons?--Toddy1 (talk) 16:26, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment Yes, that was a worthwhile contribution to the project. I could support a time limited topic ban to allow him to edit constructively in areas unrelated to race and to gain some trust and more understanding of policy, perhaps three months? Off2riorob (talk) 16:44, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment The article does not bear close scrutiny. Much of it is written using primary sources (contemporary newspaper reports from 1917) rather than paraphrasing summaries of the material from secondary sources. There is a problem with the whole of the first three paragraphs of the main text: they fail WP:V and WP:RS; they are WP:SYNTH and WP:OR pieced together from local newspaper reports at the time. I tried to check the statements about the theories of Alphonse Bertillon (seeing the image of the murder in the dead girl's pupils): I found nothing in the 2001 Law Review. One published article relates : "The most convincing evidence against Persons was an alleged photograph of Antoinette Rappel’s decapitated head in which Officer Paul Waggner claimed to see Person’s forehead in the victim’s retina." I did find a report that Waggner was trained in "Bertillon technique" in an uncited 1928 Ph.D. (J.R. Steelman), But that is not what can be read in the article. Similar questionable edits on lynchings precipitated the indefinite block of MoritzB (talk · contribs) in 2007, also discussed here on ANI. Elsewhere this editor uses "google translate" to access French documents and has not so far noticed that "Par" is not a first name in French. There is something not quite right in all of this. Mathsci (talk) 01:23, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Mainstream newspaper reports are accepted by Misplaced Pages as reliable sources WP:NEWSORG.--Toddy1 (talk) 05:17, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Local newspapers in Memphis in 1917 in the days of segregation? You must be joking. Mathsci (talk) 05:24, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose per Toddy1. Just let the block expire as planned.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:19, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Support - A single article does not automatically make him a constructive editor. I'm going to need more than that to prove he's able to keep his opinions to himself. Given the essay, I don't think that's going to happen.. not to mention his past behavior. It's a problem that he can't figure out, and thus cannot be trusted with. Support topic ban per Toddy1.— Dædαlus 21:50, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose In a nutshell, this situation is too complex at this moment for a simple solution like this. What puzzles me about this issue is that, prima facie, except for the images used I found nothing objectionable to this user's now-deleted essay: it was a a banal restatement of a number of such truisms as a proposed definition for labelling someone a Jew, that being identified as a Jew can be controversial, etc. This does not mean I endorse the essay: I just don't see why anyone would bother to write it, thus leading me to suspect that there is something in it only someone familiar with anti-Semitic hate speech would catch. (And while the apology on his Talk page isn't exactly what I'd label a "non-apology apology", it isn't what I'd expect to see in a sincere apology either.) In other words, this guy seems to be playing games with the rules, & while I can't say what his intent could be I don't entirely trust him. Subjecting him to anything but the simplest & clearest restrictions will only make the rest of us work harder to sanction him if it becomes clear that he is harming Misplaced Pages. I believe letting him come back after a week with no new restrictions -- but keeping an eye on him -- will be the simplest & best solution. If this guy pulls another stunt like that essay, we can then ban him for good without needing to take any further steps; if he is editting in good faith, & this was simply a case where he was putting his foot in his mouth, then all of us can step away from this with no unintended bitterness or dramaz & move on to better things. -- llywrch (talk) 23:19, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Support The hastily-applied air-freshener spray doesn't cover up the stink. Plutonium27 (talk) 20:15, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Supportish - Editor should be allowed to submit work via proxy editor if that work is acceptable within an article (I'd volunteer). It walks and quacks like a duck, but is it a duck? If that's the impression that's been created, perhaps some sort of absolvency (<-- new word) should be permitted. Xavexgoem (talk) 09:57, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose: seems overkill per those opposing above. -Atmoz (talk) 13:53, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose: Text of deleted item is innocuous in the extreme - sans the images this is storm in teacup. Rich Farmbrough, 22:52, 18 November 2010 (UTC).

Oppose llywrch sums it up nicely. He's wikilawyering, no need to give him more rules to lawyer about. If he steps over the line again he can be tossed. -- ۩ Mask 03:48, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Putting those images in the essay was tasteless, but I don’t think it’s been demonstrated that he’s actually unable to contribute to race-related articles in a neutral manner. Having created several articles related to racial stereotypes (such as those linked to by ResidentAnthropologist) doesn’t demonstrate an agenda if the articles are about notable topics and don’t give undue prominence to minority views. And if they do, that hasn’t been demonstrated in this thread. Since Christopher Conner has no prior blocks, he may have learned the lesson that he needed to from this block. We should wait and see whether he has after the block expires. --Captain Occam (talk) 20:56, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Legal threat from User:Peace is contagious

Peace is contagious (talk · contribs) has made a legal threat to "sue for libel" here. Despite being asked to retract it by Doc9871 (talk · contribs) here, the user has not. Yworo (talk) 15:30, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Since I'm not (Kyle Baker) the subject in question over the line 'I lie all the time', I was informed that I cannot sue (anyone) for libel. So this issue is moot. And the line seems to now be in context within the article, instead of randomly placed near the end. Yworo seems to be an over-zealous comic book fan. (SIGH) Cheers! Peace is contagious (talk) 16:09, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Peace you have been asked to remove it, unless you do that and retract it, you will likely be blocked (again) wikipedia takes legal threats very seriously. Off2riorob (talk) 16:13, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Near of the end of User talk:Peace is contagious, at 16:53, 16 November 2010, 40 minutes after the above, User:Peace is contagious again makes legal accusations against me: "Mr Tenebrae seems to be a bit slack w/ his Wiki edits, if not even libelous. I suggest u take a few law school classes urself, sir."

