| Revision as of 21:51, 26 November 2010 editCptnono (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers26,588 edits →Incident← Previous edit | Revision as of 23:44, 26 November 2010 edit undoDnkrumah (talk | contribs)456 edits →Incident: Answered Biased Cptnono and the other one. ~~~~Next edit → | ||
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| :::::Suggest that someone propose a draft that's brief, concise and with a neutral dispassionate tone that one would expect from an encyclopedia.--] (]) 14:59, 26 November 2010 (UTC) | :::::Suggest that someone propose a draft that's brief, concise and with a neutral dispassionate tone that one would expect from an encyclopedia.--] (]) 14:59, 26 November 2010 (UTC) | ||
| ::::::Exactly. A simple draft was all that as needed instead of accusations of IDONTLIKEIT. In regards to rank, if sources contradict just use "soldiers" or "NCOs", or something. And of course: WP:BRD.] (]) 21:41, 26 November 2010 (UTC) | ::::::Exactly. A simple draft was all that as needed instead of accusations of IDONTLIKEIT. In regards to rank, if sources contradict just use "soldiers" or "NCOs", or something. And of course: WP:BRD.] (]) 21:41, 26 November 2010 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::You are not going to remove the section. Especially considering that this info is in a section of the article on Accusations of Misconduct by the IDF. This is the conviction of two IDF soldiers of a war crime. It is the first conviction of its kind in Israeli history, the highest profile trial of its kind and this information was already present in the section with outdated information saying they were charged before I added the facts of conviction and sentencing. | |||
| :::::::You are not removing the facts which as they now stand are absolutely relevant and NPOV. Two IDF soldiers being convicted of a war crime is certainly more relevant then the preceding paragraph where there is an entire paragraph with a IDF soldiers saying the only Gazan human shields were those used by Hamas. That is probably why this information was present in the article to begin with. Sorry you don't like the facts but they are facts. It further balances all the claims throughout the article that the IDF are completely innocent and devoid of any type of misconduct. If you want to condense the article you should start with some of that. | |||
| :::::::In the last section I corrected that. It was two deaths not one. Also the soldier charged admitted to firing on a woman so this statement that the investigators couldn't determine... is false and misleading. ] (]) 23:43, 26 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
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obama and congress in the lead
Could Jiujitsuguy please explain why what the US administration and Congress said about the Goldstone report belongs in the lead? The text includes that Israel rejected the findings, why does the view of a state not involved in the conflict belong? Should I include the large number of states that said the findings were accurate and that Israeli officials should charged with war crimes to the lead? nableezy - 19:38, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- One of the few times I agree with Nableezy.Cptnono (talk) 19:39, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- don't agree. the US's opinion on something important in the I-A conflict is more important then Mongolia's opinion. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:43, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- What about Egypt's? Or Syria's? Or any number of other states? Why is the US position "more important" and how is that not a straightforward example of bias? nableezy - 19:48, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- Why does The UNHRC's endorsement of a biased one-sided report belong in the lead? And why not give equal credence to notable detractors like the President of the United States and the US House of Representatives? It is well known that the UNHRC is a body dominated by Islamic countries and their allies. Moreover, I see that you are extremely selective about what goes in the lead. You have completely ignored the edits made by Prunesqualer (which incidentally violate 1R). That issue had already been discussed at length and it was already agreed that it would not be included in the lead.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:56, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- Probably because this was a commission of the UNHRC? And the UNHRC is not a single state? But if it makes you feel better cut that part as well. And please, please, please, dont make me go to the trouble of demonstrating what is selective about your edits. I wont finish typing for weeks if you make me do so. Prunesqualer's edits may be overly detailed for the lead, but so is the parts about "new technologies" and "going to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties" and much of the other garbage in the lead. You have a problem with that text there is a section above to discuss that in. I have a problem with including only the US's view, which unsurprisingly was only included because you and a few other users agreed with them. If you dont have a problem with me including the views of other states that said that Israel is guilty of war-crimes I can add that. nableezy - 20:04, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) The first two churn out predictable propaganda. The position of the US, which has been the most important mediator between Israel and all her enemies, is newsworthy and notable.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:57, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- Nonsense. Both the US and Israel have brought us much more propaganda than nearly all of the Arab world as a whole. But I cant be bothered to give any more of a response to such a spurious reason as "they give us propaganda while the US gives us the truth". nableezy - 20:04, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- Of course Israel produces its propaganda, but they are a party to the report. And what's nonsense is equating the US (the country with the strongest media rights ever) with two countries who have jokes of government-run media.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:09, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- Who said one word about the media of Egypt or Syria? None of this is about the media. This is about what the state itself says. Put your flag away, I am not here to argue about who has "stronger media rights". This is about why what the US government says about a report on something it was not party to should be in the lead. nableezy - 20:16, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- Of course they are connected. Governments with strong media rights will not announce propaganda crap knowing that it will be mocked.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:43, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- What are talking about? That the US has a free press is not at all relevant to whether or not proclamations by the US government on a report about an event it was not involved in belongs in the lead of the article on that event. nableezy - 21:56, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- Of course they are connected. Governments with strong media rights will not announce propaganda crap knowing that it will be mocked.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:43, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- Who said one word about the media of Egypt or Syria? None of this is about the media. This is about what the state itself says. Put your flag away, I am not here to argue about who has "stronger media rights". This is about why what the US government says about a report on something it was not party to should be in the lead. nableezy - 20:16, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- Of course Israel produces its propaganda, but they are a party to the report. And what's nonsense is equating the US (the country with the strongest media rights ever) with two countries who have jokes of government-run media.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:09, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- Nonsense. Both the US and Israel have brought us much more propaganda than nearly all of the Arab world as a whole. But I cant be bothered to give any more of a response to such a spurious reason as "they give us propaganda while the US gives us the truth". nableezy - 20:04, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- Why does The UNHRC's endorsement of a biased one-sided report belong in the lead? And why not give equal credence to notable detractors like the President of the United States and the US House of Representatives? It is well known that the UNHRC is a body dominated by Islamic countries and their allies. Moreover, I see that you are extremely selective about what goes in the lead. You have completely ignored the edits made by Prunesqualer (which incidentally violate 1R). That issue had already been discussed at length and it was already agreed that it would not be included in the lead.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:56, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- What about Egypt's? Or Syria's? Or any number of other states? Why is the US position "more important" and how is that not a straightforward example of bias? nableezy - 19:48, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- The logic is quite easy to follow. Governments of countries that do not have a free press have a greater tendency to issue proclamations that are predictable propaganda nonsense. Compare for example to heads of state of France and Iran. Which one has a head of state involved in Holocaust denialism?
