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Archive 1 (July 2004–March 2006) Archive 2 (March–April 2006) (includes naming debate and poll) Archive 3 (March–Sept 2006) Archive 4 (Oct 2006–Oct 2007) Archive 5 (Oct 2007–Oct 2008) Archive 6 (Oct 2008–June 2009) Archive 7 (June–Dec 2009) Archive 8 (Jan-Feb 2010) Archive 9 (Feb-Jun 2010)

semi protection

When an unregistered editor hops ips to edit war the only possible outcome is semi-protection. Please desist or it will end up being an awful lot longer then just 3 days. Spartaz 20:41, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Buenos Aires invaded in 1806

Could you please tell me where on earth did you get that crazy notion that the British never invaded Buenos Aires?? A Google search of the phrase "British invasions of Buenos Aires" yields 25,000 results!! The same search (in Spanish) using these words: "invasiones inglesas Buenos Aires 1806" yields 117,000 results!! You must be absolutely mad to delete something like that, since it shows the historical context in which the so-called Re-establishment of British rule on the Falkland Islands in 1833 took place! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.224.219.53 (talk) 20:54, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

The fact of the British invasions of the Río de la Plata - which I remind you took place at a time when the UK and Spain were at war - does not imply any of the following variously POV, unsourced, and entirely false assertions or implications made by your edit:

• That the islands were definitively placed in the Viceroyalty of the River Plate in 1811.
• That the islands were in any way involved in the May Revolution.
• That Spain lost control of the islands to the government of the Viceroyalty of the River Plate in 1810.
• That Daniel Jewett was not relieved of his command prior to his return to South America.
• That there was an Argentine settlement on the islands prior to 1828.
• That Luis Vernet did not seek and receive British permission to found his colony.
• That the Argentine government, as opposed to a private enterprise run by Luis Vernet, founded the colony in 1828.
• That "When Argentina broke away from Spain, in 1810, it was clear that the new nation had inherited the Spanish claim."
• That Argentina "broke away" from Spain in 1810.
• That the events of January 1833 had anything to do with the recapture of Cape Town or the Invasions of the River Plate in 1806.
• That the British settlement was and remains a "colony".
• That three Falkland Islanders were not killed in 1982.
• That "the islands' population has waxed and waned constantly".
• That "lthough islanders now call themselves a "nation", both islander and British authorities are reluctant to release figures on emmigration to metropolitan Britain and immigration from Britain proper. Nor do they release figures on what percentage of islanders constitue belongers"
• That this last point, if accurate, has anything whatsoever to do with the demographics of the Falkland Islands.

I'm sure there are more, but those were the obvious ones. Pfainuk talk 21:20, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Could you please read some books. The Viceroyalty of the Rio de la Plata ceased to exist in 1810, when Argentina broke away from Spain. The very same article states that Spain maintained a settlement since 1776, administered from Buenos Aires! It was in 1776 that the Spanish crown created the Viceroyalty and placed the islands under its jurisdiction.

Also, where are your sources stating that most of the populatiion are not belongers? Where are your figures on the make up of the local population? I'm curious :)

Uhm. The correct response to 'You don't have sources for X' is not to say 'Well you don't have sources saying it isn't X'. The correct response is to provide sources. If I put in that Ireland is a country off the western coast of Great Britain and source that, I cannot go on to say that Ireland is filled by giant friendly badgers who are highly intelligent and engaged in genetic manipulation of man to bring us to our current level of development. Just because I can source one thing, does not give you carte blance to synthesise, OR, make up, put your point of view across, suggest, create or whatever the rest of the article. --Narson ~ Talk • 21:57, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Pfainuk is correct, both invasions are unrelated. As said, Britain and Spain were at war by the time (or, more exactly, Britain was at war with Napoleonic France, and Spain was allied with France). Napoleon had imposed the "Continental System", preventing Britain to trade with most of Europe, so Britain was forced to seek new markets. Legally, the Spanish colonies in the Americas were not a viable option either, as they could only trade with their own metropoli. However, if some cities were military invaded, such legal restrictions may be simply turned down. Buenos Aires and Montevideo were good strategic options: besides their own importance, they held the entry to the Parana and Uruguay rivers, and the means to reach Paraguay and south Brazil as well; and were weakly defended. So, there were 2 attempts to seize those cities, but fortunately (for us) Liniers defeated them in both times. The international scenario changed soon after that: France invaded its own ally, Spain, and designated a French king in Spain. The rest of Spain standed against Napoleon, and Britain changed sides consequently: as the enemy wasn't really Spain but France, and France turned against Spain, Britain joined Spain in their struggle against Napoleon. Meaning, no third invasion: the value of having Spain as an ally against Napoleon, instead of as another country to fight against, was infinitely more valuable than the profits that may be obtained by ruling Buenos Aires.