As someone who has indeed taken classes in journalism and the law, I can tell you the first thing you learn is, "Truth is not libelous."

In any event, Peace is contagious himself expanded on the quote and moved it to a section of the article where it fits perfectly well. He did this at 15:16, 16 November 2010 — so even after doing so, when presumably the quote is no longer an issue with him, he specifically returned an hour and half later to made his accusation against me. That just seems gratuitous and a late shot, for no reason other than to maliciously attack another editor. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:52, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

• I'd point out the irony of someone with the name "Peace is contagious" threatening anyone with anything, but I think you all get it. HalfShadow 17:59, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep in mind the old satirical definition of peace: "Short period of preparation for the next war." ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:07, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

I think with the excuse that the editor isn't somebody else doesn't matter. A threat to sue is there and not retracted so I think no legal threats needs to be applied to get the point across much stronger. This is not a game to play which is what it is starting to look like with doing it again an hour and half later. Make sure this time it get through, no legal threats are allowed, period. --CrohnieGal 17:58, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Legal threats are not to be tolerated, and the editor refuses to retract. So why is the editor not yet blocked? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:50, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, that is indeed a very good question Bugs. Off2riorob (talk) 19:56, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

And now answered by an admin. He gawn (until or if he retracts). ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:43, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Though currently banned, he's still threatening me

In [his latest post (scroll down), User:Peace is contagious again threatens me ("He SHOULD fear being sued").

In addition, he calls me and other editors names, and makes fun of an editor's person's appearance ("C'mon look at the picture of the dude who blocked me").

I have serious qualms about this person. He's been asked by several editors to be civil, he's been linked the policy / guideline, which he dismisses as "not set in stone," and shows contempt for Misplaced Pages and its editor, to wit: "obviously if these people were 'smarter' they wouldn't be wasting time on Misplaced Pages."

He has caused nothing but disruption. His posts have done little but spew venom and weirdly rambling diatribes. I believe reasonable consideration can be given to a long-term ban (his indefinite ban can be lifted if he retracts his legal threats, which leaves his insults free and clear) or a block. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:13, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

"I'll remove the comment, simply cuz I want to edit other pages, but I'll put it right back if anyone should choose to be irresponsibly libelous, as it should be" sounds pretty "unpromising". This was in this latest post, and the original threat still remains (despite extensively refactoring the comments of others yet again). Doc talk 21:55, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I have advised him that if he repeats that kind of edit, I will remove access to his talkpage.Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:29, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Not only that, but moments after Elen of the Roads posted, Peace is contagious deleted that and the last several posts that civilly and quite politely requested him to remove his legal threats and his insults, name-calling, and making fun of people's appearance. But he deleted all that here and left only his own remarks, which, now out of context, makes it appear that because non-admin are commenting that he does not have need to listen to comments/requests for policy-adherence and civil behavior. I honestly don't see any reason for him to continue haranguing others as if by right.--Tenebrae (talk) 19:43, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

He also deleted a post from Elen (which she repeats above), who had failed to sign her post. It's fairly clear he has no intention of changing anything on his end. Might be starting to. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:47, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I have taken something of a flyer and unblocked him. I think he removed my post in error, I think he also misunderstood the non-hierarchical nature of the Misplaced Pages community. If my faith is misplaced, you have my permission to hit me with a wet fish Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:44, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

IP obsessed by birds...?

I've been doing some vandalism patrolling and come across an IP editor making edits to a large number of Birds in (A Country) articles. No edit summary, and I have no idea if this is vandalism or not, but thought I should raise it. See Special:Contributions/96.4.125.2. I asked on the talk page but no response although edits have continued. The IP is from a US school and came off a year block about 3 days ago. Please could someone have a look? Mechanical digger (talk) 19:03, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

It appears they do not understand the term extirpation and are removing it and replacing it with extinct. Should probably use twinkle rollback AGF and leave a note explaining the terminology. N419BH 19:23, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

98.65.217.30 (talk · contribs) was making similar edits a couple of days ago too. The edits are similar to what the IP was blocked for last year too. I'll start rollbacking as the edits are clearly incorrect but any help would be nice. SmartSE (talk) 21:35, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

All rolled back 68 pages in total. I can't explain biodiversity well some one wanna leave the note? The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 22:34, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks all. I left another note, perhaps lacking in zoological technicalities but sufficient if they ever read the talk page and decide to engage with others. Mechanical digger (talk) 02:27, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

He just did the same thing to two more today... Can We get a Block laid down before he starts another spree?The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 22:21, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

...and a few more. They've been AGF reverted. N419BH 23:50, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Now blocked I think. Rich Farmbrough, 22:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC).