- This most logical explanation for this discrepancy is that where there is no free press to call out the heads of state nothing inhibits them from making asinine proclamations. Thus, in general we give greater credence to the proclamations of heads of state with a free press then heads of state without a free press. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:11, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- Your personal views on the merits of a free press are irrelevant in this discussion and is a straw man argument. Can you please try to keep to the topic under discussion? Why should the views of the United States administration and Congress be included in the lead of an article that has nothing to do with the United States? nableezy - 00:24, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Personal views are exactly what we do here, when making editorial decisions. I don't know what you're referring to with "straw man argument", and it appears that you just said it for the heck of it, as in, say.....a straw man. I made a reasonable point as to why the US's position is more notable then others (greater reliability and important player), but you have responded with everything possible except to the points raised.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 04:54, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- That is nonsense, and in fact you know it is nonsense. I think you are intentionally trying to get me to say something I shouldnt, and I am trying very hard to restrain the urge to click save page after typing my first response to you. Your argument, that the US having a more free press than Egypt or Syria, is a straw man because nobody made any argument about the freedom of press in any country. Ill respond to the actual argument, which you have so far avoided. nableezy - 06:04, 20 October 2010 (UTC) 06:04, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think you're confused. I made the argument. I never claimed anyone else did.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:27, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- That is nonsense, and in fact you know it is nonsense. I think you are intentionally trying to get me to say something I shouldnt, and I am trying very hard to restrain the urge to click save page after typing my first response to you. Your argument, that the US having a more free press than Egypt or Syria, is a straw man because nobody made any argument about the freedom of press in any country. Ill respond to the actual argument, which you have so far avoided. nableezy - 06:04, 20 October 2010 (UTC) 06:04, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Personal views are exactly what we do here, when making editorial decisions. I don't know what you're referring to with "straw man argument", and it appears that you just said it for the heck of it, as in, say.....a straw man. I made a reasonable point as to why the US's position is more notable then others (greater reliability and important player), but you have responded with everything possible except to the points raised.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 04:54, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Your personal views on the merits of a free press are irrelevant in this discussion and is a straw man argument. Can you please try to keep to the topic under discussion? Why should the views of the United States administration and Congress be included in the lead of an article that has nothing to do with the United States? nableezy - 00:24, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Following the Gaza War, Judge Goldstone's mission spent several weeks in the Gaza strip examining evidence first hand. To the best of my knowledge neither "the President of the United States" or "the US House of Representatives" had access to such a wealth of first hand evidence. The Idea that their pronouncements are more valid than those of Judge Goldstone (who is Jewish and an avowed Zionist and therefor unlikely to be biased against Israel) doesn’t hold water.Prunesqualer (talk) 20:27, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- The idea that someone is Jewish & says he's a Zionist as a defense against any possible bias is laughable. I can dig up hundreds of Jews who are Zionists who say he's a liar out to destroy Israel - & Jews who are also in the area who know what goes on there (Shades of Jenin!). So please stop using this as any sort of defense - just the facts, please. FlaviaR (talk) 03:37, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
<- I agree that there's no reason to single out the views of the US administration and Congress (or the EU, Russia, China, India, Arab League etc) in the lead and to do so is a very straightforward example of bias. Also, for what it is worth, Oct 20th is the day Reporters Without Borders publish their (admittedly non-deterministic but better than nothing) press freedom metrics each year. The US is 20th again although it's rating has dropped. Northern Europe leads as always. The notion that media rights in the US means that the government can't get nonsense published is a strange thought given what happened in Iraq about WMD...in addition to being irrelevant to the question at hand. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:29, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think WP:BIAS is the best argument against it. Of course, since editors can do whatever they want in the topic area I am leaning towards including it now.Cptnono (talk) 04:36, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- May I propose a compromise solution whereby part of the edit is reverted while part stands. For example, I can remove the House portion of the edit while leaving Obama or the reverse. Would that be acceptable?--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 04:41, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- I am fine with that. Obama's would be more notable so I would go with that.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 04:55, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- If anything is to be included I think it would be much better for it to be a reactions summary statement like the one in the main article e.g. The controversial report received wide support among developing countries in the United Nations, while Western countries were split between supporters and opponents of the resolutions endorsing the report......or thereabouts with or without the 'controversial'. Something along those lines anyway. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:29, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Neither of them should be included. If it makes you feel that much better you can also remove the UNHRC vote on it. Or better yet, tie in the American opposition, and European endorsement, to the adoption of the report into the line on the UNHRC vote. Why exactly should we not include a line on the EU endorsing the report in the lead? The only reason to favor this government over any other is a personal liking for the view. Brewcrewer makes a (Im having a real difficult time calling what he wrote an "argument", so we'll have to go with "comment") that the freedom of the press of the US somehow magically gives credence to the views of the government of the US. Even if I were to lose control of my facilities and accept that this was a valid argument, Sweden has a free press. As do many of the countries who voted in favor of the adoption of the report. So here is what I can accept, and they both involve removing both Obama and the Congress from the lead of the article. Write who voted for/against/abstained in the ref or something, or also remove the line on Obama and the Congress. However, if either of those lines stay there will be no defense against including whatever other government said about the report in the lead of the article. Understand that you are not just arguing for including this particular statement; if you want to even pretend that NPOV means anything at all you will have to accept any other state's views being placed alongside the US's. Or you can just restrict the lead of the article to what the involved parties had to say about it. Let me know how you decide, I dont want to have to start looking for what the Nigerian Foreign Minister said about the report unless I have to. nableezy - 06:04, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- No. This discussion is about those particular lines. If you want others in you will need to start those discussions.Cptnono (talk) 06:13, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Im sorry, you dont get to decide what happens here. Unless people are willing to flat out say that NPOV does not mean anything at all, if they support including Obama they will have to accept including the EU, Sweden, Egypt, Iran, China, and any other state that had their views published in the media. You can make one of two arguments in good faith, either the views on the report of individual states not party to the conflict should go in the lead, or the views of individual states should not go in the lead. An argument that only this particular state's views should go in the lead cannot be made in good faith as it patently violates WP:NPOV, a core policy of this website, and further violates the discretionary sanctions in place in this topic area. If Obama's view goes in the lead, so do other third party state's views. Just the US is not an option here. nableezy - 06:20, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- You are right, I don't. However, you have just recently returned to this article and are already screwing it up. If you want to add things in simply to make a point since you don't like that particular line you will find yourself subject of yet another AE. How many would that be now? You are going to add in the thoughts of Sweden and others? Go ahead since you really should be done here. Or instead you could not make a weird temper tantrum threat and simply base your argument off of WP:BIAS.Cptnono (talk) 06:25, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Good luck with that. It isnt a "temper tantrum" or a "threat". If you want to take me or anybody else to AE you are free to do so. You have already admitted to violating POINT above (you initially say you agree that these sentences should not be in the lead, but when you are unsuccessful in asking for another user to be blocked you say you are now "leaning towards including it", you essentially admit to supporting the material because you didnt get your way somewhere else ), so if you want to go to AE we can do that. My argument is simple. I say that the views of individual states should not be included. If however certain users are able to force into the lead of the article the views of this one specific state then clearly the views of individual states should be in the lead of the article, and because of this I will then add the views of other states. The only two possible options that are consistent with NPOV are no 3rd party states or many 3rd party states. Selecting one that certain users like and only including that is not an option. nableezy - 14:45, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- You are right, I don't. However, you have just recently returned to this article and are already screwing it up. If you want to add things in simply to make a point since you don't like that particular line you will find yourself subject of yet another AE. How many would that be now? You are going to add in the thoughts of Sweden and others? Go ahead since you really should be done here. Or instead you could not make a weird temper tantrum threat and simply base your argument off of WP:BIAS.Cptnono (talk) 06:25, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Im sorry, you dont get to decide what happens here. Unless people are willing to flat out say that NPOV does not mean anything at all, if they support including Obama they will have to accept including the EU, Sweden, Egypt, Iran, China, and any other state that had their views published in the media. You can make one of two arguments in good faith, either the views on the report of individual states not party to the conflict should go in the lead, or the views of individual states should not go in the lead. An argument that only this particular state's views should go in the lead cannot be made in good faith as it patently violates WP:NPOV, a core policy of this website, and further violates the discretionary sanctions in place in this topic area. If Obama's view goes in the lead, so do other third party state's views. Just the US is not an option here. nableezy - 06:20, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- No. This discussion is about those particular lines. If you want others in you will need to start those discussions.Cptnono (talk) 06:13, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Neither of them should be