By 1833 (almost 3 decades later) almost none (if any) of the variables of this scenario were still standing. Argentina was now independent from Spain, there was no ongoing declared war between Argentina and Britain, the war against Napoleon and the Continental System were past history, Buenos Aires trading only with Spain was history as well, etc, etc. So, no, both events are completely unrelated and developed as they did for completely different sets of historical reasons. MBelgrano (talk) 22:54, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

The edits are also inaccurate, the FIG has a regular census and publishes the results on its website. It does release figures on ethnicity and country of origin. For information about 50% of the current population was born there but this largely reflects the doubling of the population since 1982. Also the influx includes Argentines, Chilean, St Heleans and it is not just from the UK. In addition, a UK citizen is no more, no less likely to achieve "belonger" status than anyone else. Justin talk 09:25, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

"and Britain changed sides consequently" Changed sides? Britain didn't change sides, Spain did. And did you know the 1806 raid on Buenos Aires was unauthorised? Sir Home Popham, the commander of the expedition was court-martialled for leaving his post in the Cape without authorisation: Home Popham court-martial Dab14763 (talk) 20:24, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Spain did, and then Britain. Moving from considering Spain an enemy into condisering it an ally is indeed a change. If Britain didn't "change sides", it would had simply let its enemy be conquered. An all-winning scenario: Britain would get rid of Spain, and without any risk or potencial loss in its own military forces. And yes, I'm aware of that reaction, which took place after the defeat of the invasion. Thing is that Pitt and Miranda had already been planning such a move before. Popham may have been trialed for acting too soon, or without following the command line; but not because of invading a country that Britain had no intention to invade. After all, which was the reaction in Britan when they learned about this? Did they order the invaders to retire and return Buenos Aires to Spain? And when the first invasion failed... didn't they try another one right away, the immediate following year? To consider that Britain was unrelated with the invasion because Popham was court-martialed is a mere technicism, like when it is said that the US hasn't lost the Vietnam War because there wasn't any formal declaration of war MBelgrano (talk) 21:15, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

So? The commander still acted without authorisation, the fact that they decided to exploit it is irrelevant, the fact they'd considered it is irrelevant - it had not been decided upon as a course of action. It is not a mere technicism. This is also not the place to discuss it. Justin talk 10:32, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

The real issue from Misplaced Pages's point of view is "Was the British action in Buenos Aires in 1806 related to the Falkland Islands?" If it was unrelated, then it has no place in this article; if it was related, then the relationship should be documented using, insofar as is possible, unbaised sources. My own view, based in my knowledge of European and South African history, is that the 1806 action was part of the Napoleonic Wars - whereas the Britsh actions in the mid-1830's were entirely unrelated to that campaign. I therefore do not see the connection. For the record, in 1833 the British policy in the Cape Colony was tied up with frontier wars against the Xhosa and handling dissident Dutch settlers who were about to leave the colony and trek into the interior. Justin is quite right in asserting that these events had no connection with the Falkland Islands. Martinvl (talk) 19:14, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Your analysis is well done and to the point; I agree with its conclusions. Apcbg (talk) 07:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Uk has been allways imperialist and has managed the international comerce since 3 centuries ago. Of course the two events has connections, it is always about money for the crown. Southern atlantic was and is an extrategical and excelent position to claim for antartic territory. This is the real topic here and is a fact per se. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.213.116.94 (talk) 00:49, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Falklands is a Non-Self-Governing Territory

I wonder why the article says the islands are "self-governing" when the territory is on the United Nations' List of Non-Self-Governing Territories. The reference to back "self-government" is the website of the Falklands Government, not exactly a neutral source. JCRB (talk) 22:29, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I would appreciate editors PfainUK and Apcbg would discuss this issue here, instead of reverting edits that could lead to WP:EW. JCRB (talk) 09:27, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The Falklands are an internally self-governing territory, with huge amounts of control over internal affairs. The UN list just deals with areas leftover from the UN's decolonizing drive, it is not an accurate judge of the actual level of self-governance in the territory. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:41, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Dear JCRB, I responded to your message on this issue on my talk page few days ago; however, as you persist, I am reproducing my response here too: "Hi, as far as I can recall the Falklands self-government has already been discussed in some talk page (don't remember where exactly, but Justin might know I believe), and it was pointed out that the Falklands (same as the other UK overseas territories) enjoy a higher degree of self-government than e.g. Scotland for they have exclusive ownership of their natural resources, pursue their own immigration policies (subject to which are the UK residents too) etc. Being on that UN list is just that, being on some list, which does not interfere with their actual self-government. Otherwise, the present lede is the result of consensus among the editors involved, and its change would require a new consensus that would seem not to have resulted from your quoted post in the talk page. Best, Apcbg (talk) 09:31, 30 September 2010 (UTC)" Apcbg (talk) 10:24, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Would it not be appropriate to rewrite the section as "Although the Falkland Islands are on the United Nations list of non-self-governing territories,<ref> they are largely self-governing, with most affairs being under the control of a directly elected administration with the British Government retaining the control of the nomination of the Governor (who has no vote in council matters), foreign affairs, defence and the right of veto over any "perverse" legisation.<ref>

(I think that this is factually correct - I have not had an opportunity to check its details. Justin talk 12:04, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

No its not correct and its unnecessary. The criteria for inclusion by the C24 is bizarre in that it bears no relationship to whether a territory is self-governing or not. The C24 criteria lists states that are:

• A sovereign state
• An integral part of a sovereign state
• A state in free association with a sovereign state

The C24 list is used to promote a less than honest view of the level of self-government enjoyed by territories such as the Falklands. Its used and abused by POV pushers to deny the status of such territories to promote the fiction that they remain British colonies. Misplaced Pages should be about explaining crap like this to our readers but no instead so often its used as a platform to promote nationalist POV. But hey policies like WP:NPOV don't mean anything anyway. Justin talk 12:04, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, it is most unnecessary, adding absolutely nothing to the lead and detracting from what is already there. It is already included in the politics section anyway. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:13, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

My point too, the UN list has no place in the lede. Apcbg (talk) 12:56, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The representation of the UN list as argued for by JCRB is entirely misleading and inappropriate. It's POV pushing from a perennial POV pusher. Nothing much more to discuss, really. Pfainuk talk 17:09, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Pfainuk, your tone and accusations of being a "POV pusher" are out of line. You had better stick to objective facts and drop the ad hominem comments. There is nothing "misleading" or "inappropriate" in putting factual information on this article. The Falklands, like the Cayman Islands, like Gibraltar, are on the UN List of Non-Self-Governing Territories. It's a simple fact. You can't just say the Falklands are "self-governing" and ignore this fact. JCRB (talk) 14:38, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