AndresHerutJaim and repeated copyright violations

Warned But today did it all over again. I am not going to bother adding the diffs since his recent contribs show it plain as day. Repeated copyright violators are supposed to be blocked. I am sick of cleaning up his mess and he has already been to ANI once for it.Cptnono (talk) 05:27, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I would have to agree with this. AndresHerutJaim is a long-term abuser of non-free images, over and over he adds them to the same articles and ignores all requests to stop. O Fenian (talk) 17:25, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

And he has done it again. That is not a sufficent FUR for multiple articles. And just to be open, a couple good edits got caught up in my cleaning house. Apologies.Cptnono (talk) 05:34, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

But wow, nothing? Still? Resolve templates below and plenty of time. I might as well upload kiddie porn sine admins still don't care about images for whatever reason.Cptnono (talk) 07:13, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive640#User:AndresHerutJaim and images, User talk:AndresHerutJaim#Images and User talk:AndresHerutJaim#Using fair use images as icons. This editor is little more than a single purpose account abusing fair use images, and still did so after being notified of this thread and did not even reply here. How much longer is this going to be allowed to go on for? O Fenian (talk) 09:43, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

24hrs and nothing on a clear cut case. Admins at ANI only want to see drama and the ones off ANI don't see the simple request. Cptnono (talk) 05:55, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Being as your warnings are starting to boil down to "...please fuck off...", I think a closer eye should be kept on you. HalfShadow 06:17, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

They are not "warnings". It is acceptable under NPA and precedent across wikipidea. That is an unrelated issue isn't it? So with this issue does an admin have any thoughts? Copyright is copyright regardless if I told some one to fuck off or not.Cptnono (talk) 06:28, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd point out the irony of you understanding copyright but not seeing a problem with telling someone to fuck off, but I have this terrible feeling it would go right over your head... HalfShadow 06:31, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd point out the irony in your passive aggressive comment... oh wait I just did. NPA is loose. Copyright is not. Is there any excuse or are you just arguing since your revert of someone else's comment was reverted? Knock it off. Copyright is nonnegotiable. End of story. He should have been blocked yesterday and any admin who read this yesterday should feel bad for not doing it.Cptnono (talk) 06:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Ckatz and Destinero

I ask to check behaviour of Ckatz_spy who repeatedly disrupts Misplaced Pages article American College of Pediatricians by removing facts documented by highly reliable expert source simply since he don't like those facts and threats me on my talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Destinero#November_2010 --Destinero (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I've never had problems with Ckatz before that I recall, but this does seem odd and inappropriate on Ckatz' part. I don't understand the reasoning behind this removal at all. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:33, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

At first sight, Destinero and Ckatz appear to be edit warring at American College of Pediatricians. Ckatz may consider that his actions are justified by his admin role, since he is taking out a passage that deplores the ACP in Misplaced Pages's voice, and which uses a reference linked to a primary source, a brief that was filed in a court case, though some of the participating organizations might have published their views elsewhere. Some of the language Ckatz was removing was "This small faction's views are out of step with the overwhelming body of scholarly research-based positions.." This is being stated in Misplaced Pages's voice as a matter of fact about the American College of Pediatricians. At a minimum, the language needs fixing for neutrality, and a legal brief should probably not be cited. EdJohnston (talk) 18:50, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE policy specifically requires: "In articles specifically about a minority viewpoint, views may receive more attention and space. However, such pages should still make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant and must not represent content strictly from the perspective of the minority view. Specifically, it should always be clear which parts of the text describe the minority view. In addition, the majority view should be explained in sufficient detail that the reader can understand how the minority view differs from it, and controversies regarding aspects of the minority view should be clearly identified and explained. How much detail is required depends on the subject. Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Misplaced Pages editors or the general public."

WP:GEVAL policy specifically requires: "While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Misplaced Pages policy does not state or imply that every minority view or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship. There are many such beliefs in the world, some popular and some little-known: claims that the Earth is flat, that the Knights Templar possessed the Holy Grail, that the Apollo moon landings were a hoax, and similar. Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or even plausible but currently unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit them where including them would unduly legitimize them, and otherwise describe them in their proper context with respect to established scholarship and the beliefs of the greater world."

Please, explain and clarify what exactly should be fixed for neutrality in current version of the page: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=American_College_of_Pediatricians&diff=397345997&oldid=397268492 I consider it fully in compliance with Misplaced Pages standards. --Destinero (talk) 19:02, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree. Destinero needs to stop the edit warring and justify the changes they want to make. They appear to be inserting analysis not supported by the supplied source. Franamax (talk) 18:59, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Are you serious? Amici curiae (National Association of Social Workers, National Association of Social Workers - West Virginia Chapter, Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute, North American Council on Adoptable Children, and West Virginia Coalition Against Domestic Violence) are national and West Virginian organization dedicated to the welfare of children. "Amici sumbit this brief to (a) inform the Court of the extensive body of social science research demonstrating that children raised by same-sex couples develop just as well, and are as healthy and well-adjusted as children raised by heterosexual couples; (b) show the Court that this research has been embranced by every authoritative professional organization devoted to the health and welfare of children." (page 1) "Every authoritative child welfare and child health organization of which amici are aware recognizes, and an overhelming body of scholarly research demonstrates, that children fare just as well in families with same-sex parents as in families with heterosexual parents." (page 10) "Every leading professinal child health and child welfare organization recognizes that sexual orientation has no correlation with the ability to be a good parent and raise healthy and well-adjusted childre. The policy statements issued by these organizations reflect their professional experiences and their expert reviews of the research related to the effects of parenting by gay men and lesbians on childhood development. The statements are striking in their unanimous rejection of the assumption that optimal development requires heterosexual parents. Indeed, amici are unaware of any authoritative child welfare or medical organization that gas taken a contrary view of the research and policy implications." (page 12) "A group of approximately 60 of AAP´s more than 60,00 members opposed APP´s adoption of this policy and in dissent, formed the "American College of Pediatricians" ("ACP") in 2002. This small and marginal group has filed an amicus brief in support of Respondents in keeping with the ACP´s position that "it is inappropriate, potentially hazardous to children, and dangerously irresponsible to change the age-old prohibition on homosexual parenting, whether by adoption, foster care, or by reproductive manipulation." Dr. Joseph Zanga, one of ACP´s charter members, has described the ACP as a group "with Judeo-Christian, traditional values that is open to pediatric medical professionals of all religions who hold true to the group´s core beliefs: that life begins at conception; and that the traditional family unit, headed by an opposite-sex couple, poses far fewer risk factors in the adoption and raising of childre." "This small faction´s views are out of step with the research-based positions of the AAP and other medical and child welfare authorities." (page 15) http://www.state.wv.us/wvsca/briefs/march09/34618SocialWorkers.pdf