included. If it makes you feel that much better you can also remove the UNHRC vote on it. Or better yet, tie in the American opposition, and European endorsement, to the adoption of the report into the line on the UNHRC vote. Why exactly should we not include a line on the EU endorsing the report in the lead? The only reason to favor this government over any other is a personal liking for the view. Brewcrewer makes a (Im having a real difficult time calling what he wrote an "argument", so we'll have to go with "comment") that the freedom of the press of the US somehow magically gives credence to the views of the government of the US. Even if I were to lose control of my facilities and accept that this was a valid argument, Sweden has a free press. As do many of the countries who voted in favor of the adoption of the report. So here is what I can accept, and they both involve removing both Obama and the Congress from the lead of the article. Write who voted for/against/abstained in the ref or something, or also remove the line on Obama and the Congress. However, if either of those lines stay there will be no defense against including whatever other government said about the report in the lead of the article. Understand that you are not just arguing for including this particular statement; if you want to even pretend that NPOV means anything at all you will have to accept any other state's views being placed alongside the US's. Or you can just restrict the lead of the article to what the involved parties had to say about it. Let me know how you decide, I dont want to have to start looking for what the Nigerian Foreign Minister said about the report unless I have to. nableezy - 06:04, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- If anything is to be included I think it would be much better for it to be a reactions summary statement like the one in the main article e.g. The controversial report received wide support among developing countries in the United Nations, while Western countries were split between supporters and opponents of the resolutions endorsing the report......or thereabouts with or without the 'controversial'. Something along those lines anyway. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:29, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- I am fine with that. Obama's would be more notable so I would go with that.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 04:55, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- May I propose a compromise solution whereby part of the edit is reverted while part stands. For example, I can remove the House portion of the edit while leaving Obama or the reverse. Would that be acceptable?--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 04:41, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think WP:BIAS is the best argument against it. Of course, since editors can do whatever they want in the topic area I am leaning towards including it now.Cptnono (talk) 04:36, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Let's all calm down and take a deep breath. I'm sure this can be worked out. Nab, do you not think that the views of the United States are notable? More notable than say, the views of that thriving republic, Djibouti? I'm not trying to mock. I'm merely making the point that the views of the world's only superpower should count for something, no?--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 15:41, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Certainly not more notable than the EU, or Egypt, or Turkey, or ... . And certainly not so notable that they should be in the lead of the article. nableezy - 15:51, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think your confusing the European parliament with Europe as a whole. While the European parliament endorsed the report (and by a very slim margin), individual European nations adopted contrary positions vis a vis the Goldstone report. For example Italy, Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic, (just to name a few) all EU members, rejected Goldstone as did Canada and Australia. The view of democracies should be accorded more weight than those of repressive regimes with abysmal human rights records. The UNHRC is composed of members such as Saudi Arabia, Libya, Bangladesh, China, Jordan, Pakistan, Algeria, Angola, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Djibouti, Mauritania, Senegal, Uganda, Zambia, Malaysia and Qatar. Do you think that these states have the moral authority to judge others? Can you actually equate the views of these regimes with those of the United States, Canada or Australia? --Jiujitsuguy (talk) 16:34, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- You mean I shouldnt compare states who have recently been shown to have repeatedly committed torture with other states that commit torture? 335-287 is not "very slim", and votes by the EUP represent the position of the EU as a whole, if not each specific member state. A number of democratic states also supported the report (Turkey is a democracy, and in the not so distant past one of the more important allies that Israel had). But back to the point, is there a reason why Congress should be included but the EU Parliament should not? Or why Obama should be included but Sweden's views should not? Is Sweden not "democratic" enough? Finally, I said you could also remove the line on the UNHRC vote as well, it isnt so important that it needs to be in the lead. But there is no reason at all to include the US view, and only the US view, in the lead. nableezy - 17:10, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think your confusing the European parliament with Europe as a whole. While the European parliament endorsed the report (and by a very slim margin), individual European nations adopted contrary positions vis a vis the Goldstone report. For example Italy, Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic, (just to name a few) all EU members, rejected Goldstone as did Canada and Australia. The view of democracies should be accorded more weight than those of repressive regimes with abysmal human rights records. The UNHRC is composed of members such as Saudi Arabia, Libya, Bangladesh, China, Jordan, Pakistan, Algeria, Angola, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Djibouti, Mauritania, Senegal, Uganda, Zambia, Malaysia and Qatar. Do you think that these states have the moral authority to judge others? Can you actually equate the views of these regimes with those of the United States, Canada or Australia? --Jiujitsuguy (talk) 16:34, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
A number of states, groups and individuals took differing stances regarding the Goldstone report. However in the introductory section of this article undue weight is given to parties who opposed the report. Initially the UN's endorsement of the report is Cited but without including any context or justification for this decision. Then the Obama administration' rejection of the report is cited which is followed by a quoted justification, critical of the report. Then the U.S. House of Representatives rejection of the report is alluded to, followed by a further quoted damning of the report. This is followed by a reference to Israels "criticising" the Report and "disputing" its findings. In my opinion this level of bias is unacceptable.Prunesqualer (talk) 00:39, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Nab, If all references to Goldstone and the UNHRC are removed from the Lead, there is no need to mention the U.S. position. Would you object to this compromise solution?--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 14:50, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- As an aside, I'd like to point out just one of the many hypocrisies of the UNHRC and why it is a disingenuous body, unworthy of any consideration. It was the UNHRC, on its own initiative, that sanctioned the commission of an investigative group, headed by Goldstone. Goldstone's flawed report, almost as an afterthought, included crimes committed by Hamas. The UNHRC adopted Goldstone's findings but only to the extent of those portions critical of Israel. Hamas violations were completely ignored. The UNHRC doesn't even pretend to be unbiased. It is a worthless body whose sole purpose is to vilify one nation on this planet. I would propose that whenever we cite or reference the UNHRC, it is accompanied by a qualification detailing its blatant biases.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 15:34, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- You want to remove Goldstone from the lead????? How about whenever we cite any AIPAC, JVL, or other such source we include a qualification detailing its blatant biases? How about whenever we cite the Congress we include a qualification on its blatant bias? Get off it. You have two choices here, remove Obama and the Congress or watch as I add every state that said the Goldstone report was accurate and that Israel is guilty of crimes against humanity. I leave it to you. nableezy - 15:40, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- AIPAC is a lobbying group. It is expected to have biases in favor of its interests. The UNHRC purports to be a nonpartisan group and the champion of human rights but remains blind to the suffering of Christians in Darfur, the plight of the Kurds in Turkey, the occupation of Northern Cyprus, the repression in Iran, etc... But I don't want to get off track. Can you propose an alternative solution that is acceptable to all sides so stability can return to the article. I am willing to work with you on this.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 16:06, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- I already gave an option that has seemingly been ignored. Remove the UNHRC vote along with Obama and Congress if that really bothers you. But removing Goldstone, cmon you cant be serious. nableezy - 16:26, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- It hasn't been ignored. While I can't speak for others, I'm certainly giving it due consideration, possibly incorporating some other ideas and suggestions. What I'm trying to convey is that Goldstone has not been universally accepted and has in fact, been rejected by many democracies. People tend to think that because the UNHRC incorporates the letters "UN," it must be legit when in fact, its predecessor body was dissolved by Kofi Anan precisely because of the same biases that run rampant within the organization today.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 17:04, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- I dont care about the UNHRC or what you or anybody else thinks about its biases or anything like that. We already say that Israel said the report is biased, why is that not enough? Why would it matter if Congress passed a resolution about the report? That shouldnt even be in the lead of the article on the report much less in the lead of this article. nableezy - 18:18, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- I could get behind removing Goldstone from the lead. Maybe the best way to summarize intl reaction in the lead is not through that report.Cptnono (talk) 18:09, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- That is one of the worse suggestions that has been made in the years I have been working on this article. The report itself has been given a huge amount of weight by sources, ignoring it because you and a few other partisans dont like it is not compliant with mandatory policies of this website. nableezy - 18:18, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- I never said I didn't like it, did I?
- The report is looking like it needs some more background. This has come up before with editors wanting to preface it with "controversial" and now all these rebuttals. It would be more efficient and get the point across better by simply saying that "Israel was widely criticized by the intl community" or something along those lines. No one is suggesting removing the report from the article. Just the lead. Cptnono (talk) 18:22, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- All right, how about we remove Hamas rockets from the lead.? That makes as much sense as this. If you havent noticed, "controversial" does currently preface mention of the report. This was as important and as widely covered as any other aspect of the conflict. Suggestions to remove mention of it from the lead of a supposed encyclopedia article are asinine. nableezy - 18:32, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Your comments about rockets doesn't deserve a response.
- That is nice that controversial is still in. However, there was some back and forth on it. It also isn't necessary since we already state that there was opposition to it. It is clear that any use of the report in the lead will require rebuttals and multiple lines. It doesn;t deserve that much weight.