It isn't ignored and is discussed. Your proposed edit is misleading and inappropriate and you've ignored the comments on the content you propose to impose it against consensus. Justin talk 15:49, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

The fact is ignored in the introductory paragraph. What's misleading is to say that the territory is "self-governing", when the United Nations calls it "Non-self-governing". A slight contradiction, wouldn't you say? JCRB (talk) 10:31, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

The UN's "non-self governing" just means it's not independent or part of a country. No contradiction, as this is true, and it is mentioned that it's a dependency (or overseas territory) of the UK. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 11:21, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I Googled "Self governing" and applied the filter "site:.fk" - every hit that described the Falkland Islands as being "self governing" had a qualifier of one sort or another. A similar thing happened when I applied the "site:.fco.gov.uk" filter. When Justin revoked the change where I introduced the word "internal", he stated that the word "internal" was implied by the statement "self-governing". I beg to differ. If both the British Governemnt and the Falkland Government always qualify the description "self government" with the word "internal" or some similar word, the Misplaced Pages should do likewise.Martinvl (talk) 22:32, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

When we talk about Australia for example do we feel the need to point out that a democratic country is "self-governing"? The very phrase implies that it is domestic matters, otherwise there is no necessity to qualify the statement. Tell me, before our erstwhile POV warrior raised it, did you feel it was necessary? If the answer is no, you have the answer. Justin talk 22:57, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

unindent

BTW, you had to qualify your search, ie had to apply an element of original research. 'nuff said? Justin talk 22:59, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, Australia is a sovereign independent state. Secondly, Everything in Misplaced Pages should be researched to ensure that facts are correct and the a neutral point of view is taken. It is however not permitted to engage in original research. I went to school in South Africa and a good part of teh historu syllabus was devoted to constitutional development. Martinvl (talk) 09:05, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

This is lede fixation. The point of the lede is not to put everything into the article in all its gory detail. If it was, then there wouldn't be any point in putting an article underneath it. The lede is there to summarise the topic only.

If readers want to know what a BOT is, then we link to a perfectly serviceable article British Overseas Territory dealing with precisely this point. If they want to know details of the self-government enjoyed by the Falklands, we again have a perfectly serviceable Politics section of this article. There is benefit in distinguishing those BOTs that are self-governing from those that are under direct rule, but no benefit in going on and on about exactly what powers are involved in each case in the lede. Pfainuk talk 10:40, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I have no objection to things being researched but to be blunt the point I raised has not been addressed. I agree with Pfainuk, its explained and amplified in the article, there is no need to added superfluous material. Justin talk 15:17, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Chipmunkdavis, Misplaced Pages is not about truth, it's about verfiability. "Non-self-governing" is exactly the opposite of "self-governing". I'm afraid there's not much room to argue on this point unless you provide new reliable information. As for the results of a Google search, that's not exactly "verfiable" info. Regarding Justin's accusations of POV, it would seem that calling the Falklands "self-governing" is exactly that: British POV or bias. The sentence tries justify the territory's status of dependency. I believe a similar discussion took place in the Gibraltar page, and after a long debate the editors decided to eliminate the phrase "self-governing" altogether. JCRB (talk) 16:29, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

As much as I love being lectured, I don't see where it's coming from in this case, as in the comment you're referring to I agreed to the legitimacy of the non-self governing claim, and called that "true". This is however, used in a different sense. Politics and diplomacy have few, if any, black and whites. The UN list contains territories which are not "integrated into the country", "In free association", or "independent". There are plenty of sources out there which call the Falklands self-governing. The UK even wants the Falklands of the UN list . The Falkland government website backs this up . It's the bias of the Falklanders too, if it is bias. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:01, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Even then, the C24 list has become a bit of a political football, based as much if not more on the popularity of the administering powers among the committee members' governments as it is on objective assessment of those three criteria (let alone an objective assessment of the actual degree of self-governance). There are plenty of examples of this: Mozambique and Angola were on the list prior to independence despite being integrated into Portugal, for example, but Hong Kong is not on the list despite not being particularly integrated into China. We then have the bizarrely contradictory position by which Western Sahara is not integral to any state, not in free association with any state, not independent and has no "administering power" (again, a misleading term in the case of places like the Falklands and Bermuda that administer themselves). But at the same time is not terra nullius.

But you can repeat that until you're blue in the face. Take it from someone who's been there before: you won't get anywhere with JCRB, who will ignore any facts that don't fit with his POV. At this stage the best thing to do would be to point out that there is consensus against his change and close the discussion. Pfainuk talk 17:27, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

The lede should be factually accurate as it stnds. I do not believe that "self governing" is factually accurate, but including the text "enjoys a large measure of internal self government" is accurate (or at any rate can be attributed to both the GIG and the FCO websites. We should therefore either remove the words "self-governing" from the lede or incorportate some kind of qualification such as the phase above. Martinvl (talk) 18:17, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

No sorry, the lede has been there uncontroversially as an established consensus since 2005. It is factually accurate, it is cited and it is a neutral description. More importantly it is amplified below in the article. Given that it is so widely cited, your assertion it is inaccurate is simply not sustainable. Hence, I would oppose that proposal. Justin talk 22:54, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