Thus, to put it simply, there can not be absolutely any doubts I contributed solely the facts supported by the most credible expert sources in the field describe the views of ACP "in their proper context with respect to established scholarship" as fundamental Misplaced Pages policies reqires. --Destinero (talk) 19:26, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Neither one has posted anything to the talk page. Destinero, there's no question in my mind that the lead should include something along the lines of what you are adding -- but you're going to have to work it out on the talk page, and what you have been adding can't be framed in the voice of Misplaced Pages itself. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:21, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment While it is certainly premature to do so, I'm not surprised to see that Destinero has brought this matter here. Frankly, I think it is probably best that there is a chance for more eyes to look at the situation. I'll state categorically that this is not a "POV" or disruptive move on my part; a simple check of the article's edit history will show that I've no real interest in the topic. My concerns here - and with several other articles that touch on the same subject matter - lies in Destinero's approach to editing on Misplaced Pages. I have had to intercede on numerous occasions with regard to his habits, which often as not involve adding POV, non-neutral material to articles that reflect his personal pers\pective on the matter. The worst instances of this have involved incidents where he has dropped boiler-plate text into a series of articles, and where he has misused sources as references for a message he wants to get across. Please note this excerpt from the text , which demonstrates the nature of the problem:

"This small faction's views are out of step with the overwhelming body of scholarly research-based positions of the American Academy of Pediatrics and other medical and child welfare authorities recognizing that sexual orientation has no correlation with the ability to be a good parent and raise healthy and well-adjusted children."

Destinero likes to insert loaded terminology into articles; in this case, "out of step" and "small faction" are used to dismiss the organization in question. My apologies if my edit summaries were lacking in this case, but after a long period of dealing with the same problems one can sometimes get frustrated. Please feel free to ask any questions you might have; again, I would really appreciate it if more people could review Destinero's edit history with regard to these types of edits. --Ckatz_spy 19:25, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Please stop acusing me of liking loaded terminology when I showed here that I contributed solely the facts presented by the national and West Virginian organization dedicated to the welfare of children including the largest social work association in the world to the Court, all of which can be everytime checked by everybody. I am expecting your apology since you not able to support by reliable sources how views of ACP are not out of step with the overwhelming body of scholarly research-based positions of the American Academy of Pediatrics and other medical and child welfare authorities recognizing that sexual orientation has no correlation with the ability to be a good parent and raise healthy and well-adjusted children (see LGBT parenting article for details on decades of conclusive and widely-accepted research on the issue) and you are not able to explain how ACP founded in 2002 by 60 charter members are not small faction in comparison with American Academy of Pediatrics with 60,000 members and all other mainstream expert bodies in the field including National Association of Social Workers (150,000 members), American Psychological Association (150,000 members), American Psychiatric Association (40,000 members) etc. --Destinero (talk) 19:48, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Destinero, since this entire discussion ought to be taking place at the article talk page and you still haven't started any discussion there, I doubt you'll get the apology you are seeking. Again, you can probably add something along the lines of what you are after, but go away and do it the right way. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:14, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

• Why is this discussed here and not on the article talk page? There's zero discussion about this issue there. Tijfo098 (talk) 19:29, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

• Probably because this is indeed a user conduct issue: In my experience, (a) edit-warring to insert a patently inappropriate POV (sourced to a brief in a lawsuit!) into an article, and (b) wall-of-text-ranting about it on noticeboards are the classical symptoms of a soon-to-be-indef-blocked user. Destinero, if you keep this up, that will be you.  Sandstein  21:44, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

• I've had my own disagreements with Destinero over cherry-picking (other) affidavits for strong language (which wasn't put in quotes). I find this troublesome, for both NPOV and COPYVIO reasons. Some parts of LGBT parenting, contributed by Destinero, were deleted by an uninvolved admin on copyvio grounds. I don't know if in the dispute at hand here Destinero picked the strong language from the source, or if it was his own. A clarification would help. Tijfo098 (talk) 22:03, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
• In the current dispute, Destinero cited an amicus brief by the National Association of Social Workers to state the postion of the American Academy of Pediatrics. The 50-page linked pdf is non-searchable, so a page number would help. Tijfo098 (talk) 22:10, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