- Since we can't figure out a way to add the report then why use it? We can make it clear that there was criticism without it. Cptnono (talk) 20:04, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- First three things. I have NOT read peoples input above. I have read and re-read the lede and as some of you already know I do TRY and take a NPOV with this article. (And fourth I would love one day for this to get GA status...I dream). My observation is that the Goldstone report just gets too much of the lede and should be cut down. He said this, he endorsed that, he rejected and so did he! What has that got to do with the war? Cptnono I am sure that you can come up with something that is better :-) Bjmullan (talk) 20:15, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Your comment makes me think you havent even read the lead. There is one line about Goldstone, another sentence about a UNHRC vote, and one sentence each about Obama and Congress saying they dont like the report and then finally one line on an Israeli response. nableezy - 20:49, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- I don't like the US rebuttal. But I also understand that some editors feel that the mention of the report without spelling out how controversial it actually was is necessary. I have a habit of fixing things with a sledgehammer and in this case conveying the intl criticism can be done without the report. I know it sounds out there but the line has been nothing but trouble.Cptnono (talk) 20:21, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- The report itself, not just "international reaction", is a major topic in the conflict. It is as important and relevant as rocket attacks by Hamas. You have already neutered the lead from including anything wrong or illegal that Israel has done, removing that the well sourced line on it being called a massacre, removing the well sourced material on the civilian structures hit by Israel, and now you want to remove the official record of a UN fact finding mission because ultra-nationalistic editors dont like that somebody dared to document the war crimes Israel has committed? nableezy - 20:42, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Nableezy sorry for the confusion. I meant the whole bit about the report and the response by others. I think you recent edit has helped to addressed this. Bjmullan (talk) 21:03, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- But now your edit has been reverted by Brewcrewer. I would support your version of the final paragraph and not the current one. If we mention the USA here we should mention the UK, EU, USSR (showing my ages) and any number of countries response to the report. Bjmullan (talk) 21:43, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- (ec)I did nothing of the sort, Nableezy. I removed stuff on civilian structures after someone else removed it sometime ago. I actually readded a new version of it before seeing this. Massacre is still in. But yes, I would be happy to neuter the report. As I have said twice already, I don't like the rebuttals and if those rebuttals are needed then maybe it should go. I am on the fence with the report but would be happy to see it gone or happy to see it stay if consensus deems it appropriate and manageable.Cptnono (talk) 21:45, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- But now your edit has been reverted by Brewcrewer. I would support your version of the final paragraph and not the current one. If we mention the USA here we should mention the UK, EU, USSR (showing my ages) and any number of countries response to the report. Bjmullan (talk) 21:43, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Nableezy sorry for the confusion. I meant the whole bit about the report and the response by others. I think you recent edit has helped to addressed this. Bjmullan (talk) 21:03, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- The report itself, not just "international reaction", is a major topic in the conflict. It is as important and relevant as rocket attacks by Hamas. You have already neutered the lead from including anything wrong or illegal that Israel has done, removing that the well sourced line on it being called a massacre, removing the well sourced material on the civilian structures hit by Israel, and now you want to remove the official record of a UN fact finding mission because ultra-nationalistic editors dont like that somebody dared to document the war crimes Israel has committed? nableezy - 20:42, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- First three things. I have NOT read peoples input above. I have read and re-read the lede and as some of you already know I do TRY and take a NPOV with this article. (And fourth I would love one day for this to get GA status...I dream). My observation is that the Goldstone report just gets too much of the lede and should be cut down. He said this, he endorsed that, he rejected and so did he! What has that got to do with the war? Cptnono I am sure that you can come up with something that is better :-) Bjmullan (talk) 20:15, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- All right, how about we remove Hamas rockets from the lead.? That makes as much sense as this. If you havent noticed, "controversial" does currently preface mention of the report. This was as important and as widely covered as any other aspect of the conflict. Suggestions to remove mention of it from the lead of a supposed encyclopedia article are asinine. nableezy - 18:32, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- That is one of the worse suggestions that has been made in the years I have been working on this article. The report itself has been given a huge amount of weight by sources, ignoring it because you and a few other partisans dont like it is not compliant with mandatory policies of this website. nableezy - 18:18, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- It hasn't been ignored. While I can't speak for others, I'm certainly giving it due consideration, possibly incorporating some other ideas and suggestions. What I'm trying to convey is that Goldstone has not been universally accepted and has in fact, been rejected by many democracies. People tend to think that because the UNHRC incorporates the letters "UN," it must be legit when in fact, its predecessor body was dissolved by Kofi Anan precisely because of the same biases that run rampant within the organization today.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 17:04, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- I already gave an option that has seemingly been ignored. Remove the UNHRC vote along with Obama and Congress if that really bothers you. But removing Goldstone, cmon you cant be serious. nableezy - 16:26, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- AIPAC is a lobbying group. It is expected to have biases in favor of its interests. The UNHRC purports to be a nonpartisan group and the champion of human rights but remains blind to the suffering of Christians in Darfur, the plight of the Kurds in Turkey, the occupation of Northern Cyprus, the repression in Iran, etc... But I don't want to get off track. Can you propose an alternative solution that is acceptable to all sides so stability can return to the article. I am willing to work with you on this.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 16:06, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- You want to remove Goldstone from the lead????? How about whenever we cite any AIPAC, JVL, or other such source we include a qualification detailing its blatant biases? How about whenever we cite the Congress we include a qualification on its blatant bias? Get off it. You have two choices here, remove Obama and the Congress or watch as I add every state that said the Goldstone report was accurate and that Israel is guilty of crimes against humanity. I leave it to you. nableezy - 15:40, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
<- Removing all references to the Goldstone report in the lead seems like a step too far. Whatever we do we can't single out the US response there on its own. It would be difficult to describe how biased that looks from where I'm sitting. Even the Communist Party of China do better than that in their state run newspapers e.g. this China Daily report all about the EU. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:25, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
- As things stand we have;
- half a line noting that the UNHCR endorsed the Goldstone report, -verses- two lines of negative responses to the report.
- UNHCR endorsement of the G.R -verses- US Presidential + US Congress + Israeli Government condemnation.
- No quotes or editorial supporting the G.R -verses- significant quotes and editorial condemning it.
- Dose anybody have a credible defence for this imbalance? If not, I would recommend we go with Nableezy's version which fully addresses this problem. Prunesqualer (talk) 10:32, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
- I certainly don't have and also suggest we adopt Nableezy's version. Bjmullan (talk) 19:38, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
- Prunesqualer should address JJG and BCs concerns instead of relying on them not providing "credible defence for this imbalance". Cptnono (talk) 20:13, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
- I certainly don't have and also suggest we adopt Nableezy's version. Bjmullan (talk) 19:38, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
- Cptnono, you asked me to "address JJG and BCs concerns". Nableezy, and others have already addressed most of them, but I'll do my best;
- concern; US opinion is more important, in the Arab-Israeli conflict, that that of other states. Answer; Brazil, China, India, Indonesia, The Russian Federation, and South Africa, and many others including most of the Middle East and the EU, endorsed the report. These are among the most populous and significant states on earth. Singling out the opinions of only Israel and the US as worthy of mention is, in my opinion, inappropriate.
- concern; The US is the most important mediator between Israel and all her enemies therefore its views are "newsworthy and notable" Answer; The US is Israel's most important ally and has a long track record of supporting Israel's causes. It's support for Israel on this issue is therefor not "newsworthy" or "notable".
- concern; Many countries who supported the report don't have a free press and have "a greater tendency to issue proclamations that are predictable propaganda nonsense." eg Egypt and Syria "churn out predictable propaganda." Answer; Israel has been on a war footing for decades, and exercises a greater control over it's media than most democracies (the Lavon Affair is a good example). Some would say Israel churns out predictable propaganda. Should we therefor remove Israel's opinions from the article? Also note that the EU parliament (which voted to endorse the report) is entirely made up of states who have a free press.
- concern; The report shouldn't be mentioned in the introduction at all because it is biased, flawed etc Answer; As for bias, that's disputed. If we exclude every report or statement that has been labelled "biased" by one party or another we wouldn’t be left with much of an article. The report may indeed contain some flaws (what 575 page report doesn’t?), but the G.R. is too significant, and widely supported, to leave out of the intro, simply because some consider it "flawed".
- Cptnono, you asked me to "address JJG and BCs concerns". Nableezy, and others have already addressed most of them, but I'll do my best;
In summery
- The Goldstone Report is too significant to leave out of the intro.
- World opinion on the G.R. was mixed. If opinions on the G.R. are to be included in the intro, they should be representative and proportional/balanced.
Nableezy's last edit answers these conditions, the current version dose not. Prunesqualer (talk) 16:15, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- With the recent conversation on Nableezy's page and the lack of a rebuttal this is probably good to go.Cptnono (talk) 19:16, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Procedural note: Edits by Prunesqualer can be reverted since he was banned. This was one of them. This one looks good but wanted to mention it. Straight revert or let it stand? Any oppose should mean it goes. But it might be fine as is.Cptnono (talk) 04:17, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
- I still think the edit was acceptable. Anyone else?Cptnono (talk) 20:12, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- With the recent conversation on Nableezy's page and the lack of a rebuttal this is probably good to go.Cptnono (talk) 19:16, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Title of this article
I dare say I'm not the first person to raise this issue (and probably won't be the last), but I have a problem with the title "The Gaza War" for this article. Can this series of events really be described as a war? Firstly, I would point out that it represents only a period of increased activity, within a long standing conflict. Secondly, the protagonists where so unevenly matched that the term "war" seems inappropriate. Gaza/Hamas had not one tank, aircraft or warship to their name, whereas Israel had the 4th most powerful military force on earth. Surly, if this is to be described as war then a trained boxer pummelling a five year old should be described as a fight? Prunesqualer (talk) 01:30, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- See the archives. It has come up plenty. "War" is used in the sources and the disparity between their arsenal doesn't change that. If you can provide sources tha thsow "conflict" or something similar being used to a greater extent and can come up with a good title based on it then please present it.