It is of course quite possible that the question of self-governemnt has been misrepresented in Misplaced Pages since 2005. In any case the constitution was overhauled in 2008. This alone is good enough reason to revist that statement. In it the Governor has the power to overrule the Executive Council in a number of areas - see para 67 of the Falkland Islands Constitution Order 2008. Also, can you find an authoritative verifiable source that states that the Falkland Islands has "self government" without a qulification of the type made by the FIG or the FCO? Martinvl (talk) 23:24, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually no, it would never last 5 minutes on this article if it weren't sustainable. May I suggest you do a little research because yes you can easily find independent authoritative verifiable sources sustaining exactly the current edit without any qualification whatsoever eg . The revised constitution of 2008 simply grants greater devolution of powers to the FIG and further limits the role of the Governor. Hence, you assertion that the constitution of 2008 somehow lessens self-governance seems rather inappropriate. And again we're discussing the lede, the content is amplified in the article. If we end up adding qualifiers in an attempt to satisfy POV pushers, all you'll do is encourage them to persist. So far you're proposing an edit to the lede, prompted by a perennial POV pusher that actually detracts from the article and is based upon a false premise. The lede needs to be brief and factual, the rest is amplified in the article. Pfainuk is right, this is lede fixation. Justin talk 23:47, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

LOL. It is incredible that you call the United Nations List a "false premise". Your "authoritative" and "independent" sources happen to be the British Government and the BBC, not exactly "neutral" I would say. The alleged "self-governing" phrase is also backed by the website of the government of the Falklands, which of course is the exact opposite of "neutral". So except for British sources, there is nothing about "self-government" in any reliable independent material. Quite logical in fact, as this is a British overseas territory. The fact that local issues are dealt locally does not qualify for self-governing.

As for repeating well-sustained information "until you're blue in the face" as you call it, well, that seems to be the only option when editors like yourself resort to beating about the bush and rejecting reliable sources like the United Nations. Frankly, you loose credibility when you call the UN "a political football" pitch. As for your accusations of "POV pusher", again I would ask you to stop the ad hominem attacks. I would also suggest you looked in the mirror: your insistence on putting that senetence in the lede is exactly POV, as well as "lede fixation". The Falklands are a Crown Colony or an overseas territory of the UK, and the phrase "self-governing" appears to be a subtle attempt to soften its colonial status. A similar discussion took place in Gibraltar and that's why the sentence was finally eliminated. JCRB (talk) 11:44, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

In the opening sentence of this section, User:JRCB wrote "The reference to back "self-government" is the website of the Falklands Government, not exactly a neutral source". He was incorrect in one respect - the opening sentence did not reflect what the source said. I have inserted an extract the FIG statement as it appears in the original text. The FIG text is compatible with the UN statements about self-government. Moreover, I have change the link from self-government to self-governing colony. The latter is more appropriate (and is worth a read). Martinvl (talk) 20:32, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

The link to the article self-governing colony was utterly inappropriate, the Falklands and other BOT are most definitely not a colony in any way shape or form and to make that link is synthesise and original research. As has been explained on this very talk page, the UN text and the FIG text are comparing apples with oranges and using the UN text in the mannner proposed is misleading and misrepresenting the UN position to advance a fiction. Rejecting sources based on nationality is horrendously POV and is in fact racist, similarly abusing sources to portray a fiction based on dogma is a complete violation of our policy of NPOV. NPOV is based upon an objective portrayal of facts not dogma. Justin talk 20:44, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Mind, JCRB does very well in illustrating my point about his tactics. He ignores the valid points as to why taking the naming of the C24 list as gospel is a bad idea: instead he appears to argue the absurd point that the UN is incapable of bias. One wonders whether he would consider it neutral to support the South Korean side in the Korean War or the Kuwaiti side in the Gulf War. Of course, this point will be summarily ignored by JCRB.

I also had the same thought as Justin regarding his dismissal of sources based solely on country of origin. The BBC has an incredible reputation throughout the world for journalistic credibility and neutrality, a reputation reconfirmed by their coverage of the 1982 war over these islands. But no, JCRB says they're not neutral because they're based in the UK. Justin calls this argument racist. I agree with Justin.

On Martin's edit? The same problems that it had before have not been addressed. The edit proposed remains redundant. Redundant to the article British Overseas Territory and redundant to the Politics section of this article. It is still a case of lede fixation - insisting that this point has to be addressed to the tiniest detail in the lede when we already deal with it in the article. Or do you propose that we delete the rest of the article and just put the entire contents in the lede?

On self-governing colony. Given the pejorative way in which the word "colony" is used by nationalists from some countries (including Spain and Argentina), that is not a particularly wise choice of articles to link to: it is likely to be considered highly offensive by the islanders. And regardless of the name, it does not provide any significant information that is not already provided by the article British Overseas Territory. If something is likely to be offensive, we ought to be careful about only using it where necessary. In this case, it is redundant to British Overseas Territory, and thus not necessary. As such it should not be included. Pfainuk talk 21:39, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I observe that yet again Martinvl seeks to impose a solution, ignoring the consensus building process of WP:BRD. As I will not be indulging him in an edit war may I respectfully suggest someone else revert him with the polite request to discuss rather than arbitrarily and unilaterally disprupting the consensus building process. He has removed an important qualifier that separates those BOT that are populated and have devolved Government, from those BOT that only have a transient scientific or military population and do not. But I do give notice of my intention to restore the existing consensus presently. Justin talk 22:59, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I will take your comments one by one:

• Nobody is saying the United Nations is "dogma" or "gospel", or that it is "incapable of bias". Every institution and person in the world has some sort of bias, even if small. This does not prevent me from stating that the UN is a verifiable source beyond any reasonable doubt. Read here about verfiability: WP:VERIFY.
• The BBC and the British Government are not neutral sources for issues relating to the Falklands because Britain is one of the parties involved in the Falklands dispute. Would you take Argentinian sources to back sensitive political information on the territory? Would you quote the Turkish Government on the situation of Cyprus, or the Moroccan government on the disputed situation of Western Sahara? See here for other examples of disputed territories.
• Regardless of the above, the aggresive, condescending and disrespectful attitude of certain editors in this discussion is just not tolerable. Name-calling such as "POV pusher" and a general belligerant attitude goes against the principles of etiquette and assuming good faith. Regardless of our points of view, the discussion should be constructive and more polite. JCRB (talk) 11:40, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, well, well, let us take these points 1 by 1.