• I improved that by referencing the actual AAP position statement. Destinero and I had a discussion about this before: I think that citing one page position statements is preferable to dozen-of-pages briefs/affidavits. Tijfo098 (talk) 22:55, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
• The language was from the brief, bottom of p. 15. Something like that usually needs to be attributed. Again we had the issue of copy-pasted statements without quotes... Tijfo098 (talk) 01:02, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I concur with Sandstein's analysis here. Destinero's behavior does not look like civil discourse aimed at arriving at a consensus version of an article. It looks like trying, by any means necessary, to force through a particular viewpoint into an article, including stretching the use of sources of marginal appropriateness, coming to ANI rather than the article talk page to contest the edits of others, and most importantly, insisting that others (and not himself) have the burden to justify the removal of his additions. WP:BURDEN makes it clear that the conservative approach must be taken with contentious material. Challenged material is to be left out, and it is the burden of the person wishing to add it to prove, via reliable sources and reasoned discussion with others, that it belongs it. When someone behaves in the opposite manner, it is a red flag that they aren't interested in playing by the rules. The issue of copyright violations and plagiarism is also MUCHO serious, and needs to be addressed as well. --Jayron32 04:02, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to ask that there is an examination of Destinero's recent edits, which - despite concerns raised here and on his talk page - are a direct continuation of his regular behaviour. Not only has he apparently ignored concerns raised over the American College article, he has also made significant undiscussed changes to LGBT parenting and Same-sex marriage that have raised concerns over copyright violations and the use of weasel words. --Ckatz_spy 11:09, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

See my comment on new developments in the ACP article here. Tijfo098 (talk) 11:19, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Removed that from the ACP article, clearly very pointed. I think Destinero has a particular and deep POV on these topics; there is no reason to stop them from editing, but they need to understand why their edits are problematic and often pointed. I think we made movement on this on ther LGBT parenting article. I also have concerns with the consistent use of "not needed" as an edit summary for quite substantive edits. This should be discouraged and instead Destinero should try to use much more explanatory edit summaries to clear up their reasoning --Errant 11:23, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I am satisfied with the current versions of LGBT parenting and ACP article. What a difference to the Ckatz POV version http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=American_College_of_Pediatricians&diff=397489091&oldid=397268492, isn't it? Yes, I care much about these topics, but please, that does not mean I want to push some POV agenda. I understand copyvio and other concerns mentioned and take them seriously and I really appreciate the movement and feedback. The reason why I wrote not needed in edit summary were motivated to reduce duplicate material and focus on the essence of documented facts and adress copyvio and weasel word concerns. For example, I see no reason why include rather esseistic and defendable writing than document clearly current scientific research-based knowledge and expert consensus to let readers to make up their own opinions on the topic. Is it clearer, now? --Destinero (talk) 19:49, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Some context around that diff.

• Destenero compared to final - this is the difference between the same end version of the article and Destinero's changes Ckatz was reverting.
• Destinero compared to Ckatz - the two versions directly compared
• Revision right before this started compared to final
• Destinero's final revision compared to final

Ravensfire (talk) 23:21, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Ravensfire (talk) 23:21, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I just want to make it very clear for the record that, Destinero's errant claims of my "POV" version to the contrary, I have no personal involvement in the page as an editor. My involvement in this matter is solely and completely based on responding as an admin to what appears to me to be yet another case of Destinero's problematic editing style, as I have had to do elsewhere in the past. --Ckatz_spy 01:19, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• Please see Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-08-28/LGBT parenting, a case that I mediated. (I am no longer mediating any case involving Destinero). I thought that I had successfully explained to Destinero that his interpretation of WP:UNDUE was an extremely odd one (to say the least), and one not shared by the rest of the Misplaced Pages community. He seems to believe that if a claim is attributed to a source written by a respected expert on the topic, it can then be written in Misplaced Pages's voice. I assumed good faith with Destinero by suggesting this was a linguistic issue. However, I believe, since this issue has recurred, Destinero is attempting to game Misplaced Pages policy to his advantage, and has created disputes where none exist with some very experienced Wikipedians who are trying to write articles in an NPOV manner. He replies with walls of "lawyering" text when editors attempt to explain to him his strange, self-exculpatory view of WP:UNDUE.
• Therefore, I suggest that he be subject to a "softban" from inserting text in "Misplaced Pages's voice" on subjects relating to LGBT parenting and parenting in general, of which this is another example. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 21:03, 18 November 2010 (UTC) Corrected --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 21:05, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Proposed softban of Destinero: WP:UNDUE and parenting topics

I hereby propose the following softban. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 21:34, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Destinero (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is banned by community consensus from inserting or removing contentious claims under colour of WP:UNDUE in Misplaced Pages articles relating to parenting and LGBT parenting. He also may not write article prose in these topics in "Misplaced Pages's voice"; that is, he may not insert claims in articles on these topics as unqualified factual statements. Destinero may be briefly blocked by any uninvolved Misplaced Pages administrator in the event of violating this limited topic ban. In the event of repeat violations, he may be banned entirely from editing articles within these topics. See also Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-08-28/LGBT parenting.

• Ban enacted. Editors are free to dispute this limited-behaviour topic ban if they desire. I would have liked comment on this; however, Destinero's record of disruptive editing in these topic areas should not be entertained any longer, since it is wasting editors' and administrators' time. A cost-benefit decision must, therefore, be made. The ban will be noted in the appropriate venues. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 00:18, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Page ban request

Misleading claim of 'vandalism' by IANVS at 'White Argentine' article

USER:IANVS has reverted a large number of edits to the White Argentine article (diff here), describing them as 'multiple issues of vandalism'. The are clearly nothing of the kind. There is a long-running content dispute over this article, and the edits are evidently part of this.