- I personally prefer "conflict (season year - season year) but it is to wordy.Cptnono (talk) 02:56, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Yes I would acknowledge that Wiki gives precedence to sources that are "used to a greater extent", even if those sources claim that black is white (it's a crap system, but I admit, I can't think of a better alternative). My impression is that the term; "Operation Cast Lead" is more commonly used to describe this episode than; "The Gaza War". Do I have to perform a statistical analysis on, all of the press reports and historical papers on this subject to get this passed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prunesqualer (talk • contribs) 03:51, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- It would help make such a case. However, I highly doubt it will be changed to that due to the previous concerns of being POV by giving prominence to Israel's classification of it. I personally have leaned towards that title but it met with mostly resistence. Cptnono (talk) 03:55, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- If both sides of the conflict, and the reliable sources, describe it as a war, then why shouldn't we? Marokwitz (talk) 09:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- It would help make such a case. However, I highly doubt it will be changed to that due to the previous concerns of being POV by giving prominence to Israel's classification of it. I personally have leaned towards that title but it met with mostly resistence. Cptnono (talk) 03:55, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Yes I would acknowledge that Wiki gives precedence to sources that are "used to a greater extent", even if those sources claim that black is white (it's a crap system, but I admit, I can't think of a better alternative). My impression is that the term; "Operation Cast Lead" is more commonly used to describe this episode than; "The Gaza War". Do I have to perform a statistical analysis on, all of the press reports and historical papers on this subject to get this passed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prunesqualer (talk • contribs) 03:51, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Prunesqualer, have you ever heard of the term asymmetrical warfare? This was a war in every sense of the word. In some ways it was more difficult than a conventional war because IDF had to operate in dense urban, booby trapped terrain that Hamas was intimately familaier with.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 20:09, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Listening to some of Israel's supporters describing conditions in Gaza, one sometimes gets the impression that every home, hospital, school, and mosque, was infested with Hamas gunman/snipers and rigged with booby traps. One wonders how Israel managed to only lose six combatants (that's taking off the four friendly fire incidents) to enemy fire? Something doesn’t add up here. Prunesqualer (talk) 23:29, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- This isn't a forum.Cptnono (talk) 00:42, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
@Prunesqualer - you need to know what's going on here, the article must portray the inmates of the ghetto as the aggressors. The final scandal over neutrality happened when MeteorMaker proved, according to every reliable source there is, that the term "Judea and Samaria" is exclusively used by right-wing Israelis (or their absolute supporters elsewhere). He even found 80 or so secondary sources noting this to be the case - the ArbCom banned him and two of the very last honest editors. The highly partisan "J&S" phrase has now been inserted everywhere, used as if it was the "neutral narrative" of the encyclopedia. It's shocking, but that's the way it's been at Misplaced Pages for a while. 94.116.26.2 (talk) 11:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC).
- When was the name of this article changed? When the conflict was ongoing the page was called "Operation Cast Lead" and I haven't read the page since then. I find the current name is confusing/incorrect. All media reports from the conflict referred to it as Operation Cast Lead, and I never saw it called "The Gaza War." The opening paragraph doesn't even say "also known as" or reference "Operation Cast Lead." While I will make no judgment I don't really think this was a war so much a series of Israeli offensives. There is nothing on the Talk Page here about the changing of the article's name, but I don't think it was the correct move. I'd suggest it be changed back to Operation Cast Lead or to something along the lines of the previous title I found in the archives, "2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict". To call this the Gaza War is incorrect because Operation Cast Lead was just one Israeli Operation of many. Israel have performed air-raids and bombing offensives on Gaza since then, and performed many before then - each one does not represent a war (if they did this would be "Gaza War 126" or something). Cast Lead was just one in a series of conflicts in a troubled region. The current title seems overly political, misleading, and a misrepresentation of the nature of the operation it relates to. I see from the archives that it is very frequently discussed what this article should be called - yet I didn't find anything explaining why it was deemed reasonable to call it "Gaza War." 124.148.175.199 (talk) 18:05, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Searching the archives for "WP:NAME" will find most of the discussions but I think the important one was Talk:Gaza_War/Archive_47#Requested_move. Not sure why Operation Cast Lead isn't in the lead anymore but it redirects to this article. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:19, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- The rationale in that discussion seemed to be that some cited articles referred to it as the Gaza War - but that was press covering a current event. We have articles called 2006 Israel–Gaza conflict and 2007–2008 Israel–Gaza conflict, so why isn't this one called "2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict" for consistency? It is no more a war than either of those articles, and the press at the time for the most part in fact referred to "Operation Cast Lead" despite the articles linked in the discussion archive you referred to. 124.148.175.199 (talk) 18:33, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Just to add to that - even if there's disagreement on changing the title to something closer to describing it, I think we need to go back to saying "also known as Operation Cast Lead" or at the very least using the operation name in the opening of the article. 124.148.175.199 (talk) 18:36, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- WP:MILMOS#NAME may have played a role in it not being called Operation Cast Lead. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:45, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed. I am then of the opinion that 1) the opening of the article should say "also known as Operation Cast Lead" or reference it, and that 2) a more in depth discussion may be necessary but that the article be named "2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict" for the reasons I've stated above. I don't participate in Misplaced Pages much - what is the process for suggesting this title change or bringing it about? 124.148.175.199 (talk) 18:03, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
- from what i understand, "Cast Lead" was removed from the lede as a compromise with other editors who insisted on adding the (untruthful) "gaza massacre" name, claiming (untruthfully) that the term was used by reliable sources.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:27, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed. I am then of the opinion that 1) the opening of the article should say "also known as Operation Cast Lead" or reference it, and that 2) a more in depth discussion may be necessary but that the article be named "2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict" for the reasons I've stated above. I don't participate in Misplaced Pages much - what is the process for suggesting this title change or bringing it about? 124.148.175.199 (talk) 18:03, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
- WP:MILMOS#NAME may have played a role in it not being called Operation Cast Lead. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:45, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Searching the archives for "WP:NAME" will find most of the discussions but I think the important one was Talk:Gaza_War/Archive_47#Requested_move. Not sure why Operation Cast Lead isn't in the lead anymore but it redirects to this article. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:19, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- When was the name of this article changed? When the conflict was ongoing the page was called "Operation Cast Lead" and I haven't read the page since then. I find the current name is confusing/incorrect. All media reports from the conflict referred to it as Operation Cast Lead, and I never saw it called "The Gaza War." The opening paragraph doesn't even say "also known as" or reference "Operation Cast Lead." While I will make no judgment I don't really think this was a war so much a series of Israeli offensives. There is nothing on the Talk Page here about the changing of the article's name, but I don't think it was the correct move. I'd suggest it be changed back to Operation Cast Lead or to something along the lines of the previous title I found in the archives, "2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict". To call this the Gaza War is incorrect because Operation Cast Lead was just one Israeli Operation of many. Israel have performed air-raids and bombing offensives on Gaza since then, and performed many before then - each one does not represent a war (if they did this would be "Gaza War 126" or something). Cast Lead was just one in a series of conflicts in a troubled region. The current title seems overly political, misleading, and a misrepresentation of the nature of the operation it relates to. I see from the archives that it is very frequently discussed what this article should be called - yet I didn't find anything explaining why it was deemed reasonable to call it "Gaza War." 124.148.175.199 (talk) 18:05, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
And now that even Hamas acknowledges that at least half of those killed were combatants the (untruthful) claim of massacre can finally be put to pasture.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:34, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, but that's quite irrelevant. The term "Gaza Massacre" may have been used by some media organisations, but is too inflammatory for such a controversial page. That's a separate issue to naming the article "2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict" and referencing Cast Lead at the beginning of the article so people know what the article is about. 124.148.175.199 (talk) 17:15, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- I agree. The name of the Gaza operation should be noted. If there are no objections, I'll add it in the Lead--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 17:57, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- Its removal was based on an RfC Primarily that was focused on the massacre line. I would prefer the operation name be mentioned but not at the cost of asserting that massacre was a common title. Yes there were three sources for massacre but each one was problematic. Removing of OCL was kind of a sledgehammer/IAR/overly focus on one portion of MoS way of handling it. Do we need to bold it to be inline with th MoS?