• No one said any such thing about the UN, we merely point out the UN criteria are not actually related to Governance and abusing UN sources to mean they do is mendacious and misleading.
• This is actually nonsense. Disqualifying a source for reporting verifiable objective facts solely on the basis of their nationality is not acceptable and nothing in NPOV sustains that argument - it is verging on the very worst form of racism. Secondly it is elevating dogmatic rejection of reality to the same level as the objective verifiable information required for NPOV. As the rest of the hysterical hyperbole, I refer to my previous comments about dogma ignoring verifiable facts. I can and do use Argentine sources frequently but not when dogma causes them to ignore verifiable facts. It happens to be a judgement call, which is achieved through reasonable discussion and the consensus building process.
• If you feel hurt by the label "POV pusher", then simply stop your usual practise of endlessly repeating the same worn tired argument, listen to and respond to the arguments of others. Constantly pushing POV statements, such as abusing the UN statements to deny verifiable facts when you're comparing apples and oranges, then you will be labelled as a POV pusher and ultimately ignored. Justin talk 12:02, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

• The UN criteria "are not actually related to Governance"? According to who? So you mean the Falklanders run their own military, their own police, their own treasury, their own foreign affaris with embassies all over the world? That's a good one. The UN's List of NON-self-governing territories means they are dependent, ie the contrary of independent. The Falklands government locally runs some internal affairs like a municipality or a province runs local issues, but that doesn't mean they are self-governing. They are still dependent on a central state: the United Kingdom. That's why they are NON-self-governing. Get it? As for "abusing" UN sources, who is abusing them? Personally, I'm just quoting them. If you don't like editors quoting verifiable sources then find another encyclopedia where only personal opinions are accepted.
• As for your accusations of racism, well, they're just another example of your belligerent attitude. I won't make any comments except that they're ludicrous. The media of a certain country involved in a territorial dispute cannot be used as a "neutral" source for issues which are the subject of the dispute, namely political issues. At best, such sources must be used with caution. You talk of "dogma", but it is you who uses dogma (and British sources) to push that the Falklands are self-governing. As for your use of Argentinian sources except "when dogma causes them to ignore verifiable facts" you are proving my point. Sources from the countries involved in the dispute can be, and usually are, biased.
• It's not a question of me "being hurt", it's a question of you "being respectful". If I said you have a huge British bias that you don't try to hide, would that hurt? As for "endlessly repeating the same worn tired argument" I don't think it's worn out at all. It's a strong and well-referenced argument. But somehow, editors like you don't like it and keep rejecting the source. Finally, as for "responding to arguments" I just have. I wish you did too, without beating about the bush. JCRB (talk) 22:24, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

• Precisely you prove my point, the UN criteria is related to statehood not governance. And the Falklands runs all of its own affairs. The exceptions are defence and foreign relations. The latter do not discount the description as Andorra for example is classified as an independent state but France and Spain are responsible for defence and foreign relations. The mere fact that sovereignty resides with the UK and the territory is classed in legal terms as a dependent territory does not mean it is not self-governing.
• Deriding sources solely on the basis of their nationality does smack of racism. You also confuse 3rd party with neutral party, in fact in many cases a 3rd party could hardly be classed as neutral eg Chavez from Venezuela on the Falklands. Sources need to be judged on their merits but equating nationality with bias is fraught. I never said sources from a participant couldn't be biased, sure they can be, and that is why we have to separate fact from opinion. But rejecting sources on the basis of their nationality is not grounds for wikipedia.
• No your argument is not robust, it doesn't stand up to logical scrutiny. On the basis of a single source, the UN, you deny others on the basis of semantics, the nouns used. But if we actually examine what that source means, we find there is no contradiction as you assert. Yet when this is pointed out, you simply repeat the argument again, or as you've done here resort to personal abuse - "editors like you don't like it". Yet when people tire of this cyclic argument and label you a "POV Warrior" you're the first to complain. Justin talk 23:03, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

• My question was "according to who is the UN criteria not related to governance"? If the criteria are related to "statehood" as you claim, please provide the sources which say so. If the Falklands run "all of its affairs EXCEPT for" whatever (defence and foreign affairs or others) then it does not qualify as a Self-governing territory. If anything it is partly self-governing. That's why the UN calls it a NON-self governing territory. Please don't make me repeat this argument.
• Frankly I don't get you accusations of "racism". We're talking about reliable (unbiased) sources based on nationality, not race. We could end up discussing who or what are "appropriate" sources (BBC, UK government, Argentinian government or media etc) but there's absolutely no need. The United Nations is a sufficiently reliable and respectable source which nobody would question (except you).
• My argument is not "robust"? That's funny, I can't imagine a stronger argument than quoting a source like the UN to prove a point. It's not only "semantics" but the meaning underneath: the Falklands are a colony of Great Britain, that's why they are not self-governing. As for a "single" source, the UN should be enough (in anybody's eyes). JCRB (talk) 15:30, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

The UN has a stated agenda. They are not unbiased. This is elementary understanding I would expect from A-level students or first year degree students. --Narson ~ Talk • 16:36, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Not to mention the fact that the UN doesn't make the claim that JCRB ascribes to it - not, you may recall, the first time he's done this. The UN says that the Falklands aren't independent, an associated state, or integral to another state - none of which have much to do with self-governance. JCRB finds this fact inconvenient, and chooses to ignore it in pursuit of his POV push. Not the first time he's done that either.