Given that (amongst other issues), much of the text restored by IANVS is in clear breach of WP:BLP as it includes an unsourced categorisation of living individuals to a supposed 'ethnic group' that the article itself provides no valid evidence for the existence of (the term 'White Argentine', or a close equivalent in Spanish is not a term widely used in Argentina, as one of the leading contributors to the article (User:Pablozeta here) himself acknowledges), I ask that IANVS be required to work within Misplaced Pages policy, and deal with issues on a case by case basis, rather than engaging in mass reverts with misleading edit summaries, and furthermore, to ensure that any text restored confirms to WP:BLP.

AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:42, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

The "mass reversal" I did was because the IP user effectively did not made a case by case edit of the article, making it impossible to separate the viable edits from the vandalic ones. In fact, after the mass reversal I began to re-introduce valuable edits by the IP user. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 14:52, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Any edit to improve the Wiki - even if it is incorrect or misguided - is not vandalism and should never be called such. --Errant 15:07, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I apologize, I've should said "rv mass edits including some vandalism in it". Salut, --IANVS (talk) 15:16, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

In fact, I said "estore last good version -. multiple issues of vandalism." Salut, --IANVS (talk) 15:18, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Can you please make clear what it is you consider 'vandalism': I can see no evidence of any. And can you furthermore assure us that any restoration you make conforms with WP:BLP, and does not make assertions about the supposed ethnicity of living persons? AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:21, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

IP editor deleted links to other WP article, deleted references and sourced content, and segments or entire sections without a rational explanation ("c'mon be serious" kind of explanations). Much of these was vandalic behavior, that I could not undo without this mass reversal. I restored his valuable edits however, and I recently hid the extensive lists of names possibly subject to BLP policy, while tagging the most problematic section (Influence in culture) with a BLP concern tag. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 15:41, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

• This is very clearly a proper reversion by IANVS, as a significant amount of things by those two IPs were vandalism. There were one or two good edits in there that might want to be reinstated, but it was for the large part just section blanking, reference removal, and the addition of non-neutral sentences. IANVS was right in reverting it to what it was before. What BLP problems are you speaking of, Andy? Silverseren 16:46, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

• - Article is the subject of mediation Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/White Argentine and the edits look to be related to some of the issues related to that, hopefully it will all come out in the wash there. Of course any clear policy violation can and should be removed. Under the circumstances of mediation existing Its a good idea to clearly discuss any alterations to the article at present. Off2riorob (talk) 16:57, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

• Response to Silverseren - A content dispute is never vandalism.

With regard to BLP issues, I'd draw everyones attention to the following (from Misplaced Pages:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality):

General categorization by ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexuality is permitted, with the following considerations:

...

Inclusion must be justifiable by external references. (For example: regardless of whether you have personal knowledge of a notable individual's sexual orientation, they should only be filed in a LGBT-related category after verifiable, reliable sources have been provided in the article that support the assertion.)

...

Inclusion must be specifically relevant to at least one of the subject's notable activities and an essential part of that activity, but is not required to be an exclusive interest. Moreover, inclusion is not transitive to any other activity. (For example: a notable LGBT activist is not automatically included in a corresponding LGBT musician category, unless also notable for one or more LGBT-related music compositions or performances.)

Note that even if the supposed 'ethnicity' is sourced, it arguably fails to meet the requirement to be "specifically relevant to at least one of the subject's notable activities". In any case, the article provides no valid justification for using the term 'White Argentinian' as an ethnic group: ethnicity is something one ascribes to oneself. Instead, it is using an external 'ethnic category' as a basis for inclusion or exclusion. This is entirely contrary to Misplaced Pages policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:07, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Your concern on BLP policy is tangencial to this partial reversion (I restored everything that was not vandalic, hid the most problematic lists from the BLP perspective, and even added a BLP tag). We should be discusseing this in the article's talk page, Andy. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 19:08, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

It should not be on the talk page, because the issue is not entirely the content but has progressed to your inability to recognize what 'vandalism' is. The edit was clearly a good faith effort to improve the encyclopedia. Not one part of it was vandalism, from looking at the diff at the beginning of the thread. Most of it was probably worth a reversion, but the labeling as vandalism to clearly out of line. Not a major major issue, but probably worth a note of apology on the ip's talkpage. -- ۩ Mask 08:38, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

A point of information here: Once more, edits (not mine) as part of a contend dispute are being falsely labelled as 'vandalism' in edit summaries. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:02, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Since there seems to be quite the edit war here today, I've protected this article for three days. Hopefully, this will encourage some further discussion. Frankly, I'm seeing some bad edits, but nothing I would overtly call vandalism. If you see something you think fits taht criteria specifically, it would be helpful to call it. Kuru (talk) 17:23, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I insist, removal of sourced statements and references, relevant wikilinks, as well as entire sections without a proper WP:ES is vandalism, not legitimate edit warring. --IANVS (talk) 17:15, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

It's unimportant how do we name the things going on. Whenever it was vandalism or a content dispute, the important thing is that it was not correct to remove whole pages in a single edit, or to remove them and expect to discuss over a done deed. The restore of the deleted content was correct, at least until consensus or mediation say otherwise. MBelgrano (talk) 18:32, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

It's actually quite important to label them correctly. Good faith edits that simply come out wrong are not vandalism; you are in a content dispute and labeling your opponent as a vandal does not help bring them into line with our editorial process, nor does it grant you an exemption from 3RR. The IP editor engaged on the talk page; I would strongly encourage you to resolve your dispute there instead of edit warring when the protection expires. Kuru (talk) 19:51, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Personal attacks based on nationality

Hi,

I was trying to avoid this but now this has gone off limits. So here is the deal:

There is some discussion about which pictures should be included in the History section of the article Arc de Triomphe. This started on September 26th when DIREKTOR added the image File:Bundesarchiv Bild 101I-126-0347-09A, Paris, Deutsche Truppen am Arc de Triomphe.jpg to this section. This image depicts German troops marching on the Champs-Élysées with the Arc de Triomphe in the background. Some heated discussions and reverts happened next, actions that I did not take part in.