- There is absolutely zero dispute about what the operational name was. And we do already make it clear that massacre was a common enough description. I also could support "2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict" as the article's title. It looks like the Goldstone report made a deliberate effort to call it a conflict instead of a war. I don't mind war though.Cptnono (talk) 20:03, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- I agree. The name of the Gaza operation should be noted. If there are no objections, I'll add it in the Lead--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 17:57, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, but that's quite irrelevant. The term "Gaza Massacre" may have been used by some media organisations, but is too inflammatory for such a controversial page. That's a separate issue to naming the article "2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict" and referencing Cast Lead at the beginning of the article so people know what the article is about. 124.148.175.199 (talk) 17:15, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
okay so I gather that there is a consensus for inclusion of Operation Cast Lead in the lead.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 15:12, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I think it is the consensus here. And I agree with it too. As for the name, I think Gaza War has been demonstrated to be the widely used common name for this event. There is no call to replace it with a descriptive title because we don't agree with a connotation that it suggests. That's why we have articles on the Cod Wars, Crab Wars, and Turbot War (we won!) for example. Around these parts we had the non-war Pig War and they also had one in Europe. Or the Jerusalem artichoke for an I/P example. --JGGardiner (talk) 22:47, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- OK I edited it to insert " (also known as Operation Cast Lead) " and if anyone else has an opinion on renaming the article let's hear it. Gaza War is fairly inaccurate in my opinion and I have no objections to "2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict". 120.19.208.220 (talk) 11:08, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
- It seems someone removed that bit after I posted it. I'm quite new to wikipedia - what do I do? Just put it back in? The removal hasn't been mentioned by anyone in the discussion page, even though I put a comment next to the edit referring future editors to this part of the discussion. 120.18.141.117 (talk) 14:27, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
- I think it was removed unintentionally when Jiujitsuguy reverted a bunch of edits. I'd say just put it back. Sean.hoyland - talk 14:36, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
- It seems someone removed that bit after I posted it. I'm quite new to wikipedia - what do I do? Just put it back in? The removal hasn't been mentioned by anyone in the discussion page, even though I put a comment next to the edit referring future editors to this part of the discussion. 120.18.141.117 (talk) 14:27, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
- OK I edited it to insert " (also known as Operation Cast Lead) " and if anyone else has an opinion on renaming the article let's hear it. Gaza War is fairly inaccurate in my opinion and I have no objections to "2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict". 120.19.208.220 (talk) 11:08, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Hamas casualties
This article is interesting and sheds further light on Hamas' casualties. In an interview with al-Hayat, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hammad acknowledged that on the first day of war, Hamas lost 250 personnel. He further states that during the course of the war, as many as 300 additional members of the al Qassam brigades were killed and 150 other "security personnel" were killed as well. By Hamas' own acknowledgement, some 700 of its fighters were killed. This is in line with Israeli estimates. Israel confirmed that of those killed in Cast Lead, at least 709 were confirmed guerillas. I think we need to update the casualty figures to reflect the belated Hamas admission.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 16:48, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- Here is a Haaretz source reporting the same. It would be great to get that Hayat source. "History will vindicate" us?--Metallurgist (talk) 17:50, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- Found it: Google Translate and original will need a formal translation. --Metallurgist (talk) 17:55, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
Based on the sources, not only do they now admit to losing many more fighters than they previously acknowledged, they now acknowledge that the so-called policemen who were killed on the first day were actually Hamas gunmen. The article now requires a major overhaul to reflect these new developments and blows some serious holes in the Goldstone report--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:02, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- here is another useful one from AFP. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:01, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- Will this give more fuel to those who claim that casualties were not proportional? --Shuki (talk) 22:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- Excellent sources, particularly the one supplied by NMMNG from AFP. According to AFP the recent numbers supplied by Hamas roughly match the 709 "terror operatives" the Israeli military said it had killed during the fighting, which included members of the Hamas-run police force that has patrolled Gaza since the group seized power in 2007.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 01:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Maan News joins the fray. This is becoming a comedy.--Metallurgist (talk) 08:15, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Excellent sources, particularly the one supplied by NMMNG from AFP. According to AFP the recent numbers supplied by Hamas roughly match the 709 "terror operatives" the Israeli military said it had killed during the fighting, which included members of the Hamas-run police force that has patrolled Gaza since the group seized power in 2007.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 01:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Will this give more fuel to those who claim that casualties were not proportional? --Shuki (talk) 22:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
Under no circumstances should we be using the Jerusalem Post quoting another newspaper. Furthermore, even there the Hamas leader is quoted as saying "On the first day of the war, Israel targeted police stations and 250 martyrs who were part of Hamas and the various factions fell", which does not support Israel's case that they were legitimate targets - or even militants in their spare time. Very noticeable is that the POV tag has been removed from this article, when the whole thing is very POV indeed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.102.15.200 (talk) 09:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- All the sources quote almost, if not, exactly the same thing. I have provided the original article and a Google translation that appears to confirm what Israeli, Foreign, and PA sources say. What has been admitted is that the police were in fact part of Hamas and other terrorist/militant/whatever groups and thus legitimate targets.--Metallurgist (talk) 17:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Adding in a paraphrased quote from the Hamas official should be easy enough. I was thinking about adding it to the Police subsection of disputed figures then realized that section was very long for what it was. It would get lost there. Should we trim that section? We could also simply add it to the end of it.Cptnono (talk) 19:16, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- It should be added in any section that discusses casualties. It is very notable for two reasons. First, it demonstrates that IDF figures were accurate, per the AFP source. Second, it demonstrates that little if nothing Hamas says can be taken seriously. Remember, that after the fighting, Hamas acknowledged the deaths of only 48 of its personnel and now, is admitting that the figure was well over 10x that.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- First point is what I was getting at. Section 5.3.3?Cptnono (talk) 20:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- I had a look at the section you were referring to. I leave it to your capable hands.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 20:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Do we need to amend anything else (tables, other lines in the body, and so on)?Cptnono (talk) 20:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Infobox and maybe a quick mention in the lead, if you're so inclined.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 20:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Do we need to amend anything else (tables, other lines in the body, and so on)?Cptnono (talk) 20:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- I had a look at the section you were referring to. I leave it to your capable hands.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 20:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- First point is what I was getting at. Section 5.3.3?Cptnono (talk) 20:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Metal, I read the articles but I don't see where Hamad admitted the police were legitimate targets. All I saw was that he said the police were "affiliated with" (Ma'an) "part of" (JPost) or "from" (AFP) Hamas and other groups. Only Haaretz, the only one which doesn't quote the man directly, says that Hamad said the police officers were "fighters". We've known that most members of the police were Hamas types since the start; the question is what their combatant status was. --JGGardiner (talk) 20:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Do these two lines work? I didn't really do it with much discussion so please feel free to ask if you want me to self revert.Cptnono (talk) 23:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- We also need a line mentioning that he (and others if I recall correctly) say that 50 Israelis were killed.Cptnono (talk) 23:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Not bad as a start but AFP broke it down this way. 250 "security personnel" identified as "martyrs" plus an additional 300 members of the al-Qassam Brigades, plus another 150 affiliated terrorist/militant groups for a grand total of 700. AFP stressed that this figure was more in line with the IDF figure of 709.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 02:56, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- It should be added in any section that discusses casualties. It is very notable for two reasons. First, it demonstrates that IDF figures were accurate, per the AFP source. Second, it demonstrates that little if nothing Hamas says can be taken seriously. Remember, that after the fighting, Hamas acknowledged the deaths of only 48 of its personnel and now, is admitting that the figure was well over 10x that.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Adding in a paraphrased quote from the Hamas official should be easy enough. I was thinking about adding it to the Police subsection of disputed figures then realized that section was very long for what it was. It would get lost there. Should we trim that section? We could also simply add it to the end of it.Cptnono (talk) 19:16, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Proposed edit concerning recent Hamas admission:
- Following the war, Hamas acknowledged the deaths of only 48 of its fighters. However, in November 2010, Hamas interior minister Fathi Hammad acknowledged that as many as 700 gunmen belonging to Hamas and affiliated factions were killed. His admission was consistent with Israeli estimates of at least 709 “terror operatives” killed during the operation. He also claimed that 50 Israelis were killed but offered no proof of the latter claim.