Similarly, he's trying to argue that the mere fact of being British means that a source is inherently unreliable and biased, regardless of any other factor. Even if it's the BBC, whose reputation for impartiality is unparalleled internationally. When we point out that this argument is racist, he tries to cover up by saying that he's arbitrarily dismissing every source with a given nationality, rather than a given ethnicity - and then repeats the claim that the UN says something that it does not say.

Frankly, there's no point in continuing this. There is very clearly consensus against the proposed edit. The discussion has come to its natural conclusion, with no benefit likely to result from prolonging it. As such, I consider it closed and suggest that others do likewise. Pfainuk talk 17:56, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

What a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Here we've got a few long-time editors attempting at all cost to harass and prevent the efforts to add any sort of NPOV clarity to a particular issue. Once again it begins with WP:EW after which a long-winded conversation replete with circular logic and non-sequiturs because this cabal of editors refuses to agree on even the most simple change to a header. About 2 months on and JCRB has given up - just as they wished.

Well I'm not going anywhere. THERE IS NO CONSENSUS ON THIS ISSUE OR ANY OF THE OTHER ISSUES IN WHICH EDITORS HAVE SIMPLY "GIVEN UP" AFTER YOU HAMMER AWAY AT THEM ENDLESSLY. YOU WILL NOT HAMMER AWAY AT ME. THE EW WILL CONTINUE UNTIL YOU ABIDE BY THE RULES.

"British version of events"

Where are the sources disputing the fact that the islanders reject Argentinian claims of sovereignty? We do not need "according to the British Government" in that first sentence which makes it sound like it is a questionable claim. It is in fact a blatant fact and it does not need watering down with " according to one side in the war".... BritishWatcher (talk) 23:29, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

From the source given:

The British Government has no doubt about Britain's sovereignty over the Falkland Islands. With the exception of the 2 months of illegal occupation in 1982, the Falklands have been continuously, peacefully and effectively inhabited and administered by Britain since 1833. Argentina's claim to the Falklands is based on the grounds that, at the time of British repossession of the Islands in 1833, Argentina had sovereignty over them through her inheritance, upon independence, of Spain's possessory title (uti possedetis), through her attempts to settle the Islands between 1826 and 1833, and through the concept of territorial contiguity. However, uti possedetis is not accepted as a general principle of international law. Moreover Spain's title to the Islands was disputed and in 1811 the Spanish settlement was evacuated, leaving the Islands without inhabitants or any form of government. Argentina's subsequent attempts at settlement were sporadic and ineffectual. As for territorial contiguity, this has never been a determinant for title to islands (otherwise the Canary Islands, for example, might be Moroccan) and should not be used to overrule the right of self-determination. The Argentine Government has argued that the Falkland Islanders do not enjoy the right of self-determination, on the (false) basis that they replaced an indigenous Argentine population expelled by force. However there was no indigenous or settled population on the Islands until British settlement. The people who live in the Falklands now are not a transitory population. Many can trace their origins in the Islands back to the early 19th century. Britain is committed to defend their right to choose their own future. The Islanders are fully entitled to enjoy the right of self-determination.

I'm sorry, but that sounds like it was written by someone from the British gov't, not from a scholar in the field or from actual islanders. The phrasing should reflect such. Soxwon (talk) 23:35, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

But i presume the wording is based on this part of the text..

"In exercise of their right of self-determination, the Falkland Islanders have repeatedly made known their wish to remain British. An Argentine-inspired poll, conducted in 1994, revealed that 87% of them would be against any form of discussion with Argentina over sovereignty, under any circumstances." BritishWatcher (talk) 23:42, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

If you wish to question the fact the islanders reject Argentinian sovereignty, please provide sources to back up this WP:FRINGE view. The Argentinians do not even recognise the islanders right to self determination, the people are hardly crying out for liberation. It should be stated as fact the Islanders reject their claim, not "according to one side" they reject it. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:44, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Some examples that this is not just British government POV about the views of the islanders..

"Politically, the Legislature and Her Majesty's Government (HMG) remain committed to developing their partnership founded on self-determination, internal self-government and British sovereignty.

FIG hopes for peaceful co-existence between Argentina and the Falkland Islands, without diluting or adapting the position on sovereignty. For as long as there is a perceived threat from Argentina, a military presence on the Islands will be maintained on a scale sufficient to deter aggression and provide a holding capability pending reinforcement.

With the continued support of the UK, the Falkland Islands can look forward to an even brighter future." Falkland Islands Government website

and..

"Councillors to Attend UN C24

Councillors Janet Robertson and Richard Stevens will attend the United Nations C24 Committee on Decolonisation in New York on 12 June. The meeting will allow the Councillors to rebut the Argentine Sovereignty claim and query why Islanders are not deemed, like other self-governing countries, to have the right to self-determination."

and..

"Speaking on behalf of the Falkland Islands Government, Councillor Mike Summers OBE said that the Islanders' right to determine their own future was now embedded in the main body of the Constitution:

"Our inalienable right to self-determination is in line with the European Convention on Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Furthermore it was endorsed by the United Nations Fourth Committee (Special Political and Decolonisation) on 20 October this year.