The result of these discussions were that 3 images stayed in the history section, leaving this section over-imaged. Also these images were all depicting events from the 20th Century remotely connected with the Arc de Triomphe itself. (see the article at this state).

I then decided to be bold and try a new set of images for this section, depicting events more closely related to the Arc, namely a drawing of the project by the architect of the Arc himself (File:Arc de Triomphe de l'Etoile - Projet Chalgrin - 02.jpg), and a drawing of the return of the ashes of Napoleon (File:Retour des Cendres - 1.jpg), Napoleon being the one that ordered the construction of the Arc.

I knew these changes would be controversial but did justify them in the discussion page of the article () and did personally notify the 2 contributors involved in this edit war ( and ). I was also prepared to have these changes modified but was not prepared for what happened next.

DIREKTOR started to be arrogant and insulting me. This is how he commented my contribution : "Rv (badly disguised ;)) image censorship." () and this is how he commented is addition to the talk page : "Nice try" ().

He has falsely accused me of removing discussions from Frania Wisniewska talk page. (). He also accused me of considering other contributors as "stupid". ()

All this attacks against me made me decided me to set up a request for comments on that issue so that it could be finally settled with more than 2 contributors. I made sure to present the issue in the most objective way I could. ()

DIREKTOR once again misunderstood my request for comments by claiming that I have an "agenda" . () For this he cites a discussion between me and Frania_Wisniewska which happened prior to the RfC. I did not discuss this RfC with anyone so I am wondering what agenda DIREKTOR is mentioning. He also mentions my presumed "patriotic sentiment". () He goes on with calling me a patriot Frenchman as part of the "patriot Frenchmen" he mentions. He uses an arrogant tone by using the expression "you and your buddies". ()

In conclusion, in this issue I wanted to improve the article by correcting the layout and the chronology of the pictures. I knew there would be discussion over this change but justified my changes and notified people. When the discussion stopped because of attacks over my nationality, I opened a RfC only to have DIREKTOR come back to his rant against the French people. Badzil (talk) 01:54, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

• LOL, you made my day. Thanks for the chuckles... buy don't we have a policy on edit warring. Although he is now into personal attacks. Well see what the admins do about it. --Hinata talk 01:59, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
  • I do not complain on edit warring, I complain solely on the issue of personal attacks. The edit war should hopefully be settled by the RfC. Badzil (talk) 02:01, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Is 'patriotic Frenchman' really an insult? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 02:02, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
      • Of course not, this is a content dispute ad hominem report. I did not insult anyone nor will I. The user needs to read WP:NPA more carefully before trying to get rid of me. --DIREKTOR 02:15, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
      • While not weighing in on the particular issue at hand, it's worth mentioning that in some languages and some cultures, calling somebody a patriot is offensive. In (most? all?) English-speaking cultures that is not the case, but "patriot" carries very different connotations in different languages, sometimes with a considerable "nationalist/extreme right-wing" tinge. I don't know what the situation is with French, however. --bonadea contributions talk 17:23, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
• For background, see Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive642#Content removal. Uncle G (talk) 02:26, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

For the record, I certainly do believe it is obvious a group of French users is ganging-up to remove a (very famous) photograph image of German troops marching in Paris - from several articles. And I do believe this is the (dare I say it? :) agenda of those users. The image had already been removed from the lead of the Battle of France article contrary to previously established consensus, and now the same is being attempted at the Arc de Triomphe article. Likely there are more examples.

The user is trying to get me blocked for opposing his edits based on my statements of the above. Instead, I would like to invite you guys to have at this strange mess . --DIREKTOR 02:37, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

• One of the user(s) there claims there is a conspiracy against the French military. They have also complained in the past that that iconic image of the Nazi troops marching near the Arch of Triumph is somehow connected with support of the Nazis. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:06, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

French Military? You mean the national running team? (I kid, I kid) HalfShadow 21:31, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

• • Talk of various conspiracy theories doesn't seem very helpful here, nor grouping users together according to their presumed nationality. There are compelling reasons for the prominent use of this picture in articles like the Battle of France. There is an obvious irony, however, in using it with WP:UNDUE prominence in an article about a French triumphal arch, since it shows a moment in history which was decidely not about a French triumph. In an article about an architectural feature, is this not just trying to make a WP:POINT? For comparison I looked at Eiffel tower where there is a very balanced set of pictures and detailed content about the German occupation. As far as "iconic images" go, the victory parade of De Gaulle qualifies just as much. The images have been moved around a lot lately: my proposal would be to gather relevant images, including this one, in a gallery, with detailed captions. Mathsci (talk) 03:45, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
    • One can take it personally or one can accept that that is certainly one of the most famous historical photographs of the arch - and also the only one which shows it being used in its actual function. --DIREKTOR 12:23, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Please prove that I am part of an agenda to remove that image. I stated on DIREKTOR's talk page that this is indeed not my goal. And how does the creation of a request for comments show my non-acceptance of the fact that the picture is "one of the most famous historical photographs of the arch"? How about letting users comment in terms of relevancy without again starting a nationality-based rant? Finally apologize for your false accusation of me deleting discussions and remove it from the talk page. Badzil (talk) 13:24, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