Comments and critiques are welcome--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 15:54, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Seems OK to me.Slatersteven (talk) 15:59, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- That version suggests that Hamad conflated the police with fighters (or "gunmen") whereas he actually listed them seperately and just notes that they were Hamas people who were killed. Otherwise it is good. --JGGardiner (talk) 23:47, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
Done Thanks for the input fellas. I've also incorporated the figure into the casualty chart and noted that the figure includes all gunmen, including members of the Hamas affiliated Internal Security Service--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 18:53, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- Part of me wants to remove this from the lead. It appears to be pointing fingers and WP:WORDS violation. Of course, I kind of like it since there are no rules in the I-P area regardless of the arbitration. Anyone want it to go or be reworded? If not, then sweet.Cptnono (talk) 05:11, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
- Slim it maybe, but this is crucial to have. The whole article needs to be slimmed down. The problem is that we have two articles in one. But the Hamas confirmation of casualties should force us to reexamine the reliability of parts accusing Israel of atrocities and such. Even without that tho, a lot could be cut down or split off into subarticles.--Metallurgist (talk) 03:21, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Part of me wants to remove this from the lead. It appears to be pointing fingers and WP:WORDS violation. Of course, I kind of like it since there are no rules in the I-P area regardless of the arbitration. Anyone want it to go or be reworded? If not, then sweet.Cptnono (talk) 05:11, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Hamas "Gunmen"
Hamas "gunmen" ??? I thought Hamas was a political organisation who won the last democratic election in Gaza. I guess that makes half the male population of Gaza automatically become "Hamas 'Gunmen' ", but with 240 women dead and 300 Children murdered, how did the accuracy on the 700 "Hamas 'gunmen' " suddenly become so painstakingly accurate??? This is beyond Chuthzpa. It's downright sickening Hitleresque propaganda. Who are the admins here??? May I suggest that people who are of Palestinian, Arab or Jewish descent excuse themselves and refrain from being admins here and that other wikipedia admins see to it that that happens so that this farce does not completely discredit wikipedia for the foreseeable future? No? Why will noone be surprised? Iguess we'll only invent new "guidlines" that support the loudest Orwellians around? And please, don't bother warning me with any of the courtesy crap after the endless series of complete intellectual dishonesty being supported and turned a blind eye to here. Even the term "War" is an insult to any thinking human beings' intelligence. As if the people of Guernika should be thought of as considering themselves at "war" with the pilots in the Nazi-germany bombers.. The level of ridiculousness becomes even more apparent if one ever were to expand the "google hits / search term numbers" argument into almost any other category, but I guess thats a level of abstarction that is lost on more than half of the species so I'll refrain from trying to teach any more reactionaries to make any more efforts 84.215.40.40 (talk) 06:34, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- Apologies for the revert. I completely read my watchlist wrong.
- If you don't like "gunmen" then simply change it. The rest of your paragraph is shit that doesn't even warrant a response.Cptnono (talk) 08:45, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
It's amazing. I can bring up ten different valid points and not a single person bothers to discuss cases point by point in _any_ serious fashion. It's like staring into empty catatonic eyes that dont bat an eyelid when you point out the most glaringly obvious dishonesties. Instead I am met with threats on my userpage, personal attacks, anger and all kinds of bullshit concievable under the sky. Have you guys gone batshit insane? What does it take to get people to utilize their honesty? Pandering and groveling with niceties and begging? Well you can all forget that shit until the common decency of adressing the ISSUES and NOT, language, NOT person, NOT style, prose, courtesy, or any other infantile excuse to avoid the ISSUES. Is there anyone alive in here or is this page administered by the Israeli defense department and a "republican campaign committe to reelect"?? This is for posterity. I dont give a rats ass about your comments and complaints. Just start looking at the ISSUES. 84.215.40.40 (talk) 15:41, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- I guess you're not familiar with Misplaced Pages but nobody is on call to answer your questions. Sometimes questions are answered quickly but others take days, weeks or months. Sometimes they are never answered. It also helps if you just ask questions. If you throw around insults and allegations of Nazi-like bevahiour you make yourself look like a troll and most users won't bother with you. Misplaced Pages is a lot like real life that way.
Your questions also may not have been answered because the answers are mostly in the section above. But if you need some help with that: The 700 figure is not exact and should actually read 6-700. The numbers come from Fathi Hamad, the Interior Minister of Hamas/Gaza/Palestine. As I noted in that section Hamad broke down the numbers between police/security forces (400) and Al-Qassam fighters (2-300) and they shouldn't be lumped together. There are no admins assigned here, they all have general jurisdiction. They are unlikely to ban users from this article based on race. Though I'd be curious to see what happens if you ask. --JGGardiner (talk) 19:55, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Who?
- Why was this tag added to one line but not the one right after it that logically has the same potential concern?
- Critics include some bloggers, some leaders in Hamas, some writers, and so on and so on. Should we list everyone or is "critics" sufficient in an effort to not overbloat the lead?
Cptnono (talk) 21:04, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- Because the second 'critic' was quoted from as sorce "Colonel Richard Kemp". The first one only had "some critics". "Some" bloggers, "some" writers, etc, is not a reliable source. If you have a Hamas critic for that statement, then cite it and put it in. Dinkytown talk 21:14, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- But if I provide the sources for the bloggers and writers then that should logically go in as well, correct? We also do have sources in the body instead of the lead which is acceptable per WP:LEAD. Since the line has been so problematic with sources that are questionable "critics" is an easy and correct fix. Cptnono (talk) 21:16, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sure that someone could find a quote from someone in the New York Times (or other venue) using the term "massacre". If that person is not a 'reliable' critic, then that could be hashed out later. "some critics" is WP:WEASEL. It would be easy enough to find that source. Dinkytown talk 21:39, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- And they are in the body per WP:LEAD. But fine, lets remove the line. I hate it anyways.Cptnono (talk) 02:33, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
- But we can instead do this. LMFAO.Cptnono (talk) 04:44, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
- And they are in the body per WP:LEAD. But fine, lets remove the line. I hate it anyways.Cptnono (talk) 02:33, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sure that someone could find a quote from someone in the New York Times (or other venue) using the term "massacre". If that person is not a 'reliable' critic, then that could be hashed out later. "some critics" is WP:WEASEL. It would be easy enough to find that source. Dinkytown talk 21:39, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- But if I provide the sources for the bloggers and writers then that should logically go in as well, correct? We also do have sources in the body instead of the lead which is acceptable per WP:LEAD. Since the line has been so problematic with sources that are questionable "critics" is an easy and correct fix. Cptnono (talk) 21:16, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
Casualties table nb
Gaza_war#Casualties Can someone change the asterisks to nb tags or something? It looks clunky with the asterisks. I tried to do it myself, but it doesnt allow ref tags within the nb tags. Perhaps just remove the refs outright?--Metallurgist (talk) 04:32, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
- neermind, got it :) --Metallurgist (talk) 07:21, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
"Grad" Rockets?
"Hamas and other militants have no BM-21 Grad launchers, but use 122 mm ammunition in small launchers."
From the Wiki page on Grad : http://en.wikipedia.org/BM-21_Grad
84.215.40.40 (talk) 08:09, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
That's a mistake in the grad page. Marokwitz (talk) 11:14, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Of course there is. Sheeeesh.... 84.215.40.40 (talk) 05:51, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
How do you explain this:
- Please don't count other launchers in the operators list of the article “BM-21”, and please don't enter figures based on speculation at all. And sure as heck don't pull a number out of the air, and remove a “citation needed” tag from an article, as you did here. This is an encyclopedia based on verifiability, not a rumour mill. —Michael Z. 2009-01-08 20:18 z
- This is getting out of hand. We now have several articles coming up in Google news searches which completely confound the BM-21 launcher with 122-mm ammunition (like this one which states that the 13-tonne “BM-21s weigh 150 pounds and are nine feet long”). It's important that we clarify, and not contribute to this confusion. Let's keep the article's nomenclature unambiguous.