"This is a post-colonial Constitution which the Falkland Islands Government initiated and on which the Falkland Island people were consulted. It recognises the reality of the modern world in which the rights of free peoples are paramount and the assertion of territorial rights, irrespective of the wishes of those who live there, has no place.

"Falkland Islanders have freely exercised their right of self-determination on numerous occasions by clearly indicating their wish to remain British. This new Constitution re-states our right to decide our own future and enhances our powers of self-government. Surely no one who supports democracy and civil rights can oppose this?"

Argentinian claims to the Falklands are clearly rejected by the islanders. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:42, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

And from a couple of weeks ago...

"MLA Sawle said ” I am delighted to be attending the conference on behalf of the Falkland Islands, and have been invited to be a discussion leader in section three of the 30th Small Branches conference. The topic for debate that I will be speaking on is entitled “The challenge of sovereignty in small states.”

"I will be hoping to correct a few misunderstandings in the international community regarding the Argentine claim to sovereignty, but will be concentrating on the difficulties that small countries such as ours face when trying to deal with the challenge.”"

The document linked on that page by MLA Sawle says:

"And in the case of the falkland islands, where the overwhelming will of the people is to remain under British sovereignty, the sovereignty claim by Argentina can never be seen as anything more than a cynical attempt for outright ownership and control, something which is totally unacceptable in a developed modern and democratic world"

The democratically elected Member of the Legislative Assembly (that got the most votes in the 2009 general election), representing the democratic government of the Falklands, then goes into some detail crushing the Argentinian sovereignty claims. BritishWatcher (talk) 01:01, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

According to the British Government

It is obvious that this document came from the British Government - the citation says so. The additional text in the article "according to the British Government" implies that the statement is subject to dispute. For example, it would be in order to write "According to the British Government, most islanders accept British rule , but according to the Argentine Government, most islanders would prefer Argentine rule " (assuming of course that a reputable source argues the Argentine case in this way). Until and unless an authoritative source puts forward an argument that contradicts the argument put forward by the British Governemnt, this additional phrase is redundant. Martinvl (talk) 05:51, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The point is not explicitly disputed by the Argentine government. The Argentine government position is that the views of the islanders don't matter: they bring up the expulsion myth (that the British expelled the islanders in January 1833 only for them to swim back to meet Darwin in March).

It's pretty trivial to find sources that verify the point without turning to the British government. It's not a point made by Argentine sources, probably because it damages the Argentine case for sovereignty. Pfainuk talk 06:42, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Falklands War deaths

The problem in the penultimate paragraph of this section was not only grammar but also, and more importantly, the figures. I have substituted phrasing and figures from the article "Falklands War", which - as a more specialist article - seemed more likely to be accurate. If however these figures are wrong, they now need to be corrected in both articles. --Wikiain (talk) 00:31, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

The figure of 258 killed on the British side includes 3 Falklanders. I've corrected your edit. Justin talk 00:35, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

As an aside its worth keeping on your watchlist, people are always tinkering with the figures. Early publications often had incorrect figures and they're frequently substituted. Thanks. Justin talk 00:39, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Justin. I am not seeking disagreement in any dimension, but the contrary: this seems to be a "citation needed" situation. There might also be legitimate differences according to each side's records. Separately from that: a difference between "British" generally and British military/civilian does seem to me to be important and I would think should not be an issue between the two sides. --Wikiain (talk) 08:35, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

No that isn't the case; there aren't differences between each side's records. For some time after the war a number of early reports persisted which had incorrect figures. Early references get quoted and "correct" the figures. As some of these are still in print, its an ongoing problem. The current text is sourced from Freedman, the official British histories, which both sides accept as authorative. The sources do include civilian deaths on both sides, there were 2 civilians killed on the Belgrano for example. I didn't for one second think your edit was a problem btw just to make that plain. I'm glad someone else takes an interest in keeping the article accurate, as I said the figures are always being tinkered with. Justin talk 13:27, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

No worries - my concern with "disagreement" was with the POV disputes on this page. Thank you for the good work! --Wikiain (talk) 15:34, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

No worries, stick around. The Falklands have a fascinating history and untangling the various claims and counterclaims is interesting work. There is actually quite a good atmosphere here and the Brits/Argentines generally do work well together in mutual respect. I know some people find this quite surprising but its an example of how well wikipedia can work. Justin talk 22:03, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

That's great, Justin. I was a Brit at the time of the War, although I now live elsewhere. I acknowledge the mutual respect that has emerged from both sides, so very different from some of the British press at the time. But let's leave this nice thread now. --Wikiain (talk) 11:49, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Visit of Charles Darwin in March 1833

I think that the notes made by Darwin concerning his visit to the island of West Falkland for several days in March 1833 is of interest to readers and should be retained. It is of interest because Darwin is a highly celebrated and respected source on ecology of which he makes interesting observations about the ecological state of the islands at the beginning of British rule in 1833. Also, because Darwin visited two months after British rule had been formally established his accounts of the political situation are enlightening and of genuine interest to the readers. He states in Voyage of the Beagle that;

• From discovery until the independence of Argentina in 1816 the islands were uninhabited by man.
• In 1816 formal ownership of the islands was transferred from Spain to the newly independent United Provinces of South America (Argentina).
• Shortly after the islands had been transferred to Argentina the islands were "sold" to a "private individual" who used the islands as a penal colony to which Argentina sent exiled convicts.
• The islands were used as such from 1816 until British rule began in January 1833.
• In March 1833 "rather more than half" of the population of the islands were the former-criminal residents of the ex-penal colony who had been exiled to the islands by the Argentinian government. Their status under British rule was unclear but presumably they were Argentinian nationals with leave to remain in a British overseas territory.
• The "Englishman left in charge of the flag" (e.g. the Governor) after British occupation began in January 1833 was "consequently murdered". This is confusing because this person should logically be William Dickson - who was born in Dublin, Ireland. Perhaps he was Anglo-Irish. Whatever the case he had been murdered after January 1833 and before March 1833 when Darwin arrived.
• At the time of his visit the native species of Fox was common in West Falkland but almost extinct in East Falkland. In his view it was doomed.
• He was guided around West Falkland by men he calls gauchos who were native born in the islands.
• In West Falkland there were large herds of feral cattle and horses which the gaucho population used for food.