All sorts of interesting images could be put in a gallery without endlessly discussing their relative merits and demerits—that's always subjective. As far as French sensibilities are concerned, perhaps the issues with this image might be similar to those with equally "iconic" images of the collapse of the twin towers in Manhattan (see below and the image actually used in the article). Mathsci (talk) 13:53, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

As one of the contributors being talked about & wrongly accused of conspiracy by DIREKTOR, I think that the best way for me to describe the situation in which I am involved is to "copy & paste" the last comment I left earlier in the day at the Arc de Triomphe discussion page:

"RE the conversation between two fellow wikipedians, there for all the world to read even if written in French since most participants to France-related articles do speak & read French, it is a shame that the meaning of that conversation has to be twisted out of recognition.

1. 11NOV10, 0359hrs: Article Battle of France: I reverted Baseball Bugs who, the previous day, had put the marching naz photograph as leading picture, and had left the comment: It's already been discussed at length, and this was the consensus., leaving as my own reason for reversal: There was absolutely NO consensus for changing the photo, in fact, the change was done by force, ramming it thru the throat of those opposing it / placing marching naz in their chronological place /). Thus, I cannot be accused of removing the picture of the marching naz.
2. 11NOV10, 0420hrs: Article Arc de Triomphe contrary to what is being said by DireKtor, I did not remove any, but switched two photographs, putting the one with the French flag floating within the frame of the AdT closer to the top & the one of the marching naz at the bottom where the French flag had been - with the comment: On 11 November, the Arc de Triomphe with French flag is more appropriate than marching naz of June 1940.)
3. 11NOV10, 1345hrs, Badzil, with whom I am being accused of conspiring, reverted my edit - with comment: Please, an encyclopedia should not be modified for a particular day.
4. 11NOV10, 1442hrs: I reverted "my fellow conspirator" Badzil - with comment: Picture where it belongs, keep marching naz where they are if you wish : as said before, if this was the US flag, it wouldn't be relegated at bottom of article but would be flying on top.
5. 11NOV10, 1452hrs: my talk page, Badzil left a msg in French explaining his reversal, saying that although he did not like the marching naz anymore than I did, no change could be done without a debate, i.e. wiki rules had to be followed. He also wrote somewhere in his comment that he did not "support" my action although he understood it. I would hardly call this a conspiracy.
6. Then, before DireKtor entered the scene, I wrote (summarizing) that I know what historical documents are, and that I have nothing against their use, but that, not being an imbecile, I also can identify dirty tricks from the start, suspecting that D. did not add the photograph by respect for History, but out of spite toward the French, in other words, with harassment in mind - comparing the inclusion of the picture of the marching naz to France-related articles to the sending of a rope to the family of someone who had hung himself, or been hanged.
7. Finally, as my archiving bot archived the section because it laid dormant for over 48 hours, I not having answered his piece, DireKtor accused Badzil of removing the whole thing. I then reinstated the discussion yesterday, and the archiving bot archived it again today.

The above is the summary of the whole "conspiracy" between Badzil and myself.

Now I have other & better things to do than rehash over & over facts for the enjoyment of a young lad who wants to give himself importance with his one-sided knowledge of the History of France, the Battle of France, World War I & World War II, but cannot give a straight & true account of recent facts plain for everyone to read & see."

signed: --Frania W. (talk) 03:55, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

--Frania W. (talk) 14:23, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Resolved – we've already seen this go by once. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:30, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Medeis has insisted I strike this so he can respond to something. I have warned him that if he starts talking about the users DavidOaks has allegedly canvassed, he will have to notify them all individually. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:56, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Consensus at Folk etymology rejected the inclusion of urban legends cited from Snopes in an article on historical change in word forms as defined by the OED and documented in dozens of dictionaries, standard textbooks, and scholarly papers. Rejecting this consensus as not about reliable sources and the weight of scholarly opinion, but as about the oppression of folkloristics by academia, DavidOaks filed an RfC which failed to garner any support for his views. He filed a spurious 3RR complaint against myself and another editor. (The complaint resulted in no sanctions against us, but led to questioning of his sources, and the current freeze of the article.) And, most recently, in explicit violation of Misplaced Pages:Votestacking (selectively notifying editors who have or are thought to have a predetermined point of view), he composed a note advising:

and privately sent it to tweleve editors of his own chosing:

Although he qualifies his request in scare quotes saying that he is asking for input ‘’’not in support of either view,’’’ (which shows he is aware of the impropriety) the selection of editors he views as having a viewpoint is in clear violation of Misplaced Pages:Votestacking:

Resolved – thanks everyone. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:37, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Resolved – Consensus is very clear; NH is no longer banned from using the vandalism button on Twinkle. The ban looked fairly informal, I assume this wasn't etched in stone on some page somewhere, but if so, point me to it and I'll amend it. NH, please take some of the caveats below to heart, so this doesn't come back again. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:59, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Resolved – sox blox, thank you Tnxman. Will I ever get ahead of you. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:59, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Resolved – the Vulcan got 'um --Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Unresolved – Cptnono (talk) 18:11, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Resolved

Ip blocked for one month

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