- * BM-21 and Grad are names for this mobile launcher
- * 122-mm rockets are the ammunition fired from this and many other launchers, despite how sloppy the news writers are
- Please avoid referring to “Grad rockets”, which confuses the two. —Michael Z. 2009-01-12 21:18 z
Did you just go to the wiki page on the Grad and change the information without citing a single accurate reference??? How dishonest is that? 84.215.40.40 (talk) 09:45, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- The message by Michael Z. is incorrect. BM-21 and Grad are names of the mobile launcher AND the series of associated 122mm rockets. Feel free to read the sources that were added, and especially . Marokwitz (talk) 11:58, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
That's just what Michael Z is saying here. It seems like you hold some opinions that is clouding your vision / ability to interpret his text correctly. But the joker above has still not cited his sources for Hamas having Grad's in _either_ article. But I'm already too sick and disgusted with the level of dishoesty and threats around here. See you all next year. If I can stomach it.84.215.40.40 (talk) 12:49, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not sure who is the "joker" you are referring to, but as the provided sources show, the name Grad refers to either the Grad truck based multi missile launcher (which Hamas apparently *don't* have) or the Grad rocket ammunition (which they *do* have and did use, possibly launched by the 9K132 "Grad-P" Single-round man-portable launcher, or a Chinese equivalent). There are reliable citations in the Grad article for Hamas having and using Chinese made Grad rockets. Marokwitz (talk) 13:18, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- I tend to agree with that. While "Grad" might be the name for the weapon system, the components of it might also be called Grad. This is what most of the sources do as well. As long as we say they are Grad rockets and not a Grad launcher, I think that's fine. I suppose we could say "Grad type rockets" or "122 mm rockets" but I don't think the distinction is that important here. The Chinese part was speculation as I recall. I'm more upset that we still say Israel has "Nagmash" APCs (linked to the M113) even though I found out quite a while ago and mentioned here that Nagmash is just the Hebrew word for APC. --JGGardiner (talk) 19:50, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not sure who is the "joker" you are referring to, but as the provided sources show, the name Grad refers to either the Grad truck based multi missile launcher (which Hamas apparently *don't* have) or the Grad rocket ammunition (which they *do* have and did use, possibly launched by the 9K132 "Grad-P" Single-round man-portable launcher, or a Chinese equivalent). There are reliable citations in the Grad article for Hamas having and using Chinese made Grad rockets. Marokwitz (talk) 13:18, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- The Chinese rockets are actually not a speculation, refer to the sources in the Grad article.Marokwitz (talk) 06:26, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
Incident
This was problematic enough that I removed it. Changing rank while ignoring the source, grammar, focus on one incident, and so on were the deciding factors. Propose a draft or take it to another article. Furthermore, there are a handful of incidents in and not in that could be mentioned but they need to be handled with care since it is obvious that only some are in while others are ignored.Cptnono (talk) 11:48, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
--I have reverted the article back to my edit. This is due to the fact that the information deleted by you was already present in the article but was outdated. The information stated before my edit that the soldiers were charged but gave no details. I added information detailing the incident, the names of the victims the charges and the conviction. The article also stated they were demoted from First sergeant to sergeant. Unless you have some evidence by credible link that any of this information is incorrect or that this is not the case or the citations are incorrect please stop your biased moderation and what I consider Vandalism. Da'oud Nkrumah (talk) 12:41, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
---It further really looks like you just attempted to delete some information you didn't like. I also added information about the judge charging the IDF with manslaughter. This is current information and updated the section with factual, current information. Da'oud Nkrumah (talk) 12:50, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Setting aside the comments about bias and vandalism, I don't think this material qualifies for inclusion unless it is made clear why it's important. Here are some sources that might help to show why these cases are notable within the context of OCL and beyond.
- JPost
- "one of the most high-profile criminal cases from Operation Cast Lead"
- "Military prosecutors had requested that the court impose lengthy prison sentences and demote them to the rank of private for violating the boy’s human rights and the IDF’s code of “purity of arms.”"
- "The IDF probe was opened based on information in a report compiled by a special UN representative appointed to investigate matters involving children and armed conflict"
- BBC "It was reportedly the first such conviction in Israel, where the use of civilians as human shields is banned."
- Bloomberg Comment by HRW "“Under the laws of war, using civilians as human shields is a war crime,” Bill Van Esveld, an Israel-based researcher for Human Rights Watch, said in a phone interview. “It is hard to see how a demotion and a short suspended sentence are adequate to the gravity of that offense.”"
- JPost
- Sean.hoyland - talk 13:07, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Also Da'oud, be careful about the 1RR restriction on this article described at the top of the talk page. You've made one revert so that is your limit for 24 hours. Sean.hoyland - talk 13:12, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for the information Sean. I want to make clear that this information was already in the article. I only added recent facts detailing the convictions and the sentencing and in the second matter (manslaughter charges for the two deaths) I detailed that the investigation and question had in fact turned into manslaughter charges. I will follow the rules of Misplaced Pages and the community of course. I will edit the information to show its notability.Da'oud Nkrumah (talk) 13:20, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- On another matter. Several of the sources differ as to the actual rank of the Israeli soldiers. Bloomberg for instance states they were Staff sergeants while Al Jezeera states they were First sergeants. I notice Israel Defense Forces states the rank as First Sergeant so I will go with Al Jezeera as correct. I am not sure on this so if anyone has additional insight...Da'oud Nkrumah (talk) 14:04, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- You classified a rather substantive edit as "minor" and that's not only misleading and disingenuous, it's disrespectful to other editors who assume that the edit involves a spelling mistake or some other minor correction. In addition, your edit can be substantially shortened. This article is large enough as is without additional fluff that can be summed up with one brief sentence.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 14:11, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Suggest that someone propose a draft that's brief, concise and with a neutral dispassionate tone that one would expect from an encyclopedia.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 14:59, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Exactly. A simple draft was all that as needed instead of accusations of IDONTLIKEIT. In regards to rank, if sources contradict just use "soldiers" or "NCOs", or something. And of course: WP:BRD.Cptnono (talk) 21:41, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- You are not going to remove the section. Especially considering that this info is in a section of the article on Accusations of Misconduct by the IDF. This is the conviction of two IDF soldiers of a war crime. It is the first conviction of its kind in Israeli history, the highest profile trial of its kind and this information was already present in the section with outdated information saying they were charged before I added the facts of conviction and sentencing.
- Exactly. A simple draft was all that as needed instead of accusations of IDONTLIKEIT. In regards to rank, if sources contradict just use "soldiers" or "NCOs", or something. And of course: WP:BRD.Cptnono (talk) 21:41, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Suggest that someone propose a draft that's brief, concise and with a neutral dispassionate tone that one would expect from an encyclopedia.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 14:59, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- You classified a rather substantive edit as "minor" and that's not only misleading and disingenuous, it's disrespectful to other editors who assume that the edit involves a spelling mistake or some other minor correction. In addition, your edit can be substantially shortened. This article is large enough as is without additional fluff that can be summed up with one brief sentence.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 14:11, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- On another matter. Several of the sources differ as to the actual rank of the Israeli soldiers. Bloomberg for instance states they were Staff sergeants while Al Jezeera states they were First sergeants. I notice Israel Defense Forces states the rank as First Sergeant so I will go with Al Jezeera as correct. I am not sure on this so if anyone has additional insight...Da'oud Nkrumah (talk) 14:04, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for the information Sean. I want to make clear that this information was already in the article. I only added recent facts detailing the convictions and the sentencing and in the second matter (manslaughter charges for the two deaths) I detailed that the investigation and question had in fact turned into manslaughter charges. I will follow the rules of Misplaced Pages and the community of course. I will edit the information to show its notability.Da'oud Nkrumah (talk) 13:20, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- You are not removing the facts which as they now stand are absolutely relevant and NPOV. Two IDF soldiers being convicted of a war crime is certainly more relevant then the preceding paragraph where there is an entire paragraph with a IDF soldiers saying the only Gazan human shields were those used by Hamas. That is probably why this information was present in the article to begin with. Sorry you don't like the facts but they are facts. It further balances all the claims throughout the article that the IDF are completely innocent and devoid of any type of misconduct. If you want to condense the article you should start with some of that.
- In the last section I corrected that. It was two deaths not one. Also the soldier charged admitted to firing on a woman so this statement that the investigators couldn't determine... is false and misleading. Da'oud Nkrumah (talk) 23:43, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
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