These details are of real interest to the reader who will note that since 1833 much has changed. In my view the edits should not be excluded from the article. It should be clearly stated that these were the observations of Charles Darwin in 1833 but he is a good, reliable and enlightening source on what is otherwise a very murky period in the islands history. Please do not delete the edits I have made, let us discuss their merits here.James Frankcom (talk) 15:27, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Dickson wasn't the Governor, he was the senior representative at the time Onslow left in January 1833 and was asked to fly the flag when ships visited the harbour. The leader was Vernet's deputy Matthew Brisbane who arrived back in March 1833 to take leadership of Vernet's settlement. His arrival is documented by Fitzroy. Naming Dickson as Governor is WP:OR, the first Governor was Moody in 1842. There are many incorrect facts in what you state above, the Gauchos who took Darwin around were not native born, they were taken there by Vernet in 1828. Darwin wasn't shown around West Falkland it was East Falkland, there was no presence on West Falkland until much later. The herds of feral cattle were on East Falkland, particularly what is now known as Lafonia. In fact so many of your basic facts are just plain wrong so I'm about to revert those edits. Wee Curry Monster talk 15:34, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I have the book here in front of me so I dispute what you are saying. Let us not get into a highly tedious wiki edit war. Wait a minute. Lets confirm the details then amend....James Frankcom (talk) 15:38, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I have "undone" your rather rash delete of what I had added and I ask you politely and amicably to allow a little time to discuss the facts. I think details of Darwin's visits are interesting to the reader because the islands have changed markedly since his visit.

1. You are probably correct about Dickson. As Darwin says he was merely "left in charge of the flag" and not governor. What do you mean by "leader" (Vernet)?
2. Where is your evidence that the gauchos were taken there by Vernet in 1828?
3. You are correct, he did visit East Falkland island and as such the cattle and horse he observed were on East Falkland, not West. A simple mistake for which I apologise.

I shall amend the edit I made to reflect this. I welcome your comments, please try and by nice because Misplaced Pages becomes so tedious when everyone is rude.James Frankcom (talk) 15:46, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

The settlement on East Falkland was established by Vernet in 1828, all prior attempts to do so failed. Thats why I know they weren't native born. That aside, the onus is actually on you to provide a cite to support the edit you wish to make. May I draw your attention to WP:BRD and in particular the response to a revert, which is to discuss the edit you propose not to revert again. If you wish to amicably discuss the matter, the place to do so is here on the talk page, and it is not helped by labelling a revert that removes a cascade of erronous information as "rash". Wee Curry Monster talk 16:50, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

To which I'd also had, the details you propose to add are too much detail for an overview and I think you'll find they're already in History of the Falkland Islands - an article I expanded about 3 years ago. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:51, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

There is that. There's also the fact that almost all of them are inaccurate. No, a colony didn't spring from nowhere in 1816. No, Spain didn't hand over territory to a country that (in their view) didn't even legally exist. And one rather assumes that Darwin would have mentioned being guided around the islands by toddlers, and indeed the séances that would have been required to speak to Brisbane had he already been killed by the time Darwin arrived.

That fact that Darwin mentioned something does not make it so relevant that it has to be reported, regardless of relevance, context or accuracy. Pfainuk talk 18:37, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

For info,Darwin visited twice, March 1833 and again in 1834. Brisbane returned in March 1833, co-incident with Darwin's first visit. Brisbane was murdered in August 1833, prior to the second visit. Wee Curry Monster talk 21:41, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

IP Edit War Threat

Please stop the edit warring. Falkland's topic have a good working relationshp between Argentine and British editors. We will discuss reasonably and amicably any NPOV concerns but will seek admin intervention for disruptive behaviour. Please see WP:BRD. Wee Curry Monster talk 21:50, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Would it not be appropriate to head this sections "Jewett's and Vernet's settlements". All the sources agree that these two men headed settlements on the islands. What is debateable is the extent to which the powers of the day supported these settlements or claimed sovereignty over the area. I believe that the heading that I propose is in line with WP:NPOV. Martinvl (talk) 15:00, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

It would however be inaccurate. Jewett never settled there. I actually previously titled those sections Luis Vernet's Enterprise, it being neutral and avoiding the fact that Vernet played both sides against the middle. However, I was accused of attempting to play down the Argentine element. I don't disagree with your will-intentioned attempt to find a neutral ground but would suggest you'll find it somewhat of a minefield - if you'll pardon the pun. Plus the IP editor is I believe a sock of an editor well known here for tendentious argument from about 3 years ago. Wee Curry Monster talk 15:41, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Can it be changed to read "Argentine colonial aspirations and settlements" or something? That would be a compromise. The IP is trying to force his own POV onto what he or she sees as a non-NPOV section heading, which is ridicules. About the subject, one most certainly did settle there, but his settlement was destroyed by irate American forces... --Τασουλα (Shalom!) (talk) 23:52, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

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